Refuting the Fallacious Doctrine of Believe To Be In Christ

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Samie

New member
The brand of gospel popularly preached by most Christian preachers tells people to believe so they can be In Christ. This presupposes that people start out in life NOT In Christ, or APART from Him. And for people to be In Christ or part of His Body, they must first believe. So, unless people believe, they could not be part of the Body of Christ.

But if, prior to believing, people are NOT In Christ or are APART from Him, how could they do the act of believing when Christ Himself said that man can do NOTHING when APART from Him? If Christ said man can do NOTHING when APART from Him, why do preachers contradict Him and instead preach that man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Him?

The words of Jesus Himself refute this doctrine of "Believe to be In Christ".

Will anyone who preach "Believe to be In Christ" dare defend this fallacious doctrine? Please refrain from verbal abuse and instead turn to Scriptures in defending your position.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Samie said:
The brand of gospel popularly preached by most Christian preachers tells people to believe so they can be In Christ. This presupposes that people start out in life NOT In Christ, or APART from Him. And for people to be In Christ or part of His Body, they must first believe. So, unless people believe, they could not be part of the Body of Christ.

But if, prior to believing, people are NOT In Christ or are APART from Him, how could they do the act of believing when Christ Himself said that man can do NOTHING when APART from Him? If Christ said man can do NOTHING when APART from Him, why do preachers contradict Him and instead preach that man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Him?

The words of Jesus Himself refute this doctrine of "Believe to be In Christ".

Will anyone who preach "Believe to be In Christ" dare defend this fallacious doctrine? Please refrain from verbal abuse and instead turn to Scriptures in defending your position.
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You are wrong.

We are born into the world as sinners, Romans 5:12. Totally and completely alienated from God.

When we receive God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8. We are born again, 1 Peter 1:22, 23, and become children of God.

God now sees us as complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness, Romans 3:26 and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing.

Paul said, "That I might be found IN HIM, not having my own righteousness which is of the law" Philippians 3:9.

You need to do more Bible study so that you know what you are talking about.
 
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Samie

New member
Robert Pate said:
You are wrong.
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But Jesus can NEVER be wrong:

Jesus said: APART from Me, man can do NOTHING.

Robert said: APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Christ.

Since Jesus is always correct and you are opposing His words, then you are blatantly wrong.

Robert Pate said:
We are born into the world as sinners, Romans 5:12. Totally and completely alienated from God.
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Misuse and abuse of Scriptures. The verse does not say people are born sinners. Instead it says, all have sinned. Sinning is done AFTER one is born; NOT before nor during birth. Scriptures say God made man upright or righteous, and after birth, then they seek out many schemes. Eccl 7:29

Robert Pate said:
When we receive God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:8. We are born again, 1 Peter 1:22, 23, and become children of God.
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God has begotten us again through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead (1 Pet 1:3), NOT through our receiving God's great free gift, as you teach.

You are contradicting your own false doctrine. You said people are born dead in sin, yet they can receive God's free gift. How can they receive while dead?

Robert Pate said:
God now sees us as complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness, Romans 3:26 and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing.
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Partly correct, but poisoned. "Trusting" is an act one cannot do APART from Christ. It can only be done when one is ALREADY In Him, part of His Body; not before one is In Him, as you teach.

Robert Pate said:
Paul said, "That I might be found IN HIM, not having my own righteousness which is of the law" Philippians 3:9.

You need to do more Bible study so that you know what you are talking about.
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I have through Scriptures refuted what you have just posted. You haven't refuted my position which is based in the words of Jesus Himself: APART from Me, you can do NOTHING.

What you must do is show how a person while APART from Christ can do SOMETHING. But that is an exercise in futility.
 
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Samie

New member
Robert Pate adopted the teaching of Augustine that people are born spiritually dead in sin. But that doctrine is false.

Did God that same day Adam sinned just fold His hands and did NOTHING to save Adam, just like a father doing nothing but watch his child drown? No sir. God, that same day Adam sinned, implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10), and saved Adam, reinstating him to his pre-fall status. That salvific act of God caused Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and made Adam to be In Christ the same day he sinned. With Adam In Christ, all his descendants are born In Christ, instead of born In Sin, as Augustine taught and believed on by both Calvinists and Arminians.

But only overcomers will finally make it to heaven and eternal life. Rev 3:5; 21; 20:15; 21:27.

This is why God commands every man everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), because people - being born in Christ - are capable of overcoming evil with good. Why would God ask all to repent and then punish those who won't, if not all are capable of repenting?
 
WonderfulLordJesus

WonderfulLordJesus

New member
Well, I, for one, am inspired, rattled to the core and can just feel the controversy and anger flowing from your loins, like molten hot lava to the roiling sea of man's discontent. And it gives me pause, as many the thread in Religion, brings to remembrance: I was going to shop the web for a DVD set of the old Rocky and Bullwinkle show. Thanks for the reminder!
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Samie said:
The brand of gospel popularly preached by most Christian preachers tells people to believe so they can be In Christ. This presupposes that people start out in life NOT In Christ, or APART from Him. And for people to be In Christ or part of His Body, they must first believe. So, unless people believe, they could not be part of the Body of Christ.

But if, prior to believing, people are NOT In Christ or are APART from Him, how could they do the act of believing when Christ Himself said that man can do NOTHING when APART from Him? If Christ said man can do NOTHING when APART from Him, why do preachers contradict Him and instead preach that man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Him?

The words of Jesus Himself refute this doctrine of "Believe to be In Christ".

Will anyone who preach "Believe to be In Christ" dare defend this fallacious doctrine? Please refrain from verbal abuse and instead turn to Scriptures in defending your position.
Click to expand...

As far as I am concerned, the doctrine "To be in Christ" is not fallacious because by the grace of HaShem, we the Jews are in "Christ" by nature. Why do I say so? Because "Christ" in Greek means the Anointed One of the Lord." Now, if you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what "Christ" means; the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel, the Son of God. (Exodus 4:22,23)That's when the Lord said, "Israel is My Son; let My son go that he may serve Me."
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Samie said:
The brand of gospel popularly preached by most Christian preachers tells people to believe so they can be In Christ. This presupposes that people start out in life NOT In Christ, or APART from Him. And for people to be In Christ or part of His Body, they must first believe. So, unless people believe, they could not be part of the Body of Christ.

But if, prior to believing, people are NOT In Christ or are APART from Him, how could they do the act of believing when Christ Himself said that man can do NOTHING when APART from Him? If Christ said man can do NOTHING when APART from Him, why do preachers contradict Him and instead preach that man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Him?

The words of Jesus Himself refute this doctrine of "Believe to be In Christ".

Will anyone who preach "Believe to be In Christ" dare defend this fallacious doctrine? Please refrain from verbal abuse and instead turn to Scriptures in defending your position.
Click to expand...

Why would Jesus try to refute the doctrine "to be in Christ" when he himself as a Jew was in Christ throughout the 33 years of his life? It would not make sense.
 
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Samie

New member
Ben Masada said:
As far as I am concerned, the doctrine "To be in Christ" is not fallacious
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Of course, why would it be? It's the doctrine where people NEED to FIRST BELIEVE before they can be In Christ, summarized "Believe To Be In Christ" that is fallacious.
 
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Samie

New member
Ben Masada said:
Why would Jesus try to refute the doctrine "to be in Christ" when he himself as a Jew was in Christ throughout the 33 years of his life? It would not make sense.
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Of course.

And it's not what I'm saying. Read the OP, if you haven't; read it again, if you already have.

What Jesus is against is the teaching that people can do SOMETHING while APART from Him, as many preachers teach, because it's directly against what He taught that APART from Him, man can do NOTHING.
 
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Ben Masada

New member
Samie said:
Of course.

And it's not what I'm saying. Read the OP, if you haven't; read it again, if you already have.

What Jesus is against is the teaching that people can do SOMETHING while APART from Him, as many preachers teach, because it's directly against what He taught that APART from Him, man can do NOTHING.
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Now, that, I don't agree with you! What you have described is no different from a robot. That's not what HaShem espected of us. When HaShem granted us with the attribute of Freewill, He expected us to use it and make our own choices. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20) Therefore, this that apart from the Lord man cannot do anything is negative and lacks all spirituality.
 
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Samie

New member
Ben Masada said:
Now, that, I don't agree with you! What you have described is no different from a robot. That's not what HaShem espected of us. When HaShem granted us with the attribute of Freewill, He expected us to use it and make our own choices. (Deuteronomy 30:19,20) Therefore, this that apart from the Lord man cannot do anything is negative and lacks all spirituality.
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I can't force you to be right, Ben.

Have you read this post?
 
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Samie

New member
Samie said:
Robert Pate adopted the teaching of Augustine that people are born spiritually dead in sin. But that doctrine is false.

Did God that same day Adam sinned just fold His hands and did NOTHING to save Adam, just like a father doing nothing but watch his child drown? No sir. God, that same day Adam sinned, implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10), and saved Adam, reinstating him to his pre-fall status. That salvific act of God caused Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and made Adam to be In Christ the same day he sinned. With Adam In Christ, all his descendants are born In Christ, instead of born In Sin, as Augustine taught and believed on by both Calvinists and Arminians.

But only overcomers will finally make it to heaven and eternal life. Rev 3:5; 21; 20:15; 21:27.

This is why God commands every man everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), because people - being born in Christ - are capable of overcoming evil with good. Why would God ask all to repent and then punish those who won't, if not all are capable of repenting?
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Unanswered by proponents of the false doctrine "Believe to be In Christ".
 
Epoisses

Epoisses

New member
Samie said:
The brand of gospel popularly preached by most Christian preachers tells people to believe so they can be In Christ. This presupposes that people start out in life NOT In Christ, or APART from Him. And for people to be In Christ or part of His Body, they must first believe. So, unless people believe, they could not be part of the Body of Christ.

But if, prior to believing, people are NOT In Christ or are APART from Him, how could they do the act of believing when Christ Himself said that man can do NOTHING when APART from Him? If Christ said man can do NOTHING when APART from Him, why do preachers contradict Him and instead preach that man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be In Him?

The words of Jesus Himself refute this doctrine of "Believe to be In Christ".

Will anyone who preach "Believe to be In Christ" dare defend this fallacious doctrine? Please refrain from verbal abuse and instead turn to Scriptures in defending your position.
Click to expand...

Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31

The bible refutes Samie again.
 
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Samie

New member
Epoisses said:
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
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Correct. Believing comes AFTER one is already In Christ Who said APART from Him man can do NOTHING: he can't even believe.

IOW, Jesus refutes Epo.

Believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.
 
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Samie

New member
Epoisses said:
Paul says all people Jews and Gentiles alike are dead in sin (Rom. 3).
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You said that. Don't ascribe it to Paul who said all died with Christ and were made alive together with Christ (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6) and were fashioned into His Body on the cross (Eph 2:11-19).

We have NOTHING to do with our being In Christ. It was all grace. You are teaching works-based salvation. "Believe to be In Christ" is a false doctrine.
 
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Samie

New member
Robert Pate [and Epoisses, too] adopted the teaching of Augustine that people are born spiritually dead in sin. But that doctrine is false.

Did God that same day Adam sinned just fold His hands and did NOTHING to save Adam, just like a father doing nothing but watch his child drown? No sir. God, that same day Adam sinned, implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10), and saved Adam, reinstating him to his pre-fall status. That salvific act of God cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and made Adam to be In Christ the same day he sinned. With Adam In Christ, all his descendants are born In Christ, instead of born In Sin, as Augustine taught and believed on by both Calvinists and Arminians.

And to the enigma of Universalists, only overcomers will finally make it to heaven and eternal life. Rev 3:5; 21; 20:15; 21:27.

This is why God commands every man everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30), because people - being born in Christ - are capable of overcoming evil with good. Why would God ask all to repent and then punish those who won't, if not all are capable of repenting?
Click to expand...
Still remains unanswered by proponents of the false doctrine "Believe To Be In Christ".
 
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