ECT The OT & NT doctrine of the remnant and finality of judgement

I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Pardon my overlooking Is 10:22,23 (Rom 9:27) as much as I have. Here are the basic declarations:

1, it does not matter how large Israel becomes
2, only the remnant that has faith will be saved
3, the judgement of God on it (possibly the whole earth) is coming relatively soon (even for Isaiah's times)
4, the judgment mentioned will be final (which is why I'm inclined to think that #3 means judgement on Israel). Further on this item is the next quote by Paul, of Is 1:9. That surely is only about Israel, so it is likely #3 is only about Israel.
 
D

Danoh

New member
The problem with your above is that it cherry picks...

You mention Paul's mention of
..

Isaiah 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

And you do so towards proving your ideas are right ones.

The fact is that Paul is aware of the balance of that in Isaiah...

1:24 Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Chapter Two continues on that...

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

That has never happened.

Your problem is your failure to prove that 70AD was the end of God's UNconditional land promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Neither of whom ever possessed that land promised; including the thousands upon thousands who both were born, and died, in Egypt during Israel's centuries in captivity prior to their Exodus.

As the Lord said to the Israelites of His day concerning this very issue...

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
Danoh said:
The problem with your above is that it cherry picks...

You mention Paul's mention of
..

Isaiah 1:9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

And you do so towards proving your ideas are right ones.

The fact is that Paul is aware of the balance of that in Isaiah...

1:24 Therefore saith the LORD, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies: 1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin: 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city. 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

Chapter Two continues on that...

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.

That has never happened.

Your problem is your failure to prove that 70AD was the end of God's UNconditional land promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Neither of whom ever possessed that land promised; including the thousands upon thousands who both were born, and died, in Egypt during Israel's centuries in captivity prior to their Exodus.

As the Lord said to the Israelites of His day concerning this very issue...

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Click to expand...



In the resurrection, there won't be 'land' as we know it, just like there isn't marriage.

Blame the cherry picking on Paul. You obviously know more about the OT than he does.
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
jamie said:
Will we inherit the universe with Jesus Christ?

That would be a lot of land.
Click to expand...



Yep, that is what its saying in Rom 4 when discussing Abraham's inheritance and in other passages. Not Judea. But the NHNE is not going to be physical as we know it. God and Christ are the temple and the light, for there will not be a sun. We will be in glorified states not as we are now.
 
jamie

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Interplanner said:
Yep, that is what its saying in Rom 4 when discussing Abraham's inheritance and in other passages. Not Judea. But the NHNE is not going to be physical as we know it. God and Christ are the temple and the light, for there will not be a sun. We will be in glorified states not as we are now.
Click to expand...

The new heaven and earth happen after this planet is burned to a crisp.
 
D

Danoh

New member
Interplanner said:
btw, "Saved" in the NT never means to restore a people to their land.
Click to expand...

Just a few of the many passages you liar...

Zephaniah 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

Zechariah 8:7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

Zechariah 8:13 And it shall come to pass, that as ye were a curse among the heathen, O house of Judah, and house of Israel; so will I save you, and ye shall be a blessing: fear not, but let your hands be strong.

Zechariah 9:16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

Zechariah 10:6 And I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph, and I will bring them again to place them; for I have mercy upon them: and they shall be as though I had not cast them off: for I am the LORD their God, and will hear them.
 
TweetyBird

TweetyBird

New member
Only a remnant of Israel is saved, not the entire nation.

Zech 13
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Jeremiah 31:7
For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

2 Chronicles 30:6
So the posts went with the letters from the king and his princes throughout all Israel and Judah, and according to the commandment of the king, saying, Ye children of Israel, turn again unto the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, and he will return to the remnant of you, that are escaped out of the hand of the kings of Assyria.

2 Chronicles 34:9
And when they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites that kept the doors had gathered of the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, and of all the remnant of Israel, and of all Judah and Benjamin; and they returned to Jerusalem.

Isaiah 10:20
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isaiah 10:22
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Isaiah 11:16
And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Jeremiah 31:7
For thus saith the Lord; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Lord, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.

Micah 2:12
I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

Micah 5:3
Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore as I live, saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah, even the breeding of nettles, and saltpits, and a perpetual desolation: the residue of my people shall spoil them, and the remnant of my people shall possess them.

Zephaniah 3:13
The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Nehemiah 11:20
And the residue of Israel, of the priests, and the Levites, were in all the cities of Judah, every one in his inheritance.

Isaiah 28:5
In that day shall the Lord of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

Ezekiel 9:8
And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

Ezekiel 48:21
And the residue shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof.

Acts 15:17
that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
 
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