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webby
September 20th, 2001, 03:10 PM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

Lucky
February 1st, 2006, 12:39 PM
Rumor has it "nowhere on TOL will you find how to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior", so I thought I would give this Front Page Report a bump.

Knight
February 1st, 2006, 12:42 PM
Rumor has it "nowhere on TOL will you find how to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior", so I thought I would give this Front Page Report a bump.Well, you know what they say about rumors. :)

Lighthouse
February 2nd, 2006, 07:46 PM
I tried to respond to taoist about that, but for some reason I haven't been able to post on CF. Oh well.

PKevman
August 23rd, 2007, 07:57 AM
Praise the Lord for His wonderful gift of salvation.

BUMP!

Nick M
October 23rd, 2007, 12:26 PM
I believe Jesus is who says he is, and that God raised him from the dead, for my salvation.

I accept, without any qualifiers. Thank you Jesus.

chatmaggot
April 12th, 2008, 11:02 AM
Goooooo Jesus!

eph39
December 24th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Well, you know what they say about rumors. :)

That they cause us to drink RUM and smite one another with ORS [oars? no?]

That they Really Upset Mood Of Registered [and] Staff?

That they...RRR...UM...Overthrow Relational Stability?

That...they...

okay I'm done.

Yes, I'm bored. Bored bored bored b

eph39
December 24th, 2008, 04:59 PM
PS Thx for posting the Gospel...truly can't find it on some boards.

chatmaggot
January 16th, 2009, 02:43 PM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

This is the REAL message of change America and the world needs!

byass
May 23rd, 2009, 10:03 PM
Amen brother
I rejoice in the fact that God the Father chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world to be his adopted son through Jesus!
I am so glad that my choice of Jesus is based on the fact that the Father first chose me in Christ!! I rejoice that all this was worked out and still is being worked out in the power and life of the Spirit!!!
This is my testimony when anyone speaks of choosing salvation.
God bless you.

vegascowboy
March 20th, 2011, 04:33 PM
Time for a friendly BUMP on this thread.

Praise God and His goodness!

Sherman
March 21st, 2011, 09:49 AM
Excellent Post. Thanks for bumping.

lioncub
August 6th, 2011, 03:59 AM
Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9 was written to the saved not the unsaved, making this scripture irrelevant to an unbeliever. Show me any example in scripture where an unbeliever made such a confession and was saved in doing so. Your teaching is false.

Nick M
August 8th, 2011, 08:01 PM
Romans 10:9 was written to the saved not the unsaved

Then why did Paul tell them they will be saved?

Show me any example in scripture where an unbeliever made such a confession and was saved in doing so[/QUOTE]

Didn't he just do that? Salvation during the dispensation of grace consists of hearing the gospel, and believing.

Psalmist
August 9th, 2011, 04:23 AM
This needed to be bumped again...
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

firon
September 17th, 2011, 12:55 PM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

"It is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows mercy." You are confusing God's determining the resurrection of God's elect from His work of salvation with the reaction of His people to the blessing God has bestowed upon them. Read Ephesians chapter two.

firon
October 28th, 2011, 01:33 PM
Question for you, Nick: Who accuses believers to God?

Lazy afternoon
November 4th, 2011, 03:42 PM
The second part --

Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

LA.

waterbear
November 4th, 2011, 10:51 PM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

Every "Christian" who has swallowed the swindle of "God's Gift" should go immediately to their nearest dictionary and look up the meaning of the word, "gift".

That Pauline false teaching about accepting "God's gift of eternal life" is not about a gift at all, but a contract. If you all had read your dictionaries as well as you follow Paul Simon says, you'd know that a gift is not a gift when it comes with strings attached. That "gift" of eternal life has big strings attached so it's no gift at all but as I say, a contract: you do this, you get that. You don't do this, you get punished. Some "gift". This is the worst sort of coercion to get people to believe in God by scare tactics and it's pathetic for those of us who have formed a spiritual bond with God and the Spirit of Christ which is one of Family whereas yours is one of slave to a harsh Master. Read what Jesus says about that slave relationship in John's Gospel sometime..

Tambora
November 5th, 2011, 12:06 AM
Galatians 4:7 KJV
(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Lighthouse
November 6th, 2011, 03:28 AM
Every "Christian" who has swallowed the swindle of "God's Gift" should go immediately to their nearest dictionary and look up the meaning of the word, "gift".

That Pauline false teaching about accepting "God's gift of eternal life" is not about a gift at all, but a contract. If you all had read your dictionaries as well as you follow Paul Simon says, you'd know that a gift is not a gift when it comes with strings attached. That "gift" of eternal life has big strings attached so it's no gift at all but as I say, a contract: you do this, you get that. You don't do this, you get punished. Some "gift". This is the worst sort of coercion to get people to believe in God by scare tactics and it's pathetic for those of us who have formed a spiritual bond with God and the Spirit of Christ which is one of Family whereas yours is one of slave to a harsh Master. Read what Jesus says about that slave relationship in John's Gospel sometime..
So, what is it that Paul states we must do to receive the "gift"?

Zeke
December 4th, 2011, 11:24 AM
"It is not of him that willeth nor of him that runneth, but of God who shows mercy." You are confusing God's determining the resurrection of God's elect from His work of salvation with the reaction of His people to the blessing God has bestowed upon them. Read Ephesians chapter two.

They have placed mans limited freewill that was in bondage to sin, in the same arena as Gods soveriegn will, and his ultimate plan for all men.

Its still self righteous religion because you some how had the ability to go to God and except the free offer of salvation, but the scripture deputes this myth, God is the potter and man is the lump of clay without the will to seek after the Spirit, until God the potter makes it into the vessel of "His choice". Romans 9-11 explains it quite well but the christian religion doesn't what to teach that glorious truth that God will have mery on all, even those He blinded Romans 11:30-33.


Eternal hell is a pagan myth and won't be found in the early english translations. But these lucky ones will say God is Love and wouldn't override someones freewill even if it was to save them! who needs a friend like that? if you had a loved one who was self destructing and you could prevent it you would, even if it was against their will, don't kid me with your God won't bs. Father they just won't let me save them, oh well son you tried, some sins must have fell out of the bag and escaped among the trees of the garden, where are you sin?

Sorry greiving mother your rotten son is lost forever and Jesus didn't pay for all sin, and some death was victorious, his hands are tied and some things are not possible with God, and Jesus didn't overcome adams transgression for all so sorry, next second pew from the left, get the song book out and lets sing amazing grace for some lucky ones of Gods cosmic lottery.



Grace, Zeke.

tudorturtl
December 15th, 2011, 01:49 PM
Rumor has it "nowhere on TOL will you find how to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior", so I thought I would give this Front Page Report a bump.

seek the truth, and the truth will set you free. maybe, just maybe you will find him in the book of books.

Christ's Word
January 3rd, 2012, 11:24 PM
I believe any thorough discussion of the plan of Salvation should include some detail on the difference between justification, sanctification, and Salvation should it not?

Gurucam
January 5th, 2012, 07:07 AM
Rumor has it "nowhere on TOL will you find how to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior", so I thought I would give this Front Page Report a bump.




The most critical information is that one must know Jesus through His Spirit now, in real time in order to be saved and delivered.

The spoken and written words of Jesus counts for nothing at this time, except to introduce the idea that one must seek Jesus, now in real time, in His Spirit and be led into our works by His Spirit, now in real time.

It is Paul (not any of the disciples) who actually embrace Jesus in His Spirit (after Jesus physically left those precincts) and came to know Truth which saved and deliver one.

Paul had the actual experience of communing with Jesus, in the correct way, i.e. through His Spirit, so as to get Truth and be led by Truth.

This made Paul a Christian, an authentic one.

There is no evidence in the KJV N.T. that any of the disciples had achieved this actualization, of actually becoming Christians, although it is recorded there that they were called Christians.

There is clear evidence that Paul had achieve this actualization and become Christian.

Therefore Paul can seek to convey how this is achieved and done.

This is why Paul stand out. He was the first person to become an authentic Christian from among those people.

How did he do it?

He was led by Jesus who is the Truth, the way and the life.

How was he led by Jesus? He was led by Jesus by discerning precisely what Jesus wanted him to know, pray for, say and do, intuitively and directly from the Spirit of Jesus within his own heart or spirit. Then he simply obey unconditionally, even if he had to transgress the law.

There is no path to righteousness with God through the physically spoken and physically read words from Jesus or any one else.

The path to God's righteousness is only though the Spirit of Jesus which God sent into the hearts of those under the law so that they might (i.e. have an opportunity to) become adopted children of God. One has to pick up this offer which is a gift from God. This is how it is done:

One under the law has to awaken to his own spirit or heart (become born again). Then he has to search his heart or spirit so as to come into communion with the Spirit of Jesus within his own heart or spirit. Then one must discern in real time, all the time, precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to know, pray for, say and do. Then one must be led into all of one's work in real time, all the time, by unconditionally obeying (even if one has to transgress the law) precisely what this Spirit has in mind for one to know, pray for, say and do as discerned in real time, all the time, from within one's own heart or spirit.

This will put one under grace of God. This will make one a child of God, This will make one a Christian. This will earn one God given liberty and justification to transgress the Ten Commandments and not get sin. This will put one in absolute righteousness with God. By living in this manner one is glorified by God. When enough people on earth are living in this manner God's will comes to dominate on earth and God's kingdom of heaven descends to earth.

This is a summary of the whole message. Jesus suffered persecution, denial, torture and death among men, to awaken this message, in the hearts of men.

sangridad
January 14th, 2012, 07:05 PM
Why do any of these questions matter if y'all serve an omniscient god.
question:did jesus suffer worse than any other human on earth who was before or will come.

Psalmist
April 3rd, 2012, 07:49 PM
Bumped again.

The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

Psalmist
July 31st, 2012, 04:11 AM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

Tuesday bump

glorydaz
September 4th, 2012, 04:52 PM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

This post deserves all the bumps it's been given. :thumb:

Totton Linnet
November 9th, 2012, 07:50 PM
Every "Christian" who has swallowed the swindle of "God's Gift" should go immediately to their nearest dictionary and look up the meaning of the word, "gift".

That Pauline false teaching about accepting "God's gift of eternal life" is not about a gift at all, but a contract. If you all had read your dictionaries as well as you follow Paul Simon says, you'd know that a gift is not a gift when it comes with strings attached. That "gift" of eternal life has big strings attached so it's no gift at all but as I say, a contract: you do this, you get that. You don't do this, you get punished. Some "gift". This is the worst sort of coercion to get people to believe in God by scare tactics and it's pathetic for those of us who have formed a spiritual bond with God and the Spirit of Christ which is one of Family whereas yours is one of slave to a harsh Master. Read what Jesus says about that slave relationship in John's Gospel sometime..

We's sons and daughters, we rejoice to please our dear Father, we mourn to displease Him especially so as whether we please Him or displease Him our salvation is assured, such grace. Yes there is sin if it be wilful and persisted in that will bring punishment to us here in this life, it grieves the Fatherheart of God to have to discipline His children.

What father does not discipline his children? Even if God punish us we can take comfort that we are children and no bastards.
*

Jul Must
November 29th, 2012, 12:10 PM
Every one who knows of Gods Plan for Salvation knows that we are saved by Grace. Yet there is a wide diversity in the meaning of Saved by Grace.

I once saw a man who had figured out the whole thing. He had two lists. One list showed all that God has done, the other list showed everything that man had to do. God's list he called Grace. Man's list he called "Whatever.... insert your pet doctrine". The latest fad has been to call Man's List "relationship with Jesus" or "accepting His gift"

It reminds me of the song by the Who, "Won't Get Fooled Again". As the song comes to its end the music builds up to a great crescndo wherein the singer gives out a loud primeval scream, "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

As long as you think there is some list of human reaction required by man, no matter how small, you have mixed the Grace of God with human works.

Mixing Grace with "acceptance of the gift" will deter any further spiritual growth.

........Jul Must

servantofChrist
March 11th, 2013, 09:27 PM
Hello everyone,

Someone wrote:


"Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name."

The first occurrence of the gospel of Christ being preached is recorded in Acts 2. Every word that came forth from the mouth of Peter was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

At the end of the message, when the people there knew that they were guilty of sin and asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Did the Holy Spirit respond with the words above, starting with, "Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner."? No. Rather, the Spirit immediately answered their question with this command:

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." Acts 2:38

So there is a two-part command for everyone to obey: "Repent" and "be baptized."

servantofChrist
March 14th, 2013, 08:43 PM
Question:

If salvation by grace means that man's works have nothing to do with being saved, then what is the meaning of these words in Heb. 5:9 --- "And he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."

servantofChrist
March 14th, 2013, 09:06 PM
This post "malfunctioned" and ended up being duplicated.

servantofChrist
March 14th, 2013, 09:24 PM
Another Question:

If salvation is a gift that requires nothing on the part of man except to simply accept it, then why did Peter NOT say that to the Jews when he told them (in Acts 2) that they had put to death the Son of God, and then they asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Did he say, "All you have to do is just accept God's gift of salvation!"

No, he didn't. He immediately answered their question with a two-part command which, in the Greek, was given in the imperative mood -- meaning that obedience to those two commands ("repent and be baptized") was not optional; it was required of them.

Lighthouse
March 15th, 2013, 11:34 AM
Question:

If salvation by grace means that man's works have nothing to do with being saved, then what is the meaning of these words in Heb. 5:9 --- "And he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."


Another Question:

If salvation is a gift that requires nothing on the part of man except to simply accept it, then why did Peter NOT say that to the Jews when he told them (in Acts 2) that they had put to death the Son of God, and then they asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

Did he say, "All you have to do is just accept God's gift of salvation!"

No, he didn't. He immediately answered their question with a two-part command which, in the Greek, was given in the imperative mood -- meaning that obedience to those two commands ("repent and be baptized") was not optional; it was required of them.
Learn about dispensations.

intojoy
September 20th, 2013, 04:38 AM
Did you know that salvation is absolutely free? and that we do not have to do anything to get saved? Well what do the Scriptures teach? Lets see.

Well, John 3:16 is the most famous verse ever quoted in the world but I want you to see and hear what Jesus said just two verses earlier in verse 14 Jesus is pointing to a historical event to make a point about God's love.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; (John 3:14 ASV)

The event happened when God led the Jews out from Egypt. As was their habit the people grumbled and sinned while out in the wilderness on their way to the promised land. God responds by judging and disciplining them and on this occasion God sent serpents into their midst:

And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (Numbers 21:6 ASV)

The people of Israel then do their normal thing - they ask Moses to pray for them for forgiveness from The Lord. Moses prays and God forgives them:

And the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against thee; pray unto Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (Numbers 21:7 ASV)

God forgives the people but on one condition: Moses is to hold the serpent up for the congregation to gaze upon.

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." (Numbers 21:8 NASB)

It was not how guilty they felt or how long they stared at it in the heat of the desert sun, it was simply the look of faith.

And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:9 NASB)

If they were hard hearted and stiff necked they died in their sins.

Let's continue on now with Jesus's words:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15, 16 NASB)

God has lifted up our object of faith, Jesus the Messiah on a cross. We are to humble ourselves, coming to the realization that personal righteousness and holiness is outside of our capabilities, and look to our God and Father who said:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (John 3:15, 17 NASB)

If we refuse to believe that salvation is by grace alone thru faith alone in Messiah alone plus nothing then we are not really believing on Him that was sent and are under the following judgement:

so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:15, 18 NASB)

If you have followed the teachings of any other variation from what the bible clearly states concerning the content of faith for salvation then you have accepted the accusation of other religions teaching concerning not only these simple words of Christ but all of the other passages of scripture concerning God's free offer of imputed righteousness.

servantofChrist
September 25th, 2013, 03:01 AM
Show me where in the scriptures that it says "salvation is a gift that requires nothing on the part of man except to simply accept it."

intojoy
September 25th, 2013, 03:17 AM
Romans 3:24: being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

God bless u servant

servantofChrist
September 25th, 2013, 03:37 AM
Learn about dispensations.

I know about dispensations, I just don't know what your meaning is here. These words in question were written to Jews who were living under the New Covenant.

In verse 5, the writer cites words of prophecy in Psa. 2:7. Then in verse 6, he makes reference to Melchizedek, citing Psa. 110:4.

But he does that to lay the basis for what he is about to say to them next. Then he shifts their thinking from those O. T. passages and brings them forward, making reference to Christ.

It's perfectly clear that Heb. 5:9 is not pointing back to the old dispensation, but rather is speaking of the new ("Christian") one that those Jews were living in: because he speaks of Christ and the eternal salvation that He offers to "those who OBEY HIM."

Perhaps you're the one who needs to learn about "dispensations."

servantofChrist
September 25th, 2013, 04:34 AM
Romans 3:24: being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

God bless u servant

Well said, "intojoy," and God bless you. But this is a single statement of truth talking about God being the Originator and Provider of man's salvation. It doesn't mention man's response because it wasn't intended to. Yet, the Bible makes it clear that man's response to what God has provided, is required for his salvation: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21) Transpose the last part of the verse and it would read: "He who does the will of My Father in heaven shall enter the kingdom of heaven." Which implies that those who don't, won't!

From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible shows that redemption consists of two parts --- God's and man's. God is, of course, the Great Provider, providing what we could have never provided for ourselves: the forgiveness of our sins by Christ's blood shed on the cross, and our resurrection made possible by His resurrection from the dead.

But then God lays out His will for us in writing (the written New Testament) and says that only those who "do" that will shall enter the kingdom of heaven.

Have you ever noticed how much teaching and instruction there is in the New Testament? That's a LOT of will for us to "do"!

I guess I always wonder why, if no response on our part is required except just to accept what God has given, nothing more, then why are there hundreds of commands in the New Testament for us to obey (many of them given in the imperative mood) with regard to holy living and lifelong spiritual growth, and all of warnings and admonitions given to us, and writing to Christians about the horrors of Hell. Why all of that if no response on our part is required except to merely "accept" what God has given, and then it's a done deal?

I've gotta go for now. I'll check back when I can. Blessings to all of you : )

Lighthouse
September 25th, 2013, 10:46 AM
I know about dispensations, I just don't know what your meaning is here. These words in question were written to Jews who were living under the New Covenant.

In verse 5, the writer cites words of prophecy in Psa. 2:7. Then in verse 6, he makes reference to Melchizedek, citing Psa. 110:4.

But he does that to lay the basis for what he is about to say to them next. Then he shifts their thinking from those O. T. passages and brings them forward, making reference to Christ.

It's perfectly clear that Heb. 5:9 is not pointing back to the old dispensation, but rather is speaking of the new ("Christian") one that those Jews were living in: because he speaks of Christ and the eternal salvation that He offers to "those who OBEY HIM."

Perhaps you're the one who needs to learn about "dispensations."
We're not under the covenant spoken of in Hebrews; we're under the dispensation of the grace of God, which was preached by the apostle to the Gentiles: Paul. Hebrews was written to whom the title suggests.

intojoy
September 25th, 2013, 11:33 AM
Romans 5:20: And the law came in besides, that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace did abound more exceedingly.

Ephesians 2:5-8: even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus: for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

In every age God has given commandments to man and in every age man has broken them.

You're right about the multitude of commandments before you and I in this age, that's a correct observation. In James alone we are given scores of laws to obey. Loving my wife is a command of the law of Liberty - the law of Christ, I see this as non optional as something the Word teaches to be obeyed.

The fascinating thing about the Laws of David's day to me is the fact that God intentionally gave it to him with the purpose of revealing sin and increasing sin in David's life. It revealed and increased sin because it gave a holy standard and left David to try to gain righteousness by following that standard. David failed miserably. I used to think that it was the laws fault but it wasn't the law, it was the weakness of the flesh to operate under the law (Mosaic Law of 613 commands). David's attitude toward this curve ball of commandments? He said the law was his delight and he meditated in it day and night - what a guy!

I believe that David knew salvation was a gift of grace apart from keeping the law. He said so on several occasions. I believe I am saved by grace alone thru faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing. But my life is lived and judged on how I follow the teachings of the bible. I have been blessed and suffered discipline based on my decisions to be obedient to or disobedient to the Law of Christ which includes every New Testament commandment. Some of the Laws of Moses are repeated in the NT and I believe that the Noahic Covenant is still valid for us to follow.

Sorry for not keeping this short. I understand your passion and concern and desire to serve God, I see myself wanting to do the same but I believe that we who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit have been enabled by God to live sanctified and spiritually mature lived unlike David who not only was given a law that he could never keep but also prayed a prayer to never have the Spirit removed from him as it was from Saul. You and I cannot pray that prayer nor sing that beautiful song -" take not thy Holy Spirit from me" because He abides in us eternally.

Thus on the basis of the grace of God we obey and not that we obey to receive that grace, I believe that is the scriptural balance between works and grace that we work because we've already been saved.

servantofChrist
September 27th, 2013, 06:17 AM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

If you said to me, "I'm offering you a gift of $1,000 (wishful thinking!)," and I replied, "Thank you, I accept it." Before the money is actually put it into my hand, I have already accepted your offer when I decided to in my mind.

You said, "The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation."

But then you added to that these two things in Rom. 10:9 (1) confessing the LORD Jesus, and (2) believing with one's heart that God has raised him from the dead.

That goes beyond merely accepting God's gift of salvation. So which one is it?

What if an unbeliever, who has no intention of ever turning to Christ, is told that all he has to do is just "accept God's gift of salvation," he doesn't have to do anything else because the gift is free and unconditional. And he says, "Sure, I'll accept it, since I can keep on living my life the way I want to."

intojoy
September 29th, 2013, 10:40 AM
If you said to me, "I'm offering you a gift of $1,000 (wishful thinking!)," and I replied, "Thank you, I accept it." Before the money is actually put it into my hand, I have already accepted your offer when I decided to in my mind.

You said, "The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation."

But then you added to that these two things in Rom. 10:9 (1) confessing the LORD Jesus, and (2) believing with one's heart that God has raised him from the dead.

That goes beyond merely accepting God's gift of salvation. So which one is it?

What if an unbeliever, who has no intention of ever turning to Christ, is told that all he has to do is just "accept God's gift of salvation," he doesn't have to do anything else because the gift is free and unconditional. And he says, "Sure, I'll accept it, since I can keep on living my life the way I want to."

That's not possible because once a person is born again (freely) they are no longer their own but have been bought by Yeshua's blood and the bible tells us God disciplines those who are His even up to an early death.

That question or argument or scenario - up in smoke.

Ardima
October 31st, 2013, 07:13 AM
If you said to me, "I'm offering you a gift of $1,000 (wishful thinking!)," and I replied, "Thank you, I accept it." Before the money is actually put it into my hand, I have already accepted your offer when I decided to in my mind.

You said, "The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation."

But then you added to that these two things in Rom. 10:9 (1) confessing the LORD Jesus, and (2) believing with one's heart that God has raised him from the dead.

That goes beyond merely accepting God's gift of salvation. So which one is it?

What if an unbeliever, who has no intention of ever turning to Christ, is told that all he has to do is just "accept God's gift of salvation," he doesn't have to do anything else because the gift is free and unconditional. And he says, "Sure, I'll accept it, since I can keep on living my life the way I want to."

The thing you need to ask yourself is what is the Gift of God? Is it salvation? Is it eternal life? What was the Gift that God gave?

I'll give you a hint; it is found in John 3:16. The Gift of God is Jesus!!
We were given Jesus. He is the gift we need to receive. Jesus is our Salvation. Jesus is our Life. Jesus is our Righteousness...

How often we search for the thing and forget to search for the who. When we possess Jesus Christ we possess all of the things.

Posted from the TOL App!

cloud7divine
November 21st, 2013, 11:50 AM
"Trully I say unto you......."

JESUS CHRIST the son of GOD the heavenly father is the way, the truth, and the life, and only through him can we reach the heavenly father GOD almighty!

Agreed with all you stated and preached straight from the holy scriptures.

We must believe to have eternal life, we must love to know the father in heaven through his son lord JESUS, and we must be obedient in that love for that sums up the laws. For with out love we are nothing...be it given or bestowed by grace.

Theology is one thing, but understanding; which we must not lean on our own, but on the grace of GOD through his son JESUS; whom again I repeat Is the way, the truth and the life.

CatholicCrusader
November 21st, 2013, 11:56 AM
REPORT: God's plan of salvation (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3938#post3938)

Here is a great series of audio clips from the TV series "Our Father's Plan", all about God's plan of salvation: http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622 (http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=-306548622)

ac111971
March 20th, 2014, 04:51 AM
I think you have not read the full bible. There are many activities performed by Jesus that you have mentioned.

1) Did Jesus performed ablution before prayer?
2) How did he prostrate to worship God?
3) Was he circumcised?
4) Did he drinks Alcohol and Wine?
5) Did he eat pork?

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” [Luke 22:42].

Ben Masada
April 1st, 2014, 11:19 AM
I think you have not read the full bible. There are many activities performed by Jesus that you have mentioned.

[quote]1) Did Jesus performed ablution before prayer?

Yes, as the loyal Jew that Jesus was, he performed ablutions not only before prayers but mainly before meals.


2) How did he prostrate to worship God?

He prostrated on his knees and most the time he would stretch himself flat on the floor face down. The Jewish standing up posture to pray came about after Christianity in order to maintain distinction from Christians.


3) Was he circumcised?

Most definitely yes and on the 8th day of birth just like any other Jew. (Luke 2:21)


4) Did he drinks Alcohol and Wine?

Yes, he did. (Luke 7:34)


5) Did he eat pork?

Most definitely not as he was a loyal Jew, even a Rabbi.


“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” [Luke 22:42].

"Yours be done; not mine." (Mat. 26:39) What was Jesus' will? Not the same as that of God. Perhaps that's the reason why God did not answer his pray at the Gethsemane as it was against God's will. It means that Jesus was forced to walk the Via Dolorosa against his will. It also means that Christians are wrong to say that willingly, Jesus walked to the cross to die for all men. He didn't. He even couldn't because it would be a contradiction to Jeremiah 31:30 which says that no one can die for the sins of another.

intojoy
April 1st, 2014, 12:24 PM
Ben, the Torah and Mishna are not equal. One is God's word and one is man's word. Yeshua did not follow Mishnaic law

He broke it repeatedly

Ben Masada
April 1st, 2014, 12:45 PM
Ben, the Torah and Mishna are not equal. One is God's word and one is man's word. Yeshua did not follow Mishnaic law

He broke it repeatedly

Never mind about the Mishnah. The issue under discussion is not Jesus versus the Mishnah but Torah versus the NT. Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism and the NT is using a Jew to preach against Judaism. My post was to show what Jesus had undergone as a loyal Jew. In fact, the Hebrew Scriptures were the only Scriptures Jesus referred to as the Word of God as he never even dreamed that the NT would ever rise.

TimLutz
April 14th, 2014, 10:17 AM
I would like to point out his breaking man's law on the sabbath. And redirecting back to it's intent. A day of spiritual and physical refreshment. And if you compare ot to nt you will see the theology threads.

Posted from the TOL App!

intojoy
April 14th, 2014, 10:27 AM
Never mind about the Mishnah. The issue under discussion is not Jesus versus the Mishnah but Torah versus the NT. Jesus was a loyal Jew whose Faith was Judaism and the NT is using a Jew to preach against Judaism. My post was to show what Jesus had undergone as a loyal Jew. In fact, the Hebrew Scriptures were the only Scriptures Jesus referred to as the Word of God as he never even dreamed that the NT would ever rise.


On every occasion in the nt when the Pharisees challenged Yeshua they only challenged Him on breaking Mishnaic law. Only once do they attempt to accuse Him of breaking Mosaic law and when they failed they never tried it again.

That is significant.

Ben Masada
April 14th, 2014, 11:22 AM
On every occasion in the nt when the Pharisees challenged Yeshua they only challenged Him on breaking Mishnaic law. Only once do they attempt to accuse Him of breaking Mosaic law and when they failed they never tried it again.

That is significant.

Would you please quote where the Pharisees would challenge Jesus for breaking Mishnaic laws? I can't find those challenges.

TimLutz
April 14th, 2014, 07:00 PM
Pharisees and Scribes Challenge Jesus About Tradition (Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23)

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 15th, 2014, 01:25 PM
Pharisees and Scribes Challenge Jesus About Tradition (Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23)

Posted from the TOL App!

Both quotes above are anti-Jewish slanders by Hellenists former disciples of Paul with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. If those texts were true Jesus would be in contradiction with himself after his declaration that he had come to fulfill and to confirm all the Jewish laws down to the letter, even down to the dot of the letter of Matthew 5:17-19. Are you ready to deny that Jesus was telling the truth in Matthew 5:17-19? I didn't think so. Because of these difficulties, I have come to the conclusion that no more than 20% of the NT is worthy learning something from.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 02:05 PM
bm


Are you ready to deny that Jesus was telling the truth in Matthew 5:17-19?

Jesus told the Truth, but the jews did not believe Him ! They hated Him ! Do you deny that ?

TimLutz
April 15th, 2014, 02:17 PM
You got an bigotry problem?

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 15th, 2014, 03:13 PM
bm

Jesus told the Truth, but the jews did not believe Him ! They hated Him ! Do you deny that ?

I believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 is the description of a loyal Jew to Judaism. And I am sure every Jew believes the same. No Jew would ever hate him for that.

beloved57
April 15th, 2014, 05:38 PM
I believe that what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-19 is the description of a loyal Jew to Judaism. And I am sure every Jew believes the same. No Jew would ever hate him for that.

The jews hated God and Christ ! Also they rejected God in the O T here 1 Sam 8:7 !

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 16th, 2014, 02:07 PM
Keep getting burdened by historical revisionists dealing in arrogant (ignorant) intellectual bigotry. Throwing around accusations of an Apostle Paul cult conspiracy. Which was supposed to have rewritten the whole New Testament. Hundreds of treasured manuscripts. And no one noticed? Duh! Try doing that with a couple hundred emails sometimes. After it had been read. All the while claiming that Christianity has an anti Jewish bent because of it. Huh(?) again. Someone rally does not know the writings of Paul. Or the term used to describe the faith as Judeo-Christian. That it is a continuation of the prophesy of a Messiah. Makes me wonder if it is not rooted in a need to diminish God. Because to have someone in authority over you can be an uncomfortable feeling. Especially if you want to be like a snotty teenager. Wanting to do want you want no matter if it may hurt others or the culture. What did Paul have to gain by giving up his position. Beatings, stoning, whipping, imprisonment, left for dead a couple times, and finally executed.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2014, 01:17 PM
Keep getting burdened by historical revisionists dealing in arrogant (ignorant) intellectual bigotry. Throwing around accusations of an Apostle Paul cult conspiracy. Which was supposed to have rewritten the whole New Testament. Hundreds of treasured manuscripts. And no one noticed? Duh! Try doing that with a couple hundred emails sometimes. After it had been read. All the while claiming that Christianity has an anti Jewish bent because of it. Huh(?) again. Someone rally does not know the writings of Paul. Or the term used to describe the faith as Judeo-Christian. That it is a continuation of the prophesy of a Messiah. Makes me wonder if it is not rooted in a need to diminish God. Because to have someone in authority over you can be an uncomfortable feeling. Especially if you want to be like a snotty teenager. Wanting to do want you want no matter if it may hurt others or the culture. What did Paul have to gain by giving up his position. Beatings, stoning, whipping, imprisonment, left for dead a couple times, and finally executed.

Posted from the TOL App!

Paul's persecutions were due to his struggle to overturn Jewish synagogues into Christian churches by preaching that his "Christ" was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. Read II Timothy 2:8 and Acts 9:20. That's the reason why the local Jews wanted to kill him. (Acts 9:29) Because he was preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. I wonder what you would do if, for instance, Muslims came to your church to teach about Muhammad as the only prophet assigned by Allah and many got interested and considered conversion.

TimLutz
April 18th, 2014, 01:19 PM
You can dress a conspiracy pig any way you want. Still a conspiracy.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 18th, 2014, 01:22 PM
PS just how many times bad you read the Bible before you judged?

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2014, 02:08 PM
You can dress a conspiracy pig any way you want. Still a conspiracy.

Posted from the TOL App!

Conspiracy takes effect among members of the same ideology. I am struggling from outside to fight against attacks to my ideology. In other words, against the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2014, 02:14 PM
PS just how many times bad you read the Bible before you judged?

Posted from the TOL App!

A Jew does not need to read some thing more than three times to be able to discuss it. I read the NT 3 times to find out the reason why it was written and got myself on the road to meet Christian posters.

beloved57
April 18th, 2014, 02:17 PM
Paul's persecutions were due to his struggle to overturn Jewish synagogues into Christian churches by preaching that his "Christ" was the Messiah, son of God and that he had resurrected. Read II Timothy 2:8 and Acts 9:20. That's the reason why the local Jews wanted to kill him. (Acts 9:29) Because he was preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. I wonder what you would do if, for instance, Muslims came to your church to teach about Muhammad as the only prophet assigned by Allah and many got interested and considered conversion.

Jews hated God and Christ and the Prophets !

Posted from the TOL App!

intojoy
April 18th, 2014, 02:32 PM
Jews hated God and Christ and the Prophets !

Posted from the TOL App!


Fail

TimLutz
April 19th, 2014, 01:33 AM
Conspiracy takes effect among members of the same ideology. I am struggling from outside to fight against attacks to my ideology. In other words, against the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

Well then. If you I came to a Jewish site and started. making claims about their religion then I would be expected to have read their completed work.
Still like copying someone else's book report and claiming it for own. Then the one I copied from even did not do their homework.
Seems you are missing the big Messianic revival starting in Israel.
Rabbis are working with khouse.org in comparing the Torah's code to the completion in the New Testament. As it is said. New Testament in the Old Concealed. Old Testament in the New Revealed.
Also you must have missed all the OT verses in the NT.
But you do seem to pull a lot out of conjecture. Rather than even period secular history. It was the Greeks and Romans who did as much or more against Paul than the Jewish religious leaders.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 19th, 2014, 01:37 AM
And no I do not believe in Replacement theology. My boss is a Jewish carpenter who made the greatest purist sacrifice ever. Canceling all sin debt to whomever accepts. It was not nail that held Him there. It was love.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 22nd, 2014, 08:36 AM
Keep getting burdened by historical revisionists dealing in arrogant (ignorant) intellectual bigotry. Throwing around accusations of an Apostle Paul cult conspiracy. Which was supposed to have rewritten the whole New Testament. Hundreds of treasured manuscripts. And no one noticed? Duh! Try doing that with a couple hundred emails sometimes. After it had been read. All the while claiming that Christianity has an anti Jewish bent because of it. Huh(?) again. Someone rally does not know the writings of Paul. Or the term used to describe the faith as Judeo-Christian. That it is a continuation of the prophesy of a Messiah. Makes me wonder if it is not rooted in a need to diminish God. Because to have someone in authority over you can be an uncomfortable feeling. Especially if you want to be like a snotty teenager. Wanting to do want you want no matter if it may hurt others or the culture. What did Paul have to gain by giving up his position. Beatings, stoning, whipping, imprisonment, left for dead a couple times, and finally executed.

Posted from the TOL App!








Conspiracy takes effect among members of the same ideology. I am struggling from outside to fight against attacks to my ideology. In other words, against the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.



Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 22nd, 2014, 08:37 AM
Check out Olive Tree ministries.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2014, 12:01 PM
Well then. If you I came to a Jewish site and started. making claims about their religion then I would be expected to have read their completed work.
Still like copying someone else's book report and claiming it for own. Then the one I copied from even did not do their homework.
Seems you are missing the big Messianic revival starting in Israel.
Rabbis are working with khouse.org in comparing the Torah's code to the completion in the New Testament. As it is said. New Testament in the Old Concealed. Old Testament in the New Revealed.
Also you must have missed all the OT verses in the NT.
But you do seem to pull a lot out of conjecture. Rather than even period secular history. It was the Greeks and Romans who did as much or more against Paul than the Jewish religious leaders.

Posted from the TOL App!

Many of the OT verses found in the NT are there as a result of plagiarism with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Just mention some of them to me and, if I fail to tell you what they point to, I'll be more than fair to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2014, 12:17 PM
And no I do not believe in Replacement theology. My boss is a Jewish carpenter who made the greatest purist sacrifice ever. Canceling all sin debt to whomever accepts. It was not nail that held Him there. It was love.

Posted from the TOL App!

Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.

It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)

intojoy
April 22nd, 2014, 01:03 PM
Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.



It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)


Ben, have you read "Brothers" about the Jews from Poland during the pograms? It has nothing to do with Christ. Just about the Jews.

I love the Jews bro. Even those who deny the Messianic claims of Yeshua presented by His Jewish disciples.

It is unfortunate there aren't any Messianic Jews on TOL that can communicate on your level of intellect. There are many Gentiles that can and do but these believers do not present Yeshua from the Jewish context in which He came and died and rose from the dead. They present what they know and have been taught of which I mostly agree with but it lacks contextual arguments that favor Yeshua as your/our legitimate King Messiah.

If you want to challenge your thoughts against these of those trained up in Judaism I recommend Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and Gary Derechinsky.

Both from Polish Jewish historical cruelty handed out by "Christians". Gary's grandfather was conscripted by the Red Army. Many Jewish people who survived that horrific experience before hitler would not share with their families what happened there. They did not share their experience because they felt guilt to have seen their families slaughtered by the so called "Christians" while they survived.

Bernice Ruebens shares their story in her novel Brothers. I highly recommend that Christians read it.

Your friend - in2teasing people

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2014, 03:27 PM
[quote]Ben, have you read "Brothers" about the Jews from Poland during the pograms? It has nothing to do with Christ. Just about the Jews.

No Intojoy, I have not read it. I'll try to google it.


I love the Jews bro. Even those who deny the Messianic claims of Yeshua presented by His Jewish disciples.

Sorry pal, but I don't believe Yeshua ever claimed to be the Messiah or that even his disciples presented him as such. Evidence? The Sect of the Nazarenes organized on behalf of Jesus by the Apostles was headquartered in Jerusalem and preached their gospel without being bothered by the local Jews. When Paul brought his gospel to Jerusalem he was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)


It is unfortunate there aren't any Messianic Jews on TOL that can communicate on your level of intellect. There are many Gentiles that can and do but these believers do not present Yeshua from the Jewish context in which He came and died and rose from the dead.

Sorry again Intojoy, but Yeshua according to the above could never be from the Jewish context but from the context of Paul's gospel. Bodily resurrection is not according to Judaism the Faith of Jesus.


They present what they know and have been taught of which I mostly agree with but it lacks contextual arguments that favor Yeshua as your/our legitimate King Messiah.

Yeshua was not our legitimate Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's the word for the collective Messiah, "The Lord's anointed one."


If you want to challenge your thoughts against these of those trained up in Judaism I recommend Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and Gary Derechinsky.

I have a few ones discussing the matter through my private email. If there is a way to contact these two men you mention above, I'll be more than happy to comply.


Both from Polish Jewish historical cruelty handed out by "Christians". Gary's grandfather was conscripted by the Red Army. Many Jewish people who survived that horrific experience before hitler would not share with their families what happened there. They did not share their experience because they felt guilt to have seen their families slaughtered by the so called "Christians" while they survived.

I have read a lot about the Holocaust and the Jewish persecutions in the Russian Pale but never about these two men.

beloved57
April 22nd, 2014, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=intojoy;3872345]

No Intojoy, I have not read it. I'll try to google it.



Sorry pal, but I don't believe Yeshua ever claimed to be the Messiah or that even his disciples presented him as such. Evidence? The Sect of the Nazarenes organized on behalf of Jesus by the Apostles was headquartered in Jerusalem and preached their gospel without being bothered by the local Jews. When Paul brought his gospel to Jerusalem he was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)



Sorry again Intojoy, but Yeshua according to the above could never be from the Jewish context but from the context of Paul's gospel. Bodily resurrection is not according to Judaism the Faith of Jesus.



Yeshua was not our legitimate Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's the word for the collective Messiah, "The Lord's anointed one."



I have a few ones discussing the matter through my private email. If there is a way to contact these two men you mention above, I'll be more than happy to comply.



I have read a lot about the Holocaust and the Jewish persecutions in the Russian Pale but never about these two men.

The jews hated God and Christ !

Posted from the TOL App!

intojoy
April 22nd, 2014, 07:54 PM
Obviously a pro conscriptor!

beloved57
April 22nd, 2014, 07:58 PM
[QUOTE=beloved57;3873049]


Jesus is Jewish and speaks Hebrew

Not the Jesus that died for the sins of His people Israel, for He did not have a blood jew father nor was He from a human egg of a jewish woman !

Posted from the TOL App!

intojoy
April 22nd, 2014, 08:00 PM
We have a word we use in Polynesia, neutrally, for calling one a butt.

intojoy
April 22nd, 2014, 08:01 PM
[QUOTE=intojoy;3873055]

Not the Jesus that died for the sins of His people Israel, for He did not have a blood jew father nor was He from a human egg of a jewish woman !

Posted from the TOL App!


Ufa (ooofah)

TimLutz
April 23rd, 2014, 07:04 AM
Would like to point out that there is no shortage of warped people using religion to abuse others.
Also that Zionist Christians abound. How else could you explain Israel's United States support of millions a day. Plus the middle defence system "Iron Dome". That the Israelis perfected. Then the Christian ministries to aid Jews in Russia. No wonder so many convert in response to outreach of love. The law of love is the Way.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 23rd, 2014, 07:30 AM
Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.

It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)

One quick note.
Look at the over all patterns.
Matches. Will try to compile a good list when get time.
But the same hill Jesus sacrifices himself. Is the same one Abraham offered Issac.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 23rd, 2014, 08:12 AM
Christ was not the Essenes righteous teacher.
1. Jesus opposed legalism, whereas the Essenes held strictly to it.
2. Jesus also opposed ceremonial purity, while the Essenes again, adhered meticulously to it.
3. Jesus associated with common people and "sinners", whereas such activity was appalling to the Essenes.
4. The sinlessness of Jesus in contrast to the Essene teaching that even the Messiah would be purified from sin by suffering.
5. Jesus combined several messianic aspects, while the Qumran community was looking for two ( or even three) different messiahs.
6. Jesus did not teach a strong* hierarchy among his followers, while the Essenes imposed strict social rules.
7. Jesus group was open, but the Essene community was closed.
8.Jesus' ministry was public, while the Essenes were very private.
9. Jesus' teachings were oral, whereas the Essenes emphasised writing and copying.
10. Jesus' manner of teaching was clear, not obtuse as in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
11. Jesus had no formal training, in contrast to those from the Qumran community.
12. Healing was a major part of Jesus ministry, but this aspect was not emphasized at Qumran.
13. The teaching of love was Jesus' major ethical message, but does not appear in Essenes teachings.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 24th, 2014, 03:21 PM
Would like to point out that there is no shortage of warped people using religion to abuse others.
Also that Zionist Christians abound. How else could you explain Israel's United States support of millions a day. Plus the middle defence system "Iron Dome". That the Israelis perfected. Then the Christian ministries to aid Jews in Russia. No wonder so many convert in response to outreach of love. The law of love is the Way.

Posted from the TOL App!

First about your claim of Israel-USA support of millions a day. More than half of it comes from the Jewish pocket of the Diaspora Jews. The US part is not cash but weapons and defense systems perfected by Israel.

The aid from Christian ministries especially to the Russian Jews is based on two reasons: First due to the Christian belief that by doing so, they are rushing the return of Jesus and second, money; Jewish money donations to their ministries throughout the Diaspora. Once in LA, I asked this question to a Pastor and he said that the most abundant of donations are from rich Jews to promote their work in Israel.

Ben Masada
April 24th, 2014, 03:36 PM
One quick note.
Look at the over all patterns.
Matches. Will try to compile a good list when get time.
But the same hill Jesus sacrifices himself. Is the same one Abraham offered Issac.

Posted from the TOL App!

Abraham never literally offered Isaac in a burning sacrifice. The test was only part of a Catch-22. He never even left his bed. Here is what happened:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me.

As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

Ben Masada
April 24th, 2014, 03:44 PM
Christ was not the Essenes righteous teacher.
1. Jesus opposed legalism, whereas the Essenes held strictly to it.
2. Jesus also opposed ceremonial purity, while the Essenes again, adhered meticulously to it.
3. Jesus associated with common people and "sinners", whereas such activity was appalling to the Essenes.
4. The sinlessness of Jesus in contrast to the Essene teaching that even the Messiah would be purified from sin by suffering.
5. Jesus combined several messianic aspects, while the Qumran community was looking for two ( or even three) different messiahs.
6. Jesus did not teach a strong* hierarchy among his followers, while the Essenes imposed strict social rules.
7. Jesus group was open, but the Essene community was closed.
8.Jesus' ministry was public, while the Essenes were very private.
9. Jesus' teachings were oral, whereas the Essenes emphasised writing and copying.
10. Jesus' manner of teaching was clear, not obtuse as in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
11. Jesus had no formal training, in contrast to those from the Qumran community.
12. Healing was a major part of Jesus ministry, but this aspect was not emphasized at Qumran.
13. The teaching of love was Jesus' major ethical message, but does not appear in Essenes teachings.

Posted from the TOL App!

Jesus was a Jew of the fundamentalist kind of the Essenes and Pharisees. If you don't believe what I am saying, read Matthew 5:17-19. He said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it down to the letter even down to the dot of the letter." That's how the Essenes and Pharisees used to do. Jesus even implied with the parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.
Read Luke 16:29-31.

What's the matter? This is from your own NT. How come you do not understand these things? Trying to hide Jesus' similarities with his Faith which was Judaism? Not too wise.

TimLutz
April 24th, 2014, 07:29 PM
Jesus was a Jew of the fundamentalist kind of the Essenes and Pharisees. If you don't believe what I am saying, read Matthew 5:17-19. He said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it down to the letter even down to the dot of the letter." That's how the Essenes and Pharisees used to do. Jesus even implied with the parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.
Read Luke 16:29-31.

What's the matter? This is from your own NT. How come you do not understand these things? Trying to hide Jesus' similarities with his Faith which was Judaism? Not too wise.

Seems the more I converse with you the more you seem to be more of an athiest posing as a Jewish zealot.
So here is a a couple tests.
First a ground plane. Israel was supposed to evangelize. See Jonah. Plus instructions in the law on how to accept gentiles. But no they fell into the trap of being a exclusive intolerant tribe. Hense in the later times the Pharasies got a program started. As exampled by a couple quotes from Jesus.
But on with it.
The Temple Mount Faithful have all items needed to start up temple worship including sacrifice. Except that they deem it necessary that the first sacrifice is to be a red heifer. There is usually only one such an animal per generation. But in the last twenty years two have been put forth. But both had flaws. There is a breeding program and even genetic tinkering. God will provide. But the last piece of the end time puzzle is the Ark of the Covenant being returned. Some say it is being kept in Ethiopia. Others say that Jeremiah and the Temple priest hid it in a special prepped area of the tunnel/cistren system under Jerusalem. Some say neither and have other ideas of its where abouts.
So as a righteous Jew. What would be your first offering?
Jesus had a lot more sayings on how to be "right" with The Father. Which is actually old Testament. What does God require above sacrifice? And it has always been about being justified by Faith. Do a word search on the words Grace, Faith, and belief.
Seems that you like to pull things in from out of the scripture to prop up your point. So the person was an eye witness of Abraham. Amazing. I do not believe that the non Jewish history outside of scripture says anything against that part of His Story.
But it does say that Nimrod named what we call the constellation Orien, the "Hunter". But they call it another name, "The Fool". Which is what some half baked no degree debunker of the Bible really is.





Abraham never literally offered Isaac in a burning sacrifice. The test was only part of a Catch-22. He never even left his bed. Here is what happened:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me.

As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.



Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 25th, 2014, 02:19 PM
[quote]Seems the more I converse with you the more you seem to be more of an athiest posing as a Jewish zealot.

I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.


So here is a a couple tests. First a ground plane. Israel was supposed to evangelize. See Jonah. Plus instructions in the law on how to accept gentiles.

Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.


But no they fell into the trap of being a exclusive intolerant tribe.

But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)


The Temple Mount Faithful have all items needed to start up temple worship including sacrifice.

I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.


But the last piece of the end time puzzle is the Ark of the Covenant being returned. Some say it is being kept in Ethiopia. Others say that Jeremiah and the Temple priest hid it in a special prepped area of the tunnel/cistren system under Jerusalem. Some say neither and have other ideas of its where abouts.

IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.


So as a righteous Jew. What would be your first offering? Jesus had a lot more sayings on how to be "right" with The Father. Which is actually old Testament.

The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)


What does God require above sacrifice? And it has always been about being justified by Faith. Do a word search on the words Grace, Faith, and belief.

He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.

TimLutz
April 26th, 2014, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3875505]

I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.



Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.



But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)



I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.



IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.



The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)



He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.

Seems the Christians have been around since the time of Moses. Or shortly after. And yes you have more opinion that what is understood as practices.
And the sacrifices will resume as soon as the red heifer is procured. The sacrifices were first started in a tabranacle (tent). And it is believed that when the sacrifices are started up. God will make the temple mount available.
But in honor of your influence. I wrote a small piece on the Bible. Which I plan on putting on Facebook and WordPress.

The Bible is made up of 66 books thru 40 authors. Composed over a span of 1500 years. It has over 30,000 passages and over 700,000 words.
It can be thought of an interactive communications device. From a class 5 civilization to a class 0. And the more it is read and seriously studied the more connectivity can be seen. I believe in taking the whole seriously. In context, understanding the one in the 200 types of speech is being used. Making note of the culture, time, and language translation differences.
However. There are many who are out to deface and debase the Bible. And do not approach it in the right manner. Jesus referred to these as pigs and dogs. Whom you are just wasting your time quoting scripture to.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 26th, 2014, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]

[quote]Seems the Christians have been around since the time of Moses. Or shortly after. And yes you have more opinion that what is understood as practices.

I am not a Christian if this is what you are implying.


And the sacrifices will resume as soon as the red heifer is procured. The sacrifices were first started in a tabranacle (tent). And it is believed that when the sacrifices are started up. God will make the temple mount available.

I am glad you think so but not as the sacrifices are concerned. I want the Temple rebuilt but to be the mother of all synagogues; a place to be visited by all alike, Jews and Gentiles.


But in honor of your influence. I wrote a small piece on the Bible. Which I plan on putting on Facebook and WordPress.

Post it here. I am not too fun with the face book.


The Bible is made up of 66 books thru 40 authors. Composed over a span of 1500 years. It has over 30,000 passages and over 700,000 words.

It depends on the Bible you are talking about. As Jesus' Bible was concerned, it is composed of 39 books. The NT he never even dreamed that it would ever rise.


However. There are many who are out to deface and debase the Bible. And do not approach it in the right manner. Jesus referred to these as pigs and dogs. Whom you are just wasting your time quoting scripture to.

Well, I did find the text when Jesus referred to some people as being as pigs and dogs. It was at his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he warned them not to give what is holy unto the dogs neither cast their pearls before swine. (Mat. 7:6) Jesus was delivering that sermon of his to the Jews if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28. Do you have any idea whom he was talking about?

TimLutz
April 27th, 2014, 07:29 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3877244][QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]



I am not a Christian if this is what you are implying.



I am glad you think so but not as the sacrifices are concerned. I want the Temple rebuilt but to be the mother of all synagogues; a place to be visited by all alike, Jews and Gentiles.



Post it here. I am not too fun with the face book.



It depends on the Bible you are talking about. As Jesus' Bible was concerned, it is composed of 39 books. The NT he never even dreamed that it would ever rise.



Well, I did find the text when Jesus referred to some people as being as pigs and dogs. It was at his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he warned them not to give what is holy unto the dogs neither cast their pearls before swine. (Mat. 7:6) Jesus was delivering that sermon of his to the Jews if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28. Do you have any idea whom he was talking about?

Still am kinda confused with your belief background. Especially since you do not go with Moses writing of the first five books. Imagination and passed tradition perhaps.
It is. To have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith. The still quiet voice. Peace!

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
April 27th, 2014, 09:18 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3875505]

I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.



Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.



But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)



I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.



IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.



The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)



He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.

I would guess that if you would look at it from the poor abused citizen on the streets of Israel in the first century. Then you may be able to make sense why it is said 85% were Christian in the region by the end of that century. You had a corrupt abusive priesthood that showed favor to the wealthy and a government. Which was an occupation of a foreign power. A system that had cheats set up in the temple to sell tainted offerings. Also a system that treated women and outsiders second class.
Then on the other hand you had a group spouting off about the Kingdom of God, forgiveness without payoff. Miracles ( supported by eyewitnesses), and prophesy pointing to the hoped for Messiah. A foot washing servant leadership. Equality for all. And all supported by a group that gave you the shirt off their backs.
Looks like unfair competition to me. Ha!

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
April 29th, 2014, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3877267][QUOTE=TimLutz;3877244]

Still am kinda confused with your belief background. Especially since you do not go with Moses writing of the first five books. Imagination and passed tradition perhaps.
It is. To have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith. The still quiet voice. Peace!

Posted from the TOL App!

What difference does it make if Moses wrote those books or another Jew did it? To me, it makes no difference as long as the author was a Jew. I do not make of Judaism a way of life to me because of the authors of the Scriptures but because they were written by Jews and canonized according to Judaism.

I don't have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith but in the mind as I don't walk by faith but by sight. According to Paul in II Corinthians 5:7, to walk by faith is for Christians; Jews walk by sight aka Reason.

Ben Masada
April 29th, 2014, 11:02 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]

I would guess that if you would look at it from the poor abused citizen on the streets of Israel in the first century. Then you may be able to make sense why it is said 85% were Christian in the region by the end of that century. You had a corrupt abusive priesthood that showed favor to the wealthy and a government. Which was an occupation of a foreign power. A system that had cheats set up in the temple to sell tainted offerings. Also a system that treated women and outsiders second class. Then on the other hand you had a group spouting off about the Kingdom of God, forgiveness without payoff. Miracles ( supported by eyewitnesses), and prophesy pointing to the hoped for Messiah. A foot washing servant leadership. Equality for all. And all supported by a group that gave you the shirt off their backs. Looks like unfair competition to me. Ha!



Do you know why you haven't quoted any thing of the above? Because they are all lies fabricated by anti-Semites with the intent on Replacement Theology. The truth is quite different.

First of all, perhaps about 5% and not 85% were of Christians by the end of the First Century. Till the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 ACE, Paul never could build a Christian church in Jerusalem. He had been expelled out of Jerusalem after only 15 days that he had come to preach his peculiar gospel in Jerusalem. He was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)

Regarding what you claim of a corrupt Priesthood and Jewish authorities who showed favors to the wealth and abandoned the poor are all lying anti-Semitic slanders. Priests and Pharisees would hold Yeshivas and teach Torah for free to prodigious young men who could not afford paying. They would even give a small salary so that they could dedicate themselves only to Torah studies. Once, Jesus was found in the Temple Yeshiva studying Torah. (Luke 2:46) It means that even Jesus was a beneficiary of the charity in a Pharisaic Yeshiva.

And with regards to treatment of women, you are confusing the Jewish authorities with Paul who would refer to women as natural morons who should listen in silence and be completely submissive. According to Paul women were not permitted to teach and in no way to have authority over man. They should shut up because if it had not been for them, man would not have become a sinner. If they want to be saved, he said, the way was only through childbearing. That's in I Timothy 2:11-15. If in your eyes the Jewish authorities treated women as a second citizens, Paul who was the soul of the NT treated women as stupid slaves good only to produce children. What kind of a system was that?

TimLutz
April 30th, 2014, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3878542]

Do you know why you haven't quoted any thing of the above? Because they are all lies fabricated by anti-Semites with the intent on Replacement Theology. The truth is quite different.

First of all, perhaps about 5% and not 85% were of Christians by the end of the First Century. Till the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 ACE, Paul never could build a Christian church in Jerusalem. He had been expelled out of Jerusalem after only 15 days that he had come to preach his peculiar gospel in Jerusalem. He was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)

Regarding what you claim of a corrupt Priesthood and Jewish authorities who showed favors to the wealth and abandoned the poor are all lying anti-Semitic slanders. Priests and Pharisees would hold Yeshivas and teach Torah for free to prodigious young men who could not afford paying. They would even give a small salary so that they could dedicate themselves only to Torah studies. Once, Jesus was found in the Temple Yeshiva studying Torah. (Luke 2:46) It means that even Jesus was a beneficiary of the charity in a Pharisaic Yeshiva.

And with regards to treatment of women, you are confusing the Jewish authorities with Paul who would refer to women as natural morons who should listen in silence and be completely submissive. According to Paul women were not permitted to teach and in no way to have authority over man. They should shut up because if it had not been for them, man would not have become a sinner. If they want to be saved, he said, the way was only through childbearing. That's in I Timothy 2:11-15. If in your eyes the Jewish authorities treated women as a second citizens, Paul who was the soul of the NT treated women as stupid slaves good only to produce children. What kind of a system was that?

One instance in one church. Jesus had women as disciples. Unheard of. And if all the NT is a catch of lies. Then why did not the leaders oppose then by fact checking eye witnesses? Or where they inept? Or was Paul a all powerful genius? It is an either or it is truth. And you are just spinning tales. There are 18 independent sources that confirm the NT.
Oh and a side note. Late dating the NT is kinda cut down because no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem ( was run over 27 times). Also your conspiracy theories on the rewrites kinda fall short. If so then they would match better. Points to independent authorship. You can reason yourself out of reasonability. As so it seems. And why is Judaism still flagging on outreach? Better get in the game unless you have been just playing with a losing hand. You are right about God desiring obedience and mercy over bribery.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 1st, 2014, 01:50 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3880087]

One instance in one church. Jesus had women as disciples. Unheard of. And if all the NT is a catch of lies. Then why did not the leaders oppose then by fact checking eye witnesses? Or where they inept? Or was Paul a all powerful genius? It is an either or it is truth. And you are just spinning tales. There are 18 independent sources that confirm the NT.
Oh and a side note. Late dating the NT is kinda cut down because no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem ( was run over 27 times). Also your conspiracy theories on the rewrites kinda fall short. If so then they would match better. Points to independent authorship. You can reason yourself out of reasonability. As so it seems. And why is Judaism still flagging on outreach? Better get in the game unless you have been just playing with a losing hand. You are right about God desiring obedience and mercy over bribery.

Posted from the TOL App!

Now, compare my well-documented posts with yours without a single quote and tell me who is spinning tales. That's a shame TimLutz that you don't have what it takes to discuss your own NT with a Jew who has read it just a few times. No other Jew would dare even to look at a NT in the library. If a few others like me went as far as to read it, Christians would be at a loss to justify the use of a Jew whose Faith was Judaism to preach against his Faith.

Whatever you mean by Judaism flagging on outreach is fear for persecutions as they have suffered throughout History by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. But thanks to the internet we have found a safe way to defend our Faith.

TimLutz
May 2nd, 2014, 10:21 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3881297]

Now, compare my well-documented posts with yours without a single quote and tell me who is spinning tales. That's a shame TimLutz that you don't have what it takes to discuss your own NT with a Jew who has read it just a few times. No other Jew would dare even to look at a NT in the library. If a few others like me went as far as to read it, Christians would be at a loss to justify the use of a Jew whose Faith was Judaism to preach against his Faith.

Whatever you mean by Judaism flagging on outreach is fear for persecutions as they have suffered throughout History by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. But thanks to the internet we have found a safe way to defend our Faith.

Text without context, is just pretext.
The Bible can be viewed as an interactive device. A gift from a highly developed civilization. What you get out of it, depends upon your hearts attitude going into it. There are many verses that warn of God's dislike and resistance of prideful, hard hearted, mockers.
The verses are there. And I have my doubts about you honesty in seeking God.
One test..
Can you agree.
God loves us.
God is good.
God is just.
God gives warning.
Then I will share where to find the pearls.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 5th, 2014, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3882760]

Text without context, is just pretext.
The Bible can be viewed as an interactive device. A gift from a highly developed civilization. What you get out of it, depends upon your hearts attitude going into it. There are many verses that warn of God's dislike and resistance of prideful, hard hearted, mockers.
The verses are there. And I have my doubts about you honesty in seeking God.
One test..
Can you agree.
God loves us.
God is good.
God is just.
God gives warning.
Then I will share where to find the pearls.

Posted from the TOL App!

True, that's why all that you have been posting so far is just pretext because even the texts you cannot indicate for evidences of what you say.

True, the Bible is indeed a gift from a highly developed civilization. Take a look at the evidence of this fact in Deuteronomy 4:6. "...Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding People."

True, the verses are there but you don't know where. At least it is a courtesy to quote your evidences.

TimLutz
May 5th, 2014, 11:20 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3884158]

True, that's why all that you have been posting so far is just pretext because even the texts you cannot indicate for evidences of what you say.

True, the Bible is indeed a gift from a highly developed civilization. Take a look at the evidence of this fact in Deuteronomy 4:6. "...Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding People."

True, the verses are there but you don't know where. At least it is a courtesy to quote your evidences.

Could be found doing a simple web search. Wikipedia has an article on Jesus Disciples. But OK even though I fully believe your just as I suspected and not a God chaser. I will do the collection on women as disciples and in leadership roles in the NT. Got work so sometimes tomorrow.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 5th, 2014, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3887175]

Could be found doing a simple web search. Wikipedia has an article on Jesus Disciples. But OK even though I fully believe your just as I suspected and not a God chaser. I will do the collection on women as disciples and in leadership roles in the NT. Got work so sometimes tomorrow.

Posted from the TOL App!

Good luck!

TimLutz
May 5th, 2014, 01:21 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3887191]

Good luck!

Mark chapters 15 and16. Acts chapter 1 for starters.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 5th, 2014, 01:30 PM
Acts chapters 16 and 17

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 5th, 2014, 02:46 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3887201]

Mark chapters 15 and16. Acts chapter 1 for starters.

Posted from the TOL App!

What do you want to know about those texts? It seems to me you don't know how to quote. Biblical quotes must come with chapters and verses to be specific unless you are alone in this website.

Bright Raven
May 5th, 2014, 02:59 PM
What is required, good works or grace?

TimLutz
May 6th, 2014, 08:04 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3887311]

What do you want to know about those texts? It seems to me you don't know how to quote. Biblical quotes must come with chapters and verses to be specific unless you are alone in this website.

The books were not written with it. And chapters were arranged to keep consistent with the meanings of what ever needed to be conveyed. Cutting up the scriptures leads to abuse which you do.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 6th, 2014, 08:05 AM
What is required, good works or grace?

Thanks Bright Raven for bring focus back.

2 Timothy 3:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16*All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Sola Scriptura, scripture alone.
Sola fide, faith alone.
Sola gratia, grace alone.
Solus Christus, Christ alone.
Soli Deo gloria, glory to God alone.
We come to knowledge and relationship with God. By searching knowledge from scripture, justified by faith thru the gift of grace. The gift paid for by Christ's atonement, on the cross. Not by works of man. All Glory for all this to God alone.

Ephesians 2:8-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
8*For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9*not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10*For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 6th, 2014, 09:03 AM
Galatians 3:5-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
5*Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6*just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[a] 7*Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8*And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[b] 9*So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10*For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 6th, 2014, 09:21 AM
And by the way BM. The first time both grace and faith are mentioned in the Bible was over Abraham.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 11:35 AM
What is required, good works or grace?

The chance we have to do good works in order to set things right with God comes as a result of God's grace. That's what the Law is all about: To show us what is wrong and what we ought to do to keep us out of trouble. Therefore, to answer your question above, good works is what is required, but goods works in terms of obedience to God's Law. This cannot be distinguished from grace.

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 11:38 AM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3887383]

The books were not written with it. And chapters were arranged to keep consistent with the meanings of what ever needed to be conveyed. Cutting up the scriptures leads to abuse which you do.

Posted from the TOL App!

It means, deep down, you are not interested is answers from the Scriptures.

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 11:48 AM
Galatians 3:5-10
New King James Version (NKJV)
5*Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6*just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[a] 7*Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8*And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[b] 9*So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

The Law Brings a Curse

10*For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them

Posted from the TOL App!

No one is justified by faith but by the way he or she has lived according to the Law. Abraham was justified by his works. Read James 2:21.

The Law brings salvation. What brings curses are our sins. If you obey the Law you will have life free of trouble. We need to abide by the Law. If we break the Law, that's not the end of us. We can always repent and obey. (Isa. 1:18,19) To break the Law is human; to reject the Law is insurrection. That's when the curse sets in.

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 11:51 AM
And by the way BM. The first time both grace and faith are mentioned in the Bible was over Abraham.

Posted from the TOL App!

And Abraham got justified for his good works. (James 2:21)

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 12:32 PM
And Abraham got justified for his good works. (James 2:21)

You make my point of gripe with you. You shorten context to change meaning.

James 2:18-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
18*But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19*You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20*But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21*Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22*Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Works is the seal of the proof of faith and grace.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 12:36 PM
Genesis 15:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4*And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5*Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6*And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 12:44 PM
Final aside. Paul was not allowed (trusted) to fellowship with the Jerusalem church for twenty years after his conversion. He was leading them? Not quite.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 12:50 PM
You make my point of gripe with you. You shorten context to change meaning.

James 2:18-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
18*But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19*You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20*But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21*Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22*Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Works is the seal of the proof of faith and grace.

Posted from the TOL App!

I have read James 2:18-22. I did not mention the whole text because good works and faith in this context are one and the same. Therefore, it is meaningless to distinguish between one and the other as Christians like to, just to discredit the role of the Law. If by good works faith is made perfect, without good works faith is meaningless as grace comes only through obedience to the law.

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 12:56 PM
It is the seal of election. And good works are beside not sinning. As in giving and helping. An acceptable blood sacrifice has to be made to attone for sin.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 12:57 PM
And if not picking up a paperclip and returning it to the proper owner could be called sin. Sins of commission and ommission.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:02 PM
Genesis 15:4-6
New King James Version (NKJV)
4*And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.” 5*Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

6*And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Posted from the TOL App!

"This one shall not be your heir but the one who will come from your own body shall be your heir." I am glad you have quoted Genesis 15:4 yourself. Now the question is, do you understand what you have quoted? The text is about Ishmael who had come from Abraham's own body. Nevertheless, "this one shall not be your heir." Then Isaac was born from Abraham's own body. Then Abraham's descendants through Isaac aka Jacob became the heir. Now, can you please tell me whom is the text about as the descendants of Abraham through Isaac as being the heir? Bet your best here and speak without preconceived notions. Who is the heir in this text of God's Word?

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 01:08 PM
Ahem. So where does it say Ishmael? And if so then the Jewish nation is not the chosen people. And we are both lost.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:08 PM
Final aside. Paul was not allowed (trusted) to fellowship with the Jerusalem church for twenty years after his conversion. He was leading them? Not quite.

Posted from the TOL App!

For 20 years! Paul was never allowed to fellowship with the Sect of the Nazarenes in Jerusalem. James the head of the Sect and all the Apostles of Jesus never trusted him. For Paul they were false apostles preaching a different gospel about a different Jesus. Read II Corinthians 11:4-6, 13.

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:14 PM
It is the seal of election. And good works are beside not sinning. As in giving and helping. An acceptable blood sacrifice has to be made to attone for sin.

Posted from the TOL App!

No blood sacrifice either of an animal or of a man is acceptable to atone for sin. No one can die for the sins of another. (Ezek. 18:4,20)

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:15 PM
And if not picking up a paperclip and returning it to the proper owner could be called sin. Sins of commission and ommission.

Posted from the TOL App!

Please, now you are exaggerating, unless you are speaking metaphorically.

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:21 PM
Ahem. So where does it say Ishmael? And if so then the Jewish nation is not the chosen people. And we are both lost.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ahem! Read Genesis 17:19-22. Ishmael would be blessed but God's Covenant would be with the heir aka descendants from Isaac that would be born of Sarah and not of the slave woman.

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 01:48 PM
Bereshis 15:1-6
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
15*After these things the Devar Hashem came unto Avram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Avram; I am thy mogen, and thy exceeding great sachar (reward).
2*And Avram said, Adonoi Hashem, what wilt Thou give me, since I go childless, and the Ben Meshek of my Bais is this Eliezer of Dameshek (Damascus)?
3*And Avram said, See, to me Thou hast given no zera; and, hinei, one born in my bais is my yoresh (heir).
4*And, hinei, the Devar Hashem came unto him saying, This shall not be thy yoresh; but he that shall come forth out of thine own body shall be thy yoresh.
5*And He brought him forth outside, and said, Look now toward Shomayim, and count the kokhavim, if thou be able to number them; and He said unto him, So shall thy zera be.
6*And he believed in Hashem; and He credited [emunah (faith)] to him as tzedakah (righteousness)
Does not say that there either.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 01:54 PM
Bereshis 15:1-6
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
15*After these things the Devar Hashem came unto Avram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Avram; I am thy mogen, and thy exceeding great sachar (reward).
2*And Avram said, Adonoi Hashem, what wilt Thou give me, since I go childless, and the Ben Meshek of my Bais is this Eliezer of Dameshek (Damascus)?
3*And Avram said, See, to me Thou hast given no zera; and, hinei, one born in my bais is my yoresh (heir).
4*And, hinei, the Devar Hashem came unto him saying, This shall not be thy yoresh; but he that shall come forth out of thine own body shall be thy yoresh.
5*And He brought him forth outside, and said, Look now toward Shomayim, and count the kokhavim, if thou be able to number them; and He said unto him, So shall thy zera be.
6*And he believed in Hashem; and He credited [emunah (faith)] to him as tzedakah (righteousness)
Does not say that there either.

Posted from the TOL App!

No wonder you have chosen a parrot for your atavah.

TimLutz
May 8th, 2014, 01:56 PM
Cannot see fish decoy? So you stand along against 1500 years of understanding of a passage. BM you are just one lost individual.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 8th, 2014, 02:00 PM
Cannot see fish decoy? So you stand along against 1500 years of understanding of a passage. BM you are just one lost individual.

Posted from the TOL App!

...trying to save those who can never find themselves.

TimLutz
May 9th, 2014, 04:57 AM
...trying to save those who can never find themselves.

Ishmael not the heir

Genesis 15:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4*And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, “This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir.”

As it was exampled that the two shall become one as husband as wife. Not whoever comes along. Hagar could not produce a heir.
As can be noted in the following God backing up Sarah also underlines this point.

Genesis 17:17-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
17*Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed, and said in his heart, “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?” 18*And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

19*Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. 20*And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21*But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” 22*Then He finished talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Genesis 21:8-14
New King James Version (NKJV)
Hagar and Ishmael Depart

8*So the child grew and was weaned. And Abraham made a great feast on the same day that Isaac was weaned.

9*And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, scoffing. 10*Therefore she said to Abraham, “Cast out this bondwoman and her son; for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, namely with Isaac.” 11*And the matter was very displeasing in Abraham’s sight because of his son.

12*But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called. 13*Yet I will also make a nation of the son of the bondwoman, because he is your seed.”

14*So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water; and putting it on her shoulder, he gave it and the boy to Hagar, and sent her away. Then she departed and wandered in the Wilderness of Beersheba.

Genesis 21:20-26
New King James Version (NKJV)
20*So God was with the lad; and he grew and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. 21*He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him from the land of Egypt.

A Covenant with Abimelech

22*And it came to pass at that time that Abimelech and Phichol, the commander of his army, spoke to Abraham, saying, “God is with you in all that you do. 23*Now therefore, swear to me by God that you will not deal falsely with me, with my offspring, or with my posterity; but that according to the kindness that I have done to you, you will do to me and to the land in which you have dwelt.”

24*And Abraham said, “I will swear.”

25*Then Abraham rebuked Abimelech because of a well of water which Abimelech’s servants had seized. 26*And Abimelech said, “I do not know who has done this thing; you did not tell me, nor had I heard of it until today."

But back to the subject. We cannot be justified by the law. No one keeps it, period. And yes God accepts true repentance. But that also is an act of faith.

Genesis 15:6
New King James Version (NKJV)
6*And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Habakkuk 2:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Just Live by Faith

2*Then the Lord answered me and said:

“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3*For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.
4*“Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 9th, 2014, 02:13 PM
Ishmael not the heir

But back to the subject. We cannot be justified by the law. No one keeps it, period. And yes God accepts true repentance. But that also is an act of faith.


Are you sure? Let us assume "A" keeps the Law and "B" goes by faith. "B" had a bad night and did not sleep well. As a result, as he took his car in the morning to go to work, he crossed the red light in a crowed intersection. Then
he had to choose either go to Court or pay a high bill for his transgression. He thought it through and decided to go to Court and play the grace card. He rationalized that being saved by the grace he was not under the Law. It didn't work. In the meantime, "A" was enjoying his peaceful state of mind for not even having to go through Court procedures because he obeyed the Law. Bottom line, "A" was justified for obeying the Law and "B" had to fix his idea of how to get justified. Grace would not work. And the same is with all the commandments of the Law.

TimLutz
May 9th, 2014, 06:07 PM
Are you sure? Let us assume "A" keeps the Law and "B" goes by faith. "B" had a bad night and did not sleep well. As a result, as he took his car in the morning to go to work, he crossed the red light in a crowed intersection. Then
he had to choose either go to Court or pay a high bill for his transgression. He thought it through and decided to go to Court and play the grace card. He rationalized that being saved by the grace he was not under the Law. It didn't work. In the meantime, "A" was enjoying his peaceful state of mind for not even having to go through Court procedures because he obeyed the Law. Bottom line, "A" was justified for obeying the Law and "B" had to fix his idea of how to get justified. Grace would not work. And the same is with all the commandments of the Law.

Does anyone for an hour keep the law perfectly? Read the law of the Bible. Just to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly is impossible. You could even sin in your sleep.
But to say that we do as we please and do not care what God wants that is not a pentatent heart. Remember what God requires over sacrifice.

Habakkuk 2:2-4
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Just Live by Faith

2*Then the Lord answered me and said:

“Write the vision
And make it plain on tablets,
That he may run who reads it.
3*For the vision is yet for an appointed time;
But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
Because it will surely come,
It will not tarry.
4*“Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

Now let us talk of Grace. Which is the gift of salvation. So do you earn your salvation by doing what is normally expected from you? To be perfect is the entrance fee. Never having sinned. Unless you receive Grace. So are you ready for the verses on Grace in the Old Testament? Starts with Abraham.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 10th, 2014, 01:55 PM
[quote]Does anyone for an hour keep the law perfectly? Read the law of the Bible. Just to keep the Ten Commandments perfectly is impossible. You could even sin in your sleep.

God knows that we are humans. To break the Law is human; to reject the Law is insurrection. If we break the Law there is a way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. All we need is to repent and return to obedience. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.


But to say that we do as we please and do not care what God wants that is not a pentatent heart. Remember what God requires over sacrifice.

God requires no sacrifice to have our sins forgiven. Sacrifices were allowed to be used for two reasons: First because, after 430 years as slaves in a land of pagans they could not have an idea of a religion without sacrifice. Not to allow the sacrifices of animals it would prove impossible to take the Israelites out of Egypt. And the second reason was prophetical. To foretell the Scapegoat in Israel making atonement for Judah in terms of the Divine rejection of Israel and confirmation of Judah as God's People. (Psalm 78:67-69)


Habakkuk 2:2-4 New King James Version (NKJV) The Just Live by Faith

There is no difference between faith and the Law. If one claims faith without obeying the Law, he is lost. Therefore, the just is saved by obeying the Law.


Now let us talk of Grace. Which is the gift of salvation. So do you earn your salvation by doing what is normally expected from you? To be perfect is the entrance fee. Never having sinned. Unless you receive Grace. So are you ready for the verses on Grace in the Old Testament? Starts with Abraham.

As Abraham was justified by his good works aka obedience to the Law, this proves that the giving of the Law was God's giving grace for man to know good from evil and get saved by obeying God's Word. (James 2:21)

TimLutz
May 10th, 2014, 06:19 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3892336]

God knows that we are humans. To break the Law is human; to reject the Law is insurrection. If we break the Law there is a way to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. All we need is to repent and return to obedience. Read Isaiah 1:18,19.



God requires no sacrifice to have our sins forgiven. Sacrifices were allowed to be used for two reasons: First because, after 430 years as slaves in a land of pagans they could not have an idea of a religion without sacrifice. Not to allow the sacrifices of animals it would prove impossible to take the Israelites out of Egypt. And the second reason was prophetical. To foretell the Scapegoat in Israel making atonement for Judah in terms of the Divine rejection of Israel and confirmation of Judah as God's People. (Psalm 78:67-69)



There is no difference between faith and the Law. If one claims faith without obeying the Law, he is lost. Therefore, the just is saved by obeying the Law.



As Abraham was justified by his good works aka obedience to the Law, this proves that the giving of the Law was God's giving grace for man to know good from evil and get saved by obeying God's Word. (James 2:21)


& So I say to you BM.
That in order to be justified to God. You either.
A. Never sin.
B. Rely on forgiveness you are not entitled to or could earn.
A. Is as you say, not normal.
B. Is grace.



Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 12th, 2014, 02:06 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3893182]

So I say to you BM. That in order to be justified to God. You either.
A. Never sin.
B. Rely on forgiveness you are not entitled to or could earn.
A. Is as you say, not normal.
B. Is grace.



None of the above. None because what you mean by "B Is grace" you mean without the Law and, to me, there is no grace without the Law as the Law itself was given as a result of God's grace.

TimLutz
May 12th, 2014, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3893449]

None of the above. None because what you mean by "B Is grace" you mean without the Law and, to me, there is no grace without the Law as the Law itself was given as a result of God's grace.

Seems you like to add things to what I say as usual BM.

So you deserve forgiveness?

And wondering.
Do you prove by science your beliefs and base it on scripture or rumor?

And while doing a Bible group study ran across this on Eli.
So. Just when did God stop asking for sacrifice to atone for sin?

Shmuel Alef 3:11-15
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
11*And Hashem said to Shmuel, Hinei, I am doing a thing in Yisroel, at which both the oznayim of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
12*In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his Bais; from beginning even to the end.
13*For I have told him that I will judge his Bais ad olam for the avon (iniquity) which he knoweth; because his banim brought klalot (curses) upon themselves, and he restrained them not.
14*And therefore I have sworn unto the Bais Eli, that there shall be no kapporah for the avon Bais Eli by zevach nor minchah ad olam.
15*And Shmuel lay until boker, and opened the dlatot Beis Hashem. And Shmuel feared to show Eli the mareh (vision).
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International

Add parallelX

1 Samuel 3:11-15
New International Version (NIV)
11*And the Lord said to Samuel: “See, I am about to do something in Israel that will make the ears of everyone who hears about it tingle. 12*At that time I will carry out against Eli everything I spoke against his family—from beginning to end. 13*For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons blasphemed God,[a] and he failed to restrain them. 14*Therefore I swore to the house of Eli, ‘The guilt of Eli’s house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.’”

15*Samuel lay down until morning and then opened the doors of the house of the Lord. He was afraid to tell Eli the vision.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 14th, 2014, 12:22 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3894803]


And while doing a Bible group study ran across this on Eli.
So. Just when did God stop asking for sacrifice to atone for sin?



I remember to have explained to you before that God never asked for sacrifices. That sacrifices were allowed into the religion of Israel to make it easier for Moses to get them out of Egypt where they had spent 430 years, enough time to get familiarized with the concept that a religion to be a religion had to make use of animal sacrifices. The thing stuck and remained so up to the final destruction of the Temple by the Romans in the year 70 ACE.

Now, to answer your question above, read Jeremiah 7:22 "For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." It means in other words that, you have added them at your own free will. Never mind that throughout the Scriptures the leaders of the People would use them as a requirement of the Lord but only to enhance the concept of the divine power of religions. Anyways, some thing was found among the learned ones that the sacrifices could be used within the prophetic concept to foretell events like the one of the Scapegoat symbolized by Israel being taken to Azazel toward the desert through the East to Assyria.

Another classic demonstration of God's aversion to sacrifices is in Isaiah 1:11,13. "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lambs or of goats. Bring no more vain oblations as incense is an abomination unto me."

Just another one: It is in Samuel 15:22. "And Samuel said, Has the Lord any delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifices of rams."

TimLutz
May 15th, 2014, 04:14 AM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3895105]

I remember to have explained to you before that God never asked for sacrifices. That sacrifices were allowed into the religion of Israel to make it easier for Moses to get them out of Egypt where they had spent 430 years, enough time to get familiarized with the concept that a religion to be a religion had to make use of animal sacrifices. The thing stuck and remained so up to the final destruction of the Temple by the Romans in the year 70 ACE.

Now, to answer your question above, read Jeremiah 7:22 "For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices." It means in other words that, you have added them at your own free will. Never mind that throughout the Scriptures the leaders of the People would use them as a requirement of the Lord but only to enhance the concept of the divine power of religions. Anyways, some thing was found among the learned ones that the sacrifices could be used within the prophetic concept to foretell events like the one of the Scapegoat symbolized by Israel being taken to Azazel toward the desert through the East to Assyria.

Another classic demonstration of God's aversion to sacrifices is in Isaiah 1:11,13. "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? says the Lord. I am full of the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks or of lambs or of goats. Bring no more vain oblations as incense is an abomination unto me."

Just another one: It is in Samuel 15:22. "And Samuel said, Has the Lord any delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifices of rams."

So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

Posted from the TOL App!

chrysostom
May 15th, 2014, 04:47 AM
So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

Posted from the TOL App!

love can do that

TimLutz
May 15th, 2014, 07:42 AM
If it is forced. Then can it be called love?

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 15th, 2014, 02:36 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3897102]

So God is obligated/forced to forgive?

Posted from the TOL App!

The Lord has nothing to forgive any one for. If we offend some one, only that person can forgive what we have done. Remember what Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:23,24. If you come to the altar to get forgiveness for some thing and remembers that some one else has an issue against you, leave every thing behind and go set things right with your neighbor and only then you can return and continue with your plead. It means that there is no forgiveness from God if we first don't get it from whom we have offended.

Ben Masada
May 15th, 2014, 02:41 PM
love can do that

But we cannot get forgiveness for lack of love. Love is an emotion and emotions are not subject to the Law. Forgiveness must be achieved from whom we have offended as a result of respect. Respect yes, it is even demanded of us to be able to live in society.

Ben Masada
May 15th, 2014, 02:42 PM
If it is forced. Then can it be called love?

Posted from the TOL App!

No, love can't be forced. Love is controlled by emotions.

TimLutz
May 15th, 2014, 05:10 PM
So does God love us?

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 16th, 2014, 03:22 PM
So does God love us?

Posted from the TOL App!

Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.

beloved57
May 16th, 2014, 08:27 PM
Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.

You mean your god !

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 17th, 2014, 03:45 AM
Not in the sense of man's love controlled by emotions. God is a Spiritual Being. He does not love the way man does. God's love is akin to the natural laws.

Better explain that one a bit deeper. So does God have emotions?

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 17th, 2014, 02:36 PM
Better explain that one a bit deeper. So does God have emotions?

Posted from the TOL App!

That's not what I said; and I believe my post was pretty much clear. Our love is based on our emotions as humans. God cannot be compared to humans. Read Isaiah 46:5. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24)

TimLutz
May 18th, 2014, 04:19 AM
That's not what I said; and I believe my post was pretty much clear. Our love is based on our emotions as humans. God cannot be compared to humans. Read Isaiah 46:5. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24)

But does He have free will?

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 18th, 2014, 04:21 AM
But we cannot get forgiveness for lack of love. Love is an emotion and emotions are not subject to the Law. Forgiveness must be achieved from whom we have offended as a result of respect. Respect yes, it is even demanded of us to be able to live in society.

But it was stated many times that all offences are against God first. Highlight King David.

Posted from the TOL App!

TimLutz
May 18th, 2014, 05:48 PM
[QUOTE=TimLutz;3897723]

The Lord has nothing to forgive any one for. If we offend some one, only that person can forgive what we have done. Remember what Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:23,24. If you come to the altar to get forgiveness for some thing and remembers that some one else has an issue against you, leave every thing behind and go set things right with your neighbor and only then you can return and continue with your plead. It means that there is no forgiveness from God if we first don't get it from whom we have offended.

There seems to be a slight flaw here. But, not insurmountable. There could be many occasions where it is impossible for one to seek forgiveness of the harmed. But that would be covered by intention and change of actions to show.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 19th, 2014, 02:57 PM
But does He have free will?

Posted from the TOL App!

God does not have any thing. He is what He is. What one has can be taken away; what one is he is no matter what. We are the ones who have what is in us because any thing we have is limited, if not by death by our natural limitations. Not so with the Lord.

Ben Masada
May 19th, 2014, 03:04 PM
But it was stated many times that all offences are against God first. Highlight King David.

Posted from the TOL App!

God cannot be offended. Who are we to offend God. Any reference in the Scriptures to offenses against God is only from the pious point of view to enhance homage to God's Law. Hence what Jesus implied when one comes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness. He said to stop every thing and go get forgiveness first from whom we have offended. Otherwise, God won't even listen to your prayer. (Mat. 5:23,24)

journey
May 20th, 2014, 12:18 AM
God cannot be offended. Who are we to offend God. Any reference in the Scriptures to offenses against God is only from the pious point of view to enhance homage to God's Law. Hence what Jesus implied when one comes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness. He said to stop every thing and go get forgiveness first from whom we have offended. Otherwise, God won't even listen to your prayer. (Mat. 5:23,24)

Ephesians 4:25-32 KJV Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

beloved57
May 20th, 2014, 03:58 AM
God cannot be offended. Who are we to offend God. Any reference in the Scriptures to offenses against God is only from the pious point of view to enhance homage to God's Law. Hence what Jesus implied when one comes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness. He said to stop every thing and go get forgiveness first from whom we have offended. Otherwise, God won't even listen to your prayer. (Mat. 5:23,24)

Was God offended at the jews who worshipped the golden calf ?

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2014, 02:36 PM
Ephesians 4:25-32 KJV Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

God is not like a man to be grieved by another. This is just to mean good social relations among men. (Isa. 46:5)

journey
May 20th, 2014, 03:09 PM
God is not like a man to be grieved by another. This is just to mean good social relations among men. (Isa. 46:5)

It appears that you have a reading comprehension problem. God is obviously offended when we sin against Him and break His commandments. Here's another passage for you:

Exodus 20:3-5 KJV Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

beloved57
May 20th, 2014, 04:10 PM
God is not like a man to be grieved by another. This is just to mean good social relations among men. (Isa. 46:5)

Was God offended at the jews who worshipped the golden calf ?

TimLutz
May 22nd, 2014, 04:14 AM
God cannot be offended. Who are we to offend God. Any reference in the Scriptures to offenses against God is only from the pious point of view to enhance homage to God's Law. Hence what Jesus implied when one comes to the Temple to plead for forgiveness. He said to stop every thing and go get forgiveness first from whom we have offended. Otherwise, God won't even listen to your prayer. (Mat. 5:23,24)

Still many problems with depending upon this.
If the person will not forgive. Then have you done enough? And could it happen that they are just saying you are forgiven to get you out of their face. Guess it would put you in the same boat as another legalistic religion, Islam. Where even Mohammed said he could not know his final destination.

Posted from the TOL App!

Ben Masada
May 24th, 2014, 03:48 PM
It appears that you have a reading comprehension problem. God is obviously offended when we sin against Him and break His commandments. Here's another passage for you:

Exodus 20:3-5 KJV Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Pious references to enhance the power of religion. Jealousy and hatred are emotions. One needs to be corporeal to exercise emotions. This of fighting back if one deserts the club is not of God but of man. God is so much higher than that! According to the great Philosopher Spinoza, this is no different from bringing God down to the level of man.

Ben Masada
May 24th, 2014, 03:56 PM
Still many problems with depending upon this. If the person will not forgive. Then have you done enough? And could it happen that they are just saying you are forgiven to get you out of their face. Guess it would put you in the same boat as another legalistic religion, Islam. Where even Mohammed said he could not know his final destination.

Posted from the TOL App!

Usually, the denial of forgiveness is related to restitution involved in the offense. So, we have no option but to return what we owe. Hard but that's the way to get forgiveness if we want to be forgiven.

journey
May 24th, 2014, 11:36 PM
Pious references to enhance the power of religion. Jealousy and hatred are emotions. One needs to be corporeal to exercise emotions. This of fighting back if one deserts the club is not of God but of man. God is so much higher than that! According to the great Philosopher Spinoza, this is no different from bringing God down to the level of man.

More baloney. I suspect that you'll learn something about God's righteous and holy wrath some day, but it will be too late for you.

TimLutz
May 25th, 2014, 03:26 AM
Usually, the denial of forgiveness is related to restitution involved in the offense. So, we have no option but to return what we owe. Hard but that's the way to get forgiveness if we want to be forgiven.

Really are surprised on your pick choose of scriptures. The New Testament works for you as long as it is not Paul. And much of the Old Testament is also written off. Was shocked to see you pull from Isaiah. Since that is know for all it's references to the Messiah. And is know as the fifth gospel. Sin debt to God is tossed out. And you claim that you do not live by faith in God since you cannot prove Him. And Grace is part of God's abundant daily gifts to us. Where we do not own our next breath. Seems you found your comfort zone. Just how many have found your way?

Posted from the TOL App!

bsmitts
May 25th, 2014, 03:50 AM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.



Thank you sir. This is very kind of you to put this here

Ben Masada
May 27th, 2014, 01:46 PM
Really are surprised on your pick choose of scriptures. The New Testament works for you as long as it is not Paul. And much of the Old Testament is also written off. Was shocked to see you pull from Isaiah. Since that is know for all it's references to the Messiah. And is know as the fifth gospel. Sin debt to God is tossed out. And you claim that you do not live by faith in God since you cannot prove Him. And Grace is part of God's abundant daily gifts to us. Where we do not own our next breath. Seems you found your comfort zone. Just how many have found your way?

Posted from the TOL App!

Eleven that I know of; that I don't, God does. Eleven souls have embraced Judaism as a result of my works in the name of the Lord.

Indeed, 80% of the NT is written off because it is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. However, 20% of the NT either from Jesus or about him is indeed worth learning something from. Perhaps because Jesus was a honorable Jew whose Faith was Judaism which was the gospel he preached. (Mat. 5:17-19)

I can prove God but by Logic if you want but not by faith. Nothing can be proved by faith. Only death can be proved as a result of being faithful. Have you forgotten what happened to the faithful of Jim Jones? Almost a thousand got killed for walking by faith and not by sight. (II Cor. 5:7)

Yishae
July 18th, 2014, 08:26 PM
I liked this :)

Ben Masada
July 20th, 2014, 08:18 AM
I liked this :)

I am surprised. As a Christian, I thought you would stand against this. Five of them were from the Seventh-Day Adventist church.

Yishae
July 20th, 2014, 12:13 PM
I am surprised. As a Christian, I thought you would stand against this. Five of them were from the Seventh-Day Adventist church.

Okay?

Ben Masada
July 21st, 2014, 06:56 AM
Okay?

To me yes, more than okay. I didn't expect it would be okay with you.

Yishae
July 21st, 2014, 12:18 PM
To me yes, more than okay. I didn't expect it would be okay with you.

okay.

Ben Masada
August 18th, 2014, 06:07 AM
[quote]Really are surprised on your pick choose of scriptures.

If one is able to do that, it is evidence that the NT contradicts itself in many places. No wonder there are so many different branches of Christians.


The New Testament works for you as long as it is not Paul.

20% of it there is, probably because they missed a few Jewish items to write them off at the end of the canon process.


And much of the Old Testament is also written off.

I don't think so. Probably you don't understand metaphorical language and get the impression that some thing has been written off.


Was shocked to see you pull from Isaiah. Since that is know for all it's references to the Messiah. And is know as the fifth gospel.

As a matter of fact Isaiah refers to the Messiah but the Suffering Servant identified as Israel if you read Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21.


Sin debt to God is tossed out. And you claim that you do not live by faith in God since you cannot prove Him.

I live by the knowledge of God since I can prove Him; and mind you, by means of the concepts of Logic and Causality.


And Grace is part of God's abundant daily gifts to us.

You can say that again. With life and all that comes along. No wonder Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews. (John 4:22)


Where we do not own our next breath. Seems you found your comfort zone. Just how many have found your way?

Eleven that I am aware of. That I don't know, God does.

Omniskeptical
October 12th, 2014, 02:09 PM
No wonder Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.The salvation was from the Judai. But also from God.

Ben Masada
October 16th, 2014, 12:19 PM
The salvation was from the Judai. But also from God.

Yes, from God through the Jews. That's what Jesus meant. (John 4:22) Israel was created to serve as the pledge to guarantee God's promise of universal salvation to Noah. (Gen. 8:21,22)

beloved57
October 16th, 2014, 01:26 PM
Yes, from God through the Jews. That's what Jesus meant. (John 4:22) Israel was created to serve as the pledge to guarantee God's promise of universal salvation to Noah. (Gen. 8:21,22)

national Israel Abrahams physical descendants of the flesh are not the Children of God Israel Rom 9:8 !

Ben Masada
October 24th, 2014, 11:45 AM
God's plan of salvation was for universal salvation from universal catastrophes. God's plan of personal salvation has been all along in the Tanach reported by Isaiah 1:18,19 where it says that to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need to do is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law that Jesus came to confirm down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)

Aimiel
March 14th, 2015, 05:53 AM
God's plan of salvation was for universal salvation from universal catastrophes. God's plan of personal salvation has been all along in the Tanach reported by Isaiah 1:18,19 where it says that to set things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need to do is to repent and return to the obedience of God's Law that Jesus came to confirm down to the letter. (Mat. 5:17-19)We need help though, since the wages of sin is death. That sentence has not been revoked unless we have died to pay it. Being Christian means that we have been crucified for our sins and paid the debt we owed and are alive forevermore in Christ. Without His Blood there is no forgiveness for sin.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Aimiel
March 14th, 2015, 06:29 AM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.Amen. :thumb:

beloved57
March 14th, 2015, 07:46 AM
The most important question that anyone will ever be required to answer in life is the same question that will determine the true quality to which that life can be lived for all eternity. The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" The answer to this one question will determine eternity for you. The question is not, "Are you a good person?" or, "Do you go to church?" Or even, "Do you have a knowledge that Jesus Christ lived and died?" The question is, "Have you accepted God’s gift of salvation?" If you have, then you are free from the debt of sin and will enjoy eternity in a loving relationship with the God of all creation. If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences. God is a gentleman and will not force anyone to live with Him. He has given us the free choice to accept and love Him, or to reject and be apart from Him.

Who needs the gift
The Bible tells us that everyone is in need of God’s great mercy: Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

A price to be paid
The debt, or price of sin, is separation from God who is holy. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death…"

Payment in full
But God is loving and wants to have fellowship with His children. Like any good father, He does not want us to die. However, He is a just God and could not simply pretend that we had never sinned and allow us to go free without the debt being paid. So He made a way for us to come back into union with Him, and still maintain justice so that the debt is paid in full. God Himself paid our price, not with the wink of an eye, but with His own blood. Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Salvation
However, a gift, no matter how great and wonderful, is useless if it is not accepted. In order to benefit from God’s sacrifice for us, you must accept the gift. The Bible states: Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Putting it all together
The choice is as simple as it is vital. Humble yourself before God and admit that you are a sinner. Tell God that you realize that the price for your debt is death, but that you accept His gift and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for your (personal) sins. Tell Him that you believe that He raised Jesus from the dead, showing that you also will be raised. Then thank Him. What a wonderful Father. He made the entire universe, the billions of stars and planets and galaxies. He constructed the incredible complexity of the human brain. He holds all of creation together by the power of His spoken Word. That He would be willing to come to us, to be humbled and beaten and spit upon and even to suffer the death of the cross, for you and me, that is a God to love. A God to thank and to praise forever and ever. How wonderful is His name.

This is salvation by works by what a man does!

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 01:47 PM
This is salvation by works by what a man does!

Of course! Salvation is not free. The only salvation that's free is universal salvation that comes from the Jews according to Jesus in John 4:22.

beloved57
March 14th, 2015, 02:10 PM
Of course! Salvation is not free. The only salvation that's free is universal salvation that comes from the Jews according to Jesus in John 4:22.

You believe in golden calf worship, that is idolatry!

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 02:11 PM
We need help though, since the wages of sin is death. That sentence has not been revoked unless we have died to pay it. Being Christian means that we have been crucified for our sins and paid the debt we owed and are alive forevermore in Christ. Without His Blood there is no forgiveness for sin.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The wages of sin is not death. Thousands of babies die every day and none of them has committed a single sin. We die because we have been born. Death is only the 3rd phase of birth, life and death. As you can see, I have just revoked that sentence with my sword called Logic; a sword that no one can refute.

Jesus did not shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins. The reason why he was crucified was due to sedition whose verdict INRI was nailed on the top of his cross. Besides, according to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20, no one can die for the sins of another.

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2015, 02:14 PM
You believe in golden calf worship, that is idolatry!

No, but I am sure you do as you believe that Jesus was sacrificed and since calves were crucified, you have implied that Jesus was a calf.

Omniskeptical
March 15th, 2015, 12:22 PM
The wages of sin is not death. Thousands of babies die every day and none of them has committed a single sin. We die because we have been born. Death is only the 3rd phase of birth, life and death. As you can see, I have just revoked that sentence with my sword called Logic; a sword that no one can refute.

Jesus did not shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins. The reason why he was crucified was due to sedition whose verdict INRI was nailed on the top of his cross. Besides, according to Jeremiah 31:30 and Ezekiel 18:20, no one can die for the sins of another.
Some wages of a sin is death, actually. Then you have the gall to slander Jesus. The charge was being king of Jews, which Pilate didn't even take seriously. INRI is not the charge in any known historical accounts. Perhaps Constatine's mom found a cross a one which thought to be his.

Sedition was a common crime committed by the authorities during this period.

Aimiel
March 16th, 2015, 04:15 AM
I still believe that, "Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews," was the acronym that was put on the sign nailed to the cross: "JHVH."

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 09:15 AM
Jesus did not shed his blood for the forgiveness of our sins.

Why are you here, an antichrist? What do you have to say that you would expect a Christian has any use for?

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 01:12 PM
I still believe that, "Jesus of Nazareth, King of Jews," was the acronym that was put on the sign nailed to the cross: "JHVH."

It means you don't even believe your own Bible aka the NT. (Luke 23:38)

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 01:27 PM
Some wages of a sin is death, actually. Then you have the gall to slander Jesus. The charge was being king of Jews, which Pilate didn't even take seriously. INRI is not the charge in any known historical accounts. Perhaps Constatine's mom found a cross a one which thought to be his.

Sedition was a common crime committed by the authorities during this period.

But only in those countries that adopt the death sentence; and only if it is proved that it was pre-determined. Regarding slandering Jesus, Christians are the ones who slander him with being a Greek demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. I honor Jesus for what he was and not for what you guys make him to have been.

If Pilate was not serious about the charge of sedition on Jesus being acclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, why was he the one who decided for that verdict? (John 19:21) The crime of sedition was not really of Jesus but of his disciples acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem.(Luke 19:37-40)

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 01:32 PM
Why are you here, an antichrist? What do you have to say that you would expect a Christian has any use for?

No, and I have told you already. I am here to tell you the truth about Jesus which you refuse to hear. You prefer the contradiction to believe that he was a Jew who acted like a Greek. Anti-Christs are supposed to come out of the Christian church itself, if you read I John 2:18,19.

WonderfulLordJesus
March 16th, 2015, 01:41 PM
No, and I have told you already. I am here to tell you the truth about Jesus which you refuse to hear. You prefer the contradiction to believe that he was a Jew who acted like a Greek. Anti-Christs are supposed to come out of the Christian church itself, if you read I John 2:18,19.

Do you make this stuff up as you go along, or are you parroting some whackjob's website? I was going to ask, "Polly want a cracker?", but was unsure.

You really should avoid scripture, actually all theology, as you're humiliating yourself. But I am very curious if you've ever contemplated what makes you so desperate for any kind of attention?

Ben Masada
March 16th, 2015, 02:09 PM
Do you make this stuff up as you go along, or are you parroting some whackjob's website? I was going to ask, "Polly want a cracker?", but was unsure.

You really should avoid scripture, actually all theology, as you're humiliating yourself. But I am very curious if you've ever contemplated what makes you so desperate for any kind of attention?

No sir, a Jew does not need to read a book every day for ten years or appeal to authorities to give answers about that book. Three times is enough.

Omniskeptical
March 17th, 2015, 02:45 AM
But only in those countries that adopt the death sentence; and only if it is proved that it was pre-determined. Regarding slandering Jesus, Christians are the ones who slander him with being a Greek demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. I honor Jesus for what he was and not for what you guys make him to have been.

If Pilate was not serious about the charge of sedition on Jesus being acclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province, why was he the one who decided for that verdict? (John 19:21) The crime of sedition was not really of Jesus but of his disciples acclaiming him king of the Jews at the entrance of Jerusalem.(Luke 19:37-40)Pilate was insulting the authorities. To be ruler of the Jews, is to be crucified. You don't know how insulting Pilate was.

Ben Masada
March 20th, 2015, 01:22 PM
Pilate was insulting the authorities. To be ruler of the Jews, is to be crucified. You don't know how insulting Pilate was.

And who was to blame for the insult to Pilate, the People or his own disciples? The disciples if you read Luke 19:37-40. So, why charge the Jews with having crucified Jesus? (Acts 2:36)

Omniskeptical
March 22nd, 2015, 10:44 PM
And who was to blame for the insult to Pilate, the People or his own disciples? The disciples if you read Luke 19:37-40. So, why charge the Jews with having crucified Jesus? (Acts 2:36)
The verb is actually present aorist. Israel is then crucifying Jesus after the fact. And the stones would have cried out if the pharisee, who aren't even related to Rabbinical Judaism, killed him.

Can we say the House of Israel, the elders were not obeying God?

Omniskeptical
March 22nd, 2015, 10:48 PM
And who was to blame for the insult to Pilate, the People or his own disciples?Pilate was the one implying being king of the Jews was enough punishment. It was easy for Pilate to forgive any Judahite insults, because he knew their talk was cheap. They didn't obey Rome, and the Romans out-numbered them.

Ben Masada
March 23rd, 2015, 03:21 PM
The verb is actually present aorist. Israel is then crucifying Jesus after the fact. And the stones would have cried out if the pharisee, who aren't even related to Rabbinical Judaism, killed him.

Can we say the House of Israel, the elders were not obeying God?

This is an anti-Semitic accusation. The Jews had absolutely nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was crucified on a political charge of sedition against Rome. Hence his verdict INRI.

Ben Masada
March 23rd, 2015, 03:23 PM
Pilate was the one implying being king of the Jews was enough punishment. It was easy for Pilate to forgive any Judahite insults, because he knew their talk was cheap. They didn't obey Rome, and the Romans out-numbered them.

But the Jews were not anti-Semite. Rather those who wrote against them were so.

Omniskeptical
March 23rd, 2015, 04:02 PM
This is an anti-Semitic accusation. The Jews had absolutely nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was crucified on a political charge of sedition against Rome. Hence his verdict INRI.No, the verdict was king of the Judeans. This was Pilate's version of the crime.

Omniskeptical
March 23rd, 2015, 04:04 PM
But the Jews were not anti-Semite. Rather those who wrote against them were so.Bold faced lies. The Jews weren't the only Israelites. What happened to the southern Israelite army? Plaigarism by deletion is what I call your people's account.

OCTOBER23
March 23rd, 2015, 04:09 PM
If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity

burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences.
================================================

=B A L O N E Y=

YOU ARE TOO JUDGMENTAL AND CONDEMNING

AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES

Shibolet
March 30th, 2015, 02:33 PM
If you decide not to accept God’s gift, then you will spend eternity burdened with the debt of your sin and all of its horrible consequences.

=B A L O N E Y=

YOU ARE TOO JUDGMENTAL AND CONDEMNING

AND DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE SCRIPTURES

Two points here I would like to share with you: First, how could you talk about eternity as mortals are concerned? One who is born and dies can never be eternal. That's why the reason given for the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23)

The second point is what you talk about the "debt of one's sin" when Isaiah implies with 1:18,19 that there is no pending debt when one repents of his transgression to the Law and returns to its obedience. Can you add some more to clarify what you really have in mind about sin and eternity? So far, it is not making much sense.

journey
March 31st, 2015, 05:53 PM
Two points here I would like to share with you: First, how could you talk about eternity as mortals are concerned? One who is born and dies can never be eternal. That's why the reason given for the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23)

The second point is what you talk about the "debt of one's sin" when Isaiah implies with 1:18,19 that there is no pending debt when one repents of his transgression to the Law and returns to its obedience. Can you add some more to clarify what you really have in mind about sin and eternity? So far, it is not making much sense.

There are many more, but here's a couple of samples:

Romans 5:21 KJV That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Shibolet
April 1st, 2015, 12:17 PM
There are many more, but here's a couple of samples:

Romans 5:21 KJV That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you don't mind, I would like to remind you that sin cannot reign unto death because babies die when they have never committed a single sin. They die because they were born and that goes for all human beings.

The gift of God cannot be eternal life because the attribute of eternity could not be shared with man as only God is eternal. Hence, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden because they could not eat of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23) How could the Lord Himself contradict His His own Word?

jamie
April 1st, 2015, 02:07 PM
The second point is what you talk about the "debt of one's sin" when Isaiah implies with 1:18,19 that there is no pending debt when one repents of his transgression to the Law and returns to its obedience.


What then was the point of the atonement?


And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests and for all the people of the congregation. And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. (Leviticus 16:33-34)

journey
April 1st, 2015, 05:35 PM
If you don't mind, I would like to remind you that sin cannot reign unto death because babies die when they have never committed a single sin. They die because they were born and that goes for all human beings.

The gift of God cannot be eternal life because the attribute of eternity could not be shared with man as only God is eternal. Hence, Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden because they could not eat of the tree of life and live forever. (Gen. 3:22,23) How could the Lord Himself contradict His His own Word?

Wrong. Christians do not spend eternal life in this body of flesh and bones, rather in a glorified body provided by God at His appointed time. If I physically die today, my spirit is absent from the body and present with the Lord. You deny that Jesus Christ is God, so we really have nothing in common to talk about. Start by reading the New Testament, especially the Epistles of Paul.

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 02:00 PM
What then was the point of the atonement?


And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests and for all the people of the congregation. And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. (Leviticus 16:33-34)

All these atonements were shadows for the final atonement of the Scapegoat which would be Israel for Judah. It was all symbolized in Psalm 78:67-69 when the Lord Divinely rejected Israel the kingdom of the North so that Judah be Divinely confirmed to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) That's when lots were thrown between Israel and Judah and the decision fell upon Israel to atone for Judah because the Lord had promised David that his Tribe aka Judah would remain as God's People. (I Kings 11:36)

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 02:07 PM
Wrong. Christians do not spend eternal life in this body of flesh and bones, rather in a glorified body provided by God at His appointed time. If I physically die today, my spirit is absent from the body and present with the Lord. You deny that Jesus Christ is God, so we really have nothing in common to talk about. Start by reading the New Testament, especially the Epistles of Paul.

I think I read the NT more than you do. Otherwise, how could I challenge Christians if I have not read their book? But believe me, I wouldn't be here if I had not found out in the NT that the Pauline method to replace the Jewish Theology by using a Jew was not the foundation of the NT. It just happens that no one has what it takes to persuade me of the contrary.

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 02:29 PM
That's when lots were thrown between Israel and Judah and the decision fell upon Israel to atone for Judah...


Christ is the Azazel who atoned for God's firstborn son so that all Israel can be saved.


And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob, for this is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:26-27)

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 02:46 PM
Christ is the Azazel who atoned for God's firstborn son so that all Israel can be saved.


And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob, for this is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins. (Romans 11:26-27)

Christ is a Greek word which means the anointed one of the Lord aka the Messiah. (Habak. 3:13) "To go to azazel" is an analogy with "to go to hell." Literally, azazel was meant to be the desert. The end of the desert eastward was Assyria. When Israel was Divinely rejected he was conquered by the Assyrians and transferred to Assyria and from there they got lost for good. Only 10% of Israel was saved when they joined Judah in the South. That's it. There is no more "shall be saved." They are lost forever. Today, to join Judah they must convert just like any of the Gentiles.

No one can take the sins of another away but only the sinner himself when he or she repents and returns to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19; Ezek. 18:20)

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 03:19 PM
"To go to azazel" is an analogy with "to go to hell."



For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

The Azazel wasn't killed by man, he was let go to his place in the wilderness.


And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.

And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited, and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

The wilderness refers to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave. No one lives there.

Shibolet
April 2nd, 2015, 03:51 PM
1 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

2 - The Azazel wasn't killed by man, he was let go to his place in the wilderness.

3 - And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.

4 - And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited, and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

The wilderness refers to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave. No one lives there.

1 - No Jamie, you did not understand me. "To go to hell" is a similar statement akin to get rid of some one or some thing.

2 - Exactly!

3 - Since Israel was the Scapegoat, he was banished to azazel towards the East to atone for the sins of Judah aka the new Israel.

4 - This atonement was not meant physical death but only a Divine rejection to last forever. (Psalm 78:67-69) The physical death happened only in the type level of the analogy with the animals. But in the archetype level, the Scapegoat did not have to be bloodily sacrificed. BTW, another analogy was in the binding of Isaac. Only the binding as there was no real sacrifice but of the ram caught in the bush.

jamie
April 2nd, 2015, 05:32 PM
They shall come with weeping and with supplications will I lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way wherein they shall not stumble for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations and declare it in the isles afar off and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him and keep him as a shepherd doth his flock." (Jeremiah 31:9-10)

"Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him I do earnestly remember him still, therefore my bowels are troubled for him, I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:20)

journey
April 3rd, 2015, 04:31 AM
I think I read the NT more than you do. Otherwise, how could I challenge Christians if I have not read their book? But believe me, I wouldn't be here if I had not found out in the NT that the Pauline method to replace the Jewish Theology by using a Jew was not the foundation of the NT. It just happens that no one has what it takes to persuade me of the contrary.

You need to read it again because you obviously don't understand or believe it. What you believe does not effect the reality of Jesus Christ and the Cross. Jesus Christ was and is God, the Messiah. Jesus Christ died on the Cross for the sins of mankind so that Salvation could be offered as a precious GIFT for those who believe and have faith. This is what God's Word bluntly teaches, so what you deny is not material to REALITY.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

jamie
April 3rd, 2015, 07:04 AM
And the LORD God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22)

What more needs to be said?

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 12:49 PM
They shall come with weeping and with supplications will I lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way wherein they shall not stumble for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations and declare it in the isles afar off and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him and keep him as a shepherd doth his flock." (Jeremiah 31:9-10)

"Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him I do earnestly remember him still, therefore my bowels are troubled for him, I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:20)

And all the above had its fulfillment in Ezekiel 37:22 when the Lord gathered under the same flock about 10% of Ephraim that escaped from Assyria and joined Judah in the South when both peoples became one only kingdom and, with them aka the House of Israel and the House of Judah the Lord established His New Covenant. (Jer. 31:31)

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 01:02 PM
You need to read it again because you obviously don't understand or believe it. What you believe does not effect the reality of Jesus Christ and the Cross. Jesus Christ was and is God, the Messiah. Jesus Christ died on the Cross for the sins of mankind so that Salvation could be offered as a precious GIFT for those who believe and have faith. This is what God's Word bluntly teaches, so what you deny is not material to REALITY.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The differences between our realities is that yours is not Jewish, albeit you are using a Jew to promote it. Your reality is based on the Greek reality of Hellenism and mine is based on the Faith of Jesus which was Judaism.

You have quoted above the gospel of Paul which was Hellenistic. It doesn't go with the Jewish reality of the Faith of Jesus.

You have quoted I Cor. 15:1-4 and I have a question about the last verse: It says that Jesus rose according to the Scriptures. What Scriptures if the NT was written 50+ years after Jesus had been gone? It must be the Jewish Scriptures. If so, would you be able to quote to me where in the Jewish Scriptures I can read that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day? If you have an answer to me, I will take my hat off and pay homage to your understanding which is indeed superior to mine.

Shibolet
April 3rd, 2015, 01:05 PM
And the LORD God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us to know good and evil..." (Genesis 3:22)

What more needs to be said?

To banish man from the Garden of Eden so that he would not eat from the tree of life and live forever. Did you miss that in the same verse? That's the reason why no one can have eternal life.

Ben Masada
April 25th, 2015, 03:11 PM
They shall come with weeping and with supplications will I lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way wherein they shall not stumble for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations and declare it in the isles afar off and say, "He that scattered Israel will gather him and keep him as a shepherd doth his flock." (Jeremiah 31:9-10)

"Is Ephraim my dear son? Is he a pleasant child? For since I spake against him I do earnestly remember him still, therefore my bowels are troubled for him, I will surely have mercy upon him," saith the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:20)

But it had to be either Judah or Israel. Both had rejected God's Covenant made with them, and the Lord had promised David that He would keep his Tribe as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) So, lots were cast over the two goats and Israel was the one chosen as the Scapegoat to make atonement for Judah so that he could remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) So, Israel was taken to Assyria on an endless exile and Judah to Babylon for 70 years. At the end of those 70 years, the whole Land of Israel became of Judah only and up to this day. (Ezek. 37:22)

Omniskeptical
July 16th, 2015, 11:46 AM
But it had to be either Judah or Israel. Both had rejected God's Covenant made with them, and the Lord had promised David that He would keep his Tribe as a lamp in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36) So, lots were cast over the two goats and Israel was the one chosen as the Scapegoat to make atonement for Judah so that he could remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) So, Israel was taken to Assyria on an endless exile and Judah to Babylon for 70 years. At the end of those 70 years, the whole Land of Israel became of Judah only and up to this day. (Ezek. 37:22)Bull crap. Israel would not be assimilated by the will of God. Your hypothesis (and that is all it is) is obsurd.

Ben Masada
November 3rd, 2015, 12:20 PM
There are two kinds of salvation: Universal salvation and personal salvation. Universal salvation is of universal catastrophes of the size of the Flood.

Soon after the Flood, the Lord planned future salvation by promising Noah that never again He would allow universal destruction of almost the whole of Mankind. (Gen. 8:21,22) This kind of salvation is free and the kind of salvation Jesus spoke of as coming from the Jews. (John 4:22) If there had been at least a Minyan of ten adult Jews on earth before the Flood, this would not have happened. Evidence? If there had been a Minyan of ten Jews on earth at the time of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, this would not have happened.
(Gen. 18:32)

Now, for personal salvation, that's not free and it is subject to our Freewill based on the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus himself said once that if someone goes into the Temple to plead for salvation and all of a sudden is reminded that he or she has an issue with someone else, he or she must leave all behind and go first to set things right with our neighbor and then to return to the Temple. Otherwise, personal salvation is never achieved. (Mat. 5:23,24)

beloved57
November 5th, 2015, 04:42 AM
Is there golden calf worship and salvation?

Ben Masada
March 7th, 2016, 01:27 AM
1 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psalm 16:10)

2 - The Azazel wasn't killed by man, he was let go to his place in the wilderness.

3 - And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat and Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.

4 - And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited, and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:20-22)

The wilderness refers to an uninhabited place. The ultimate uninhabited place is the grave. No one lives there.

1 - In other words: "For thou will not leave myself in hell. "My soul" and "Myself" is one and the same. When the Lord formed man from the dust of the earth He breathed into the nostrils of man and he become a living soul. (Gen. 2:7) To become is to be and not to have. Therefore, we are; we don't have.

2 - And "to his place" in the wilderness is a reference to Israel being taken to Assyria Eastward through the desert into an endless exile forever. That's when the Lord rejected the Tabernacle of Joseph and confirmed Judah to remain in Jerusalem as a People before the Lord forever. (Psalm 78:67-70)

3 - "End of reconciliation" means the exile of Israel to Assyria was forever. Israel would never be a people again or an independent kingdom. (Ezek. 37:22) The live goat was Judah, confirmed to become one only People forever. (Psalm. 78:67-70)

4 - To Assyria. That's where Israel was sent to forever.

5 - The ultimate uninhabited place is an embellishment for the realm of the grave.

Ben Masada
March 7th, 2016, 01:38 AM
Bull crap. Israel would not be assimilated by the will of God. Your hypothesis (and that is all it is) is obsurd.

Nevertheless it was. Read Ezekiel 37:22.

Ben Masada
March 7th, 2016, 01:45 AM
Is there golden calf worship and salvation?

No, just as there wasn't when Christianity formed an image of Jesus and Mary to worship. Read Deuteronomy 4:15-19.

Nihilo
March 7th, 2016, 02:03 AM
No, just as there wasn't when Christianity formed an image of Jesus and Mary to worship. Read Deuteronomy 4:15-19.So you're suggesting that the Holy Catholic and Holy Orthodox churches are equivalent to Aaron's golden-calf pagans? Your ancestors were pagans. Either One of the paganisms is authentic (which is the necessary corollary to there being a Maker), or none of them are, and they're all hokey. There are many of your brethren who believe the latter, though there are many who keep that ancient faith. I still am not sure which camp in which you dwell.

If there is a Maker, then we needs examine the extant paganisms/religions. If not, then we do not. So, collectively, we ought heed Pascal and his wager. If there is a Maker, then we must examine the paganisms. If [and perhaps only if] there is a Maker, then and only then He is the One responsible for the Holy Catholic Church.

If there is no Maker, then the Catholic Church is a scam. Otherwise, this (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm) is His.

By the way I like you a lot, and I have been observing you for quite some time.

beloved57
March 7th, 2016, 02:31 AM
No, just as there wasn't when Christianity formed an image of Jesus and Mary to worship. Read Deuteronomy 4:15-19.
Do you worship the golden calf as god?

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 01:00 AM
So you're suggesting that the Holy Catholic and Holy Orthodox churches are equivalent to Aaron's golden-calf pagans?

There is absolutely no difference between the worshiping of an irrational animal and another human being as if they were gods. Read Deuteronomy 4:15,16.


Your ancestors were pagans.

And how do I have any thing to do with it? The Prophets of the Most High declare that the children have nothing to do with the sins of their fathers. Only the one who sins shall be punished. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)


Either One of the paganisms is authentic (which is the necessary corollary to there being a Maker), or none of them are, and they're all hokey. There are many of your brethren who believe the latter, though there are many who keep that ancient faith. I still am not sure which camp in which you dwell.

If you are implying that the Almighty was not the Maker aka He Who caused the universe to exist, who did it? Unless you believe that the universe caused itself to exist? What's your point of view on the matter?


If there is a Maker, then we needs examine the extant paganisms/religions. If not, then we do not. So, collectively, we ought heed Pascal and his wager. If there is a Maker, then we must examine the paganisms. If [and perhaps only if there is a Maker, then and only then He is the One responsible for the Holy Catholic Church.

Tell me, Nihilo, do you exist? If you do, you are yourself all the evidence I needed if I had to prove the existence of God. Otherwise, you caused yourself to exist but, to cause yourself to exist, you had to exist first but, if you existed, you did not have to further cause yourself to exist. It means you have no other option but to fit yourself into the concept of Causality which had its beginning with the Primal Maker though not having been caused to exist.

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 01:12 AM
Do you worship the golden calf as god?

No, didn't you read my reply above?

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 01:17 AM
The jews did. They believed that God was a golden calf!

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 04:03 AM
The jews did. They believed that God was a golden calf!

Every one in the whole world knows that the Jews are much more intelligent than that. You should read about them. A good source is found with Mark Twain in his Essay about the Jews. Have you ever read it? You need. It is only an Essay. If you would like to read it, let me know and I'll post it here for your eyes only.

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 04:06 AM
Every one in the whole world knows that the Jews are much more intelligent than that. You should read about them. A good source is found with Mark Twain in his Essay about the Jews. Have you ever read it? You need. It is only an Essay. If you would like to read it, let me know and I'll post it here for your eyes only.
I know the jews during Aaron's and Moses day thought God was a golden calf, it is in the scriptures.

Nihilo
April 7th, 2016, 11:06 AM
There is absolutely no difference between the worshiping of an irrational animal and another human being as if they were gods. Read Deuteronomy 4:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deut%204.15),16 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Deuteronomy%204.16).So? Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox churches worship either.

And how do I have any thing to do with it? The Prophets of the Most High declare that the children have nothing to do with the sins of their fathers. Only the one who sins shall be punished. (Jer. 31:30 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Jer.%2031.30); Ezek. 18:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Ezek.%2018.20))My point was that all religions are paganisms. The ancient Jewish faith was the authentic paganism, because it and it alone was the one paganism begun and sustained by our Maker.

If you are implying that the Almighty was not the Maker aka He Who caused the universe to exist, who did it? Unless you believe that the universe caused itself to exist? What's your point of view on the matter?I believe in our Maker. He is the One Who called Moses, and Who communicated with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And He became flesh (John 1:14) and inaugurated the Church (Matthew 16:18).

Tell me, Nihilo, do you exist? If you do, you are yourself all the evidence I needed if I had to prove the existence of God. Otherwise, you caused yourself to exist but, to cause yourself to exist, you had to exist first but, if you existed, you did not have to further cause yourself to exist. It means you have no other option but to fit yourself into the concept of Causality which had its beginning with the Primal Maker though not having been caused to exist.I'm glad we both believe in our Maker.

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 10:57 PM
I know the jews during Aaron's and Moses day thought God was a golden calf, it is in the scriptures.

Oh! I am glad I am having a conversation with someone who knows the Jews of the time of Moses. I have never met one.

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 10:59 PM
Oh! I am glad I am having a conversation with someone who knows the Jews of the time of Moses. I have never met one.
You don't believe the scripture

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 11:16 PM
[quote]So? Neither the Catholic nor the Orthodox churches worship either.

All acts of kneeling before the statue of a human being or animal is a pagan act of idolatry.


My point was that all religions are paganisms. The ancient Jewish faith was the authentic paganism, because it and it alone was the one paganism begun and sustained by our Maker.

Are you implying that Jesus was a pagan? He was a Jew and he taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. How do you explain that otherwise?


I believe in our Maker. He is the One Who called Moses, and Who communicated with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And He became flesh (John 1:14) and inaugurated the Church (Matthew 16:18).
I'm glad we both believe in our Maker.

I believe that HaShem is All-Powerful to do any thing He wants but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. I mean by this that He did not become flesh in Jesus as it would be a pagan act of blasphemy if you read Isaiah 46:5. Regarding the Christian Church, I have already told you before that Jesus never had any thing to do with Christianity. He never even dreamed that Paul would ever found that church. (Acts 11:26)

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 11:21 PM
You don't believe the scripture

Try me. What is it that I don't believe in the scriptures? I am referring to the Scriptures that Jesus always referred to as the Word of God aka the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise. I bet you didn't know that, did you?

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 11:23 PM
Try me. What is it that I don't believe in the scriptures? I am referring to the Scriptures that Jesus always referred to as the Word of God aka the Tanach. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise. I bet you didn't know that, did you?
That the jews during Aaron's and Moses day thought God was a golden calf

Ben Masada
April 7th, 2016, 11:26 PM
That the jews during Aaron's and Moses day thought God was a golden calf

That's not what I asked. You are simply trying to vandalize the discussion and that's not good for inter-faith understanding.

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 11:27 PM
That's not what I asked. You are simply trying to vandalize the discussion and that's not good for inter-faith understanding.
You don't believe the scripture

Ben Masada
April 10th, 2016, 04:44 AM
I believe Jesus is who says he is, and that God raised him from the dead, for my salvation.

I accept, without any qualifiers. Thank you Jesus.

Sorry Nick but, you are setting Jesus up for a contradiction. I am sure you not only know that Jesus was a Jew but also that you take pride in that he was. He knew as a Jew that the Jew, once dead will never return from the grave. It means he could not have said that God raised him from the dead because he knew it could
not be true. If you find this message too hard to be true, you can read "II Sam. 12:23; Isaiah 26:14 and Job 7:9." And when you say "for your salvation", you complicate things further. Why? Because Jesus himself
declared that salvation comes only by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. If you also find that hard to believe, read Luke 16:29-31.

Nick M
April 10th, 2016, 08:00 AM
Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

Nihilo
April 10th, 2016, 06:03 PM
All acts of kneeling before the statue of a human being or animal is a pagan act of idolatry.What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?

Are you implying that Jesus was a pagan? He was a Jew and he taught to listen to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. How do you explain that otherwise?The thing about Esau, the Scripture never comes out and says it, but Esau, and maybe his father Isaac too, since Esau apparently took after his father; at least, that's what I gather, from that Isaac preferred the food that Esau made for him, over Jacob's offerings; the thing about Esau is that he's just not that bright. It's not that Jacob was particularly clever. But Esau should have known that he'd be better off making his mother happy, than his father. It's how the prophecy came true: "The elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:23

I believe that HaShem is All-Powerful to do any thing He wants but one: The thing you wish He did or should have done. I mean by this that He did not become flesh in Jesus as it would be a pagan act of blasphemy if you read Isaiah 46:5. Regarding the Christian Church, I have already told you before that Jesus never had any thing to do with Christianity. He never even dreamed that Paul would ever found that church. (Acts 11:26)I believe that our Maker is the Trinity.

Ben Masada
April 11th, 2016, 01:04 AM
[COLOR="#0000CD"]Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

Hi Nick, I agree with you about the incident of Jonah, though not because it happened literally but because of Numbers 12:6. We read there instructions from HaShem with regards to His prophets. He said, "If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision and will speak to him in a dream. That's what happened to Jonah. He never even left his bedroom to take a sheep to Nineveh. It was all in a dream. To run away from his mission as a prophet, he went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish to hide himself from the Lord. Once in the ship, he went down, laid down and continued fast asleep while the dream proceeded. When he woke up, he considered his dream and took God's will for granted as Nineveh was concerned. Then, he went on with his prophetic mission; to Nineveh and Nineveh was saved. But, literally, he was never in the belly of the fish.

Ben Masada
April 11th, 2016, 01:16 AM
[COLOR="#0000CD"]Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. 2 And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice....10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

In fulfillment of the scriptures...

Hi Nick, I agree with you about the incident of Jonah, though not because it happened literally but because of Numbers 12:6. We read there instructions from HaShem with regards to His prophets. He said, "If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make Myself known to him in a vision and will speak to him in a vision. That's what happened to Jonah. He never even left his bedroom to take a sheep to Nineveh. It was all in a dream. To run away from his mission as a prophet, he went down to Joppa, took a ship to Tarshish to hide from the Lord. Once in the ship, he went down in the ship lay down and continued fast asleep while the dream proceed. When he woke up, he considered his dream and took God's will for granted as Nineveh was concerned. Then, he went one with his prophetic mission; went to Nineveh and Nineveh was saved. But, literally, he was never in the belly of the fish.

Ben Masada
April 11th, 2016, 01:24 AM
What is it called when your Temple is utterly ruined and ground into powder and you don't rebuild it for going on 2,000 years?
The thing about Esau, the Scripture never comes out and says it, but Esau, and maybe his father Isaac too, since Esau apparently took after his father; at least, that's what I gather, from that Isaac preferred the food that Esau made for him, over Jacob's offerings; the thing about Esau is that he's just not that bright. It's not that Jacob was particularly clever. But Esau should have known that he'd be better off making his mother happy, than his father. It's how the prophecy came true: "The elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:23
I believe that our Maker is the Trinity.

And now we part ways because I find too hard to fight against faith as faith is the worst enemy of Logic. Regardless, try to understand the Logic of the absolute Unity of HaShem. That's my attempt to reach for the help of Physics although faith
is still stronger.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.

Nihilo
April 11th, 2016, 10:00 AM
And now we part ways because I find too hard to fight against faith as faith is the worst enemy of Logic.No it's not. This is a cop-out.

Regardless, try to understand the Logic of the absolute Unity of HaShem. That's my attempt to reach for the help of Physics although faith
is still stronger.

The Absolute Oneness of God

Isaiah says that, absolutely, God cannot be compared with anyone or anything, as we read Isaiah 46:5. "To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal to , or compare Me with, that we may be alike?"

Therefore, more than one God would have been unable to produce the world; one would have impeded the work of the other, unless this could be avoided by a suitable division of labor.

More than one Divine Being would have one element in common, and would differ in another; each would thus consist of two elements, and would not be God.

More than one God are moved to action by will; the will, without a substratum, could not act simultaneously in more than one being.

Therefore, the existence of one God is proved; the existence of more than one God cannot be proved. One could suggest that it would be possible; but since as possibility is inapplicable to God, there does not exist more than one God. So, the possibility of ascertaining the existence of God is here confounded with potentiality of existence.

Again, if one God suffices, a second or third God would be superfluous; if one God is not sufficient, he is not perfect, and cannot be a deity.Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.

Now, besides being God absolutely One, He is incorporeal. If God were corporeal, He would consist of atoms, and would not be one; or he would be comparable to other beings; but a comparison implies the existence of similar and of dissimilar elements, and God would thus not be One. A corporeal God would be finite, and an external power would be required to define those limits.God is spirit.

Ben Masada
April 13th, 2016, 01:10 AM
No it's not. This is a cop-out.
Huge straw man fallacy since the Church does not believe in nor teach the belief in more than One Maker. He is the Trinity. Three Persons, One Maker.
God is spirit.

And after Jesus was gone, the Hellenist who wrote the gospel of Jesus said to baptize in the name of God the Father; God the son and God the Holy Spirit. (Mat. 28:19) Since God the Father is a Spirit according to John 4:24, He is the same as the Holy Spirit but. Christians claim that Jesus resurrected and appeared to his disciples for 40 days eating and drinking with his disciples as evidence that he was in flesh. (Luke 1:3) Two in spirit and one in flesh; no longer a perfect Trinity. Therefore, more than one is all that it takes for idolatry. Now it is your turn to explain the Trinity.

iamaberean
April 24th, 2016, 12:39 PM
Now it is your turn to explain the Trinity.

Isa 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

1. Thy Redeemer (Jesus)
2. Holy One of Israel (Holy Ghost)
2. LORD thy God (Father)

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Redeemer is also flesh, for he stood upon the earth in the latter day.

Ben Masada
April 27th, 2016, 11:33 AM
I believe Jesus is who says he is, and that God raised him from the dead, for my salvation.

I accept, without any qualifiers. Thank you Jesus.

I am glad you can believe the umbelievable. You believe Jesus "is who says he is" but I am sure you need
all the faith you can get because Jesus is dead and, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 nothing of the likes is to be expected of the dead. I understand you though. You are a Christian and can't admit the truth that
Jesus was a Jew who lived according to the Tanach which teaches that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (2 Samuel 12:23; Isaiah 26:14; Job 7,9)