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Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 08:58 AM
I disagree with your non-use of the title Pastor. Pastor is a title given by God to those who hold that office in the church.
Where in the Bible is "Pastor" used as a title? Show me a verse that contains "Pastor Paul", "Pastor Timothy", "Pastor Silas", etc.

Reverend on the other hand is inappropriate as it assume the person being referred to is 'more revered' than others in the room.
From my observation, pastors are often more revered than others in the room too.

Caledvwlch
February 22nd, 2006, 09:01 AM
If nothing else, Shepherd might be a more Biblically appropriate title.

dataanapar
February 22nd, 2006, 09:03 AM
If nothing else, Shepherd might be a more Biblically appropriate title.

Or servant of the Lord.

Mr. 5020
February 22nd, 2006, 09:04 AM
Where in the Bible is "Pastor" used as a title? Show me a verse that contains "Pastor Paul", "Pastor Timothy", "Pastor Silas", etc.

From my observation, pastors are often more revered than others in the room too.As far as I know, the word pastor is only in the Bible one time.

Ephesians 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:11;&version=9;)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
But in this phrase, it seems like a title to me.

Turbo
February 22nd, 2006, 09:04 AM
If nothing else, Shepherd might be a more Biblically appropriate title.
Pastor means shepherd. They're synonyms.

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 09:11 AM
As far as I know, the word pastor is only in the Bible one time.

Ephesians 4:11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:11;&version=9;)
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
But in this phrase, it seems like a title to me.
In the NT, in the translation I'm using (KJV), that is the only time it's used. Would you say those are titles or roles some members take on in the Church (Body of Christ)? They look like roles to me. I know Paul is sometimes referred to as "Apostle Paul", but even that I don't think is in the Bible. And if those are titles, why don't you ever hear "Prophet Bob", "Evangelist Jack", or "Teacher Phil"?

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 09:13 AM
Hey Lucky, you are making some good points that I have not considered.

:thumb:

Mr. 5020
February 22nd, 2006, 09:21 AM
In the NT, in the translation I'm using (KJV), that is the only time it's used. Would you say those are titles or roles some members take on in the Church (Body of Christ)? They look like roles to me. I know Paul is sometimes referred to as "Apostle Paul", but even that I don't think is in the Bible. And if those are titles, why don't you ever hear "Prophet Bob", "Evangelist Jack", or "Teacher Phil"?A title does not have to come before your name.

Romans 11:13 (KJV)
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

2 Corinthians 1:1 (KJV)
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 09:38 AM
A title does not have to come before your name.

Romans 11:13 (KJV)
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

2 Corinthians 1:1 (KJV)
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Those don't sound like formal titles to me, though they are perfect descriptions of Paul's role. If you were talking to Paul, would you say "Paul-an-apostle-of-Jesus-Christ-by-the-will-of-God, can I get you a glass of water?" Of course not.

Mr. 5020
February 22nd, 2006, 09:39 AM
Those don't sound like formal titles to me. If you were talking to Paul, would you say "Paul-an-apostle-of-Jesus-Christ-by-the-will-of-God, can I get you a glass of water?" Of course not.No, we say "Apostle Paul." :D

dataanapar
February 22nd, 2006, 09:40 AM
Those don't sound like formal titles to me. If you were talking to Paul, would you say "Paul-an-apostle-of-Jesus-Christ-by-the-will-of-God, can I get you a glass of water?" Of course not.

I would say that. Just as I would address Christ as "Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour of my soul".

Mr. 5020
February 22nd, 2006, 09:42 AM
I would say that. Just as I would address Christ as "Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour of my soul".I agree.

Geez, Lucky, why do you have to make things so complicated? From now on, instead of saying "Pastor Dwayne," I'll say, "Dwayne, the guy who preaches on Sunday and Wednesday and has spiritual authority over the church." Is that better?

dataanapar
February 22nd, 2006, 09:44 AM
I don't even know what a sould is, but I agree.


What do you mean "sould"?

Mr. 5020
February 22nd, 2006, 09:46 AM
What do you mean "sould"?What are you talking about? ;)

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 09:59 AM
No, we say "Apostle Paul." :D
That's when it becomes a formal title. I believe there is potential danger in using our roles in the Church as titles, especially when "Pastor" is the only title used. I have no problem with saying "Jethro is a pastor over at Warmpews Church in Townsville", that's describing his role. When it's "Pastor Jethro", that's another story. It's easy to see the potential danger in using titles like "Father", "Priest", "Reverend", "Pope", but "Pastor" often gets a free pass. Just not from me. :D

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 10:05 AM
From now on, instead of saying "Pastor Dwayne," I'll say, "Dwayne, the guy who preaches on Sunday and Wednesday and has spiritual authority over the church." Is that better?
Would calling him Dwayne be too complicated for you?

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 10:25 AM
Would calling him Dwayne be too complicated for you?When we use the title "Pastor Dwayne" we can quickly explain Dwayne's position in the church with one word that everyone is already up to speed on.

When we say "Pastor Dwayne" we are saying....

Dwayne is the shepherd of our flock.

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 10:28 AM
When we use the title "Pastor Dwayne" we can quickly explain Dwayne's position in the church with one word that everyone is already up to speed on.

When we say "Pastor Dwayne" we are saying....

Dwayne is the shepherd of our flock.


I think that is fine, if you are not addressing Dwayne.

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 10:31 AM
I think that is fine, if you are not addressing Dwayne.:confused:

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 10:35 AM
:confused:

In other words, if you want to call him Pastor Dwayne when speaking to other people, it is fine, because it gives them a reference of which Dwayne, and what his position is. But, there is no reason to say "How are you today, Pastor Dwayne".

See what I'm saying Administrator Knight?

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 10:46 AM
In other words, if you want to call him Pastor Dwayne when speaking to other people, it is fine, because it gives them a reference of which Dwayne, and what his position is. But, there is no reason to say "How are you today, Pastor Dwayne".

See what I'm saying Administrator Knight?OK... I can see that.

After all, I call Bob "Bob".

And not "Pastor Bob".

However, I don't see why it would be wrong to call him "Pastor Bob" if I wanted to. Do you?

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 10:52 AM
OK... I can see that.

After all, I call Bob "Bob".

And not "Pastor Bob".

However, I don't see why it would be wrong to call him "Pastor Bob" if I wanted to. Do you?

Wrong? Probably not. I just think that Lucky's point (and he will correct me if I am wrong), is that we don't want to give people the impression that they deserve some kind of special respect or reverence.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 10:57 AM
I am opposed to titles like Reverend, His Holiness, etc. These titles wrongly exalt one man over another, when Jesus clearly instructed that Believers don't do that.
25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. Luke 22I feel that the word Pastor is often used as a title to exalt one man above the church members, as though the average church member were not a minister of God or a priest. However, the Bible reveals that all believers are ministers of God, and all believers are holy, royal priests.
Isaiah 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

2 Corinthians 6:4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses...

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:As holy, royal priests and ministers of God, we serve each other in various roles, some teachers, some pastors, some apostles, etc.

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 10:58 AM
Wrong? Probably not. I just think that Lucky's point (and he will correct me if I am wrong), is that we don't want to give people the impression that they deserve some kind of special respect or reverence.Reverence is nothing more than "deep respect", I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with giving special respect to certain folks.

Afterall.... there are all sorts of examples of that in the Bible i.e., widows, older men etc.

Me thinks this is a bit like making a mountain errrrrrrrr maybe a small mound out of a molehill. :D

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 11:01 AM
Reverence is nothing more than "deep respect", I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with giving special respect to certain folks.

Afterall.... there are all sorts of examples of that in the Bible i.e., widows, older men etc.

Me thinks this is a bit like making a mountain errrrrrrrr maybe a small mound out of a molehill. :DPerhaps, but seeing how God is no respecter of persons, I'm just trying to follow his example. :D

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 11:06 AM
"It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Adam
February 22nd, 2006, 11:11 AM
Pastor or Shepherd is ok. However....some qualification is in order.

The western view of Pastor, I believe, is overblown. Especially here in the United States, where in many churches, the Pastor is the Preacher, the Teacher, the Shepherd, the Visionary, the Counselor, an Elder, bulletin printer, format organizer, sidewalk shoveler, and so on.

I believe that specifically, the Pastor is a shepherd. He is one who cares for the flock, keeps a watchful eye on them, and is a visionary for the church. He assesses the needs of the entire local church and is a 'project manager' so to speak.

He doesn't have to necessarily be the Preacher. The preacher is one who gets various doctrines, theologies and applications to the local Body.

The Teacher, also delineated by Paul, is one who addresses more specific questions and topics in a teacher/student relationship.

more later as it comes to me

Daniel50
February 22nd, 2006, 11:13 AM
A pastor is a shepherd.The Greek word poimen occurs 17 times in the New Testament.
Only one time it translated "Pastor",which is in Ephesian 4;11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

The other 16 times it is translated "shepherd".So in Eph 4;11paul is saying that the pastor is to be the shepherd of his flock.

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

A real pastor is commissione by God to do his job.

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 11:14 AM
Perhaps, but seeing how God is no respecter of persons, I'm just trying to follow his example. :DYou don't respect certain people more than others? :think:

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 11:17 AM
more later as it comes to meAre you getting special revelation??? ;)

Sozo
February 22nd, 2006, 11:21 AM
You don't respect certain people more than others? :think:I guess I do in some respects, but not in someone's position in Christ. I don't trust anyone between me and God as having any information or authority that I can not get directly from God.

Daniel50
February 22nd, 2006, 11:23 AM
A shepherd heart is can not be fabricated .It can not be recieved at Bible school.
You may be good pastor,not good teacher of the word of God..............

Knight
February 22nd, 2006, 11:23 AM
I guess I do in some respects, but not in someone's position in Christ. I don't trust anyone between me and God as having any information or authority that I can not get directly from God.I agree with that answer 100% :up:

Adam
February 22nd, 2006, 11:25 AM
Are you getting special revelation??? ;)Yes. :wink:

BTW, in regards to my above post, I believe that the "Government" of the local church (which is a God given gift btw) should resemble a monarchy.

Instead of King, you have Pastor as head.

The Preacher, Teacher, Elders, Deacons all report directly to the Pastor.

The Elders not only aid in overseeing church affairs such as finances and direction, but also act as judges. A healthy church might even have it's own church court that meets weekly where the Elders or Judges should hear matters pertaining to it's members and their dealings or conflicts with one another.

truthman

Daniel50
February 22nd, 2006, 11:27 AM
I agree with that answer 100% :up:

Pastor.Sozo...........Or Bishop Sozo.....M.B.A.,,,,,,,

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 12:20 PM
I am opposed to titles like Reverend, His Holiness, etc. These titles wrongly exalt one man over another, when Jesus clearly instructed that Believers don't do that.

I feel that the word Pastor is often used as a title to exalt one man above the church members...
:thumb:

I don't trust anyone between me and God as having any information or authority that I can not get directly from God.
:thumb:

GuySmiley
February 22nd, 2006, 12:21 PM
I see it kinda like calling a cop Officer Smith, or a doctor Dr. Smith. If I was close friends with them, I'd just call them Joe.

Also, I think the use of the word pastor is loose today. Pastor means shepherd, but I think most pastors today are more teachers. I see the true use of pastor to be someone who relates to the 'flock' and helps them personally. My view of this is probably because I grew up in (and still attend) a large church where its really not possible for the 'pastor' to have personal relationships with everyone.

Lucky
February 22nd, 2006, 01:02 PM
Pastor or Shepherd is ok. However....some qualification is in order.

The western view of Pastor, I believe, is overblown. Especially here in the United States, where in many churches, the Pastor is the Preacher, the Teacher, the Shepherd, the Visionary, the Counselor, an Elder, bulletin printer, format organizer, sidewalk shoveler, and so on.

I believe that specifically, the Pastor is a shepherd. He is one who cares for the flock, keeps a watchful eye on them, and is a visionary for the church. He assesses the needs of the entire local church and is a 'project manager' so to speak.

He doesn't have to necessarily be the Preacher. The preacher is one who gets various doctrines, theologies and applications to the local Body.

The Teacher, also delineated by Paul, is one who addresses more specific questions and topics in a teacher/student relationship.

more later as it comes to me
I don't have a problem with any of that per se.

Yes. :wink:

BTW, in regards to my above post, I believe that the "Government" of the local church (which is a God given gift btw) should resemble a monarchy.

Instead of King, you have Pastor as head.
:chuckle: Sorry your Majesty, but coming from a pastor... that's funny.

The Preacher, Teacher, Elders, Deacons all report directly to the Pastor.
Interestingly, in Scripture, teachers are grouped with pastors. Elders and deacons are grouped together in a different area of scripture. Here's what I believe:

Bishops/overseers/elders (I prefer elders) and deacons are the governmental roles. In Ephesians, we're dealing with roles that are best explained as <insert Eph 4:12>. Now there can be overlap. A pastor should be an elder. In 1 Peter 5, elders are exhorted to feed the flock, to take care of it. Thus, pastors and elders are essentially the same. A local church doesn't need to be limited to one pastor just as it doesn't need to be limited to one evangelist or one teacher. If you want to think of it as a monarchy, okay, but Christ the Chief Shepherd is King.

The Elders not only aid in overseeing church affairs such as finances and direction, but also act as judges. A healthy church might even have it's own church court that meets weekly where the Elders or Judges should hear matters pertaining to it's members and their dealings or conflicts with one another.
I don't have a problem with any of that.

PastorZ77
February 22nd, 2006, 01:08 PM
For me it is somehwat endearing, and reverent in and of itself, when I use it to refer to someone else. There are men of God I admire greatly and they are pastors and I call them "pastor".

That said, there are other pastors that for whatever reason I don't have such a great affinity for and I prefer to refer to them as reverend personally, just because of what "pastor" means to me.

As for ME (pastorz77), I signed up for TOL a long time ago, when i FIRST started pastoring, so I was, in a sense "proud" to have begun that journey. If I signed up today, I probably would not give myself that moniker, not because I think anything is wrong with it, but because of how it may be perceived.

-Adam

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 01:25 PM
Pastor.Sozo.........Actually, I do consider Sozo a pastor. In my opinion, he fits that role well.

In my opinion--and I believe the Bible supports this--a Pastor is a like a waiter and a bouncer combined. He feeds the sheep, and chases out the wolves. A difficult and essential role in the body.

So many who call themselves Pastor, don't feed the sheep, and actually invite the wolves to dine. :sigh:

PastorZ77
February 22nd, 2006, 01:36 PM
In my opinion--and I believe the Bible supports this--a Pastor is a like a waiter and a bouncer combined. He feeds the sheep, and chases out the wolves. A difficult and essential role in the body.

There's so much more to it than this. Some of which one could never know unless they were a part. Psalm 23 is a good place to start however.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 02:05 PM
There's so much more to it than this. Some of which one could never know unless they were a part.How would you know?

Explain what is meant by "green pastures" and "still waters"in Psalm 23.
Then explain what is meant by "he restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake." If you are a pastor, and understand what a pastor truly does, enlighten us.

A pastor is a servant (waiter) and guardian (bouncer). That is his primary role in the church. If you disagree, then prove me wrong, rather than pointing to scriptures I doubt you understand.

PastorZ77
February 22nd, 2006, 02:10 PM
How would you know?

Because I've been pastoring for nearly 7 years.




Explain what is meant by "green pastures" and "still waters"in Psalm 23.
Then explain what is meant by "he restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake." If you are a pastor, and understand what a pastor truly does, enlighten us.

A pastor is a servant (waiter) and guardian (bouncer). That is his primary role in the church. If you disagree, then prove me wrong, rather than pointing to scriptures I doubt you understand.

Here goes you great "Christians" again! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Untie your undershorts there hotshot...

I never said these two examples you presented were not accurate. If you read well enough you saw that I said there is more to it than this.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 02:59 PM
Because I've been pastoring for nearly 7 years.Sure.


Here goes you great "Christians" again! Woo hoo!

:rolleyes:

Untie your undershorts there hotshot...First the smoke...


I never said these two examples you presented were not accurate. If you read well enough you saw that I said there is more to it than this....then the mirror.

Yes, you said, "there is more to it than this." Then you pointed to Psalm 23.

I don't think you can explain what more there is to being a shepard (pastor) than feeding sheeping and protecting the flock from wolves. Furthermore, I don't think you understand Psalm 23.

PastorZ77
February 22nd, 2006, 03:03 PM
Sure.

First the smoke...

...then the mirror.

Yes, you said, "there is more to it than this." Then you pointed to Psalm 23.

I don't think you can explain what more there is to being a shepard (pastor) than feeding sheeping and protecting the flock from wolves. Furthermore, I don't think you understand Psalm 23.

You people are hillarioius, it's a good thing you learned everything you needed to in kindergarten, otherwise you wouldn't know a thing since you know so much now and cant learn anything else.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 03:15 PM
You people are hillarioius, it's a good thing you learned everything you needed to in kindergarten, otherwise you wouldn't know a thing since you know so much now and cant learn anything else.YOU said, "there is more to it [being a pastor] than this." What is the "more to this" you are claiming. Explain, or go away.

YOU pointed to Psalm 23, so explain how that describes more than feeding sheep and protecting them. Explain, or go away.

If you could explain yourself, you wouldn't be evasive about it, nor would you be getting defensive about it. Typical of posers that call themsleves pastors.

PastorZ77
February 22nd, 2006, 03:23 PM
YOU said, "there is more to it [being a pastor] than this." What is the "more to this" you are claiming. Explain, or go away.

YOU pointed to Psalm 23, so explain how that describes more than feeding sheep and protecting them. Explain, or go away.

If you could explain yourself, you wouldn't be evasive about it, nor would you be getting defensive about it. Typical of posers that call themsleves pastors.

Do you praise the Lord with those lips?

You should watch out...really.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 03:32 PM
Do you praise the Lord with those lips?Are you a stupid hypocrite, or just a hypocrite?

Read back through your last posts and see if you can spot the hypocrisy. Read slowly.


You should watch out...really.I am watching out for you, poser. :Patrol:

You should not claim there is more to something someone else says, unless you are able to explain what that something more is.

Daniel50
February 22nd, 2006, 07:30 PM
Actually, I do consider Sozo a pastor. In my opinion, he fits that role well.

In my opinion--and I believe the Bible supports this--a Pastor is a like a waiter and a bouncer combined. He feeds the sheep, and chases out the wolves. A difficult and essential role in the body.

So many who call themselves Pastor, don't feed the sheep, and actually invite the wolves to dine. :sigh:

Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. {because...: or, without a shepherd}

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].

7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; {because...: or, without a shepherd}

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. {As...: Heb. According to the seeking}

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.

kmoney
February 22nd, 2006, 07:33 PM
Reverence is nothing more than "deep respect", I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with giving special respect to certain folks.

Afterall.... there are all sorts of examples of that in the Bible i.e., widows, older men etc.

Me thinks this is a bit like making a mountain errrrrrrrr maybe a small mound out of a molehill. :D
I agree with that.

elohiym
February 22nd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. {because...: or, without a shepherd}

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].

7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; {because...: or, without a shepherd}

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. {As...: Heb. According to the seeking}

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.An excellent choice of scripture, Chandru.

Daniel50
February 22nd, 2006, 10:11 PM
[QUOTE]An excellent choice of scripture, Chandru.


Thank you Sir......

Lucky
March 6th, 2006, 02:11 AM
That's when it becomes a formal title. I believe there is potential danger in using our roles in the Church as titles, especially when "Pastor" is the only title used.
The danger that I'm talking about is that it threatens to divide the one Body into different ranks, based on title. All of us in the one Body are under one Lord. We are not under Pastors. They have no spiritual authority over us, which I know at least one person here believes:

From now on, instead of saying "Pastor Dwayne," I'll say, "Dwayne, the guy who preaches on Sunday and Wednesday and has spiritual authority over the church."

swanca99
March 6th, 2006, 05:09 AM
My Plymouth Brethren background is showing here, but...

I think the view that a pastor is an elder with the gift of leadership and "shepherding" is more consistent with Scripture. Even among protestants, the pastor/people relationship smacks too much of the clergy/laity system.

Even among Brethren assemblies, though, I've seen a lot of full-time staff members who bear the title of "pastor." This is very ironic given that the Plymouth Brethren originated as a split from the Anglican Church largely in rebellion against the latter's clergy/laity system.

Mr. 5020
March 26th, 2007, 01:26 PM
The danger that I'm talking about is that it threatens to divide the one Body into different ranks, based on title. All of us in the one Body are under one Lord. We are not under Pastors. They have no spiritual authority over us, which I know at least one person here believes:Correction: two people. :)

Yes. :wink:

BTW, in regards to my above post, I believe that the "Government" of the local church (which is a God given gift btw) should resemble a monarchy.

Instead of King, you have Pastor as head.

Mr. 5020
March 26th, 2007, 01:32 PM
The danger that I'm talking about is that it threatens to divide the one Body into different ranks, based on title. All of us in the one Body are under one Lord. We are not under Pastors. They have no spiritual authority over us, which I know at least one person here believes:I'm not sure exactly what the problem is here. I'm not saying that my pastor has spiritual authority over me, as a Christian. The Bible is my authority, and if my pastor was to do something that I believed was in contradiction with the Bible, I would address it.

However, I do believe that God has given the pastor authority over the church. This simply means that the church, as an organization, follows the pastor's direction. What is the problem with this exactly?

Jackson
March 26th, 2007, 01:51 PM
In the NT, in the translation I'm using (KJV), that is the only time it's used. Would you say those are titles or roles some members take on in the Church (Body of Christ)? They look like roles to me. I know Paul is sometimes referred to as "Apostle Paul", but even that I don't think is in the Bible. And if those are titles, why don't you ever hear "Prophet Bob", "Evangelist Jack", or "Teacher Phil"?
G4166
ποιμήν
poimēn
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.


Total KJV Occurrences: 18
shepherd, 13
Mat_9:36, Mat_25:32, Mat_26:31, Mar_6:34, Mar_14:27, Joh_10:2, Joh_10:11-12 (3), Joh_10:14, Joh_10:16, Heb_13:20, 1Pe_2:25
shepherds, 4
Luk_2:8, Luk_2:15, Luk_2:18, Luk_2:20
pastors, 1
Eph_4:11

Psalmist
March 26th, 2007, 01:51 PM
That's when it becomes a formal title. I believe there is potential danger in using our roles in the Church as titles, especially when "Pastor" is the only title used. I have no problem with saying "Jethro is a pastor over at Warmpews Church in Townsville", that's describing his role. When it's "Pastor Jethro", that's another story. It's easy to see the potential danger in using titles like "Father", "Priest", "Reverend", "Pope", but "Pastor" often gets a free pass. Just not from me. :D

:think: RABBI, what happened to Rabbi :confused:

"Pastor" often gets a free pass, is that the pastor's discount?

I myself think "Pastor" is a less pretentious "Reverend"

Psalmist
March 26th, 2007, 02:46 PM
Ezekiel 34:1 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe [be] to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks?

3 Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: [but] ye feed not the flock.

4 The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up [that which was] broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them.

5 And they were scattered, because [there is] no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. {because...: or, without a shepherd}

6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek [after them].

7 Therefore, ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

8 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to every beast of the field, because [there was] no shepherd, neither did my shepherds search for my flock, but the shepherds fed themselves, and fed not my flock; {because...: or, without a shepherd}

9 Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD;

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. {As...: Heb. According to the seeking}

13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

14 I will feed them in a good pasture, and upon the high mountains of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie in a good fold, and [in] a fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.

15 I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord GOD.

16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
Good verse selection.



Here are somemore . . .

Yes, they are greedy dogs which never have enough. And they are shepherds who cannot understand; They all look to their own way, every one for his own gain, from his own territory. Isaiah 56:11 <> For the shepherds have become dull-hearted, and have not sought the LORD; therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered. Jeremiah 10:21 <> "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD. Jeremiah 3:1 <> 34 "Wail, shepherds, and cry! Roll about in the ashes, you leaders of the flock! For the days of your slaughter and your dispersions are fulfilled; You shall fall like a precious vessel. 35 And the shepherds will have no way to flee, nor the leaders of the flock to escape. 36 A voice of the cry of the shepherds, and a wailing of the leaders to the flock will be heard. For the LORD has plundered their pasture, 37 and the peaceful dwellings are cut down because of the Fierce anger of the LORD.” Jeremiah 25:34-36, 37

"My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; they have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; they have forgotten their resting place.” Jeremiah 50:6

3a There is the sound of wailing shepherds! <> 17 Woe to the worthless shepherd, who leaves the flock! A word shall be against his arm And against his right eye; His arm shall completely wither, And his right eye shall be totally blinded. Zech. 11:3a, 17

Psalmist
March 26th, 2007, 03:30 PM
Pastor or Shepherd is ok. However....some qualification is in order.

The western view of Pastor, I believe, is overblown. Especially here in the United States, where in many churches, the Pastor is the Preacher, the Teacher, the Shepherd, the Visionary, the Counselor, an Elder, bulletin printer, format organizer, sidewalk shoveler, and so on.

I believe that specifically, the Pastor is a shepherd. He is one who cares for the flock, keeps a watchful eye on them, and is a visionary for the church. He assesses the needs of the entire local church and is a 'project manager' so to speak.

He doesn't have to necessarily be the Preacher. The preacher is one who gets various doctrines, theologies and applications to the local Body.

The Teacher, also delineated by Paul, is one who addresses more specific questions and topics in a teacher/student relationship.

more later as it comes to me

I agree with the "overblown" statement, and your assessment about "the Pastor is . . . "

My wallet card and framed document states, "Reverend . . ." However I don't use it all that much.

At the nursing home and and funeral homes they call me "Pastor . . ." and I am also listed as "Chaplain . . ."

So I'll leave it at that, it is courtesy, it is just title, a designation. Just as Jesus said, "Not all who say Lord, Lord . . ." - So it is that not ALL who have "Pastor" in front of their name are, especially "nots" should know better.

Lucky
March 26th, 2007, 05:45 PM
However, I do believe that God has given the pastor authority over the church.
Why?

Mr. 5020
March 27th, 2007, 12:58 AM
Why?Because the Bible says the God has appointed some to be pastors. Previously in this thread, it was agreed upon that the word pastor could easily be substituted with shepherd.

Shepherds typically have authority over their flock, do they not?

Lucky
March 27th, 2007, 04:29 PM
Because the Bible says the God has appointed some to be pastors. Previously in this thread, it was agreed upon that the word pastor could easily be substituted with shepherd.

Shepherds typically have authority over their flock, do they not?
Sure. Though I don't think people ever talk about a shepherd's authority over a bunch of dumb animals. And it's certainly not a spiritual authority. Sheep don't have spirits. We do. But no man has authority over mine.

Mr. 5020
March 27th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Sure. Though I don't think people ever talk about a shepherd's authority over a bunch of dumb animals. And it's certainly not a spiritual authority. Sheep don't have spirits. We do. But no man has authority over mine.I didn't say that he has authority over yours. I said he has authority over the church as an organization.