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Sozo
December 1st, 2005, 08:43 AM
:rolleyes:

God_Is_Truth
December 1st, 2005, 01:49 PM
I'm interested on this subject as well. I've always heard people say that we will one day receive rewards, but i've never heard them agree as to what those rewards are, or who gets them.

kmoney
December 1st, 2005, 04:39 PM
I'm interested on this subject as well. I've always heard people say that we will one day receive rewards, but i've never heard them agree as to what those rewards are, or who gets them.
not sure what they are, but I believe who gets them is, at least partially, based on your works and what you did on earth.

** waiting to see Bob's response....**

kmoney
December 3rd, 2005, 05:47 PM
bumb

:sam: Bob Hill

kmoney
December 4th, 2005, 12:03 AM
bump

Bob Hill
December 4th, 2005, 01:28 AM
Hey guys I just discovered this and it's time for me to go to bed. I'll try to get back to it tomorrow.

Bob Hill

Jabez
December 4th, 2005, 07:30 PM
Ive heard this before, and i always say i dont care about the rewards as long as iam in heaven..Wouldnt you agree?

kmoney
December 4th, 2005, 07:39 PM
Ive heard this before, and i always say i dont care about the rewards as long as iam in heaven..Wouldnt you agree?
Well, if you attempt to do things just so you can get rewards in heaven I'd say your motivation is wrong. Your actions should be based on your love of God and your desire to please Him and bring Him glory.

and as far as not caring about rewards, it is ETERNITY, some rewards might be nice! :D

Agape4Robin
December 4th, 2005, 07:43 PM
just guessing?.........:noid:

kmoney
December 4th, 2005, 07:44 PM
...and this is the point of the thread:

How would you know they are nice?
well, that comment was partly just joking, but...

I guess I think they're nice because they are rewards. I generally think of them as good and given the context and how they are used in the bible I think they're good. I guess the possibility of some sort of punishment isn't precluded either though. I have heard a teaching that the place of "weeping and gnashing of teeth" that is spoken of in the bible is actually in heaven.

Sozo
December 4th, 2005, 07:53 PM
well, that comment was partly just joking, but...



I gathered that, but I am anxious to hear what Bob says, because I have never heard anyone give a credible answer about these so-called rewards.

I'm not sure that most people understand my question about how you would know that they are rewards, other than the fact that you are told they are.

I don't see how it is posssible to perceive value after we have been delivered from the flesh.

kmoney
December 4th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I gathered that, but I am anxious to hear what Bob says, because I have never heard anyone give a credible answer about these so-called rewards.

I'm not sure that most people understand my question about how you would know that they are rewards, other than the fact that you are told they are.

I don't see how it is posssible to perceive value after we have been delivered from the flesh.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what Bob says....

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 05:53 AM
I gathered that, but I am anxious to hear what Bob says, because I have never heard anyone give a credible answer about these so-called rewards.

I'm not sure that most people understand my question about how you would know that they are rewards, other than the fact that you are told they are.

I don't see how it is posssible to perceive value after we have been delivered from the flesh.


God is the most valuable being in the universe. The people of God have value. God perceives value. Value is not a fleshly thing. We should be able to perceive and understand value even more on the other side when we see things from God's perspective.

We know that there are rewards. We know we will cast our crowns at His feet since He gets all the glory. The exact nature of the rewards is speculative since Scripture is not explicit about them.

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 09:07 AM
There are a myriad of true theological or philosophical concepts that do not have proof texts.

Do you speak English?

Do you think your car is more valuable than the perfect being of God. We worship or ascribe worth to Him because He is the most valuable, worthy being in the universe. This is due to His inherent, perfect, uncreated nature (Rev. 4).

We are in the image of God (Gen. 1). This is why we have more value or worth (sanctity of life, etc.) than a piece of dirt.

Some concepts are self-evident.

JWs are famous for stringing together proof texts to support specious ideas. Are you sure all your concepts have an explicit chapter and verse?

I know. All the great thinkers in the Church have been wrong, and you alone articulate the faith perfectly.

WDIEB? :bang:

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 09:16 AM
You are failing miserably, godrulz.

Can you at least define the word value?


Google it or look in the dictionary. I think value has something to do with worth. God is the most valuable being in the universe because He is the perfect uncreated Creator. His value is the basis for our obligation to love, serve, and worship Him. If God knew of a more valuable being, He would tell us to worship that being. His worth and value are due to His inherent character and attributes. Are you saying God is worthless? Value has different meanings. Surely one of them should not sound foreign to you in a theological context. Value obligates. If God had no value, He would have no authority to command worship and obedience. Winkie Pratney, Finney, and others will help you understand this biblical concept.

You really have no right to demand answers from me. You lost your right with your constant attack of my Christian experience (worse than Hitler, Satan worshipper, etc.).

Feel free to put me on ignore. You waste my time and others with your narrow mind. If you hope to teach and influence, perhaps you should be more teachable.

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 10:19 AM
:baby:

Then keep your your ignorant godless comments to yourself!

You obviously have no argument, and so you refuse to answer simple questions. Just butt out, loser.


I answered your questions but do not have time to give you a doctoral thesis on the subject. You nit pick without thinking. Value is an elementary concept. Why make a mountain out of a molehill?

My comments are for those with a better attitude. Simply put me on ignore and you will decrease your stress, Mr. Knowitall. :zoomin:

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 10:21 AM
Did you read the title of this thread...

Does it say ANYTHING about being a question for godrulz?

You don't even know the meaning of the word value, and yet you are certain that the rewards in heaven have value, even though you don't know what those rewards are.

You are an idiot.


Does it ask for sozo's peanut gallery to comment? This is an open forum. We all contribute as we wait for Bob's contribution. Perhaps you can learn from his wisdom, character, and humility when others disagree with him. Secure people are more patient with losers like myself.

What is your understanding of value, wiseone? The word 'reward' is used in the NT. Perhaps you should do your homework.

Knight
December 7th, 2005, 11:22 AM
How about the both of you hold off until Bob Hill responds OK?

godrulz
December 7th, 2005, 11:28 AM
How about the both of you hold off until Bob Hill responds OK?
:shut:

elected4ever
December 7th, 2005, 11:34 AM
The rewards in heaven are those things received by those who have received life.

I bought a Ford car and as a result I received according to what the Ford car has to offer. That is not a very good analogy but if one receives life (salvation) they receive according to what the life has to offer.

If one receives life they receive

1.righteousness
2.Peace
3.Eternal existence
4.love
5. joy

and on and on goes the list.

1 Corinthians 2:9 *But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 *But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 *For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 *Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 *Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 *But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 *But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 *For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

kmoney
December 7th, 2005, 04:02 PM
How about the both of you hold off until Bob Hill responds OK?
:thumb:

kmoney
December 8th, 2005, 04:57 PM
Bob, you didn't forget about this thread did ya???

:confused:

God_Is_Truth
December 8th, 2005, 07:55 PM
I haven't seen him post anywhere else lately. Perhaps he just hasn't been online for a while

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 03:01 AM
I’m sorry this took so long. I have been very busy.

I think we have a pretty definitive statement in 2 Timothy about what the reward will be and whether we will be close to getting it. I will list it here with my comments. 2 Ti 2:10 “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”

The elect are those who are already saved. Therefore, Paul is enduring these things for their sake. He wants them to obtain not just salvation, which will be great, but he wants them to obtain the salvation with eternal glory. That eternal glory is reigning with Him. just think, reigning with Him forever and ever. 2 Ti 2:11-15 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.

Now we come to the first class conditions in this section of 2 Timothy. This means, if we fulfill the matter in the protasis, we get the mat :juggle: ter in the apodosis. We did die with Him according to Rom 6:3-11. So we know that we are going to live with Him. Now, the question is, what kind of life are you going to have when you’re with Him. Are you just going to be there-not bad, or are you going to be reigning with Him?

Now we have some more first class conditions. 2 Ti 2:12 If we endure, we shall also reign (reign with Him as kings) with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

How much endurance? It doesn’t say. But that’s the big question. I don’t think there can be many lapses, but we know God is merciful. But, He’s also fair. So when it says “If we deny Him, He also will deny us”, I think that means He will deny us reigning with Him if we deny Him by our life or His word.

2 Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Our salvation is not on the line. Even if we become faithless (This word has a number of meanings. Here’s BGD edited: 1. disbelieve, refuse to believe—a. Mk 16:11; Lk 24:41. aypistoun refused to believe Ac 28:24; a. someone Lk 24:11. b. the relig. sense Mk 16:16. the unbelievers of pagans and Jews 1 Pt 2:7. 2. be unfaithful Ro 3:3; 2 Ti 2:13.), no matter, we have eternal security. We cannot lose our salvation. He cannot deny the body of Christ.

The next aspect we must consider is found in 14 & 15. Here, we’ll see that we must not strive about words for no reason, and we must rightly divide God’s word.
2 Ti 2:14,15 Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

If we don’t “rightly dividing the word of truth”, we will send out a message of legalism. The dispensation of grace is unique since God called Abraham to be the father of circumcision. It looks as though many will lose their reward because of bad theology. I’m not sure to what extent this is true, but it doesn’t look good for all the nomians out there.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

godrulz
December 10th, 2005, 11:48 AM
I think it is intuitive (Scripture does not reveal great detail about the nature of heaven and eternity) that there are degrees of reward and degrees of punishment.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny. Those who believe and continue to believe will be with Christ forever. Corporately, we will rule and reign with Him (I am not sure I agree with Bob, especially on the Timothy interpretation that concludes OSAS). Those who reject Christ (whether they once followed Him or not) will not be with Christ and thus will not reign with Him.

Eph. 2:8-10 We are God's workmanship ("poem") and are created for good works after we are saved. Works will determine degree of reward or responsibility in heaven, whatever shape that takes. The thief on the cross will be in heaven, but will have limited rewards. Hebrews says that God is faithful to remember what we have done for the saints. I Cor. 3 shows that our motives and ministry works will be judged. God has always rewarded obedience (Deut.) and rebuked disobedience.

2 Cor. 5:10 Believers appear at the Bema Seat judgment to have their works and motives judged (our sins were judged at the cross). We receive what is due for things done in the body (works), whether good or bad. This is reasonable, since God is a rewarder of those who serve Him.

Unbelievers have the same destiny, but I do not think a Mormon will have the same degree of punishment as Satan or Hitler. They end up in the lake of fire, but it seems Satan and demons are in the lowest pit (whatever that entails). Separation is separation, but God will judge justly. Though the destiny is the same, the degree of punishment varies. It is speculative as to what that entails. Greater light means greater accountability (vs heathen who never heard the Gospel...still a sinner, but not as culpable as most North Americans).

Rev. 22:12 shows that the dead are judged according to what they had done (some did more or less good/evil). The GWT judgment primarily judges unbeliever's works for degree of punishment. Unbelief, not works, got them to this judgment to begin with (some millennial saints will end up here and will find their name in the Book of life...they will not be judged for their evil or sins). Unbelief gets them to the lake of fire, but they are also judged individually ACCORDING to what they had done.

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 04:11 PM
If our level of rewards are not a significant thing for eternity, I don't know why God would emphasize them like He does. :confused:

Adam
December 10th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Greetings Bob,

It looks like you pulled an allnighter to address various questions, :yawn: and I thank you for taking the time to respond to mine.

However, as you may know, I'm not very transparent :).

I'll try again...

My original question:

Are these rewards material in nature? If so, how can we perceive them as rewards? In other words, how can we perceive value in heaven?

In your response, you do an excellent job of revealing that our reward is in Christ, and in our reigning with Him. You then suggest that we may lose some of our reward of reigning with Him, and that may be true, but why would we care?

All those things, such as envy, strife, coveting, jealousy, greed, etc. are no longer an issue. We are no longer in the flesh. We are partakers of His divine nature, and therefore not only free from the effects of sin, but the ability to sin.

So, how can we perceive value? How does reigning, or not reigning, have any intrinsic value?

If I am walking on streets of dung, as opposed to streets of Gold, why would it matter?
Can I honestly say to myself, "I sure wish that these streets were gold!" or "What happen to God's promise of streets of gold? This doesn't seem fair"?

Do you see my point?

The value of things, time, or responsibilities cannot effect my thinking. How can there be any disappointment or stimulation?Sozo, it appears that you're confusing Heaven with the New Jerusalem.

Adam
December 10th, 2005, 04:36 PM
How's that?Revelation 21:2a, 21b "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...and the street of the city [was] pure gold" It's coming down from heaven to the new earth. Where will you spend eternity? Earth or heaven?

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 04:42 PM
Godrulz,

What is your response to the security of the believer when the believer, in this Dispensation of Grace becomes part of God’s predestined plan and can therefore not ever lose his place with God.

We have to see that this is a dispensational thing since we know that Israel pridefully thought they could not lose their salvation. We shouldn’t be prideful just because we cannot lose our salvation. My security is based on His security statements.

Eph 1:13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

If the Gentiles do continue in this same attitude that the majority of Israel had, God said through Paul, “Watch out!” However, our eternal security is secure because we are predestined to be holy and blameless once we trust Christ. Other important aspects of our security are our adoption and sealing.

According to Gal 4:3-5 we went from slaves to adopted sons. Gal 4:3-5 “Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.”

Now, what does this adoption mean? We read in Gal 3:13-18, “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant (or will diathaykayn), yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.

How could Paul write that? We can change a will any time we want to, in America today. But the Galatian cities were under Greek law. And it was different under ancient Greek law. The greatest archeologist of Turkey, William Ramsay, wrote a lot about adoption in his Historical Commentary of Galatians, pp 349-355.

He showed how the adopted son could not be disinherited even though the natural child could be disinherited. That’s why Ephesians 1 tells us of the security of our adoption. Eph 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

We enter into the full status of our inheritance and enjoyment of our adoption when the rapture takes place and we receive our glorified body, so the time of our adoption, at the rapture, is shown in Rom 8:14,15 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

We also have the present results of our adoption. Gal 4:4-7 “But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Finally, to show the surety of our adoption/salvation, God seals us and guarantees our inheritance and makes it all absolute by predestinating it. Eph 1:5-7,11-14 [b]having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works the all things (ta panta], the body of Christ) according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.”

Our salvation is guaranteed and sealed by God. On top of that, it is all predestined. You can’t beat that.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Revelation 21:2a, 21b "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...and the street of the city [was] pure gold" It's coming down from heaven to the new earth. Where will you spend eternity? Earth or heaven?The new earth. Old things will have passed away and all things will become new. Christ Jesus will reign on Earth at his return and heaven will still be the abode of God the Father.

Adam
December 10th, 2005, 04:57 PM
The new earth. Old things will have passed away and all things will become new. Christ Jesus will reign on Earth at his return and heaven will still be the abode of God the Father.The righteous from the Kingdom dispensations will be on the new earth, we will reign in the highest of the heavenlies. Ephesians 1:3

amosman
December 10th, 2005, 05:06 PM
I do beleive if saved always saved. There are many that think they are saved and try very hard to convince themselfs of that.

God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
I have a question. Was it Jesus that was born "under the law" or Mary?

amosman
December 10th, 2005, 05:24 PM
I don't want to get sidetracked, but both of them were born under the law.
What do you think it means to be under the law?

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 05:27 PM
If our level of rewards are not a significant thing for eternity, I don't know why God would emphasize them like He does. :confused:What you seem to neglect is that there is no sin in those in Christ Jesus and we are of the Spirit and not of the flesh and the body, also called flesh, is quickened by the spirit and the work done in the body is a result of the quickening of the spirit to do the work. There is no good work outside of that. All the works that has as there origin the flesh nature of man are not good works no matter how religious and acceptable by men they might be.

I think a lot has to do with how our brain works. In our daily lives we need motivation to do stuff. Using earthly examples gives us an understanding. Like Run the race so as to finish it. It is more about our example to the world of Godly character than about finishing the race.

I think there are degrees in our services we will perform for the King. But for whatever purpose the King has for me in His service will be commensurate with His appointment. I think earth is a training ground to develop the needed skills and experience. I am really to stupid to know what is a good or what is a bad work. I may be doing a good work and not even know it. I just do what is placed before me that day with varying degrees of success. There is a lot of trust in my life. What ever God has planed for me, I am sure it will be worth it.

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Heaven.

The body of Christ, those who are saved in this Dispensation of Grace have their citizenship in heaven.

Phil 3:29 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

“Our citizenship is in heaven,”. The pronoun, haymon, (“our”) is first here. It emphasizes our position in the heavenlies. The redeemed Jews, prior to the Dispensation of Grace, have their position on earth.

We will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Phil 2:9,10 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth.

We in the Body of Christ are the ones in heaven.

Col 1:19,20 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 05:42 PM
What we are going to be doing is not explained.

Bob Hill

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 05:52 PM
What we are going to be doing is not explained.

Bob HillWhen Jesus returns and we are translated, where does it say that Jesus goes back to heaven? Of course our citizenship is in heaven now but that wasn't the question as I understood it.

Yes, there is a lot of room for speculation isn't there! :D

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 06:01 PM
amosman,

It was Jesus since the word for born which is a participle here, in the Greek, is masculine. If it was referring to Mary, the participle would have been feminine.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 06:16 PM
The Greek language has masculine, feminine, and neuter forms of words, in this case, the participle.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 06:54 PM
Again, we will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Redeemed Israel will be on the new Earth.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill
December 10th, 2005, 07:07 PM
I'm looking for the blessed hope.

Bob

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 07:41 PM
I'm looking for the blessed hope.

BobMe too, but I call it the resurrection not rapture. There is no rapture. The word is not even in scripture.

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 07:55 PM
Again, we will be caught up at the rapture and always be with the Lord.
1 The 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Redeemed Israel will be on the new Earth.

Bob Hill1 Thessalonians 4:13 *¶But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 *For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 *For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 *For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 *Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 *Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Where does it say that redeemed Israel will be on the new Earth? I have found no scripture that suggest that.

godrulz
December 10th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Revelation 21:2a, 21b "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven...and the street of the city [was] pure gold" It's coming down from heaven to the new earth. Where will you spend eternity? Earth or heaven?


We inhabit the City, the New Jerusalem. Eventually, it comes down and hovers over earth. There will be some who will continue into eternity on the new earth in natural bodies (JWs are not wrong about everything), and the Church will have glorified bodies and have access to the City and restored paradise earth.

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 08:38 PM
We inhabit the City, the New Jerusalem. Eventually, it comes down and hovers over earth. There will be some who will continue into eternity on the new earth in natural bodies (JWs are not wrong about everything), and the Church will have glorified bodies and have access to the City and restored paradise earth.reference please

godrulz
December 10th, 2005, 09:15 PM
reference please


Eschatology is not based on one proof text. Some of it involves speculation or inferences from all relevant texts throughout the Bible.

Revelation 21 talks about the City coming down and the nations of the earth having access to its light.

Adam
December 10th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Eschatology is not based on one proof text. Some of it involves speculation or inferences from all relevant texts throughout the Bible.

Revelation 21 talks about the City coming down and the nations of the earth having access to its light.And this is after the great falling away of the Body of Christ from the earth as prophesied in Thessalonians. Therefore, it only applies to who will be left.

godrulz
December 10th, 2005, 09:37 PM
And this is after the great falling away of the Body of Christ from the earth as prophesied in Thessalonians. Therefore, it only applies to who will be left.


The falling away (are you talking about 2 Thess.) is during the Great Tribulation before His Second Coming. The New Jerusalem descends 1000 years later after the millennial reign of Christ before the New Heavens and Earth.

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 10:19 PM
The falling away (are you talking about 2 Thess.) is during the Great Tribulation before His Second Coming. The New Jerusalem descends 1000 years later after the millennial reign of Christ before the New Heavens and Earth.But where does it say that Jesus or us return to heaven? Meeting the Lord in the air does not constitute a return to heaven.

elected4ever
December 10th, 2005, 10:21 PM
lets drop it on this tread. Eschatology is another topic.

Adam
December 10th, 2005, 10:44 PM
lets drop it on this tread. Eschatology is another topic.He who identifies the problem, most likely has the solution. Start another thread?

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:21 PM
If our level of rewards are not a significant thing for eternity, I don't know why God would emphasize them like He does. :confused:

Bob,
Is not our reward the Lord Jesus?
What other rewards are there?
Is not Jesus enough?
One would think Jesus and His very life is the believer's reward.

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 10:23 PM
Bob,
Is not our reward the Lord Jesus?
What other rewards are there?
Is not Jesus enough?
One would think Jesus and His very life is the believer's reward.It is A reward, yes.

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:25 PM
It is A reward, yes.
If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 10:28 PM
If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?No, I would not. Jesus would be enough, to me. But apparently God wants to give us more.

Welcome back, by the way. :5020:

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:32 PM
No, I would not. Jesus would be enough, to me. If Jesus is God and He is, what more could we need in His presence? Is He not our All?


But apparently God wants to give us more. What eternal rewards would that be?


Welcome back, by the way. :5020: Thank you. :eek:

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 10:34 PM
If Jesus is God and He is, what more could we need in His presence? Is He not our All?I agree. I said it would be enough for me. Were you aware of this? :eek:

What eternal rewards would that be?Off the top of my head: crowns, and the place He has prepared.

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:40 PM
Off the top of my head: crowns, Crowns? For what? I just don't get this talk about rewards. The Scriptures are not clear on this subject but I do know Jesus Christ is our reward for He is our life and in Him we not lacking anything!

"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 10:43 PM
Crowns? For what? I just don't get this talk about rewards. The Scriptures are not clear on this subject but I do know Jesus Christ is our reward for He is our life and in Him we not lacking anything!Do some research, Freak. The Bible says, in more than one location, that we will receive crowns. Do you think I am making it up?

"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."I don't think heavenly crowns are "earthly things."

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:50 PM
The Bible says, in more than one location, that we will receive crowns. Do you think I am making it up? No, but ones understanding of "crowns" is mistaken. Jesus is our crown. The apostle John, tells us, the one has crowns "...is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

The crowns that believers have obtained is Jesus the Lord!



I don't think heavenly crowns are "earthly things." I think I can reasonably go back to the question I posed to answer any concerns one might have about rewards or "crowns": If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?

The answer is NO!!

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 10:52 PM
No, but ones understanding of "crowns" is mistaken. Jesus is our crown. The apostle John, tells us, the one has crowns "...is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

The crowns that believers have obtained is Jesus the Lord!Are you kidding? Using that logic, you could translate the verse, "The One who has crowns is the crowns." That's ridiculous. How do you explain the various types of crowns for various achievments? Is Jesus a schizo?

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 10:55 PM
How do you explain the various types of crowns for various achievments? Achievements? All, I know is Jesus is the One who has the crowns--He is King! If we have His life, then He rules as King (the One whom possesses the crowns) in our lives. He is our reward and the only achievement that I'm aware of is obtaining the riches of His grace.

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Achievements? All, I know is Jesus is the One who has the crowns--He is King! If we have His life, then He rules as King (the One whom possesses the crowns) in our lives. He is our reward and the only achievement that I'm aware of is obtaining the riches of His grace.Right, He has the crowns. Not that He is the crown. Since you don't that part of your Bible well, let me list some verses.


(1 Corinthians 9:25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

(2 Timothy 4:8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(James 1:12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

(1 Peter 5:4) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Those are just a few. Now, are all of those crowns Jesus?

Freak
December 15th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Right, He has the crowns. Not that He is the crown. Since you don't that part of your Bible well, let me list some verses.


(1 Corinthians 9:25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

(2 Timothy 4:8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

(James 1:12) Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

(1 Peter 5:4) And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Those are just a few. Now, are all of those crowns Jesus?

Our crown of righteousness is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our crown of life is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our crown of glory is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our incorruptible crown is no other then Jesus the Lord

For life, righteousness, any incorruptible gift/crown is found in Him as a person.

Mr. 5020
December 15th, 2005, 11:19 PM
Our crown of righteousness is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our crown of life is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our crown of glory is no other then Jesus the Lord

Our incorruptible crown is no other then Jesus the Lord

For life, righteousness, any incorruptible gift/crown is found in Him as a person.So He is going to give us Himself as a crown?

godrulz
December 16th, 2005, 12:26 AM
Reward could have something to do with responsiblity. The thief on the cross will not get the same rewards as Dwight Moody. Both have Jesus, but God says He will remember our works done for the saints, the cup of water given in Jesus name, etc. Stewardship parables imply rewards/responsibilities. The crowns we get are put at Jesus' feet showing that He gets all the glory for what we do in His name.

Freak
December 16th, 2005, 06:05 AM
So He is going to give us Himself as a crown? Yep. Just as He gives Himself to us as a shield.

The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

--Ps. 18

SOTK
December 16th, 2005, 06:10 AM
Hey, it's Freak! Welcome back, brother! :up:

Freak
December 16th, 2005, 06:14 AM
Hey, it's Freak! Welcome back, brother! :up: God bless YOU & your family!!! :first:

Mr. 5020
December 16th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Yep. Just as He gives Himself to us as a shield.

The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

--Ps. 18It doesn't say that He will give Himself to us a shield. That's the difference: the way it is worded. This proves my point. Why would God say that "He is my shield" and then say that "He will give me a crown" if He should have just said "I am your crown."

Freak
December 16th, 2005, 03:44 PM
It doesn't say that He will give Himself to us a shield. That's the difference: the way it is worded. This proves my point. Why would God say that "He is my shield" and then say that "He will give me a crown" if He should have just said "I am your crown."

"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Mr. 5020
December 16th, 2005, 03:46 PM
"After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”Thank you for another proof text for my point.

Freak
December 16th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Thank you for another proof text for my point.

The Lord God is our reward as revealed from Abram to the apostle John.

As the prophet Isaiah understood long ago, "...the LORD Almighty will be a glorious crown..."

godrulz
December 16th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Crown, reward, shield, etc. can have different implications in every context. One should not make a simplistic doctrine or generalization from one context alone. We need to look at all relevant concepts in Scripture to formulate a doctrine. God is our Reward, but this does not preclude the possibility of other rewards. There is also more than one type of crown as evidenced by the various Greek words for crown in Scripture.

Freak
December 16th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Crown, reward, shield, etc. can have different implications in every context. One should not make a simplistic doctrine or generalization from one context alone. We need to look at all relevant concepts in Scripture to formulate a doctrine. God is our Reward, but this does not preclude the possibility of other rewards. There is also more than one type of crown as evidenced by the various Greek words for crown in Scripture. Yes, there are crowns but it is no other then Jesus Christ. The crown of righteousness is Jesus. The crown of life is Jesus. And so on.

What do you think a crown is? Like to get your thoughts.

Sozo
December 16th, 2005, 04:08 PM
God is our Reward, but this does not preclude the possibility of other rewards.


Source?

Servo
December 18th, 2005, 10:47 AM
I believe the crown (rewards) have to do with relationships. There is nothing better....

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 11:25 AM
I believe the crown (rewards) have to do with relationships. There is nothing better....

Jesus took a crown of thorns, that we may have a crown of life.

All who come to Christ, receive THE reward, which is His life, and in His life we receive all that God has prepared for us.

The crown(s) that believers receive are life, righteousness, and glory through faith in Jesus Christ. All those who are in Christ receive them.

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation. They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith; not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.

Preaching a gospel of works, is building on the foundation with wood, hay, and straw, and the reward will be burned up. His efforts will produce nothing of value in the hearts of those whom he has shared.

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 12:47 PM
I believe the crown (rewards) have to do with relationships. There is nothing better.... If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Source?


The Bible.

Stewardship parables.

Heb. 11:6 rewards those who diligently seek Him (speculative what the rewards are, but they are more than just having God in our lives...all believers have this...context is faith).

Heb. 6:10 God is not unjust to forget our love and help to others.

I Cor. 3:15 (context of ministry) "...he will receive his reward..." (talking about works, not salvation or God Himself).

etc. etc. (do a search on rewards in the whole Bible and read each context...I have not, but it does talk about it...it does not fully reveal the nature of the rewards...you will have more rewards/responsibilities in eternity than the thief on the cross who was snatched at the last minute from the fire...this is consistent with concepts of justice, fairness, etc. Deuteronomy also talks about blessings, even in crops, for obedience and cursing for disobedience....God reveals principles, even though OT).

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 02:25 PM
If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?

No, but God desires to give. Reward and punishment are basic principles. There is also degrees of punishment. It fits in with God's impartial love and justice.

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 03:08 PM
. Reward and punishment are basic principles. Under the Law, that is true. Do good, get good, do bad get punished. But if you continue to relate to God through that system, you completely undue the work of Christ.

Of course, I am not surprised that you still are walking under the demands of the Law, because you are still carnal.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 03:13 PM
The Bible.

Stewardship parables.

Heb. 11:6 rewards those who diligently seek Him (speculative what the rewards are, but they are more than just having God in our lives...all believers have this...context is faith).

The reward is Life. Those whom He rewards in that verse are those who need to believe that He is, and the reward is His life. Everything given to us by God is in Him, in His Life.

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Sozo,

You wrote:



The crown(s) that believers receive are life, righteousness, and glory through faith in Jesus Christ. All those who are in Christ receive them.


It may be true that we will receive stuff, however, in 1 Cor 9:24-27, it seems that we can become disqualified. 1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Bob Hill

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Sozo,

We have the potential of having another crown which Paul mentioned.

2 Tim 4:6-8 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

That’s the kind of crown that we should be striving for, not just to get a crown, but because we are pleasing the Lord.

Bob Hill

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Sozo,

It may be true that we will receive stuff, however, in 1 Cor 9:24-27, it seems that we can become disqualified. 1 Cor 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Bob Hill

Greetings Bob!

I'm not sure what you meant in your first sentence "It may be true that we will receive stuff". Are you referring to life, righteousness, and glory as "stuff"?

In any case, Paul is comparing what he does as a minister of the gospel, to those who run in a race. He knows that they only way to assure that one not be disqualified in a race is to be certain that he will win. Paul cannot have what he has been called to do in preaching the gospel be done in vain. Paul does not want to be rejected by those with whom he shares the message.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 05:38 PM
I inquired: If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?
No, but God desires to give. Well, then it doesn't matter, for we won't be missing anything since we have the very life of Jesus. All this talk about rewards is silly since we believers have Christ who is THE REWARD.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Sozo,
You wrote:
It may be true that we will receive stuff, however, in 1 Cor 9:24-27, it seems that we can become disqualified.
Bob Hill What "stuff" are you referring to?

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Running races and crowns may have some symbolic, illustrative sense, but they must portray some reality or truth.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 06:07 PM
Running races and crowns may have some symbolic, illustrative sense, but they must portray some reality or truth. Our reality is Jesus Christ, godrulz.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Running races and crowns may have some symbolic, illustrative sense, but they must portray some reality or truth.

They do, and I explained it.

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Sozo,

Why do you have this godrulz is a false teacher on your post all the time? I don't think God wants us to do things like that as Christians. I plead with you to remove it.

Bob Hill

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 07:42 PM
Sozo,

Why do you have this godrulz is a false teacher on your post all the time?

All of us say things that are false, at times. I certainly am aware of that, and am guilty of it.

However, godrulz is fairly articulate and somewhat well versed, and therefore many people may fall victim of the idea that he preaches the gospel, when nearly every view he has is diametrically opposed. The sheep need to know when there is a wolf in their midst.


I don't think God wants us to do things like that as Christians.

Are you saying that Paul would never have exposed false teachers?

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Our reality is Jesus Christ, godrulz.

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."


The issue of rewards and stewardship is not the same issue as the Old Testament shadows/types and their fulfillment in Christ. They are different topics, so keep the texts separate.

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 07:48 PM
Sozo,

Why do you have this godrulz is a false teacher on your post all the time? I don't think God wants us to do things like that as Christians. I plead with you to remove it.

Bob Hill


He does not consider me a Christian. He likens me to worse than Hitler, a Satan worshipper, a Christ hater, etc.

Thank you for your attempt to mediate. I think it grieves the Spirit that he would attribute God's love and grace in my life as demonic due to different understandings of sanctification (this was our main dispute...he does not seem to see that I affirm biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity including justification by grace through faith alone, apart from works or self-righteousness). I believe he misunderstands my ideas to some degree. Even if I am wrong in some areas, this is not tantamount to being outside of a relationship with Christ and His Church.

(I am a former pastor in the Canadian equivalent of the Assemblies of God...you would think that they or my other pastors would have had discernment if I was a wolf in the midst of the flock...I have also been on the board of a godly, powerful church...I doubt they were blind to my relationship with God).

I concur that we should deal with beliefs, not ad hominem attacks.

I agree we should expose false teachings. This does not mean we are false teachers in the fundamentals of the faith necessarily. We are also to speak the truth in love and have wisdom and discernment. The Spirit is able to lead us into truth through His Word.

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 08:26 PM
Sozo,

I'm sorry you use the Apostle Paul as an example. God was leading him into all truth. He is not leading us into all truth like He was leading Paul. I have changed aspects of my theological beliefs over a thousand times. Who knows what is next?

God knows my heart, that I want to find His truth in His word, but we all have blinders on to some extent. I plead with you again. What you are doing in this one thing is not a godly thing.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 08:41 PM
Sozo,

I'm sorry you use the Apostle Paul as an example. God was leading him into all truth. He is not leading us into all truth like He was leading Paul. I have changed aspects of my theological beliefs over a thousand times. Who knows what is next?

God knows my heart, that I want to find His truth in His word, but we all have blinders on to some extent. I plead with you again. What you are doing in this one thing is not a godly thing.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

If I believed you, I would never read my bible and I would never tell people about Jesus. There would be no absolutes, and PureX would be our leader.

If we cannot know the the truth of the gospel, then what hope are we sharing?

Shall we not warn the church, or the lost, of the teachings that come from Mormons, JWs, Calvinists, etc.?

If none of us has an understanding of the message concerning Christ, then we are all just blind leading blind.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 08:57 PM
The issue of rewards and stewardship is not the same issue as the Old Testament shadows/types and their fulfillment in Christ. They are different topics, so keep the texts separate. The rewards given in the OT were shadows, however, in the New Covenant the reality is found in Christ, our reward.

Servo
December 18th, 2005, 09:12 PM
If one didn't receive any other reward but Jesus would you be missing something of eternal significance?
Jesus is our Lord and Savior. That is not being debated here.

If God gives us the reward of some significant relationships, how much the better?

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Jesus is our Lord and Savior. That is not being debated here. I believe we all agree on this.


If God gives us the reward of some significant relationships, how much the better? Shimei, we have Christ who is our ALL. What more could we need apart from His very life? If I have Christ, which I do, then what more would I need in glory? I believe in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

Servo
December 18th, 2005, 09:22 PM
I believe we all agree on this.

Shimei, we have Christ who is our ALL. What more could we need apart from His very life? If I have Christ, which I do, then what more would I need in glory? I believe in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ.

I also believe that. But that is not the topic being discussed here.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 09:24 PM
I also believe that. But that is not the topic being discussed here. This thread is about "rewards/crowns" and there is a few of us arguing that Jesus Christ is our crowns/rewards--the crown of life, the crown of righteousness, etc.

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Sozo,

We can know God’s absolutes as recorded in His Word, the Bible. We have absolutes. God is always absolutely right. If He wanted to, He could step in and make everything happen the way He wants it to be, but He treasures our free will. He wants us to love him because He is this wonderful God that He is. I love Him.

I study my Bible because I know it is truth. If I just read what I have written myself, I know there would be some error in it. I don’t want to be in error. That’s why I study about 40 to 50 hours a week.

To answer the “problem” in Rom 8:29, I think it is good to look at God’s repentance when He changed His mind after Moses prayed in Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

However, Ex 32:9-14 is not about God not knowing any of the future. God knows the future of the events He predetermines. In fact, that is exactly what our passage shows. He said in Rom 8:29,30: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Servo
December 18th, 2005, 09:32 PM
This thread is about "rewards/crowns" and there is a few of us arguing that Jesus Christ is our crowns/rewards--the crown of life, the crown of righteousness, etc.

If receiving Christ as our Savior is the same thing as receiving crowns in heaven, then there is no debate. If the two are separate, then there is something to discuss. I think we all get your point, so if you have anything else to add, please do so. Otherwise, try another thread.

Freak
December 18th, 2005, 09:34 PM
If receiving Christ as our Savior is the same thing as receiving crowns in heaven, then there is no debate. If the two are separate, then there is something to discuss. I think we all get your point, so if you have anything else to add, please do so. Otherwise, try another thread. Shimei, I've been discussing the issue about crowns/rewards with godrulz not YOU but thanks for your interest.

Servo
December 18th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Shimei, I've been discussing the issue about crowns/rewards with godrulz not YOU but thanks for your interest.

I made a statement and you quoted me. Backing down I see.
You’ve changed Freak.

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Sozo,

We can know God’s absolutes as recorded in His Word, the Bible. We have absolutes. God is always absolutely right. If He wanted to, He could step in and make everything happen the way He wants it to be, but He treasures our free will. He wants us to love him because He is this wonderful God that He is. I love Him.

I study my Bible because I know it is truth. If I just read what I have written myself, I know there would be some error in it. I don’t want to be in error. That’s why I study about 40 to 50 hours a week.

To answer the “problem” in Rom 8:29, I think it is good to look at God’s repentance when He changed His mind after Moses prayed in Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.

However, Ex 32:9-14 is not about God not knowing any of the future. God knows the future of the events He predetermines. In fact, that is exactly what our passage shows. He said in Rom 8:29,30: “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.”

In Christ,
Bob Hill

I'm sorry Bob, but I do not understand what point you are making concerning fact that I believe we can know the truth of the gospel and share it, while at the same time warning others of false gospels and false teachers.

I certainly believe that God repented, does not know all future events, and that there are things that He predetermines.

Please help dispel my confusion with your post.

Sozo

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 09:44 PM
Shimei, I've been discussing the issue about crowns/rewards with godrulz not YOU but thanks for your interest.

I have not studied this issue extensively. I did not realize it was a controversial issue. I trust that Christ is my Reward and that there may be other unknown rewards for faithful service. This does not seem inconsistent with a personal God who is not arbitrary. I believe a widow who gives out of her poverty can have the same reward as a rich person who gives a smaller percentage. Someone who obeys God and serves others faithfully can have the same reward as an international evangelist who fulfills his unique calling with similar faithfulness.

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 09:52 PM
I'm sorry Bob, but I do not understand what point you are making concerning fact that I believe we can know the truth of the gospel and share it, while at the same time warning others of false gospels and false teachers.

I certainly believe that God repented, does not know all future events, and that there are things that He predetermines.

Please help dispel my confusion with your post.

Sozo

Since when are you open theist friendly? The issue is that you are wrongly confusing peripheral issues with the core of the Gospel. You can warn others about false gospels like Mormons and JWs, but to assume all theological debates on peripheral issues that differ from your limited perspective makes one a false teacher or denier of essential Christian truth lacks credibility. Virtually no one out of the millions of Christians would be saved with your criteria.

Again, what is the author and book that has emphasized a legitimate truth about "LIFE" out of balance with other equally valid Scriptural truths? I think his name begins with 'S'.

As an aside, I find it hard to believe that you reject Ravenhill now. He was an anointed evangelist, revivalist. Revival and spiritual awakening are God initiated. You cannot gut issues of holiness, sin, and repentance from your message (as it appears you do in relation to believers/perfectionism) and expect some believers to experience the transforming power of God. Keith Green was used to awaken much of a sleeping generation/church. It seems to me thinly veiled arrogance to reject portions of the body of Christ because they were growing in their understanding of God or because they do not line up with your new book you discovered (I know you do not agree with everything in that book, but perhaps you have been unduly influenced by it...not everyone who read or reviewed the book found everything credible).

What is the book so I can understand your perspective better (don't bother claiming you just get your ideas from the Bible)?

I do not hide my influences. Why would you?

Bob Hill
December 18th, 2005, 10:56 PM
Godrulz,

I have to quit for the night. I want to spend some tme with my wife before we go to bed. It has been a good night on Theology on line.

Bob

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 11:00 PM
Godrulz,

I have to quit for the night. I want to spend some tme with my wife before we go to bed. It has been a good night on Theology on line.

Bob


Iron sharpens iron, but we need our soft wives too. I am pleased you study so many hours diligently. It is a challenge to get it from our heads to our hearts so it will transform us and others, the goal of truth (vs puff up in pride). May we speak the truth in love and recognize the added responsibility to be teachable if we are to be teachers.

I look forward to meeting you in heaven unless you need a place to stay in Canada before then.

What are a few of your favorite books besides the Bible?

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 11:17 PM
godrulz... if you need a list of books that do a fair job of revealing some of the same things I believe, then here you go...


Major Ian Thomas - The Saving Life Of Christ
Malcolm Smith - Spiritual Burnout
Peter Gilquist - Love is Now
Bob George - Classic Christianity or The Faith That Pleases God
David Needham - Birthright (Part One only)
Jack Stewart - The Legalist
Bill Gillham - What God Wishes Christians Knew About Christianity


Have fun, and let me know when you are finished reading them!

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 11:31 PM
I think Needham's is a Multnomah book I have. I am sure they would be helpful books whether we agree totally with everything or not. George was the one I was thinking of. My wife might leave me if I bring another book into the house. :dead:

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 11:37 PM
I think Needham's is a Multnomah book I have. I am sure they would be helpful books whether we agree totally with everything or not. George was the one I was thinking of. My wife might leave me if I bring another book into the house. :dead:

Just agree to throw everything else away.

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 11:42 PM
godrulz... if you need a list of books that do a fair job of revealing some of the same things I believe, then here you go...


Major Ian Thomas - The Saving Life Of Christ
Malcolm Smith - Spiritual Burnout
Peter Gilquist - Love is Now
Bob George - Classic Christianity or The Faith That Pleases God
David Needham - Birthright (Part One only)
Jack Stewart - The Legalist
Bill Gillham - What God Wishes Christians Knew About Christianity


Have fun, and let me know when you are finished reading them!

I think Clete and maybe yourself recommended Stanford's books. He seems to feel George is incorrect in his views. How can they both be right if they contradict? This shows we must critically evaluate all that we read since it can sound persuasive and consistent on the surface, but may be problematic on closer examination. I am not familiar exactly with most of these author's detailed views.

http://withchrist.org/MJS/bob_george.htm

godrulz
December 18th, 2005, 11:45 PM
Just agree to throw everything else away.


They are all unique individuals. Make me an offer $$$

Sozo
December 18th, 2005, 11:47 PM
Here... I'll give you one of Bob's outlines. However, please remember that I am not totally in sync with everything he says.

Law & Grace

John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 7
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath,
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin

1 Timothy 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation

Galatians 3
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life

Galatians 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The law can only bring death

Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 5
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 10
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Christ fulfilled the law

Matthew 5
27 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5
21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it

The purpose of the law is to stir up sin

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7
5 For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Colossians 2
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Romans 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

The law includes the ten commandments

2 Corinthians 3
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

John 19
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Hebrews 10
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 4
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Hebrews 9
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ

Galatians 3
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

Romans 7
1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

2 Corinthians 12
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me

Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith

Sozo
December 19th, 2005, 12:11 AM
I think Clete and maybe yourself recommended Stanford's books. He seems to feel George is incorrect in his views. How can they both be right if they contradict? This shows we must critically evaluate all that we read since it can sound persuasive and consistent on the surface, but may be problematic on closer examination. I am not familiar exactly with most of these author's detailed views.

http://withchrist.org/MJS/bob_george.htm

I read that link a long time ago. It doesn't have anything substantial to say.

godrulz... There is nothing that you can throw at me that I have not already heard, studied, prayed over, wept over, etc.

I read hundreds of theology books from every writer you can imagine Including: Luther, Tozer, Murray, Edwards, Lewis, Pink, Hunt, Nee, Packer, Pratney, Stott, Spurgeon, Finney, Wesley, Augustine, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Schaffer, Calvin, Henry, Pinnock, Morris, Whitehead, Hodge, Locke, Tertullian, Sproul, Origen, Martyr, Law etc.

You have never posted anything that I have not already either believed myself, or took a great deal of time researching to check it's validity.

The bible is wholly sufficient in relaying what we need to know concerning the message of the gospel. All of that effort and time I gave reading and studying those mens writings was wasted, except to tell others not to waste their time.

drbrumley
December 19th, 2005, 12:34 AM
Here... I'll give you one of Bob's outlines. However, please remember that I am not totally in sync with everything he says.

Law & Grace

John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 7
18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8
13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 7
20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath,
21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'"
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

The purpose of the law is to make us conscious of sin

1 Timothy 1
8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

The purpose of the law is to show our need for salvation

Galatians 3
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.
20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.

The law cannot make you righteous, justify you, or give you life

Galatians 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The law can only bring death

Romans 7
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Galatians 3
21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Matthew 5
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Hebrews 10
14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Christ fulfilled the law

Matthew 5
27 You have heard that it was said, Do not commit adultery.
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5
21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

James 2
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it

The purpose of the law is to stir up sin

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 7
5 For when we were controlled by the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Colossians 2
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings.
23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Romans 9
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;
31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

The law includes the ten commandments

2 Corinthians 3
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Hebrews 10
1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

John 1
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

John 19
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Hebrews 10
12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

Romans 10
4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Galatians 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 4
4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,
5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Hebrews 9
15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Romans 8
3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man,
4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The purpose of the law is to lead us to Christ

Galatians 3
24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law

Romans 6
14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

1 Corinthians 15
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him

Romans 7
1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives?
2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage.
3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death.
6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Galatians 1
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

2 Corinthians 12
9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me

Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 8
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Galatians 2
19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God.

Galatians 5
1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Ephesians 2
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Galatians 3
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith
Bob George?

godrulz
December 19th, 2005, 12:59 AM
I read that link a long time ago. It doesn't have anything substantial to say.

godrulz... There is nothing that you can throw at me that I have not already heard, studied, prayed over, wept over, etc.

I read hundreds of theology books from every writer you can imagine Including: Luther, Tozer, Murray, Edwards, Lewis, Pink, Hunt, Nee, Packer, Pratney, Stott, Spurgeon, Finney, Wesley, Augustine, Barth, Bonhoeffer, Schaffer, Calvin, Henry, Pinnock, Morris, Whitehead, Hodge, Locke, Tertullian, Sproul, Origen, Martyr, Law etc.

You have never posted anything that I have not already either believed myself, or took a great deal of time researching to check it's validity.

The bible is wholly sufficient in relaying what we need to know concerning the message of the gospel. All of that effort and time I gave reading and studying those mens writings was wasted, except to tell others not to waste their time.


Ultimately the living Word of God blows away the collections of dead men's brains. I commend you for doing your due diligence (more than most of us).

I am pleased I am now only confused and not a total false teacher (at least to placate Bob) :sigh:

I agree with your list of verses. I have also stated that the law cannot save us and that it is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. Finney used the law to bring deep conviction and repentance so the lost would trust Christ alone for salvation. He contrasted the holy character and law of God with the selfish sinfulness of man. The Spirit used the Word to break people's hearts and to cling to the One who is love incarnate, full of grace and truth.

godrulz
December 19th, 2005, 01:00 AM
Bob George?

Not to be confused with Boy George. Bob Hill or George? I think he means George (I never heard of him until sozo).

Sozo
December 19th, 2005, 08:03 PM
I think he means George (I never heard of him until sozo).

His book Classic Christianity, (with a Forward endorsement from Bill Bright), is published in 20 different languages, and is one of the best slling Christian books of all time. He also has a nationally syndicated call in show on over 50 radio stations, and on the internet.

godrulz
December 20th, 2005, 01:42 AM
His book Classic Christianity, (with a Forward endorsement from Bill Bright), is published in 20 different languages, and is one of the best slling Christian books of all time. He also has a nationally syndicated call in show on over 50 radio stations, and on the internet.

Sounds worth reading, but like "The Plot", it probably does not stand up to close scrutiny in all areas. No one book, except the Bible, returns us to pure, biblical Christianity. George's subjective ideas are not divine revelation any more than Finney was an infallible prophet.

Sozo
December 20th, 2005, 08:04 AM
Sounds worth reading, but like "The Plot", it probably does not stand up to close scrutiny in all areas. No one book, except the Bible, returns us to pure, biblical Christianity. George's subjective ideas are not divine revelation any more than Finney was an infallible prophet.

godrulz, as usual, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The only thing I truly gained from reading his book was the "revelation" to stop reading other people's books and to turn all of my attention to prayer and bible study.

godrulz
December 20th, 2005, 07:04 PM
godrulz, as usual, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

The only thing I truly gained from reading his book was the "revelation" to stop reading other people's books and to turn all of my attention to prayer and bible study.


How superspiritual. Along the way, you just happened to adopt many of his ideas and leave behind those of other great men of God?

I should have been blond to go along with my cluelessness.

You hinted to someone I was articulate. This is debatable. Regardless, I would rather be truthful and glorifying to God.

Sozo
December 20th, 2005, 08:05 PM
How superspiritual. Along the way, you just happened to adopt many of his ideas and leave behind those of other great men of God?


Perhaps you forgot my quote, that use to be my signature.

"There are no great men of God, there is only a great God of men".

godrulz
December 20th, 2005, 11:42 PM
Perhaps you forgot my quote, that use to be my signature.

"There are no great men of God, there is only a great God of men".

More than half true. God commended men of faith in Scripture. They were giants and mighty in spirit compared to the godless of the world. They are great because He is great who is in them.

lightninboy
February 1st, 2007, 05:11 PM
I think that rewards are a major incentive for service to God.

Sozo
February 1st, 2007, 05:13 PM
I think that rewards are a major incentive for service to God.What are they?

lightninboy
February 1st, 2007, 05:21 PM
That's what the Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org) teaches.

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rewards&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fjournal&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fjourn al

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rewards&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fnews&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fnews

Sozo
February 1st, 2007, 05:27 PM
That's what the Grace Evangelical Society (faithalone.org) teaches.

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rewards&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fjournal&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fjourn al

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=rewards&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fnews&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faithalone.org%2Fnews

If you believe that there are rewards, what are they?

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 11:51 AM
Read the many GES articles.

Post what you conclude if you want to discuss rewards.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 12:04 PM
Read the many GES articles.

Post what you conclude if you want to discuss rewards.

What kind of a stupid comment is that?

Why don't you read them, and tell us what they say?

You said...

"I think that rewards are a major incentive for service to God."

If that is what YOU "think", then tell us why. Or are you just agreeing with someone else even though you have no idea what they said?

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 12:33 PM
Forget it, then.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 01:01 PM
Forget it, then.No problem. I read the articles, and they were filled with nonsense.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 04:41 PM
Sozo, I meant no harm.

If you don't believe in rewards, what about these?

Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 04:45 PM
You make a big deal out of that a Christian can't sin.

And maybe you should think that way when you are reading 1 John.

But of course a Christian can sin.

And how!

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 04:57 PM
Sozo, I meant no harm.

If you don't believe in rewards, what about these?

Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

The only reward is Christ, and in Him everyone has all things that God has prepared for them.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 04:58 PM
You make a big deal out of that a Christian can't sin.

And maybe you should think that way when you are reading 1 John.

But of course a Christian can sin.

And how!1 John does not teach that Christians sin. In fact, it says exactly the opposite.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:05 PM
The only reward is Christ, and in Him everyone has all things that God has prepared for them.
Can't one in Christ receive rewards prepared for him?

Rewards are not payment, since we are saved by grace.

I always thought that GES views and People To People views were mostly compatible.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:08 PM
Whatever you are using for incentive for service to God isn't quite getting the job done.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:15 PM
Can't one in Christ receive rewards prepared for him?

Rewards are not payment, since we are saved by grace.

I always thought that GES views and People To People views were mostly compatible.I have no idea what Bob thinks about Zane Hodges, but Zane is wrong about rewards.

In this life, we reap what we sow, and so there are rewards, but not because God gives them to you.

If you are speaking of rewards in heaven, there are none beyond what everyone receives in Christ.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:17 PM
Whatever you are using for incentive for service to God isn't quite getting the job done.

What does that mean? I'm not "using" anything.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:21 PM
I've read Love Is Now by Peter E. Gillquist too.

He turned Greek Orthodox.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:25 PM
I've read God Is Love by Peter E. Gillquist too.

That is a great book!! :thumb:

But, it is called Love Is Now

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:31 PM
I edited it.

Sozo, people who don't believe in grace so much like the Calvinists don't believe much in rewards.

I think your position on rewards is unbiblical.

You're too good a man to have running around TOL spreading falsehood.

Prepare for battle!

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 05:36 PM
The rewards we recieve are to glorify God not ourselves........

Copy and Paste




Biblical Principles for Christian Maturity

Chapter 25 - Heavenly Rewards
I Cor.3:11-15; II Cor.5:10
Christians will never be judged with regard to their eternal Salvation, that is a certainty. But, every Christian will someday be judged according to their works. Salvation itself is a gift of God, not according to one's works (Eph.2:8,9).
The judgment of believer's works will be on the basis of how one has lived for God after becoming a Christian, and the result will be either a reward (called a "crown") or a lack of reward. The believer's sins were judged at the cross of Christ; the believer's works will be judged as to how one has utilized his gifts/talents/resources for the Lord.

We are commended to be ready, so that "When He shall appear, we may be confident, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming" (I John 2:28). Perhaps our sorrow at the loss of any reward, may be the tears that God will wipe away (Rev. 21:4).

I. That Which Leads To A Reward - In I Corinthians 4:1- 5 we see that being stewards of the mysteries of God prepares us for eternal reward. A mystery in Scripture is not something mysterious, as we might think, but refers to something that in the ages past was hidden from our understanding, and is now revealed by God to us. In this sense our stewardship of the "mystery" is understood in Colossians 1:27 where we see that as God's children we are to proclaim the truth of God, "Which is, Christ in you the hope of glory". Our commission as part of the church, the body of believers, as stated in Matthew 28:19,20 is to proclaim the message of Salvation to all mankind. This was revealed by Christ to the Church when He came the first time. Faithfulness in carrying out our commission prepares us for reward.

As stewards of God's grace, we also are responsible for being trustees of our material possessions, as to how we use them. The way of the world is to selfishly acquire and use what can be gained. For the Christian there is a Biblical formula as to the gathering and dispensing of one's material wealth (See: Matt. 25:14-30; Gal. 6:7; Matt. 6:20; II Cor. 8:12;9:6). Proper utilization of one's material possessions on earth, will prepare one for an eternal heavenly reward.

Since the Christian lives in basically a self centered and greedy world, we are commended to do good unto others, and be of help to them (Gal. 6:2), especially unto the family of believers (Gal. 6:10). A kind word, even a "cup of cold water" will prepare us for eternal reward.

Persistence in life, as a Christian, since we live in an evil environment, will prepare us for eternal blessings and fulfillment. This too prepares us for a reward (Matt. 5:11,12; Luke 6:22,23; II Tim. 2:12).

II. The Time of the Reward - In Matthew 16:27 we see that it will come on the day when Christ shall return, and "Then shall He reward everyone according to his works". This is emphasized again in Revelation 22:12.

III. The Nature of the Reward - The Bible envisions the rewards as "Crowns" to be bestowed on the victor. Our responsibility today is to run the race of life, keeping our eye on Jesus Christ, and trusting Him for our eternal reward. See: Hebrews 12:1,2.

1. An Incorruptible Crown (I Cor. 9:25-27). This is God's reward to those who strive for mastery in the Christian faith. Since God's primary desire for His children is to become more Christlike in character, it behooves us to keep our eyes on Him, and mold our character after the Lord. As we meditate on the Word of God (Joshua 1:8; Ps.1:2,3), and allow the Holy Spirit to give us wisdom and discernment (I Cor. 2:14; James 1:5), then our lives come into conformity to God's design for us. Then we will be able to be a good witness for Him (I Peter 3:14-17).

2. A Crown of Rejoicing - (I Thess. 2:19). This reward is for souls we win to the Lord. We are to let the light of the Gospel of Christ shine through us to others, so that they may see Christ in us (Matt. 5:16). A Christ like life is the best witness, for others are more impressed by who we are, than by what we say. In Prov. 11:30 it says, "He that winneth souls is wise".

3. A Crown of Glory - (I Peter 5:4). This reward is to the shepherds of the flock, who have oversight, but are also to be examples. Though this primarily refers to the spiritual leaders in the family of God, I believe it also pertains to parents who raise children as overseers, to faithful Sunday School teachers who minister to their classes, to anyone who influences others in the things of God's Word. In this sense each one does shepherding, and God is not unmindful of that influence we have in shaping other's character for the Lord Jesus Christ. It too will gain the reward. This should be an encouragement to every Christian.

4. The Crown of Life - (James 1:12; Rev. 2:10). To those who endure the testings of life and are faithful, God will give a reward. God's children, past and present, have endured many trials and tribulations, even unto death for His name sake, and God is keeping a record, and they will not lose their reward for faithfulness.

5. The Crown of Righteousness - (II Tim. 4:8). Christians anticipate Christ's return. To those who long for and anxiously await His coming, God promises this reward. The anticipation of Christ's return, in this day of increasing wickedness becomes even greater in the lives of those who know Him and love His Word. This love knows no bounds.

The Apostle Paul had a fitting conclusion to the understanding of these rewards in II Timothy 2:10-15, when he instructs us to, "Give diligence to your exhibit of works before God, that you may be approved of Him, a workman who has no cause for shame, because you have cut in straight lines the truth of His word". What an admonition to us today.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:39 PM
1 John does not teach that Christians sin. In fact, it says exactly the opposite.
Does it not make sense that a Christian's standing cannot sin, but his state does?

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:41 PM
I edited it.

Sozo, people who don't believe in grace so much like the Calvinists don't believe much in rewards.

I think your position on rewards is unbiblical.

You're too good a man to have running around TOL spreading falsehood.

Prepare for battle!

I'm not "good" at all. Where do you get that?

I reject your slander. You have NO biblical evidence.

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 05:44 PM
The only reward is Christ, and in Him everyone has all things that God has prepared for them.
Not everyone gets the same rewards, but yes what God has prepared for them.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
Does it not make sense that a Christian's standing cannot sin, but his state does?The identity of a Christian is in the Spirit, not in the flesh. The flesh cannot please God. What you do in your body is always guilty of one sin or another. Who you are in Christ is free from sin.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
Okay, it was your standing that was good.

I'm sorry for slandering your state.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:46 PM
Not everyone gets the same rewards, but yes what God has prepared for them.


Nonsense.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 05:48 PM
Okay, it was your standing that was good.

I'm sorry for slandering your state.You don't know what the hell are you talking about?

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:09 PM
Nice post, Silk Queen.

Are you an Acts 2 Dispensationalist?

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 06:15 PM
Nice post, Silk Queen.

Are you an Acts 2 Dispensationalist?
Thank you, No, I really just read the bible as literal as much as possible.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 06:19 PM
Thank you, No, I really just read the bible as literal as much as possible.


The two of you are morons. You can't even comprehend simple bible verses. It's pathetic.

You simply applied your own personal beliefs into verses that don't say anything close to what you think they say.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:19 PM
Hmm, that sounds like Acts 2 dispensationalism.

I see that post came from a Campus Crusade site.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:22 PM
A lot of "difficult passages" have rewards as the solution to understanding them.

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 06:24 PM
Hmm, that sounds like Acts 2 dispensationalism.

I see that post came from a Campus Crusade site.
Yes but there are a few things I don't totally believe.
Sozo I am thick skinned I remember you from my first few posts a long while back...You called me an idiot then too. :wave2:

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 06:27 PM
Yes but there are a few things I don't totally believe.
Sozo I am thick skinned I remember you from my first few posts a long while back...You called me an idiot then too. :wave2:


Do you seriously not understand that the verses in Corinthians are dealing with the fruit of sharing Christ? With building on the foundation of the gospel?

Have you read the context?

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:33 PM
Jesus Is Coming Again

The reference to casting crowns at the feet of the Lord is based on an improper understanding of Rev 4:9-11.

Commonly the reference to crown casting is understood to mean that at the Judgment Seat of Christ believers will give back the crowns they receive. They will place them at the feet of Jesus, before His throne. These crowns, representing all rewards given, will return to their rightful owner. Thus no believer will have any more glory, honor, or power in the millennial or eternal kingdom than any other believer will.

Clearly from many passages (e.g., Matt 6:19-21; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 2:17, 26) some believers will have treasure, rulership, and other rewards, and some will not. The crown casting of Rev 4:9-11 does not change that.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 06:36 PM
lightninboy... if you are going to quote other people word for word in your posts, then you need to credit them.

I believe that TOL frowns on such behavior.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:40 PM
Mine came from GES and hers came from Campus Crusade.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 06:43 PM
When you two are ready to use your own minds, then I will be happy to have a discussion with you about it.

I have already spent enough of my time, over the years, debating all those guys.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 06:46 PM
We've got lots of verses defending rewards.

What verses defend your view?

You mean you've debated against GES and Campus Crusade for years?

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 06:49 PM
We've got lots of verses defending rewards.

What verses defend your view?

No, you do not.

The "reward" verses that Silk Queen copied only speak of the same rewards that I spoke of, and/or the rewards that we reap from what we sow in this life.

You have nothing.

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 07:01 PM
The rewards is doing Jesus will, I would like rewards to present to HIM but if I make it to heaven that will be a nice reward.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 07:06 PM
How you live on earth affects your state for eternity.

Millard J. Erickson said so in Christian Theology

Matthew 6:19-24.

Minute by minute
You live and new choices are made
Building eternity
Every stone will be laid

Silk Queen
February 2nd, 2007, 07:07 PM
How you live on earth affects your state for eternity.

Millard J. Erickson said so in Christian Theology

Matthew 6:19-24.

Minute by minute
You live and new choices are made
Building eternity
Every stone will be laid
Yes faith without works is dead.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 07:20 PM
First Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Philippians 3:11, 14
If, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection of the dead… I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

If the prize in those verses isn't salvation to be attained, it is obviously exactly a prize!

When I race, I race for a prize.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 07:32 PM
Paul is giving an illustration about not doing something in vain. He talks about giving every effort to win men's souls. The prize is winning men's souls. He becomes all things to all men that he may win some. He doesn't box as if he is beating the air, but gives all of his effort to win.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 07:42 PM
If there will be equality in heaven, then the whole doctrine of rewards would mean absolutely nothing and it would be utterly stupid for Paul to say "I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27).

The Scripture is loaded with this teaching and how we keep missing it I can’t understand. For example, Luke 19:12-27. Matthew 25:14-30. In the final analysis, the test is faithfulness to what I was given. It isn’t the athlete that runs the fastest, but the one who keeps the rules and finishes the race (see 2 Tim 2:5; 4:7-8).

God puts that in another picture and I want to take you to this one more picture in Revelation 19. In verses 7-8, we have a beautiful scene. Now you ask yourself, what is this fine linen? What is this picture? What is this wardrobe he’s talking about here? Well, you don’t have to look very far; he explains it. The next phrase reads, "For the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." The righteousnesses of the saints are the righteous acts the saints have done since they’ve been declared righteous. We are today building our wardrobe that we shall wear in the life to come.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 07:51 PM
If there will be equality in heaven, then the whole doctrine of rewards would mean absolutely nothing and it would be utterly stupid for Paul to say "I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others I myself should become disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27).

Wow, you really are a moron.

"What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge , so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law, though not being myself under the Law, that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some. And I do all things for the sake of the gospel, that I may become a fellow partaker of it. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."

You have a perverted view of your purpose.

Sozo
February 2nd, 2007, 07:54 PM
God puts that in another picture and I want to take you to this one more picture in Revelation 19. In verses 7-8, we have a beautiful scene. Now you ask yourself, what is this fine linen? What is this picture? What is this wardrobe he’s talking about here? Well, you don’t have to look very far; he explains it. The next phrase reads, "For the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints." The righteousnesses of the saints are the righteous acts the saints have done since they’ve been declared righteous. We are today building our wardrobe that we shall wear in the life to come.It's amazing how many self-righteous believers there are.

Who is at work in you?

When were the works prepared?

Whose works are they?

Whose deeds are righteous?

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 08:03 PM
How beautiful the radient Bride
who waits for her Groom
with His light in her eyes.
How beautiful when humble hearts give
the fruit of pure lives
so that others may live.
How beautiful
how beautiful

how beautiful is the body of Christ.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 08:15 PM
Millennial-only Rewards? After the Millennium, all believers revert to an equal position?

That position does not square with many passages of Scripture:

Matthew 6:19-21 Treasure in heaven is not temporary like earthly treasure. Even if treasure lasted for 1000 years (Methusaleh had 969 years of earthly treasure), it would be temporary.

Peter speaks of a rich entrance to "the eternal kingdom" in 2 Peter 1:11. Clearly that includes both the Millennium and the kingdom on the new earth afterwards. The millennial kingdom is the first 1000 years of the eternal kingdom (Daniel's 5th kingdom. That rich entrance lasts forever.

Revelation 3:21. Jesus will sit on His father's throne and rule forever. So those who rule with him will rule forever.

Revelation 22:14. These rewards are on the new earth in the eternal kingdom. They are forever.

Daniel 12:3. This shining glory will last forever.

Hebrews 11. The OT saints mentioned were seeking eternal rewards, not rewards that lasted 1000 years. The better resurrection of 11:35 is clearly a better experience of the resurrection life. All believers will be in the kingdom forever. All will not have the most abundant experience.

This is why eternal rewards are so important. Because they are indeed eternal. If we squander opportunities now, we will experience less forever than we could have.

We should all seek to glorify Christ as fully as we can now so that we can glorify Him as fully as we can forever.

lightninboy
February 2nd, 2007, 08:29 PM
Thomas R. Schreiner and Ardel B. Caneday, The Race Set Before Us: A Biblical Theology of Perseverance & Assurance (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001.

Loss-of-salvation view. They say, “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose salvation. The prize is eternal life. This is Arminianism.

Loss-of-rewards view. “The racetrack represents salvation. Christians may abandon the race and lose rewards. The prize is not salvation but rewards. This is the Free Grace position. The authors cite Grace Evangelical Society, Zane Hodges, The New Scofield Reference Bible, R. T. Kendall, Charles Stanley, Erwin Lutzer, Michael Eaton, John Hart, and me as advocating this position.

Tests-of-genuineness view. The authors say that this is “one of the most common views in evangelicalism today. The racetrack represents salvation. To abandon the race proves one was never saved. Christians run with their back toward the goal to assess their progress on the track. The prize is salvation, eternal life. Warnings and admonitions call for retrospective and introspective self-examination to assess whether one is already saved. This is the traditional Reformed view, also known as Lordship Salvation.

godrulz
February 2nd, 2007, 11:33 PM
The two of you are morons. You can't even comprehend simple bible verses. It's pathetic.

You simply applied your own personal beliefs into verses that don't say anything close to what you think they say.


I Cor. 3; 2 Cor. 5.....I did not read Silk's article, but it merits refutation from you.

Faith vs unbelief determines destiny (heaven or hell).

Works/stewardship determines degrees of rewards or responsibilities (sins determines degree of punishment for unbelievers...a good Mormon and Hitler end up in hell, but not with the identical degree of punishment that Satan has...Tartarus is different than Sheol, for example).

The Bema Judgment Seat of Christ is for believers. It is a judgment of works, not sins, since our sins were judged at the cross. The Great White Throne judgment also mentions works and is mostly unbelievers (and some millennium saints who will not go to the lake of fire). There unbelief damns them, but works are also considered...

We all must give an account for our lives (time, talents, treasures= stewardship, not salvation), even though our sins are covered.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 12:02 AM
Belivers have already been judged, godrulz. You need to read a bible.

Teaching rewards (other than what I mentioned), is unbiblical and blasphemous.

Your heart is filled with your own righteousness. You will be disappointed when they only thing you receive from Jesus are the words that He never knew you.

YOU have absolutely ZERO biblical evidence of there being rewards in heaven, other than those given to those who are in Christ and are because of His works, not yours.

You are a false teacher.

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 01:35 AM
Belivers have already been judged, godrulz. You need to read a bible.

Teaching rewards (other than what I mentioned), is unbiblical and blasphemous.

Your heart is filled with your own righteousness. You will be disappointed when they only thing you receive from Jesus are the words that He never knew you.

YOU have absolutely ZERO biblical evidence of there being rewards in heaven, other than those given to those who are in Christ and are because of His works, not yours.

You are a false teacher.


Funny...Paul taught the Bema Seat of Christ which was based on rewards/works. Time to review your eschatology.

God gets all the glory, but stewardship is a biblical theme. In your desperate attempt to avoid self-righteousness, you have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and swung the pendulum to another extreme leading to unbalanced truth.

The exact nature of rewards is speculative, but their reality is hinted at from biblical principles. Take off the blinders. There is more biblical truth out there than you seem to be aware of due to your God-in-a-box views.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 01:51 AM
Put up or shut up, godrulz.

We are sick of your big mouth, and no biblical evidence.

Benjamin
February 3rd, 2007, 04:06 AM
Google it or look in the dictionary. I think value has something to do with worth. God is the most valuable being in the universe because He is the perfect uncreated Creator. His value is the basis for our obligation to love, serve, and worship Him. If God knew of a more valuable being, He would tell us to worship that being. His worth and value are due to His inherent character and attributes. Are you saying God is worthless? Value has different meanings. Surely one of them should not sound foreign to you in a theological context. Value obligates. If God had no value, He would have no authority to command worship and obedience. Winkie Pratney, Finney, and others will help you understand this biblical concept.

You really have no right to demand answers from me. You lost your right with your constant attack of my Christian experience (worse than Hitler, Satan worshipper, etc.).

Feel free to put me on ignore. You waste my time and others with your narrow mind. If you hope to teach and influence, perhaps you should be more teachable.

Good post.

Benjamin
February 3rd, 2007, 04:09 AM
How about the both of you hold off until Bob Hill responds OK?

That was a lazy response.

I like you Knight, but if your older child is slamming your younger, more thoughtful kid into a telephone pole- do you spank both of them?

Come on.

Benjamin
February 3rd, 2007, 04:14 AM
How much endurance? It doesn’t say. But that’s the big question. I don’t think there can be many lapses, but we know God is merciful. But, He’s also fair. So when it says “If we deny Him, He also will deny us”, I think that means He will deny us reigning with Him if we deny Him by our life or His word.

2 Ti 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.
Our salvation is not on the line. Even if we become faithless (This word has a number of meanings. Here’s BGD edited: 1. disbelieve, refuse to believe—a. Mk 16:11; Lk 24:41. aypistoun refused to believe Ac 28:24; a. someone Lk 24:11. b. the relig. sense Mk 16:16. the unbelievers of pagans and Jews 1 Pt 2:7. 2. be unfaithful Ro 3:3; 2 Ti 2:13.), no matter, we have eternal security. We cannot lose our salvation. He cannot deny the body of Christ.



What a ball of Scripture twisting you have tallied up!

You twist the Word of God until it makes you feel comfortable- I suggest fearing God before you talk next time. Heretic.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 06:06 AM
It appears that Bob Hill and I agree on the matter of rewards.

Jerry Shugart
February 3rd, 2007, 10:19 AM
I just cannot understand how anyone cannot see that the following verses are speaking of rewards which Christians will receive:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

These verses are not speaking about "salvation",because if it is of "works" then it is not of grace.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 10:30 AM
I just cannot understand how anyone cannot see that the following verses are speaking of rewards which Christians will receive:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

These verses are not speaking about "salvation",because if it is of "works" then it is not of grace.

All who come to Christ, receive THE reward, which is His life, and in His life we receive all that God has prepared for us.

The crown(s) that believers receive are life, righteousness, and glory through faith in Jesus Christ. All those who are in Christ receive them.

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation. They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith; not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.

Preaching a gospel of works, is building on the foundation with wood, hay, and straw, and the reward will be burned up. His efforts will produce nothing of value in the hearts of those whom he has shared.


I suggest you read the entire chapter.

Silk Queen
February 3rd, 2007, 10:33 AM
I just cannot understand how anyone cannot see that the following verses are speaking of rewards which Christians will receive:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

These verses are not speaking about "salvation",because if it is of "works" then it is not of grace.
It is written through the new testament of rewards.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 10:50 AM
It is written through the new testament of rewards.Heaven is not a place for earthly reflection, because the things of this world have no relevance to those things which are eternal.
Your mind will be free from envy, and so there will be no ability to perceive one thing as having more value than another. This is why the entire bogus idea of rewards that is made up by mainstream Christianity, and not biblical, has damaged the furtherance of the gospel. Both Jesus and Paul, had to confront those who were always motivated by the prospect of rewards, when there is only one reward, which is THE eternal inheritance.

kmoney
February 3rd, 2007, 01:15 PM
Sozo,

What do you think the judgment seat in 2Cor 5 is about?

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 02:55 PM
[Does he [the master] thank the servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, "We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do."]

“Luke 17:9-10 shows that the doctrine of rewards should not be a motivator for the Christian. In other words, we should not expect to receive rewards just because we are doing what we are supposed to be doing.”

This is groundless. Clearly our Lord taught in Matt 6:19-21 that we are to be motivated, at least in part, by the doctrine of rewards. He commanded us to set our hearts on treasure in heaven. So did the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 3:10-15; 9:24-27; and 2 Cor 5:9-10. So did the apostle John in 1 John 2:28. So did the apostle Peter in 1 Pet 4:13 and 5:1-4.

Luke 17:9-10 teaches that God is not inherently obligated to reward us for our labors. The reason He will reward us is that He chooses to do so, not because He has to.

The word translated "unprofitable" can also be understood as "not needed" (see Ethelbert Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, p. 833). Our attitude should be that God doesn't need us. His kingdom work will go on just fine without us. It's our privilege to be able to serve Him. God could use someone else. He could use an angel, or He could do it Himself.

Lordship Salvation theology has little or no place for eternal rewards. According to its teaching, entrance into the kingdom is itself a reward for work done.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 03:12 PM
And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. -Rev 22:12

This is a clear and definitive statement on the subject of rewards by the Lord Himself. Not to believe in rewards is not to believe His words.
Some Christians are troubled by the doctrine of rewards because this doctrine seems to suggest "merit" instead of "grace."
There is no way to escape the obvious implications that "rewards" are earned.
If we claim that rewards must be "by grace" then we are saying they can have nothing to do with "works." But if we say that, we contradict our Lord's words which relate His "reward" to each man's "work.;"
God gives us His salvation, but He pays us for our good works.
Another problem some Christians have with the doctrine of rewards is that this doctrine seems to them to appeal to our "selfishness." Such Christians may go on to say that we do not need to be motivated this way. Instead, we ought to do all that we do for God out of love and gratitude to Him.
Not only is a doctrine of rewards taught in Scripture, but we are actually commanded to pursue them.
Matt 6:19-21: We may observe here that our Lord does not present the pursuit of heavenly treasure as though it were optional. On the contrary, it is clear that He wants every disciple of His to lay up this celestial wealth.
God knows better than we do what will captivate our hearts for Him. Evidently, rewards play a significant role in this.
It may sound pious for someone to say: "I am not interested in rewards! I serve God out of love and gratitude alone!" But such a person is claiming to be more loftily motivated than even the apostle Paul himself!
We believe that no motivation encouraged by the Lord Jesus and His apostles could ever possibly be termed "selfish"!
What is wrong, in fact, is our own incorrect view of "selfishness." Scripture does not teach us to be uninterested in our own happiness or well-being. The very desire to escape eternal damnation is a legitimate and urgent self-interest. The instinct to preserve our lives is the same. Nor are pleasure and enjoyment illegitimate experiences.
Loveless activity will no doubt go up in billows of smoke at the Judgment Seat of Christ as though it were so much wood, hay, or stubble (1 Cor 3:11-15).
The doctrine of the Judgment Seat of Christ and of rewards is not merely not selfish. It is one of the strongest scriptural motivations for an unselfish, loving, and merciful lifestyle!

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
-2 Tim 4:7-8

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 03:25 PM
It is my contention that just as a car breaks down without oil, the gospel of grace breaks down quickly without the doctrine of rewards.
Justification and sanctification are not the same. Neither are eternal salvation and eternal rewards.
"For the Son of Man will come... and then he will reward each according to his works" (Matt 16:27).
The word selfish has two main meanings: greedy at the expense of others, and intent on personal gain. The former is clearly unbiblical. The latter is not. Even the Lord Jesus endured the cross "for the joy set before Him" (Hebrews 12:1). The Hebrews 11 Hall of Fame is filled with people who were motivated by eternal rewards.
We are not competing against each other for some limited amount of rewards. God has an infinite amount of rewards to give. The more we encourage and help others now, the more we will all be rewarded later.
Matthew 20:1-16
The Parable of the Day Laborers does teach that laborers who worked different numbers of hours were equally paid. The person who worked one hour was paid one denarius—so the persons who worked 3, 6, 9, and 12 hours. One denarius was paid to all.
Doesn’t this prove that we will all get the same amount of eternal rewards? No one will get more or less than any other believer, right?
But wait a minute. If that is true, then why did the Lord speak in Luke 19 of one servant who will rule over 10 cities and another over 5 and another over none? Clearly there the rewards are not identical.
The Parable of the Day Laborers shows that God will not penalize a person for coming to faith in Christ shortly before they go to be with the Lord. All who serve God wholeheartedly during their Christian life, whether they are Christians for one year or 50 years before going to be with the Lord, will be rewarded equally.
But if a person comes to faith and doesn’t serve Christ wholeheartedly throughout his Christian life, he will not get the same degree of reward as one who does. Just as employers don’t pay all employees exactly the same wage, neither does God (Matt 16:27).
Won’t differences in rewards lead to jealousy in the kingdom?
This might be true if sin were possible for glorified saints. However, glorified saints will never sin. And since jealousy is sin, no glorified saint will experience jealousy.
A glorified saint might regret that he didn’t do more in this life for Christ, which is not sin. But he will be content with what he has, for all glorified saints will be content. Even in this life it is possible to not be jealous of those who have more.
God could have chosen not to reward faithfulness. He could still have motivated us to obey Him out of gratitude, present blessings and chastisement, and fear of rebuke at the bema. However, He chose to obligate Himself to recompense us for the work that we do. So our attitude should be one of humility, for we are merely servants. And we should be grateful that God has chosen to reward our obedience.
Revelation 4:9-10 does not refer to a one-time event. Most miss the fact that the first word in verse 9 is "whenever." Day after day these angelic beings are glorifying God and casting their crowns at His feet. They do not lose the crowns. They merely keep putting them at Jesus’ feet to honor Him.
I have found that the teaching of rewards energizes and motivates people.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 03:38 PM
2 Corinthians 5:10,"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."
REGENERATION IS BY FAITH. . . .EVALUATION IS BY WORKS!
Every believer's Christian life will be subject to evaluation by Christ. This judgment for all Church age believers will take place immediately after the Rapture of the Church at the Bema or Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom 14:10; 1 Cor 3:10-4:5; 2 Cor 5:10-14). The end result of this evaluation of the believer's works will be the bestowal or denial of special rewards.
For the faithful Christian it will result in special reward being given in proportion to the quality of his works (see Luke 19:11-27). 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 the Bema.
In addition to allowing us to correctly understand various difficult passages and to properly correlate different types of verses, this principle ought to act as a powerful motivator to each of us as believers to live out a faithful life of rigorous discipleship.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 03:46 PM
Did Jesus in Matthew 10:32-33 teach that we must confess our faith in Him in order to get into heaven? Let's see.
The context clearly shows that Jesus was instructing His disciples about principles of discipleship, not justification. He warned them that men would persecute and possibly even kill them. Yet, they were not to be afraid. Why? Because, first, as believers (all but Judas) they were bound for heaven no matter what pain they might experience here (cf. Luke 10:20; John 13:10). And because, second, they would be rewarded in heaven for any suffering they endured here for Jesus' sake. Earlier in Matthew Jesus is recorded as having taught His disciples that their reward in heaven would be great if they suffered persecution on account of Him (Matt. 5:11-12). Getting into heaven is not a reward for suffering. Notice in Matthew 10 immediately after the verses in question that Jesus spoke of being "worthy of Me" by willingly suffering for confessing Him. This is clearly a rewards idea. No one is worthy of Christ in terms of entrance into the kingdom. However, there is a common New Testament teaching that by serving Christ faithfully now we can in a sense become worthy to be a co-ruler with Him in His kingdom (cf. 2 Thess. 1:5; 2 Tim. 2:12; 1 Pet. 2:l9; 4:l3; Rev. 2:26; 3:4-5, 21). Notice, too, that verses 41 and 42 deal with the idea of rewards for faithfulness. Giving food, shelter, and financial help to one of God's true spokesmen means that we will share in his ministry and his reward (Matt. 10:41). Giving even a cup of cold water in Jesus' name is rewardable (Matt. 10: 42). Clearly, then, confessing Christ, especially when persecution is likely to result, is very rewardable. Jesus is talking about rewards for faithfulness, not redemption for faithfulness.
What, then, did Jesus mean in verses 32 and 33 when He said that He would confess before the Father those who confessed Him and deny before the Father those who denied Him? He meant simply that. At the place where disciples are to be judged, the Judgment Seat of Christ, Jesus will praise or confess before the Father those who consistently by their words and deeds confessed Him before men. However, disciples who failed to consistently confess Him before men by their words and deeds will find that He will deny him something before the Father. What? Rewards. He will deny faithless disciples treasure in heaven and/or the privilege of ruling with Him. (Cf. Luke 19:11-26; 1 Cor. 3:10-15; 9:24-27; 2 Cor. 5:10; 1 Jn. 2:28.)
There is a verse which is conceptually parallel to this one, 2 Timothy 2:12.
Here is a powerful passage. If I deny Christ by my words and deeds, He will deny me the opportunity to reign with Him. Confessing Christ may lead to persecution and loss now, but ultimately it leads to blessings and gain forever. Oh, how I long to please Him and have Him confess me before the Father! What a day of rejoicing that would be!

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 03:54 PM
He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
-Revelation 3:5

There is a well-established figure of speech called litotes or understatement In this figure of speech a positive point is made by denying its opposite.
When the Lord says that He won't blot the name of the overcoming believer from the Book of Life, He means that He will give the overcomer a special fullness of life forever.
We know some of what this superlative experience will include: wearing special white garments (Rev 3:4-5), ruling with Christ (Rev 2:26-27; 3:21), eating the fruit of the tree of life (Rev 2:7), eating hidden manna (Rev 2:17), and receiving a white stone engraved with your own special name that only the Lord and you will know (Rev 2:17). None of these things is equivalent to eternal salvation. None of these things is required for kingdom entrance. These are all rewards awaiting the overcoming believer.
We don't know all that is in store for the overcoming believer. But from what we are told in the seven letters, we know that it will be something no one will want to miss.
William Fuller, who defends this understanding of Rev 3:5, writes, "A command that everyone keeps is superfluous, and a reward that everyone receives for a virtue that everyone has is nonsense."
Jesus said, "I came that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10b). All believers have, and will forever have, life. Only overcoming believers have, and will forever have, life more abundantly. Paul echoed this same theme when he ended his letter to the Galatians with these words: "And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart" (Gal 6:9).
For further discussion, see Zane C. Hodges's, Grace in Eclipse, Second Edition (Dallas, TX: Redencion Viva, 1985, 1987).

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 04:13 PM
There are four strong motivations for people who know that they are secure forever to turn away from sin and to turn in obedience to serve God wholeheartedly day by day.
First, gratitude is a powerful motivator. As the famous British missionary of the last century, C. T. Studd once said, "If Christ be God and died for me, then there is nothing too great I can do for Him." Many cultures teach that if a person saves your life you are obligated to serve him for the rest of your life. The Apostle Paul said, "The love of Christ constrains us" (2 Cor 5:14).
Second, God rewards obedience with blessings here and now. Those who serve God faithfully receive love, joy, peace and other inner blessings which we all want and need. While health and wealth may or may not follow, joy and peace are guaranteed for faithful obedience.
Third, God disciplines us when we disobey Him. While every problem in this life is not a result of some sin in our lives, some surely are. The Lord promises not to spare the rod when we need it. In short, sin never pays. The pain which follows sin far outweighs its temporary pleasures.
Fourth, God rewards obedience with blessings forever. This life is like a proving ground. If we prove to have lived our lives in faithful service of our Lord, He will praise us at his judgment seat (the Judgment Seat of Christ) saying, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant" and He will give us wonderful rewards. All in God's kingdom will have joy; however, those who have lived for Him in this life will have a greater capacity for joy. And, as a result, they will experience a richer degree of joy than those who did not live for God in the life.
We do not need the fear of hell to motivate us. Indeed, if we fear hell it is because we do not believe that Jesus Christ has guaranteed us eternal life.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 04:32 PM
There are four strong motivations for people who know that they are secure forever to turn away from sin and to turn in obedience to serve God wholeheartedly day by day.
First, gratitude is a powerful motivator. As the famous British missionary of the last century, C. T. Studd once said, "If Christ be God and died for me, then there is nothing too great I can do for Him." Many cultures teach that if a person saves your life you are obligated to serve him for the rest of your life. The Apostle Paul said, "The love of Christ constrains us" (2 Cor 5:14).



First of all, NO ONE "turns away from sin". That is blasphemy! Jesus shed His blood for sin ONCE for ALL.

C.T. Studd is an idiot.

"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen."

No can give something to God, that God is obligated to repay.


God rewards obedience with blessings here and now. Only someone who is demonically inspired would say such a thing.

I wonder if that pervert is also willing to receive the curses when he falls short?

What incredible pride and arrogance. :nono:

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 04:36 PM
Revelation 22:14-17
Some pastors and theologians use Rev 21:8 and 22:15 to try and prove that all "true" Christians persevere in the faith.
Verse 14 of Revelation 22 reads, "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."
Two things are promised to the one who obeys the Lord as a characteristic pattern of life (no one obeys perfectly, cf. 1 John 1:8, 10): (1) the right to the tree of life and (2) the right to enter into the New Jerusalem through its gates. At first reading these may seem to be things which are true of all believers. However, that is not the case.
What is "the right to the tree of life"? It is the right to eat its fruits. Compare Rev 2:7, "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life."
The tree is called "the tree of life" for a reason. It will evidently grant to the believer who eats of it a special abundance of life.
It is true, of course, that the tree of life was in the Garden of Eden as well. However, its fruit would not have had the same effect on fallen people with ungloried bodies as it will have in eternity on saints with glorified bodies. The tree of life will only grant abundant life to those with glorified bodies. According to Gen 3:22 the reason God removed Adam from the garden was "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life and live forever." Had he eaten that fruit Adam would have lived forever in a state of separation from God (spiritual death). of course, since the tree of life was never intended for that terrible purpose, God took it away from man until the eternal kingdom.
Most likely all believers will be going in and out of the New Jerusalem from time to time. Some believers in eternity will have their primary dwelling in the New Jerusalem. Surely those people will sometimes venture outside its walls, visit the rest of the new earth, and return. And, many saints will not live in the New Jerusalem! According to Rev 21:24 the new earth will contain many nations and the kings of those nations will travel to the New Jerusalem to take tribute to the King of kings. It is likely that all who live in these nations will make trips to the New Jerusalem.
For another thing, the gates will not be the only way by which someone could enter the city. For example, people might travel by air, flying over the walls. Or, they might come in on a subway, going under the walls. It is even conceivable in light of John 20 that people might travel right through the walls!
Finally, we know from the OT that the gates of ancient cities were places of honor. The respected elders of the community were allowed to sit in the gates and it was from there that they rendered judgments in legal matters (cf. Gen 19:1; 22:17; Deut 22:15; 25:7; Ruth 4:1-12).
Verse 15 is describing the condition of people at that time, not their experience in this life. No believer with a glorified body could be described as being a dog, a sorcerer, a sexually immoral person, a murderer, an idolater, or a liar. While those things were true of giants of the faith like David (2 Samuel) and Solomon (1 Kings 11) in their experiences prior to death, they could never be true of saints with glorified bodies.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 04:38 PM
lightinboy... I am going to ask the moderators that you stop spamming this thread, and that your posts be removed.

You are not responding to any posts but are purposely trying to bury the ones that are posted with writings that are not your own.

Start your own thread.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 04:42 PM
What kind of a stupid comment is that?

Why don't you read them, and tell us what they say?

You said...

"I think that rewards are a major incentive for service to God."

If that is what YOU "think", then tell us why. Or are you just agreeing with someone else even though you have no idea what they said?

You said "Why don't you read them, and tell us what they say?"

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 04:45 PM
You said "Why don't you read them, and tell us what they say?"That is not what you are doing. You are still posting other peoples writings.

YOU are not saying anything.

I believe you have been warned about doing this on other threads. You need to stop.

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 04:47 PM
But I agree with GES and Campus Crusade and the Bible.

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 05:17 PM
Sozo,

What do you think the judgment seat in 2Cor 5 is about?

Sorry this is so long, but context is essential!

2 Corinthans 4:7-11

"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassing greatness of the power may be of God and not from ourselves; we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not despairing; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our body. For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus' sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh."

Paul is speaking to the Corinthians about the desire to be done with these bodies and to be present with the Lord, but that they not lose heart, because what they do in their bodies is not done in vain. We have an eternal reward in that which we have suffered in our bodies. Christ is at work in us and through us. Those whose deeds are done apart from Christ are dead works, and will be judged as such. Because He is at work in us and through us, then the works that He does, have eternal significance.

Those who do not have Christ, are working towards nothing. Knowing that they will receive eternal condemnation, we are compelled to persuade them to be reconciled to God!

2 Corinthians 5

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart. For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause. For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

lightninboy
February 3rd, 2007, 09:00 PM
If I’m unwilling to be sure the job is done
Then I compel the King to find another one
Who will be diligent to carry out the plan
Let us determine to accept every command
Let no man take it
Let no man take it
Let no man take it
Let no man take it

Let no man take your crown
Let no man take your crown
Till at His feet you lay it down
May you be ever faithful found
Let no man take your crown

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 09:16 PM
Put up or shut up, godrulz.

We are sick of your big mouth, and no biblical evidence.

Damian, is that you? Are you and sozo friends?

Rewards are certainly a divisive issue :loser:

This is the first time in 30 years I have heard of believers badmouthing issues about stewardship and rewards.

Hebrews 11:6 God is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

The exact nature of rewards is not given, but the priniciple of reward vs rebuke is found in the Bible.

Is your favorite movie "Grumpy Old Men"?

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 09:19 PM
I don't believe you have actually read anything in this thread, godless.

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 09:20 PM
What a ball of Scripture twisting you have tallied up!

You twist the Word of God until it makes you feel comfortable- I suggest fearing God before you talk next time. Heretic.


I suggest you show more respect to the man of God. Pastor HIll has a good heart and mind. I disagree with some of his views without slandering him. We are all trying to be faithful to the Word as we understand it. Let us encourage and edify if we are seeking God. Save the attacks for those who mock and attack God and His Word.

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 09:25 PM
Heaven is not a place for earthly reflection, because the things of this world have no relevance to those things which are eternal.
Your mind will be free from envy, and so there will be no ability to perceive one thing as having more value than another. This is why the entire bogus idea of rewards that is made up by mainstream Christianity, and not biblical, has damaged the furtherance of the gospel. Both Jesus and Paul, had to confront those who were always motivated by the prospect of rewards, when there is only one reward, which is THE eternal inheritance.


Motive is the key. Rewards can be pursued selfishly, leading to loss of reward. That which is done for Christ and His glory in His power will be commended, not rebuked. Hebrews says that God will remember their labors and the love shown to the saints. Rewards are not inherently wrong.

Must you always put a negative spin on everything and see self-righteousness under every bush, without warrant?

(no rewards, no mental illness, no Christian sin, etc. your views have a grain of truth, but are unbalanced....heresy is half truth, not complete error).

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 09:30 PM
lightinboy... I am going to ask the moderators that you stop spamming this thread, and that your posts be removed.

You are not responding to any posts but are purposely trying to bury the ones that are posted with writings that are not your own.

Start your own thread.

He is giving relevant Scripture about rewards. Perhaps if you found all the passages with rewards/stewardship concepts, you would find a more biblical position than your extreme, reactionary view you now hold. Answer his explicit verses about rewards rather than trying to get the posts erased (we disagree with your I Cor. 3 conclusions, for starters).

Studd is not perfect, but he is not an idiot. He probably did more for the kingdom (missionary) than we are.

godrulz
February 3rd, 2007, 09:32 PM
I don't believe you have actually read anything in this thread, godless.


I read every thread I participate in front to back. I do not read every word in every post (especially when they are long like lightningboy).

God rules.

I used to be godless before Christ delivered and saved me.

Hitler was godless. :mad:

Sozo
February 3rd, 2007, 11:52 PM
Studd is not perfect, but he is not an idiot. He probably did more for the kingdom (missionary) than we are.Studd is a godless, anti-Christ, heretic. Just like you, and just like Finney.

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Studd is a godless, anti-Christ, heretic. Just like you, and just like Finney.


Actually, I know very little about Studd. He was a famous missionary who was used to bring souls into the kingdom. Is he as evil as John Wesley in your mind? Finney also was used by God in great spiritual awakenings. I think you have small man syndrome.

Did Studd deny the essentials of historical, biblical Christianity, or did he just fail to agree with Boy George...er....Bob George...Freudian slip ;) ?

What specifically did Studd teach (have you read all of his writings) that is a denial of Christ?! I am all ears.

http://www.earnestlycontending.com/KT/bios/ctstudd.html

It sounds like his gospel was simple faith in the person and work of Christ.

Just because you do not like one sentence in his quotes does not justify your foolish conclusions.

Are you for real?

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 12:32 AM
Actually, I know very little about Studd. Are you for real?Then why do you judge him?


Are you for real?Between you and me, I'm the only one.

Bob Hill
February 4th, 2007, 12:59 AM
I've forgotten about this thread, but now I'm back.

I believe in a strong emphasis on getting what I believe from the Bible.

Others say they do too. But, all of the different beliefs tell me that some people are very perplexed.

I think one of the greatest problems is the emphasis that many teach on baptism.

It’s also getting to be a majority position in the world of Christianity that health and prosperity teachings are what God wants. They say God wants us healthy & wealthy. Yet, even with all those big churches making it their theology, it doesn’t happen. Why?

Many don’t understand why God doesn’t answer their prayers like He promised He would.

Some are not really sure what they have to do to be saved. And others are not completely sure that you cannot lose your salvation.

Some are puzzled about tongues, the other sign gifts, and prophecy.

Are these gifts for today? If I didn’t see things dispensationally, I would have to believe in those gifts being in order for us today, yet I know you don’t.

Others are concerned about this – will we go through the tribulation or be taken out of here before it begins?

I feel a great burden for many believers who have bad theology. I admire many on this thread who seem to want to know the word of God. But, there is so much confusion about what the Bible really teaches, and I believe it’s because many do not look at God’s word according to the dispensations He shows us in His word.

Gross error is not only being presented in many churches in our land as truth, but truth almost seems to be despised by some churches.

I believe we can know the truth if we study God’s word to see what it really says. That’s why I believe all of these problems I’ve mentioned can be solved when we look at the great distinctions God makes in His Word.

God’s program for us today, in the Dispensation of Grace, is different from all His previous programs and future programs.

We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God inspired Paul to repeat this explanation in Col 1:25-27: [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the Dispensation of the Mystery in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Why? Because it is a mystery – a secret.

Things changed drastically when the dispensation of grace/mystery started.

Here are the big differences in this Dispensation of Grace.
Salvation. We are justified by faith. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The Circumcision Gospel was different from our present Dispensation of Grace.
They were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Security.
We are sealed and secure.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

They have to endure.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone [b][of the eleven apostles] does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Baptism.
We don’t have to be water baptized to be saved.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

They had to be baptized.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The purpose of the mystery.
Is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia - remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.
2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The big difference is life changing and shows us in this dispensation, salvation is all of grace and our belief.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 01:02 AM
Then why do you judge him?

Between you and me, I'm the only one.


What I do know puts the burden of proof on you for rejecting so many godly believers who love the Lord and were used mightily by him. You act like a cult or sect leader in your thinking. Be afraid, be very afraid. You will give an account someday for denying the grace of Christ in some many believer's lives.

Bob Hill
February 4th, 2007, 01:10 AM
I think we should always, first, love God. Then, we should love everyone else. Sometimes that is hard, but God doesn't give us any excuses for not, even, loving our enemies.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 01:18 AM
I think we should always, first, love God. Then, we should love everyone else. Sometimes that is hard, but God doesn't give us any excuses for not, even, loving our enemies.

In Christ,
Bob Hill


Words of wisdom. Love also does not compromise the truth, but it shows discernment (I Cor. 13).

Benjamin
February 4th, 2007, 02:30 AM
I suggest you show more respect to the man of God. Pastor HIll has a good heart and mind. I disagree with some of his views without slandering him. We are all trying to be faithful to the Word as we understand it. Let us encourage and edify if we are seeking God. Save the attacks for those who mock and attack God and His Word.

God suggests that I show immense respect to Him, and rebuke those who twist the Word. You run along and have a fun respecting men and their dangerous hell widening teachings. :)

Benjamin
February 4th, 2007, 02:33 AM
OSAS is the result of a great and sinister confusion which results in damage to the Gospel.

Romans 8:14
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Benjamin
February 4th, 2007, 02:42 AM
Now let me ask....WHO ARE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD LADIES AND GENTLEMAN? (please read Romans 8:14 in the above post) Is it those with empty confession or those who walk in the Spirit? Have you NEVER READ MATTHEW 25? 10 virgins, 5 RAN OUT OF OIL AND DID NOT GET IN. Please recognize they had oil but refused to "continue" in the Gospel (1 Cor 15:1-2) and refused to stay continually "full of the Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18).

Now I ask very demandingly, WHAT IS INERRANT? The Word of God or the teaching of OSAS?...because they absolutely cannot both be. (I recommend siding with the inerrant Word which will judge all- even Ehrman and every other critic).

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 05:02 AM
God suggests that I show immense respect to Him, and rebuke those who twist the Word. You run along and have a fun respecting men and their dangerous hell widening teachings. :)

I disagree with his Mid-Acts dispensationalism, but this is hardly a spiritually fatal heresy. Pastor Hill is a man of God who affirms the same essentials of the faith that you and I do. OSAS is not a salvific issue generally. I agree that it is unbiblical and is only problematic if we give unbelievers false assurance that the Spirit and Word do not. For those who believe and continue to trust and love Jesus, it is not an issue unless used as a license for sin. For the most part, it is an academic discussion that may or may not have practical ramifications.

Until you can find fault with his Christology or soteriology, you are being a presumptious young punk...zeal without wisdom or knowledge.

Benjamin
February 4th, 2007, 06:27 AM
I disagree with his Mid-Acts dispensationalism, but this is hardly a spiritually fatal heresy. Pastor Hill is a man of God who affirms the same essentials of the faith that you and I do. OSAS is not a salvific issue generally. I agree that it is unbiblical and is only problematic if we give unbelievers false assurance that the Spirit and Word do not. For those who believe and continue to trust and love Jesus, it is not an issue unless used as a license for sin. For the most part, it is an academic discussion that may or may not have practical ramifications.

Until you can find fault with his Christology or soteriology, you are being a presumptious young punk...zeal without wisdom or knowledge.

Anytime you want to come street preaching with me- just let me know.

"The righteous are as bold as a lion". Take care. :)

Meanwhile I will continue to rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering- because I love God's Word.

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 08:13 AM
I've forgotten about this thread, but now I'm back.

I believe in a strong emphasis on getting what I believe from the Bible.

Others say they do too. But, all of the different beliefs tell me that some people are very perplexed.

I think one of the greatest problems is the emphasis that many teach on baptism.

It’s also getting to be a majority position in the world of Christianity that health and prosperity teachings are what God wants. They say God wants us healthy & wealthy. Yet, even with all those big churches making it their theology, it doesn’t happen. Why?

Many don’t understand why God doesn’t answer their prayers like He promised He would.

Some are not really sure what they have to do to be saved. And others are not completely sure that you cannot lose your salvation.

Some are puzzled about tongues, the other sign gifts, and prophecy.

Are these gifts for today? If I didn’t see things dispensationally, I would have to believe in those gifts being in order for us today, yet I know you don’t.

Others are concerned about this – will we go through the tribulation or be taken out of here before it begins?

I feel a great burden for many believers who have bad theology. I admire many on this thread who seem to want to know the word of God. But, there is so much confusion about what the Bible really teaches, and I believe it’s because many do not look at God’s word according to the dispensations He shows us in His word.

Gross error is not only being presented in many churches in our land as truth, but truth almost seems to be despised by some churches.

I believe we can know the truth if we study God’s word to see what it really says. That’s why I believe all of these problems I’ve mentioned can be solved when we look at the great distinctions God makes in His Word.

God’s program for us today, in the Dispensation of Grace, is different from all His previous programs and future programs.

We see how unique God’s program for us is when we read about Paul’s commission in Eph 3:1-9: “For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gracious gift of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the untraceable riches of Christ, 9 and make all see what is the dispensation (oikonomia) of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.”

God inspired Paul to repeat this explanation in Col 1:25-27: [The church]of which I became a minister according to the dispensation of God which was given to me for you, to fulfill [to complete, make full, fill] the word of God, 26 the mystery which has been hidden from the ages and from the generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. 27 To whom God willed to make known what are the glorious riches of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ among you, the hope of glory.

This means that prophecies made before Paul was saved, from Genesis to Acts nine, have nothing to do with this dispensation. Why? Because this dispensation is called the Dispensation of the Mystery in Eph 3:8,9 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the dispensation of the mystery, which has been hidden from the ages in God who created all things through Jesus Christ.

Rom 16:25,26 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret in age times 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.

It also means that nothing was known about the church which is the body of Christ before it was revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Why? Because it is a mystery – a secret.

Things changed drastically when the dispensation of grace/mystery started.

Here are the big differences in this Dispensation of Grace.
Salvation. We are justified by faith. Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

The Circumcision Gospel was different from our present Dispensation of Grace.
They were justified by faith plus works.
Jam 2:11,12,14,20,21,24,25 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Security.
We are sealed and secure.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise.
Eph 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption.

They have to endure.
Mat 24:9-14 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
John 15:1-12 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone [b][of the eleven apostles] does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Baptism.
We don’t have to be water baptized to be saved.
Acts 16:30,31 And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
1 Co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

They had to be baptized.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
1 Pe 3:19-21 [Christ] went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us – baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The purpose of the mystery.
Is love.
1 Ti 1:3-5 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia - remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. 5 Now the purpose of the commandment charge is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith.
2 Ti 1:12-14 I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep my deposit until that Day. 13 Hold fast the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me, in faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.14 Keep that good thing which was committed to you the good deposit, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The big difference is life changing and shows us in this dispensation, salvation is all of grace and our belief.

In Christ,
Bob Hill

Good information, Bob, but what does this have to do with this thread? :idunno:

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 08:24 AM
Anytime you want to come street preaching with me- just let me know.

"The righteous are as bold as a lion". Take care. :)

Meanwhile I will continue to rebuke and exhort with all longsuffering- because I love God's Word.


Boldness should not be crass, but tempered with wisdom and love.

Nothing wrong with taking the gospel to the streets. We are to 'go', not expect them to come to our churches.

You, Bob, and myself all love God's Word. Our rebuke should be based on proper interpretation of His Word, not just on our opinions of it that may or may not be correct.

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 08:25 AM
Good information, Bob, but what does this have to do with this thread? :idunno:


Mid-Acts support?

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 08:26 AM
So turn on the light and reveal all the glory
I am not afraid
To bare all my weakness knowing in meekness
I have a kingdom to gain

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 08:28 AM
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 08:32 AM
We should not throw out the old hymns just for modern ditties/choruses.

We should also recognize that some hymns have questional lyrics from a biblical point of view.

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 08:51 AM
I have been, I am being, and I shall be saved.
I have been saved from the penalty of sin. That Scripture calls salvation (Acts 16:31). It also calls that justification (Rom 3:24). But, in addition to what has happened to me, I am being saved every day from the power of sin (Heb 7:25). That the Scripture calls sanctification. Because of God’s faithfulness, I shall yet be saved one day from the presence of sin altogether. That the Scripture calls glorification. All three of those are called "salvation" in the Word of God.
We accept one as Savior who also is Lord and having received Him as Savior we will find out more and more of His Lordship. If we are slow about it, He will take us to the woodshed. For, He promises us that every son that He receives, He chastises.
Disqualified from what? From the incorruptible, imperishable crown! My position of service with Jesus Christ in the life to come! I am becoming today as a child of God what I will be in the life to come. I can be a prince or a boot black depending on what I do with what I have. God leaves that up to me. Choose your position. Today is a day of becoming. Then is a day of being what I have become. I am training today to reign tomorrow. This is training time for reigning time.
In 1 Cor 4:2, Paul tells us that "it is required in stewards that one be found faithful." What is a steward? A steward is a manager of somebody else’s property or equipment. When I came into the family of God, God gave me a sovereign deposit and said, in effect, "Now take it and trade with it. Use it. Show me what kind of commitment you have got. If you do nothing with it you will get nothing." That’s the gist of 1 Cor 3:12-15.
It is significant to note that both the unregenerate and the regenerate will be judged by their works. The unregenerate will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment and the result of that judgment will be degrees of eternal punishment in hell. The regenerate will be judged by their works at the Judgment Seat of Christ and the result of that judgment will either be reward or the lack of it.
I can never be judged for my sins because my sins have been paid for.
How are you doing? Are you progressing? Will you have ten cities, five cities, or no cities? Will the stewardship that God has put into your hands be taken away from you and given to someone else who knows how to use it? Are you using God’s resources to your own interest? A steward is not an owner; a steward is a manager. A steward is a trustee, and it is required of stewards that they be faithful to the intent of the owner if they are going to be well thought of by that owner.
God tells the one person, "You faithless, wicked servant! I will take away from you what you have. Why didn’t you at least lend it out for interest? Why did you go and hide it in the ground?" What is God talking about? He is not talking about justification, He is talking about our present use of what He has entrusted to us, and our consequent position and privilege of service to His glory in His reign. Where I go is dependent on who I know. What I do when I get there is totally dependent on what I do now with what He gave me from the time I received that life from Him. That’s the motivating factor. Don’t compromise the Gospel of Grace by trying to add to it in order to motivate people on to maturity. The true motivation is glorification and what I shall do in the life to come.
"Bikini Believers at the Bema." And I submit to you that in light of 1 Cor 3:12-15 there are going to be, I’m afraid, many.
I run into some people who say, "Well, I don’t believe you ought to work for reward, I believe you ought to work for the Lord." I want to submit something to you. It’s impossible for you to work for the Lord without working for reward because the delight of the heart of Jesus Christ is going to be able to give out all the rewards that He can possibly fairly give out. But He won’t do it unjustly (Rev 22:12). He won’t do it unrighteously, and the person who is not willing to pick up his or her cross, so to speak, as a disciple, who is not willing to suffer for Christ, shall not reign.
I don’t feel like I want to hold back. I want to give it my all. I don’t need to live a long time. What I do need to do is live qualitatively because a short life of that kind on earth will have a long effect through all eternity. A weight of glory, a kind of manifestation where I shall reflect the glory of Jesus Christ forever and ever.

kmoney
February 4th, 2007, 09:14 AM
Those whose deeds are done apart from Christ are dead works, and will be judged as such.
Do you include Christians in this also?

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 10:52 AM
Do you include Christians in this also?

A "dead work" is trying to do something, to get something, that you already have.

Believers have been given everything in Christ.

When Christians try to gain something from God by what they do, those are dead works.

All works by unbelievers are dead works, because they are already condemned. All their deeds are as filthy rags.

The only works that have any importance in the life of a Christian are those things that God is doing in us, and through us. For the most part, you will probably be unaware of them. That is why we walk by faith.

"...for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."

kmoney... Did you understand the text in those two chapters?


Let's ignore the rest of what is being said in this thread, and keep up the dialogue. I think you will find this to be eye-opening and life changing.

Jerry Shugart
February 4th, 2007, 12:30 PM
Sozo,

Earlier I said:

I just cannot understand how anyone cannot see that the following verses are speaking of rewards which Christians will receive:

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

To which you replied:

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation. They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith; not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.
I believe that the rewards that are spoken of here are rewards that will be revealed later:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire".

"...for the day shall declare it".

The Greek word translated "shall declare" is in the "future" tense. If the rewards are being given now for a Christian's "laying the foundation (Jesus)" then the tense would not be "future".

I believe that the words "the day" refers to the "day of Christ",when believers will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.At that time Christians will appear before the "Bema Seat" of Christ:

"For we must all appear before the judgment (bema) seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad" (2Cor.5:10).

A "Bema Seat" was the seat in the ancient Olympics that a judge would sit on,and he determined which position the runners came in and then to present the rewards accordingly.

As 2Cor.5:10 says,at this Bema Seat the Christian will "receive the things done in His body".

What do you think that this is referring to if not "rewards"?

In His grace,--Jerry

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 12:48 PM
The Greek word translated "shall declare" is in the "future" tense. If the rewards are being given now for a Christian's "laying the foundation (Jesus)" then the tense would not be "future".

Are you for real?

Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it, because your preaching will not have been in vain.

If you preach to them another gospel, that is not built upon THE foundation, then it will be worthless, and your efforts will have been in vain.

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it."

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ

The "reward" to those who build upon the foundation with the truth, is that they have souls that are saved. If he is saved, but does not build on the foundation with the truth, then all his work is in vain, but he shall remain, and there is no reward of those whom he led astray.


I have already dealt with 2 Corinthians 5:10 in it's entirety, just a few posts back. Paul continues to discuss the same issue as he does in 1st Corinthians from the view of suffering in our bodies.

Jerry Shugart
February 4th, 2007, 01:36 PM
Are you for real?

Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it, because your preaching will not have been in vain.
Sozo,

Are you for real?

Previously you spoke as if Paul had already received his reward:

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward for laying the foundation (Jesus).
You said that "they are his reward",i.e."present tense".

But now you reverse yourself and say that Paul's reward remains in the future.

And then you ask me if I am for real!

It is you who is not being realistic when it comes to interpretating the Scriptures.

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Sozo,

Are you for real?

Previously you spoke as if Paul had already received his reward:

You said that "they are his reward",i.e."present tense".

But now you reverse yourself and say that Paul's reward remains in the future.

And then you ask me if I am for real!

It is you who is not being realistic when it comes to interpretating the Scriptures.

Jerry...

When does Paul lay and build upon the foundation?

When are people saved?

Paul speaks of the reward as being those who are receiving the gospel now, and the proof of it is realized in the day of the Lord.

You are just being your usual obstinate jerk-off self, looking to trip people up, with no interest in the truth, whatsoever.

You and godless make a perfect couple.

Try paying attention. You are notorious for being an idiot.

Jerry Shugart
February 4th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Jerry...

When does Paul lay and build upon the foundation?

When are people saved?
Sozo,

Of course you remain floating around in unreality,not being able to distinguish between the "present" tense and the "future" tense.

And when everyone can see that you have no resonable answer you fall back on your old tactics.When you cannot answer the message you attack the messenger.

Why don't you just admit that you are confused?

There is no harm in admitting that you made a mistake.

But I forgot,aren't you the one who says that you never sin?

You never sin and you never make a mistake.

You are a legend in your own mind!

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 05:52 PM
Jerry... You are a pompus jackass.

Here is my first post to you...


All who come to Christ, receive THE reward (present & future tense), which is His life, and in His life we receive all that God has prepared for us (present & future tense).

The crown(s) that believers receive are life, righteousness, and glory through faith in Jesus Christ. All those who are in Christ receive them (present & future tense).

In this life, Paul referred to those whom he has preached the gospel to, and nurtured in the faith, are his crown. They are also his reward (present & future tense) for laying the foundation (Jesus). And others are rewarded as they build on that foundation (present & future tense). They are rewarded in the fact that they see the fruit of their labor, in those who have grown in the faith (present tense); not that they get something extra in the age(s) to come.

Preaching a gospel of works, is building on the foundation with wood, hay, and straw, and the reward will be burned up (future tense). His efforts will produce nothing of value in the hearts of those whom he has shared (present & future tense).

Jerry, we presently recieve the reward of Christ's life, and will in the future see the redemption of our bodies, which is the fullness of the reward realized.

Here is my follow up post...


Of course it is in the future. If you share the gospel with someone that is built on Christ, and not on works, then the "day" (of the Lord) will show it (future tense), because your preaching will not have been in vain (present tense).

If you preach to them another gospel, that is not built upon THE foundation, then it will be worthless, and your efforts will have been in vain (present & future tense).

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it."

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ

The "reward" to those who build upon the foundation with the truth, is that they have souls that are saved (present & future tense). If he (the one who presents the gospel) is saved (present tense), but does not build on the foundation with the truth (present tense), then all his work is in vain (present & future tense), but he shall remain, and there is no reward of those whom he led astray (future tense).

There is no contradiction, Jerry.

You are confused.

btw... attacking the messenger was a common practice by Jesus, Paul, Stephen, Peter, and other men who had to put up with ungodly heretics like you and godrulz.

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Come and join the reapers
All the kingdom seekers
Laying down your life to find it in the end
Come and share the harvest
Help to light the darkness
For the Lord is calling faithful men

Jerry Shugart
February 4th, 2007, 07:21 PM
Jerry... You are a pompus jackass.

Jerry, we presently recieve the reward of Christ's life, and will in the future see the redemption of our bodies, which is the fullness of the reward realized.
With statements like that no wonder no one takes you seriously,Sozo.

We must abandon our common sense and delude our minds if we to believe that the "rewards" spoken in the following verses are in regard to the "redemption of our bodies":

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).

Some Christians will receive a reward or rewards in the future and some will not.

But you say that the reward is the redemtion of our bodies.Are we supposed to believe that some Christians will receive new,glorified bodies as their reward and others will not?
You really need to think these things through before you say such ridiculous things,Sozo.

When Paul preached to the Jews he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts17:2).

In order to believe the things which you say we must throw our reason to the wind.

You fit what Paul said about the unbelieving Jews when he said that "they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge" (Ro.10:2).

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 07:54 PM
After doing a word study on NT uses of 'rewards', I am satisfied that Jerry is on the right track. He is also not a godless heretic just because he agrees with myself and the majority of Christians and scholars on this subject.

Diagnosis: Sozo tends to have a preconceived idea and has a filter when he interprets passages. He takes one use of a word, while ignoring other legitimate uses of the word in different contexts (a simple language tool or lexicon, which he probably has, would undermine his arguments).

e.g. as Knight points out, his narrow view of 'sin' leads to exegetical problems (Christians cannot sin).

His narrow definition of 'mental illness' (see his thread with that title) leaves him contrary to common usage and common sense on the subject (no such thing as mental illness...he should ride along on my ambulance the last week during the full moon...at least in my city, there are many crazy nuts out there).

His one sided view of sanctification (basically justification) negates an equally valid complementary view forcing him to wrongly call the ongoing work of the Spirit as self-righteousness.

His concept of the gospel as life makes him reject someone as demon possessed if they also talk about it as a reconciled love relationship.

Limited time offer: I am offering free copies of the book "Dealing with people you can't stand" by Dr. Brinkman/Kirschner...how to stand up to abusive, abrupt people, coping with creeps, difficult people, jerks, hostile-aggressives.

Be prepared for the wrath of Khan... :noid: :angel:

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 08:06 PM
That's all the lumber--that's all the lumber
that's all the lumber you sent
Looks like the builder--man he's got your number
That's all the lumber you sent

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 10:07 PM
What are the wood, hay, and stubble in 1 Cor. 3:12-15?

They could be earthly pursuits like collecting baseball cards and restoring antiques.

They could be "living the good life" in a secular manner.

They could be legitimate ministerial activities done for glorification of self rather than of God.

God wants works done out of love for Him.

But that doesn't mean you can't deposit into your heavenly bank account.

lightninboy
February 4th, 2007, 10:09 PM
Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

John 5:41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

1 Corinthians 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1 Corinthians 7:21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men [NKJV: do not become slaves of men].

1 Corinthians 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
30 And they that weep, as though they wept not; and they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not; and they that buy, as though they possessed not;
31 And they that use this world, as not abusing it: for the fashion of this world passeth away.
32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:
33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
35 And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction.

Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade [New Scofield: seek the favor of] men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ [NKJV: would not be a servant of Christ].

Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Colossians 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

1 Thessalonians 2:3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

godrulz
February 4th, 2007, 10:13 PM
What are the wood, hay, and stubble in 1 Cor. 3:12-15?

They could be earthly pursuits like collecting baseball cards and restoring antiques.

They could be "living the good life" in a secular manner.

They could be legitimate ministerial activities done for glorification of self rather than of God.

God wants works done out of love for Him.

But that doesn't mean you can't deposit into your heavenly bank account.

Rewards can relate to responsibilities, for example. Some are saved by the skin of their teeth and snatched from the fire. Others have been faithful stewards. All believers have Jesus and heaven, the ultimate reward. A faithful servant of God in this life may have a measure of reward or responsibility. The principles of stewardship parables suggest this.

Sozo
February 4th, 2007, 11:42 PM
We must abandon our common sense and delude our minds if we to believe that the "rewards" spoken in the following verses are in regard to the "redemption of our bodies":

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" (1Cor.3:12-15).



The passage you quoted is dealing with the reward of the soul that received the truth of the gospel built UPON THE FOUNDATION!!!

You are as dense, and foolish as they come.

This letter to the Corinthians is written to a group of people who are steeped in philosophy and worldly wisdom. When the gospel is being presented to them (the foundation), many are building on THE foundation with wisdom that is not from God. A wisdom that will not remain.

(Are you paying attention? Seriously, I doubt it. But, frankly, you have never show an interest in hearing anything but your own false gospel, so I am saying this for the benefit of perhaps the one person out there who is not so filled with self-righteousness that they actually might have ears to hear.)

What Paul is saying is very, very, simple.

1. Paul says that Jesus is the only foundation.

2. Others are building on the foundation.

3. Some are building on the foundation with the truth.

4. Some are building on the foundation with lies.

5. The ones who build on the foundation with the truth will be rewarded.

6. The ones who build on the foundation with lies will receive no reward. BECAUSE, JERRY, IT WILL NOT BEAR FRUIT IN THOSE WHO HEAR IT!!!

The reward is both present tense and future tense. Do you know why, Jerry? Because if the reward is true, then whatever was being built upon the foundation remains. That means that it was already there, Jerry. That is PRESENT TENSE. Get it?

It was just as much there then, as it is when it REMAINS, after being revealed by fire.

The redemption of the body, is also a reward for those who have received Christ. Are you saying that it is not? I just mentioned it, in an attempt to prove a point about rewards, not to tell you that it applies to those verses. I'm trying to get you to think, for once. It makes no sense to discuss a topic, without bringing into light the entirety of the message of Christ. I cannot sit here and quote the entire bible to you to prove every single point. I have to think that there might be some chance that you actually have some familiarity with the bible, but I see now that is probably just a wrong assumption on my part.


The one who builds upon the foundation with dead works (worldly wisdom, righteousness through the law, etc) will suffer loss, because those works are worthless to those who heard it.

In fact, what YOU and all these other morons who teach some kind of reward (other than Christ) are doing is building on the foundation with wood, hay, and stubble. You are giving people a false worldly idea that if they do enough works they will be more blessed than those who walk by faith in Christ and His work in them. Your false gospel will no suffer loss in those who hear it. If you are saved (which I seriously doubt), then you will be saved, but all your false teaching will be burned up, and you will suffer loss in the lives of those who led astray.

In fact, Jerry (and godless), much of what you do is destructive to the body of Christ, and God says that those who bring destruction to the body, will be destroyed by God.

Your false gospel, is a destructive force.

Tell me, Jerry, what "reward(s)", do you think you are going to get, and what qualifies you for those "rewards?

lightninboy
February 5th, 2007, 11:41 AM
If I was a sinner, I'd tell you what I would do
I'd quit my sinning and I'd work on the building too


I'm workin' on a building, I'm workin' on a building
I'm workin' on a building, For my Lord, For my Lord
It's a holy ghost building, It's a holy ghost building
It's a holy ghost building, For my Lord, For my Lord

Jerry Shugart
February 5th, 2007, 12:36 PM
Sozo,

Earlier I pointed out that the "rewards" spoken of at 1 Cor.3:12-15 were rewards that would not be revealed in the future:

The Greek word translated "shall declare" is in the "future" tense. If the rewards are being given now for a Christian's "laying the foundation (Jesus)" then the tense would not be "future".

And you agreed with that. Then you said:

Jerry, we presently recieve the reward of Christ's life, and will in the future see the redemption of our bodies, which is the fullness of the reward realized.
I then pointed out that you answer is nonsense. If we are to believe your idea about future rewards then we must believe that only some Christians will receive new,glorified bodies!

Nothing could be more foolish. But instead of facing up to the truth that you made a mstake you deny that you answer was not in regard to the future rewards spoken of at 1 Cor.3:12-15 at all:

The redemption of the body, is also a reward for those who have received Christ. Are you saying that it is not? I just mentioned it, in an attempt to prove a point about rewards, not to tell you that it applies to those verses.
What a joke!!

Do you really believe that anyone will believe that?

You say that your words about future rewards were not in response to the very point which I was making about those verses. Again,we can see why no one takes you seriously on this forum.

I say that the Christian will receive rewards in the future for the work which they do in regard to building upon the foundation which is Jesus Christ.

But you deny it. But so far you have not been able to provide an answer as to what Paul is referring to at 1 Cor.3:12-15 when he speaks of rewards that will be revealed in the future.

What are they?

lightninboy
February 5th, 2007, 12:40 PM
1 COR 3:11-15
ETERNAL SECURITY & ETERNAL REWARDS

THE WORKS OF CHURCH BUILDERS-LEADERS ARE IN VIEW BUT THIS IS APPLIED TO ANY AND ALL BELIEVERS
The first ten verses of this chapter have the works of church leaders in view and these will be judged as to its value at the Judgment Seat of Christ.
Erwin W. Lutzer, "Your Eternal Reward,Triumph and Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ", Moody Press, Chicago, 1998.
Perhaps the most vivid picture of the judgment seat of Christ is Paul's metaphor given to the church at Corinth.
Their carnality revealed itself in the immaturity of putting their favorite man on a pedestal; some followed one leader, others another.
Paul's point is that some leaders are trying to build the church with poor materials; they gather a congregation quickly, but there is nothing transforming about their ministry. They might work hard, but because their energy is misdirected, they will have nothing that lasts in glory.
Others are trying to build with precious stones; they have a ministry based on the Word of God, prayer and the Spirit.
The person who is 'saved so as by fire' is indeed a Christian, but his leadership has been flawed. He has relied too heavily upon himself, his techniques, and his training. He did not approach the work with a spirit of dependence and faith; he did not do the work with Spirit-directed faithfulness.
Though Paul's point is intended for the leaders of the church, it can be applied to all of us. We are all building our lives, day by day; each of us will be tested, and each life will reveal a mixture of precious stones and stubble.
The more carnality and selfishness, the more 'wood, hay, straw' and the less 'gold, silver, precious stones.'
JESUS CHRIST IS THE SOLE FOUNDATION OF ONES ETERNAL LIFE WHICH IS BUILT BY GOD ALONE AT THE MOMENT OF FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE
ONCE ONE IS SAVED, THEN A BELIEVER CAN BUILD UPON THE FOUNDATION OF HIS SALVATION WITH PRECIOUS OR WORTHLESS MATERIALS
Now once one is saved one then begins to build upon this foundation. One may build with eternally valuable gold, silver and precious stones, i.e., divine good works; or with valueless and destructible wood, hay and straw, i.e., human centered works, (or perhaps no works at all - just a sinful lifestyle). The building that a believer's lifestyle is forming upon the foundation of salvation in Christ is representative of the reward that a believer receives when he gets to heaven.
'THE DAY' IS A TERM WHICH SIGNIFIES THE DAY OF THE LORD BEGINNING WITH OUR LORD'S PREPARATIONS TO RETURN IN JUDGMENT OF THE WORLD INCLUDING THE JUDGMENT OF THE WORKS OF BELIEVERS
"the Day" = a technical term which signifies the day when our Lord will begin preparations to and then return in judgment and rule the earth from Jerusalem, (ref. Isaiah - details of the "Day" described throughout the entire book. 2 Thes 2:1-2 and I Thes 4:13-18 point to the rapture which is the beginning of the "Day" of the Lord when He brings believers dead and alive up to him in heaven in preparation to return to the earth for His millennial rule.
'FIRE WILL TEST THE QUALITY OF EACH MAN'S WORK' =REFERS TO JUDGMENT NOT ETERNAL DAMNATION
'ANY MAN'S WORK' = REFERS TO THE WORK OF THOSE WHO HAVE BUILT ON THE FOUNDATION OF CHRIST, I.E., ANY BELIEVER'S WORK
'IT' = REFERS TO THE FOUNDATION OF ETERNAL LIFE - JESUS CHRIST AND HIM ALONE
REWARDS ARE IN VIEW FOR DOING WORKS WHICH SURVIVE THE TEST, I.E., FAITHFUL ONES
If any man's work is burned up, [wood, hay, straw] he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved [unto eternal life], yet so as [one who barely escapes with his life] through fire [saving nothing of his belongings except himself - he goes to heaven the poorest of paupers for the rest of eternity.
If a believer does not abide in Christ, producing works which are not divine good, they will be consumed in the fire, suffering the loss of eternal rewards.
Notice that if the believer's works were burned up - i.e., if the works did not survive the test of fire, then that believer will actually suffer loss - suffer in heaven for the loss of what he could have received but did not because he wasted his time on earth. But that believer, the Scripture says, will still remain saved unto eternal life, barely entering onto heaven's shores as one escaping to safety from a burning house - without bringing anything out of the burning house but himself.
Thus the representation of the fruitless believer's life relative to the quality of his life in heaven is burned up, leaving nothing of value for him with which to receive rewards and build his life in eternity in heaven. His life in heaven will be limited for all eternity!
CORROBORATING PASSAGES ON REWARDS AND THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST
2 Cor 5:8-10
The primary responsibility of the Christian is to work as unto the Lord which is toward his inheritance in heaven.
Col 3:23-25
Rev 22:12