Theology Club: Dynamic Omniscience

Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Here is themuzicman's (an Open Theist) view of Dynamic Omniscience, which is a core belief held by OT'ers.

I understand it a bit differently, and since I have received a neg rep from godrulz telling me I do not know anything about it, I am wondering of all the Open Theists agree with themuzicman . . . and if any differ, how they differ.

Thanks,

Nang
 
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COLA76

New member
Nang said:
Here is themuzicman's (an Open Theist) view of Dynamic Omniscience, which is a core belief held by OT'ers.

I understand it a bit differently, and since I have received a neg rep from godrulz telling me I do not know anything about it, I am wondering of all the Open Theists agree with themuzicman . . . and if any differ, how they differ.

Thanks,

Nang
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The only thing I might add is that many Open Theists include that God also knows all future possibilities.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
COLA76 said:
The only thing I might add is that many Open Theists include that God also knows all future possibilities.
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So . . . if God knows all actualities, and all future possibilities . . . what is unknowable?
 
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COLA76

New member
Nang said:
Are you willing to base your faith on man-made hypotheticals that deny the declarations of God Almighty?

Such as:

Isaiah 46:10
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I am not basing my faith on man made hypotheticals. I base my faith on the witness of the Holy Spirit in my life. My faith is supported by Scripture, which I believe says God desires to have a loving relationship with his people and me specifically. Additionally, I believe a good Scriptural argument can be made that relationship with God requires freewill on the part of humanity and God.

To be quite frank, I could take or leave the notion that God has foreknowledge. My faith does not hinge on God's foreknowledge. However, I think that the open view of omniscience is the most philosophically consistent. Really, it is more of a statement on the nature of reality than on divine attributes.

The Isaiah verse you sight states that God declares things that are not yet done. I do not disagree one bit. I do note that God does not need to know the future to bring about his plans. I am confident that God is confident he can achieve his purposes through cooperation with his people. Which seems fitting since believers are called coheirs with Christ.

All that to say, I do not see any part of open theism that denies declarations of God.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
COLA76 said:
I think that the open view of omniscience is the most philosophically consistent. Really, it is more of a statement on the nature of reality than on divine attributes.
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So you worship an empirical god and discard the holy attributes of the God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

O.K.

May God have mercy on your unbelieving soul . . .



I am confident that God is confident he can achieve his purposes through cooperation with his people.
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Which theory declares Creator God dependent upon His creatures, to accomplish all His will.

O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .

Which seems fitting since believers are called coheirs with Christ.
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Ever heard of or studied the scriptures that reveal the Covenant of Grace?

All that to say, I do not see any part of open theism that denies declarations of God.
Click to expand...

O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .
 
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COLA76

New member
Now Nang, we were having a nice conversation, but then you had to pull out this junk.

Nang said:
So you worship an empirical god and discard the holy attributes of the God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

O.K.

May God have mercy on your unbelieving soul . . .
Click to expand...

I'm not discarding anything. I maintain that God knows everything there is to know.


Nang said:
Which theory declares Creator God dependent upon His creatures, to accomplish all His will.

O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .
Click to expand...

Not because he must, because he chose to. Do you not think God is powerful and intelligent enough to do so? It seems to me that you are the one who wants to keep God in a box.

Nang said:
Ever heard of or studied the scriptures that reveal the Covenant of Grace?

O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .
Click to expand...

Ever heard of Prevenient Grace as revealed in Scripture? It is by God's grace that we all have the opportunity to come into relationship with him.

Nang said:
May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .
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What a deceitful statement. Is it not true, according to your theology, that my unbelief(as described by you) is due to God's decree that I not believe? If it was God's will for me to believe, would I not believe? Yet, you patronizingly point out my supposed unbelief as if I was able to do something about it.

You call upon God's mercy when (according to your theology) you know there will be none. Not only do you know there will be no mercy for the non-elect unbelievers, but you praise God that there will be none. You see it at as glorious that God should condemn all, but save only a few. You see it as glorious that God would create so many souls only to have them exist in eternal torment forever, without any chance to enter into relationship with God. You say this God is love. Your theology is disgusting and sadistic.

May the Spirit teach you the real meaning of love and glory.
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nang said:
Here is themuzicman's (an Open Theist) view of Dynamic Omniscience, which is a core belief held by OT'ers.

I understand it a bit differently, and since I have received a neg rep from godrulz telling me I do not know anything about it, I am wondering of all the Open Theists agree with themuzicman . . . and if any differ, how they differ.

Thanks,

Nang
Click to expand...

I doubt I said you did not know ANYTHING about it, but your posts indicated that you did not understand everything about it.
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
COLA76 said:
The only thing I might add is that many Open Theists include that God also knows all future possibilities.
Click to expand...

This is a debatable point. Gregory Boyd used to call his view neo-Molinistic and would likely consider that God's knows all future possibilities. I think there are somethings that are absurd and would never obtain/actualize and that God does not know a zillion stupid possibilities about everything/anything. Possibilities also increase exponentially every second, so it becomes bizarre. If they are knowable, then God would know them. I would put the emphasis on His actual knowledge and intelligence more than hypotheticals.
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nang said:
So . . . if God knows all actualities, and all future possibilities . . . what is unknowable?
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God knows reality as it is. He correctly distinguishes actualities/certainties, necessities, probabilities, possibilities. Many future possibilities will never obtain, so he correctly knows them as possible, not actual/certain.

There is an element of uncertainty due to the nature of creation/free will, so there is a difference between past/present and future and between things that are extant/actual vs merely possible, but may or may not obtain/actualize.

Again, Open Theists debate whether future possibilities are known exhaustively, but we agree that past and present reality is.
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nang said:
Only the ones that God has ordained will occur!

:jump:
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Determinism or compatibilism are wrong paradigms leading to wrong conclusions.

For the sake of argument, IF libertarian free will is true, then exhaustive definite foreknowledge is logically impossible (modal logic). Arminians do not see this and default to eternal now/simple foreknowledge as a way to reconcile things. Molinists talk about middle knowledge and counterfactuals of freedom, while Open Theists reject EDF, but affirm that God knows some of the future as settled, but not all of it.

Your determinism would explain EDF. Open Theism says that God determines/knows some vs all of the future (hence we don't have the problem with God being responsible for evil, contrary to His holy nature).

So, the nature of free will, the possibility or impossibility of determinism, the nature of time vs eternity (eternal now; endless time), etc. all have implications on our understanding of omniscience as dynamic or not, foreknowledge, predestination, etc.

Wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions.
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
COLA76 said:
What if God ordains a partly open future? Could God do that?
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There are two motifs in Scripture: God ordains and settles/knows some of the future, while other aspects of the future are unsettled/known as possible. This is by His sovereign will.

God could have made a deterministic universe, but He did not (it would have been at the expense of love, relationship, freedom, responsibility).

By self-limiting His 'control', He gave up EDF. This is not a providential issue in light of His great power/ability/intelligence/sovereignty (which is providential, not meticulous). An omnicompetent God does not have to be omnicausal (a holy God can't be the latter without compromising His character).

The issue is the nature of creation (open, partially open, closed), not whether God is omniscient or not (we both fully affirm this, but differ as to certain vs possible objects of knowledge).
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nang said:
Are you willing to base your faith on man-made hypotheticals that deny the declarations of God Almighty?

Such as:

Isaiah 46:10
Click to expand...

If you will read the whole context of Is. 46 and 48, you will see that it refers to specific things and it states that He declares/knows because of His ability to bring this to pass, not by simple FK (prescience...offers no providential advantage because God could not change the fixed future even if He wanted to...would make His FK false), not by determinism.

The mistake is to extrapolate this proof text to EDF when it does not say nor intend that. I can declare and predict that I will go to work tomorrow and I have the ability to bring this to pass. I don't have to see myself in the future going to work to make the prediction. It is illogical for actions/choices to be settled and objects of certain knowledge before the agent even exists to choose?!
 
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godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Nang said:
So you worship an empirical god and discard the holy attributes of the God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.

O.K.

May God have mercy on your unbelieving soul . . .





Which theory declares Creator God dependent upon His creatures, to accomplish all His will.

O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .



Ever heard of or studied the scriptures that reveal the Covenant of Grace?



O.K.

May God have mercy upon your unbelieving soul . . .
Click to expand...

This is why you get neg reps. You really don't understand the opposing view well enough to reject it. You react to a straw man of your imagination and default to your Calvinistic programming (which is more problematic than you realize).

God knows all that is knowable. There are some things that are logically unknowable. Can we agree that God does not know where Alice in Wonderland is? Does that mean He is not omniscient?

Likewise, omnipotence is being able to do the doable. Some things are inherently undoable like making square circles, making 2+2=4 and 5, making married bachelors, making God cease to exist, etc. Does that mean He is not omnipotent or are there logical absurdities/limitations consistent with His being and creation?
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
COLA76 said:
Ever heard of Prevenient Grace
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Indeed I have and I reject the concept.

as revealed in Scripture?
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No such kind of grace, revealed in Scripture. That is why I reject the concept, for it is manmade.

It is by God's grace that we all have the opportunity to come into relationship with him.
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God's grace does not offer opportunity to all men, but provides surety to those the Father gave to the Son to redeem.




You call upon God's mercy when (according to your theology) you know there will be none.
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Nope. I do not know God will not show you mercy and truth. That is why I pray that God "may" show you mercy to relieve you of your wrong views and unbelief in His true gospel of grace.
 
Nang

Nang

TOL Subscriber
godrulz said:
This is why you get neg reps.
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The only neg reps I receive are from NickM and you. Ask Knight. He knows.


You really don't understand the opposing view well enough to reject it.
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I am not stupid, as your infer. If I did NOT understand the "opposing view" (to orthodox and historical Christianity proposed by OTers) I would not intelligently and spiritually know to reject it.

But I am blessed to know the Holy Scriptures, and on that basis, I reject all false teachings.

Can we agree that God does not know where Alice in Wonderland is? Does that mean He is not omniscient?
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That kind of hypothetical argument is beneath me and not worthy of serious response . . .

Neither are your comments regarding divine omnipotence worthy of response.

:wave::loser::yawn:
 
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