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Sozo
December 14th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?

Squeaky 2.0
December 14th, 2005, 02:08 PM
you said
Is God free to do evil?

i said
He is Master of the universe.

you said
Can He do evil?

i said
Perhaps he can do that. How difficult is it?

allsmiles
December 14th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?

i would say that your god has done evil, according to the "good" book of course, and i would also say that within the confines of open theism he is definitely capable of doing evil. in fact, if half of what open theism entails is true, then i would assert that it's a distinct possibility that he has completely turned his back on his creation and now hates us and wishes he never wanted us.

thank the gods none of that poppy **** is true though:)

what a relief.

Delmar
December 14th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Is God free to do evil? yes


Can He do evil? He, because of his righteous character, demands better of himself!

God_Is_Truth
December 14th, 2005, 03:04 PM
Is God free to do evil?

Yes. If He decided to do something evil, no one could stop Him.



Can He do evil?

Yes, though He would cease to be a good God the moment He did it.

allsmiles
December 14th, 2005, 03:09 PM
and what of the possibility that he has changed? that perhaps he's gotten bitter and frustrated over time? what if he no longer loves you and holds us all in contempt? 2000 years is a long time to be waiting, and wouldn't you say that this theory would explain all of the suffering that is in the world? it requires no theology and no guide book, just a little adventerous speculation:)

Sozo
December 14th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Any biblical evidence, guys?

Squeaky 2.0
December 14th, 2005, 03:17 PM
you said
Any biblical evidence, guys?

i said
No I don't think there are any.

Mr. 5020
December 14th, 2005, 03:17 PM
I don't think He can do evil. I know He cannot lie, so apparently there are restrictions on what God can do.

Sozo
December 14th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I don't think He can do evil. I know He cannot lie, so apparently there are restrictions on what God can do.

I agree with you.

However, this appears to be a teaching of Open Theism that God can do evil.

I'd like to know why they think that

Mr. 5020
December 14th, 2005, 03:23 PM
I agree with you.

However, this appears to be a teaching of Open Theism that God can do evil.

I'd like to know why they think that:thumb:

Didn't know there was a target audience. Is Squeaky 2.0 helping? :D

Sozo
December 14th, 2005, 03:27 PM
:thumb:

Didn't know there was a target audience.

Didn't mean to make it sound like that, sorry, and thanks for your input. :up:
Is Squeaky 2.0 helping? :D Oh sure, he and allsmiles are just busting with wisdom.

Mr. 5020
December 14th, 2005, 03:31 PM
Oh sure, he and allsmiles are just busting with wisdom.Well, he is better than the original Squeaky. :chuckle:

Delmar
December 14th, 2005, 03:32 PM
However, this appears to be a teaching of Open Theism that God can do evil.

Where are you getting that?

allsmiles
December 14th, 2005, 03:33 PM
i'm not trying to sound intelligent Sozo, i'm just asking questions.

Squeaky 2.0
December 14th, 2005, 03:38 PM
you said
Where are you getting that?

i said
I am in here, how about you.

Sozo
December 14th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Where are you getting that?

Does OT not believe that?

Do you know anyone else that believes that?

God_Is_Truth
December 14th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Any biblical evidence, guys?


God can do whatever he pleases


Jeremiah 32:17
' Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,

2 Chronicles 20:6
and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.


God only does those things which are good, evidenced by his ways and deeds


Deuteronomy 32:4
" The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice,Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 65:5
By awesome deeds You answer us in righteousness, O God of our salvation,You who are the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea;

Daniel 9:14
"Therefore the LORD has kept the calamity in store and brought it on us; for the LORD our God is righteous with respect to all His deeds which He has done, but we have not obeyed His voice.


God's character is consistent with His deeds

James 1
17Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.


Thus, God can do all things, but chooses to do only good, evidenced through his deeds (not to mention that anything one person of the trinity does is witnessed by the other two persons, thus holding one another eternally accountable).

Sozo, do you believe that it is impossible for God to do evil? If so, on what basis is it impossible?

Delmar
December 14th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Does OT not believe that?

Do you know anyone else that believes that?
I do not no any open theist who believes that God does evil or will do evil. The abstract question of whether he could do evil if he wanted to is totally irrelevant because he will never want to do evil.

Lighthouse
December 15th, 2005, 12:15 AM
I think that God, being omnipotent, has the ability to never do evil, whereas we do not have that ability. And I am an open theist.

Fensanity
December 15th, 2005, 01:08 AM
I think God can do anything except what limits He has placed apon Himself by His nature and His word.

godrulz
December 15th, 2005, 02:40 AM
God's character and choices preclude Him from doing evil. GIT says He would cease to be God if He did. This is half true. He would not cease to be the uncreated Creator God by nature, but He would cease to be holy and loving. We would now have a malevolent Deity.

This is similar to the theological debate about the impeccability of Christ. Could Jesus, the God-Man sin?

It is a moot point since God/Jesus never did sin and will never sin. Even if they theoretically could sin (my leaning), they would not sin.

Sozo
December 15th, 2005, 09:16 AM
Could Jesus, the God-Man sin?

It is a moot point since God/Jesus never did sin and will never sin. Even if they theoretically could sin (my leaning), they would not sin.

The bible is clear...

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

God cannot even be tempted with evil.

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit"

Is God good?

"In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie..."

"Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"

The bible says that God cannot lie, it is impossible. It has nothing to do with His choice.

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

The bible says that Jesus could not sin. Unless you think that Jesus was not born of God.

godrulz
December 15th, 2005, 09:23 AM
The I John context is about believers, not Jesus.

Sozo
December 15th, 2005, 09:33 AM
The I John context is about believers, not Jesus.

So then, you claim that believers cannot sin, but Jesus can?

Whatever you say, bibleman!

:kookoo:

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him."

godrulz
December 15th, 2005, 10:53 AM
So then, you claim that believers cannot sin, but Jesus can?

Whatever you say, bibleman!

:kookoo:

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him."


Huh? Believers can sin, but the sinless Christ did not and will not sin.

What is your reference and which translation? I John? I cannot find your verse. The closest I can find does not imply that Jesus is born of God.

Ch./verse?

While you are at it, refresh your memory on the significance of the present tense in Greek.

Do I have to be a subscriber to get a bold bottom line like you have? Thx for the free advertising.

SOZO IS A PAIN IN MY NECK

or SOZO IS A BOZO

I have been challenging Chandler, a true false teacher, to renounce the WT to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ. Why don't you use your time and energy with those who are true heretics?

Sozo
December 15th, 2005, 11:27 AM
Huh? Believers can sin, but the sinless Christ did not and will not sin.

godrulz... Have you lost your mind?

Based on the following verse:

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

You said...
The I John context is about believers, not Jesus.

Then you say...
Believers can sin, but the sinless Christ did not and will not sin.

The bible says...

1 John 5:18

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him."

Are you claiming that the bible is in error?

Are you still claiming that Jesus could have sinned?

koban
December 15th, 2005, 11:30 AM
From the active board:

Does God have comprehensive...
Sozo




I thought this was a car insurance pitch!

Delmar
December 15th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Sozo
Where are you headed with this thread?

godrulz
December 15th, 2005, 11:41 AM
godrulz... Have you lost your mind?

Based on the following verse:

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

You said...

Then you say...

The bible says...

1 John 5:18

"We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him and the evil one does not touch him."

Are you claiming that the bible is in error?

Are you still claiming that Jesus could have sinned?

5:18 anyone born of God does not continue to sin (NIV captures the meaning of the present, continuous tense). This does not mean it is literally impossible to sin (Christians commit adultery, right?). It means that believers do not habitually, continually sin just as they did when they were unbelievers. We know we have eternal life in the Son. He keeps us from the evil one, even if we sin and continue to look to Him for salvation. Other contexts deal with the issue of Christians sinning and the possibility of falling away/apostasy. For your interpretation (based on Greek grammar), Jesus would have sinned, but He no longer continues to sin because He is born of God. Jesus never sinned.

Commentators suggest that the one born of God keeps himself safe (with God's power) and that it is NOT a reference to Christ (who is never called born of God).

Knight
December 15th, 2005, 11:42 AM
i would say that your god has done evil, according to the "good" book of course, and i would also say that within the confines of open theism he is definitely capable of doing evil. in fact, if half of what open theism entails is true, then i would assert that it's a distinct possibility that he has completely turned his back on his creation and now hates us and wishes he never wanted us.

thank the gods none of that poppy **** is true though:)

what a relief.This is the kind of input that we frown upon in the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum.

We set this forum aside to let those serious about Christianity discuss issues.

Sozo
December 15th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Sozo
Where are you headed with this thread?


As in all threads, first, we expose godrulz for being an idiot. :chuckle:

Second... I'm trying to find out why some people believe that God can do evil.

RobE
December 15th, 2005, 11:59 AM
God can(is capable) of anything since He's omnipotent. However, God's not capable(can't) since He's immutable. These seem to contradict each other unless your definition of immutability and omnipotence is correct.

Imrahil
December 15th, 2005, 01:58 PM
I don't think He can do evil. I know He cannot lie, so apparently there are restrictions on what God can do.
Why do you say He cannot lie?

Lighthouse
December 25th, 2005, 01:03 AM
Truthfully, I believe that God, being omnipotent, has the power to not do evil. Whereas we, as humans, are not capable of never doing evil. Sometimes we do evil, and that just how it is. But God is capable of never doing evil, because He is omnipotent.

godrulz
December 25th, 2005, 01:30 AM
Truthfully, I believe that God, being omnipotent, has the power to not do evil. Whereas we, as humans, are not capable of never doing evil. Sometimes we do evil, and that just how it is. But God is capable of never doing evil, because He is omnipotent.


Omnipotence is a metaphysical (being/existence) property. He is all-powerful in His creative abilities, etc. Righteousness vs evil are in the realm of morals, character, freedom. His moral attributes flow out of His attributes of personality (character, will, intellect, emotions). This involves His will and choices, not His essential nature (omnis + eternal/uncreated, triune Creator). His attributes of being combine with His attributes of personality resulting in His moral attributes (e.g. an omniscient being knows that love is the highest good of God and others, so His choices will always be perfect and righteous, not evil; His power is not brute force, but providential and responsive in His sovereignty). Whether one is uncreated spirit (God) or flesh and bones, it is not substance that determines vice or virtue, but volition and intellect.

Confusing metaphysics (essence/being/substance), morals (freedom, choices), and personality (will, intellect, emotions) blurs the categories.

The ability to not do evil does not come out of His ability to speak the universe out of nothing (metaphysics). It comes out of His ability to consistently act on truth and that which is right and good (morals/volition vs strength).

During the incarnation, Jesus' virtue did not come out of omnipotence (veiled). It came out of choice and dependence on the Father and Spirit. Demons are spirit beings as are angels. It is not their metaphysics (spirit) that determines their evil or lack of it; it is their rebellious or obedient choices that affect their standing and state. Continuous choices will form a nature/character/bondage, but it is the will, not the essence, that determines accountability.

Letsargue
December 25th, 2005, 10:20 AM
Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?


---OOOOHHH ME!!!! --- It's not evil when God sets things up to do them. First God makes a Law that will allow even himself to do anything. -- But since Christ, all the Laws has been written and Even God Has no more Laws to use, to do any more. -- If God did anything now, He would be breaking his own law which would be evil. But if he could write a new law that would allow him to do something, then that would be by law and not evil.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

godrulz
December 25th, 2005, 10:33 AM
---OOOOHHH ME!!!! --- It's not evil when God sets things up to do them. First God makes a Law that will allow even himself to do anything. -- But since Christ, all the Laws has been written and Even God Has no more Laws to use, to do any more. -- If God did anything now, He would be breaking his own law which would be evil. But if he could write a new law that would allow him to do something, then that would be by law and not evil.
*
-----------------Paul---
*


Huh? :dizzy:

God does not make arbitrary, binding laws for Himself. He is governed by His intelligence, character, and being. What He does is consistent with who He is, not just by Him making binding laws on Himself. He volitionally choses the highest good and what is wise and right, consistent with His wisdom and character. He is free to do what is right and best. Rex lex vs lex rex (King is Law vs Law is King) is a relevant study. Does a King make a Law because He has the power to do it...He could make an evil Law if He wanted to OR is there an absolute law of love and truth based on the King's integrity, nature, and character that He Himself will adhere to because it is the highest good and inherently right?

God is the most valuable, perfect, awesome being in the universe. His being is the basis for absolute truth and Divine Law, not just a whim of an omnipotent tyrant.

Letsargue
December 25th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Huh? Believers can sin, but the sinless Christ did not and will not sin.

What is your reference and which translation? I John? I cannot find your verse. The closest I can find does not imply that Jesus is born of God.

Ch./verse?

While you are at it, refresh your memory on the significance of the present tense in Greek.

Do I have to be a subscriber to get a bold bottom line like you have? Thx for the free advertising.

SOZO IS A PAIN IN MY NECK

or SOZO IS A BOZO

I have been challenging Chandler, a true false teacher, to renounce the WT to embrace the Lord Jesus Christ. Why don't you use your time and energy with those who are true heretics?


---Wrong again: godzulr;
---John 2:14 --“And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple”. – That rope scourge Christ made, he pulled down from the curtains of the temple, and there he defaced the temple himself.
---Matt.23:12,13,14,15,16. – (“Woe unto you”). That was the way to curse people back then, we would say, “To hell with you”, or “Go to hell”. – Woe unto you, means: “Great torment to you”. Christ taught, not to curse your brother, and lay hands suddenly upon no man. Christ scourged and cursed his brethren there, but it was not held to his charge. – 1 Peter 2:23 –“Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again”; -- He didn’t make it a habit to do that, it’s the life stile that is condemned not the single moment of anger.
*
------------Paul---
*

godrulz
December 25th, 2005, 12:45 PM
---Wrong again: godzulr;
---John 2:14 --“And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple”. – That rope scourge Christ made, he pulled down from the curtains of the temple, and there he defaced the temple himself.
---Matt.23:12,13,14,15,16. – (“Woe unto you”). That was the way to curse people back then, we would say, “To hell with you”, or “Go to hell”. – Woe unto you, means: “Great torment to you”. Christ taught, not to curse your brother, and lay hands suddenly upon no man. Christ scourged and cursed his brethren there, but it was not held to his charge. – 1 Peter 2:23 –“Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again”; -- He didn’t make it a habit to do that, it’s the life stile that is condemned not the single moment of anger.
*
------------Paul---
*

The text does not say that the cords were from the temple curtains. What is the basis for your speculation (it is not explicit in the passage).

Christ had the wisdom and authority to rebuke as He did. We can do so in His name, but should be careful not to attack Christians or others out of our misguided flesh.

Letsargue
December 25th, 2005, 05:25 PM
The text does not say that the cords were from the temple curtains. What is the basis for your speculation (it is not explicit in the passage).

Christ had the wisdom and authority to rebuke as He did. We can do so in His name, but should be careful not to attack Christians or others out of our misguided flesh.


---Christ was at the Tenple and the temple is hanging with cords, you say he took the cords with him. What are the options and what is the greatest option, I say he took the cord down from the temple. ----- Christ had the anger also.
*
-----------------Paul---
*

godrulz
December 25th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Possible, but still speculative (like other ideas you have).

Sealeaf
January 15th, 2006, 11:08 AM
Nonsense said about God, remains nonsense.
God is limited by His intensions. Therefore since He does not intend evil he does not do evil.

koban
January 15th, 2006, 11:25 AM
If God did anything now, He would be breaking his own law which would be evil.

OK so far


But if he could write a new law that would allow him to do something, then that would be by law and not evil.

But if He wrote a new law, he would be doing something, and as per your statement above, that would be evil.






Apparently, your theology doesn't allow God to do anything. :freak:




*
-----------------Paul---
*

minuteman
January 23rd, 2006, 10:37 PM
The bible is clear...

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man"

God cannot even be tempted with evil.

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit"

Is God good?

"In the same way God, desiring even more to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose, interposed with an oath, in order that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie..."

"Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago"

The bible says that God cannot lie, it is impossible. It has nothing to do with His choice.

"No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God".

The bible says that Jesus could not sin. Unless you think that Jesus was not born of God.


Sozo, the word CANNOT does not always mean inability. In fact, it usually doesn't. For example, I might tell my friend that I CANNOT come for dinner tonight because I caught the flu. I don't mean that I don't have the physical ability to come, but that I have made the decision not to for a particular reason. Lookup the word CANNOT in a concordance and you will see this.

We, of course, know that God CAN be tempted and WAS tempted specifically in the wilderness. In fact the Bible says that Jesus was tempted, just like mankind, in all points yet without sin. When the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted, it means that God refuses to succumb to temptation.

Anywhere the Bible declares God as righteous and good, it assumes His freedom to choose otherwise. That is the nature of moral character. Morality has to do with choices not fixed characteristics of a persons nature. The words goodness and righteousness lose any meaning if they refer to the one and only thing that God can do.

elohiym
January 23rd, 2006, 11:51 PM
Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

It's a good question. Here is God's answer:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

We know that God is good, not evil; and we know that God cannot sin. Still, God claims that He creates evil.

So how can God create evil, but not be evil or sin? I think that is a good follow up question.

godrulz
January 24th, 2006, 12:59 AM
Sozo, the word CANNOT does not always mean inability. In fact, it usually doesn't. For example, I might tell my friend that I CANNOT come for dinner tonight because I caught the flu. I don't mean that I don't have the physical ability to come, but that I have made the decision not to for a particular reason. Lookup the word CANNOT in a concordance and you will see this.

We, of course, know that God CAN be tempted and WAS tempted specifically in the wilderness. In fact the Bible says that Jesus was tempted, just like mankind, in all points yet without sin. When the scriptures say that God cannot be tempted, it means that God refuses to succumb to temptation.

Anywhere the Bible declares God as righteous and good, it assumes His freedom to choose otherwise. That is the nature of moral character. Morality has to do with choices not fixed characteristics of a persons nature. The words goodness and righteousness lose any meaning if they refer to the one and only thing that God can do.

Does this not also apply to man? I think sozo thinks a Christian cannot sin or give in to temptation. I also do not think we can divorce righteousness from obedient choices in His power based on verses that link the two.

godrulz
January 24th, 2006, 01:01 AM
Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

It's a good question. Here is God's answer:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

We know that God is good, not evil; and we know that God cannot sin. Still, God claims that He creates evil.

So how can God create evil, but not be evil or sin? I think that is a good follow up question.


Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.

Letsargue
January 24th, 2006, 04:39 AM
I do not no any open theist who believes that God does evil or will do evil. The abstract question of whether he could do evil if he wanted to is totally irrelevant because he will never want to do evil.



---Again you don’t know what you’re talking about. --- Evil is contrary to God’s will. – Therefore that CANNOT exist with God, but us. – To question God, is against his will, therefore you do. -- If it is the will of God to Kill someone for touching the Arc, or using strange fire to light a fire, - that’s his will; and not evil. -- If God ((COULD)) go against his own will, it would be EVIL for him to kill a murderer.
*
----------------Paul---
*

Frank Ernest
January 24th, 2006, 04:49 AM
Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.:thumb:

elohiym
January 24th, 2006, 10:41 AM
Check other better translations and the context. This is not talking about moral evil, but natural 'evil' or disasters sent in righteous judgment.God states in context, and properly translated, "I create evil." He doesn't say anything about "moral evil" verses what you call "natural evil."

Instead of claiming it is not properly translated in context, why not explain yourself and offer what you think is a better translation and explain the context? Don't forget to explain the difference between "moral evil" and "natural evil."

God is not evil, and cannot sin, but he creates all evil that exists, as surely as he created the devil. Is there another creator, one that "creates" evil?

Please show me any scripture that supports what you're saying, as I have already offered two scriptures that support my position. One scripture is unambiguous: "I create evil."

godrulz
January 24th, 2006, 01:12 PM
God states in context, and properly translated, "I create evil." He doesn't say anything about "moral evil" verses what you call "natural evil."

Instead of claiming it is not properly translated in context, why not explain yourself and offer what you think is a better translation and explain the context? Don't forget to explain the difference between "moral evil" and "natural evil."

God is not evil, and cannot sin, but he creates all evil that exists, as surely as he created the devil. Is there another creator, one that "creates" evil?

Please show me any scripture that supports what you're saying, as I have already offered two scriptures that support my position. One scripture is unambiguous: "I create evil."


God created Lucifer. He did not create the devil. Lucifer became the devil, contrary to God's will and intentions, through volitional pride and misuse of his free will. God is not culpable for this. Likewise, God created creation 'very good'. Man, not God, blew it through the Fall, contrary to His desires, intentions, or will.

Do not impugn God's holy, righteous character with heinous, moral evil.

Just because insurance agencies call natural disasters 'acts of God' does not mean they all are. God, in Jesus, is fundamentally opposed to evil! How can you say that He is the ultimate source or cause of it? Jesus exposed and resisted evil. Jesus is God. He did not affirm it as God's will. Boyd and others have exegeted well to show that these Calvinistic proof texts refer to righteous judgment through disasters, not Hitler's killing Jews. Many translations (clearer than KJV) capture the correct meaning in context.

mtims540
January 24th, 2006, 03:29 PM
Any biblical evidence, guys?

As I read over these Scriptures, I think I see a difference between sin or missing the mark and evil or calamity. God is not guilty of missing the mark when He brings calamity, He is perfect in His use of it.

Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jdg 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:

1Sa 16:15,16, 23 and 18:10 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

Let our lord now command thy servants, [which are] before thee, to seek out a man, [who is] a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.

And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand.

1Ki 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I [am] bringing [such] evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2Ch 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

Neh 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jer 16:10 And it shall come to pass, when thou shalt shew this people all these words, and they shall say unto thee, Wherefore hath the LORD pronounced all this great evil against us? or what [is] our iniquity? or what [is] our sin that we have committed against the LORD our God?

Jer 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jer 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Jer 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them: because I have spoken unto them, but they have not heard; and I have called unto them, but they have not answered.

Jer 39:16 Go and speak to Ebedmelech the Ethiopian, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring my words upon this city for evil, and not for good; and they shall be [accomplished] in that day before thee.

Jer 40:2 And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place.

Jer 42:6 Whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil, we will obey the voice of the LORD our God, to whom we send thee; that it may be well with us, when we obey the voice of the LORD our God.

Jer 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah; and, behold, this day they [are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

Jer 44:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah.

Ezekiel - Chapter 7

Dan 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God [is] righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Joel - Chapter 2

Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

mtims540
January 24th, 2006, 03:47 PM
God created Lucifer. He did not create the devil. Lucifer became the devil, contrary to God's will and intentions, through volitional pride and misuse of his free will. God is not culpable for this.

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:

freelight
January 24th, 2006, 03:52 PM
First, think to even begin delving into that question, you would have to define precisely what good and evil are.



Good and evil are relative descriptions assinged by a judge in a dualistic world-perception. They are comparitive judgments determined by the observer.




Second, you would have to consider that is God becauses his actions adhere to some standard of good which exists apart from Himself, or rather is God in Himself the very definition of good and therefore any action He takes good, because He Himself defines that which is good.




God would have to be the Sole Source and Origin of the good that IS for all that exists: laws, principles, standards originate in and operate from within the Being of God. God IS. In His Is-ness....This Absolute State of divine Being is neither good or bad(apart from our own nominations, judgments)....but includes All That Is....as well as transcends all dualities, relativities that appear in perception. Relationally....we worship God as Ultimate Good....although the phenomena of evil appears in this finite world of dualistic-comparisons. Gods ultimacy as Love and divine Good however triumphs as the infinite end and intention of His creations.



Originally Posted by Sozo

Is God free to do evil?

Can He do evil?


Can Love do evil? Is Love capable of evil? What appears as 'evil' to our perception-judgments are our own referentials. In a world where free will liberties are allowed(at any measure) and other anomolies associated with an imperfect creation exists...there is bound to be what some would call 'evil'(by relative perception) - we may speculate at this comparitive judgment as well as accept the mystery of evil or iniquity native to our own mortal-predicament. But if God is wholly 'good' then evil cannot exist in Him but if we keep assigning God as 'good' as compared to evil....we will always seem to have 'evil' to contend with/explain.....instead of seeing God as above any dualities as the Sole non-dual Being that He IS as the Absolute, the All, the One, the Totality. - this State of 'God' is undifferentiated, unconditional, undivided, whole, only. There is only God as the substrate of Existence Itself - this Reality is beyond explanation, articulation or words. What IS is....and all things are unfolding following the course of their own being/nature at any given time.

Love is only capable of Love because it is its own essence and cannot be what it is not. - all its actions would be true to its nature - which in this case speaking of Deity would be Absolute. It is only appearnce/value-judgment/opinion/perception that God would also create evil or that humans by virtue of free will are able to create evil. If God is not capable of doing evil because we have assumed his absolute goodness...then where does evil come from and why does it appear to exist? (if God is only capable of divine goodness and Love...then all that is not of God...is not divine, real, substancial or eternal - hence why some schools see evil as illusory - some may object in that all around they see evil and suffering....however if we stay true to God as the Only Presence and Power of Reality Existing...then evil doesnt really have any divine or real existence...even if some souls are apparently suffering from evil - further research allows us to delve deeper into the metaphysics and ontology of evil.)

As I surrender to the ONE.....I am wholly confident and sheltered in divine Love and goodness. Any evil that appears is only an apearrance/deviation/imperfection/anomoly somehow allowed in the relative world of perception....however still the Ultimacy of divine Love and goodness remains.






paul

minuteman
January 24th, 2006, 04:36 PM
So, I guess freelight is a pantheist?

freelight
January 24th, 2006, 08:56 PM
So, I guess freelight is a pantheist?


Hi mm,

In certain dimensions I hold to a pan-theo-cosmology - all really depends on our understanding/knowledge/perception of 'God' first...for God is the First and Original Intelligence, the primordial Ground of Being, the substrate of Existence Itself. God is the Sole Context of All That Is.....for nothing exists outside of the All. (therefore 'good' and 'evil' are only relative perceptions within the Whole).

Leaning more towards a traditional purivew....I probably subscribe to a more pan-en-theist view. Pan-en-theism being a view allowing a more recognized distinction between Creator and creation - all things existing 'in'(en) God as opposed to a more strict view of God being the Universe or everything being God.(pure pantheism). Also lets realize there are views within these schools which share slightly differing inflections - whenever a school holds some form of omni-hood of God...there are bound to be dimensional variations per school. 'All' is all-encompassing!

Where theology lacks concerning the question and mystery of 'evil'...philosophy, metaphysics, psychology and science may assist towards forming a more wholistic theory.(for an integrative View). - all schools of knowledge must be applied besides the light of revelation. So our investigation into evil itself is essential here. A beginning question to open up serious discussion might be...."What is evil"? Then we can go from there.




paul

godrulz
January 25th, 2006, 01:58 AM
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:

Not the absolute beginning when God created him as a perfect, lofty angel. From the beginning of creation or ages ago when he has been the deceiver. He may have falled soon after he was created. It is an expression or idiom, not a wooden literalism. Jesus was referring to Satan (who has been such from the beginning of man's history), not to Lucifer in his original state as an archangel of God. Other verses show that he has not always been the devil, but because such. The same is true of demons. They were once good angels who became evil following in Satan's footsteps. God did not create demons. They because such when they rebelled against great light.

Frank Ernest
January 25th, 2006, 05:22 AM
Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Murderer from the beginning. That would be Cain. Jesus was identifying those He was speaking to as descendants of Cain.


1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:9-10 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


mtims540: In what light am I to understand these Scriptures? :devil:
See above.

mtims540
January 25th, 2006, 05:30 AM
Other verses show that he has not always been the devil, but because such. The same is true of demons. They were once good angels who became evil following in Satan's footsteps. God did not create demons. They because such when they rebelled against great light.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Isa 14:11-14 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

. . . He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him . . .
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

. . . he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him . . .
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

"Moreover the word of the LORD came to me: Mortal, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from among the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever" (Ezekiel 28:11-19, NIV).

mtims540
January 25th, 2006, 05:31 AM
Eze 28:15,16 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub . . .

mtims540
January 25th, 2006, 05:38 AM
Murderer from the beginning. That would be Cain. Jesus was identifying those He was speaking to as descendants of Cain.

1 John 3:9-10 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

See above.

Thank you, that seems most likely to be the case . . . :dog:

However, I have some other thoughts on this issue I would like to air out . . . Later :hammer: