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bob b
January 26th, 2006, 02:11 PM
Creed
by Steve Turner

We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin

We believe everything is OK

as long as you don't hurt anyone

to the best of your definition of hurt,

and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and

after marriage.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

We believe that adultery is fun.

We believe that sodomy’s OK.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything's getting better

despite evidence to the contrary.

The evidence must be investigated

And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something in horoscopes

UFO's and bent spoons.

Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,

Mohammed, and ourselves.

He was a good moral teacher though we think

His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same-

at least the one that we read was.

They all believe in love and goodness.

They only differ on matters of creation,

sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing

Because when you ask the dead what happens

they say nothing.

If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its

compulsory heaven for all

excepting perhaps

Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn

We believe in Masters and Johnson

What's selected is average.

What's average is normal.

What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.

We believe there are direct links between warfare and

bloodshed.

Americans should beat their guns into tractors .

And the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.

It's only his behavior that lets him down.

This is the fault of society.

Society is the fault of conditions.

Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that

is right for him.

Reality will adapt accordingly.

The universe will readjust.

History will alter.

We believe that there is no absolute truth

excepting the truth

that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,

And the flowering of individual thought.

If chance be

the Father of all flesh,

disaster is his rainbow in the sky

and when you hear

State of Emergency!

Sniper Kills Ten!

Troops on Rampage!

Whites go Looting!

Bomb Blasts School!

It is but the sound of man

worshipping his maker.

Steve Turner, (English journalist), "Creed," his satirical poem on the modern mind. Taken from Ravi Zacharias’ book Can Man live Without God? Pages 42-44

noguru
January 26th, 2006, 02:30 PM
Creed
by Steve Turner

We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin

We believe everything is OK

as long as you don't hurt anyone

to the best of your definition of hurt,

and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and

after marriage.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

We believe that adultery is fun.

We believe that sodomy’s OK.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything's getting better

despite evidence to the contrary.

The evidence must be investigated

And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something in horoscopes

UFO's and bent spoons.

Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,

Mohammed, and ourselves.

He was a good moral teacher though we think

His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same-

at least the one that we read was.

They all believe in love and goodness.

They only differ on matters of creation,

sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing

Because when you ask the dead what happens

they say nothing.

If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its

compulsory heaven for all

excepting perhaps

Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn

We believe in Masters and Johnson

What's selected is average.

What's average is normal.

What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.

We believe there are direct links between warfare and

bloodshed.

Americans should beat their guns into tractors .

And the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.

It's only his behavior that lets him down.

This is the fault of society.

Society is the fault of conditions.

Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that

is right for him.

Reality will adapt accordingly.

The universe will readjust.

History will alter.

We believe that there is no absolute truth

excepting the truth

that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,

And the flowering of individual thought.

If chance be

the Father of all flesh,

disaster is his rainbow in the sky

and when you hear

State of Emergency!

Sniper Kills Ten!

Troops on Rampage!

Whites go Looting!

Bomb Blasts School!

It is but the sound of man

worshipping his maker.

Steve Turner, (English journalist), "Creed," his satirical poem on the modern mind. Taken from Ravi Zacharias’ book Can Man live Without God? Pages 42-44

Bob, since we are sharing poetry, I've got one for your.

Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door.
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Blood rack barbed wire
Polititians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man.

That is by King Crimson from the album "Court of the Crimson King". You see the strange thing about a lot of poetry, is that it often makes a powerful statement. But in doing so it can be seen that very few of the lyrics are entirely and completely true.

I can point out at least eight things that are inaccurate with your poem. Can you do the same for the one I chose?

Lighthouse
January 26th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Okay, noguru. Point them out.

noguru
January 26th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Okay, noguru. Point them out.

OK here are the first 9.



"We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin

We believe everything is OK

as long as you don't hurt anyone

to the best of your definition of hurt,

and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during, and

after marriage.

We believe in the therapy of sin.

We believe that adultery is fun."

Conflating Marx, Freud and Darwin's ideas is a common mistake made by anti-modernists.

Who believes that everything is OK. I certainly don't. And I don't know any one who says that.

Hurting someone can be either malicious or through negligence. I do believe that some have differing views on the latter. But I am pretty sure most modern people oppose malice.

Defining hurt is not the problem. Assigning blame is.

What is meant by We believe in sex? Is the opposite not believing in sex?

Therapy of sin? Is he referring to Erasmus's idea that a foolish mans follies can lead to wisdom? This is not the same as sin as therapy. It called learning from your mistakes. Do you not agree with the wisdom of learning from your mistakes.

Tell me exactly who believe that adultery is fun?



And these two are problematic, as well.



We believe that sodomy’s OK.

We believe that taboos are taboo.

Lighthouse
January 26th, 2006, 11:14 PM
noguru-
I think you misread the poem. And I think you misunderstood who it was in reference to. And the fact that it was satire.

noguru
January 27th, 2006, 12:28 AM
noguru-
I think you misread the poem. And I think you misunderstood who it was in reference to. And the fact that it was satire.

OK. Who is it in referrence to? I'm sorry Lighthouse but I am weary of these knee-jerk antimodernist critiques of the contemporary world. Its way too to claim that at some point in the past (their not sure exactly which century, decade, year, or day) everything was better. Easy to claim this, but when asked when this golden era was there is no answer forthcoming.

Lighthouse
January 27th, 2006, 06:08 PM
Well, ng, it wasn't in reference to us. Obviously we don' view the workd that way. We no the difference between right and wrong. But, as you can clearly see, the majority of the world does not. And that's nothing new. The Bible was clear on the fact that those of the world do not know the difference between right and wrong, and they don't even care. Sodomy [homosexuality] is legal in America these days. And that's because the lawmakers, and the majority of voters think it should be. That means they think it's okay. And they believe in evolution [Darwinism], and they believe in socialism [Marxism], and they even believe in psychology [Freud], above the Lord. They believe in "live and let live," which means that they think anything, and everything, you want to believe is okay, as long as you don't push it on them. They believe that you shouldn't ever tell someone they're wrong, because you might hurt their feelings. They believe fornication [sex outside of marriage] is okay. And they even are okay with adultery. And those who commit adultery think it's quite fun, or else they wouldn't be doing it.

Now for the last one, about taboos, I'm not even sure what that line means, and so I have no clue why you feel it's problematic.

noguru
January 28th, 2006, 03:49 AM
I don't believe in evolution, but I think it is the best explanation for the evidence we have. I don't believe in Marxism, but I think that charity works in some cases. I don't believe in psychology, but I think that there are many benefits to a psycho-spiritual approach to therapy for those who are mentally and emotionaly lost and confused.

Originally the defintion of sodomy was sex other than the missionary position, even between husband and wife.

And just because someone doesn't want to force their morality upon everyone else in the world, does not mean that the person agrees with other peoples morality. Are you saying that we cannot let people have free will, and that they must all live by our rules? Do you believe this country should be a theocracy, with laws based strictly on the morality of the Bible?

I don't know if you noticed but I labeled my political view as "more right than left". You have labeled yours "right wing zealot". I guess you and I differ on some of these issues. I can't remember anywhere in the NT where Jesus said to force our views on those who weren't interested. He didn't even try to overthrow the Roman governent that was certainly a very secular governemt. In fact what he said was "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, but render unto God that which is God's". He only taught those who sought his guidance. He realized that you cannot teach those who do not seek your guidance. And that doing so would criple his cause. He was more like a conservative Jew in this manner. Now Paul came along and created what we now know as the conservative Christian movement. But I think you're even taking further than Paul would have taken it.

sentientsynth
January 28th, 2006, 03:53 AM
Cat's foot iron claw
Neuro-surgeons scream for more
At paranoia's poison door.
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Blood rack barbed wire
Polititians' funeral pyre
Innocents raped with napalm fire
Twenty first century schizoid man.

Death seed blind man's greed
Poets' starving children bleed
Nothing he's got he really needs
Twenty first century schizoid man.




Who will answer? Who will answer?

bob b
January 28th, 2006, 09:35 AM
{Tell me exactly who believe that adultery is fun?}

Exactly the one's who engage in it?

noguru
January 28th, 2006, 01:26 PM
{Tell me exactly who believe that adultery is fun?}

Exactly the one's who engage in it?

Are you speaking from experience? Or do you know some adulterers who have told you?

noguru
January 28th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Who will answer? Who will answer?

All of us must answer.

Romans 3
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?

7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17And the way of peace have they not known:

18There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Lighthouse
January 29th, 2006, 06:15 PM
Originally the defintion of sodomy was sex other than the missionary position, even between husband and wife.
But that is not the currently held view.


Are you saying that we cannot let people have free will, and that they must all live by our rules?
Not at all. People should still have a choice, but we would be a better society if everyone lived by God's standard, would it not?


Do you believe this country should be a theocracy, with laws based strictly on the morality of the Bible?
Actually, yeah.:Shimei:


I don't know if you noticed but I labeled my political view as "more right than left". You have labeled yours "right wing zealot". I guess you and I differ on some of these issues. I can't remember anywhere in the NT where Jesus said to force our views on those who weren't interested. He didn't even try to overthrow the Roman governent that was certainly a very secular governemt. In fact what he said was "Render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaser's, but render unto God that which is God's". He only taught those who sought his guidance. He realized that you cannot teach those who do not seek your guidance. And that doing so would criple his cause. He was more like a conservative Jew in this manner. Now Paul came along and created what we now know as the conservative Christian movement. But I think you're even taking further than Paul would have taken it.
First of all, I'm not interested in forcing my views on anyone. But I believe that God's ways are higher than our ways, and we'd all be better off if we followed Him. Murder is wrong, and should be punishable by death. Just the same with rape, incest, adultery, kidnapping, homosexuality, and perjury that would cause an innocent person to be put to death. And things not punishable by death that should still be illegal, and punishable by law, are fornication, stealing, and the like.

noguru
January 29th, 2006, 06:57 PM
But that is not the currently held view.

Agreed. But if we are going to have laws that are absolute shouldn't our definition of the crime also be absolute?



Not at all. People should still have a choice, but we would be a better society if everyone lived by God's standard, would it not?

I agree 100% with this. The only problem I see is that many of us have differing ideas about God's standard. Even amongst those of us who read the Bible regularly.

noguru
January 29th, 2006, 07:02 PM
First of all, I'm not interested in forcing my views on anyone. But I believe that God's ways are higher than our ways, and we'd all be better off if we followed Him. Murder is wrong, and should be punishable by death. Just the same with rape, incest, adultery, kidnapping, homosexuality, and perjury that would cause an innocent person to be put to death. And things not punishable by death that should still be illegal, and punishable by law, are fornication, stealing, and the like.

I agree that God's ways are higher than our ways. But you seem to believe that everything you believe about God's ways is accurate. So if you are going to make this country a theocracy, which political mindset do you believe should be running the government? Those like you who want to make the death penalty the punishment for adultery, or those who chose Jesus way. "Let whoever among you that is free of sin, cast the first stone."

Lighthouse
January 29th, 2006, 08:12 PM
Agreed. But if we are going to have laws that are absolute shouldn't our definition of the crime also be absolute?
I believe we need to be absolute, yes. That is why I believe that homosexuality should be illegal, but that oral sex should not be.



I agree 100% with this. The only problem I see is that many of us have differing ideas about God's standard. Even amongst those of us who read the Bible regularly.
But God knows what his standard is though, doesn't He?

Lighthouse
January 29th, 2006, 08:18 PM
I agree that God's ways are higher than our ways. But you seem to believe that everything you believe about God's ways is accurate. So if you are going to make this country a theocracy, which political mindset do you believe should be running the government? Those like you who want to make the death penalty the punishment for adultery, or those who chose Jesus way. "Let whoever among you that is free of sin, cast the first stone."
First of all, I do not believe that I am correct about everything I believe about God. And as far as I want to live in a theocracy, I believe there are only four basic laws that should be in our criminal code: Do not murder, do not commit sexual immorality, do not commit perjury, and do not steal.

noguru
January 30th, 2006, 03:44 AM
I believe we need to be absolute, yes. That is why I believe that homosexuality should be illegal, but that oral sex should not be.

But as Christians we did not always have that same definition of sodomy. Once the prevailing idea was that anything other than missionary intercourse was considered sodomy. And "sodomy", however it was defined, was always considered sexually immoral.



But God knows what his standard is though, doesn't He?

Yes he does. But our understanding of that standard throughout history and amongst different people has not and is not always the same.



First of all, I do not believe that I am correct about everything I believe about God. And as far as I want to live in a theocracy, I believe there are only four basic laws that should be in our criminal code: Do not murder, do not commit sexual immorality, do not commit perjury, and do not steal.

Well it is good to see that you do not think you have the market cornered on deciphering God's standard. And I agree with you about the four basic laws that should be in the criminal code. Let's take a look at these.

Deciding whether something is murder, perjury or theft is pretty cut and dry. I think it would be quite a waste of taxpayers money and time to police the bedroom of adults throughout this country. And as I have demonstrated our understanding what is considered sexually immoral has not remained constant in regard to consentual sex between two adults. However, when the sex is not between two consenting adults in the privacy of the bedroom, it is really quite clear (throughout history and with most people) that it should be addressed by the legal system.