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View Full Version : ARCHIVE - geoff's colossal contradiction (subtitled) HIS CONVERSION TO OPEN THEISM!



1Way
September 22nd, 2001, 03:32 PM
For everyone's information, "geoff" has been an avid defender of closed verses open theism. Open theism says that God knows the future as being open to (some) uncertainties and contingencies. The classic closed view says that God knows all of the future (exhaustively), for God, the future is fixed and set, it is singular in truth and outcome, no variation or uncertainty is allowed. Yet, today, geoff seemingly reversed his view by demonstration! Examine his post to see for your self.

dated 9-21 9:05pm, in the "God does not repent" thread, in "The Attributes of God" forum.


(WARNING: The follow depiction is shocking, and irrational, therefore viewer discretion is advised)


Geoff quoted me (1Way) saying
God can not

know how to make the impossible happen,

because if He did, then it would not be impossible, it would be a possible task. and then responded by saying
The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge. Then he quoted me saying
God can not know what does not exist to be known. I realize that he had just suggested how man has PARTIAL foreknowledge, and I grant that geoff believes that God can also plan for the future, but then in defense of God's supposed capacity to know things that do not exist (which is his position and he is about to defend!), he shockingly said
I think I will write a sentence in 30 secs that says; 'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'





'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'

Funny, I just knew something that didnt exist, and then it did exist. If I can do it, surely God can do it immeasurably.
That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future! God knows His future plans before they happen. It demonstrates present accumulated knowledge, which includes plans for the future.

geoff is either opposed and inconsistent to his own theology, or perhaps finally the truth has begun to sink in. In any case, his presented a fine demonstration for the open view.

Amazing!

1Way

Maelstrom
September 22nd, 2001, 05:19 PM
Are you now willing to acknowledge that God has exhaustive knowledge of the future?

PENIEL
September 22nd, 2001, 06:31 PM
What is this - a Witch Hunt ?????

Let the guy have his own beliefs and stop trying to appeal to us for support.

If the guy wants to believe whatever he wants to believe , that is his business.

You are not Perfect Yourself ya know !!!!!!!!!

I believe in Open Theism.

And since , I am Always Right , All the Time. And Good Lookin Too!

So, Why doesn't Everyone think exactly as I do all the Time ???

Or maybe you want everyone to be Like Freak or Evangelion.

Or maybe you would like all of us to be Roman Catholic or Mormons.

We are NOT all the same. God created room for Variety .

If He did not then this would be a very Boring Board.

So , Give the Guy a Break will ya.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::confused:

His_saving_Grac
September 22nd, 2001, 06:42 PM
Please stop wasting our precious time with your petty immature personal attack on new threads.

I have an idea, why not create a web page with nothing but the names of those here you have condemend to Hell for disagreeing with you. (Never mind, they don't sell that much webspace)

geoff
September 22nd, 2001, 07:11 PM
Now now,

Be nice to Dwayne, he is losing the plot, and doesnt really know what He is talking about.. we cant really hold it against him, I dont.

I should like to take this opportunity to point out, once again, that I am not a Calvinist, nor am I am arminian, nor an OVer, or a dispie. All I defend is what I have learnt from Scripture, and from historical, semantic, literary, and philosophical study and reflection on Scripture.

I am not an expert.
I have a degree.
I am not always right.
I am not always wrong.

1Way
September 22nd, 2001, 08:14 PM
geoff - As to
Be nice to Dwayne, he is losing the plot, and doesnt really know what He is talking about.. we cant really hold it against him, I dont. I am ready (and have been waiting) for correction and understanding. Please help us understand what is going on with your seeming contradiction.

I don't get it. You have consistently stated (for years) that God knows the future exhaustively, and yet, you just got done demonstrating God's foreknowledge (the way us open theists do) as being according to His present accumulated knowledge including His plans for the future.

God's knowledge of the future is either

(1) Exhaustive
(2) Closed to contingencies or uncertainty

or the negation of the same

(-1) Is not exhaustive
(-2) Is open to contingencies and uncertainties

Please explain your position on God's knowledge of the future in light of your (openness) demonstration of your view.

geoff
September 22nd, 2001, 08:20 PM
I demonstrated that *I* have foreknowledge, and that even my foreknowledge isnt based entirely on 'guesswork' but what I know to be certain.

I also demonstrated that I can know that which does not exist.

I then indicated, as you have admitted, that God is infinitely more capable of knowing. I also indicated that seeing as I can know that which doesnt exist, God can also know what which doesnt exist. Making it not 'illogical' as you claimed, but logical, because it can be proven to be so.

Perhaps this thread should be renamed 'dwayne colossal foolhardy and rash statements about that which He knows little'.

1Way
September 22nd, 2001, 09:13 PM
Geoff - Ss to
I also demonstrated that I can know that which does not exist. All you identified was your plans for future action. The fact that you expressed those plans, prove that they existed in you mind, and the fact that you carried out your plans, proves that you really did plan on doing what you thought to do.

All that involved present knowledge, none of that involved knowing of "something" that does not exist. All you knew was your plan, you did not know the reality of it being carried out until you actually did it. Only then did you realize you plans.

If you have something, it is not nothing. It exists as something.

So to say that you can think of "something" that does not exist, you are contradicting reality. The reality is, your plan for the future existed in your mind, that was the something that you think did not exist, yet the reality is, it existed in your mind.

(Boy, I really could have ribbed you on that one.)

1Way

geoff
September 22nd, 2001, 09:37 PM
If you have something, it is not nothing. It exists as something.

So you are now denying OV philosophy.

If God has the ability to exhaustively foreknow, then 'something' does exist, as you so rightly pointed out.

God AT THE VERY LEAST knows his plans, but He knows more than just what he plans, doesnt He dwayne?

Yes, He does, he knows who will reject him, he knows when a sparrow will fall, he knows the number of hairs on your head, he knew you BEFORE you were born (before you were conceived is the correct Hebrew), and the list goes on.

So, God DOES know more than just what He has planned, which shows that you are wrong. God knows things BEFORE they exist. In fact, in Romas we are told that God calls into existence THAT WHICH DOES NOT EXIST.

For your peace of mind:
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”)—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Btw, 'call' in this verse is likened to 'summon' - God 'summons' into existence (being) that which does not exist (not being).

He who ribs last, ribs longest...

1Way
September 22nd, 2001, 09:45 PM
geoff - God knows things, and so do I. Your evasiveness and insincere posts,

here's why I believe God knows the future

it's his plans

only to see you revert away from that, back into the confines of God knows all things exhaustively. I trusted that you were being honest and not hijacking your thoughts for a reversal like you just did. You are insincere, you are vain. But make no mistake, I will know you clear as day when God reveals the secrets hidden in man's heart. Apparently only then will I come to understand why you are so subversive.

geoff
September 22nd, 2001, 10:26 PM
Dwayne,

why are you ignoring the verse that SHOWS IRREFUTIBLY, that God can know that which doest exist?

He has to know it before it 'exists' because HE CALLS IT IN INTO EXISTENCE.

Come on Dwayne, why are you ignoring it?

Why are you ignoring the other bible verses that show other aspects of things that God knows which ARE NOT things he has planned or decreed?

Why Dwayne? Tell us...

I am being honest... I have given you ONE good scripture, and i will post the rest here for you so you dont even have to go and find them...

Jer 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
and before you were born I consecrated you;
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Isa 49:1 Listen to me, O coastlands,
pay attention, you peoples from far away!
The Lord called me before I was born,
while I was in my mother’s womb he named me.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Rom 9:11 Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, 12 not by works but by his call) she was told, “The elder shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written,
“I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau.”
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Gal 1: 15 But when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

Matt 10:29 Two sparrows cost only a penny, but not even one of them can die without your Father’s knowing it. 30 God even knows how many hairs are on your head. 31 So don’t be afraid. You are worth much more than many sparrows.
(NCV)
The New Century Version, (Dallas, Texas: Word Publishing) 1987, 1988, 1991.

Here we have a bunch of verses showing that God knows MORE than just what He has decreed/planned.

Add to this:

Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”)—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
The New Revised Standard Version, (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers) 1989.

And we find that it is you who is being deceitful. Willfully ignoring these verses. Resorting to insults.

Come on Dwayne, I thought you could do better than that...

....don’t be afraid. You are worth much more than many sparrows...

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 01:25 PM
geoff - As to
He has to know it before it 'exists' because HE CALLS IT IN INTO EXISTENCE. No, He only has to know of it conceptually before it exists. Knowing a concept or idea, is not the existence of the non-idea. Or do you not know the difference between a thing, and the concept of that thing?

As to
Romans 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith that [it might be] according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed----God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be." I didn't mean to ignore it, I thought I was being clear. It's simply a reference to God's foreknowledge. God (calls things) will make happen that which what does not already exist, as though they already do exist. Great verse! God views yet future things as though they already exist, but they don't exist yet. So they only exist as a future plan.

1Way

geoff
September 23rd, 2001, 03:51 PM
Or do you not know the difference between a thing, and the concept of that thing?

YOU, yes YOU said, that God COULD NOT know that which does not exist.

I showed He can, no use trying to run around in circles to cover yourself.


It's simply a reference to God's foreknowledge

Yes it is, it say God calls (summons) into existence, that which doesnt exist.


God views yet future things as though they already exist, but they don't exist yet. So they only exist as a future plan.
If God Views future things as though they exist, then surely God is seeing them as though they exist, not as a 'future plan'. I suggest you revise that statement, because it contradicts itself.

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 06:32 PM
geoff - "as though they did;" is (contextually) a clear and positive affirmation that they do not exist. And I think it is clearly the only logical and consistent rendering.

Recall the law of non-contradiction. "A" can not be both

"A"

and

"non A"

at the same time and in the same relationship.

You are saying that a thing can exist and not exist at the same time and in the same relationship. God knows of "things" "that do not exist". There is no such "knowable thing", as "a thing that does not exist". If "something" does not exist, it is no-thing (or not a thing), not some-thing. You are making no sense.

But, the Bible teaches that God makes things happen according to His future plans. You are trying to force your theology into this verse, but an objective review shows that "as though they did (exist)", means that they didn't exist until God brought them about into being.

This verse is stating my view very clearly. When God carries out His future plans, it happens with such clarity and certainty, that it's as though they had already existed, but they didn't exist (until He brought them about,). Again the context is always a good helper in times of doubting the meaning.

Notice
(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") The Bible's story of how God made him the father of many nations is one that does not explicitly state, nor logically necessitate exhaustive foreknowledge. You are just trying to shove your theology into God's word.

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 06:51 PM
Talk about baffling. I am having a serious discussion with a person trying to defend the idea that God can know something that does not even exist to be known.

geoff says that God can do the impossible but not the illogical.

Wacky.

geoff
September 23rd, 2001, 07:50 PM
geoff says that God can do the impossible but not the illogical.

You think this is wacky?

I think it is most strange that you think that God can not do the impossible... What is impossible for man is possible for God, Jesus said...

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 08:08 PM
geoff - As to
I think it is most strange that you think that God can not do the impossible... What is impossible for man is possible for God, Jesus said... That is a great verse, proving that God can do the possible, even if man thinks it is impossible.

By definition, and logical necessity, God can not do the impossible. Man and his estimations is not the crux by which God must leap. The truth in realty dictates (God's word teaches) that God exists according to His own eternal nature and being, it can be no other way.

PENIEL
September 23rd, 2001, 09:31 PM
1 Cor 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the

disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of

this world?

Psa 37:5 Commit thy way unto the LORD;

trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

===============

Who cares whether God knows everything before it happens.

Do you know everything before it happens. No.

Do you care , No.

Neither does anybody else.

God is in Control and Will Resurrect everyone Who has ever lived

so that they can live another hundred years the Right Way.

So, stop bothering us with your Trivial Little questions and

discuss something that we all know is important like, how many

angels can dance on the head of a Pin.

Get my Point.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

jobeth
September 23rd, 2001, 09:51 PM
Dwayne:
I agree with you that the reason God knows the future is because He knows what He will do. And since God knows there is nothing that can stop Him from doing whatever He wants, then God knows that what He wants to happen is what will happen.

Because I agree with you concerning the means God knows the future, does that make me an Open Theist? Of course not. The future is closed not because the future already exists. Rather it is "closed" to contingencies outside of whatever God wants, because God is All-powerful.

I affirm both that the future does not already exist and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens for the same reason you have already given. God knows what He plans to do. I don't think you are able to change the Almighty's plan for what He wants to do. Do you?

Geoff:
Whatever do you mean in saying that God knows more than what He plans to do? Is there anything that God knows about that He did not create? Do you deny that God is the Sole Creator?

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 10:12 PM
Jobeth - As to
Because I agree with you concerning the means God knows the future, does that make me an Open Theist? Of course not. The future is closed not because the future already exists. Rather it is "closed" to contingencies outside of whatever God wants, because God is All-powerful.

I affirm both that the future does not already exist and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens for the same reason you have already given. God knows what He plans to do. I don't think you are able to change the Almighty's plan for what He wants to do. Do you? That is very different. And I think contradictory. Let me examine and explain.

I affirm both (for the sake of this examination only)

that the future does not already exist

and that God exhaustively knows all that will happen before it happens (for the same reason you have already given).

Although I disagree with the amount of control you place upon God, I understand what you are saying and will evaluate it for what it is worth. So, in God's mind, although the future does not exist, He is in complete exhaustive control and therefore just as He perfectly knows and understands His future plans, so also does He perfectly know and understand everything that will happen in the future.

- Point being that you are saying that God's foreknowledge (which you pose as causative by His will and plans and might to carry them out) is:

absolutely certain and singular in it's totality.

If that is the case, then you have the same problem I mentioned with God's foreknowledge that is based upon another mechanism, that knowledge is absolutely certain and singular in it's totality. Therefore there is no pretense of uncertainties or contingencies, there is no free will, nor choices nor options, it all must happen according to the one set known truth according to God's foreknowledge. There is no other way.

So, are you consistent with this and say that there is only seeming changes, only seeming free will, only seeming contingencies? Please explain.

1Way

geoff
September 23rd, 2001, 11:04 PM
That is a great verse, proving that God can do the possible, even if man thinks it is impossible.

By definition, and logical necessity, God can not do the impossible. Man and his estimations is not the crux by which God must leap. The truth in realty dictates (God's word teaches) that God exists according to His own eternal nature and being, it can be no other way.

The verse says clearly, that God can do what is impossible for human beings. It is not limited by 'man thinks it is impossible' - that limitation is introduced by you.

By definition, and logical necessity? No, rather, 'in order for Dwayne to be right'.... God can not do the impossible.

Lets review:

Dwayne:
God can not do the impossible
God can not know that which does not exist

Scripture:
God can do the impossible
God does know that which does not exist.

Dwayne has to reword, and read meaning INTO Scripture in order for Dwayne to be right.

Scripture is right, all by its lonesome. It doesnt need Dwayne's logic or Dwaynes definitions to be right...

1Way
September 23rd, 2001, 11:43 PM
Geoff - As to
The verse says clearly, that God can do what is impossible for human beings. I agree that God can do what is impossible for human beings, that establishes that it is not an impossibility for God, it's just an impossibility for man.

2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before [us].

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM)
The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

Next!

geoff
September 24th, 2001, 12:23 AM
Dwayne this post is senseless.

I have never said God can lie. I have never said He can do the illogical...

What on earth are you raving about?

1Way
September 24th, 2001, 12:05 PM
Geoff - As to you mind numbing response, you said
I have never said God can lie. I have never said He can do the illogical. I suggested no such thing! I said God said

1 - it's impossible for God to lie, (Do you sometimes forget that you are not God?)

2 - and that you said that "God can not do the illogical.". (Do you always illogically flip the truth against it's self in reality?)

I never said nor implied what your defense implies of me.
(1)I have never said God can lie. (2)I have never said He can do the illogical. 1 - Neither did I say that God can lie, nor did I suggest or imply that you said that He can lie.

2 - Neither did I say that God can do the illogical, nor did I suggest or imply that you said that God can do the illogical.

I said what I said, and I meant what I meant, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS, which was the following.
2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before .

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM) Quote:

The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, [U]God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

End quote.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" basically means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

Next! It was no mixed up event like you are trying to make it into. You are so full of yourself. Inspite of, and regardless of, your nonsence response to my 2 points, they still stand against you, supporting the fact that God can not do what is impossible for him to do.

My points were offered, supported, and no credible deffense offered by geoff, case stands in my favor. Case is as closed as geoff is to the truth in reality.

1Way

geoff
September 24th, 2001, 02:31 PM
I still dont know what you are on about dwayne...

You seem to be trying to say that these 'points' are in opposition to my understanding... which is baffling... because they are points I already made..

your mind is a mystery dwayne...

Carl Smuda
September 24th, 2001, 02:44 PM
Geoff,
How you doing? It is nice to see you in print. God Bless you in the name of Jesus Christ! I trust all is well down there?

1Way,
God bless you in the name of Jesus Christ! YOU are the only YOU God has.

sincerely,
Carl

geoff
September 24th, 2001, 02:49 PM
Hi Carl,

I am well.. things are good down here.... Hope you are well also...

Dwayne is certainly the only dwayne around... *phew*

:D

God bless

1Way
September 25th, 2001, 04:18 PM
... in defense of God's supposed capacity to know things that do not exist (which is geoff's position and he is about to defend!), he shockingly said
I think I will write a sentence in 30 secs that says; 'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'





'see even I can know something that doesnt exist'

Funny, I just knew something that didnt exist, and then it did exist. If I can do it, surely God can do it immeasurably. That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future! God knows His future plans before they happen. It demonstrates present accumulated knowledge, which includes plans for the future.

geoff is either opposed and inconsistent to his own theology, or perhaps finally the truth has begun to sink in. In any case, his presented a fine demonstration for the open view.

Amazing!

1Way

geoff
September 25th, 2001, 07:05 PM
That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future!

It is not.

Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengenance.

jobeth
September 25th, 2001, 10:05 PM
Dwayne:

So, are you consistent with this and say that there is only seeming changes, only seeming free will, only seeming contingencies? Please explain.
Yes.

You've explained my position very well. Good job.

I will make one minor clarification, more for Geoff's benefit than for yours. I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens. Rather, because God is All-powerful and knows that nothing can thwart His will, or ruin His plans, or stop Him from accomplishing His purpose, EDF is simply the RESULT. God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

geoff
September 25th, 2001, 11:29 PM
God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

So, you contradict yourself so nicely. It he knows it because he is going to make it happen, then His knowing it, is first cause, ie knowing cases.

Sorry, wrong.

1Way
September 26th, 2001, 07:32 PM
Geoff - You twit. As to
Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengenance. I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively. If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic.

1Way

1Way
September 26th, 2001, 07:33 PM
Jobeth - As to
I will make one minor clarification, more for Geoff's benefit than for yours. [b]I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens. Rather, because God is All-powerful and knows that nothing can thwart His will, or ruin His plans, or stop Him from accomplishing His purpose, EDF is simply the RESULT. God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen. geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it.

Secondly, if God's thoughts are exhaustive and complete, then He views the future with exhaustive foreknowledge in the same manor as the other who believes that the future already exists to be known. The only difference is the way that the future is created or exists. Either way, in such a world, contingencies and uncertainties are not allowed.

So please remain consistent and do not represent

If then

contingencies

Since you keep affirming that they did not exist. Fair enough?

1Way

geoff
September 26th, 2001, 07:48 PM
I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively.

I have already demonstrated FROM scripture that God knows MORE than just what he has planned...

Your wilful ignorance condemns you (at least, thats what you tell everyone else...)

jobeth
September 26th, 2001, 08:19 PM
Geoff:

So, you contradict yourself so nicely. It he knows it because he is going to make it happen, then His knowing it, is first cause, ie knowing cases.

Sorry, wrong.
Perhaps I'm confused. Would you explain for me why you think that is so?

1Way
September 26th, 2001, 08:30 PM
Jobeth -
geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it. His foreknowledge effectively causes the future via His actions. Or do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?

1Way

1Way
September 26th, 2001, 08:41 PM
geoff

I said
"That is the exact demonstration of the open view's version of God's foreknowledge of the future!"

You said
"It is not.

Because immeasurably also indicates exhaustively, and you, my son, hate that with a vengeance."

Then I said,
"I agree with immeasurably, God knows His future plans (that exist) exhaustively."

To which you said
"I have already demonstrated FROM scripture that God knows MORE than just what he has planned..."

You slide away from the reality that exhaustive knowledge is not incompatible with my view. It's my view you were commenting on, not yours, you dunce.

1Way

jobeth
September 26th, 2001, 09:03 PM
1way:
I am happy to remain consistent and to deny that anything is contingent upon anything except upon God's sovereign will and authority. And I do admit that it is difficult to avoid being misunderstood because our language makes it nearly impossible.

James explains the difficulty.
James 4: 3 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

So, yes, our speech might be altered to reflect the Truth about God's rule and authority over us. But would it really help? Wouldn't some just say that an "if, then" when talking about God means that God is waiting on us to do one thing or another before He can act? You know they would. They do this even though they know it's nonsense. When you consider that God created the universe before any of us existed, then it is obvious that God doesn't need our help or consent before He can act.

Rather, the simple explanation why we might preface our intentions with "Lord willing" is that we are merely acknowledging the fact that we are obliged to wait upon God before we can do anything.

Christ told us: "Without me, you can do nothing."
He didn't say "You can do nothing good" Or "You can do only little". I believe that He meant we can do exactly nothing on our own, without God's agency.

geoff
September 26th, 2001, 09:36 PM
Jobeth,

You said:


God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

prior to this you said:


I agree with Geoff that God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of what happens.

The first line is a direct contradiction of the second.

'going to make it happen' is identical to 'causing it to happen'.

geoff
September 26th, 2001, 09:40 PM
Dwayne:

just continuing to state the same old baloney isnt going to help your cause. You have already been shown that you are wrong, from clear and legitimate Scripture, and yet you reject it, and lean on the understanding of yourself, or whoever taught you.

Its very sad really.

Calling me names also will not help your cause.

Some evidence, and refutation of scripture might, but nothing worth considering has vomited forth from your fingers as yet

1Way
September 26th, 2001, 10:48 PM
2 points

1 - Hebrews 6:18 that by two immutable things, in which it [is] impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before .

2 - (From geoff's Post dated 09-21-2001 09:05 PM) Quote:

The Scripture says what Dwayne?

Lets see:
With man, it is impossible, with God, nothing is impossible.

However, it is true, [U]God can not do the illogical. Exhaustive foreknowledge is not illiogical, EVEN humans have partial foreknowledge.

End quote.

1 - God's word attributes lying as an impossibility for God.

2 - geoff's word says that God "can not do" the illogical.

And everyone knows what "can not do" basically means.

can not do = it is not possible to do = impossible to do

jobeth
September 26th, 2001, 11:09 PM
Geoff:
I'm still confused.
God doesn't cause it to happen by knowing it will happen.
God causes it to happen by making it happen.

The means God uses to create is His Power, not His Knowledge.

I know how to cook, but I don't cook using "Mind-Power". I cook by actually cooking.

geoff
September 26th, 2001, 11:40 PM
Dwayne:

you have just repeated yourself, and you still dont make any sense... what has God's lying or not lying got to do with this discussion?

It seems to me it has nothing to do with it, and I would appreciate it if you either explained what on earth you are on about, or moved right along.

(note: I have never said God can lie...)

JoBeth:

Saying that God knows what will happen because he will make it happen is not alot different to saying foreknowledge is causative. In fact, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing.

It seems you are holding them as seperate in your mind, probably because you accept that foreknowledge is not causuative. However, because of your particular theological bent, you must also conclude that God causes all things (including sin, as you have said elsewhere), so you end up contradicting yourself by trying to make two diametrically opposed things one and the same..

1Way
September 27th, 2001, 12:05 AM
Pr 27:5 Open rebuke [is] better Than love carefully concealed.

Pr 9:8 Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; Rebuke a wise [man], and he will love you.

Pr 6:16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Pr 28:25 He who is of a proud heart stirs up strife, But he who trusts in the LORD will be prospered.

geoff
September 27th, 2001, 12:25 AM
Still waiting for some sense here...

jobeth
September 27th, 2001, 04:29 PM
Geoff:
So am I.

Whatever do you mean by saying that "God knows what will happen because he will make it happen is not alot different to saying foreknowledge is causative. In fact, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "?

I don't get it. Please explain how they are the same thing.

geoff
September 27th, 2001, 04:46 PM
JoBeth,

its so simple, I wonder why you can not see it...

let me try one last time:

Saying God foreknows because he makes it happen is absolutely no different to saying foreknowledge is causuative...

Causuative means 'causal' or more simply 'made to happen'.

jobeth
September 27th, 2001, 05:01 PM
Geoff:

It just doesn't seem that way to me.

I know I'm going to cook dinner. But I have not yet done so. Dinner is not cooked unless and until I actually get in the kitchen and cook it, EVEN THOUGH I know ahead of time that I will cook dinner.

I foreknow that dinner will be cooked AND YET it is not cooked until I cook it.

In the same way, God foreknows what will happen AND YET it will not happen until God makes it happen.

So they are clearly not the same thing, since one (foreknowlege of the thing or event) preceeds the other (the creation of the thing or event).

Am I missing something?

geoff
September 27th, 2001, 05:05 PM
yes

jobeth
September 29th, 2001, 08:30 PM
Geoff:
Really? Well please show me how they can be the same thing if one preceeds the other?

geoff
September 29th, 2001, 10:08 PM
JoBeth:

This is why you contradict yourself:

If you did not know that you would cook dinner, then you would not cook dinner, because your knowing dinner then causes you to cook dinner, foreknowedge must be (in your view) causal.

It doesnt matter that knowing precedes actions, in your case, it is the knowing that CAUSES the action, which of course, is false.

jobeth
September 30th, 2001, 09:36 PM
Geoff:

because your knowing dinner then causes you to cook dinner,foreknowedge must be (in your view) causal.
Ah. I see what you mean.;)

Because I know what to cook for dinner and I know how to cook it, I have no choice but to cook dinner. My knowledge causes me to cook.
Right?

1Way
October 1st, 2001, 12:53 AM
Jobeth - As I said before and you love to neglect. I said the following:
geoff does make a good point, as long as we grant that thought proceeds action, then God's forethought proceeds Him doing it.

His foreknowledge effectively causes the future via His actions. Or do you say that God acts without forethought and reason? Do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?

TTT

geoff
October 1st, 2001, 01:19 AM
Jobeth,

No, what you indicated was that BECAUSE you KNOW that you are going to cook dinner, you go and cook it.

Therefore, in your view, because something is known... it is done, foreknowledge is therefore casuative.

TULIP-5SOLAS
October 1st, 2001, 09:27 AM
Hey gang,

I figure at least one true-blue Calvinist should be blabbing on this thread. I haven't read all the previous posts and I don't want to intrude, but back when y'all were referencing the verse that says what is impossible with man is possible with God, I think it's good to keep in mind that the subject was spiritual re-birth or being 'born again'. Like Jeff though, I believe God can do anything that isn't 'logically' impossible. People can't do the logically impossible either, of course, but neither can they do everything that is possible, while God can. That may seem like a no-brainer, but it seemed that it was being lost in the shuffle.

geoff
October 1st, 2001, 01:55 PM
Tulip,

Thanks dude, that was a really clear explanation of what I was trying to say...

:D

jobeth
October 1st, 2001, 09:45 PM
1way
You asked: "Do you say that God acts without forethought and reason?"
Of course not. (Did you really need an answer to that question?)

Geoff
You said: "...foreknowledge is therefore causative."
How can that be?
If all you are trying to ascertain is whether I claim that God CAUSES everything, then the answer is "yes" - God is the Sole Creator of All Reality and the Sole Agent of All Events.
The fact that God knows everything that will happen in the future is the RESULT of His Absolute Sovereign control, not the CAUSE.

EDF is neither the agent nor the catalyst of God's power, rather EDF is the PRODUCT of God's sovereignty.

I will admit that when we claim that God certainly knows everything that will happen before it actually happens, we are indeed inferring that He controls everything. Else how could He know it for certain?

geoff
October 1st, 2001, 09:48 PM
JoBeth,

all you are doing is reaffirming that you think God's foreknowledge is casuative.

1Way
October 1st, 2001, 10:02 PM
Jobeth - Plug in the context and you have a God who's rationality proceeds His actions, meaning that in the order of causation, God's rationality is first, then comes His action. Therefore God's rationality causes His actions which causes everything else. Hence God's rationality is causative. If you can't piece all that together, which is really just following the discussion, then,,, nice knowing ya, got more relevant and coherent discussions to attend to.

TTT

jobeth
October 2nd, 2001, 12:28 AM
1way:
I agree that God only acts thoughtfully and rationally and never acts foolish or petty. God is too wise to choose to act foolishly. But that doesn't mean He couldn't. I suppose God could do something completely spontaneous and random if He wanted to. Not that He would, but He could. What do you think?

Geoff:
I just don't want to confuse people by saying that God creates by means of His foreknowledge. That is not the case.

Foreknowledge is not causitive because Foreknowledge, in itself, has no power to create. You've said so yourself. And I agreed with you.

Rather, God has Foreknowledge by means of His being in Absolute Control of Everything. And not the other way around.

geoff
October 2nd, 2001, 01:03 AM
Jobeth,

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

jobeth
October 3rd, 2001, 12:50 AM
Geoff:
The chicken came first.

Evolution Scientists claim that a chicken is just an egg's way of making another egg.

But we know that God created the birds and the animals and all plants with their seed in them. Gen 1:11 "whose seed is in itself".

We Creationists say that an egg or a seed is just God's way of multiplying and replenishing the earth with chickens and fruit and whatnot.

God takes such good care of us, doesn't He?

geoff
October 3rd, 2001, 06:09 AM
JoBeth,

It was meant metaphorically...

TULIP-5SOLAS
October 3rd, 2001, 06:42 AM
geoff,

Hey dude, sorry I misspelled your name :)

jobeth
October 3rd, 2001, 10:19 AM
Geoff:
I don't get it. How is the question "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" a metaphor for the question "Which came first, absolute Foreknowledge or Absolute Sovereignty?"

The power to reproduce a chicken is INHERENT in the chicken.

In the same way, the power of Absolute Foreknowledge is INHERENT in the power of being the Sole Creator of Everything.

Is that what you mean?

Or did you mean that in the same way we cannot know which came first, the chicken or the egg, so we cannot know which is causitive, God's Foreknowledge or God's Creative Power?

geoff
October 3rd, 2001, 03:32 PM
Tulip,

no worries... I always preferede to spell it the other way, but my parents just didnt think when they named me haha



JoBeth:

What came first, God's 'first cause' of all things, or his knowledge that he was going to cause all things?

jobeth
October 3rd, 2001, 07:32 PM
Geoff:
God's foreknowledge PRECEEDED God's Creation of all things.

But, just as you said, (and I've always agreed with you on this point) foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of an action EVEN THOUGH Foreknowledge preceeds action.

This is so by definition. Foreknowledge means to know what will happen BEFORE it happens.

Not everything that happens first causes what happens later.
For instance:
A man marries a woman from Colorado.
Later on, they move to New Zealand.
Therefore, marrying women from Colorado causes you to move to New Zealand.

Here's another one:
Women start wearing bras in their teens.
Women get breast cancer later in life.
Therefore, wearing bras causes breast cancer.

I could go on and on just for fun and then you can dream up some and we could let the others play and have a contest for the most ridiculous.

Seriously, I'm really enjoying responding to these metaphorical questions of yours. But, do you have a point you'd like to make?

geoff
October 3rd, 2001, 10:22 PM
JoBeth:

You *say* foreknowledge does not cause things, however, you *say* that God foreknows things, which He then brings to pass, which is identicle to saying foreknowledge causes things to happen.

You need to correct your statement to 'God foreknows all things which will come to pass' - which of course indicates that there are somethings which are not caused by God, but which he foreknows will happen... this fairly well annihilates the rest of the understanding that you have been promoting around this BBS, as it is completely diochomatic.

God can not cause all things, and have foreknowledge which is not causative, especially if foreknowledge precedes cause.

jobeth
October 4th, 2001, 09:40 PM
Geoff:
Thank you.

Now may I ask you a question?

In your understanding, by what means does God cause things to happen?

geoff
October 4th, 2001, 10:20 PM
JoBeth,

Are you really interested in my understanding?

Are you willing to concede that your position is contradictory?

Probably not, but anyway...

God's means of causing is his word.


God is first cause of all things created.
God exhaustively knows all things.
God brings about His will, by virtue of His word which is His power.
God's foreknowledge plays a part in his bringing about of His will, however it is not the reason for, nor the cause of his action.

jobeth
October 6th, 2001, 02:59 PM
Geoff:

God is first cause of all things created.
No. God is the SOLE cause of all things created.

God exhaustively knows all things.
Yes, including the future. God knows what will happen before it happens.

God brings about His will, by virtue of His word which is His power.
So you admit that God acts and speaks as well as knows. I agree.

God's foreknowledge plays a part in his bringing about of His will, however it is not the reason for, nor the cause of his action.
I agree. I say the same thing is true EVEN IF God exhaustively knows the future.
Is 46:11 yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God foreknows what will happen and God ALSO causes what will happen. So God's foreknowledge is NOT the means by which God causes things to happen, whether He has exhaustive foreknowledge or not. Agreed?

geoff
October 6th, 2001, 06:04 PM
Jobeth

God is the SOLE cause of all things created

ok, accepted.


So God's foreknowledge is NOT the means by which God causes things to happen, whether He has exhaustive foreknowledge or not. Agreed?

Agreed.

jobeth
October 6th, 2001, 09:46 PM
Geoff:
I'm so pleased that we agree.

I have always wanted us to speak as friends. Because that is what we truly are.

Say hello to Amber for me.

geoff
October 6th, 2001, 10:08 PM
JoBeth,

I always agree with that which is true.
I will say Hi to my wife for you - do you know her?

Having agreed with you so far means that so far you have not contradicted yourself.

Previously though, you have said:


God has Foreknowledge by means of His being in Absolute Control [and sole cause] of Everything

and


God knows what will happen, because He's going to make it happen.

So even though you *say* EDF is not casuative (you said: Foreknowledge is not causitive because Foreknowledge, in itself, has no power to create) God foreknows, and does what he foreknows:

God foreknows what will happen AND YET it will not happen until God makes it happen

In other words, dispite what you say, you keep affirming that:
1 God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)
2 God has EDF
3 God will do that which he foreknows
4 because God is sole cause of all things (you include sin/evil)

I say (for clarity's sake):
1 God is sole cause of all things CREATED
2 God has EDF
3 All that God foreknows will occur
4 Some things God foreknows will be caused by him
5 Some things God foreknows will be caused by agents other than God

jobeth
October 8th, 2001, 08:51 PM
Geoff:
It seems to me that we pretty much agree.

For God to have EDF, then the future must be in someway fixed or certain. Else how could God know it?

In your understanding, who makes the future certain?

If it is God who (as Sole Agent) makes the future certain by (internally and externally) affecting, and thereby determining the course of events, then God can know the future simply by foreknowing what He plans to do in the future.

But if entities other than God (multiple agents) genuinely affect and so cause a real alteration in the course of events, then the events of the future are not certain at all.

It does no good to say that the future God knows is certain but can also be genuinely impacted by other agents. Because if a genuine possibility exists for agents other than God to spontaneously alter future events, then how can God know and tell about them beforehand?

geoff
October 8th, 2001, 09:33 PM
JoBeth:

The future is certain because God knows it. It is certain because history is HIS - story. It is certain because God has the power to make of it what He Wills.

I believe that human beings actions are all known to God, there is nothing that is unknown.

Now that you seem to be in agreement, are you still holding to this; that God is so in control that even sin is caused by Him?

Because if you are, then you are still in contradiction with yourself and only giving lipservice to agreement with me.

jobeth
October 8th, 2001, 10:29 PM
Geoff:

The future is certain because God knows it. It is certain because history is HIS - story. It is certain because God has the power to make of it what He Wills.
I agree. Isn't God able to make anything happen that He wants to happen?


Now that you seem to be in agreement, are you still holding to this; that God is so in control that even sin is caused by Him?
Of course, God cannot sin.

If, by "sin", you mean "disobedience to God", then no, that never happens. How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?

If, by "sin", you mean "unbelief" and "disobeying God's laws", then yes that does happen and yes, God is the ONE who causes or allows that to happen. Can anything happen against His will or without His consent?

geoff
October 8th, 2001, 11:14 PM
Isn't God able to make anything happen that He wants to happen?

yes, He can.


If, by "sin", you mean "disobedience to God", then no, that never happens. How can we disobey an Omnicausal God?

Quite easily, you explain how right here:


If, by "sin", you mean "unbelief" and "disobeying God's laws", then yes that does happen and yes, God is the ONE who causes or allows that to happen. Can anything happen against His will or without His consent?

Disobedience to God, and disobeying God's laws are one and the same thing. The first Law that was broken was "do not eat from that tree".

God does NOT cause people to Sin, people CHOOSE to Sin. Sin happens AGAINST the will of God, however that is not to say He has not done something about it. It remains because he ALLOWS it, He does not, and can not cause it.

Of course, there is no point trying to convince you of this one simple thing, as you have your blinkers firmly in place.

jobeth
October 9th, 2001, 07:55 PM
Geoff:
If God can make anything happen that He wants to happen, as you claim He can, then what is the difference between causing a thing to happen and allowing it to happen?

geoff
October 9th, 2001, 08:02 PM
JoBeth,


I think the answer to that is fairly obvious dont you...

Cause indicates culpability. If God causes people to do evil, then he is guilty of Evil.

God allows evil because we have chosen it, and to 'force' us to 'be good' would damage what it means to be his representatives on earth. In fact, even saying 'God allows evil' is not correct. He doesnt allow it. It has already been judged, and all those who are still SINners in the end, will be destroyed. Which is fitting punishment for something God does not allow.

jobeth
October 9th, 2001, 08:20 PM
Geoff:

In fact, even saying 'God allows evil' is not correct. He doesnt allow it. It has already been judged, and all those who are still SINners in the end, will be destroyed. Which is fitting punishment for something God does not allow.
God is either now allowing sin to occur or He isn't.
Which is it?

geoff
October 9th, 2001, 10:20 PM
JoBeth,

In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. If Sin occurs within the will of God, God is guilty of that sin.

Therefore in the BIG picture, Sin is not allowed, God has Judged Sin and will punish it. However, until such time as that final punishment takes place, sin still continues, against the will of God, until all its agents are destroyed.

jobeth
October 10th, 2001, 04:29 PM
Geoff:
You said: "In reality, it is both. He allows sin to occur, FOR THE MOMENT, however, that does not mean that Sin occurs with in His will. "

You agreed with me that God is able to make anything happen that He wants to happen.

So, if, as you say, sin is currently occurring, then it MUST be because God wants it to.

But, you say:"...sin still continues, against the will of God.."

Does God have two minds on the issue of sin, and whether to allow it to occur, even for the moment, or not?

God is either now (currently) allowing sin to occur or He isn't. You cannot say "both". So which is it?

jobeth
October 10th, 2001, 04:35 PM
1way:
I haven't heard your response to this one.

1way:
I agree that God only acts thoughtfully and rationally and never acts foolish or petty. God is too wise to choose to act foolishly. But that doesn't mean He couldn't. I suppose God could do something completely spontaneous and random if He wanted to. Not that He would, but He could. What do you think?

geoff
October 10th, 2001, 06:05 PM
Does God have two minds on the issue of sin, and whether to allow it to occur, even for the moment, or not?

God has One mind, He has judged SIN, and he will destroy it.

However he has not destroyed SIN as yet, and until He does, it continues to exist.


You cannot say "both". So which is it?

God does not PERMIT SIN, he does not ALLOW, or CAUSE SIN, it exists AGAINST his will. Yet it does exist, until He finally destroys it.

jobeth
October 10th, 2001, 10:10 PM
Geoff:

God does not PERMIT SIN, he does not ALLOW, or CAUSE SIN, it exists AGAINST his will.
Does God know that sin is currently occurring?

geoff
October 11th, 2001, 01:04 AM
Does God know that sin is currently occurring?

Yes.

And He also knows that He is going to destroy it.

Therefore we can say that God DOES NOT permit sin, nor does He cause it, although until the Kingdom is fully here, Sin continues, because there are still those who sin, and all are still Sinners.

You really really need to go and study inaugerated eschatology.

jobeth
October 11th, 2001, 10:22 AM
Geoff:
If God knows that sin is currently occurring, and God is able to stop it from occurring if He wanted to, then if He has not yet stopped it, He is currently permitting it to occur.

But you said (and I agree with you) that God does not permit sin.

If inaugerated eschatology teaches that God is currently permitting sin, then it is clearly wrong. For we only do what God permits us to do. Don't you agree?

Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
John 15:5 ... for without me ye can do nothing.
James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
John 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

geoff
October 11th, 2001, 12:53 PM
JoBeth,

If God 'permits' us to sin, then He can not punish us now, can he, because we are doing it with His blessing.

jobeth
October 11th, 2001, 02:43 PM
Geoff:
You said:

If God 'permits' us to sin, then He can not punish us now, can he, because we are doing it with His blessing.
That's exactly right. Which is why I said:
But you said (and I agree with you) that God does not permit sin.
So yes, I have affirmed and do affirm that God does not permit sin.

How often would you say you sin without God's permission or consent?

geoff
October 11th, 2001, 03:15 PM
everytime..


There is NO time you can sin with God's permission.

jobeth
October 11th, 2001, 09:18 PM
Geoff:
So how often do you sin? Did you do it today?

geoff
October 11th, 2001, 11:04 PM
Jobeth,

I AM A SINNER.

I have NOT been perfected, I am not God, I do not possess a spiritual Body, and the Kingdom is not here fully.

jobeth
October 12th, 2001, 06:50 AM
Geoff:
I know you are a sinner. I am asking, though, how often does a person have to sin in order to be called a sinner?

Once a day, twice a month, twice a year?

And is someone who sins every single day a worse sinner than someone who sins less often?

geoff
October 12th, 2001, 02:07 PM
JoBeth:

By sinner, I mean I, and you, and ALL people are in a state of SIN... we still have FLESHLY bodies (flesh meaning bodies that are corruptible, sinful, not perfected, mortal), until we recieve our new bodies, only then will we be sinless....

It doesnt matter how many sinful deeds you or I do... one a second, or one a year, what matters is that ANY sin ANYONE commits... EVEN thinking a bad thought is proof that you, or I, still possess a sin nature.

Getting saved doesnt stop us committing sinful deeds, getting saved starts us on the process of being cleansed from them.
Getting saved gets us FORGIVEN for our sin nature, which will only finally be annhilated when we recieve our new bodies.

jobeth
October 15th, 2001, 10:04 PM
Geoff:
I know that you claim that we cannot have remission of sins and be truly sanctified while in the flesh. But what if you are wrong about that?

What if there are those who are sanctified, here and now?

Acts 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints,
1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What if you should be preaching that remission of sins is possible, rather than saying it is impossible?

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Suppose it's true that Saints have now been set free from the power of sin?
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

And now do not sin?
1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

What if the Saints really are saints?

geoff
October 15th, 2001, 11:21 PM
JoBeth:

Scripture says we are forgiven now, and that we are expected to live like those who will be perfected in the next life...

it does NOT says that even when we sin, we arent sinning...

which is what you are trying to make it out as

jobeth
October 15th, 2001, 11:43 PM
Geoff:
I'm not trying to make out anything that isn't implied in the text, nor do I want to misquote the scripture or take it out of context. Please address the specific verses I guoted.

geoff
October 15th, 2001, 11:51 PM
I did

jobeth
October 16th, 2001, 08:21 PM
Geoff:
Where?

geoff
October 16th, 2001, 08:44 PM
last time I answered you

jobeth
October 16th, 2001, 09:31 PM
Geoff:
Oh that.

That was it?

geoff
October 16th, 2001, 09:38 PM
yep..

Your verses a show we have been forgiven, but not that we are sinless... try again

jobeth
October 17th, 2001, 09:00 PM
Geoff:
Referring to these verses:


Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;
You said:

Your verses a show we have been forgiven, but not that we are sinless... try again
I disagree.

geoff
October 17th, 2001, 11:56 PM
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

Reading through this whole passage you see the force of it is NOT that you are now sinless, but that you have been set free and are expected to sin LESS.

Rom 6:15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

obviously it is who you SUBMIT too, freely, NOT that you are NOW SINLESS.

1 John refers to being set free from BONDAGE to sin, and from the penalty of sin, but else where in 1 John we are told:

1 JOhn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John is here talking about SINFUL DEEDS, not the PRINCIPLE of Sin.

Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts.
The word cleansing is the same word that is used to when talking about beating a stain out of a garment as done by the women in ANE by the riverside.
It does NOT infer that we no longer sin, but rather that the stain of sin is still on us, and by this vigorous cleasning, God will cleanse us of this stain of Sin.

We are Sinless because we are SEEN by God as Justified, not because we are actually sinless. We are still flesh (sinful), and will not become sinless in reality until such time as we are raised in a Spiritual body (sinless) - after Christ's return.

JoBeth, you seem to be extremely nieve about this subject. You dont seem to know anything about justification, sanctification, nor have you even heard of inaugerated eschatology. I am afraid we probably cant continue this... as I am no real expert and yet you dont even know the basics

jobeth
October 18th, 2001, 09:44 PM
Geoff:
Yeah, right. Go you.
The scripture you quoted says:
1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
But you say:"Those who are the Children of God are forgiven for SIN. In that sense we are SIN-less, however, we still commit sinful deads, and need cleansing from those acts. "
Well, if you still need cleansing, then you have not been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

But I have been!

And before you accuse me falsely again, let me say it one more time:
I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.


1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Can you see the difference?

geoff
October 18th, 2001, 10:24 PM
JoBeth:

The problem is the tense and the actual Greek words. They do not translate accurately.

The tense and tone of 'cleanse' is not something that HAS happened only, but something that has happened and will continue to happen.

The word for Sin indicates sinful deeds, however the later passage the word is the word for the 'state' or 'principle' of Sin.

You see, Christ died so that we might be forgiven and set free from the principle of Sin, the state or unrighteousness before God... sinful deeds are only the outworking of this state, and require ongoing attention by us and God.

Sanctification is not just a STATE, it is a state in the eyes of God, however for us, it is a process also.

Just as we are SEEN as justified, but will not actually BE justified until judgement day, we are SEEN as sanctified, but will not ACTUALLY be sanctified until resurrection. We are seen by God as being in these states because we have been imputed with the righeousness and justification of Christ, we do not possess it ourselves. Imputed means 'accounted' or 'seen as' - it is a forensic term, or an accounting term. We are 'legally' justified and sanctified because we seen to possess Christs justification and sanctification.

It is the "already but not yet principle" otherwise known as inaugerated eschatology.


I do not say that I have never sinned or that I have no sin. I only say that I no longer do so.

If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.


Can you see the difference?

I do.... you do not.

jobeth
October 18th, 2001, 11:05 PM
Geoff:
I tell you that I have so been cleansed from ALL unrighteousness.

I have been set free from sin.
Freed from the PENALTY of sin. (i.e. not guilty)
Freed from the POWER of sin. (i.e. I no longer sin)
And freed from the PRESENSE of sin. (i.e. Rather, I know all things work together for good)

I know you understand what I am saying. But you do not believe me because you have not had the experience of cleansing that I have had. Do you think that a thing is true only if it has happened to you personally?


If you say you no longer sin you are either a liar, or misguided.

Really? The Pharisees said the same thing about Jesus that you are saying about me: "Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner."

Did they really know or did they only CLAIM to know?

John 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin?
And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

geoff
October 19th, 2001, 12:38 AM
I dont subscribe to your form of Gnosticism...