Theology Club: The Mystery: One Lump, or Two :)

SaulToPaul said:

Danoh the Great,

The Romans would have been no different than a Jew in a synagogue that Paul visited who believed Paul's message that Jesus is the Christ.

They would have been in the Olive Tree.

But, they still needed the gospel of Christ to enter the Body.

I concur with sister heir, 103.9%.

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STP, I thought I'd reply on this in its own thread.

In the above, you and Heir were responding to our difference in understanding as to the status of the Romans Paul wrote Romans to, before Paul wrote to them.

If I understand correctly, your view is that they were proselytes. My own view is that they were already members of the Body of Christ.

I find it fascinating that although we both hold to an Acts 9 Perspective, we might not come to agreement on this issue.

I believe part of that has to do with where we each look at such things from to begin with. You noted elsewhere to someone, that, where Bible interpretation is concerned, "It is an art in that it needs to be practiced, and it is a science it that rules apply" [sounds like a B. Lee, quote, lol, but nevertheless, an apt one].

If our point of origin differs, we can point things out to one another til the cows come home to no avail. Absent of an understanding of each side's overall basis in origin, to begin with, both sides stand a stronger chance of not only continuing to differ, but of continuing to grow further apart in their understanding of other things as well.

Paul warned Timothy of the need for him to be diligent to keep his eye on the kind of departure in one's point of origin that can kind of slowly, and gradually creep in, to end up one at some new point of origin, 2 Timothy 2:16, 17.

The solution, he had reminded Timothy - "Remember" - and, "Of these things put" your hearers "in remembrance" - "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel: Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound." 2 Timothy 2: 8, 9, 14.

We perhaps differ in what that passage - the very origin of Acts 9D, per Paul - is referring to.

Its significant he mentions that in the very opening of what is now laid out in Scripture as the first foundational epistle: Romans, and then again, in what is now his last instruction...to a Pastor.

Perhaps - over time, and here and there, as time allows, as well as where we might each have a thought - we might continue to explore each's originating basis to begin with.

Danoh the Great,

I do not believe that all of Romans were proselytes, just to those whom Paul said "Behold thou art called a Jew". They had been in the Olive Tree.

I have no doubt that the Romans believed that Jesus is the Christ, and their faith was well known. But you have to wonder why Paul desired to go to Rome to preach the gospel of Christ to them.

:e4e:

SaulToPaul said:

Danoh the Great,

I do not believe that all of Romans were proselytes, just to those whom Paul said "Behold thou art called a Jew". They had been in the Olive Tree.

I have no doubt that the Romans believed that Jesus is the Christ, and their faith was well known. But you have to wonder why Paul desired to go to Rome to preach the gospel of Christ to them.

:e4e:

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Perhaps it was because there was as many Jews and proselytes as members of the body or even more, and he wanted to line out the entire picture that became the "Roman Road" from both perspectives. Maybe the Jews were being over bearing as usual, and Paul wanted to ease them into seeing the righteousness that comes of faith.

SaulToPaul said:

Danoh the Great,

I do not believe that all of Romans were proselytes, just to those whom Paul said "Behold thou art called a Jew". They had been in the Olive Tree.

I have no doubt that the Romans believed that Jesus is the Christ, and their faith was well known. But you have to wonder why Paul desired to go to Rome to preach the gospel of Christ to them.

:e4e:

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My own understanding as to the sense of Romans 2:17 is that of Israel's long history of professing themselves of God, while being anything but.

You have to take that passage out of all that Paul says there against the Jew, to conclude he s referring to proselytes.

My own sense is that Paul is addressing the issue of lost Jews; of the blasphemy their conduct unbecoming one called a Jew among the Gentiles, brought on God's name, among the Gentiles Israel had been scattered to.

He is dealing with Basic Moses 101. His OT quotes are all that issue - Israel's shameful witness among the Gentiles - as he heads both Gentile and Jew to the reality that he then ties up near the latter half of Romans 3's:

9. What then? Are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

He is moving from a conviction against both before God's court, if you will, to the very issue he has been building His case back to - Romans 1's "the righteousness of God..."

When Martin Luther saw that - when he saw what that actually means - what "the righteousness of God" means there, he had to have experienced the exact same goose bump chills I am right now experiencing as I reflect on the sense of that righteousness once more!

What Paul is doing in Romans 1 - 3 is establishing the Romans in a finer understanding of "the mutual faith, bot of you and of me" - the finer details of what this "But now... righteousness of God without the Law" is all about.

As for wondering why Paul desired to preach the gospel of Christ to them; no need to wonder - his preaching of Christ was comprised of various aspects, given all that had been given him to lay out as the Apostle of God's Mystery Grace.

Romans 1's "power of God unto salvation" being one of those.

Romans 16's "able to stablish you" being another.

Paul having been ever instant in season as to who as to which, when.

SaulToPaul said:

Danoh the Great,

I do not believe that all of Romans were proselytes, just to those whom Paul said "Behold thou art called a Jew". They had been in the Olive Tree.

I have no doubt that the Romans believed that Jesus is the Christ, and their faith was well known. But you have to wonder why Paul desired to go to Rome to preach the gospel of Christ to them.

:e4e:

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We also differ with one another in our understanding of this Olive Tree issue.

My own view being much like the following, I'll just post his view:

http://www.bereanworkman.com/books/rom_phile/romans11.html

Danoh said:

We also differ with one another in our understanding of this Olive Tree issue.

My own view being much like the following, I'll just post his view:

http://www.bereanworkman.com/books/rom_phile/romans11.html

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hey thats a pretty good article(I'll bookmark it and look at it further),,before you came I made the comment "this will be the end of their MAD'ness',,,I then received neg-rep's'' for saying it,lol.(maybe the way I said it was improper,forgive me if so),,,

The issue is the same though as to the beginnings of these certain things,body of Christ,Gospel of Grace,grafting in,branches torn out ect.,,closely examining the different threads you might find one's speech with all beginning the G.O.G. in Acts 9,13,2ect. others begin the B.O.C at this same time others not ect.ect.,,,

In short though these separate names we use need separate definitions and beginning and ending points(to which apply),,but this I agree is the friction among our own in that we have the different ideas of when these began or if they are the same thing(so should be mingled).

The branches that were removed were torn out before the destruction of the temple in ad70 so as we see in scripture "if judgement began at the temple of God,ect." then they were removed before ad70 and so if this is mentioned in any of Paul,or Peter's letter's the act of removal of those branches were PRIOR to the destruction of the temple,and then the grafting also. So the destruction of the temple was the end of the events they were describing,,,

whitestone said:

hey thats a pretty good article(I'll bookmark it and look at it further),,before you came I made the comment "this will be the end of their MAD'ness',,,I then received neg-rep's'' for saying it,lol.(maybe the way I said it was improper,forgive me if so),,,

The issue is the same though as to the beginnings of these certain things,body of Christ,Gospel of Grace,grafting in,branches torn out ect.,,closely examining the different threads you might find one's speech with all beginning the G.O.G. in Acts 9,13,2ect. others begin the B.O.C at this same time others not ect.ect.,,,

In short though these separate names we use need separate definitions and beginning and ending points(to which apply),,but this I agree is the friction among our own in that we have the different ideas of when these began or if they are the same thing(so should be mingled).

The branches that were removed were torn out before the destruction of the temple in ad70 so as we see in scripture "if judgement begin at the temple of God,ect." then they were removed before ad70 and so if this is mentioned in any of Paul,or Peter's letter's the act of removal of those branches were PRIOR to the destruction of the temple,and then the grafting also. So the destruction of the temple was the end of the events they were describing,,,

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The friction will depend, not on our differences in understanding, rather; on what we make the issue when we encounter said differences with one another.

For example, STP (Saul to Paul) and I differ on some of these issues. Yet, we are agreed, we are members of His Body - that neither of us should call the other accursed in our differences.

That to do so, is to call the Lord accursed; not discerning the Lord's Body.

And what is amusing about this, is that this is my understanding of 1 Corinthians 11 and 12 as to the phrasing I have just applied to describing both of us in our exchanges with one another - for those phrases at the same time, appear to hold a different meaning for STP, as to who Paul is addressing, lol.

Now that is grace allowed its intended effectual working!

yes I agree,,it is best to discuss it all out. These subjects,do you see them the same,or different and when do you see their beginnings?

1,body of Christ
2,Gospel of Grace

I mean no offense in the manner I am asking this I just noticed it to be connected to your op,,,

Danoh said:

For example, STP (Saul to Paul) and I differ on some of these issues. Yet, we are agreed, we are members of His Body - that neither of us should call the other accursed in our differences.

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STP is a joy to study with!
He has been very patient with me, working through issues. He doesn't dictate, he listens and will go step by step with ya. And if at any time I did not see what he was getting at, we just tipped our hats and moved on hand in hand.

Tambora said:

STP is a joy to study with!
He has been very patient with me, working through issues. He doesn't dictate, he listens and will go step by step with ya. And if at any time I did not see what he was getting at, we just tipped our hats and moved on hand in hand.

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,

here is two,as Paul explained to Timothy, well known,not brawlers,ect. this is what we should do and recognize,,,,,I agree

Tambora said:

STP is a joy to study with!
He has been very patient with me, working through issues. He doesn't dictate, he listens and will go step by step with ya. And if at any time I did not see what he was getting at, we just tipped our hats and moved on hand in hand.

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I agree and he never claims I say what I haven't said or assumes I meant what I didn't mean. He's wonderful. :thumb:

whitestone said:

yes I agree,,it is best to discuss it all out. These subjects,do you see them the same,or different and when do you see their beginnings?

1,body of Christ
2,Gospel of Grace

I mean no offense in the manner I am asking this I just noticed it to be connected to your op,,,

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None taken, none intended...

I see lost Jews saved by Paul's "gospel of the uncircumcision" Gal. 2:7-9, that began after Israel (and Paul) were concluded Uncircumcised in heart and ears, by the Spirit, at Acts 7:51 per Matt. 12:30-32 - I see them as members of the Body, 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:28, that began with Paul, when he was saved while in Uncircumcision, per at Acts 9:6, Acts 20:9-23, and 1 Tim. 1:11-16.

What has been greatly misunderstood is why Paul at all, why the Mystery at all, and why a New Creature: the Body of Christ, at all?

One, this misunderstanding is due to the fact of its having been largely lost to the traditions of men, but for the pages of Scripture, all those centuries.

Two, because only after the foundation it is based on was solved for, and then applied to further study, was the answer to this question resolved.

But, as happened with Darby; those after him soon basically turned most of his findings into the last word on these issues.

Likewise with what happened with what truth those few after Darby who moved on, found.

Man ever in need to assert he knows it all; that he "in fact, got it from the head cheese himself," their followers soon turned that further light into one more example of "the last word..."

The same has happened with the KJV issue; the last "Only" findings have become the last word on the issue for many.

And so, it goes...

glorydaz said:

I agree and he never claims I say what I haven't said or assumes I meant what I didn't mean. He's wonderful. :thumb:

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Almost as wonderful as that guy, Danoh: the Andy to STP's Barney, lol

Danoh said:

Almost as wonderful as that guy, Danoh: the Andy to STP's Barney, lol

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:chuckle:

Danoh said:

Almost as wonderful as that guy, Danoh: the Andy to STP's Barney, lol

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hehe! Almost.

heir said:

You are showing a verse about the gospel of God (Romans 1) "which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures" and then a verse about Paul's gospel (Romans 16:25) "which was kept secret since the world began,..." You are SOOOOOO confused. Put down the commentary and pick up the KJ Bible! It will GREATLY help you!

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Heir, regarding your above to Jerry, as you know, you and I also differ somewhat in our understanding of that. The following is mine.

In Romans 1, Paul is asserting that he was separated unto the Gospel of God...concerning His Son; Who was promised afore by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures.

He is not asserting he was separated unto God's prophesied gospel of God concerning His Son, rather; unto the gospel of God concerning His Son that Paul was given to preach; "the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the Mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest..." Rom. 16:25.

Continuing on that assertion in Romans 1, he goes into his desired intent in writing Romans...

In the face of his having been unable to do what he had been able to do, for example, in Acts 20, at Ephesus - ground them in the mutual faith they too had been called unto, Rom. 1:7....

In absence of that, he writes Romans as his means of some spiritual gift in written form, whereby they might be established in the mutual faith both of you (they were already Mystery Body members) and of me (as was Paul).

Then, in Romans 16, he reasserts this as being the case "now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel," etc.

He is hoping to accomplish by that letter, what he had been able to accomplish in person at Ephesus even before he wrote Ephesians.

Acts 20:

17. And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18. And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19. Serving the LORD with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20. And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
21. Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

He did there the same he wanted to do at Rome, preach salvation to the lost, but also; to establish those at Rome already Body members in the finer details of their mutual faith.

Acts 20 continues...

22. And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23. Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24. But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26. Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
32. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

That was Paul's pattern - preach, teach (ordain, and move on). The teaching towards establishing the saints in the Mystery:

Acts 14:

21. And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
22. Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
23. And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Commended them to the Lord as to how?

Acts 20:

32. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Romans 16:

25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

He'd get them saved via his gospel of the grace of God - Mystery Grace - build them up in their understanding of the finer details of the Mystery they'd been saved unto by his gospel of the Grace of God, ordain elders, and so on, and move on.

He'd not been able to build up the Romans in said details, thus; why he wrote Romans.

He is nether correcting them, nor bringing them into the Body, rather, establishing them in the details of his Mystery Grace gospel as Body members...

Romans 15:

13. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
14. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
15. Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,
16. That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
17. I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.
18. For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,
19. Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20. Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation:
21. But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

It would not have been within Paul's authority to build on another man's foundation - the Romans Paul wrote Romans to, were not proselytes.

They were...

Romans 1:

7. To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

They already had all that - they were beloved of God, called saints, had His grace and His peace in His Son, and were known for all that throughout the Roman empire.

They were Body members who had the gifts that God was using the Body to provoke Israel to jealousy through...

Romans 12:

1. I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5. So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

We just see these things differently, is all...

The following passages helped me to understand how some people during Acts believed the gospel of God, had a faith, but were not yet in the Body of Christ having yet believed the gospel of Christ.



Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.



1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God


But Paul is ran out of town,


Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.


But later, Paul sends Timothy back to those who believed Jesus is the Christ to establish them in the gospel of Christ, how that Christ died for the sins and rose for their justification.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:



I believe the Romans were in very much the same situation. They had heard that Jesus is the Christ, that he had died and rose again, and was indeed the Son of God. And they believed. But Paul wanted to establish them in the gospel of Christ, and in the Body.


Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



:e4e:

At least in my mind, this is as plain as day.

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Danoh makes some really good points and so does STP. I'm curious about the word "establish" which as I understand it can mean a new thing or make something more firm. I'm going to read both these last two posts again (I've already read them twice), but just so you know....I appreciate you guys taking the time to share.

SaulToPaul said:

The following passages helped me to understand how some people during Acts believed the gospel of God, had a faith, but were not yet in the Body of Christ having yet believed the gospel of Christ.



Acts 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Acts 17:4 And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.



1 Thessalonians 2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God


But Paul is ran out of town,


Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.


But later, Paul sends Timothy back to those who believed Jesus is the Christ to establish them in the gospel of Christ, how that Christ died for the sins and rose for their justification.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:



I believe the Romans were in very much the same situation. They had heard that Jesus is the Christ, that he had died and rose again, and was indeed the Son of God. And they believed. But Paul wanted to establish them in the gospel of Christ, and in the Body.


Romans 1:15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.


Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,



:e4e:

At least in my mind, this is as plain as day.

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To be sure, we do see these things very differently. I do find the differences between us on this stimulating, as I had solved for a lot of the issues your view appears to have attempted to solve for, I had solved for them years ago, and had not thought on them much.

Thus far, re-examining said solutions, I am finding they still hold.

There are, for example, far too many Mystery Body Truth distinctions in the two Thessalonian epistles that Paul wrote reminding them of his having taught them, back when he was yet with them.

We can't assert, that the actual sense of phrasing like "the gospel of the circumcision" or "the gospel of the uncircumcision" or "the kingdom of God" are each determined by way more than the phrase itself, rather; by their content, and then turn around and ignore that when dealing with phrasing like "the gospel of God... the church of God... the gospel of Christ," and so on.

Thanks for your thoughts