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Dee Dee Warren
November 9th, 2002, 12:02 PM
I was a murderer. Does that sound harsh?? It is. I had murdered two of my children through abortion. I say was because I know that God has put away my sin. The woman who did those acts died on February 9, 1997. Why do I even bring this up?? I don’t struggle with forgiveness issues. I know I am forgiven. I do not struggle with condemnation issues, for I know there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. So again, why do I even bring this up??

Well despite my rest in Christ, the knowledge and the memory of what I did still comes to mind periodically and grieves me to the core. I think that is good. But here is what has been brining it to mind lately. Anyone who has dialoged with me on theological issues knows that I highly value consistency. But on this issue, I think we Christians can be some of the most inconsistent and hypocritical people around, myself a foremost offender. Let me give you the example that I wanted to bring up…. I am often asked if I have any children, to which I respond that I don’t. In my Christian worldview is that really true?? It is not. I am not a woman with no children, I am a woman with two deceased children who I do firmly believe are waiting for me with Christ. When I say that I have no children, it is as if these two never existed. They have no gravestone or memory. They have no names. And when I deny them, I kill them all over again in a sense.

And to be brutally honest, before I was a Christian I did not care in the slightest. I never gave them a second thought. I used to be a zealous abortion mill defender. In fact, this was my trademark schtick…. I had this large sign that said, “FANATIC” with an arrow putting down under it, and I would stand behind a pro-life protester and hold it over their head. I remember them telling the women that they would regret and be sorry over what they were doing. Maybe some would be, but I wasn’t. I find these methods which appeal to the selfishness of the woman very ineffective and somewhat dishonest. Who cares if they feel bad or not. That is not the issue.

This is not said to condemn nor am I looking for a fight. I am just trying to be honest and spill my guts a bit. Thank you for listening.

NSMinistries
November 9th, 2002, 12:05 PM
I'll listen any time you need to talk. God Bless & Prayers...

cirisme
November 9th, 2002, 12:19 PM
Wow, Dee Dee. I'm here if you need to talk, aswell.

You'll be in my prayers.

Poly
November 9th, 2002, 12:42 PM
By coming in here and sharing your heart the way you did you are keeping the memory of your children alive. You come in here with like minded people who know that you truly did have 2 babies and they are very real. I commend you to know end in taking responsibilty for this. You have my utmost respect. So few people can be humbled in this way. This shows you to be a wise and Godly woman.

You shouldn't feel guilty though when you tell people that you have no children. The Lord knows you know this. If you feel as though you have to explain your circumstance everytime somebody asks you may only cause you pain which in turn could end up making you less effective right now as a Godly woman. When God forgave you it was over. There was never any partial requirement on your part that you had to continually make this known as I'm sure you probably already know. But I'm sure there will be and probably already have been times that you could use this as a testimony. And I'm sure you will be wise to discern when those times arise.

Your courage to say what you did on the board has lifted me even as I type this and I'm sure many others will feel the same.
A perfect example of fighting the good fight. You may come up bruised and hurting because of your pain which I can't imagine but you NEVER lose.

GuardianDude
November 9th, 2002, 01:50 PM
Hey Dee Dee,

I have to echo what's already been said and say thanks for sharing your heart. I don't think we do this enough as Christians; sharing what's on our hearts. So many times, we just think that we can solve these things on our own. But we don't have to go through this stuff alone...in Christ, we are family. I also have to say that I it takes some serious guts for you to pour out your heart like that. I don't usually debate all that much, but I commend you for standing up for your beliefs in pretty much every post that you make here on TOL. You are truly a mighty woman of God.

We all have things in our past that we're not proud of. Sometimes the smallest things or coincidences can bring those memories back to our mind. For me, my struggle back in the day was pornography, which often led to lust. I have never physically done anything with anyone, but I've committed adultery enough times in my heart, that it pains me to even think about it. I was baptised when I was in high school. I knew what I believed, but I wasn't living my relationship with Christ. Back in 1996, God spoke to me...and that's when I believe that my side of my relationship with Christ really started.

And I could deny that I looked at that junk, fell into that sin, etc., but I just can't do that. I look back on it and realize how God delievered me from that sin. Through forgiveness, love, power, and righteousness.

God's love is so overwhelming. Everytime that I think about just how much He loves us, that He would send His only son for us, just to save us......THAT'S real love. Those are the times when I cry. I can't help it--when I come to a realization of God's love, it breaks my heart every time. No matter what it is that I'm going through, whether it be trials or tribulations, etc., His love is always bigger than that.

I believe that those 2 babies of yours are up in Heaven. I lost my mom this past February, and I heard someone once say that those things that we do here on earth are just training for what God has planned for us to do once we get Home. Being a musician, and having that talent that God granted to me, I look forward to praising Him in Heaven. My mom had a gift with children, and taught in one form or another for over 30 years. We could be at the grocery store, and kids who didn't even know my mom would smile at her, start talking to her, or in some cases just looked up, and reached up their hands as to say "pick me up", like they knew that she was someone who cared about kids. I remember once how we were talking about that...about what we were going to do in Heaven. And I told her that I thought about those babies that have been aborted (and living in Wichita, KS, one of the places where the most abortions take place, I can't help but think about it at times). I thought, "Someone has to care for them if they're aborted and go to Heaven". And I mentioned to her that maybe God was training her to do that. My mom may be playing with your 2 kids right now...only God knows.

If you need prayer or whatever, don't hesitate to share it.

ebenz47037
November 9th, 2002, 01:56 PM
Oh, Dee Dee! I'm sorry you've had to deal with that. I know that your two babies are in the arms of Jesus right now. Thank you for sharing a deeply personal part of yourself with us.

Dee Dee Warren
November 9th, 2002, 03:12 PM
Thank you so much my friends for listening. I am so grateful for the fellowship that I have found here.

Jefferson
November 9th, 2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
I find these methods which appeal to the selfishness of the woman very ineffective and somewhat dishonest. Who cares if they feel bad or not. That is not the issue.
Good point. What do you think is an effective and honest method?

Xmansmommy
November 9th, 2002, 03:26 PM
Dee Dee,
My dear sister in Christ, I know you've forgiven yourself over these issues and I know they still come up sometimes. I may not fully understand your hurt but I can keep you in prayer and I will. I know how difficult it is to share your heart with names on a screen but as GuardianDude said in his post, we truly are a family in Christ, and when you suffer, we suffer. May God help you to think of your babies in heaven doing the work that is necessary there and may that thought bring you comfort now and in the future.

Love ya Sis,
Linda

cirisme
November 9th, 2002, 03:32 PM
I will not pretend to feel the pain you’re going through
I know I cannot comprehend the hurt you’ve known
And I used to think it mattered if I understood
But now I just don’t know

Well, I’ll admit sometimes I still wish I knew what to say
And I keep looking for a way to fix it all
But we know we’re at the mercy of God’s higher ways
And our ways are so small

But I will carry you to Jesus
He is everything you need
I will carry you to Jesus on my knees

It’s such a privilege for me to give this gift to you
All I’d ever hope you’d give me in return
Is to know that you’ll be there to do the same for me
When the tables turn

And if you need to cry go on and I, I will cry along with you, yeah
I’ve given you what I have but still I know the best thing I can do
Is just pray for you

I’ll carry you
I’ll take you to Jesus on my knees

http://media.emicmg.com/misc/scc/audio/12/clip/wm/56/12.asx

:)

Dee Dee Warren
November 9th, 2002, 03:33 PM
Dear Jefferson:

To answer your question, that would be to focus on the personhood and humanity of the baby. That is the more honest approach, and in the long run the more effective because sheerly selfish and emotional appeals can also be overcome by greater selfish and emotional appeals. Speaking for myself only at that point in time, an appeal to my own selfishness that I would not have wanted to do that becuase I would feel bad was trumped by the even greater selfish need to be rid of this inconvenience and got on with my life. However..... I was not a murderer at heart... if someone had really convinced and impressed upon me the personhood and humanity of the baby, things may have turned out differently. Knowing myself, if I had to have seen a fetal monitor or ultrasound showing the heartbeat of the baby, I think that would have made a tremendous impact on me. I know from speaking with Crisis Pregnancy workers that they have said on the more effective tools they have had is the use of ultrasounds, but unfortunately there are very expensive machines. On a less high tech scale, they have found that sending the undecided mother home with baby items such as clothing and booties makes her think about the fact that what is inside her is not a blob or a clump of meaningless tissue. It is a little person with little feet and little hands who's very life is in her hands.

india
November 9th, 2002, 04:12 PM
You go, Dee Dee. Thank you for having the courage to share with us. You too, GuardianDude - it's good to talk about what God has done for us. Christ rocks the house! :)

I don't think you're being hypocritical in telling people you have no children, because if they'd been born and lived some number of years and then died, you would probably give people the same answer for the same reason. It's not something you're required to disclose in casual conversation.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea for anti-abortionists to talk about the bad aftereffects of abortion (emotional and physical) because it's a way of countering the assumption that having an abortion isn't a big deal and enables women to go on with their lives. Different arguments will get through to different people. I agree, though, that probably the most effective thing to do is to focus on the personhood of the baby. I recently looked up some info on medical sites on thedevelopment of the unborn (http://www.rationalchristianity.net/abortion/fetal_development.html), and it's amazing how quickly the brain, etc. is formed. Did you know a 4-month-old fetus can suck its thumb?

Freak
November 9th, 2002, 05:04 PM
Dee Dee-

You said: I am not a woman with no children, I am a woman with two deceased children who I do firmly believe are waiting for me with Christ.

You are correct. You do have two children whom are with the Lord Jesus. Those beautiful babies love you, Dee Dee. For they are present in perfect love. They know of nothing else.

You continue: They have no gravestone or memory. They have no names.

Dee Dee, ever thought of naming your beautiful children? Or holding a funeral on their behalf for some closure?

Over the years my wife and I have ministered to ladies who have killed their children through abortion and other ways. The ladies we have ministered to have found some powerful inner healing through the naming of their children, having a burial site and even holding a holy funeral in remembrance of those who died.

The Fathers of those babies need healing also. Let us not forget.

jeremiah
November 9th, 2002, 05:29 PM
"Behold children are a gift of the Lord; The fruit of the womb is a reward." "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believe in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life."
I rejoice, as the angels did, that you repented over your sin. It is so sad to know that we, in our ignorance refused gifts and blessings from the Lord. I rejoice even more, that you did not reject the gift of His Son. You have judged yourself rightly and sought the only remedy for our sins: MERCY. May God bless you, and may you judge others as you have judged yourself.
" For I delight in Mercy.."

firechyld
November 9th, 2002, 09:49 PM
Thank you for sharing, Dee Dee. I know you specified "Christians only"... but I wanted to tell you that I still feel for you.

I'm glad you've been able to reconcile your past with your religious convictions, and I hope you find the closure you're after.

Good luck...

... firechyld

GraceInMe
November 9th, 2002, 11:32 PM
Dee Dee I see you very much like Paul the Apostle. Strong, Smart, and humbled by your past. I am proud to call you friend and excited to see the future and its possibilities. God bless you and give you peace.

Dee Dee Warren
November 10th, 2002, 07:49 AM
Dear Everyone:

I wanted to thank you further for the encouraging comments...

lucybelle
November 10th, 2002, 10:34 AM
Dee Dee- I admire you very much for your God given strength and courage- I wish I could give you a great big hug- your post has brought tears to my eyes sister- May God bless you and may you continue to grow in His grace and beauty- thank you for your post.

Dee Dee Warren
November 10th, 2002, 11:47 AM
your post has brought tears to my eyes sister

Thank you so much Lucy... it brought tears to my eyes to write it (and yes the big ole meanie preterist does cry sometimes.. smile)

GraceInMe
November 10th, 2002, 05:21 PM
Dee Dee have you ever considered naming your babies? Maybe that would bring some more closure. I don't know just a thought.

Dee Dee Warren
November 10th, 2002, 05:34 PM
That has been brought up to me before, but no, it is not something that I think is for me in this situation... thank you so much for the suggestion though. I have this idea that God has already named them for me. On another note... is Yx alright?? Ever since he was sick that one time, whenever he is not as active as usual on TOL, I get concerned... plus as usual he has ignored my email asking how he was doing. If he is fine, put a hurting on him so he feels bad :)

agapathos
November 10th, 2002, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Dear Jefferson:

To answer your question, that would be to focus on the personhood and humanity of the baby

Dee Dee,

I have just realized that some good has come from your pain. Your two little kids must be proud of their mom.

The response you gave Jefferson is the one that all of the clinic-bombing and -blockading activists need to hear.

I have long agonized over the plight of the unborn and often prayed--though, to my everlasting shame, not unceasingly--for an end to abortion (and not just its being legal). However, I felt completely powerless because the only avenues that appeared open were shaming (with posters of aborted fetuses), blockading (with our own prostrate bodies) and bumping off abortionists, which is the most hypocritical thing an abortion-is-murder-and-therefore-wrong proponent can do.

You have shown me a new way, as only a woman who had endured the passage from mother-who-had-an-abortion to Christian-who-was-an-almostmother-in-another-life could. Our focus (on the selfishness of the woman) was wrong and it took you and your painful past to teach us that.

Preach it, Mama! Tell the story!

Jefferson
November 10th, 2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by agapathos
The response you gave Jefferson is the one that all of the clinic-bombing and -blockading activists need to hear.
You apparently didn't read Dee Dee's post very closely. I think she agrees with my methods. She wrote:


To answer your question, that would be to focus on the personhood and humanity of the baby.
That is exactly what my graphic pictures do. They focus on the personhood and humanity of the baby.

agapathos wrote:


However, I felt completely powerless because the only avenues that appeared open were shaming (with posters of aborted fetuses)
Again, I think Dee Dee disagrees with your attitude because in her opening post, speaking of women who abort, she wrote, "Who cares if they feel bad or not?"


blockading (with our own prostrate bodies)
What is so horrible about that method? I think it's great.

agapathos
November 11th, 2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by Jefferson

You apparently didn't read Dee Dee's post very closely. I think she agrees with my methods.

No, Jefferson. I don't think she does. If any doubt exists about this, I think we should both defer to the source. Dee Dee?


That is exactly what my graphic pictures do. They focus on the personhood and humanity of the baby.

Again: no, Jefferson. They depict the personhood and humanity of the baby. Your approach--presenting them to young women who have decided to abort their own babies--focuses on shaming them for their selfish behavior, precisely what Dee Dee decried in her post.


Again, I think Dee Dee disagrees with your attitude because in her opening post, speaking of women who abort, she wrote, "Who cares if they feel bad or not?"

It was a rhetorical question. She was implying that the activists and demonstrators do not care how the women feel. For this reason, she characterizes as hypocrites all who suggest to them that they will be "sorry" if they abort their children.


What is so horrible about that method? I think it's great.

I didn't say it is "horrible". I merely stated that no other avenues appeared open to me. Since you ask, however, I don't think it to be "horrible". I think it to be, as Dee Dee suggested in her post, ineffectual. Trying to prevent women from having abortions by force--whether of arms or of prostrate bodies (which it would prove dangerous for pregnant women to try to step over)--will likely never succeed because the focus is wrong and dishonest. That is what Dee Dee said. I think, rather, that sending them gifts of booties, onesies, and other layette items would give them pause to reflect on what they were contemplating the destruction of.

Dee Dee, if I misunderstood your post, I am sorry. However, this is what I understood you to mean.

agapathos

Dee Dee Warren
November 11th, 2002, 05:24 AM
Hi Everyone.. I guess then I will clear the air on what I do think... and it is a little bit of both. It is so easy to be misunderstood on forums..... so I hope I am not misunderstood.

Jefferson is right in this. I don't disagree with the display of the graphic pictures, because the graphic pictures are the reality. They are real pictures of real human beings who are really murdered. In fact, in the same way that I said that I feel that my denying my two children ever existed, it is like murdering them all over again, in denying the reality of what happens to these people, and prefering to be "decent" and not show it, we are accomplices in a sense. How can anyone look at those body parts and not be moved by the humanity of the baby?? So, to be honest, I do have a real problem with the objections to showing those pictures. I think every woman who is about to kill her baby needs to see those pictures so that she can see what she is about to do to another human being. In short, I don't object to shame or shock.

However, like I said how I was involved in abortion clinic defense before, I have not been involved in abortion clinic protests since. Why? Right or wrong, I don't want to be classed in with the nuts that shoot doctors and bomb clinics. Unfortunately that also is a reality and that is where I think agapathos is coming from, and i agree with her there.

On the other hand, I do agree with blockading clinics with our prostate bodies. That is the heart and core of civil disobedience. I am too cowardly to have yet to do it myself. Perhaps I will (also my husband would not approve so I have to balance competing interests).

I never meant to suggests that the protestors were hypocrites. I admire the true abortion protestors (the non-loonies who are peacefully exercising their rights).

Jefferson did in fact have it right what I meant by the focus on the selfishness of the woman. I am opposed to the current politically-correct methods of just telling the woman that they should not do this because they will regret it. Whether or not they will regret it is irrelevant. Until I became a Christian, I did not regret it, and was planning on having a third one if it ever became necessary. It is wrong irregardless if anyone ever feels bad about it.

This was kind of disjointed... and I apologize for that.

firechyld
November 11th, 2002, 09:01 AM
Just out of my own curiousity... these places that are blockaded, do they perform services other than pregnancy terminations? Everyone always seems to be ranting about "stopping people entering abortion clinics". Are they places dedicated to terminations only?

firechyld

Dee Dee Warren
November 11th, 2002, 09:14 AM
Dear Fire.. please don't be offended, but I would really like to keep this discussion thread between Christians. Thank so much for your courtesy in that.

firechyld
November 11th, 2002, 09:44 AM
Sorry about that... I honestly didn't mean to steer the conversation off course. My question was based on the fact that these facilities don't seem to exist in this country and I was curious. If yourself or anyone else would like to answer my question, please feel free to do so in PM. Would you like me to delete my original query?

As for the between Christians thing: completely your call. My earlier expression of sympathy is still valid, and I'll back out of your discussion now.

(Have you considered having this thread moved to the Exclusively Christian Forum?)

Again, my apologies. Be well.

firechyld

Dee Dee Warren
November 11th, 2002, 09:48 AM
Dear FC:

Thank you and no need to delete any comments. I did not post this is the Exclusively Christian Forum as that is more for strictly theological questions and this was more for fellowship and sharing amongst Christians, and this Forum is just plain more popular right now. I also knew that everyone would honor my request to keep it among Christians as you are kindly doing. Thank you again.

firechyld
November 11th, 2002, 10:00 AM
No probs. I'll be over there in the corner when I'm allowed to talk to people again. (j/k)

*grin*

agapathos
November 11th, 2002, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Jefferson is right in this. I don't disagree with the display of the graphic pictures, because the graphic pictures are the reality.

Oops! I stand corrected.


Right or wrong, I don't want to be classed in with the nuts that shoot doctors and bomb clinics. Unfortunately that also is a reality and that is where I think agapathos is coming from, and i agree with her there.

Oh, and DD? I'm a 'him'.

agapathos

Knight
November 11th, 2002, 10:44 PM
Dee Dee, this must have been a very difficult thread for you to start (understatement of the year).

I actually think your perspective on this issue is right on target.

You are indeed a new creation and your sins are forgiven however that does not magically take away the feelings you must have, it also does not take away your responsibility to warn others of their wicked actions.

I do not think "closure" is a good idea as some have suggested.

The apostle Paul never put "closure" to the sins he had committed before he was converted. Instead Paul used his sinful past as a witness for Christ and what Christ can do for the wicked.

Therefore, I think that God is calling you to.....
2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,

Titus 2:15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. I will pray for your boldness and your comfort on this issue.

Dee Dee Warren
November 12th, 2002, 04:02 AM
Dear Agapathos:

My bad. I am sorry for assuming you were a she.

Dee Dee Warren
November 12th, 2002, 04:06 AM
Dear Knight:

Thank you for your support and affirmation that I am thinking on the right track with this. I also agree that "closure" is not the best avenue... for in the sense in which I think it was meant here, I already have that. It is a "put away" issue as far as forgiveness and condemnation are concerned... but the question is, where do we do from here?? Paul never certainly "forgot" his earlier deeds, though he certainly recongized that he was forgiven. In fact, I am certain that Stephen was very often before his eyes and helped to motivate him to understand the depth of his debt to Christ.

agapathos
November 12th, 2002, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Dear Agapathos:

My bad. I am sorry for assuming you were a she.

Dee Dee,

Actually, I'm flattered that you thought I was a woman. It tells me (whether or not that was your intent) that you find my perspectives on 'women's issues' to be the sort that women themselves might entertain. :)


That in turn strokes my ego regarding my status as a 'sensitive male' who takes time to 'nurture (his) feminine side'. :D

Dee Dee Warren
November 12th, 2002, 02:20 PM
LOLOLOL... happy to oblige!!

Pilgrimagain
November 13th, 2002, 01:40 PM
Dee Dee: Right on sister.

HerodionRomulus
November 14th, 2002, 06:02 PM
i can only echo the encouragement and support others have shown already.

I would like to share one little tidbit with you though.

You mentioned focusing on the personhood of the unborn.

One of the popular phrases of the pro-choice side is to say that it is a woman's body and she has a right to do with it as she will.
But
What about the not-yet-born child? Doesn't s/he have a right to control over his/her own self/body?

Be blessed in Jesus Christ.

Dee Dee Warren
November 17th, 2002, 09:52 PM
Dear HR:

You are absolutely right. The "child" is not part of the women's body of course, but the more sophisticated pro-abortion argument will say that the woman has the right to determine whether or not she will be a life support system and whether we can legally say that she must. This of course though begs the question. The question that first must be answered is this... is abortion the murder of another human being? If it is not, the entire question is moot. If it is (and of course it is), it is then that we must determine what rights have priority over other rights.

For example, I have a right to the pursuit of happiness. However, I cannot kill you even if it makes me happy to do so. A woman does have a right to control the use of her body, but it does not trump the child's right to life in the totality of the circumstances of pregnancy. All of our laws balance competing interests and demonstrate an inuitive "hierarchy of morals" which is absolutely not relativism despite Hank's attempt to make it so on the "Lying is Never Righteous" thread which I will summarily dispatch in due time.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 08:56 AM
And this may step on some toes, but another area where we Christians go terribly wrong is when we personally support an "exception" in cases of rape. Let me explain why I see it this way.

When I was a zealous pro-abortion advociate, I seized upon this mindset upon Christians (I am saying that what follows is all necessarily true, I am saying how it appeared to me back then - so don't take some of this comments as my current pov). I pointed out that this exception may unwittingly reveal at least some of some of the underlying reasons for opposition to abortion, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the alleged baby, but everything to do with the behavior of the mother and prudish attitudes towards sexuality. To me, it seemed like this exception revealed that if a girl was "good" and chaste and was doing everything she could to remain pure but was violated against her will, then she was entitled to have an abortion. However, not so for bad, bad girls who chose to have sex (particularly outside of marriage). No abortions for the bad girls, they made their beds, and they must lie in it.

You see, there is no difference between a baby conceived by rape, and a baby conceived by consensual sex. They are both fully human, and are both fully murdered by the act of abortion. We believe as Christians in the Biblical principle that our justice systems should not put the sons to death for the sins of the father... why do some of us then accept the murder of infants for the sins of their father?? I know we think we are acting out of compassion, but it is misdirected compassion. I personally know a Christian woman who was raped and got pregnant. She bore the child and adoptive parents were found. Was it painful, yes? We weren't promised lives without pain. Our pain does not give us the right to murder another human being.

DaNiceGuy
November 18th, 2002, 10:24 AM
@Dee Dee
I do not pretend to know what is like, what it is you are feeling. All I can offer is prayer. My wife, too, had two abortions in her life. Both children were conceived through rape, once when she was 17 and the other when she was 19. Back then, she did not know what to do and of course her friends and the crowd she hung with told her to abort and so she aborted both babies. I did not know any of this until we almost got engaged. Neither one of us were Christians at the time so I was pretty upset, not at her because she was and still is my life, but at the men who raped her and put her in such a situation. Like I said earlier, this all happened before she became a Christian, re-born in the faith with Jesus Christ by her side. Five years ago, she, along with myself, became a Christian. For once she felt the forgiveness that only Jesus can provide us. Every once and a great while, she thinks about those babies but then she looks at our three children and is reminded just how much God has His hands in our lives. Her and I truly belive that if she wasn't raped, didn't have abortions, didn't try and run from her past by enrolling and dropping out of different colleges, that we would not be toghether, married happily, with three beautiful children as our gifts from God. It was God's plan from the beginning because her name was already written in the Book of Life and He knew, HE KNEW, what would take place in her life and how it would end. That is just downright awe-inspiring.

Jefferson
November 18th, 2002, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by DaNiceGuy
It was God's plan from the beginning
It was God's plan that your wife was raped? Please tell me this is not what you are saying.

DaNiceGuy
November 18th, 2002, 11:07 AM
@Jefferson
That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that the end result was God's ultimate plan. He knew that she would come to Christ, he knew what would take place in her life. His plan was not for her to be raped, that was indeed Satan's work, but he knew that it would happen. God does not tempt man, He cannot do that. But he allows for it to happen even though He knows how it will turn out. Remember God's faithful servant, Job? God allowed Satan to work his acts of evil on Job to try and turn God's faithful servant from Him. He knew the pain and acts that Satan would inflict on Job. But He also knew that Job would not deny the Lord God. God knows what will happen. Can you deny that? If so, how and why? God knows every piece of hair on your head. He knows every grain of sand on this earth. He knows every atom that makes up every animate and inanimate object on this rock we live on. He knows everything that takes or will take place in our lives. So no, God did not mean for my wife to be raped. No, He did not mean for her to have abortions. No, He did not mean for her to run around with the "loose" crowd. Yes, He did mean for her and I to meet. Yes, He did mean for her to be born-again into the faith and become a true Christian. God did not mean, and did not want the bad stuff to happen, but He knew it would and He knew where my wife would end up in her life and her faith.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 12:26 PM
Hey Everyone... I want to make clear that my comments were not meant as finger-pointing to anyone who has been in that situation at all. It was more to stir up comments on exactly what our position should be, and I am advocating against favoring an exception for rape. Either abortion is murder or it is not. The circumstances of the conception are irrelevant to that question.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Either abortion is murder or it is not. The circumstances of the conception are irrelevant to that question.

That's right. I understand. Your post was clear. Not a guilt trip but a position statement.

The only case in which I might advocate terminating a pregnancy would be something like an ectopic implantation (such as one that was intrasalpingial). Even in that case, however, I would attempt to salvage the child for implantation in a surrogate host.

How do you feel about that, Dee Dee?

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 12:59 PM
In cases where the life of the mother is genuinely at stake, which is what I think is the case in your scenario, then I would agree with you. All attempts should be made to save both, but if that is not possible, we cannot demand that the mother sacrifice her life for the life of her child, especially when in most of those cases, carrying a pregnancy to term which result in the death of both.

Thank you for saying that my post was clear. I want to be very clear that I am speaking of developing a consistent Christian worldview on this issue now and recognizing our errors and sins of the past to give them up to Christ.

I really began my reconciliation of what I had done when I was asked to give a talk on leadership to a group of women at a very intense spiritual retreat. I spoke about my two abortions and how I am not a childless woman, but in summation of that point I told these women this.... "God can use broken people as His leaders.... very often that is exactly what He is looking for." Our brokenness in whatever area can be used for His greater glory.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Our brokenness in whatever area can be used for His greater glory.

Amen, Brother.

(Sister? Ahem. God has no daughters, only sons.)

:D

efta777
November 18th, 2002, 02:16 PM
In cases where the life of the mother is genuinely at stake, which is what I think is the case in your scenario, then I would agree with you. All attempts should be made to save both, but if that is not possible, we cannot demand that the mother sacrifice her life for the life of her child, especially when in most of those cases, carrying a pregnancy to term which result in the death of both.

I think our mistake here is when we start to call this abortion. The word abortion has a negative stigma attached to it, and rightfully so, but if an unborn child happens to die from an attempt to save a mother's life, it is a tragedy, not abortion. We don't say that murder is okay when it's done by a doctor who's trying to save that person's life, because it's not murder, it's a casualty. So in short- abortion is NEVER right. This is the stance we should take.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 02:23 PM
The word abortion has a negative stigma attached to it, and rightfully so, but if an unborn child happens to die from an attempt to save a mother's life, it is a tragedy, not abortion.

Not to be disagreeable, but I would disagree in a sense. I don't believe in semantical word games, but prefer blunt truth. The cases I was referring to where not cases where the baby happens to die in an attempt to save the life of the mother, but those cases where the foreknown and inevitable result is that the baby will in fact die in order to save the life of the mother. That is a tragedy, but it is also an abortion. Cloaking realities in niceties does not do bring light to an issue. However, I do believe that such cases as these are statistically rare, and are usually brought up to muddy the waters, as is the issue about rape or incest.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by efta777


I think our mistake here is when we start to call this abortion.

No, your mistake here is to not call this abortion. Abortion is the name given to the willful termination of a pregnancy--regardless of the reason.

Abortions fall into four broad classes: therapeutic, prophylactic, spontaneous and elective. Spontaneous abortions are better known as miscarriages; prophylactic abortions are undertaken when a child is so badly deformed (e.g., ancephalic, neural-tube anomalies, etc.) that no "human" life is deemed present; therapeutic abortions are undertaken to preserve the life of the mother; elective abortions are completely preventable procedures that are undertaken at the behest of the patient, her family, or the court.

Only elective abortions are pertinent to any discussions relating to the legality of willfully destroying incumbent human life. All other forms are either natural processes (e.g., spontaneous) or completely defensible medical procedures (e.g., prophylactic; therapeutic). Termination of an ectopic pregnancy falls under the rubric of therapeutic abortion. In the specific case of an intrasalpingial implantation, the fertilized ovum attaches itself to the interior wall of the Fallopian tube, where it has neither room to grow nor true endometrium to properly develop a placenta. Inevitably, in such cases, the blastocyst will form and may proceed to the embryonic stage of development before the lack of placental support spontaneously terminates the pregnancy or its gradual increase in size causes the woman's salpinx (Fallopian tube) to rupture and possibly kill both her and her baby.

The determination that a pregnancy is problematic and the decision to terminate it properly belong to a woman and her physician. As a father of two children who succumbed to spontaneous abortion (i.e., miscarriage), I believe that no one values the lives of infants more than I do. Certainly, I would "go the extra mile" to save the life of my child if at all possible. However, considering that we have other (living) children to raise--not to mention a viable relationship as friends, lovers and spouses--as well, I'd be hard pressed to justify risking my wife's death in order to sustain a pregnancy that's iffy at best to begin with.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 04:32 PM
I don't disagree Sheepdog, but again, I am speaking more in principle here to get to the root, and then it can be applied to specific cases. An analogy may be helpful. I am completely in favor of the death penalty, however, I am not too enchanted with the way the death penality is administered in our country. That being said, I say fix the administration, not throw out the whole concept.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
I am not too enchanted with the way the death penality is administered in our country.

That 'country', I suppose, being somewhere in 'YxBoom's spacious head'?

efta777
November 18th, 2002, 07:05 PM
No, your mistake here is to not call this abortion. Abortion is the name given to the willful termination of a pregnancy--regardless of the reason.

I'm not talking about willful termination. I'm talking about when the death of the baby is an unintentional side effect of saving the mother's life. From what I understand though from researching the issue a few years back, is that there are VERY few cases if any of the child having to be willfully aborted to save the mother's life. From what I understand it just doesn't happen.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 07:14 PM
That 'country', I suppose, being somewhere in 'YxBoom's spacious head'?

Exactly. There is a whole country in here. I told you it was large.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by efta777
From what I understand it just doesn't happen.

Actually, efta, it (speaking strictly of intrasalpingial implantation) happens all the time. Approximately 2% of all pregnancies are ectopic, and 97% of these are intrasalpingial. Approximately 91% of intrasalpingial pregnancies are "treated" with an injection of Methotrexate (a common abortifacient) which "causes the conception material to be dissolved and reabsorbed". They never make the news because (I suppose) guys like Jefferson just don't have a lot of photographs of ectopically-situated 1st-trimester embryos being dissolved in this fashion.

In short: it is murder; it is commonplace; it is almost never elective; it is almost never desired; it is a tragedy but less of one than having your wife/mother die on the table because it wasn't done.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Exactly. There is a whole country in here. I told you it was large.

LOL

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 08:15 PM
They never make the news because (I suppose) guys like Jefferson just don't have a lot of photographs of ectopically-situated 1st-trimester embryos being dissolved in this fashion.

That was a completely unfair comment.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
That was a completely unfair comment.

It wasn't intended hatefully. Why do you think it unfair?

My intent merely was to state that--for whatever reason--abortion abolition activists (Jefferson strikes me as one) don't seem to target these sorts of abortions.

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 09:04 PM
The response to that is self-evident. I don't really think you need me to explain it to you. Jefferson, and I, don't disagree with those types of abortions. Do you expect us to target something that we don't have an issue with?? That is simply a red herring (classic bait and switch technique) and completely unfair on other grounds even outside this brief response. Prolife advocates, such as myself, and I would say Jefferson speak out against RU486 being considered in this country and we don't have any pictures of those babies either.

agapathos
November 18th, 2002, 09:20 PM
"Bait and Switch"? What are you talking about, Dee Dee? I'm as prolife as you are!

(No, hold on...I've got to edit that...)

Actually, I'm MORE prolife than you are: not only am I against killing the unborn, I'm against killing anybody! I'm anti-death penalty too!

Dee Dee Warren
November 18th, 2002, 09:55 PM
I never said you were pro-abortion, the bait and switch had to deal with the focus of the subject not whether or not you are pro-life.

Dee Dee Warren
November 19th, 2002, 03:42 AM
Actually, I'm MORE prolife than you are: not only am I against killing the unborn, I'm against killing anybody! I'm anti-death penalty too!

And here is another bait and switch, and actually what would be called the unwarrented expansion of a semantic domain for illegitimate polemical effect. The phrase "pro-life" has historically referred to the abortion issue, specifically to the opposition of abortion as a means of terminating pregnancies at will when the life of the mother is not genuinely in mortal peril.

All it would take then for someone to trump you would be for a vegetarian to come along and say that they are more prolife than you since they are opposed to killing animals, and then for a vegetarian to come along who also opposes pest control who says that they never even step on a flower. That is ridiculous. You are NOT more pro-life than me for the death penalty has nothing to do with this issue.

Additionally, it is an extremely unfair comment in that in pro-lifers opposition to abortion the underlying philosphy is of course the 5th Commandment, do not murder. This is not referring to the simple taking away of a life, for within the rest of the very book that this command appears in God tells His people, in certain circumstances, to kill, kill again, and then kill some more. The fdifference is that murder is the unjustified killing of a person.. however the Bible is very clear that there are justified killings. While you may try and make the erroneous claim that you are more pro-life than me through word games, you can keep it, since I would pefer to be more Biblical.

Lastly, this comment of yours also goes on to possilby show (for I am going to make an assumption here) of some hypocrisy on your part in your jab at Jefferson.

You have claimed to be against all "killing" (seemingly unable or unwilling to make the distinctions that the Bible teaches us to make) and rail against the likes of Jefferson for not bringing publicity to the "murders" of babies who are aborted in cases of the medical correction of ectopic pregnancies. Well where is your outcry??? What are you doing?? Are you actually claiming that you are opposed to such measures?? If you are to be consistent, you would have to say so, and if not, then you have conceded that there are justified incidences, and the foundation for your claim to be more pro-life is smoke and mirrors.

Notice in all of this, I am not questioning that you are opposed to abortion, nor am I questioning you are a Christian. I am seriously questioning your last few comments and your underlying philosophy.

Jefferson
November 19th, 2002, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by DaNiceGuy
@Jefferson
That is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that the end result was God's ultimate plan. He knew that she would come to Christ, he knew what would take place in her life. His plan was not for her to be raped,
I don't want this thread to get off topic so I have moved our discussion to the "Attributes of God" folder in a thread I entitled, "DaNiceGuy"

Dee Dee Warren
November 26th, 2002, 06:12 AM
For an interesting/brutally honest/provocative tie-in to the death penalty issue, see my comments here:

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=153051#post153051

Dee Dee Warren
November 27th, 2002, 02:15 PM
I was just reading an article in Creation magazine that summed up what I was referring to about some of the tactics to oppose abortion that I had been referring to:

It is perhaps tactically important in the antiabortion struggle, for instance, to point to the research that mothers who have abortions are prone to end up with psychiatric difficulties, or breast cancer. But there is always a danger in such 'evidentialist' politicking. Because what if new research showed that mothers who had abortions were on average, happier and healthier? What that somehow much it less wrong to take an innocent human life? Of course not.

themuzicman
November 27th, 2002, 02:38 PM
Personally, I have an argument that establishes the fetus as a unique human being, and I argue human rights from there.

It's pretty rock solid.

Michael

Dee Dee Warren
November 27th, 2002, 02:47 PM
I agree. I object to alleged more PC method of appealing to the woman's selfishness.

themuzicman
November 27th, 2002, 02:58 PM
Unfortunately, the selfish argument seems to resonate better in an irrational world.

Michael

firechyld
November 28th, 2002, 04:01 AM
It is perhaps tactically important in the antiabortion struggle, for instance, to point to the research that mothers who have abortions are prone to end up with psychiatric difficulties, or breast cancer.

The main issue with using this line of argument (without myself arguing one side or the other) is that the actual research behind the argument is often not publicised.

The breast cancer angle, for example, has its most weightiest evidence behind the simple fact that the more menstrual periods a woman has in her lifetime, the more likely she is to develop breast cancer. Hence, a woman who has a child is statistically less likely to develop breast cancer than one who has an abortion. However, this can also be applied to the theory that a woman on the contraceptive pill who "runs through" and does not have a monthly period is less likely to develop breast cancer, not to mention the fact that vital factors such as hereditary and lifestyle are completely ignored.

*shrug*

All that said, I agree with Dee Dee in that it becomes rather irrelevant when the question is "is abortion immoral?".

firechyld

jeremiah
November 28th, 2002, 11:32 AM
To firechyld:
This thread is titled Christians only please; Abortion.
I think that this is your 5th post here? As a Christian man who has been involved in the defense of life; I have been told by numerous pro-abortion, and even some pro-life women, that I can not possibly understand the issue of aborton, and a woman's dilemna. Now is my chance to politely say, firechyld, as a non believer in Jesus Christ, you can not possibly understand the depths of sin, guilt, remorse, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation, which Dee Dee Warren has beautifully expressed,and which so many of us other Christians have likewise experienced, in the wonderful saving grace and power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it be true that I can not understand what a woman experiences in her decision of a lifetime, it could be equally true, that you can not understand what we experience, when we made our decision of this, and the next lifetime. That decision to see ourselves for the sinners we truly are, and to fall upon the judgment and mercy of Jesus on the cross, and to rise with Him in His victory over the Law of sin and death.
If you choose to make the same decision, which both men and women can, and have made, you are welcome back with open arms. There is no need for you to respond here if you choose not to. In this case we are "pro choice".

firechyld
November 29th, 2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by jeremiah
To firechyld:
This thread is titled Christians only please; Abortion.
I think that this is your 5th post here? As a Christian man who has been involved in the defense of life; I have been told by numerous pro-abortion, and even some pro-life women, that I can not possibly understand the issue of aborton, and a woman's dilemna. Now is my chance to politely say, firechyld, as a non believer in Jesus Christ, you can not possibly understand the depths of sin, guilt, remorse, repentance, forgiveness and reconciliation, which Dee Dee Warren has beautifully expressed,and which so many of us other Christians have likewise experienced, in the wonderful saving grace and power of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it be true that I can not understand what a woman experiences in her decision of a lifetime, it could be equally true, that you can not understand what we experience, when we made our decision of this, and the next lifetime. That decision to see ourselves for the sinners we truly are, and to fall upon the judgment and mercy of Jesus on the cross, and to rise with Him in His victory over the Law of sin and death.
If you choose to make the same decision, which both men and women can, and have made, you are welcome back with open arms. There is no need for you to respond here if you choose not to. In this case we are "pro choice".

Now would be the bit where I politely say, jeremiah, that I can't see anything in your post that even vaguely refers to anything I actually said.

I've stayed out of the entire debate. All I presented was a slightly deeper understanding of the not-so-helpful nature of comments such as "abortions cause breast cancer", and the ease with which they are disproven... a point initially made by Dee Dee. I fail to see how that is me getting involved in the discussion as to whether or not abortion is a "sin". In fact, the last line of my post reads:


All that said, I agree with Dee Dee in that it becomes rather irrelevant when the question is "is abortion immoral?".


firechyld

cirisme
November 29th, 2002, 09:12 PM
Firechyld,
I do remember a story on Fox about a government funded study that says there is a link between breast cancer and abortion. I did a quick search just now, but couldn't find it. I'll do more research tomorrow when I have time and try to get some links to you.

Also, this thread was originally intended to be for Christians only, and think that Dee Dee has made it abundantly clear that's what her wish is.

Now she has teeth and can enforce that "Christians only" on this thread.

:)

jeremiah
November 30th, 2002, 09:53 AM
To firechyld:
ROFL On page two you apologized to Dee Dee for butting into the discussion and said you were bowing out for good. You have since posted several times since. Now you are defending yourself. Since you can not be counted on to keep your word, and my request for you to stop posting only encouraged you to post again, you can be assured that this will be my last post to you on this thread. We will see which one of us can keep their word. Unless of course you become a Christian.:D as I said in my previous post.

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 10:16 AM
I do desire for only Christians to be posting here. However, I have no authority, now or before to "demand" that. This is an open forum and anyone really can post here without official censure. I am only asking for the courtesy to respect my wishes. It has been questioned why then I did not post this on the Exclusively Christian forum... perhaps I should have, but I did want the words to have a wide audience... any nonChristian was certainly free to start any thread they choose to commenting on the issues. This was intensely difficult and personal... and I do once again request for a completely voluntary compliance with my request. If not.. oh well, that is the way the cookie crumbles and there will not be another peep out of me about that.

Perhaps we can now discuss the issues now that this is out of the way?

Freak
November 30th, 2002, 10:37 AM
DD, asks: I am only asking for the courtesy to respect my wishes.

Well, we ask that you respect our wishes too.

cirisme
November 30th, 2002, 10:39 AM
We?

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 10:57 AM
Freak what in the world are you talking about? And you have a lot of nerve butting into a thread of this nature for your own personal agenda against people who ever dare to disagree with you. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself. Disgusting.

Freak
November 30th, 2002, 11:07 AM
DD, you should be ashamed of yourself for being so prideful to think that you rule this thread and this forum.:nono:

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 11:17 AM
Tsk, tsk, Freak. You are beyond belief. In my post that you are referring to, I acknowledged that I had no AUTHORITY to make my requests and was asking for common courtesy. You then replied, in a shameless grandstanding action that demonstrates sheer disrespect for the seriousness of this thread and the subject matter and for me, that I somehow do not comply with the same sorts of requests by others. That is untrue. So not only do you come in here and disrespect me, and my pain with this issue, and the utter soberness of my pouring out my heart in public, you then lie about me. If you have a charge against me where I have not honored a similar request by other people, I invite you to do your usual tactic and start a thread about it. If I have ever dishonored a similar reasonable request, I must make ammends.

1013
November 30th, 2002, 11:19 AM
folks, let freak be. there is no reason to dialogue with folks when they get like this.

this doesn't have to turn into a debate on respecting the wishes of the topic starter if you don't debate with em on it.

I intend to ask knight for a new rule on a related issue to this.

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 11:32 AM
Actually 1013, I think you have missed the reason for my indignation with Freak which has very little to do with respecting the wishes of a thread-starter (though I think your idea to ask Knight about this idea is very, very good).

1013
November 30th, 2002, 11:42 AM
well, If you don't want to discuss further the consistency of and ethics of requesting that others exclude themselves from this thread, then technically, you may go ahead and deleat their posts. It is thread hijacking and off topic because your request is not the topic of this thread. It violates one of the explicit commands of the "ten er twelve commandments of tol" Freak should feel free to gripe about it in another thread he starts himself perhaps in another forum.

as for non-christian participation here, I say perhaps you should continue to depend on their curtesy even if they have not always been curteous. I doubt we should turn that into a rule but it might not be a bad thing.

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 11:45 AM
I would not delete the posts, but thank you for pointing that out. I am upset that Freak would use this thread, of all threads, for his grandstanding on-again, off-again vendetta against me. If he would like to accuse me of being inconsistent in not honoring other similar requests by people, he should start a new thread... and I believe I am owed an apology here by him. I don't think I will get it, but I do believe I am owed it.

Freak
November 30th, 2002, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
I would not delete the posts, but thank you for pointing that out. I am upset that Freak would use this thread, of all threads, for his grandstanding on-again, off-again vendetta against me. If he would like to accuse me of being inconsistent in not honoring other similar requests by people, he should start a new thread... and I believe I am owed an apology here by him. I don't think I will get it, but I do believe I am owed it.

Look, I apologize for choosing this thread, though this was the thread, you made the comment that I had issue with. You need to behave little lady.

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 11:54 AM
Since that is about the best of an apology that I can expect from you, I accept your apology. I now expect you to prove your charge against me on another thread or retract it forthwith.

Freak
November 30th, 2002, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Since that is about the best of an apology that I can expect from you, I accept your apology. I now expect you to prove your charge against me on another thread or retract it forthwith.

This is my concern. I created a thread to discuss a specific topic and then you come barging in and change the topic-http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4435&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

It was off-topic. So....you need to adhere to your own advice.

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 11:59 AM
You have got to be kidding me. I see now why you don't start another thread on this topic... you opened your mouth, and now you are choking on your foot.

Freak
November 30th, 2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
You have got to be kidding me. I see now why you don't start another thread on this topic... you opened your mouth, and now you are choking on your foot.

Whatever, DD. Now behave.

cirisme
November 30th, 2002, 12:18 PM
you opened your mouth, and now you are choking on your foot.

Good one! I'm going to have to remember that. ;)

JCAtheist
November 30th, 2002, 12:20 PM
If you don't mind.. as a self confessed Christian, I hope you don't mind me adding my 2 cents.

I have thought on this issue often.. pro-life, pro-choice.. and what one should believe. Of course, this becomes a very personal matter, especially for Women, as they will bear the brunt of any decision made (although the man might after the decision).

Obviously, on moral grounds, the extermination of an unborn child is a bad thing. However, most do seem to agree that there are instances where that decision should be left to the 'mother' - especially if her own life is in peril. Others will say that in some circumstances even aborting a early pregnancy because of the state of the 'parent(s)' may be necessary - brother/sister pregnancies, Rape pregnancies where the family will only destroy the child by lack of love anyway etc.. there seem to be many issues that people have with this, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can say what is right for everyone.. it seems to need to be looked at on an individual basis, and not by blanket lawing.

I have often wondered what happens to babies that die for various reasons when just days old.. I certainly can't believe that God denies them Heaven just because they haven't heard his Gospel and didn't choose to come to Him, so I would tend to believe that these children are taken care of..

Now, the problem comes when we try to balance the wants and needs of society in with certain Laws from God.. when we try to make physical moral destinctions over spritually moral issues. In effect, many times we end up taking on our own desires to see justice, instead of living with the command of "Love thy neighbor", and letting God deal with those that don't.

The people who choose to have abortions, and the people that do the operation, will have their day with God. No, it may not be right, and yes it may tear you up inside to think about it - but then so can going to a Third World country and seeing millions of starving, uneducated, living in squallor, children. For us to judge the people that make such decisions does not seem right.. ALL of us have made, and will probably make more mistakes in our lives, any one of them may be a damning sin.. Only God has the answer to our end.

No matter what we might think personally, pro life or pro choice, we cannot prevent these things from happening.. you make a law banning it, I can guarentee you will only have underground clinics where there is no regulation etc. People WILL make their own decisions.. as the Free Will given by God allows them to, but remember that these people are deserving of our love too.. just as we where deserving of Christs..

Even the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" was brought over into the NT and summerized within "Love thy neighbor"..

I beleive that it is this that Christ wants us to do, no matter what, and maybe understanding each person reasons for doing what they do, will allow us to fix what it is that causes the problem in the first place.. burying people under a pile of Laws, and moral condecention may feel good.. but isn't a Fruit of the Spirit.

Just my opinion..

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Dee Dee Warren
November 30th, 2002, 01:15 PM
Pardon me if get I bit blunt, but the idea of murdering babies does that to me.....


Rape pregnancies where the family will only destroy the child by lack of love anyway etc.. there seem to be many issues that people have with this, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can say what is right for everyone..

If I have four children, and find that I just don't like one of them, and fear that I will just be so bad to this kid that it will miserable for him, can I kill him?

And if you don't think that anyone can say what it right for everyone, then you have just excluded yourself from saying that statement for you are saying it is right for everyone not to say what is right for everyone. It is self-refuting.


burying people under a pile of Laws, and moral condecention may feel good.. but isn't a Fruit of the Spirit.


Really?? My Bible says that one of the functions of the Spirit is to convict the world of sin.

JCAtheist
November 30th, 2002, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Pardon me if get I bit blunt, but the idea of murdering babies does that to me.....


Being blunt is fine.. as long as we agree there is not a need for rudeness.. :)



If I have four children, and find that I just don't like one of them, and fear that I will just be so bad to this kid that it will miserable for him, can I kill him?

I have 2 children.. they where born in Love, and with that in mind. I take it your children where too.. Does God tell you that if you don't like one of them it would be okay to kill them? Your argument is made from a stance of passion, and I understand that.. but taking my words to places they never went does not make a point for you.

Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant? Do you know how devasting that is to someone? Do you truly believe YOU have the right to judge that person and then look down upon them from your supposedly sinless pedastal?

Or, are the commandments of your Christ not what you want to follow? "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself". Have you never ever been at a low point in life where a decision you have made has not been of God? Do you think that ALL the people who decide to abort a child do so "just because" they don't like the child? Please be real.. this is a passionate subject yes, but if you have never been in these peoples shoes, do you really believe you can cast final judgment upon them? Or is that Gods job?

Matthew 5:43-44
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor[1] and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

What of the commands you say give you the right to Judge?

Romans 13:9
For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."



And if you don't think that anyone can say what it right for everyone, then you have just excluded yourself from saying that statement for you are saying it is right for everyone not to say what is right for everyone. It is self-refuting.

DeeDee.. I have read a lot of your posts. You are a smart woman, and I respect your opinions - even if I don't go along with all of them. You know full well what I was getting at.. this is a pointless statement.. you know that I meant that no one person can say what is right for another.. and yes, I know that means me too. I said at the end of my post that it was an opinion. Please, lets try and remain within the context of what is being discussed, and not start picking apart the way people say things "just because".


Really?? My Bible says that one of the functions of the Spirit is to convict the world of sin.

Funny enough, my bible says that too.. but then my bible tells me that Christs message is what is important, and I try to define my views based upon THAT. And the verse that 'negates' the command to convict is listed above in Romans 13:9.

Now, I'll say again, my last post, and this post, are just opinions... and mine at that. They are not meant to be solutions to the worlds problems, they where my thoughts on the topic. Why is it that so many Christians are ready to jump down other peoples throats around here at the drop of a hat.. sheesh..

IN Love and Peace

JCAtheist

1013
November 30th, 2002, 02:52 PM
Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant? Do you know how devasting that is to someone?

what about that child? what if such a child was reading your post and he gets the impression that he is less worthy of love? So what if it took more grace for a mother to love such a child. He is still made in the image of God and carries all the dignity and worth that comes from that and has as much of a right to live and be happy and know that he is loved and cherished.


I take it your children where too..

*ahem*

you really need to read the first page of this thread.

JCAtheist
November 30th, 2002, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by 1013


what about that child? what if such a child was reading your post and he gets the impression that he is less worthy of love? So what if it took more grace for a mother to love such a child. He is still made in the image of God and carries all the dignity and worth that comes from that and has as much of a right to live and be happy and know that he is loved and cherished.

Yes, what about that child.. living in the womb, feeling hate and anger from the mother at having to bare them.. does it happen? Yes..

Who said they where unworthy of love? Putting words into my mouth doesn't change what I have said about how some of these people feel, and that THEY MAKE A MISTAKE AND MAYBE DECIDE TO ABORT (caps for large emphasis and not shouting).

Yes that child carries all that you say, and so when (just like a 5 year old innocent who gets hit by a drunk driver) this happens, God still takes care of them.. the price the person who commits the sin will be levied when they are judged by God, not by you and me.

Now, have I ever said that it was right? Did I say that I personally feel that pregnant women can go around taking the lives of their unborn for no more reason that 'they don't want them'? Please..

Of course these children deserve to be loved and cherished.. so.. how many rape victim children have you adopted lately? Or do you think that it is a Godly and healthy environment for them to stay with a parent or parents who does not love them, and did not want to carry them to term in the first place?

Too many people are ready to mouth off about other peoples mistakes to the point of condemnation and final judgement, but aren't prepared to step up to the plate and help. You believe you are completely and morally in the right, then instead of just talking the talk, go and adopt a few of these children yourself, and provide them the love and caring that their parents aren't giving them now.. I can supply you with at least 100 places where there are an over abundance of children waiting to be adopted by those that can't wait to condemn others... I'm sorry, people who "Love their neighbor.."

Plus, if you happen to see an unborn aborted child reading my posts, please alert me so I can apologise profusely to them for the act their mother and doctor committed upon them, and tell them that I will pray, as I do every night, for theirs and other childrens souls.

I happen to know what it is like to see innocent children die, before and after birth.. I nearly lost my oldest Son to his disease of Cystic Fibrosis, and sat in Hospital with him for the first 6 weeks of his life.. and in that childrens ward where a few babies of parents who did not want or plan them, but where convinced to carry full term. Still, other innocent children died due to illness or disease.. who takes the blame for them?

I was glad to see that some had come around and fallen in Love (the spirit of God) with their child and forgiven the circumstances.. but there where others that looked at those children with a palable feeling of pain and distress, and even hate. And that child will live with that feeling that it carried inside while in the womb, and if they are forced to stay with the parents, will grow up holding that hate.. yes, some get turned around, but if you think that the majority of these children have a happy ending, you are very sadly mistaken.

SO these children go for adoption.. where more people who really don't love them, try and look after them, and a load of other 'unwanted' children... who end up as more teenage pregnancies etc.

So yes, it is the parents and doctors faults that abortions take place when there is no 'valid' reason, and as I have stated, they will face their judgment with God. Gods only commands to us are to treat everyone with Love.. to treat people as WE wish to be treated.. with Love.. yes, some of these people may not deserve it in your eyes, but then, who is 'deserving' of Gods love and Grace? He gives it freely to all, just as Christ commanded us to.

Instead of condemning these people who have made such dire mistakes in their lives, would it not be better to treat them with love and the fruits of the Spirit, in the hope that they will come around? Is it it better to prejudge them and cast them into an un-loving hell before God has his final judgement?

No one is disputing the childs the innocent victim.. the only thing I'm disputing is how we then treat those that committed the crime, the reason for the crime, and the best solutions we can find for it. Plus the fact that none of us are perfect, and the thing we are discussing is a very personal thing for the person carrying. That's why I feel each case needs to be looked at individually, and if the parents decision is wrong, then someone has to step up to the plate to take care of that child.. not just throw them in some institution.. if the mothers life is in peril, we have no right to tell her to give her life up.. that MUST be her decision, just as it is her decision to come to, or go away from God. If you take the decision upon yourself, you carry the burden of the consequences, good or bad.

But I tire of this, arguing over whether or not the child deserves love, or whether or not it's right or wrong.. of course it isn't the best, or even the right thing to do, and obviously the children deserve love... I certainly hope no one is trying to say I think differently.. it has NOT been the reason for my opinion.

In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

PS - I can get passionate too.. a human weakness I'm told.. carnal :rolleyes:

And 1013, I did read the first page.. I said if the children that where born where obviously born in love, and in response to where she posted she has 4 children and posed a quesiton... I did not comment on the fate of the two in her first post. In fact, I was trying to avoid it, and avoid any personal 'positions'.

And, in case everyone is missing it, I am also saying that DeeDee deserved to get as much love and aid in her decisions as anyone could have given her.. giving up a child cannot be an easy thing to do. I sincerely hope she had some loving compassionate Christians around her that where able to give her love, and help her understand - without condemnation - her mistake.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist
November 30th, 2002, 03:42 PM
I see what you mean now, I did make a mistake in the posting when I put this:


I take it your children where too..

I was referring to the hyperthetical children, not DeeDee's children mentioned in her post..

Sorry if that confused what I was saying..

I know this is a very touchy subject.. I don't have a brother due to this, my wife doesn't have a child from a previous commitment, my sister denied me a nephew.. I'm not untouched by this.. even if it doesn't effect me physically personally.

All I wanted to do was express the feelings of Christ that we should have towards each other, no matter what our personal feelings are, and watch that we aren't allowing our emotions to run away with us because we are so deeply effected. Always give up the Fruits of the SPirit, and maybe others will learn to as well, and then these things won't need to be discussed..

My opinon.. sorry if it has offended anyone.

In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

firechyld
November 30th, 2002, 06:34 PM
To firechyld:
ROFL On page two you apologized to Dee Dee for butting into the discussion and said you were bowing out for good. You have since posted several times since. Now you are defending yourself. Since you can not be counted on to keep your word, and my request for you to stop posting only encouraged you to post again, you can be assured that this will be my last post to you on this thread. We will see which one of us can keep their word. Unless of course you become a Christian. as I said in my previous post.


Don't be deliberately obtuse. I backed away and removed myself from the debate. I have not attempted to make any moral stance, or to defend any position. Note my lack of involvement?

However, this doesn't prevent me from being interested in the course the thread is taking. Dee Dee certainly didn't post anything saying that non-Christians couldn't read the friggin' thread. When an issue (non-central in nature) was raised about which no overly definite material was presented, I made a brief, fact based post, allowing people to see some of the material they were referring to. Having done so, and not wishing to get involved in said discussion, I backed out again... only to be lambasted by you.



Firechyld,
I do remember a story on Fox about a government funded study that says there is a link between breast cancer and abortion. I did a quick search just now, but couldn't find it. I'll do more research tomorrow when I have time and try to get some links to you.

Also, this thread was originally intended to be for Christians only, and think that Dee Dee has made it abundantly clear that's what her wish is.

Now she has teeth and can enforce that "Christians only" on this thread.


Yup. See above. I was merely intending to provide a smidgeon of fact-based, non-emotive, non-involved postage to complement the moral musing provoked by the more emotionally involved and relevant posts. ;)

If you wish to dig up some resources, feel free to start a thread for 'em. Contrary to what jeremiah may think of me I'm not really getting my rocks off by posting on a thread I've said I'll not post on.... but that doesn't mean I'm not going to stick up for myself if accused of hijacking.

So, please, people.... if you must make with the personal insults, at least start a thread about me. ;) I think Freak has a How-To guide around here somewhere.

To get back on topic: Dee Dee, you were saying.....?

firechyld

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 06:35 AM
Now to respond to some of JCA’s comments:

I have thought on this issue often.. pro-life, pro-choice.. and what one should believe. Of course, this becomes a very personal matter, especially for Women, as they will bear the brunt of any decision made (although the man might after the decision).
Actually it is the baby that bears the brunt of the decision made. The decision is not whether or not to have a baby. The decision is whether or not to have a living baby or a dead baby. Since when is the decision to kill one’s child strictly a personal matter?


Obviously, on moral grounds, the extermination of an unborn child is a bad thing.
Obviously the murder of a baby is a bad thing.

However, most do seem to agree that there are instances where that decision should be left to the 'mother' - especially if her own life is in peril. Others will say that in some circumstances even aborting a early pregnancy because of the state of the 'parent(s)' may be necessary - brother/sister pregnancies, Rape pregnancies where the family will only destroy the child by lack of love anyway etc..
Murdering a baby because of the sin of one or both of his parents is dead wrong. There are people standing in line who would want to adopt such children. So it is better to murder a baby because a family allegedly won’t love it?? What if a family decides it cannot love its one year old… can they now kill him?

there seem to be many issues that people have with this, and to be honest, I don't think anyone can say what is right for everyone.. it seems to need to be looked at on an individual basis, and not by blanket lawing.
I have no problem saying that murdering babies is wrong for everyone. It amazes me that you do.


I have often wondered what happens to babies that die for various reasons when just days old.. I certainly can't believe that God denies them Heaven just because they haven't heard his Gospel and didn't choose to come to Him, so I would tend to believe that these children are taken care of..
This is pretty irrelevant to the issue of whether or not abortion is morally acceptable.

Now, the problem comes when we try to balance the wants and needs of society in with certain Laws from God.. when we try to make physical moral destinctions over spritually moral issues.
Are you claiming that murder is a spiritually moral issue rather than a physical moral issue? You are seriously confusing the issue. Why stop with babies? The issue is a physical behavior that can and must be regulated. The only truly “spiritual” issues that we cannot truly regulate is the internal beliefs of a person. I cannot legislate that someone must believe that murder is wrong, but we can certainly legislate that the act of murder is criminally wrong and punishable.

In effect, many times we end up taking on our own desires to see justice, instead of living with the command of "Love thy neighbor", and letting God deal with those that don't.
Do you have that same attitude toward those who kill adults? Should they not be imprisoned? Should we just let God deal with them? Isn’t the baby our “neighbor” as well who has the same unalienable rights granted by his Creator, the foremost being the right to life?

The people who choose to have abortions, and the people that do the operation, will have their day with God.
And the point is?? That we should not care?? That we should not punish crimes?

No, it may not be right, and yes it may tear you up inside to think about it - but then so can going to a Third World country and seeing millions of starving, uneducated, living in squallor, children. For us to judge the people that make such decisions does not seem right..
Do you feel is equally wrong to judge murderers of adults? Does the fact that there is other evil in the world justify the murder of anyone?? For us to NOT JUDGE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS is evil. This is said with the caveat that I have already recognized that many women have been deceived. They need to be educated not placated with nonsense. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil….” Isaiah 5:20

ALL of us have made, and will probably make more mistakes in our lives, any one of them may be a damning sin.. Only God has the answer to our end.
So we allow the murder of children?? This is sick. I am sorry but there is no other way to say it.


No matter what we might think personally, pro life or pro choice, we cannot prevent these things from happening.. you make a law banning it, I can guarentee you will only have underground clinics where there is no regulation etc.
Then let’s throw out all laws since none of them are one hundred percent effective. The FACT is that this was not a major problem WHATSOEVER during the period of time that abortion was illegal, and that THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL abortions were performed by licensed physicians. Let’s drop all homicide laws, people seem to be killing people anyways. And of course, regulated murder is much more moral than unregulated murder .

People WILL make their own decisions.. as the Free Will given by God allows them to, but remember that these people are deserving of our love too.. just as we where deserving of Christs..
Red herring, and a stinky one at that. Our love will tell them the truth…. that the murder of children is evil and reprehensible. Only the most evil of cultures tolerates the exploitation and murder of its most helpless members… the very young and the very old….

Even the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" was brought over into the NT and summerized within "Love thy neighbor"..
And the baby is NOT our neighbor somehow?? How is it loving to the baby to allow them to be legally murdered, most oftentimes for CONVENIENCE?

I beleive that it is this that Christ wants us to do, no matter what, and maybe understanding each person reasons for doing what they do, will allow us to fix what it is that causes the problem in the first place.. burying people under a pile of Laws, and moral condecention may feel good.. but isn't a Fruit of the Spirit.
Burn the statute books, and pass out copies of “I’m Okay, You’re Okay.”


I have 2 children.. they where born in Love, and with that in mind. I take it your children where too.. Does God tell you that if you don't like one of them it would be okay to kill them? Your argument is made from a stance of passion, and I understand that.. but taking my words to places they never went does not make a point for you.
The fact that your words never went to where I took them does not mean that they don’t logically lead there. You are advocating at worst, suggesting a neutral stance at best, towards the murder of children. I am just wondering why stop at children in the womb. Or is it okay to discriminate on the basis of age and location?


Where your children born from a rape? Have you ever had to carry a child born from rape? Would you be able to love a child born from a man who committed evil, killed a friend of yours, sodomized you, and then purposely gets you pregnant?
And how many pregnancies do you think really result from such a scenario?? Even abortion providers admit that at least 93% of abortions are done for convenience reasons (and I chose the most liberal number – others say 99%). And are you saying it is then okay to murder such a child because of the sins of his father? Whether or not I could love such a child has nothing to do with the morality of murdering him. There are other options, such as adoption. And funny you seem to be assuming that rape, murdering my friend, and such are wrong. Who are you to judge? Have you ever stood in that rapist’s shoes? Perhaps he just needed more love and not a pile of laws to condemn him… God will deal with him after all.

Do you know how devasting that is to someone? Do you truly believe YOU have the right to judge that person and then look down upon them from your supposedly sinless pedastal?
So, you somehow think it is better to allow such a person to become a murderer themselves?? And this is your idea of compassion? Do you know how devastating it is to someone to realize that they murdered their own children?? I do. Do you think YOU have the right to say it is better to have murdered your own child?? And you have a lot of nerve saying that last sentence about me if you have indeed read my opening post here. I am far from sinless…..

Or, are the commandments of your Christ not what you want to follow? "Love thy neighbor as you love thyself". Have you never ever been at a low point in life where a decision you have made has not been of God?
That is irrelevant to this discussion. And aren’t you being so judgmental… you see in order to determine that everyone has made decisions that are not of God requires you to judge such decisions.

Do you think that ALL the people who decide to abort a child do so "just because" they don't like the child? Please be real.. this is a passionate subject yes, but if you have never been in these peoples shoes, do you really believe you can cast final judgment upon them? Or is that Gods job?
Irrelevant. Do you think that all people who murder adults do so just because they don’t like the person? And I remind you, I HAVE BEEN IN SIMILAR SHOES. And where in the world are you getting the idea of final judgment?? Nice way to poison the well.

And, in case everyone is missing it, I am also saying that DeeDee deserved to get as much love and aid in her decisions as anyone could have given her.. giving up a child cannot be an easy thing to do. I sincerely hope she had some loving compassionate Christians around her that where able to give her love, and help her understand - without condemnation - her mistake.

Nice euphemism. I did not “give up” my children. I murdered them. I am glad that enough Christians loved me enough to tell me the truth, not placate me with feel-good liberalism. I have owned up and confessed my sin, and Christ has redeemed me. Christ will do the same for any other woman who has done the same. But this does not require a watering-down of the heinousness of the act. I believe I have fully repented precisely because I have fully owned up to what I did. I did not experience the true freedom of being released from that bondage until I did. This false compassion is not doing any women any favors, and is actually quite insulting. I deserve to know the truth and have to face up to the truth now…. For there will be no hiding the truth on Judgment Day.

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 07:16 AM
Alright, you prefer truth..

Your fried DD.. doesn't matter whgat you say ehre, or what you think you know about the bible.. your a murderer.. your screwed and going to hell with no repentence.. you are unsaved because of that sin which is unforgivable, you have no right to even try and explain the bible to anyone as it is a confusion to you, as you are a sinner who will never make it to heaven.

You want to go around persecuting yourself and feelng good about it, you go right ahead.. you want to push YOUR guilt onto others thats fine..

I never advocated killing babies, your rude spiteful argument and attempts to insinuate I think its fine, are just sad.

I didn't even bother reading past the first few paragraphs of your reply, as they aren't made with any caring in mind, or Christ..

I at least apologised if I offended..

Does it make you feel better to accuse other people of being as sad as you? Just because you are an unsaved murderer, it's okay for you to jump on everyone else..?? Just because YOU thought it was ok to take .. no MURDER your children, it's now okay to make decisions for other people?

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Before I felt compassion.. now I just feel sorry for you.

Sorry, if you prefer that version of the Truth.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 07:20 AM
In fact, all those loving people around you at the time, who you obvioulsy needed to berate you, where Christian whimps according to your logic.. they should have just killed you there and then:

Numbers 35:16
And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

Numbers 35:31[i]
Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Love an Peace

JCAtheist

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 07:43 AM
Are you always this incoherent?

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 07:46 AM
JCAtheist: I know that you are not going to take this well, but I need to point out that you are not a Christian in the sense that DDW meant to address this thread to. I know this because I spent a good deal of time on your website and learned about your beliefs.

I am happy to talk with you about those beliefs on another thread, but I just wanted you to realize that other people are aware of what you already know about yourself, that you are being duplicitous because YOU KNOW that you don't share the beliefs of the rest of the Christians on this thread.

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by JCAtheist
In fact, all those loving people around you at the time, who you obvioulsy needed to berate you, where Christian whimps according to your logic.. they should have just killed you there and then:

Numbers 35:16
And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he is a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.

Numbers 35:31[i]
Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Love an Peace

JCAtheist

I'd just like to point out that the laws that JCAtheist points out are good laws. Indeed, were these laws in place and swiftly enforced back when Dee Dee was pregnant, she's probably be the mother of two well-adjusted children instead of two corpses.

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 08:05 AM
Thank you Paul. That was a point I made before to Freak. In fact, if[those laws were in effect at the time, I would have thought twice about having premarital relations in the first place. I wish I had. I robbed my husband.

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 08:05 AM
Agreed Paul. You are right!

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Now to respond to some of JCA’s comments:

Actually it is the baby that bears the brunt of the decision made. The decision is not whether or not to have a baby. The decision is whether or not to have a living baby or a dead baby. Since when is the decision to kill one’s child strictly a personal matter?


Since when did it become the business of an unsaved murderess what other people do?


Me -Obviously the murder of a baby is a bad thing.

You - Murdering a baby because of the sin of one or both of his parents is dead wrong. There are people standing in line who would want to adopt such children. So it is better to murder a baby because a family allegedly won’t love it?? What if a family decides it cannot love its one year old… can they now kill him?


I'm sorry God, I didn't realise you wehre there in DeeDee's shoes, however, I am surprised that everything I say would be taken to extremes, but you are God after all, and free to do as you please.



I have no problem saying that murdering babies is wrong for everyone. It amazes me that you do.

That's right, I forgot I had banners in my post telling parents to go ahead and kill their kids.. I didn't realise you where this much of a sorry person.. I guess it just took the right debate/Thread to show your true colors.


This is pretty irrelevant to the issue of whether or not abortion is morally acceptable.

Anything is irrelevent apparently, but your own POV.


Are you claiming that murder is a spiritually moral issue rather than a physical moral issue? You are seriously confusing the issue. Why stop with babies? The issue is a physical behavior that can and must be regulated. The only truly “spiritual” issues that we cannot truly regulate is the internal beliefs of a person. I cannot legislate that someone must believe that murder is wrong, but we can certainly legislate that the act of murder is criminally wrong and punishable.

Bah.. you get worse as the post goes on. There are already LAWS in place from Man to handle the issue.. YOU just don't like them.. maybe you wheren't persecuted enough.. And no, I don't feel the LAW is doing all it should in this instance, and better limits and guidelines ought to be set. But it should be a controlled thing, not an underground occurence.. DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT IN MY EYES?.. NO YOU HATEFUL SPITEFUL PERSON WHO HAS THE AUDACITY TO CALL THEMSELVES A CHRISTIAN WHEN THEY ARE A MURDERER.


Do you have that same attitude toward those who kill adults? Should they not be imprisoned? Should we just let God deal with them? Isn’t the baby our “neighbor” as well who has the same unalienable rights granted by his Creator, the foremost being the right to life?

Sorry Oh great Judge, I forgot that you where commanded by Christ to forget about loving your neighbor if they are a murderer.. hence my change in stance with you, as apparently I have it all wrong.


And the point is?? That we should not care?? That we should not punish crimes?

Yes DeeDee..that's exactly what I said, gee your soo smart.


Do you feel is equally wrong to judge murderers of adults? Does the fact that there is other evil in the world justify the murder of anyone?? For us to NOT JUDGE THE PEOPLE WHO MAKE SUCH DECISIONS is evil. This is said with the caveat that I have already recognized that many women have been deceived. They need to be educated not placated with nonsense. “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil….” Isaiah 5:20[quote]

At least get the Verse in context.. I don't remember anyone calling evil good, or good evil.. just more of your philibustering because of your own Guilt. Your interpretation that it is EVIL for us not to judge goes unsupported by Scripture, and goes against the Commandments given by Christ..

But it is understandable you got it wrong, you are a self confessed sinner, a murderer, and seem to want to keep it that way.. you cannot love yourself, and therefore cannot love others.. or rather, you love everyone as you love yourself.. and it shows quite plainly that you don't.. unless you love murderer's..
[quote]
So we allow the murder of children?? This is sick. I am sorry but there is no other way to say it.

Yes, lets shall we! WHHHEEEEEE! Lets have a child murdering party.. hey you go first DeeDee, you have the experience apparently.

I'm sick of it too.. I'm sick of people filled with guilt for their own sins that they want to beat others over the head with them.. and be totally NON-Christian while doing so.

I don't advocate killing 'children', and no matter what you say or scream about or feel is right, there is nothing in the bible to address this issue, other than that one command Thou Shalt Not Murder..

Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Mark 12
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Sorry.. Just Christ talking for God.. he seems to think you have it wrong somewhere.. and that no matter what, you are to love your neighbor. I don't see room for your condescention.


Then let’s throw out all laws since none of them are one hundred percent effective. The FACT is that this was not a major problem WHATSOEVER during the period of time that abortion was illegal, and that THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL abortions were performed by licensed physicians. Let’s drop all homicide laws, people seem to be killing people anyways. And of course, regulated murder is much more moral than unregulated murder .

Another DeeDee tirade? Why stop there? The command is Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder.. hmm.. strangely, it doesn't say what.. I do hope yo don't step on an ant, or kill a wasp, over even sit and kill a microbe.. by the logic of extremes, that you appear to be using, that makes you a murderer too.. or is that an okay murder? THAT is okay in your eyes, even though it goes against the actual command? [even better English Sarcasm]MY DeeDee, you have been sooo right! We should put away the bible and listen to you now, forgetting of course that you are a self confessed - and still punishing yourself - murderer... YOU are to be our example! All Hail DeeDee![/even better English Sarcasm]


Red herring, and a stinky one at that. Our love will tell them the truth…. that the murder of children is evil and reprehensible. Only the most evil of cultures tolerates the exploitation and murder of its most helpless members… the very young and the very old….


Of course, people can't make mistakes.. like you did.. everyone now has to be of the new moral standard YOU are tooting because YOU want to punish people. The love and compassion in your heart is just overwhelming.. (oops, forgot the sarcasm brackets)


And the baby is NOT our neighbor somehow?? How is it loving to the baby to allow them to be legally murdered, most oftentimes for CONVENIENCE?

It is not loving, no. I never said it was. Your whole assumption and assertion tat it is that which I am saying, is ludicrous, un-Christian, and uncalled for. I merely pointed out that there are people like YOU in this world, who make bad mistakes in their lives, and although we can make laws of man to punish them, which we have (although not the best), these people will face their ultimate Judgement from God.. taking pleasure in their suffering NOW, by YOU, goes against Gods commandments as given above. No matter WHAT you want to say or think.


Burn the statute books, and pass out copies of “I’m Okay, You’re Okay.”

WHEEEEeee! More DeeDee rhetoric. If you only stopped to think for a minute, you would see that over half your post is just you being rude and sarcastic.. you wheren't asking for opinions on this thread apparently, you just wanted to spout your own rhetoric and opinion of guilt, and shove it down other peoples throats; so it seems.


The fact that your words never went to where I took them does not mean that they don’t logically lead there. You are advocating at worst, suggesting a neutral stance at best, towards the murder of children. I am just wondering why stop at children in the womb. Or is it okay to discriminate on the basis of age and location?

No, my words don't logically lead there, you took them there because of your own issues.

Sorry, about the age and location thing.. I sure do hope our next President is so righteously driven like yourself, that we go around a few other countries killing people who do what you did.. I'm sure that will make you feel a lot better.. an eye for an eye, is that it DeeDee? Maybe you are right, maybe we should just kill women before they even have a chance to get pregnant.. or maybe steralise all men so that this type of sad and sorry mistake, made by people like yourself, doesn't happen again. (damn those sarcasm brackets, forgot them again)


And how many pregnancies do you think really result from such a scenario?? Even abortion providers admit that at least 93% of abortions are done for convenience reasons (and I chose the most liberal number – others say 99%). And are you saying it is then okay to murder such a child because of the sins of his father? Whether or not I could love such a child has nothing to do with the morality of murdering him. There are other options, such as adoption. And funny you seem to be assuming that rape, murdering my friend, and such are wrong. Who are you to judge? Have you ever stood in that rapist’s shoes? Perhaps he just needed more love and not a pile of laws to condemn him… God will deal with him after all.

I have already said that each case would need to be looked at individually to decide if it was a convenience issue, or don't you bother to read properly?

And don't give me this self righteous "who are you to judge" crap.. take that plank out your own eye first.

I mentioned adoption, and even said I was willing to supply places where there is an over abundance of babies up for adoption, who are ending up in childrens homes and being mistreated and abused etc.. I agree with adoption.. your point?


So, you somehow think it is better to allow such a person to become a murderer themselves?? And this is your idea of compassion? Do you know how devastating it is to someone to realize that they murdered their own children?? I do. Do you think YOU have the right to say it is better to have murdered your own child?? And you have a lot of nerve saying that last sentence about me if you have indeed read my opening post here. I am far from sinless…..

You really didn't understand my post, and you really do seem to love going to extremes to make your point. I apologised if my post offended, as that wasn't it's intention. But you are above that apparently, and want to make me out to be some sort of criminal and murderer lover in the sense that there is no punishment.. how sad can you get.


That is irrelevant to this discussion. And aren’t you being so judgmental… you see in order to determine that everyone has made decisions that are not of God requires you to judge such decisions.

More rhetoric. I didn't make a judgment, I just gave you Gods Judgement on what and how you should behave.. as in the verses quoted above. If you feel that you are following those commandments, thats between you and God.. personally, from the way you have addressed me, and the things you seem so happy to hold on to, I don't feel you are.. but I don;t search hearts and minds, God does. You want to take that as a judgement, that's up to you.. you seemed to want a judgement though, you seem to want to be down on yourself, and everyone else..


Irrelevant. Do you think that all people who murder adults do so just because they don’t like the person? And I remind you, I HAVE BEEN IN SIMILAR SHOES. And where in the world are you getting the idea of final judgment?? Nice way to poison the well.


Don't you want to kill these people DeeDee? Isn't that your final goal? After all, what other punishment can there be for such a crinme? Killing is good .. killing other people for killing must be better.. sorry, that's just the logical conclusion to what you are saying.

And 'poison the well'.. my you are a riot.. If there is repentence for such a crime as murder, and you kill the murderer, you take away THEIR chance to repent.. if there is NO repentence for murderers, then how on earth do you get to star in a thread that requires "Christians"?



Nice euphemism. I did not “give up” my children. I murdered them. I am glad that enough Christians loved me enough to tell me the truth, not placate me with feel-good liberalism. I have owned up and confessed my sin, and Christ has redeemed me. Christ will do the same for any other woman who has done the same. But this does not require a watering-down of the heinousness of the act. I believe I have fully repented precisely because I have fully owned up to what I did. I did not experience the true freedom of being released from that bondage until I did. This false compassion is not doing any women any favors, and is actually quite insulting. I deserve to know the truth and have to face up to the truth now…. For there will be no hiding the truth on Judgment Day.

Sorry if you felt I was placating you.. I do hope my last few posts show you that I had no idea you preferred to have all this said. You think there is redemption for your crime, and yet you want to deny others that chance.. you want to say it's okay to hate others who make the same mistake YOU did, but somehow you deserved redemption.. You claim to be redeemed and once again a Christian, but cannot follow Christs commandments.. no one on EARTH had the rtight to redeem you, least of all yourself.. and I didn't realise that judegment day had come.

COunt yourself lucky that there where laws to protect you so that you had the chance to be redeemed.. becasue as I said, according to your own logic, you should have been killed right away, and your chances of realising you had done such a terrible thing would have burned with you in Hell.

Now, with all that said..

In my heart and mind, where Gods commands are written:

Hebrews 10:16
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(The commands I quoted above).. These tell me that your anger and desire for persecution of people because of the guilt of your sin, is NOT righteous. No matter what, you are to TRY and produce the fruits of the spirit..

Galatians 5
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

If you where indeed redeemed in Christ, you would at least attempt to produce those fruits.. your post to me is not one of those. Do you beleive that you now cannot sin?

I am sorry that you want to harbor such feelings for any person, such depth of apparent hatred.. you might want to call it passionate, what you are saying and doing, but I don't 'feel' that from you.. to much anger. And yes, THAT is MY opinon.

I stand by my first post.. the people who commit abortion are committing sin. We can make laws to prevent such things, which we have, and they will not make every judgement right. Each case needs to be decided individually, and those that are for convenience reasons, and other such inane reasons, should not be allowed to happen. Neither should they after a certain timeframe, unless the mother is in lifes jeopardy (which apparently becomes a dliemma for your logic.. do we KILL the mother to save the unborn child? Or allow the mother to decide?)

I'm also sorry that it had to go this far, I will certainly not hold back on the 'feel God.. er good liberalism' with you anymore.. oh wait, I might have to, seeing as Love is supposed to feel good, and that is what Christ wants me to do.

I sincerely hope you don't mind if I continue to love you and feel that you have redeeming qualities.. and I certainly hope you don't mind me saying that I'm happy that you weren't killed becasue of your mindless sin, and that you had a chance that your children never had (not that they needed it), to be redeemed.

I also hope you don't take offense to the fact that although I obviously abhor the crime of murder, I will do my best to live as Christ commanded me, and will pray and try and comfort those lost souls that will make such terrible mistakes, and hope that they too will be given the chance to come to God.

I apologise if this post upsets you, but you seemed to want a 'gut' and 'carnal' response..

I too am a sinner, not perfect, trying my best to do what is right in the eyes of our Lord.. I can only pray that Christ forgives both of us.

In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe


I'd just like to point out that the laws that JCAtheist points out are good laws. Indeed, were these laws in place and swiftly enforced back when Dee Dee was pregnant, she's probably be the mother of two well-adjusted children instead of two corpses.

Or killed before she had a chance to repent.

Hindsight is 20/20.. no one can say she wouldn't have done what she did, even with the laws.

The Death penalty has never been a good deterent.. just look around the world, and statistics in this country.. barely makes one whit of difference.

JCAtheist

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 08:53 AM
Apparently you are always that incoherent. A simple yes would have done, but your demonstration of that fact was amusing.

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 09:00 AM
over half your post is just you being rude and sarcastic

That's it?? I will have to try harder. Shame on me.

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 09:00 AM
Or killed before she had a chance to repent.


There is, of course, that possibility. In a just system, she would be given a day or so to get her spiritual house in order, during which time she would be presented the gospel. Such swift application of the death penalty would bring urgency to the choice of where one would spend eternity.



The Death penalty has never been a good deterent.. just look around the world, and statistics in this country.. barely makes one whit of difference.


Yes, let's look at Singapore, where the death penalty is swiftly implemented. Singapore has about the size and population of Los Angeles. Singapore has around 50 murders committed annually; L.A. has over 1,000.

And, as I like to look at it, the swift administration of the death penalty upon a murderer at least deters one murderer from murdering again.

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 09:01 AM
Any coherent Christians want to talk?

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by JCAtheist


Or killed before she had a chance to repent.

Hindsight is 20/20.. no one can say she wouldn't have done what she did, even with the laws.

The Death penalty has never been a good deterent.. just look around the world, and statistics in this country.. barely makes one whit of difference.

JCAtheist

It doesn't matter if it is a "good deterent" or not JCAtheist. It is "good" because it is God's Law.

And again, since you ignored me, Why are you on this thread? You know you are not a Christian.

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 09:04 AM
And lest we forget, there's always this bit of statistical evidence. (http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=122)

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe
And lest we forget, there's always this bit of statistical evidence. (http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=122)

Before these statistics or the idea of "deterents to crime" IAM said, "the murderer shall be put to death."

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 09:15 AM
Originally posted by Calvinist


Before these statistics or the idea of "deterents to crime" IAM said, "the murderer shall be put to death."

Amen!

But since arguments from Scripture hold no water with JCAtheist, we have to use the only authority he recognizes: raw data.

This naturally means that JCA's epistemology is going to be weak. As an ex-girlfriend wisely pointed out to me, "Statistics never lie, but statisticians often do." In other words, data can often be manipulated to support whatever worldview one holds to.

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:15 AM
Calvinist.. would you care to tell me what it is I beleive please? Do lay it out so I know... and where you get the idea that I am not Christian.

Paul, thank you for the chart.. it misses the explanations of the programs that went on those years by the courts and police that also reduced those crime statistics, but yes, I do agree that there is a change.

I also agree that it deters some people.. my mistake in being entirely literal in my representation of it.. I was caught up in the moment. But believing that it is ONLY that kind of punishment that effects those figures is incorrect. Things work differently in places like Singapore.. in Singapore, teachers are allowed to adminiter Corporal punishment, and there are other such controls placed on peoples lives that restrict them from getting to the point where they can do some of the things done in this country that allow such crimes to be easily committed.

You have to evaluate the whole system to understand why things are the way they are.. in a way, a chart is like a poll.. it can be made to say a lot of things, while leaving out supporting evidence around it. Not that your chart is incorrect, but it doesn't show the corelations.

Still, points well taken.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe


Amen!

But since arguments from Scripture hold no water with JCAtheist, we have to use the only authority he recognizes: raw data.

This naturally means that JCA's epistemology is going to be weak. As an ex-girlfriend wisely pointed out to me, "Statistics never lie, but statisticians often do." In other words, data can often be manipulated to support whatever worldview one holds to.

Now I'm put down to scripture holding no water with me... oh great argument..

What about the scripture *I* quoted? That holds no water either?

*checks the calendar* Oh I forgot it was 'bear false witness against JCA day' today.

Should you be killed for that sin? :rolleyes:

JCAtheist

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by JCAtheist


Now I'm put down to scripture holding no water with me... oh great argument..

What about the scripture *I* quoted? That holds no water either?

*checks the calendar* Oh I forgot it was 'bear false witness against JCA day' today.

Should you be killed for that sin? :rolleyes:

JCAtheist

Nope. "Bearing false witness" applies directly to one's behavior in a court of law.

And if Scripture does in fact hold water with you, my mistake. I saw one portion of your site that drew a false dichotomy between following "Joshua" (Jesus) or the Bible. I thought by that you meant you didn't hold the Bible as any sort of authority. Again, my mistake if I was wtrong.

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by JCAtheist
Calvinist.. would you care to tell me what it is I beleive please? Do lay it out so I know... and where you get the idea that I am not Christian.

JCAtheist

All I did was read your web page. I will give you that you are Disciple of Christ in the sense that you consider yourself to be a disciple of Jesus, the man. But this thread means to invite people who are Christians in the sense that most Christian Churches understand that word. You are disguising yourself and being duplicitous.

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:29 AM
Yes Paul, had you have read the WHOLE site, you would find that I only mean that when talking about most of MANS interpretation of the bible and it's authority.. I don't care for the arguments about Trinitarinism, or Dualities etc.. Mans arguments.. and frankly, not needed for Salvation.. but Christians argue with Christians about it, and defame and called each other unsaved..

THAT is the Christianity I mention and talk about on my site..

And yes, as I say, had you read it all, you might understand me and that a little better.

Sorry if I 'sound' upset.. 2d posts tend to remove 'feeling'.. I'm not angry or upset with you for your first conclusions.. but I do want you to know that yes, you didn't have me down right.

As for the court of law thing.. isn't that what this is like? Aren't I being judged now because of my comments? Aren't there more than one of you sitting there condemning me?

In my eyes, such a place of this is as bad, if not worse than court of law.. at least there I can expect certain rules to be applied, and fair play (well.. lets not get into that here).. here it is a courtroom without the ability to say "I object", because there is nothing to uphold it.. and even using scripture in my defense is ignored.

But to me, this is just as much a court, yes.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by Calvinist


All I did was read your web page. I will give you that you are Disciple of Christ in the sense that you consider yourself to be a disciple of Jesus, the man. But this thread means to invite people who are Christians in the sense that most Christian Churches understand that word. You are disguising yourself and being duplicitous.

And you are just plain incorrect. There are many denominations and individual Churches that agree with what I have said, and there are people who have read the whole site, and understand what I have said there.. the fact that you don't doesn't make you right.

I have stated here before what my beliefs are.. for you to come and judge differently, without ever asking me, and jumping to conclusions, shows a lack of understanding on your part what this is all about.

However, I'm sure you enjoy attacking peoples characters.. that too is a fruit of YOUR Church I suppose.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:38 AM
JCAtheist on the Bible:
"Now we all know that the Bible is supposedly divinely inspired. Don't we? I thought we did. However, it seems that if this was the word of God as he intended it to be, one would think that there wouldn't be so many flaws."

The Bible is full of flaws.


JCAtheist on Jesus' existence:
"In fact, there is no real proof that Jesus (or Joshua if you want to be correct - Jesus is the Greek translation) ever really existed outside of the Bible. Although, the debate has apparently gone on a while. Somehow I don't see it ending anytime soon."

"Let's move on though, and assume that there was this person, and that his teachings sparked off a small revolution in the minds of those around at the time..."

Okay, JC just "moves on" and assumes he existed... nice theology for a "Christian."

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 09:40 AM
With all due respect can we move this discussion elsewhere?? I would like to keep this thread on target. If JC unreservedly accepts the Deity of Christ then he would qualify to post here despite all his other incoherence. If he does not, he is not a Christian and should not be posting here.

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:41 AM
My point exactly DDW. What do you say JCAtheist? Jesus (actually exists) is Divine or not?

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
With all due respect can we move this discussion elsewhere?? I would like to keep this thread on target. If JC unreservedly accepts the Deity of Christ then he would qualify to post here despite all his other incoherence. If he does not, he is not a Christian and should not be posting here.

Yes DeeDee, I do. Besides the point of my site, and some of the things it says - which, if asked about, I am willing to explain..

But anyway, In the sense that I believe the divinity of Christ, his purpose and resurrection, and the two Commandments given to us by Him, I am a Christian.

I will remove myself from this thread now. I had no intention of upsetting you, or trying to. I was merely expressing my opinion. Unfortunately, you appeared to have taken what I was saying out of context, and instead of maybe seeing the comapssion in my words as it was meant, took that compassion and placed it in something I wasn't expressing, or felt needed to be expressed again. I apologise if that offended you.

I wish you all the best, and hope you will allow others the chance you have been given.. to come to God.

In Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:50 AM
That's it. I'm a making a thread on this guy.

Dee Dee Warren
December 2nd, 2002, 09:52 AM
I would be interested in seeing it. He seems to talk quite incoherently out of both sides of his mouth.

Brother Vinny
December 2nd, 2002, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Calvinist
That's it. I'm a making a thread on this guy.

I wait eagerly. :D

JCAtheist
December 2nd, 2002, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Calvinist
My point exactly DDW. What do you say JCAtheist? Jesus (actually exists) is Divine or not?

Calvinist.. you once 'tested' me... and you speak about being duplicitous.. what kind of person are you? How two faced can you get..

Now I know why you had to say what you said in the other thread.. you where a rude person there, and you aren't much better now it seems.

Sorry DeeDee.. I dislike this persons lack of honor and integrity, and had to address it.. if no one responds to me here, I will have no need to return. If that person feels they need to continue their ignorant thoughts, please feel free to take it to PM, and not bother the community with such un-christian antics.

Love and Peace

JCAtheist

Calvinist
December 2nd, 2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by JCAtheist


Calvinist.. you once 'tested' me... and you speak about being duplicitous.. what kind of person are you? How two faced can you get..

JCAtheist

The test was about your sincerity, of that I have no doubts. Your Christianity, I have doubts.

Iamme
October 25th, 2003, 09:39 AM
Dee Dee--Freaks right when he says this way back in the first few pages, I have heard of others also who have named their deceased children

[You said: I am not a woman with no children, I am a woman with two deceased children who I do firmly believe are waiting for me with Christ.
You are correct. You do have two children whom are with the Lord Jesus. Those beautiful babies love you, Dee Dee. For they are present in perfect love. They know of nothing else.
You continue: They have no gravestone or memory. They have no names.
Dee Dee, ever thought of naming your beautiful children? Or holding a funeral on their behalf for some closure?]

Maybe pray and ask your Lord what their names are, I am sure he will tell you

Myself, Thursday I over heard one of my workmates talking of his ex wifes new pregnancy, he said she wanted her alimony so she could terminate. He gave it to her next morning and it went ahead, whole thing happened so quickly I did not even get a chance to talk with them. All I can think is can't they understand what it is that we do when we terminate a child by abortion, can't they understand that we are made in the image of God, so fearfully and marvelously made. How awesome a thing (Psalm 139)
I will not give up on them, somehow I want to reach out to them with the love of the Father who still loves them. Somehow.