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CRASH
November 15th, 2005, 09:47 PM
Is it a sin (http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm)to send you children to Public School?

Christians should pull thier kids out! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42704) Now!

The idea is to promote a new religion, (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/indoctri.htm) which is really an old religion...

Government schools tell your Christian children that this (http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/nextgeneration.asp) is Okay!~
Real Christians say (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38322)...Escape before they destroy your family!

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 09:50 PM
:think: So, all the people that disagree are not "Real Christians?"

CRASH
November 15th, 2005, 10:18 PM
:think: So, all the people that disagree are not "Real Christians?"

Some who disagree are not Christians and some are, but all who send thier children away to be raised by the government schools are sinning.

kmoney
November 15th, 2005, 10:20 PM
Some who disagree are not Christians and some are, but all who send thier children away to be raised by the government schools are sinning.
:think: It is? I'm not seeing it.

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Some who disagree are not Christians and some are, but all who send thier children away to be raised by the government schools are sinning.I don't know about that. I didn't thoroughly read all the links, but I've corresponded with Tracy of Jesus-Is-Lord.com before (the 3rd link on the opening post), and she believes if you pick up a NIV that you're sinning. This seems a little legalistic, don't you think?

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:28 PM
I didn't read the links.
I went to public school.

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:29 PM
I didn't read the links.
I went to public school.Ok. Um...yeah...ok.

kmoney
November 15th, 2005, 10:31 PM
There is a typo in the one article.
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm

The passage is Luke 17:1-2, NOT Luke 17:12

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:31 PM
Ok. Um...yeah...ok.
What did the links say?

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:32 PM
What did the links say?A lot. They're clickable, ya know? :D

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:33 PM
There is a typo in the one article.
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm

The passage is Luke 17:1-2, NOT Luke 17:12
Good job kmoney:thumb:

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:34 PM
A lot. They're clickable, ya know? :D
Your gonna make me read them aren't ya?

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:34 PM
Your gonna make me read them aren't ya?Yep. :D

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:42 PM
The first one says that it's bad cause they don't teach Calvinism.

kmoney
November 15th, 2005, 10:44 PM
The first one says that it's bad cause they don't teach Calvinism.
Well they were predestined to not teach Calvinism so who should they really blame?? :think:

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:51 PM
:chuckle:
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.Darn it. Hopefully I already good repped you then.

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:53 PM
:shocked:
The second one says;
"our children are being forcibly indoctrinated to believe that homosexual behavior is acceptable."

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:54 PM
:shocked:
The second one says;
"our children are being forcibly indoctrinated to believe that homosexual behavior is acceptable."I can agree with that quote.

fool
November 15th, 2005, 10:56 PM
I can agree with that quote.
The "forcibly" part?

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 10:58 PM
The "forcibly" part?Depends upon the age level, but yes.

kmoney
November 15th, 2005, 11:00 PM
Depends upon the age level, but yes.
How can you force any belief on someone?
I guess if you're talking about young children than you could tell them just about anything and they'll believe it so in that sense you are forcing it on them.

fool
November 15th, 2005, 11:00 PM
Depends upon the age level, but yes.
Has someone "forcibly indoctrinated" you?

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 11:00 PM
How can you force any belief on someone?
I guess if you're talking about young children than you could tell them just about anything and they'll believe it so in that sense you are forcing it on them.That is what I am talking about.

ebenz47037
November 15th, 2005, 11:11 PM
Is it a sin (http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm)to send you children to Public School?

Christians should pull thier kids out! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42704) Now!

The idea is to promote a new religion, (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/indoctri.htm) which is really an old religion...

Government schools tell your Christian children that this (http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/nextgeneration.asp) is Okay!~
Real Christians say (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38322)...Escape before they destroy your family!

As a homeschooling mom, I have to say that I support homeschooling one hundred percent. But, as a mom in general, I have to say that I support the rights of the parents to choose how to educate their children more than I do homeschooling.

I know that public schools are, in general, cesspools. Personally, since my daughter reached school age, I've never encountered one "good" public school. But, some Christian parents say that they have found "good" public schools.

Needless to say, I have a real problem with anybody telling non-homeschooling Christians that they're "not truly Christians" or that they're "sinning if they send their kids to public school." Some people haven't experience the problems I've seen in a lot of public (and private) schools in their own public schools. As a rule, smaller towns' schools will have less problems than big cities' schools.

I've convinced people that they should homeschool. I've helped people start homeschooling. I've written curriculum for new homeschoolers. But, it has to be the choice of the parents.

Mr. 5020
November 15th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Has someone "forcibly indoctrinated" you?Well, I went to a private school. And now I'm 22, so I don't think I fall into the age group that I had in mind.

keypurr
November 15th, 2005, 11:16 PM
Is it a sin (http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm)to send you children to Public School?

Christians should pull thier kids out! (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42704) Now!

The idea is to promote a new religion, (http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/indoctri.htm) which is really an old religion...

Government schools tell your Christian children that this (http://www.chick.com/bc/2002/nextgeneration.asp) is Okay!~
Real Christians say (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38322)...Escape before they destroy your family!
They should also pull them out of religious school. Most are not teaching truth.
I think your barking up the wrong tree. People want someone else to teach their kids about God because they have failed. So they blame everyone but themselves.

ebenz47037
November 15th, 2005, 11:19 PM
They should also pull them out of religious school. Most are not teaching truth.
I think your barking up the wrong tree. People want someone else to teach their kids about God because they have failed. So they blame everyone but themselves.

I have to agree with keypurr on this one. Although I've done my best to raise my daughter as a Christian, she now, at fifteen years old, says, "I don't know if I believe in God or not." I don't know how I could have done better to convince her, although I am trying to show her through scripture and my own example.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 08:13 AM
There is a typo in the one article.
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/CRTPublicEd.htm

The passage is Luke 17:1-2, NOT Luke 17:12

The author probably went to public school :)

Good call.

erinmarie
November 16th, 2005, 08:20 AM
The author probably went to public school :)

Good call.

OK OK! I've had enough of this comment. I went to public school and I'm not an idiot! I'm sick of it being implied that I am.

I absolutely plan on homeschooling my children, am growing in the ways of The Lord, and I think I'm pretty darn smart. Just because my parents made a mistake doesn't mean that everyone on this board that believes in homeschooling can call people who went to public school stupid.

Jukia
November 16th, 2005, 08:41 AM
Some who disagree are not Christians and some are, but all who send thier children away to be raised by the government schools are sinning.

My 4 kids went to public school but my wife and I raised them.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:15 AM
I don't know about that. I didn't thoroughly read all the links, but I've corresponded with Tracy of Jesus-Is-Lord.com before (the 3rd link on the opening post), and she believes if you pick up a NIV that you're sinning. This seems a little legalistic, don't you think?

I don't think reading the NIV is sin.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:18 AM
Has someone "forcibly indoctrinated" you?

Usually, it is not forced but between the teachers and the other trolls in the school many kids from Christian families are led away into evil.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:26 AM
As a homeschooling mom, I have to say that I support homeschooling one hundred percent. But, as a mom in general, I have to say that I support the rights of the parents to choose how to educate their children more than I do homeschooling.

I know that public schools are, in general, cesspools. Personally, since my daughter reached school age, I've never encountered one "good" public school. But, some Christian parents say that they have found "good" public schools.

Needless to say, I have a real problem with anybody telling non-homeschooling Christians that they're "not truly Christians" or that they're "sinning if they send their kids to public school." Some people haven't experience the problems I've seen in a lot of public (and private) schools in their own public schools. As a rule, smaller towns' schools will have less problems than big cities' schools.

I've convinced people that they should homeschool. I've helped people start homeschooling. I've written curriculum for new homeschoolers. But, it has to be the choice of the parents.

Of course parents should have the right to make choices about thier children. However, it is always wrong for the gooberment to steal money from people to indoctrinate the youth of the nation with anti Christian values. I don't have a choice! They have gun to my head to steal the money!

I never said they are not Christians. I said they are sinning. It is a sin to send your children to the heathan every day to be raised. Sure a few people get out of the schools without being totally destroyed morally but that is rare. I went to a small town school and we had as much drugs and sex as any big city school. Don't be decieved.

If parents were not having so much money stolen from them by the gooberment, they would have plenty of money to start private schools, send thier kids to private schools and homescool. Many parents have no choice now because so many Christians have bought into the evil notion of governement schools. Choice!?!?!? Sad, but many don't have the choice to escape!

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:28 AM
They should also pull them out of religious school. Most are not teaching truth.
I think your barking up the wrong tree. People want someone else to teach their kids about God because they have failed. So they blame everyone but themselves.

I agree. Except that public schools are still evil and if you are a Christian your child will likely turn from the faith if you send them off to be raised by the heathans.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM
OK OK! I've had enough of this comment. I went to public school and I'm not an idiot! I'm sick of it being implied that I am.

I absolutely plan on homeschooling my children, am growing in the ways of The Lord, and I think I'm pretty darn smart. Just because my parents made a mistake doesn't mean that everyone on this board that believes in homeschooling can call people who went to public school stupid.

I never said you were an idiot. But many are and the system deserves to be mocked for the destructive system that it is.

What are you talking about anyway? I went to public school also, and watched the destruction of lives and peoples character that surrounded me everywhere for 16 years. If you are so smart and growing in the ways of the Lord you would join me in warning people about the government schools. At my business we have a heck of a time finding people with a grasp of the most basic math and gramatical skills.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:38 AM
My 4 kids went to public school but my wife and I raised them.

Sure, they spend at least 8 hours a day with other people for at least 12 years and you raised them. Only an American who went to public school could believe that!

Granite
November 16th, 2005, 10:40 AM
I agree. Except that public schools are still evil and if you are a Christian your child will likely turn from the faith if you send them off to be raised by the heathans.

Is a Christian's faith that weak that exposure to a public school will destroy it?

Doesn't say much about your Holy Ghost or a Christian's skills as a parent.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Is a Christian's faith that weak that exposure to a public school will destroy it? Doesn't say much about your Holy Ghost or a Christian's skills as a parent.

For the majority of Christians - yes!
Don't balme it on God, it is human weakness that is to blame.

ebenz47037
November 16th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Of course parents should have the right to make choices about thier children. However, it is always wrong for the gooberment to steal money from people to indoctrinate the youth of the nation with anti Christian values. I don't have a choice! They have gun to my head to steal the money!

If parents were not having so much money stolen from them by the gooberment, they would have plenty of money to start private schools, send thier kids to private schools and homescool. Many parents have no choice now because so many Christians have bought into the evil notion of governement schools.

I agree with you about the money part. I homeschool my daughter. Yet, I still have to pay taxes to send my neighbors' kids to public school. From the time she started school until now (middle of her 10th grade year), my daughter has attended public school for less than one entire school year. She was in private school for kindergarten and first grade, and then again for one semester in sixth grade. She went to public school for one month in second grade (I started homeschooling then at the suggestion of her teacher.) and then again for about four months in the fourth grade (My husband had just passed away and we moved from CA to IN. And, we were really getting on each others' nerves.). Other than that, she's been homeschooled all the way through school.


I never said they are not Christians. I said they are sinning. It is a sin to send your children to the heathan every day to be raised. Sure a few people get out of the schools get out without being totally destroyed morally but that is rare. I went to a small town school and we had as much drugs and sex as any big city school. Don't be decieved.

I'm not deceived. I went to public school myself. Only difference is between your experience in public school and mine is that I went to both rural and urban schools (I was a navy brat who went to more than fifteen schools from grades k thru 12). In my experience, the urban schools had more drugs and sex, by a long shot. I'm guessing that you're a lot younger than I am if the rural schools were that bad for you.

What I am trying to say is that some parents believe that they have found good schools to enrol their children in. I don't have to agree with them. It's their decision. They are doing the best they think they can do.

Lately, I've been talking to a couple of families who have their kids in public school. They can't afford private school and don't think they're qualified to homeschool. They've bought into the NEA claptrap that parents aren't qualified to teach their own children. I've been working slowly with these families, pointing out that the public schools didn't teach their children to walk or talk or use the toilet. Little by little, they're beginning to understand that the NEA has an agenda.

I don't believe that sending your kids to public school is necessarily a sin. I think that the Christian parents who do so are trying to educate their children in the best way they know how. It may take something drastic, like when the public school here told me that parental involvement in school meant that I was supposed to make my daughter do the work and teach her to never try to go ahead of the other students, to get them to completely leave the system. Some of them may need more of a slap to get them to see what's going on.

But, you will never convince Christian parents not to send their children to public schools if you get snotty and confrontational about it. I'm not talking about being weak in expressing your ideas. I talk to parents all the time about homeschooling. And, I don't play the PC "I don't want to hurt your feelings" card either. I tell them what I see is wrong with public schools and tell them why I think that homeschooling is the best course of action as far as my child's education goes. I don't tell people that they're sinning if they send their children to public school. I don't think they are.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 03:26 PM
I agree with you about the money part. I homeschool my daughter. Yet, I still have to pay taxes to send my neighbors' kids to public school. From the time she started school until now (middle of her 10th grade year), my daughter has attended public school for less than one entire school year. She was in private school for kindergarten and first grade, and then again for one semester in sixth grade. She went to public school for one month in second grade (I started homeschooling then at the suggestion of her teacher.) and then again for about four months in the fourth grade (My husband had just passed away and we moved from CA to IN. And, we were really getting on each others' nerves.). Other than that, she's been homeschooled all the way through school.

I'm not deceived. I went to public school myself. Only difference is between your experience in public school and mine is that I went to both rural and urban schools (I was a navy brat who went to more than fifteen schools from grades k thru 12). In my experience, the urban schools had more drugs and sex, by a long shot. I'm guessing that you're a lot younger than I am if the rural schools were that bad for you.

What I am trying to say is that some parents believe that they have found good schools to enrol their children in. I don't have to agree with them. It's their decision. They are doing the best they think they can do.

Lately, I've been talking to a couple of families who have their kids in public school. They can't afford private school and don't think they're qualified to homeschool. They've bought into the NEA claptrap that parents aren't qualified to teach their own children. I've been working slowly with these families, pointing out that the public schools didn't teach their children to walk or talk or use the toilet. Little by little, they're beginning to understand that the NEA has an agenda.

I don't believe that sending your kids to public school is necessarily a sin. I think that the Christian parents who do so are trying to educate their children in the best way they know how. It may take something drastic, like when the public school here told me that parental involvement in school meant that I was supposed to make my daughter do the work and teach her to never try to go ahead of the other students, to get them to completely leave the system. Some of them may need more of a slap to get them to see what's going on.

But, you will never convince Christian parents not to send their children to public schools if you get snotty and confrontational about it. I'm not talking about being weak in expressing your ideas. I talk to parents all the time about homeschooling. And, I don't play the PC "I don't want to hurt your feelings" card either. I tell them what I see is wrong with public schools and tell them why I think that homeschooling is the best course of action as far as my child's education goes. I don't tell people that they're sinning if they send their children to public school. I don't think they are.

I am not trying to be snotty, I pretty much agree with you about everything and I am sorry to hear about your husband. That must have been very difficult.



I don't think I am as young as you might think - I am 42. Drugs were readily available from numerous sources in the 70's in our town of about 10,000. Some kids were having sex in Jr. high after we went through "sex education." and smoking pot in 6th grade. Sin was rampant there and from what I could tell living in cities for the past 25 years it is getting worse in both places. I saw speed for the first time in the 5th grade when a kid brought it to school.



The only main thing we disagree on is whether it is a sin. Try to answer these questions from God's perspective.



1. As a Christian parent, is it sinful to let people who hate God teach things to your children day after day, week after week and year after year and will that effect their thinking toward God?



2. Is it sinful to send your children into a place where the "education" is expressly God-less?



3. What would God have done to Mary and Joseph if they had sent little Jesus over to the Philistines to be "educated" 5 days a week for 12 years?



4. If you know the government school is destroying the vast majority of people who pass through it and you did nothing to warn them, would that be a sin?



5. As a Christian parent, in general, what will your relationship be like with your children when they are 16 - Homeschooled vs. Public School?



6. Are you fulfilling your role as a Christian parent when you abdicate your authority to a false religion promoting, pro-abortion, pro-child sex, pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-rabid environmentalist, anti-Christian, anti child discipline, government school?



7. If not, would you be sinning?



Thanks

ebenz47037
November 16th, 2005, 03:57 PM
I am not trying to be snotty, I pretty much agree with you about everything and I am sorry to hear about your husband. That must have been very difficult.



I don't think I am as young as you might think - I am 42. Drugs were readily available from numerous sources in the 70's in our town of about 10,000. Some kids were having sex in Jr. high after we went through "sex education." and smoking pot in 6th grade. Sin was rampant there and from what I could tell living in cities for the past 25 years it is getting worse in both places. I saw speed for the first time in the 5th grade when a kid brought it to school.



I don't know why. But, I thought you were in your twenties. :chuckle: It could be considered a compliment in someways and not in others. :chuckle: I'm 36 (37 in about three weeks).

The urban junior high and high schools I attended (3,000 and more students) tended to have rampant drug use and sex. That leaves out the violence that occured on a daily basis. While the rural schools I attended (under 3,000 students) did have their problems, the drug use and sex was nowhere near as common as in the cities. In fact, the rural high school I graduated from (We had a senior class of 52 students) had almost no drug use. I don't really know about the sex there because the kids didn't do anything in the hallways or under the bleachers. I think that it depends on how the majority of kids are raised and whether the adults in the school are Christians, themselves.


The only main thing we disagree on is whether it is a sin. Try to answer these questions from God's perspective.



1. As a Christian parent, is it sinful to let people who hate God teach things to your children day after day, week after week and year after year and will that effect their thinking toward God?



2. Is it sinful to send your children into a place where the "education" is expressly God-less?



The answer to both these questions is the same. No, it isn't sinful. Foolish, yes. People are allowed to make mistakes. God knows, I've made my share of them. And, I know that in order to grow, people (whether Christian or not) need to be allowed to make those mistakes and move on from there.


3. What would God have done to Mary and Joseph if they had sent little Jesus over to the Philistines to be "educated" 5 days a week for 12 years?

Well, you have to look at how children were raised back then, too. Public schools are fairly new to humanity. Back then, the mother would take care of the children until they were eight to ten years old. Then, the boys would go work with the father or be apprenticed out to other men, helping to contribute to the family, and the girls would work with the mother.

To be honest, I don't know what God would do to Mary and Joseph if they lived today and sent Jesus to public school, though.




4. If you know the government school is destroying the vast majority of people who pass through it and you did nothing to warn them, would that be a sin?

This is something that I am "iffy" on. I think it is unwise not to warn people. I think it is wrong not to warn people. But, do I think it is a sin? I honestly cannot say yes or no to that one.




5. As a Christian parent, in general, what will your relationship be like with your children when they are 16 - Homeschooled vs. Public School?

:chuckle: I already know this one. I am witnessing first-hand what it is like right now. My daughter will be 16 in January.

I know that I have, what I consider, typical teen problems with her. But, based on what I did as a teenager and what I've heard from parents who decide to send their children to public school, I know that my problems aren't even close to what they would be if I chose to put her in public school. And, I've said so many times.




6. Are you fulfilling your role as a Christian parent when you abdicate your authority to a false religion promoting, pro-abortion, pro-child sex, pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-rabid environmentalist, anti-Christian, anti child discipline, government school?

Now, you know what I'd say to this. I believe that homeschooling is the best way to educate our children. But, not all parents believe the same thing because they've bought into the NEA claptrap.




7. If not, would you be sinning?

Read my response to question #4. That explains my position on this.


Thanks

You're quite welcome!

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Thanks for your answers.

I think we are very safe to assume that God would have struck Mary and Joseph down with a bolt of lightning or opened up the earth and sucked them down to hell if they had sent him to a pagan government school.





Didn't God put the responsibility to raise the children with families and specifically fathers?



According to God, Goverment was never authorized to "educate" or raise children. If we violate God's biblical mandate, is it not sin?



If you are a Christian and you teach your child a false religion, pro-abortion, pro-child sex, pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-rabid environmentalist, anti-Christian, anti child discipline values would that be a sin?

kmoney
November 16th, 2005, 04:28 PM
I agree. Except that public schools are still evil and if you are a Christian your child will likely turn from the faith if you send them off to be raised by the heathans.
Do you have any stats to post about that? Because I've actually never seen any stats that say how many kids "lose their religion" by going to public school, or even college. Right now it seems like it's an conclusion based on a couple personal experiences and the assumption that children are too easily swayed.

ebenz47037
November 16th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Thanks for your answers.

I think we are very safe to assume that God would have struck Mary and Joseph down with a bolt of lightning or opened up the earth and sucked them down to hell if they had sent him to a pagan government school.

I see why you would say that. But, if it was the law that they send their children to public school (which a lot of people believe today), I don't know what God would do if Mary and Joseph followed the law.






Didn't God put the responsibility to raise the children with families and specifically fathers?

Yes.




According to God, Goverment was never authorized to "educate" or raise children. If we violate God's biblical mandate, is it not sin?

I'll have to get back to you on this. I don't think that it's a sin to put your children in public school. And, that's because, until my daughter was in the second grade, I thought it was against the law to not put them in public or private school. I had never heard of homeschooling until then. So, was I sinning when I put my daughter into public school for one month in the second grade? How about when I put her in for a semester right after my husband passed away?




If you are a Christian and you teach your child a false religion, pro-abortion, pro-child sex, pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-rabid environmentalist, anti-Christian, anti child discipline values would that be a sin?

Personally, I think it is a sin to do so; especially when you're doing so actively. But, most Christians who send their kids to public school don't see what they're doing as a sin. In fact, a lot of Christians who send their kids to public school think that it's against the law to not send their kids to either public school or private school.

kmoney
November 16th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Thanks for your answers.

I think we are very safe to assume that God would have struck Mary and Joseph down with a bolt of lightning or opened up the earth and sucked them down to hell if they had sent him to a pagan government school.
What are you using to back that assumption up?


Didn't God put the responsibility to raise the children with families and specifically fathers?
Verse? or verses? The one off the top of my head is Ephesians:
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

But do you take that as all of education?


According to God, Goverment was never authorized to "educate" or raise children. If we violate God's biblical mandate, is it not sin?
Who educates them? I assume you would say parents so, see the question I asked above....


If you are a Christian and you teach your child a false religion, pro-abortion, pro-child sex, pro-homosexual, pro-socialist, pro-rabid environmentalist, anti-Christian, anti child discipline values would that be a sin?
Do you honestly equate parents teaching it directly to kids with parents sending their kids to public school?

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 09:40 PM
Do you have any stats to post about that? Because I've actually never seen any stats that say how many kids "lose their religion" by going to public school, or even college. Right now it seems like it's an conclusion based on a couple personal experiences and the assumption that children are too easily swayed.

Stats? How would you track the stats? Come on, just look around you. I've met a bunch of people who have rejected God after time in school.

kmoney
November 16th, 2005, 09:43 PM
Stats? How would you track the stats? Come on, just look around you. I've met a bunch of people who have rejected God after time in school.
I realize something like that would be hard to accurately keep track of. I just didn't know if there were any polls or something that someone had done.

and like I said before, the conclusion you're making is based off of "a bunch" of personal experiences so I don't know how valid a conclusion it is.

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 09:54 PM
Personally, I think it is a sin to do so; especially when you're doing so actively.

Personal views aside, it would most certainly be a sin to teach your children these evil things!
False religion,
Pro-abortion,
Pro-child sex,
Pro-homosexual,
Pro-socialist,
Pro-rabid environmentalist,
Pro-evolution,
Anti-Christian,
Anti-child discipline

Therefore it would follow that if you delegate your responsibility and authority to someone else to teach these same evil things that would also be a sin! And that is exactly what is going on across America in every public school.

The only question left is: Are these parents really ignorant and is ignorance an excuse for this particular sin?"

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 09:58 PM
I realize something like that would be hard to accurately keep track of. I just didn't know if there were any polls or something that someone had done.
and like I said before, the conclusion you're making is based off of "a bunch" of personal experiences so I don't know how valid a conclusion it is.

It is valid. I hope you never have to learn from personal experience and have your future 15 year old "Christian" daughter come home and tell you she has decided she is lesbian or that she is an evolutionist or that you never heard about the abortion she had at 14.

kmoney
November 16th, 2005, 10:00 PM
It is valid. I hope you never have to learn from personal experience and have your future 15 year old "Christian" daughter come home and tell you she has decided she is lesbian or that she is an evolutionist or that you never heard about the abortion she had at 14.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it might not be as prevalent as you think it is and someone's personal experiences generally aren't the valid basis for making such a generalization.

and to answer your questions I'm 22 and I go to a public college. What do you think of that? I already know Clete thinks my parents are horrible for it. :rolleyes:

CRASH
November 16th, 2005, 10:02 PM
What are you using to back that assumption up?


Verse? or verses? The one off the top of my head is Ephesians:
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

But do you take that as all of education?


Who educates them? I assume you would say parents so, see the question I asked above....


Do you honestly equate parents teaching it directly to kids with parents sending their kids to public school?

God's nature in the old test.
A verse that I think is in Joshua.
yes, a parent or someone they have delegated to - which should be someone righteous and safe.
Yes of course. I make that point well above.

keypurr
November 16th, 2005, 10:21 PM
I agree. Except that public schools are still evil and if you are a Christian your child will likely turn from the faith if you send them off to be raised by the heathans.
Your sick.
both my daughters went to public schools. In New England we got the best educators. I can say that because both my daughters are teachers. One of them has been teaching in public schools for 25 years. she has many past students who call her just to keep in touch.
I can understand your dissatisfaction with some of the things they must teach, but if your children are well taught at home as to what is truth, what are you concerned with? Most religious schools teach their lies and traditions how will kids educated ther get a fair assement of truth? Most home schoolers are not qualified to teach. It is one thing to know and quite another to teach. Evil is not just in public schools, start with the churches.

Brother Vinny
November 16th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Your sick.
both my daughters went to public schools. In New England we got the best educators. I can say that because both my daughters are teachers.

Did either of them teach you not to use a possessive pronoun where a contraction is warranted? :devil:

beefalobilly
November 16th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Stats? How would you track the stats? Come on, just look around you. I've met a bunch of people who have rejected God after time in school.

That's all fine and dandy that you know a lot of people who have gone through public schools, but I know a lot who have also, and never gave up their faith. All my cousins have gone to public schools, except one homeschooled. We're all still in the faith, except four, who were never raised to be christians in the first place, and of those four, one is showing serious interest in christ, and the other is already completely immersed in the faith. Tell me how the public schools have ruined our faith?

And if you want to play your little "i have personal experience" game then I have personal experience that shows 66% of homeschoolers lose their faith, since I know three people personally who have been homeschooled, and two of them got their girlfriends pregnant and have left the church. So from my point of view, public schools have added one (possibly two) to the fold, and homeschools have subtracted two. :think:

Now, I say all this, not because I think public schools are superior (because I don't believe that, home schooling is probably superior in many ways), but just to show that because you have personal experience with something doesn't mean anything at all, and I personally don't feel that public schools are the den of the devil like you think they are. You may have seen heroin or whatever it was when you were in 5th grade, but I didn't even see a drug until I was a senior in high school. And I live in california (the den of iniquity).

ebenz47037
November 16th, 2005, 10:57 PM
Personal views aside, it would most certainly be a sin to teach your children these evil things!
False religion,
Pro-abortion,
Pro-child sex,
Pro-homosexual,
Pro-socialist,
Pro-rabid environmentalist,
Pro-evolution,
Anti-Christian,
Anti-child discipline

Therefore it would follow that if you delegate your responsibility and authority to someone else to teach these same evil things that would also be a sin! And that is exactly what is going on across America in every public school.

It doesn't go in in every public school across America. :nono: My local public school (which I removed my daughter from after one semester for making her slow down on learning so her classmates wouldn't get jealous) doesn't teach any of that stuff. And, I know other Christian parents across America who say that their local public schools don't teach any of it.


The only question left is: Are these parents really ignorant and is ignorance an excuse for this particular sin?"

If they're ignorant, I am. I've sat in on different classes where you would expect to hear them teach about these things. And, they don't teach it here. They might in Cincinatti or Indianapolis. But, they don't in the small towns around me.

SOTK
November 16th, 2005, 11:05 PM
That's all fine and dandy that you know a lot of people who have gone through public schools, but I know a lot who have also, and never gave up their faith. All my cousins have gone to public schools, except one homeschooled. We're all still in the faith, except four, who were never raised to be christians in the first place, and of those four, one is showing serious interest in christ, and the other is already completely immersed in the faith. Tell me how the public schools have ruined our faith?

And if you want to play your little "i have personal experience" game then I have personal experience that shows 66% of homeschoolers lose their faith, since I know three people personally who have been homeschooled, and two of them got their girlfriends pregnant and have left the church. So from my point of view, public schools have added one (possibly two) to the fold, and homeschools have subtracted two. :think:

Now, I say all this, not because I think public schools are superior (because I don't believe that, home schooling is probably superior in many ways), but just to show that because you have personal experience with something doesn't mean anything at all, and I personally don't feel that public schools are the den of the devil like you think they are. You may have seen heroin or whatever it was when you were in 5th grade, but I didn't even see a drug until I was a senior in high school. And I live in california (the den of iniquity).


:thumb:

keypurr
November 16th, 2005, 11:10 PM
Did either of them teach you not to use a possessive pronoun where a contraction is warranted? :devil:
Will it save me???????

Zimfan
November 17th, 2005, 12:15 AM
I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it might not be as prevalent as you think it is and someone's personal experiences generally aren't the valid basis for making such a generalization.

and to answer your questions I'm 22 and I go to a public college. What do you think of that? I already know Clete thinks my parents are horrible for it. :rolleyes:

:shocked: A public college?!? Say it ain't so, kmoney!

P.S. I go to one, too.

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 12:19 AM
:shocked: A public college?!? Say it ain't so, kmoney!

P.S. I go to one, too.
I know I know, It's true though.

:chuckle:

Zimfan
November 17th, 2005, 12:22 AM
Next you'll be telling me you went to a public high school. :nono:

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 12:29 AM
Next you'll be telling me you went to a public high school. :nono:
:chuckle:

actually I didn't. I went to a private school. When I reached highschool my parents gave me the choice to go to a public school, but I just stayed. There was no point to leaving; I had been there several years already, so why leave?

Zimfan
November 17th, 2005, 12:31 AM
:chuckle: Well, that kinda ruins the joke.
Public Middle School?

Delmar
November 17th, 2005, 06:16 AM
... But, it has to be the choice of the parents.
I don't think that Crash would dispute that sin is a choice!

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 07:13 AM
For the majority of Christians - yes!
Don't balme it on God, it is human weakness that is to blame.

So the majority of Christians have weak and flimsy faith.

If that's true, why should anyone listen to you guys?

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 07:15 AM
I may have missed something, but does Crash have any children and if so where do they go to school?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 07:46 AM
Your sick.
both my daughters went to public schools. In New England we got the best educators. I can say that because both my daughters are teachers. One of them has been teaching in public schools for 25 years. she has many past students who call her just to keep in touch.
I can understand your dissatisfaction with some of the things they must teach, but if your children are well taught at home as to what is truth, what are you concerned with? Most religious schools teach their lies and traditions how will kids educated ther get a fair assement of truth? Most home schoolers are not qualified to teach. It is one thing to know and quite another to teach. Evil is not just in public schools, start with the churches.


Gee, I didn't know I was sick. Are you sure it not you with the problem?
Are you a Christian?
Are your children?
You are fighting a straw man.

Turbo
November 17th, 2005, 07:50 AM
I may have missed something, but does Crash have any childrenYes.


and if so where do they go to school?That shouldn't be hard for you to figure out on your own.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:05 AM
So the majority of Christians have weak and flimsy faith.
If that's true, why should anyone listen to you guys?

Yes.
You should be careful of Christians. Jesus warned people about his followers and when you see most any televangalist it becomes quite clear why he did that.

You should investigate the claims of Christians and the Bible because you want to know the truth. The truth will help you to live right and not destroy yourself. Your response to the truth determans your enternal state. Jesus made the highest truth claim of any man ever. He didn't say he was taught the truth and he didn't say he was a teacher of the truth. Jesus said He is the Truth. So it is worth the investigation. If the claims of the Bible don't hold up and the Christians can't solve the problems you a have found with the Bible and we are really wrong, then we are fools. If the answers to life are in the Bible and you reject it, then you have done so at the cost of your eternal damnation.

Did you reject God when you went to public school?

erinmarie
November 17th, 2005, 08:08 AM
I may have missed something, but does Crash have any children and if so where do they go to school?

:rotfl: Why would you EVER think that Crash sends his kids to school. The thread's name is "Public Schools Are Sin!"

I guess you could think he sends them to a private school? :think:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:11 AM
I may have missed something, but does Crash have any children and if so where do they go to school?

I have 5 awesome children between the ages of 4 and 14. They have all been homeschooled. They love God and they are a joy to be with. They are also advanced in thier scholastics and have excellent social skills and manners! :D

How many do you have and where do they go to school?

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 08:15 AM
I have 5 awesome children between the ages of 4 and 14. They have all been homeschooled. They love God and they are a joy to be with. They are also advanced in thier scholastics and have excellent social skills and manners! :D

How many do you have and where do they go to school?
4 kids, 30, 28, 25, 24. 2 girls then 2 boys. Public school then yuppie colleges and grad school. An MD, a PhD, and 2 in (horrors) law school. You would no doubt think it very unfortunate that they all tend to be left wing environmentalists but they make me happy, still get along with each other, still make me laugh and have never been arrested.

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 08:16 AM
Yes.
You should be careful of Christians. Jesus warned people about his followers and when you see most any televangalist it becomes quite clear why he did that.

You should investigate the claims of Christians and the Bible because you want to know the truth. The truth will help you to live right and not destroy yourself. Your response to the truth determans your enternal state. Jesus made the highest truth claim of any man ever. He didn't say he was taught the truth and he didn't say he was a teacher of the truth. Jesus said He is the Truth. So it is worth the investigation. If the claims of the Bible don't hold up and the Christians can't solve the problems you a have found with the Bible and we are really wrong, then we are fools. If the answers to life are in the Bible and you reject it, then you have done so at the cost of your eternal damnation.

Did you reject God when you went to public school?

I went to a parochial school, genius.:rolleyes:

erinmarie
November 17th, 2005, 08:17 AM
4 kids, 30, 28, 25, 24. 2 girls then 2 boys. Public school then yuppie colleges and grad school. An MD, a PhD, and 2 in (horrors) law school. You would no doubt think it very unfortunate that they all tend to be left wing environmentalists but they make me happy, still get along with each other, still make me laugh and have never been arrested.

But, are they going to heaven?

erinmarie
November 17th, 2005, 08:20 AM
I went to a parochial school, genius.:rolleyes:

*In Granite's whiny snotty voice* "I went to a parochial school, genius."

And look where it got you! Thirty-something, disillusioned, paranoid....
Maybe your parents should have homeschooled. :think:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:23 AM
4 kids, 30, 28, 25, 24. 2 girls then 2 boys. Public school then yuppie colleges and grad school. An MD, a PhD, and 2 in (horrors) law school. You would no doubt think it very unfortunate that they all tend to be left wing environmentalists but they make me happy, still get along with each other, still make me laugh and have never been arrested.

Unfortunate, is an understatement - I would consider myself a complete and utter failure if my kids were all left winger environmentalist who hate God like your kids do. Furthermore, I would dis-own any kid of mine who became a liar, I mean a lawyer. Err....same thing.

Public schools accomplished just what they were designed to do with your clan.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:24 AM
I went to a parochial school, genius.:rolleyes:

Parochial school. Thats Catholic right?

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Parochial school. Thats Catholic right?

Not as I understand the word; "parochial" always meant "religious" to me. In any event it was the school associated with and run by my church at the time, which was of the non-denominational Protestant variety. One way or another you guessed wrong. Try-try again.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:26 AM
I went to a parochial school, genius.

So you reject Christ and the Bible because of what you saw and were tauaght there or because you made an in depth inquiry into the claims of the Bible?

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 08:27 AM
*In Granite's whiny snotty voice* "I went to a parochial school, genius."

And look where it got you! Thirty-something, disillusioned, paranoid....
Maybe your parents should have homeschooled. :think:

I was homeschooled until the ninth grade.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:27 AM
Not as I understand the word; "parochial" always meant "religious" to me. In any event it was the school associated with and run by my church at the time, which was of the non-denominational Protestant variety. One way or another you guessed wrong. Try-try again.

Thanks, for continually pointing out how wrong I am.
If you don't tell me I have to guess, Larry.

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 08:28 AM
So you reject Christ and the Bible because of what you saw and were tauaght there or because you made an in depth inquiry into the claims of the Bible?

If you want to start another thread or look up my "No Longer a Christian" thread, please do so, or PM me; I really don't want to hijack this one. Given your two choices "indepth inquiry" is closest to my experience, but again, this isn't the thread for that discussion.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:30 AM
If you want to start another thread or look up my "No Longer a Christian" thread, please do so, or PM me; I really don't want to hijack this one. Given your two choices "indepth inquiry" is closest to my experience, but again, this isn't the thread for that discussion.

Great. I'll check it out.:bang:

erinmarie
November 17th, 2005, 08:31 AM
I was homeschooled until the ninth grade.

That's what you SAY.

:D

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:40 AM
*In Granite's whiny snotty voice* "I went to a parochial school, genius."

And look where it got you! Thirty-something, disillusioned, paranoid....
Maybe your parents should have homeschooled. :think:

Maybe Granite's parents should have continued to homeschool and made sure they taught thier son that the claims of Christ have merit, that the Bible is God's revealed Word to mankind and then taught him how to defend that position in the public square, by taking him into the public square and defending it with him!


WARNING: ALL CHRISTAIN PARENTS OR PARENTS TO BE - READ THIS (http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=63&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=213&tx_ttnews[backPid]=37&cHash=3ae1d4508f)3 PART ARTICLE NOW!

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 08:44 AM
Maybe Granite's parents should have continued to homeschool and made sure they taught thier son that the claims of Christ have merit, that the Bible is God's revealed Word to mankind and then taught him how to defend that position in the public square, by taking him into the public square and defending it with him!


WARNING: ALL CHRISTAIN PARENTS OR PARENTS TO BE - READ THIS (http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/index.php?id=63&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=213&tx_ttnews[backPid]=37&cHash=3ae1d4508f)3 PART ARTICLE NOW!

Listen to me for a second.

You don't know my parents so would you please do me a favor and not suggest what they should have or should not have done. Do not act as though you can drop hints in front of me about what my folks did right or wrong. I find this offensive in the extreme.

As a favor, do not do this again.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Listen to me for a second.
You don't know my parents so would you please do me a favor and not suggest what they should have or should not have done. Do not act as though you can drop hints in front of me about what my folks did right or wrong. I find this offensive in the extreme.
As a favor, do not do this again.

Granite, I think you are being a little over-sensitive here. I did not personally attack your parents, I was attempting to instruct others based on the information you gave. After all, you came from a Christian family and have rejected Christ which is the subtopic of this thread. Because you asked nicely and you still honor your parents I will honor your request to the best of my ability.:thumb:

Where is the thread you refered me to about why you rejected Christianity?

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 09:02 AM
Granite, I think you are being a little over-sensitive here. I did not personally attack your parents, I was attempting to instruct others based on the information you gave. After all, you came from a Christian family and have rejected Christ which is the subtopic of this thread. Because you asked nicely and you still honor your parents I will honor your request to the best of my ability.:thumb:

Where is the thread you refered me to about why you rejected Christianity?

It's my blood. I will be as sensitive as I please.

I have no idea what became of the "No Longer A Christian" thread; it's entirely possible the mods decided to get rid of it, I don't know if they purge older threads or not.

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 09:03 AM
who hate God like your kids do. .

This statement is a bit presumptuous on your part. But then most of your posts seem to be presumptuous.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 09:05 AM
Maybe My parents should have started and continued to homeschool and made sure they taught me that the claims of Christ have merit, that the Bible is God's revealed Word to mankind and then taught me how to defend that position in the public square, by taking me into the public square and defending it with me!

My heart yearns for the lost years, pain and destruction that could have been avoided had my parents not just said they were Christian but instead sought the God of the Bible and lived according to his ways!

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 09:07 AM
This statement is a bit presumptuous on your part. But then most of your posts seem to be presumptuous.

I just figure if I am wrong you will let me know. I don't think I am wrong, but there is a small chance I could be.

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 09:14 AM
I just figure if I am wrong you will let me know. I don't think I am wrong, but there is a small chance I could be.
Sorry, Crash, I think there is a large chance you are wrong about a great many things. Go home school your kids, good luck, raise them up to drink the right wing fundamentalist Republican kool-aid, to believe the earth was created in 6 days about 6000 years ago, that our human actions don't affect the environment, listen to and believe Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, etc. But God forbid just don't ask them to use the brains He gave them. I hope they turn out to be decent caring human beings.
I'm outta here.

fool
November 17th, 2005, 10:00 AM
I've met a bunch of people who have rejected God after time in school.
Seems like that would indicate that education and religion aren't compatible.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Sorry, Crash, I think there is a large chance you are wrong about a great many things. Go home school your kids, good luck, raise them up to drink the right wing fundamentalist Republican kool-aid, to believe the earth was created in 6 days about 6000 years ago, that our human actions don't affect the environment, listen to and believe Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, etc. But God forbid just don't ask them to use the brains He gave them. I hope they turn out to be decent caring human beings.
I'm outta here.

Ahhh.... so I was right Mr. Lawyer man.


listen to and believe Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter,

Why would I listen to these rabid liberals?


I'm outta here.

Run when you're wrong. Thats just like a God hating, liberal.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Seems like that would indicate that education and religion aren't compatible.

Thats almost funny.

keypurr
November 17th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Gee, I didn't know I was sick. Are you sure it not you with the problem?
Are you a Christian?
Are your children?
You are fighting a straw man.
Dear Mr Crash, I knew the Lord 25 years before you were born. You seem to have some bad experiences in life and you strike out at the goverment for not doing things the way YOU think they should be done. No, the schools are not perpect, but neither are the churches which you want to delegate authority to teach your children. Give them a strong faith at home and they will face the world with the Lord in their heart. If your children are not ready to live in this world, then you my friend have failed them. By the way, I'm seventy years old so I've been there.

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Run when you're wrong. Thats just like a God hating, liberal.

Just can't seem to stay away. Since you do not know me your comments are at best foolish and at worst hateful. But then again hateful seems to be a function of most fundamentalists, be they Christian, Islamist, etc.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:09 AM
Dear Mr Crash, I knew the Lord 25 years before you were born. You seem to have some bad experiences in life and you strike out at the goverment for not doing things the way YOU think they should be done. No, the schools are not perpect, but neither are the churches which you want to delegate authority to teach your children. Give them a strong faith at home and they will face the world with the Lord in their heart. If your children are not ready to live in this world, then you my friend have failed them. By the way, I'm seventy years old so I've been there.

Mr. Crash? My friends call me CRASH. No need for the Mr.:noid: Didn't realize I was speaking to an elder.

I never said the churches are perfect. Read my posts. I think the churches are mostly a disaster. Parents are responsible for raising their children not the government and not churches.

Are you children saved?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Just can't seem to stay away. Since you do not know me your comments are at best foolish and at worst hateful. But then again hateful seems to be a function of most fundamentalists, be they Christian, Islamist, etc.

Liberals have way more in common with the Islamic terrorists than do right wing fundamentalist Christians. It is good to hate evil. You should try it lawyer man.

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 10:22 AM
Liberals have way more in common with the Islamic terrorists than do right wing fundamentalist Christians. It is good to hate evil. You should try it lawyer man.

I'd say the religious nuts are the ones with something in common. Both think God's on their side and will do nothing to stop their goal of ruling the world.

fool
November 17th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Personal views aside, it would most certainly be a sin to teach your children these evil things!
False religion,

You mean like Christianity?


Pro-abortion,

Why are they handing out condoms if they want people to have abortions?


Pro-child sex,

Teachers, guidence councilers, fellow students, janitors, crossing gaurds, are frequently the people that first see the evidence of rape, incest, molestation and report it.


Pro-homosexual,

When I went to sex ed in high school they were very blunt about the fact that anal sex is an extremely bad idea.


Pro-socialist,

80% of the graduates from my high school went on to some form of higher education.
I believe it was partly due to the fact that money was portrayed as the ultimate goal.
I'm not saying that was a good thing, money don't make ya happy, but it was definitly not socialist.


Pro-rabid environmentalist,

There's a shot for that.


Pro-evolution,

Would it be OK if they taught OEC?
Or is that not fundy enough?


Anti-Christian,

They shouldn't be anti-any religion.


Anti-child discipline

I got disciplined alot.

fool
November 17th, 2005, 10:35 AM
. I think the churches are mostly a disaster.

On this we agree :thumb:

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Why would I listen to these rabid liberals?

You think they are liberal? (hannity, coulter, limbaugh)

Turbo
November 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM
I have no idea what became of the "No Longer A Christian" thread...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16480

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 11:52 AM
You think they are liberal? (hannity, coulter, limbaugh)

I suspect there was some sarcasm in there.

Or unintentional hilarity. :devil:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 01:21 PM
I'd say the religious nuts are the ones with something in common. Both think God's on their side and will do nothing to stop their goal of ruling the world.

Do you have evidence that I would stop at nothing to rule the world?

Last time I checked the liberals were running the world.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 01:24 PM
You think they are liberal? (hannity, coulter, limbaugh)

Hanity will support a pro-abort for president
Coulter is a lawyer
Limbaugh is a republican hack in oxycotin
These are what we call liberals

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Do you have evidence that I would stop at nothing to rule the world?

Last time I checked the liberals were running the world.

Thank you, Crash. That sounds very paranoid. :kookoo:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 01:32 PM
On this we agree :thumb:

That doesn't get you off the hook that all atheists are a disaster.:thumb:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Thank you, Crash. That sounds very paranoid. :kookoo:
Paranoid would not describe me. When you look at the Character of big business, our government, the govermnments of Europe and China, the UN what you see is Liberalism, not right wing Christianity. Besides I destroyed your argument - you don't have any evidence do you?

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Paranoid would not describe me. When you look at the Character of big business, our government, the govermnments of Europe and China, the UN what you see is Liberalism, not right wing Christianity. Besides I destroyed your argument - you don't have any evidence do you?
China---that great bastion of liberalism!
Evidence? Your "beliefs" do not equal evidence.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:08 PM
China---that great bastion of liberalism!
Evidence? Your "beliefs" do not equal evidence.

Commies are liberals.
They don't believe in absolute right and wrong - just like lawyers.

You might try to read the dialogue prior to posting so that your comments make sense to the readers.

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:11 PM
Commies are liberals.
They don't believe in absolute right and wrong - just like lawyers.

You might try to read the dialogue prior to posting so that your comments make sense to the readers.

Uh Huh, exactly which dialogue would that be now?

And by your definition, Nazis were liberals as well, right?

Zimfan
November 17th, 2005, 03:13 PM
:think: I'm curious as to what CRASH's definition of liberal is. Then it might be easier to understand why he thinks that certain people generally thought of as conservative are liberals.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:16 PM
Uh Huh, exactly which dialogue would that be now?

And by your definition, Nazis were liberals as well, right?

Dialogue is the conversation I was having with Granite.

Nazi's are Liberals that's why they have the word socialist in thier name.

Zimfan
November 17th, 2005, 03:17 PM
"David Schoenbaum argued in his book Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939 that Nazism contained certain revolutionary and socialist aspects (although more in rhetoric than in reality), and it was no coincidence that the Nazis often found themselves in a struggle with the Communists for the same constituency. The DAP, which later became the Nazi Party, was formed in response and in opposition to a brief Communist revolt in Bavaria. While the Nazis opposed individualism and laissez faire capitalism, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing#Fascism_and_right-wing_politics) vigorous opposition to Communism and Social democracy was a founding and continuing tenet of National Socialism."

This would seem to me to put the Nazis pretty far from the right, although I'm not sure that it would be enough to make them liberals.

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 03:19 PM
Paranoid would not describe me. When you look at the Character of big business, our government, the govermnments of Europe and China, the UN what you see is Liberalism, not right wing Christianity. Besides I destroyed your argument - you don't have any evidence do you?

The character of cronyism between corporations and the state is fascism, properly understood, not liberalism.

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Well, it appears that Crash has at least 2 criteria for determining that someone/something is "liberal".
If the word "socialist" appears in the name and if they do not believe in absolute right and wrong. However it does seem that the word "socialist" might override the right/wrong issue since I don't think Adolph or the boys believed in absolute right and wrong but according to Crash they were still liberals cause of their party's name. Interesting.
So does he home school his kids or do they go to the appropriate conservative non-public school?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:22 PM
:think: I'm curious as to what CRASH's definition of liberal is. Then it might be easier to understand why he thinks that certain people generally thought of as conservative are liberals.



Liberals hate God

Don't believe in absolute right and wrong

They are pro-abortion

Pro-homosexual

They make lots of unnecessary laws so you need lawyers

They are evolutionists

Usually they are racist

They are socialist

They like adultery and pornography



Did I miss anything?

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Liberals hate God

Don't believe in absolute right and wrong

They are pro-abortion

Pro-homosexual

They make lots of unnecessary laws so you need lawyers

They are evolutionists

Usually they are racist

They are socialist

They like adultery and pornography



Did I miss anything?

And who was it who suggested Crash was paranoid?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:24 PM
The character of cronyism between corporations and the state is fascism, properly understood, not liberalism.

But thier moral fabric is pure liberalism.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM
And who was it who suggested Crash was paranoid?
Suggest all you want that is what a liberal is and you is one!:kookoo:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:29 PM
"David Schoenbaum argued in his book Hitler's Social Revolution: Class and Status in Nazi Germany, 1933-1939 that Nazism contained certain revolutionary and socialist aspects (although more in rhetoric than in reality), and it was no coincidence that the Nazis often found themselves in a struggle with the Communists for the same constituency. The DAP, which later became the Nazi Party, was formed in response and in opposition to a brief Communist revolt in Bavaria. While the Nazis opposed individualism and laissez faire capitalism, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing#Fascism_and_right-wing_politics) vigorous opposition to Communism and Social democracy was a founding and continuing tenet of National Socialism."
This would seem to me to put the Nazis pretty far from the right, although I'm not sure that it would be enough to make them liberals.

And they were pro abortion and several of thier leaders were homos and they had no problem with evolution/eugenics and they rejected Chrtistianity. If it walks like a liberal....

beefalobilly
November 17th, 2005, 03:33 PM
hahaha, you know that gays and lesbians were sent to the ovens during the holocaust right?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:37 PM
hahaha, you know that gays and lesbians were sent to the ovens during the holocaust right?

Well aware of it - many after they were sexually abused by the brownshirts. The documentation is in The Pink Triangle

beefalobilly
November 17th, 2005, 03:37 PM
ok, i just looked it up, i guess they weren't sent to the ovens like i originally said, not like others were, but they were arressted, sent to camps etc, so in other words, the nazis didn't support gays like you said.

beefalobilly
November 17th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Well aware of it - many after they were sexually abused by the brownshirts. The documentation is in The Pink Triangle

Ok, so if gays and lesbians were arrested, murdered or whatever by the nazis, then how do you say they're pro-homosexual

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Perhaps Crash needs a new type of list, one where you can pick one from column A, two from column B, etc.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Ok, so if gays and lesbians were arrested, murdered or whatever by the nazis, then how do you say they're pro-homosexual

Because they allowed many of them within thier ranks - the butch's of course!

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Liberals hate God

Don't believe in absolute right and wrong

They are pro-abortion

Pro-homosexual

They make lots of unnecessary laws so you need lawyers

They are evolutionists

Usually they are racist

They are socialist

They like adultery and pornography



Did I miss anything?

By your own criteria the Nazis do not fit the bill.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:51 PM
By your own criteria the Nazis do not fit the bill.

If they do ANY of these things they are liberal God haters and they are not right wing Christian.

Hey I just realized that I hijacked my own thread!
I'll start a new one about Liberal sinners!

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Oh yeah, and to make it worse, my wife is a public school teacher!!!!!!

Gerald
November 17th, 2005, 03:54 PM
By your own criteria the Nazis do not fit the bill.You're bothering CRASH with those pesky facts again... :chuckle:

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:54 PM
If they do ANY of these things they are liberal God haters and they are not right wing Christian.

Hey I just realized that I hijacked my own thread!
I'll start a new one about Liberal sinners!


As opposed to conservative sinners? Do you think God really cares whether the sinner is a liberal or a conservative? Does He not consider sin as sin?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Oh yeah, and to make it worse, my wife is a public school teacher!!!!!!

I sympathize. My Mom was one and my grandma was one and *gasp* my Grandfather was the superintendant of schools. While we are confessing the evil sins in our family you should also know that my uncle is a child molesting, homo, former public school teacher!!!!!!

So Ha!

Jukia
November 17th, 2005, 03:57 PM
I sympathize. My Mom was one and my grandma was one and *gasp* my Grandfather was the superintendant of schools. While we are confessing the evil sins in our family you should also know that my uncle is a child molesting, homo, former public school teacher!!!!!!

So Ha!

Ha is right, you got me beat.

Gerald
November 17th, 2005, 03:59 PM
...my uncle is a child molesting, homo, former public school teacher!!!!!!
And you're letting him keep breathing?

beefalobilly
November 17th, 2005, 04:11 PM
you make no sense crash, just because they let some into their ranks (i doubt they even knew that these people were gay), that somehow negates the fact that they obviously were officially against any kind of gay activity? They were arresting them and etc etc. You even said it yourself

Granite
November 17th, 2005, 04:27 PM
If they do ANY of these things they are liberal God haters and they are not right wing Christian.

Hey I just realized that I hijacked my own thread!
I'll start a new one about Liberal sinners!

So you just changed your definition. Nice trick, freakshow.

You are making less and less sense.

Gerald
November 17th, 2005, 04:40 PM
So you just changed your definition. Nice trick, freakshow.

You are making less and less sense.Maybe he's getting glue from OMEGA and Letsargue... :dizzy:

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Hanity will support a pro-abort for president
Coulter is a lawyer
Limbaugh is a republican hack in oxycotin
These are what we call liberals
:think: you say Coulter is a liberal because she's a lawyer and in another thread you say being liberal is a sin. Does that mean you don't think a Christian can be a lawyer?

Gerald
November 17th, 2005, 05:14 PM
:think: you say Coulter is a liberal because she's a lawyer and in another thread you say being liberal is a sin. Does that mean you don't think a Christian can be a lawyer?I think what CRASH is doing, in his usual ham-fisted fashion, is defining "liberal" as "whatever CRASH disagrees with".

koban
November 17th, 2005, 05:26 PM
What a :flamer::Commie: !

Mr. 5020
November 17th, 2005, 05:27 PM
What a :flamer::Commie: !
CRASH? Or Gerald? Or both?

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 05:29 PM
And they were pro abortion and several of thier leaders were homos and they had no problem with evolution/eugenics and they rejected Chrtistianity. If it walks like a liberal....
Different definitions of what "liberal" and "conservative" mean.....

kmoney
November 17th, 2005, 05:29 PM
I think what CRASH is doing, in his usual ham-fisted fashion, is defining "liberal" as "whatever CRASH disagrees with".
man, what a jerk, huh?

:chuckle:

Gerald
November 17th, 2005, 05:43 PM
CRASH? Or Gerald? Or both?CRASH, without a doubt. :devil:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 06:18 PM
And you're letting him keep breathing?

He doesn't call me anymore...:comeout: after our last short talk:vomit: about 7 years ago.:chuckle:

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 06:21 PM
:think: you say Coulter is a liberal because she's a lawyer and in another thread you say being liberal is a sin. Does that mean you don't think a Christian can be a lawyer?

K-Man This thread is about evil public schools - for your answer you'll need to go the the Lawyers are evil thread!

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 06:23 PM
CRASH? Or Gerald? Or both?

Maybe it's 5020, hard to tell, but I know it's not me and I don't think Gerald is a homo commie.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 06:24 PM
man, what a jerk, huh?

:chuckle:

Based on what, k-girl?

koban
November 17th, 2005, 06:40 PM
CRASH? Or Gerald? Or both?


Anybody who disagrees with me! :D

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:20 PM
Anybody who disagrees with me! :D

If you are a Christian and you send your kids to public school that is a sin.

koban
November 17th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Scriptural support?

Brother Vinny
November 17th, 2005, 10:25 PM
If you are a Christian and you send your kids to public school that is a sin.

Must be one of those sins pointed out in the book of Hezekiah.

keypurr
November 17th, 2005, 10:31 PM
Lets all pray for CRASH. He needs it.

koban
November 17th, 2005, 10:40 PM
Some who disagree are not Christians and some are, but all who send thier children away to be raised by the government schools are sinning.


I'm pretty sure that real Christians can't sin. So if real Christians can't sin and they send their children to public school, they aren't sinning.

If they're not real Christians, who cares where they send their children?

Do you care where Muslims send their children?

Brother Vinny
November 17th, 2005, 10:40 PM
While I wouldn't call the enrollment of a child in public school necessarily advisable (especially depending on what area the school's in--some public schools are worse than others), I wouldn't go so far as to call it sin. Sure, God wants what is best for us and our children, and more often than not, home schooling is just that. But, what if: the family's in the lower-middle class; Dad's away at work most of the day. Mom would teach but she just doesn't have confidence in her ability to do so. On top of this, she's recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and it's often a fight for her just to stay sane. Complicating this even further, the oldest child has a speech impediment that requires therapy, and dad's wages are just enough to provide the essentials, make payments to student loans, and maybe enjoy the very occasional luxury.

The budget cuts here and there, even were they to be made, would not even come close to paying for the oldest's speech lessons. But just across the street, the public school is offering free speech lessons once or twice a week to needful students. Is it a sin to want to see your child have a chance at normalcy under these circumstances?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:42 PM
Lets all pray for CRASH. He needs it.

Gee thanks!

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:44 PM
I'm pretty sure that real Christians can't sin. So if real Christians can't sin and they send their children to public school, they aren't sinning.

If they're not real Christians, who cares where they send their children?

Do you care where Muslims send their children?

Real Christians CAN sin. They do it all the time. Is that OK? No. But human nature such as it is....
Yes, I hope they don't send their chidren to the local public school to be destroyed either.

koban
November 17th, 2005, 10:47 PM
Real Christians CAN sin. They do it all the time. Is that OK? No. But human nature such as it is....
Yes, I hope they don't send their chidren to the local public school to be destroyed either.


You better take it up with SOTK, Lighthouse, Aimiel, Elohiym and others here who can explain it to you better than I can, but you're wrong.

Dead wrong.

keypurr
November 17th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Real Christians CAN sin. They do it all the time. Is that OK? No. But human nature such as it is....
Yes, I hope they don't send their chidren to the local public school to be destroyed either.
Friend, schools are the least of your worries. Tell me do you watch TV, go to the movies, listen to the music of today? All that garbage is being pumped into our lives everyday. And that is worse than the schools. This country is no longer "Under God" no matter what some people are telling you. The only way to combat it isto teach your children about God and hope they can understand what is going on in this world. We are at war with the spirit world that have powers that we can't even imagine. Thank God for Jesus Christ.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:53 PM
While I wouldn't call the enrollment of a child in public school necessarily advisable (especially depending on what area the school's in--some public schools are worse than others), I wouldn't go so far as to call it sin. Sure, God wants what is best for us and our children, and more often than not, home schooling is just that. But, what if: the family's in the lower-middle class; Dad's away at work most of the day. Mom would teach but she just doesn't have confidence in her ability to do so. On top of this, she's recently been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and it's often a fight for her just to stay sane. Complicating this even further, the oldest child has a speech impediment that requires therapy, and dad's wages are just enough to provide the essentials, make payments to student loans, and maybe enjoy the very occasional luxury.

The budget cuts here and there, even were they to be made, would not even come close to paying for the oldest's speech lessons. But just across the street, the public school is offering free speech lessons once or twice a week to needful students. Is it a sin to want to see your child have a chance at normalcy under these circumstances?
LOL! LOL! That's rich.:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Ok I've wiped the tears from my eyes. That is quite the scenario you came up with there.

Umm....I hope this isn't like a real life example. Enjoying occassional luxuries while the kids are destroyed morally? I just don't know...I think I would have to stick to my guns on this.
Let me ask you a question. If you are a Christian parents, you know the schools teach evil, god-less things ( like evolution, pro-abortion, pro-homo, hyper-enviro, socialism, and flat ourt anti-Christianism) and you send them there anyway beause you really don't want to spend too much time with your kids and you don't want to upset your comfortable lifestyle would it then be a sin????

koban
November 17th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Friend, schools are the least of your worries. Tell me do you watch TV, go to the movies, listen to the music of today? All that garbage is being pumped into our lives everyday. And that is worse than the schools. This country is no longer "Under God" no matter what some people are telling you. The only way to combat it isto teach your children about God and hope they can understand what is going on in this world. We are at war with the spirit world that have powers that we can't even imagine. Thank God for Jesus Christ.


Amen, bro!

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:55 PM
You better take it up with SOTK, Lighthouse, Aimiel, Elohiym and others here who can explain it to you better than I can, but you're wrong.
Dead wrong.
Great bring it on. If I am wrong I am willing to admit it.

koban
November 17th, 2005, 10:56 PM
LOL! LOL! That's rich.:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Ok I've wiped the tears from my eyes. That is quite the scenario you came up with there.

Umm....I hope this isn't like a real life example. Enjoying occassional luxuries while the kids are destroyed morally? I just don't know...I think I would have to stick to my guns on this.
Let me ask you a question. If you are a Christian parents, you know the schools teach evil, god-less things ( like evolution, pro-abortion, pro-homo, hyper-enviro, socialism, and flat ourt anti-Christianism) and you send them there anyway beause you really don't want to spend too much time with your kids and you don't want to upset your comfortable lifestyle would it then be a sin????


If you are saved, you aren't under the Law any more.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 10:57 PM
If you are saved, you aren't under the Law any more.

I am well aware of that and I am really excited that you know that, but does that mean we have the liberty to sin? God Forbid!

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Friend, schools are the least of your worries. Tell me do you watch TV, go to the movies, listen to the music of today? All that garbage is being pumped into our lives everyday. And that is worse than the schools. This country is no longer "Under God" no matter what some people are telling you. The only way to combat it isto teach your children about God and hope they can understand what is going on in this world. We are at war with the spirit world that have powers that we can't even imagine. Thank God for Jesus Christ.

Public schools are a huge worry. We are talking about the GNP!
I am the gatekeeper of my home.
I listen to Ted Nugent.
We watch movies like EL CID all the time. Thats right EL CID!
We are well aware of what the world is like - we go to college campuses and debate the debacherous students.
The flesh should be your biggest worry, not the spirit world.
Thank God for Jesus Christ.

Brother Vinny
November 17th, 2005, 11:11 PM
LOL! LOL! That's rich.:rotfl: :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:Ok I've wiped the tears from my eyes. That is quite the scenario you came up with there.

It's my scenario. I'm sure you think it's a hoot, but as Mark Twain once noted, "Everything is funny unless it's happening to you."



mm....I hope this isn't like a real life example. Enjoying occassional luxuries while the kids are destroyed morally?


Gee, CRASH, after one-and-a-half years in public school, my first grader's morals don't seem any the worse for wear. She loves church, is crazy about going to Awana, and is by-and-large a pleasure to be around.

And, again, the ten-to-twenty dollar per paycheck "entertainment budget" for the family wouldn't make a dent in the cost to have a speech therapist hired for my daughter.



Let me ask you a question. If you are a Christian parents, you know the schools teach evil, god-less things ( like evolution, pro-abortion, pro-homo, hyper-enviro, socialism, and flat ourt anti-Christianism) and you send them there anyway beause you really don't want to spend too much time with your kids and you don't want to upset your comfortable lifestyle would it then be a sin????

Whatever is not done out of faith, is sin. Your faith in God won't allow you to send your children to a public school, that's quite all right. My faith in God isn't prohibiting me from doing what's best for my daughter under the circumstances we're in.

keypurr
November 17th, 2005, 11:11 PM
I am well aware of that and I am really excited that you know that, but does that mean we have the liberty to sin? God Forbid!
Originaly posted by my friend Elohiym
The Facts
(You need to know)

Everyone reading this thread has sinned.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Romans 3:23

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:10

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:12

Anyone that continues to sin is spiritually dead, and will perish if they continue to sin.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

There are no exceptions for people that call themselves Christians while continuing to sin.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.1 Corinthians 6:9-11

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

God wants you to stop sinning.
...go, and sin no more. John 8:11

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4:1

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

He taught me that TRUE Christians do not sin. If you are the temple of the HolySpirit, there will be no room for sin. One cannot serve two masters. Keep in mind that sin is transgression of the law and the law is spiritual. Keep the law in your heart and you will do his will.
God Bless

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 11:30 PM
It's my scenario. I'm sure you think it's a hoot, but as Mark Twain once noted, "Everything is funny unless it's happening to you."

Gee, CRASH, after one-and-a-half years in public school, my first grader's morals don't seem any the worse for wear. She loves church, is crazy about going to Awana, and is by-and-large a pleasure to be around.

And, again, the ten-to-twenty dollar per paycheck "entertainment budget" for the family wouldn't make a dent in the cost to have a speech therapist hired fot my daughter.

Whatever is not done out of faith, is sin. Your faith in God won't allow you to send your children to a public school, that's quite all right. My faith in God isn't prohibiting me from doing what's best for my daughter under the circumstances we're in.

Fair enough Vinny, Fair enough, I should have known by all the details that this was a real lfe scenario:rain: and I take back all of my laughing.:o I will seriously consider your situation and get back to you on it. I would however like a yes or no or I don't know answer to my question or was your "whatever is of Faith" your answer to that?

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 11:34 PM
Originaly posted by my friend Elohiym
The Facts
(You need to know)

Everyone reading this thread has sinned.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;Romans 3:23

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:10

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:12

Anyone that continues to sin is spiritually dead, and will perish if they continue to sin.
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. John 8:34

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

There are no exceptions for people that call themselves Christians while continuing to sin.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.1 Corinthians 6:9-11

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ezekiel 18:24

God wants you to stop sinning.
...go, and sin no more. John 8:11

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1 Peter 4:1

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. 1 Corinthians 15:34

He taught me that TRUE Christians do not sin. If you are the temple of the HolySpirit, there will be no room for sin. One cannot serve two masters. Keep in mind that sin is transgression of the law and the law is spiritual. Keep the law in your heart and you will do his will.
God Bless

When you lay it out like that I can see why you believe that. It is the same thing the cult I was in used to believe. You should really read The Plot and get back to me on this.

Brother Vinny
November 17th, 2005, 11:40 PM
I would however like a yes or no or I don't know answer to my question or was your "whatever is of Faith" your answer to that?

Couched in precisely the terms you used, I would say, "Yes." You made the desicion an others vs. self proposition in which self was being exalted at the expense of others, which is definitely a no-no.

As financial freedom is inherently tied to political freedom, some of us aren't as free as others.

Maybe I could home school at night after I get home from work. I'll seriously consider the idea. I really wish the bipolar disorder didn't effect Tal the way it does.

Anyway, I'm off to bed.

CRASH
November 17th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Couched in precisely the terms you used, I would say, "Yes." You made the desicion an others vs. self proposition in which self was being exalted at the expense of others, which is definitely a no-no.
As financial freedom is inherently tied to political freedom, some of us aren't as free as others.
Maybe I could home school at night after I get home from work. I'll seriously consider the idea. I really wish the bipolar disorder didn't effect Tal the way it does.
Anyway, I'm off to bed.

Vinny, you are an honorable man. :first: I'll be praying for you.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Brother Vinny again.

SOTK
November 18th, 2005, 05:05 AM
That's all fine and dandy that you know a lot of people who have gone through public schools, but I know a lot who have also, and never gave up their faith. All my cousins have gone to public schools, except one homeschooled. We're all still in the faith, except four, who were never raised to be christians in the first place, and of those four, one is showing serious interest in christ, and the other is already completely immersed in the faith. Tell me how the public schools have ruined our faith?

And if you want to play your little "i have personal experience" game then I have personal experience that shows 66% of homeschoolers lose their faith, since I know three people personally who have been homeschooled, and two of them got their girlfriends pregnant and have left the church. So from my point of view, public schools have added one (possibly two) to the fold, and homeschools have subtracted two. :think:

Now, I say all this, not because I think public schools are superior (because I don't believe that, home schooling is probably superior in many ways), but just to show that because you have personal experience with something doesn't mean anything at all, and I personally don't feel that public schools are the den of the devil like you think they are. You may have seen heroin or whatever it was when you were in 5th grade, but I didn't even see a drug until I was a senior in high school. And I live in california (the den of iniquity).

CRASH,

Did you ever respond to the above post of beefalobilly? His point(s) are similar to some of mine which I have brought up in the past here.

I support Homeschooling. I know of several Christian families who homeschool, and I support their choice, however, I have chosen to not homeschool my children. With my firsthand observations of these particular families I have noticed problems. Two of the families have freely admitted the difficulties and both of these families are placing their kids in the Public School System next year. Not all Public Schools are plagued with the problems which you assert they all have. Not all homeschooled familes have the difficulties which I have observed. You are overgeneralizing the problems found with some Public Schools. I would be guilty of the same thing if I made the statement that all homeschoolers are plagued with difficulties.

Calling it a "sin" to send kids to the Public School system is just ridiculous and strikes me as a legalistic and irrational stance. Do you think drinking alcohol is a sin? Or listening to Lep Zepplin a sin? Come on, CRASH! Think about it.

koban
November 18th, 2005, 05:38 AM
I tried to tell him.


Originally Posted by CRASH

Real Christians CAN sin. They do it all the time. Is that OK? No. But human nature such as it is....
Yes, I hope they don't send their chidren to the local public school to be destroyed either.





You better take it up with SOTK, Lighthouse, Aimiel, Elohiym and others here who can explain it to you better than I can, but you're wrong.

Dead wrong.http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=940759&postcount=160

SOTK
November 18th, 2005, 05:42 AM
I tried to tell him.


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=940759&postcount=160

Yeah, I saw that but didn't want to hijack his thread. If he wants to discuss it, then I will. :)

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 09:36 AM
CRASH,

Did you ever respond to the above post of beefalobilly? His point(s) are similar to some of mine which I have brought up in the past here.

I support Homeschooling. I know of several Christian families who homeschool, and I support their choice, however, I have chosen to not homeschool my children. With my firsthand observations of these particular families I have noticed problems. Two of the families have freely admitted the difficulties and both of these families are placing their kids in the Public School System next year. Not all Public Schools are plagued with the problems which you assert they all have. Not all homeschooled familes have the difficulties which I have observed. You are overgeneralizing the problems found with some Public Schools. I would be guilty of the same thing if I made the statement that all homeschoolers are plagued with difficulties.

Calling it a "sin" to send kids to the Public School system is just ridiculous and strikes me as a legalistic and irrational stance. Do you think drinking alcohol is a sin? Or listening to Lep Zepplin a sin? Come on, CRASH! Think about it.
The reason it seems ridiculous to you is because your kids are in public school and you have made yourself comfortable with that arrangement. To say it was sin would require a large shift in your thinking and actions. Your "choice" is based on the stealing of money where the people often have no choice but to pay. The Bible never authorizes the government to take money from people at gunpoint, so that the government can raise everyone’s children in the nation in a God-less, anti-Christian (education - HA) system.



Of course my evidence is antidotal. But so is yours and everyone else’s. So we can only deal with related facts and peoples perceptions. The horror stories are pouring in from all fronts. Just because you homeschool and go to church it doesn't mean your kid will not grow up to be a murderer. Our countries laws are broker and the people our broken.



If you think my stance is wrong, it makes me think you did not read this whole thread.

See especially this (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24034&page=3&pp=15) page and this. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24034&page=4&pp=15) Take special note of #44 and #48.

What are your answers to the questions?



Please note also that I have said ignorance might be a defense and that I am sympathetic to Brother Vinny's dilemma.



Drinking is not a sin unless you get drunk. Led Zeppelin is not a sin unless you play it backwards, burn incense, smoke a bone and bow down to Buddha all at the same time.



You should listen to Brian Rorbaugh hosting Bob's last two shows and then get back to me on how great the government schools are. His kid was murdered in one.

Gerald
November 18th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Yes, I hope they don't send their chidren to the local public school to be destroyed either.You care whether Muslim children are destroyed?

Gerald
November 18th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I am the gatekeeper of my home.
I listen to Ted Nugent.And you let your kids listen to that crap?

We watch movies like EL CID all the time. Thats right EL CID!Great cure for insomnia, that movie is.

Granite
November 18th, 2005, 09:51 AM
"Led Zeppelin is not a sin unless you play it backwards, burn incense, smoke a bone and bow down to Buddha all at the same time."

And this is a sin because...?

shilohproject
November 18th, 2005, 09:56 AM
"Led Zeppelin is not a sin unless you play it backwards, burn incense, smoke a bone and bow down to Buddha all at the same time."

And this is a sin because...?Because to harm oneself is sinful. And clearly to "smoke a bone and bow down to Buddha...at the same time" would be risky behavior. Burns hurt!:cool:

Granite
November 18th, 2005, 10:12 AM
Touche!:thumb:

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 10:47 AM
God's nature in the old test.
A verse that I think is in Joshua.
yes, a parent or someone they have delegated to - which should be someone righteous and safe.
Yes of course. I make that point well above.
God's nature? Can you expand on that?

What is that verse in Joshua?

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 10:53 AM
Personal views aside, it would most certainly be a sin to teach your children these evil things!
False religion,
Pro-abortion,
Pro-child sex,
Pro-homosexual,
Pro-socialist,
Pro-rabid environmentalist,
Pro-evolution,
Anti-Christian,
Anti-child discipline

Therefore it would follow that if you delegate your responsibility and authority to someone else to teach these same evil things that would also be a sin! And that is exactly what is going on across America in every public school.

The only question left is: Are these parents really ignorant and is ignorance an excuse for this particular sin?"
You still have not given scriptural support that teaching your children these things and sending them to a school to teach these things are the same thing.

Also, I do not think that every school teaches these things, at least not blatantly, and at least not all of them. Pro-evolution is a given, but there are Christians who believe in it, are you calling them sinners?

And :duh: schools aren't going to teach abortion, homosexuality are wrong.

And :duh: schools aren't going to teach Christianity

False religion? You can say no religion is a false religion, so I guess that's another :duh:

Pro-socialist? In what ways?

Anti-child discipline? How so?


but in any case, I think what you first need to do is show that sending your kid to a school that teaches these things is a the same as teaching them yourself.

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 05:01 PM
God's nature? Can you expand on that?

What is that verse in Joshua?

I was tired when I wrote that - It's actually in Deuteronomy. You know the verses right?

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 05:06 PM
You still have not given scriptural support that teaching your children these things and sending them to a school to teach these things are the same thing.

Also, I do not think that every school teaches these things, at least not blatantly, and at least not all of them. Pro-evolution is a given, but there are Christians who believe in it, are you calling them sinners?

but in any case, I think what you first need to do is show that sending your kid to a school that teaches these things is a the same as teaching them yourself.

You've got to be kidding - you want me to prove common sense?:kookoo:

How about Romans 1:32?

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 05:31 PM
You still have not ....... teaching them yourself.

You should listen to Brian Rorbaugh hosting Bob's last two shows @ www.kgov.com and then get back to me on how great the government schools are. His kid was murdered in one.

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 07:01 PM
I was tired when I wrote that - It's actually in Deuteronomy. You know the verses right?
No, not sure what verse you're talking about. What is it?

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 07:05 PM
You've got to be kidding - you want me to prove common sense?:kookoo:

How about Romans 1:32?
No, I don't think Romans 1:32 says anything about what I asked. Do you have any other verses?

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 07:06 PM
You should listen to Brian Rorbaugh hosting Bob's last two shows @ www.kgov.com and then get back to me on how great the government schools are. His kid was murdered in one.
I never said government schools are "great". I said it's not sin to send your kids there.

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 07:24 PM
I never said government schools are "great". I said it's not sin to send your kids there.
Just listen to the shows and tell me if it is sin.

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 08:06 PM
Just listen to the shows and tell me if it is sin.
ok, I listened to both of them. I still don't think it's a sin.

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 10:17 PM
ok, I listened to both of them. I still don't think it's a sin.
What is sin?

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 10:52 PM
What is sin?
Well, I suppose a quick definition is doing something that is morally wrong. And the "morally wrong" is based on the word of God.

CRASH
November 18th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Well, I suppose a quick definition is doing something that is morally wrong. And the "morally wrong" is based on the word of God.

K-man it's just you and me here. :DAnd I'm leaving! :nananana:I'll catch ya later! :cheers:

:yawn::sleep:

kmoney
November 18th, 2005, 11:07 PM
K-man it's just you and me here. :DAnd I'm leaving! :nananana:I'll catch ya later! :cheers:

:yawn::sleep:
:wave2: Catch ya later CRASH

aplonis
November 19th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Let the dolts pull their right-wing, fanatical offspring out of the public schools if they like. Yet here in Kalamazoo, Michigan (where I live) they'll do the brats out of a 100% schollarship to any college in Michigan. It'd likely be wasted on them anyway.

kmoney
November 19th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Let the dolts pull their right-wing, fanatical offspring out of the public schools if they like. Yet here in Kalamazoo, Michigan (where I live) they'll do the brats out of a 100% schollarship to any college in Michigan. It'd likely be wasted on them anyway.
Why would it be wasted on them?

BillyBob
November 19th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Let the dolts pull their right-wing, fanatical offspring out of the public schools if they like. Yet here in Kalamazoo, Michigan (where I live) they'll do the brats out of a 100% schollarship to any college in Michigan. It'd likely be wasted on them anyway.

What are you trying to say?

CRASH
November 19th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Let the dolts pull their right-wing, fanatical offspring out of the public schools if they like. Yet here in Kalamazoo, Michigan (where I live) they'll do the brats out of a 100% schollarship to any college in Michigan. It'd likely be wasted on them anyway.
I would never send my kid to a college in Michiagan - he'd probably come out a Buddhist Homo like you.:down:

CRASH
November 19th, 2005, 05:19 PM
What are you trying to say?
He says hes a homo.

kmoney
November 19th, 2005, 05:24 PM
I would never send my kid to a college in Michiagan - he'd probably come out a Buddhist Homo like you.:down:
Actually he says he's married and has a child, so he's not a homo....

CRASH
November 19th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Actually he says he's married and has a child, so he's not a homo....

It's a cover. He's as gay as michael jackson.

kmoney
November 19th, 2005, 05:34 PM
It's a cover. He's as gay as michael jackson.
Is he as gay as Richard Simmons?

CRASH
November 19th, 2005, 05:38 PM
Is he as gay as Richard Simmons?
He is more gay than boy george.

kmoney
November 19th, 2005, 05:44 PM
He is more gay than boy george.
:shocked:

Is he as gay as AIDS?

CRASH
November 19th, 2005, 05:48 PM
:shocked:

Is he as gay as AIDS?

Even more gay than Gay mens bowel syndrome. :shocked:

fool
November 20th, 2005, 12:08 AM
I would never send my kid to a college in Michiagan
Hey now.
We spell that Michigan.
And we smile when we do it. :D

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 01:02 AM
The reason it seems ridiculous to you is because your kids are in public school and you have made yourself comfortable with that arrangement. To say it was sin would require a large shift in your thinking and actions.

Yes, to say it is sin is ridiculous and you can not prove it biblically. Yes, I've read some of your scripture references and they are a shot in the dark. First of all, I am not under the law. What you are setting up here, whether you believe it or not, is a legalistic argument. Second of all, I am incapable of sin as a Child of God. Christ died for me once. He crucified my old sin nature once. I am no longer a child of wrath. I am a Saint! To allege that Christians still sin is unbiblical as well as a slap in the face to Christ as well as the Holy Spirit. How many times do you feel Christ should die for Christians, CRASH?


Your "choice" is based on the stealing of money where the people often have no choice but to pay. The Bible never authorizes the government to take money from people at gunpoint, so that the government can raise everyone’s children in the nation in a God-less, anti-Christian (education - HA) system.

My choice is based on my own and particular personal experience and observations. The Schools in my particular city and my particular school district are excellent. I gladly and willingly pay to support them. Their "Excell Programs" are excellent. I have a say so in what subjects I want my children to learn and am invited to sit in on the classes. My wife and I are actively involved in our children's education.

Some of the homeschool advocates on this board go out of their way to state overgeneralizations about public schools, demonize all public schools, and make good Christian parents out to be evil and imbeciles. This is arrogant, presumptuous, and wrong. What makes you think that I, as a Christian parent, do not closely monitor my children's education? What makes you think that I do not instuct my children in the ways of the Lord? You arrogantly assume way too much!



Of course my evidence is antidotal. But so is yours and everyone else’s. So we can only deal with related facts and peoples perceptions.

See, that's just the point. Your evidence is your evidence. I don't really care what your evidence or experience is. You are not me. You are not the father of my children and do not live where I live. This is the problem I have with attacking other parent's educational choices. This is the problem I have with overgeneralizations. They don't work.


The horror stories are pouring in from all fronts. Just because you homeschool and go to church it doesn't mean your kid will not grow up to be a murderer. Our countries laws are broker and the people our broken.

I don't deny that. There have been some terrible atrocities within the public school system. Yes, there are some terrible schools out there. There are horrible teachers. Some of the subject matter is equally horrible. I am not denying that. Believe me, if I experienced this, or if I do experience it, my kids will be pulled out. Believe me. My point is that I haven't had any bad experiences yet and have not seen any bad experiences yet.

Are the schools that my kids go to perfect? No, they aren't. But this is where my role as a parent comes in. Just because my wife and I are not homeschooling does not mean we do not teach, and I don't just mean the Bible. Again, you presume too much.

I
f you think my stance is wrong, it makes me think you did not read this whole thread.

I have read the majority of the thread. No offense, but your points or conclusions aren't new around here. This topic and your accusations have come up again and again and again. You, and some others here, assume way too much and you do so arrogantly.



Drinking is not a sin unless you get drunk. Led Zeppelin is not a sin unless you play it backwards, burn incense, smoke a bone and bow down to Buddha all at the same time.

Huh?

`Love.
November 20th, 2005, 12:23 PM
Public school is not a sin. It IS however, a waste of money and in most cases an item used to push beliefs. (Almost never Christianity) Obviously, no one can make your children believe something, but all the child has to go on is what he's told and what he sees. Putting your children in public school and letting people consistently tell them things like Evolution and Homosexuality are ok, while getting negative responses from peers when saying they're not, WILL do something to your kid.

Yes, it's your choice what to do with your children. You could tell your children that Satan is God, that doesn't mean you should....or that you're right.

Waste of money? Yep! An underestimate average of $10,000 goes for each child's "education". Whoo, you could take your child to Africa for a safari with that! Oh, that's right, you can't. They're too busy getting told about how we came from apes and that Adam and Gary doing the naughty is cool! :thumb:

Where some of the information comes:
http://www.reformk12.com/archives/000174.nclk

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 05:42 PM
Public school is not a sin. It IS however, a waste of money and in most cases an item used to push beliefs. (Almost never Christianity) Obviously, no one can make your children believe something, but all the child has to go on is what he's told and what he sees. Putting your children in public school and letting people consistently tell them things like Evolution and Homosexuality are ok, while getting negative responses from peers when saying they're not, WILL do something to your kid.

Yes, there can be temptations at public schools. There also can be temptations within any peer group. For example, my oldest daughter's best friend is a homeschooled girl from church. My wife and I just recently found out that this girl has a boyfriend! :shocked: My wife and I do not believe in this obviously. Interestingly, my daughter states she has felt more peer pressure from this homeschooled girl than her peers from public school!

My point in this is it's how you raise your children.


Yes, it's your choice what to do with your children. You could tell your children that Satan is God, that doesn't mean you should....or that you're right.

Waste of money? Yep! An underestimate average of $10,000 goes for each child's "education". Whoo, you could take your child to Africa for a safari with that! Oh, that's right, you can't. They're too busy getting told about how we came from apes and that Adam and Gary doing the naughty is cool! :thumb:

:rolleyes:

Public Education may be a waste of money with some schools, yes. With others it is not. Again, another overgeneralization.

It amazes me how much power you guys place with the secular world. I don't know about anybody else, but I teach my kids to place their faith in God.

Shalom
November 20th, 2005, 06:01 PM
I agree to an extent SOTK. I think you can successfully raise good kids in the public school system. But I do think Private Christian schools or homeschooling is a better alternative if you can afford them or have the time for homeschooling. You're right you cant generalize all public school kids are going to be unbehaved and uneducated kids just like not all homeschooled kids will turn out socially immature or advanced in education. I agree it has alot to do with your parenting skills and what is being taught at home as far as where to place their faith and you have to teach them right thinking.

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 08:01 PM
I agree to an extent SOTK. I think you can successfully raise good kids in the public school system. But I do think Private Christian schools or homeschooling is a better alternative if you can afford them or have the time for homeschooling. You're right you cant generalize all public school kids are going to be unbehaved and uneducated kids just like not all homeschooled kids will turn out socially immature or advanced in education. I agree it has alot to do with your parenting skills and what is being taught at home as far as where to place their faith and you have to teach them right thinking.

:thumb:

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 08:44 PM
My reason for disliking public schools is that it is not the governments job to raise, discipline, feed or educate anyone's children. And there may be other things that would go into that list, but I can't think of any at the moment, I went to public school for 10 years.

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 08:50 PM
My reason for disliking public schools is that it is not the governments job to raise, discipline, feed or educate anyone's children. And there may be other things that would go into that list, but I can't think of any at the moment, I went to public school for 10 years.

Ummm....the government doesn't raise, discipline, or feed my kids. And, I agree, it's not their job. Also, the government does not educate my children either. The parents and the teacher do. :)

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 09:03 PM
The teacher is a government employee. The government supplies the money to the schools for the children's lunches. And, since the children are there for eight hours a day, five days a week, the teachers, and some other faculty members, are raising the children in a fashion. Yes, the parents raise their children as well, but they are not the only ones raising them. And they do discipline the children. Since public schools are a gevernment institution then the government is doing these things.

Mr. 5020
November 20th, 2005, 09:03 PM
I went to public school, and look how I turned out! :noid:

kmoney
November 20th, 2005, 09:06 PM
I went to public school, and look how I turned out! :noid:
I don't think you're making a strong case there fittytwunty

;)

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 09:06 PM
I went to public school, and look how I turned out! :noid:

:chuckle:

Mr. 5020
November 20th, 2005, 09:07 PM
I don't think you're making a strong case there fittytwunty

;)That's Mr. fittytwunty!

kmoney
November 20th, 2005, 09:09 PM
That's Mr. fittytwunty!
Yes sir. :e4e:

:chuckle:

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 09:11 PM
The teacher is a government employee. The government supplies the money to the schools for the children's lunches. And, since the children are there for eight hours a day, five days a week, the teachers, and some other faculty members, are raising the children in a fashion. Yes, the parents raise their children as well, but they are not the only ones raising them. And they do discipline the children. Since public schools are a gevernment institution then the government is doing these things.

Ummm...jujubee and I make their lunches. Teachers educate but only parents raise. I pay taxes and my taxes pay the teachers salaries. Teachers are not allowed to discipline unless you mean "talking to them". That type of "discipline" if you even want to call it that occurs by my children's aunts, uncles, grandparents, family friends, pastors, Christian leaders at my church, and other Christian friends also.

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Ummm...jujubee and I make their lunches. Teachers educate but only parents raise. I pay taxes and my taxes pay the teachers salaries. Teachers are not allowed to discipline unless you mean "talking to them". That type of "discipline" if you even want to call it that occurs by my children's aunts, uncles, grandparents, family friends, pastors, Christian leaders at my church, and other Christian friends also.
Okay, so the government doesn't feed your kids. But they feed other people's kids, don't they?

And though corporal punishment may no longer be allowed in public schools, sending them to the principal [or dean] is. And from ther they can be put in detention, suspended or even expelled. Then they have no education, unless you decide to homeschool at that time. And sometimes they can merely be kicked out of class for a period of time. Also, there is, in some schools, in school detention. In this case the students do not get the education they would otherwise get [which isn't much of an education in many cases], because they are not in class. In junior and senior high they can get ISD for something they did in one class, and then they miss all of their other classes for the day[s] because of one moment of misbehavior.

As for your family talking to your kids about their misbehaving, I have no problem with some family members disciplining children, especially when it comes to grandparents, aunts or uncles, and maybe cousins who are old enough to be their parents. And I also think siblings who are mature enough to be in authority over their younger siblings should be allowed to discipline. But friends and church leaders? No. Why? Because it is not their place. If they are having a problem with your child, they should bring it to you.

And if you don't think your children are in effect being raised by their educators, think again. Education is part of raising, and children tend to beleive what their teachers teach them. That has an effect on how they turn out. And disciplining is part of raising as well, and as I showed above, schools do discipline the children...

shilohproject
November 20th, 2005, 10:04 PM
The teacher is a government employee. The government supplies the money to the schools for the children's lunches. And, since the children are there for eight hours a day, five days a week, the teachers, and some other faculty members, are raising the children in a fashion. Yes, the parents raise their children as well, but they are not the only ones raising them. And they do discipline the children. Since public schools are a gevernment institution then the government is doing these things.All good stuff, when properly applied, a legitimate function of government/society.

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 10:12 PM
All good stuff, when properly applied, a legitimate function of government/society.

Do what? Are you saying it is good for schools to do these things?

shilohproject
November 20th, 2005, 10:13 PM
Do what? Are you saying it is good for schools to do these things?Yep. BTW, in Houston, they still paddle.

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 10:17 PM
There is seriously something wrong with you. Why do you think the government should do the things you're supposed to do?

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 10:17 PM
Yep. BTW, in Houston, they still paddle.


:up:

A good swat never hurts anyone! I sure learned my lesson as a youth!

shilohproject
November 20th, 2005, 10:25 PM
There is seriously something wrong with you. Why do you think the government should do the things you're supposed to do?There is something wrong with me because I disagree with you? Meaningless comment.

I do what I'm supposed to do. The issue of, say, feeding kids at school is a telling one. If they are not being provided lunches by their parents, society has a vested interest, on many levels, in seeing that they get a decent meal.

If parents are not disiplining their children, society has a vested interest in doing it. Etc, etc.

In the case where the parents do their jobs, then schools don't have to. It is only in the instances that a need arises that an arm of society/government must respond in some way.

It is, however, one of those gross overstatements to characterize this as some Big Brother type of government intervention. School boards are local and very open, even in a bid district like Houston's.

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 10:35 PM
There is something wrong with me because I disagree with you? Meaningless comment.
It's not because you disagree with me, it's that you think the government has the right to do what you should be doing, and even more disturbing is the fact that you truly think they should be doing it. It's a sad state of affairs.


I do what I'm supposed to do. The issue of, say, feeding kids at school is a telling one. If they are not being provided lunches by their parents, society has a vested interest, on many levels, in seeing that they get a decent meal.
If you were doing what you were supposed to do then the government wouldn't be doing any of it. It's not their job, it's yours.


If parents are not disiplining their children, society has a vested interest in doing it. Etc, etc.
This statement shows the heart of the problem, and you can't even see it.


In the case where the parents do their jobs, then schools don't have to. It is only in the instances that a need arises that an arm of society/government must respond in some way.
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Parents should do their jobs when their children when they are young. If they don't then the government should do what needs to be done, in some instances, when they are adults, but not before then. Unless they child commits a crime, punishable by law... And the government should never be responsible for feeding someone, unless they are being held on criminal charges. It is the churches job to feed the needy, and to take care of orphans and widows. Even if the government needs to take away a child from their parents, the church should be willing to take in the child. They couldn't do a worse job than the government does with such children.


It is, however, one of those gross overstatements to characterize this as some Big Brother type of government intervention. School boards are local and very open, even in a bid district like Houston's.
Public schools should not exist, period. The government should not even have the right to raise children, especially when those children have parents.

`Love.
November 20th, 2005, 10:35 PM
Yes, there can be temptations at public schools. There also can be temptations within any peer group. For example, my oldest daughter's best friend is a homeschooled girl from church. My wife and I just recently found out that this girl has a boyfriend! :shocked: My wife and I do not believe in this obviously. Interestingly, my daughter states she has felt more peer pressure from this homeschooled girl than her peers from public school!

Well, I'm talking about the principle, rather than the exact situation. Example: Would you send a child to an evolution seminar, knowing the child doesn't have the proper tools to defend his stand? That's the principle. That's what sending a seven year old to public school is. Life will be full of trials, that will eventually have to be gotten over, just don't overload your little children with them!!!

It's pure hypocrisy to deafen a child's ears to things like cursing or sex while have a teacher and a peer group drill evolution and homosexuality into thier heads. You might as well switch on the playboy channel, hand your child a hustler and send them off to a orgy. As you said, there can be temptations within any peer group.


My point in this is it's how you raise your children. \

Yes, it absolutely is! So, why not partake in another great gift from God? Like schooling your own kids?


Public Education may be a waste of money with some schools, yes. With others it is not. Again, another overgeneralization.

Can you give me an example of one that isn't? If the government can arrange the money for public schooling, they could arrange it to go to the home schooling of a child.

No building costs, employee costs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

(With all that money, most schools still have to pass laws to get more money, JUST TO HAVE AIR CONDITIONERS!!)


It amazes me how much power you guys place with the secular world. I don't know about anybody else, but I teach my kids to place their faith in God.

I don't know your children, but I do know a family with a similar outlook as you seem to have. The mother and father are both Christian. They try as best they can to teach their same values and beliefs to their children. I have never once seen them hesitate with their beliefs. I don't know of the others, but their oldest child is now questioning the validity of the bible in favor of an evolution-included Christian faith. To my knowledge, he has not told his parents of his thoughts, because he knows they would not agree. When I disagree with someone putting their children in public school, it isn't because I'm trying to prove some point. It's because seeing things like that makes me genuinely sad.

As I stated, I don't believe public schooling is a sin, and I don't think I can in any way decide if you should public school your children or not. If your situation is fine, then I am happy for you. However, I hope to God that you know your situation is fine. Our children are the next generation and gifts from God. We shouldn't take chances with them.

SOTK
November 20th, 2005, 10:35 PM
Okay, so the government doesn't feed your kids. But they feed other people's kids, don't they?

And though corporal punishment may no longer be allowed in public schools, sending them to the principal [or dean] is. And from ther they can be put in detention, suspended or even expelled. Then they have no education, unless you decide to homeschool at that time. And sometimes they can merely be kicked out of class for a period of time. Also, there is, in some schools, in school detention. In this case the students do not get the education they would otherwise get [which isn't much of an education in many cases], because they are not in class. In junior and senior high they can get ISD for something they did in one class, and then they miss all of their other classes for the day[s] because of one moment of misbehavior.

As for your family talking to your kids about their misbehaving, I have no problem with some family members disciplining children, especially when it comes to grandparents, aunts or uncles, and maybe cousins who are old enough to be their parents. And I also think siblings who are mature enough to be in authority over their younger siblings should be allowed to discipline. But friends and church leaders? No. Why? Because it is not their place. If they are having a problem with your child, they should bring it to you.

And if you don't think your children are in effect being raised by their educators, think again. Education is part of raising, and children tend to beleive what their teachers teach them. That has an effect on how they turn out. And disciplining is part of raising as well, and as I showed above, schools do discipline the children...

Lighthouse,

You seem to be speaking from experience. In other words, your experience. I have watched several older Christian parents raise their kids in the Lord while sending them to the public school. None of them are murderers, agnostics, pagans, or atheists. None of them are evil. My Senior Pastor's eldest child graduated from high school last year and is entering seminary. He doesn't seem to be too affected by the "evil raising" of the public school system.

I don't recall how you were raised, Lighthouse. Were you brought up in the Lord? If you weren't or if it was a weak instruction, I can see how you feel that you can be "raised" by your teachers.

Yes, of course discipline should be handled by the parents, but, in my opinion, you are being ridiculous if you believe parents should be the only people to discipline your children. For example, if you have kids some day and decide to send them to a Christian fellowship camp during the summer for a week or so, what are you gonna do? Come hold their hand at camp the entire time? I'm sure you won't. Because you won't, your kids will be under the supervision and direction of other adults. If they make an error, don't you think they should be immediatley disciplined?

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 11:01 PM
Lighthouse,

You seem to be speaking from experience. In other words, your experience. I have watched several older Christian parents raise their kids in the Lord while sending them to the public school. None of them are murderers, agnostics, pagans, or atheists. None of them are evil. My Senior Pastor's eldest child graduated from high school last year and is entering seminary. He doesn't seem to be too affected by the "evil raising" of the public school system.
1] I never said it was evil.
Now, I am not a murderer, either. And I have friends who went to public schools who are not these things. But my best friend did end up using drugs, as did a couple of my other friends. And only one of them was not raised in the church. The one who wasn't became a Christian and straightened up his life. He then returned to his ways after some things happened, because he was not taught how to trust in the Lord. But, since he was not raised in the church, his example is moot.

Now, very few of my Christian friends [raised in church] who were in public schools are still virgins. And I don't consider myself one, even though I've never had intercourse, because of things I've done that I shouldn't have.

One of those friends is swayed quite easily by others, even those who are not Christians. He doesn't really know what to believe anymore, though his parents are still both very strong Christians and active in their pursuit of God. As are some other members of his family. However, his youngest brother started drinking when he was under age, and continues to do so, getting drunk every time. He does this with his best friend, who was also raised in the church. And I also don't think either of them are virgins.

One of my friends was raised by a Catholic mother and a father who didn't go to church. Much of his family, on his mother's side, are Catholic. His next door neighbor, who babysat him took him to her church [Wesleyan], and he decided early on that he would rather be a Protestant than a Catholic. He went to public school and committed sexual acts with most of his girlfriends. And "went all the way" before he was married. And when he did get married he cheated on his wife, who also cheated on him. She was raised in church, and went to public school. They ended up divorced, and she continued to have sex with various other people. She did the same before they even started dating. They are both now remarried, and each had sex with their current spouses before marriage. And he had sex with various other women before he met his current wife. Also, he has had menage a trois with both wives.

I'll stop there.


I don't recall how you were raised, Lighthouse. Were you brought up in the Lord? If you weren't or if it was a weak instruction, I can see how you feel that you can be "raised" by your teachers.
I started going to church at the age of three. I believed it then, and have never stopped believing it. So it was obviously not weak. But my education has affected how I've turned out. And I was disciplined in school, which is a part of being raised.


Yes, of course discipline should be handled by the parents, but, in my opinion, you are being ridiculous if you believe parents should be the only people to discipline your children. For example, if you have kids some day and decide to send them to a Christian fellowship camp during the summer for a week or so, what are you gonna do? Come hold their hand at camp the entire time? I'm sure you won't. Because you won't, your kids will be under the supervision and direction of other adults. If they make an error, don't you think they should be immediatley disciplined?
How old do you expect they would be? I would not send young children away like that. I would have to give it some serious thought with older children, and am still not sure I would allow it if they were teens. However, if I did, I would hope they would be old enough to know to behave themselves. Why? Because I would have done my job when they were younger.

shilohproject
November 20th, 2005, 11:19 PM
If you were doing what you were supposed to do then the government wouldn't be doing any of it. It's not their job, it's yours.I don't have the time or money to raise all the children in this country who have poor parenting, if any, and who need to be fed. I take care of mine. We are not talking about my chldren here, Lighthouse, we're talking about those in need.

This statement shows the heart of the problem, and you can't even see it.The statement expresses the heart of the problem as I see it.



"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Parents should do their jobs when their children when they are young. If they don't then the government should do what needs to be done, in some instances, when they are adults, but not before then. Unless they child commits a crime, punishable by law... So you'd just wait until they are beyond saving socially and lock them up. I feel the love now!


And the government should never be responsible for feeding someone, unless they are being held on criminal charges.Finally your welfare program kicks in!

It is the churches job to feed the needy, and to take care of orphans and widows.It is our collective interest as a society.


Public schools should not exist, period. The government should not even have the right to raise children, especially when those children have parents.Fortunately your opinion is in the tiny minority. "Government," as you like to say (because it sounds so foreboding and scary?) has a vested interest in caring for children who are in need, in all of the areas of education, discipline and basic needs.

Lighthouse
November 20th, 2005, 11:37 PM
I don't have the time or money to raise all the children in this country who have poor parenting, if any, and who need to be fed. I take care of mine. We are not talking about my chldren here, Lighthouse, we're talking about those in need.
The church should be helping those in need, not the government. That is God's desire.


The statement expresses the heart of the problem as I see it.
It expresses the heart of the problem with your view, is what it does. And you still can't see the problem. That's sad.


So you'd just wait until they are beyond saving socially and lock them up. I feel the love now!
Locke them up? No! Never! Prison was never in God's plan. Discipline and punishment are. And those deserving of such should receive such.

And no one is beyond saving. Ever.


Finally your welfare program kicks in!
Welfare?! Welfare?! Are you nuts?! I would never support welfare!


It is our collective interest as a society.
Then the people should do something about it, instead of pawning it off on the government! Who, by the way, missapropriate our taxes in their spending on the needy. Many of those on these government programs are not as needy as they lead the government to believe, and the government knows this, yet they do nothing to squelch the problem. Nor do they give these people what they actually need. No one on these programs gets enough money to even live on their own, even if they have kids. And many of them, one of my roommates included, doesn't even take care of her kid, she lets her mom do it, and she still gets money for the kid, and then spends it on herself [including her drug habit]. She can't even pay her part of the rent, because she spends all the money on herself. And even if she did pay her part of the rent, she still doesn't make enough monsey to pay all of it, so she has to have roommates. Of course, if she would go get a job, she might have enough money to live on her own, unless she were to get kicked off of welfare since she was actually working. But, with the lack of education she has she wouldn't get a good enough job to support herself without welfare, let alone her kid. Which is another problem with this society. And the goevernment would probably kick her off of welfare if she got a job, and they fouond out about it.

I also have a friend who is on disability, and he needs to be on it, and he has to rely on his dad so that he can live on his own, and he just turned 28.


Fortunately your opinion is in the tiny minority. "Government," as you like to say (because it sounds so foreboding and scary?) has a vested interest in caring for children who are in need, in all of the areas of education, discipline and basic needs.
1] I say government, because it is the government. And there is nothing foreboding or scary about the government.
2] It's none of the governement's business, period.

shilohproject
November 21st, 2005, 12:04 AM
2] It's none of the governement's business, period.
It is if the people say it is.

Jukia
November 21st, 2005, 06:40 AM
Since my 4 kids went to public schools and my wife is a public high school teacher I have, I guess, a vested interest in this discussion. However, it is nice to see that the more recent posts have been in the nature of a discussion rather than crazed rants.

Shalom
November 21st, 2005, 10:11 AM
Lighthouse -- I agree with you that it is not the governments job to raise, feed, ect ect our children. My two children go to a private Christian school because I share this veiw also.

But what about those that cannot afford private schools or have to hold a job and cannot homeschool? What would you do with them? I know a friends sister that is a single mom. The dad is a loser "meth head" and a registered sexual offender who is no where to be found for any parenting help for the three boys they have. She is not the smartest person herself but she at least feeds them, loves them, and clothes them as best as she can given her monetary situation. Sadley the public school system is the only chance for an education those boys have realistically. We all know what we would do in a perfect world, but what about these kids and the others like them?

I think it would be great if all the public schools became private, and then maybe some kind of a system went into palce for the kids like the above ones allowed them to attend those schools. I dont know....what your thoughts lighthouse?

shilohproject
November 21st, 2005, 10:28 AM
Welfare?! Welfare?! Are you nuts?! I would never support welfare!
Why feed the prisoner, then?

Lighthouse
November 21st, 2005, 09:33 PM
It is if the people say it is.
:rolleyes:

The bottom line is that it shouldn't be their job. And God doesn't want it to be their job. As Christians we should be in tune with God's design, and not with man's. Especially when men are generally wicked, and ultimately unrighteous.

Lighthouse
November 21st, 2005, 09:36 PM
Lighthouse -- I agree with you that it is not the governments job to raise, feed, ect ect our children. My two children go to a private Christian school because I share this veiw also.

But what about those that cannot afford private schools or have to hold a job and cannot homeschool? What would you do with them? I know a friends sister that is a single mom. The dad is a loser "meth head" and a registered sexual offender who is no where to be found for any parenting help for the three boys they have. She is not the smartest person herself but she at least feeds them, loves them, and clothes them as best as she can given her monetary situation. Sadley the public school system is the only chance for an education those boys have realistically. We all know what we would do in a perfect world, but what about these kids and the others like them?

I think it would be great if all the public schools became private, and then maybe some kind of a system went into palce for the kids like the above ones allowed them to attend those schools. I dont know....what your thoughts lighthouse?
Honestly, I don't agree with private schooling either. I do believe that private schools are better at educating than public schools, but I still believe it is the parent's responsibility. And a single parent is not at work 2/7. And neither are couples who both work. There's always a time of day that they could use to teach their children.

Lighthouse
November 21st, 2005, 09:39 PM
Why feed the prisoner, then?
To keep them alive, so they can receive their punishment. And the only reason to hold a prisoner is either because they are awaiting trial, or they are awaiting the death penalty. And those awaiting the death penatly should only be there for a few days before they receive their punishment.

Those who are not guilty of a capital crime should receive their punishment and be sent on their way. And, to make sure that this works the punishment mus be painful. 40 lashes was God's idea, and He knows better than we do, so I think we should do what He wants.

kmoney
November 21st, 2005, 09:40 PM
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it." Parents should do their jobs when their children when they are young. If they don't then the government should do what needs to be done, in some instances, when they are adults, but not before then. Unless they child commits a crime, punishable by law... And the government should never be responsible for feeding someone, unless they are being held on criminal charges. It is the churches job to feed the needy, and to take care of orphans and widows. Even if the government needs to take away a child from their parents, the church should be willing to take in the child. They couldn't do a worse job than the government does with such children.
I don't believe that verse means education.

Lighthouse
November 21st, 2005, 09:48 PM
I wasn't referring specifically to education. Education is included in the raising of a child.

kmoney
November 21st, 2005, 09:52 PM
I wasn't referring specifically to education. Education is included in the raising of a child.
Is there another verse in the bible that says that parents are responsible for educating their children?

and what do you feel about college?

Lighthouse
November 21st, 2005, 09:58 PM
Is there another verse in the bible that says that parents are responsible for educating their children?
I'll have to look into that.


and what do you feel about college?
They're adults by then.

kmoney
November 21st, 2005, 10:01 PM
I'll have to look into that.
ok, because I don't know of any, and personally the verse you are currently using I don't believe even includes education.



They're adults by then.
I figured that's what you'd say, just thought I'd ask anyway. :up:

shilohproject
November 22nd, 2005, 06:42 PM
:rolleyes:

The bottom line is that it shouldn't be their job. And God doesn't want it to be their job. As Christians we should be in tune with God's design, and not with man's. Especially when men are generally wicked, and ultimately unrighteous.
God's design is that we should look out for one another, loving our neighbor as ourselves. If that is coordinated through an arm of the government (of the people, by the people, etc.), that's just fine by me.

Lighthouse
November 23rd, 2005, 06:48 PM
:bang:

Loving our neighbors as we love ourselves is not the government's position. It is our position as individuals. And letting the government do what it does in public schools is not loving our neighbors. And sending your kids to one is not loving your kids. So, how are you supposed to love your neighbors if you can't even love your kids? And I'm not implying that you don't have love for your kids, but love requires acts to be understood, and sending your kids to a public school is not an act of love. I don't even think sending them to a private school is an act of love.

CRASH
November 23rd, 2005, 08:38 PM
:bang:

Loving our neighbors as we love ourselves is not the government's position. It is our position as individuals. And letting the government do what it does in public schools is not loving our neighbors. And sending your kids to one is not loving your kids. So, how are you supposed to love your neighbors if you can't even love your kids? And I'm not implying that you don't have love for your kids, but love requires acts to be understood, and sending your kids to a public school is not an act of love. I don't even think sending them to a private school is an act of love.

I'm with you a 100% on that!:thumb: