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Knight
October 17th, 2002, 05:44 PM
Some people assert that lying is a sin. And I agree that lying CAN be sinful. But is lying ALWAYS sinful?

I assert lying is not necessarily a sin and in fact lying can be righteous!

I think we all agree that when your wife (or husband) asks... "How did you like the spinach pizza?" A good ol' white lie like... "The spinach pizza was great however did you think of that?" Is more than appropriate.

But what makes a righteous lie??

Imagine a German family hiding some jewish children in their basement hoping to save them from the Holocaust. Then imagine that the Nazi's come to the door on a tip that their are Jews at this location.

Which of the following is sinful?

A. Lying to the Nazi officers by telling them that there are no Jews in your basement.

or....

B. Telling the truth and allowing the Nazi officers to take away the hiding Jewish children in your basement so they can be slaughtered.

It is obvious in the above case telling the truth would be SINFUL!

In the Bible we read...
Exodus 1:15 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of one was Shiphrah and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said, “When you do the duties of a midwife for the Hebrew women, and see them on the birthstools, if it is a son, then you shall kill him; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live.” The King of Egypt ordered the Hebrew midwives to murder baby Hebrew males at birth.

But the Hebrew midwives told a righteous lie to save babies!
Exodus 1:17 But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18 So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, “Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?” 19 And the midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them.” 20 Therefore God dealt well with the midwives, and the people multiplied and grew very mighty. 21 And so it was, because the midwives feared God, that He provided households for them. God blessed the midwives for their righteous lie.

Some think that "Thou shall not lie" is one of the 10 commandments. It is not.
Exodus 20:16 “ You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Bearing false witness is a type of lying but it is a specific type of lying that makes it sinful.

Lying is only sinful when the motivation is sinful.

Thoughts?

Brother Vinny
October 17th, 2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Sheepdog
Rahab lied by faith.

In her job, she lied by a lot of people.

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 05:55 PM
Just so you all know.....

I LOVE everything April cooks.

GraceInMe
October 17th, 2002, 05:58 PM
Who's April?

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:00 PM
April is my Veronica AND Betty.

Brother Vinny
October 17th, 2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by GraceInMe
Who's April?

Only the best breakfast-sandwich maker I've ever encountered. Oh, and she's also Knight's wife.

Brother Vinny
October 17th, 2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Knight
April is my Veronica AND Betty.

< suddenly doesn't want to know >

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:04 PM
Knight,

You're nuts! :D

I agree with the Hebrew women who didn't kill the Hebrew male children, but they were obeying God rather than man. As for those hiding the Jews from the Nazi's, these people were protecting the Jews. The Lord was using those people to protect His people.

And notice how I got right in and commented? Good for me.

GraceInMe
October 17th, 2002, 06:05 PM
Cool.....Is there a pic. of her?

Em7add11
October 17th, 2002, 06:05 PM
I like spinach pizza.

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Em7add11
I like spinach pizza.
I may like spinach pizza, too. I like spinach.

GraceInMe
October 17th, 2002, 06:07 PM
I think it is ok to lie in certain instances. I always tell my mother in law I am happy to see her!

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by GraceInMe
Cool.....Is there a pic. of her? Ignore the fat dude. (http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=118)

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by s9s27s54
Knight,

You're nuts! :D

I agree with the Hebrew women who didn't kill the Hebrew male children, but they were obeying God rather than man. As for those hiding the Jews from the Nazi's, these people were protecting the Jews. The Lord was using those people to protect His people.

And notice how I got right in and commented? Good for me. So what are you saying???

Are you saying it would be wrong to lie to the NAZI's but RIGHT to tell the truth and turn over the Jewish children?

Em7add11
October 17th, 2002, 06:12 PM
I always tell my mom that school was "fine."

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Knight
So what are you saying???

Are you saying it would be wrong to lie to the NAZI's but RIGHT to tell the truth and turn over the Jewish children?
No. It's right to lie in certain instances, I guess. I don't think it would be rigtht to hand over the Jewish children.

GraceInMe
October 17th, 2002, 06:17 PM
Knight thats a great picture. She is beautiful.:thumb:

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by s9s27s54

No. It's right to lie in certain instances, I guess. I don't think it would be rigtht to hand over the Jewish children. Oh... OK....

So we are in agreement?

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Oh... OK....

So we are in agreement?
I don't want to really admit it, but I guess we are. You didn't hear it from me, ok?

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by GraceInMe
Knight thats a great picture. She is beautiful.:thumb: Danke.

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by s9s27s54

I don't want to really admit it, but I guess we are. You didn't hear it from me, ok? Hey what is that supposed to mean?

I thought we were buds!!!? :(

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:33 PM
QUOTE]Knight said: Hey what is that supposed to mean?[/QUOTE]
I don't want to admit you're right because I don't like lying. I disapprove of it.




I thought we were buds!!!? :(
We are. We can be even better buds now if you don't say anything.

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by s9s27s54

Knight said: Hey what is that supposed to mean?
I don't want to admit you're right because I don't like lying. I disapprove of it.




We are. We can be even better buds now if you don't say anything. With that avatar how can I refuse?

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:39 PM
[[/QUOTE]With that avatar how can I refuse? [/QUOTE]
I guess I shouldn't change it yet, huh? Maybe I should keep this for a while. I was going to change it to an eagle. What do you think?

s9s27s54
October 17th, 2002, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Sheepdog
I think you should go with
Maybe I should go with something cute.

anna
October 17th, 2002, 07:08 PM
Isn't there another example of lying in Jeramiah. Doesn't Jeramiah lie to a false prophet?
ac

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 07:35 PM
The problem I see with the argument is that they are both lies. Based on a greater evil, the lesser evil is overlooked. ie.

Proverbs 6:30 (NKJV)
30 People do not despise a thief If he steals to satisfy himself when he is starving.

One would conclude that stealing is righteous if a man is hungry. But what if the man stole food from a starving child to eat for himself, he would be despised. So the argument that is used that sin can be righteous depending on the circumstance would be to validate that everything is relative.

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 07:41 PM
Yx... who are you talking to?

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 07:43 PM
Myself!


I found the thread 3 pages too late...so I am attempting a debate with myself as it were.

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 07:44 PM
So far I agree with myself.

anna
October 17th, 2002, 07:54 PM
So the argument that is used that sin can be righteous depending on the circumstance would be to validate that everything is relative.

Good point :thumb:
I agree with this line of thinking. My post was out of curiosity.
ac

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by anna
So the argument that is used that sin can be righteous depending on the circumstance would be to validate that everything is relative.

Good point :thumb:
I agree with this line of thinking. My post was out of curiosity.
ac Saying that " ...everything is relative." would be a gross overstatement.

However...

One might say....

Lying is sinful only relative to it's motivation. (righteous or sinful)

Goose
October 17th, 2002, 08:41 PM
I thought "Thou shalt not lie" was a commandment....

;)

Jaltus
October 17th, 2002, 08:56 PM
I think lying is wrong.

Did Jesus ever lie?

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:02 PM
That is relative...or a matter of interpretation I would say.

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:03 PM
I mean that spot about the temple.......you know.......the Pharisees were pretty baffled..........

Jaltus
October 17th, 2002, 09:05 PM
John makes it pretty clear what Jesus meant.

Besides, allusion is not lying, nor are parables.

Did Jesus ever lie?

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Goose
I thought "Thou shalt not lie" was a commandment....

;) But "Thou shalt not steal" is.

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus

Did Jesus ever lie?
Are you making a serious point to my sarcastic comments?


ok...Jaltus I submit.

Knight
October 17th, 2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus
I think lying is wrong.

Did Jesus ever lie? So you think lying is wrong under ANY circumstance?

Freak
October 17th, 2002, 09:35 PM
Lying is permissable if one is adhering to a higher law-the law of love.

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:38 PM
Do you often lie about your exorcisms and evangelistic successes?

Freak
October 17th, 2002, 09:44 PM
No.

Yxboom
October 17th, 2002, 09:59 PM
Is that a lie?

smilax
October 17th, 2002, 10:16 PM
Did Jesus ever lie?I'm not disagreeing, just trying to spark a bit more discussion, so don't flame too much for these sticks of wood.

John vii, 8-10: "Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come. When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret."

You can interpret this in at least three ways.

1. Christ's time had indeed not yet come when they asked, which is why He responded that way, but that had changed after they left. Note that there is some textual evidence that the "yet" is a later addition.
2. This is part of a Johannine theme of Jesus transcending mundane affairs. This also ties in with the constant retreating from the masses or responding to questions with obscure, spiritual answers.
3. What is actually happening is the practice of equivocation, which was done to avoid public conflict out of a collectivist mindset. As such, it was commonplace to say one thing and do a completely other.

One might argue that the last one makes most sense because it takes the cultural context into account. If so, then the moral hierarchy is justified; one would be allowed to lie for the sake of a higher purpose, (for example, to save lives,) and it would not be counted immoral at all, but rather honorable.

Jaltus
October 18th, 2002, 09:47 AM
Yes, Knight, I think lying is wrong under any circumstances.

There is a story about how German troops invaded a house where Jews were being hidden. There was a hidden basement in the house. The Germans asked if there were any Jews hiding in the house, and a little girl told them they were hiding under the table. Seeing that the table was about 4 foot in diameter, the Germans laughed, looked under the table, and left.

Of course, the Jews were under the table, since the table was above the entrance to the hidden basement.

God honors the truth. How can we say we follow Christ, who is the Truth embodied, if we do not honor the truth as well?

Frankly, I see all your little reasons for lying as rationalizing what the flesh wants to do.

Mind you, lying is different from misleading. Such as:

If a car is stopped going from one country to another, trying to smuggle Bibles in, and the border guards ask if you have any Bibles hidden in your car, I would not answer yes, I would say if you find any, then I guess I have some. Not answering directly is not lying.

cirisme
October 18th, 2002, 09:49 AM
Yes, Knight, I think lying is wrong under any circumstances.

There is a story about how German troops invaded a house where Jews were being hidden. There was a hidden basement in the house. The Germans asked if there were any Jews hiding in the house, and a little girl told them they were hiding under the table. Seeing that the table was about 4 foot in diameter, the Germans laughed, looked under the table, and left.

Of course, the Jews were under the table, since the table was above the entrance to the hidden basement.

Amen. :thumb:

s9s27s54
October 18th, 2002, 09:53 AM
I guess that's what I wanted to say is what Jaltus said.

geralduk
October 19th, 2002, 04:16 AM
If the devil is the FATHER of all lies.
and the fall of man is the result of BELIEVEING A LIE rather than the truth.
How then can a lie be JUSTYFIED!?
a HALF TRUTH is also a LIE.
A white lie is also one.
The devil was cast out of heaven BECAUSE the 'day' came when the "truth was not in Him"
God DEMANDS the we be TRUTHFULL both INWARDLY and OUTWARDLY.
A false witness(a Liar) is also one of the things God ABHORS.
So if 'ALL' the scriptures point ONE way(NOT LYING) and you get one or two verses seemingly saying the contrary and God blessing it .
Then you have to look again.
Because God CANNOT bless a lie.
nor does a blessing come from one.
nor any good.
for the SEED of a LIE comes from the devil.
and its planted and brigns forth after its own kind.
Jesus came to destroy THE WORKS OF THE DEVIL.
and those WORKS are the FRUIT of the SEED planted.
So you have the GOOD seed of God.
and the SEED which brings forth "tares"
and it is when men SLEEP that the 'tares' are sown.
As for being faced with a situation which 'DEMANDS' we lie(as some may think)
What does the scripture say?
"No man is tempted beyond his strength but in the temptation God will give a way out."
Now if we are 'sleeping' we may not 'see' the way out.
But that does not mean it is not there.
But if we are filled with the Spirit and WALKING in the Spirit we will NOT fullfill the lusts of the flesh(lie) but find that ONE way and walk in it.

cirisme
October 19th, 2002, 08:06 AM
Yx,

Is that a lie?

I'd venture to say yes. :)

geralduk
October 21st, 2002, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Lying is permissable if one is adhering to a higher law-the law of love.

This is initself a lie!

How can a person who has indwelling the SPIRIT of TRUTH speak a LIE?
Love does not lie but speaks the truth.

For if God is LOVE then on your argument He must lie!
Which is the ONLY thing HE CANT do!

It clearly says in scripture that the DEVIL is the FATHER of all lies.

So how can LOVE which is of God be the father of it!?

Now the "LOVE of the wicked is cruel"the scriptures say.
So perhaps that is the 'love' you are talking about?

Arminian
October 21st, 2002, 12:31 PM
David was a man after God's own heart. Scripture says that David played the liar to calm Saul. Therefore, I conclude that it's OK to lie, just as long as you are only playing.

hehehe:D

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus
Yes, Knight, I think lying is wrong under any circumstances.
So you think it was wrong for the Hebrew midwives to lie to the Egyptian King?

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 12:40 PM
Yes, but as the greater evil would be the massacre of Hebrew children. The lesser evil (lying) was eclipsed by the consequence of the greater evil that would result.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 12:43 PM
Otherwise if lying which is wrong ever had a circumstance where it was right would result in the banishment of absolute since by circumstance everything is relative. Sin can be righteous given the right circumstances, would undermine God's absolute and therefore call into question what were you trying to prove in the Battle Royale against Zakath.

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 12:50 PM
Yx, absolutes are absolutes but there is a higher absolute-the law of love. If lying, as the Midwives did, serves to minister love then the law of love supersedes.

Pilgrimagain
October 21st, 2002, 12:53 PM
How about the idea that perhaps a lie was justified, but is still wrong.

It's like the Bonhoeffer example. He knew that to plot the assasinatino of another human was murder, he knew it was sin and deliberate sin, but waying the consequences he decided that the attempt to kill Hitler he was involved with was justified though ultimately sinful.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Yx, absolutes are absolutes but there is a higher absolute-the law of love. If lying, as the Midwives did, serves to minister love then the law of love supersedes. That makes no sense....if there are higher absolutes than the stated absolute, they are NOT absolutes. Absolutes by definition can not have any higher absolute than itself nor can there be an instance that an absolute is no longer absolute otherwise it would cease to be absolute! :doh:

servent101
October 21st, 2002, 01:06 PM
To me a Christian has to grow into their faith. If it is possible to keep the peace only by telling a lie, that is what has to be done, at least in most circumstances. One can also win the argument, but loose the person. There are good scriptures quoted in this thread, scriptures that at least on the surface show that yes God's people do lie, and that lie is for temporary gain. We don't live in heaven right now, and "some people are so heavenly minded that they are of no earthly good. " Possibly you have heard this before.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 01:19 PM
Just because absolutes exist.... does not mean EVERYTHING is absolute.

Lying is NOT an absolute.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
Otherwise if lying which is wrong ever had a circumstance where it was right would result in the banishment of absolute since by circumstance everything is relative. Sin can be righteous given the right circumstances, would undermine God's absolute and therefore call into question what were you trying to prove in the Battle Royale against Zakath. Only if one assumed (erroneously) that lying was absolutly wrong.

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 01:27 PM
Yx,

Many things in the Scriptures make no sense to the mind, like the Trinity-three in one. But the reality is there is a higher law, a law of love that supersedes absolutes. For example, if a woman and her children are being physically abused by her husband/father I believe she has the right to divorce her husband (though the Scriptures speak of only two allowances of divorce-unfaithfulness & abadonment) because of the higher law of love.

And God is love. God is above all absolutes.

Arminian
October 21st, 2002, 01:39 PM
The midwives were blessed because they "feared the Lord" (Ex. 1:21) -- not because they lied. They feared falling into the hands of the living God after killing his children more than they feared Pharaoh.

Btw, I hate the spelling of "Pharaoh."

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 01:58 PM
Freak said,



And God is love. God is above all absolutes.


Is God absolutely above all absolutes?

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:10 PM
God is above all-including absolutes.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Freak
God is above all-including absolutes.

Is God absolutely above all-- including absolutes?

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:19 PM
God is above all.

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:20 PM
He is outside time, space, and absolutes. You are attemtping to put Him within some absolute. He is above it.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Freak
God is above all.

Amen. But isn't that an absolute statement you've just made?

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:23 PM
Yes, I made a absolute statement. But God is above it. Think about it. Or better yet think out of your absolute box.

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:29 PM
For example: Lying is wrong. It is a absolute.

However, within the law of love, God allows that absolute to be suspended for there is higher law-a law of love. God is outside absolutes. He is not limited.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Yes, I made a absolute statement. But God is above it. Think about it. Or better yet think out of your absolute box.

If God is above the absolute statement, isn't this yet another absolute statement about God?

I have to disagree. God isn't above absolutes; rather, He's the standard by which many of our absolutes are set. God is absolute good; the relative goodness of all men will be measured against that absolute goodness.

We know from Scripture that God cannot deny Himself. This is another absolute statement that God is not "above."

Proof that God is not above absolutes is that you, Freak, keep using absolute definitions to describbe Him. He is either absolutely above absolutes-- which is a rational impossibility, like creating a rock heavier than He can lift-- or He isn't.

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 02:39 PM
God is above all of "our" absolutes.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Freak
God is above all of "our" absolutes.

Ah, but is He above His own absolutes-- the ones I described above?

Prisca
October 21st, 2002, 02:44 PM
Has God Himself ever lied, tricked or mislead anyone?

cirisme
October 21st, 2002, 02:56 PM
God is above all.

Is He above "the law of love"?

And, are YOU above lying?

:angel:

cirisme
October 21st, 2002, 02:59 PM
Let's say one of our Unitarian friends decided that he was going to go to the law of love and not worry about lying about rejecting Jesus as God.

His motives are about love, He wants to show us how we are (supposedly) Biblically wrong.

Wouldn't he be exempt of the rules under your theory, freak?

Freak
October 21st, 2002, 03:42 PM
Becky,

God is not the father of lies but Satan is. Lying is a absolute. It is wrong according to Collossians 3:9. But lying can be suspended to bring about the motion of love.

Jaltus
October 21st, 2002, 06:00 PM
God is not above His own character, He is his own character.

Titus 1:2
2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

GOD DOES NOT LIE!

If God does not lie, and this would include Jesus unless you are a Uni, then we are called to not lie as well.

I John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in Him must walks as Jesus did.

I want to walk like Jesus, not like man. Man lies, God does not.

smilax
October 21st, 2002, 06:06 PM
Hebrews vi, 18: "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us."

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus
God is not above His own character, He is his own character.

Titus 1:2
2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

GOD DOES NOT LIE!

If God does not lie, and this would include Jesus unless you are a Uni, then we are called to not lie as well.

I John 2:6
Whoever claims to live in Him must walks as Jesus did.

I want to walk like Jesus, not like man. Man lies, God does not.

So, unlike Corrie Ten Boom, you'd turn Jews over to the Nazis to be killed rather than tell a lie. Is this what you're saying, Jaltus?

s9s27s54
October 21st, 2002, 06:18 PM
This getting to complicated for me.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe
God isn't above absolutes; rather, He's the standard by which many of our absolutes are set. God is absolute good; the relative goodness of all men will be measured against that absolute goodness.

We know from Scripture that God cannot deny Himself. This is another absolute statement that God is not "above."

Based on PaulD's excellent observation of absolutes...if God is the standard of absolute and Scripture states that God can NOT lie.

Than Knight faces the problem of rectifying that God is the standard of absolutes, God can not lie and....


Originally posted by Knight
Lying is NOT an absolute.

GraceInMe
October 21st, 2002, 07:02 PM
I am absolutely confused!:confused:

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 07:12 PM
Are you absolutely sure that is not a lie?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom

Based on PaulD's excellent observation of absolutes...if God is the standard of absolute and Scripture states that God can NOT lie.

Than Knight faces the problem of rectifying that God is the standard of absolutes, God can not lie and....

Huh????

Lying is not an absolute either way. It makes no difference whether God can or cannot lie.

If lying were absolutely wrong God would have been disappointed that the Hebrew midwives lied to the Egyptian King.

You see....... murder is absolutely wrong because by definition murder insinuates "evil intent". Lying is not absolutely wrong because lying does NOT insinuate "evil intent".

Some lies have good intent, other lies are down right necessary to avert evil, and yet other lies are indeed wrong. Therefore lying is NOT an absolute. To think otherwise defies all convention.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Paul DeYonghe


So, unlike Corrie Ten Boom, you'd turn Jews over to the Nazis to be killed rather than tell a lie. Is this what you're saying, Jaltus? I have attempted to get him to answer this question several times now. Jaltus?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Becky,

God is not the father of lies but Satan is. Lying is a absolute. It is wrong according to Collossians 3:9. But lying can be suspended to bring about the motion of love. Col 3:9 does not state that lying is absolutely wrong. It simply states that as a general rule it is wrong to lie to one another. Which I of course agree with. If you should tell the truth than YOU SHOULD TELL THE TRUTH!!!!

However.. there are times when it would be EVIL to tell the truth.

And many examples have been given on this thread.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 07:29 PM
Knight's right.

In addition, one has to take into account just who God is. He doesn't lie partly because He doesn't have to. He wants to protect some people, He just makes them invulnerable, takes them to heaven, or any other number of ways.

We, as humans, have considerably more limited resources.

Brother Vinny
October 21st, 2002, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Knight
I have attempted to him him to answer this question several times now. Jaltus?

Love-Master J gets to step forward to see if he's genuinely worthy of the title.

C'mon, Jaltus. I'm interested in your reply.

Prisca
October 21st, 2002, 08:02 PM
I was thinking of the following account found in 1Kings and in 2Chr. It is true that God does not lie in this account, but He does seem to seek to deceive King Ahab:

2Chr. 18:18-22 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the LORD said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.’ Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

Anyone got a different take on this?

Goose
October 21st, 2002, 08:45 PM
God and Deception

I can recall a time in the bible where God did strange things to deceive or lie to His people's enemies. I can also recall where God struck people with blindess or even straight way killed someone, but those two are beside the point. Is this deception against the enemy similar to lying? Is God manifesting the truth? Think about what if you had a family of jews living in your attic during WWII in Nazi Germany. Suddenly, there's a knock at the door, and it's the German Police asking you if you're quartering jews. What do you respond with? Deception? Which answer is working righteousness?

Because it seems that God played an active role in his interaction with human kind. God didn't always play 'fair' in man's eyes. He protected and made provision for His chosen. His action is the truth. Righteous and judgemental. Our action, with the gift of grace and the Holy Spirit can work righteousness.

It seems to me, that the real question is whether you want to be active in doing what is right, or passive, by just letting things "play out".

I made a decision to actively live my life by Grace. I try my hardest to not be afraid to goof up. I pray that I may not live in fear and that one day I'll run instead of crawl.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 09:48 PM
So far as PA has stated all the "examples" of lying has only proved to justify the actions of lying when a greater evil was present. It did not deem the lie righteous or holy.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 09:51 PM
Knight used the argument against Zakath about raping and murdering a young girl....it was wrong. Even in the reversal of Zakath's argument that lest the man did so a bomb would detonate and kill millions. The act was STILL wrong but justified in the account of the greater evil....ergo Knight's point of absolute.

A sin can be justified when present and up against a greater sin but in no way makes the sin holy or righteous.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
Knight used the argument against Zakath about raping and murdering a young girl....it was wrong. Even in the reversal of Zakath's argument that lest the man did so a bomb would detonate and kill millions. The act was STILL wrong but justified in the account of the greater evil....ergo Knight's point of absolute.

A sin can be justified when present and up against a greater sin but in no way makes the sin holy or righteous. Again.... a lie is simply not telling the truth. Not telling the truth is morally neutral. A lies motivation makes it either sinful or not sinful.

Comparing a lie to murder or rape is a bad comparison because murder and rape are by their own definition NOT morally neutral yet morally wrong.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Huh????

If lying were absolutely wrong God would have been disappointed that the Hebrew midwives lied to the Egyptian King.

Tit 1:2 KJV In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Is this not an absolute statement?


Originally posted by Knight
Lying is not an absolute either way. It makes no difference whether God can or cannot lie.

Can God rape and murder a young child? It makes a difference.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Again.... a lie is simply not telling the truth. Not telling the truth is morally neutral. A lies motivation makes it either sinful or not sinful.

Comparing a lie to murder or rape is a bad comparison because murder and rape are by their own definition NOT morally neutral yet morally wrong.

Not eating pork is morally neutral. A man using the woman's restroom in a resturant is morally neutral. If lying were morally neutral than why classify lying among the acts of murdering, kidnapping and such...

1Ti 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Unless lying nulls our moral rule and murder and kidnapping are also morally neutral.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom

Tit 1:2 KJV In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Is this not an absolute statement?


Can God rape and murder a young child? It makes a difference. Am I gonna have to spoon feed you this??

God doesn't lie - He doesn't need to. (although there is more to this topic as well).

Sometimes men NEED to lie! Most of the time lying is bad but there are many times when lying is good and even righteous.

There is no logical connection between God not lying and lying being being absolutely wrong for men (as you assert).

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:32 PM
Ergo....my followup post! Would you like me to supply the spoon or will the spoon be included in the subscriber fee?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom


Not eating pork is morally neutral. A man using the woman's restroom in a resturant is morally neutral. If lying were morally neutral than why classify lying among the acts of murdering, kidnapping and such...

1Ti 1:9-10 KJV Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, (10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Unless lying nulls our moral rule and murder and kidnapping are also morally neutral. Obviously this verse refers to lying in a wrongful way (i.e.; false witness) unless you think that this verse is referring to the Hebrew midwives as well?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:37 PM
YES or NO? Was it was sinful for the Hebrew midwives to lie to the Egyptian King?

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:43 PM
Yes it was sinful....justified in respect to the greater evil awaiting (the slaughter of the children).

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:45 PM
Is there a right way to be a whoremonger so that only the wrong way to be a whoremonger is its cause for being listed among the list?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
Yes it was sinful....justified in respect to the greater evil awaiting (the slaughter of the children). Well at least you gave a direct answer. Wrong, but direct.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:47 PM
How do I know your statement is true?

Xmansmommy
October 21st, 2002, 10:47 PM
Has God Himself ever lied, tricked or mislead anyone?
Well, I'm not sure that these passages suggest that He ever lied to anyone or tricked anyone or mislead anyone. But He certainly did keep some secrets...
1Co:2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co:2:7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Co:2:8: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Eph:3:9: And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col:1:26: Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Ro:16:25: Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

God in His infinite wisdom clearly kept some information shut up unto Himself until He decided to reveal it. And based on 1 Cor 2:8 it's a good thing He did. :thumb:

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:47 PM
From the get go I made my answer direct. Egad man what...you think this is Jaltus posing as the Shadow Despot?

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Xmansmommy

Well, I'm not sure that these passages suggest that He ever lied to anyone or tricked anyone or mislead anyone. But He certainly did keep some secrets...

Don't post that in the Preterism thread.

To keep a secret is not a lie unless of course the secret is used as an act of perjury, but then it would be perjury.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
Is there a right way to be a whoremonger so that only the wrong way to be a whoremonger is its cause for being listed among the list? Well that's the rub...... lying is different than all the other items on the list in the verse you supplied.

That's what is so interesting about "lying". It is different.... ergo my thread!

Lying is sort of like hate.

Hate can be good or bad depending on it's context.

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:52 PM
I am in dire need of a bigger spoon!

You make no sense. You can't commit a hate. You commit a lie.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom


Don't post that in the Preterism thread.

To keep a secret is not a lie unless of course the secret is used as an act of perjury, but then it would be perjury. Huh???

Have you ever heard of a "lie of omission"?

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:54 PM
So God was lying by omission by not laying out the mystery of the Body of Christ?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
I am in dire need of a bigger spoon!

You make no sense. You can't commit a hate. You commit a lie. Dude, are you smokin crack?

I said...

"Lying is sort of like hate.

Hate can be good or bad depending on it's context."

I said "Like".

A lie is like hate in that it can be good or bad depending on motivation.

You certainly do not reject righteous hatred do you?

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
So God was lying by omission by not laying out the mystery of the Body of Christ? No but in your opinion is there such a thing as a lie of omission?

Yxboom
October 21st, 2002, 10:59 PM
You sig says you are watching. Since you are watching me you should know.

Are you lying?
...........

Of course there is righteous hatred. As there is a wicked love. My point was lying is an act against another...hate and love are not. They are motives rather than actual acts. So, lying CAN'T be LIKE hate or love. Lying isn't a motivation but an act of one.

Knight
October 21st, 2002, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom
My point was lying is an act against another...And therein lies your confusion. Lying is NOT always a "act against another", an example would be lying to the Nazi's that you don't have Jewish children hiding in your basement. IN that case the lie is an act FOR, not against another. A brave act! A beautiful act! The liar would be laying his life on the line for the well being of another just like the Hebrew midwives risked their very lives to protect the baby Hebrew boys.

The lie was an act FOR........ not against.

Yxboom
October 22nd, 2002, 12:02 AM
Egad man!!!

Regardless it is an ACT...not to be equated with hate or love which are motivations. Out of hate a person may lie...out of love a person may lie. Lying and hating can not be LIKE each other.

s9s27s54
October 22nd, 2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by GraceInMe
I am absolutely confused!:confused:
You aint the only one!

Jaltus
October 22nd, 2002, 05:17 PM
So, unlike Corrie Ten Boom, you'd turn Jews over to the Nazis to be killed rather than tell a lie. Is this what you're saying, Jaltus? I would be honest but evasive. I would not lie.

Jaltus
October 22nd, 2002, 05:22 PM
Does anyone actually plan on interacting with my two major points?

1) Jesus is the Truth. Lying is the opposite of the truth.

2) We are called to be like Jesus (I John 2:6, among others). Jesus never lied. Therefore, we should never lie either.


A sin can be justified when present and up against a greater sin but in no way makes the sin holy or righteous.Sin can NEVER be "justified." Where is that in the Bible?

All the examples that you guys give are from NARRATIVE PASSAGES. Nothing in the text says whether what they did was good or evil. Nothing says that is what we are to do. The Assyrains murdered people, and that is recorded in the Bible. Should we do the same thing?

Judas betrayed Christ. Should we do the same thing?

You need to make a decision about what is descriptive and what is prescriptive. Just because it is recorded in the Bible does not mean it is the right or God-approved thing to do.

Knight
October 22nd, 2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus
All the examples that you guys give are from NARRATIVE PASSAGES. Nothing in the text says whether what they did was good or evil. Nothing says that is what we are to do. The Assyrains murdered people, and that is recorded in the Bible. Should we do the same thing?

Judas betrayed Christ. Should we do the same thing?

You need to make a decision about what is descriptive and what is prescriptive. Just because it is recorded in the Bible does not mean it is the right or God-approved thing to do. So please help me out here...

Are you asserting that God would have preferred that the Hebrew midwives NOT lied to the Egyptian King?

Jaltus
October 22nd, 2002, 05:36 PM
Are you asserting that God would have preferred that the Hebrew midwives NOT lied to the Egyptian King? Of course! God worked despite them, not because of them.

HopeofGlory
October 22nd, 2002, 10:12 PM
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess. 2:11

Is God righteous?

In Christ
Craig

Jaltus
October 23rd, 2002, 01:35 PM
Judgment it is, not the lie you seek.

- Yoda the theologian

Yxboom
October 23rd, 2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Jaltus
Judgment it is, not the lie you seek.

- Yoda the theologian

There it is. Where Jaltus gets his theology!

Knight
October 23rd, 2002, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Yxboom


There it is. Where Jaltus gets his theology! Well.. getting your theology from Yoda would most likely be a more accurate education than what most are getting at the local seminary.

Yxboom
October 23rd, 2002, 03:58 PM
What of Jaltus being schooled by Yoda at a local seminary :doh:

Jaltus
October 23rd, 2002, 04:37 PM
School you I will, learn the lesson though you will not.
Noetic effects of the fall there are, think straight do you not.
--Yoda the theologian

Pilgrimagain
October 24th, 2002, 09:44 AM
2) We are called to be like Jesus (I John 2:6, among others). Jesus never lied. Therefore, we should never lie either.

The obvious argument brought to you by the Sith

Jesus never used double ply toilet paper, neither should we.

Jaltus
October 24th, 2002, 08:10 PM
Good point, Pa.

Maybe I should redo that argument.

on second thought, it was building off of one, not standing apart from it. If you see Jesus as Truth, and then we are called to walk as Him, then my point is more clear.

What do you think about that?

bill betzler
October 25th, 2002, 01:48 AM
Samuel 16:

1 And the Lord said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou
mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from
reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and
go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I
have provided me a king among his sons.
2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he
will kill me. And the Lord said, Take an heifer with
thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the Lord.
3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee
what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him
whom I name unto thee.
4 And Samuel did that which the Lord spake, and came to
Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his
coming, and said, Comest thou peaceably?
5 And he said, Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto
the Lord: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the
sacrifice. And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and
called them to the sacrifice.

Here is a biblical account of what you are talking about.

Jaltus is on the right track. No lie, God gave Samuel a different truth to tell Saul when he was afraid of the first truth.

Knight
November 20th, 2002, 06:26 PM
Ha! I knew this thread was around here somewhere!

Dee Dee Warren
November 20th, 2002, 06:40 PM
Knight... I never even saw this thread before... pretty scarey that we were already saying the same things huh??

Dee Dee Warren
November 20th, 2002, 06:52 PM
Knight, you have got to come over and participate on the newest version of this topic. You just HAVE to or I will kick and scream and foam and stomp my feet. Yx has personally witnessed my tantrums, and they are not pretty.

Dee Dee Warren
November 20th, 2002, 06:54 PM
See?

Knight
November 20th, 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Knight... I never even saw this thread before... pretty scarey that we were already saying the same things huh?? Your kidding me???

I thought, that you thought that I would be interested in the other thread based on this thread!

Weird.

Dee Dee Warren
November 20th, 2002, 07:10 PM
I really never saw it before. I thought you would be interested in the other thread based upon your Battle, and your brief comments that you did post there.

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by GraceInMe

Who's April?

Originally posted by Brother Vinny

Only the best breakfast-sandwich maker I've ever encountered. Oh, and she's also Knight's wife. :doh: I wish I had read this post before last July. I missed out!

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 06:06 PM
couldn't you say (using the whole hiding jews scenerio) that you should tell the truth and ALWAYS put your trust in God to work out the rest?

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

couldn't you say (using the whole hiding jews scenerio) that you should tell the truth and ALWAYS put your trust in God to work out the rest? NO! Did you read the opening post, about the Hebrew midwives?

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 07:04 PM
i did, but i shall go back and re read, and i was just asking, so re direct me if you think i am wrong, i am trying to learn. and i do this in between all my children needing something inccesantly so sometimes i get off track. i will re read and then we shall see, maybe i will still feel the same, maybe not...

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 07:10 PM
OK. The opening post is well-written, and spells it out very clearly.

I was kind of thrown because you made reference to the Nazi/Jew scenario, so it sounded like you read the (whole) post. Let us know what you think after you re-read the opening post more thoroughly.

Lucky
February 26th, 2005, 07:14 PM
Hmm, give me some time to think about "righteous lying". :think:

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 07:18 PM
so the midwives feared God in the fact that the king of Egypt was commanding them to do something un-godly?

Poly
February 26th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

:doh: I wish I had read this post before last July. I missed out!

So what did she cook for you?

Knight and Lion cooked us brunch. It was great! Not a single thing burnt either. And they had a houseful to cook for. I was impressed. :up:

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

so the midwives feared God in the fact that the king of Egypt was commanding them to do something un-godly? Yes, and the lie they told Pharaoh to cover their tracks and to continue to be able to protect the babies was godly. They were wise and godly to deceive the murderous Pharaoh.

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Poly

So what did she cook for you?

Knight and Lion cooked us brunch. It was great! Not a single thing burnt either. And they had a houseful to cook for. I was impressed. :up: I don't remember whether she cooked for us. I remember Knight made smoked chicken one night, and grilled burgers another day.

julie21
February 26th, 2005, 08:18 PM
"Thou shalt not kill"...even by default!
The midwives were adhering to this commandment of the Lord's, just as anyone lying to keep Jews from being slaughtered were adhering to the Commandment as well.
God does not want us to kill...either of our own volition, or by default, as these two scenarios were.
Therefore, I believe that these lies were entirely justified in the sight of God.

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Well, just so you know, my earlier question was purely out of curiosity of what others thought on that point. When i first read this thread i agreed with the thought that "thou shall not lie" was not a commandment and that lying depends on your reason for doing so. But i decided to go back and re read after you questioned me. :)

Turbo
February 26th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by julie21

"Thou shalt not kill"...even by default!
The midwives were adhering to this commandment of the Lord's, just as anyone lying to keep Jews from being slaughtered were adhering to the Commandment as well.
God does not want us to kill...either of our own volition, or by default, as these two scenarios were.
Therefore, I believe that these lies were entirely justified in the sight of God. Right, julie21. Knowingly giving a murderer information that he needs to commit his crime is to become an accessory to that murder.

(Though that commandment is better translated "You shall not murder." Like lying, sometimes killing is appropriate and righteous.)

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Right, julie21. Knowingly giving a murderer information that he needs to commit his crime is to become an accessory to that murder.



nice way to explain this point, i see exactly what you mean, and i agree.

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Oooooohhh! i just got a blue star! woo hoo !

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:33 PM
I would like to thank the academy...<sniff> and my mother........

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I would like to thank the academy...<sniff> and my father <sniff> <sniff>........

Poly
February 26th, 2005, 08:35 PM
I see you've started practicing the art of :spam: ing. :eek:

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:44 PM
actually, i'm not sure how that happened, i tried to delete it but apparently i do not have that pleasure. sorry 'bout that.:o :o :o

Poly
February 26th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

actually, i'm not sure how that happened, i tried to delete it but apparently i do not have that pleasure. sorry 'bout that.:o :o :o

I thought they were the same post at first but I see that one says "mother" and one says "father".

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 08:57 PM
yeah, all i did was try to change mother to father but when i was doing it i pressed something wrong i guess. i checked to see if the first one posted so that i didn't hog the thread up. but i guess i messed it up all together.
if you were inquiring as to why i changed it in the first place, it's because i am very analytical and even though it was just a joke, i thought better of it when i realized that my father taught me more about religion than my mother, so i tried to change it.

yes, i am ridiculous...

julie21
February 26th, 2005, 09:06 PM
...in keeping with the thread's discussion;)
Only joking!

LivingDeadDoll
February 26th, 2005, 09:23 PM
i honestly had to look at the top to remember what it even was...sorry!

Turbo - what would be an example of when killing is righteous?
(just curious)

Turbo
February 27th, 2005, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

nice way to explain this point, i see exactly what you mean, and i agree. :up:

Turbo
February 27th, 2005, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

i honestly had to look at the top to remember what it even was...sorry!

Turbo - what would be an example of when killing is righteous?
(just curious) One example would be when governing authorities execute a convicted murderer.