The Law, Punishment, Christianity, and Forgiveness

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

We know that Law exists. There is a difference between right and wrong. There are things we are supposed to do and things we are not supposed to do. These are positive and negative commands.

According to the Law there are punishments. That is, it is possible to be disciplined for something you have done wrong, whether it was doing something or not doing something.

In Christianity we recognize that we have been forgiven our sins (wrongdoing). We are to forgive each other too. Then what is the role of Law in correction related to wrongdoing? If we have been forgiven by God and others have forgiven us (for who besides Jesus has never done anything wrong? No one (nobody).) then can we say there should be no punishment? Or, does the Law still call for punishment even after forgiveness?

I have communicated about God's Law, the Law of Moses, and the law of Christ, for years now here on Theology Online. Very recently the subject of civil law came up. I have heard of civil law but I don't know what it is. Is civil law different from God's Law? My understanding is that some of God's Law has been incorporated into civil law. I live in the United States. I observe Judaism and Christianity. I have never been to Israel. But my understanding is that the Law of the nation of Israel is the Law of Moses with the old covenant... or what is it in the new covenant? So now how do we obey God and His commands, even in Christ... and what is the place of law in the life of the believer? I see no need to avoid the law. But what happens to the law when there is forgiveness? That is, are the punishments found in the law not carried out when there is forgiveness?

I have explained here the context for my question as I see it.

Romans 6:23 NASB - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

Once I was witnessing, sharing the gospel by handing out tracts, and one person wanted to talk to me. He had done some things wrong but never been punished for it (as far as I could tell). I wanted to preach the gospel. If he wanted to make right what he had done wrong how could he do so? It caused me to think about if while preaching the gospel I should tell a person to turn themselves in or help them know how to go back to those they have wronged. It may seem like an impossible task and it very well may be, to try to find everyone you have ever wronged. Is the word here restitution? And, is there a punishment for sin even after a person has apologized or paid someone back monetarily for what they have done, stolen, taken? What does repentance to God look like when we are repenting and wanting to do right and make amends for more than feeling bad about what we have done? Should a person seek forgiveness and turn themselves in either way? Should they not turn themselves in if they want to first make things right with others?

Is this the responsibility of the preacher? What can we do?

aCultureWarrior · Jan 26, 2016

Untellectual said:
We know that Law exists. There is a difference between right and wrong. There are things we are supposed to do and things we are not supposed to do. These are positive and negative commands.

According to the Law there are punishments. That is, it is possible to be disciplined for something you have done wrong, whether it was doing something or not doing something.

In Christianity we recognize that we have been forgiven our sins (wrongdoing). We are to forgive each other too. Then what is the role of Law in correction related to wrongdoing? If we have been forgiven by God and others have forgiven us (for who besides Jesus has never done anything wrong? No one (nobody).) then can we say there should be no punishment? Or, does the Law still call for punishment even after forgiveness?

I have communicated about God's Law, the Law of Moses, and the law of Christ, for years now here on Theology Online. Very recently the subject of civil law came up. I have heard of civil law but I don't know what it is. Is civil law different from God's Law? My understanding is that some of God's Law has been incorporated into civil law. I live in the United States. I observe Judaism and Christianity. I have never been to Israel. But my understanding is that the Law of the nation of Israel is the Law of Moses with the old covenant... or what is it in the new covenant? So now how do we obey God and His commands, even in Christ... and what is the place of law in the life of the believer? I see no need to avoid the law. But what happens to the law when there is forgiveness? That is, are the punishments found in the law not carried out when there is forgiveness?

I have explained here the context for my question as I see it.

Romans 6:23 NASB - 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

If I'm reading your OP correctly:

Don't confuse laws that are necessary to keep societies from becoming chaotic vs Jesus' grace that allows us eternal salvation. In other words: Jesus (depending what's in your heart) might forgive you for murdering someone, but that doesn't mean that you should go unpunished in civil society.

Also keep in mind that you will reap what you sow. God will/might (again, depending what's in your heart) forgive you, but that doesn't mean that He won't punish you (the long time drug addict who has accepted Christ still will have to deal with the abuse that he put on his body after all of those years of drug use).

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
If I'm reading your OP correctly:

Don't confuse laws that are necessary to keep societies from becoming chaotic vs Jesus' grace that allows us eternal salvation. In other words: Jesus (depending what's in your heart) might forgive you for murdering someone, but that doesn't mean that you should go unpunished in civil society.

Also keep in mind that you will reap what you sow. God will/might (again, depending what's in your heart) forgive you, but that doesn't mean that He won't punish you (the long time drug addict who has accepted Christ still will have to deal with the abuse that he put on his body after all of those years of drug use).

I believe you are speaking of societies in general. That is, society has Christian believers and those who are not Christian as well. There is always consequences to the decisions we make, our wrong choices. But there is forgiveness in Jesus Christ too. I believe we are saying this is not for the purpose of escaping punishment, because all wrong doing must be punished. In the end, all is taken into account by God. In the meantime we do have courts. What can we do to make things right with others? What is a just judge to do? Not everything done ends up before a judge. But if there is a judge of a case we are to do what is required of the judge by the law.

When is a person forgiven? Forgiveness seems to be much different than just judgment handed down by a judge. That is, a person may be forgiven and still be judged rightly according to the law.

aCultureWarrior · Jan 26, 2016

Untellectual said:
When is a person forgiven? Forgiveness seems to be much different than just judgment handed down by a judge. That is, a person may be forgiven and still be judged rightly according to the law.

When someone breaks a civil law (burglarizes a store) and is caught, tried and convicted, he is forgiven after he pays his debt to society (jail time).

Again: If you forgive someone (in civil society) without holding them accountable for their actions, you're breeding chaos.

I often hear Christians doing that (not wanting to press charges for a crime committed against them). They're not helping the perpetrator because he isn't punished, nor society at large.

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
When someone breaks a civil law (burglarizes a store) and is caught, tried and convicted, he is forgiven after he pays his debt to society (jail time).

Again: If you forgive someone (in civil society) without holding them accountable for their actions, you're breeding chaos.

I often hear Christians doing that (not wanting to press charges for a crime committed against them). They're not helping the perpetrator because he isn't punished, nor society at large.

Is there a difference between a person forgiving someone, being forgiven "by the law" (meaning, you are forgiven once your time has been served or your fine has been paid), and being forgiven by society?

aCultureWarrior · Jan 26, 2016

Untellectual said:
Is there a difference between a person forgiving someone, being forgiven "by the law" (meaning, you are forgiven once your time has been served or your fine has been paid), and being forgiven by society?

If I'm reading your post correctly, that would be up to the individual.

Again: Once a convicted criminal has served his sentence, he has "paid his debt to society" and is forgiven for his past criminal behavior.

However, that doesn't mean that the woman who was brutally raped by the monster has forgiven him.

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
If I'm reading your post correctly, that would be up to the individual.

Again: Once a convicted criminal has served his sentence, he has "paid his debt to society" and is forgiven for his past criminal behavior.

However, that doesn't mean that the woman who was brutally raped by the monster has forgiven him.

This makes sense.

Here are two things I am thinking of.

Unforgiveness. Even when a person says they have forgiven someone they may still have un-forgiveness in their heart. They may regret having forgiven a person. After they have forgiven someone they may feel now there is nothing they can do. When a person has been wronged do they have a right to press charges? Each of us may want to forgive, or may struggle after we have forgiven someone whether we verbally communicated our forgiveness to them or not.

We are called to forgive. Scripture says that if we do not forgive someone or we do not forgive someone from the heart that we are wrong, even that we might not be forgiven by God.

aCultureWarrior · Jan 26, 2016

Untellectual said:
This makes sense.

Here are two things I am thinking of.

Unforgiveness. Even when a person says they have forgiven someone they may still have un-forgiveness in their heart. They may regret having forgiven a person. After they have forgiven someone they may feel now there is nothing they can do. When a person has been wronged do they have a right to press charges? Each of us may want to forgive, or may struggle after we have forgiven someone whether we verbally communicated our forgiveness to them or not.

We are called to forgive. Scripture says that if we do not forgive someone or we do not forgive someone from the heart that we are wrong, even that we might not be forgiven by God.

It's much easier to forgive someone when the victim knows that society has lived up to it's proper role of punishing the criminal.

You've probably noticed that there are parties outside of prisons before someone, who has spent 20 years on death row for brutally murdering one or more people, is executed. It's closure to those people who sat frustrated for 20 years knowing that justice wasn't being served. Whether they forgive that murderer after his execution is between them and God.

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
It's much easier to forgive someone when the victim knows that society has lived up to it's proper role of punishing the criminal.

You've probably noticed that there are parties outside of prisons before someone, who has spent 20 years on death row for brutally murdering one or more people, is executed. It's closure to those people who sat frustrated for 20 years knowing that justice wasn't being served. Whether they forgive that murderer after his execution is between them and God.

So forgiveness to spite someone is one forgiveness different from forgiveness from the heart.

Then the question is what is true justice. Such as you have brought up with the subject of the death penalty and in the case of murder.

aCultureWarrior · Jan 26, 2016

Untellectual said:
So forgiveness to spite someone is one forgiveness different from forgiveness from the heart.

I think you're using the word "spite" wrong when it comes to whether someone forgives another who has committed a heinous crime against he or his family.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spite

Then the question is what is true justice. Such as you have brought up with the subject of the death penalty and in the case of murder.

It depends on the crime committed. The important thing to remember is that even if you forgive someone in your heart that has committed a crime that should be punished by society, doesn't mean that he or she should go unpunished.

Jacob · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
I think you're using the word "spite" wrong when it comes to whether someone forgives another who has committed a heinous crime against he or his family.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/spite

I see what you are saying. I suppose what I was seeing or talking about is when a person says they forgive someone when they really don't, whether it is known that they don't or not (forgiveness has to do with the one doing the forgiving not just the one being forgiven). A person may feel justified in what they are doing, whether they want to torment the individual "with forgiveness" or not. We should all forgive from the heart. Some people need time to forgive. The person who has committed a crime has no right to demand forgiveness, even if the person they are requesting forgiveness from is a Christian.

It depends on the crime committed. The important thing to remember is that even if you forgive someone in your heart that has committed a crime that should be punished by society, doesn't mean that he or she should go unpunished.

Correct.

And, a person who needs forgiveness may or may not receive it.

Is there ever a case where there should not be punishment (for wrongdoing), society or not?

You spoke of civil society and (different from this in that it is plural at least?) societies.

Eric h · Jan 26, 2016

aCultureWarrior said:
It's much easier to forgive someone when the victim knows that society has lived up to it's proper role of punishing the criminal.

I believe there are many cases when true justice can never happen. I listened to a man who had been stabbed in the back, as a result, he has been paralysed from the waist down, for the last twenty seven years. His assailant served four years in prison, then walked out on his own two feet.

True justice would not be that both should be crippled, true justice would be that neither were crippled for life.

The man in the wheelchair said he fights two diseases, being crippled, and the greater disease is fighting the anger he has against his attacker. He is coming to terms with forgiving this man, he has had to overcome real hate and anger. He now goes round the UK giving lectures on forgiveness.

You've probably noticed that there are parties outside of prisons before someone, who has spent 20 years on death row for brutally murdering one or more people, is executed. It's closure to those people who sat frustrated for 20 years knowing that justice wasn't being served. Whether they forgive that murderer after his execution is between them and God.

The execution of a prisoner is not going to bring your loved one back, grief and forgiveness are two separate issues.

The Law, Punishment, Christianity, and Forgiveness

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Eric h

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