PDA

View Full Version : Salvation by blood



ThePhy
November 14th, 2005, 06:36 PM
There are two things that I have heard Bob Enyart talk about that taken together, bring up a simple question that I have not heard him address. First is that history has shown that people in general, Christians included, are evil. For purposes of discussion, assume that 80% of all people grow up to basically reject God.

Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.

I presume Bob and many of his followers truly believe in these two ideas. Then simply put, if one of those supporters were presented with the opportunity to cause the untimely death of tens of thousands of children – say 50,000 children - should they do it? To do so would guarantee the person's own damnation, both from man and God, for murder. Yet their action promises eternal life with God to 40,000 souls that otherwise would have lost that as they grew into rebellious adults. Seems like a pretty worthwhile trade, the potential eternal damnation of 1 person against he assured eternal salvation of 40,000.

Knight
November 14th, 2005, 06:43 PM
Don't speak out of ignorance. Ooops, I guess you have no choice. :)

Seriously, you don't understand Bob's position and therefore you misrepresent him horribly.

I suggest you call Bob so you can be less ignorant of his position on such matters.

novice
November 14th, 2005, 06:47 PM
Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.
Will ThePhy be man enough to say "I am sorry, I stand corrected"?

Bob, has never said what you accuse him of saying in your opening post. That is not Bob's position! Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up out of thin air?

novice
November 14th, 2005, 06:52 PM
I assert ThePhy has a unhealthy infatuation with Bob Enyart and possibly the authorities should be notified. :noid:

Balder
November 14th, 2005, 07:23 PM
Will ThePhy be man enough to say "I am sorry, I stand corrected"?

Bob, has never said what you accuse him of saying in your opening post. That is not Bob's position! Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up out of thin air?
I'd be interested in hearing his position, or yours: Are those who die in infancy damned with the rest of the unsaved masses of humanity?

ThePhy
November 14th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Seriously, you don't understand Bob's position and therefore you misrepresent him horribly.I did not intentionally misrepresent Bob. If I was wrong about his views, can you specifically tell me where? I have no problem in admitting that I misrepresented him, if you show me what his real position is.

To help, is my claim that you believe that most people are going to hell incorrect? And then, is my claim that the souls of innocent children go to God incorrect? Those are the two premises that I built my scenario on.

And no, I am not particularly interesting calling Bob’s show. I would expect his followers to have considered this question themselves, long ago. Was I wrong? Can you answer without running to him for answers?

Aimiel
November 15th, 2005, 07:30 AM
Hmmm, should someone murder 50,000 children? :think:

fool
November 15th, 2005, 07:42 AM
Great question The Phy, I've probed around this before.
Though many maintain that the children belong to God I know that Knight says people that die before the age of accountablity are matured in heaven and then given a choice to be with God or go to hell. Details as to how this all goes down are pretty thin.
By the way, according to the Christians the person who does the murdering will go to heaven as well as long as he is washed in the blood of Jesus (saved).

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 07:47 AM
i'm incredibly interested to hear an explanation to this scenario, some clarification on the premises would be great too:thumb:

do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

i can't wait:)

Turbo
November 15th, 2005, 07:59 AM
i'm incredibly interested to hear an explanation to this scenario, some clarification on the premises would be great too:thumb:

do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

i can't wait:)
You've got a short memory, allsmiles. It was explained to you in recent months. Do you remember at all?

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 08:01 AM
You've got a short memory, allsmiles.

i do...:think:

what are you talking about?

Turbo
November 15th, 2005, 08:04 AM
i do...:think:(Maybe it's time to lay off the weed.)


what are you talking about?
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=853172#post853172

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 08:08 AM
(Maybe it's time to lay off the weed.)


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=853172#post853172

oh yes, i remember your unbiblical daydream hypothetical quite well now...

i don't recall you supplying biblical evidence for this assertion and i don't expect you to now, so please don't expect me to accept this as a final answer to this quandry.

seeing as how the Sempai has provided a miserable excuse for a satisfying answer, my questions remain as do i am certain the questions of ThePhy.

Turbo
November 15th, 2005, 08:14 AM
oh yes, i remember your unbiblical daydream hypothetical quite well now...

i don't recall you supplying biblical evidence for this assertion and i don't expect you to now, so please don't expect me to accept this as a final answer to this quandry.Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?

fool
November 15th, 2005, 08:34 AM
Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?
I don't recall anyone saying they had no choice.
What I recall from my exchange with Knight in the ask Knight thread was:
Children are matured, retards are unretarded, crazies are uncrazied, and then they get to make a choice.
There are obviously alot more questions that this answer spawns.
My main one is: How does Yaweh mature a child in heaven?

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 08:35 AM
Could you do me a favor and direct me to a post in which you (or anyone else for that matter) presented biblical evidence for the assertion that everyone who dies as a baby has no choice but to spend eternity in heaven with God?

Turbo, i can direct you to my first post on this thread...


do infants go directly to heaven when they die? will most of the infants grow up to be hellbound reprobates? if someone were to murder 50,000 infants in exchange for the fate of his own soul, would it be a worthy trade?

that's what i'm asking.

Knight
November 15th, 2005, 11:28 AM
I did not intentionally misrepresent Bob. If I was wrong about his views, can you specifically tell me where?OK...

You misrepresented him here...
Second – Bob maintains the commonly held idea that infants that tragically die in infancy go to live with God.Now, will you admit you spoke without actually having any idea whatsoever how Bob views this issue?

Turbo
November 15th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Turbo, i can direct you to my first post on this thread...



that's what i'm asking.
And you've been answered.

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 12:07 PM
:think:

perhaps i should have been a little more specific and asked for a scriptural foundation for the idea that infants, when they die, go to heaven, your lord and savior in conjunction with the other two persons of the trinity mature the infant to a point where they can choose between heaven and hell.

that does leave us with yet another quandry of course... is free will actually involved in this situation, seeing as how if one is faced with a real choice between heaven and torment, he/she would most certainly choose heaven.

but that is a digression of course:D

Turbo, can you provide scripture to support this? or have you poor guys been misrepresented again? if i have misrepresented you, please bare with me, explain it to me for real this time, use scripture and put me in my place, rather than your typical alternative of waiting for me to guess what you actually believe.

bob b
November 15th, 2005, 01:49 PM
:think:

perhaps i should have been a little more specific and asked for a scriptural foundation for the idea that infants, when they die, go to heaven, your lord and savior in conjunction with the other two persons of the trinity mature the infant to a point where they can choose between heaven and hell.

that does leave us with yet another quandry of course... is free will actually involved in this situation, seeing as how if one is faced with a real choice between heaven and torment, he/she would most certainly choose heaven.

but that is a digression of course:D

Turbo, can you provide scripture to support this? or have you poor guys been misrepresented again? if i have misrepresented you, please bare with me, explain it to me for real this time, use scripture and put me in my place, rather than your typical alternative of waiting for me to guess what you actually believe.

There does not seem to be any scripture which directly addresses the infant death scenario.

Being human, people want answers. They make them up as best they can. Being human answers, they may or may not be correct.

Some Christians believe that children are not responsible until they reach the "age of accountability".

Most pagans like to attack Christians. Why they do this I do not really understand. One would think that they would rather try to maximize their short time on Earth. I suppose they could claim that putting down believers is a form of recreation and they maximize their pleasure this way.

I doubt this rationalization. It could be that they hate the idea that some people have faith and they don't, but we can never know for sure. Even the people who do this may not really know the real reason for their behavior.

Only God knows for sure how He handles infant death. I trust Him, for His way will undoubtedly turn out to be the best one (and will also be very surprising too, I predict).

As far as free choice is concerned, people seem to have free choice regarding how much and what food they eat. Nevertheless, some people get obese, eat foods bad for them and as a result get sick, suffer and die before their time. Why? Too hard. I'll do it tomorrow.

Similarly some people know (or at least suspect) that if they do not repent and follow Christ they will die in their sins and not get to live with God. Still they put off repentance. Why?

I guess they feel they are good enough and don't need to repent. Besides, it's too hard, and so maybe I'll do it tomorrow.

At the risk of subjecting my life to ridicule I will reveal why I resisted Christ for so long.

I considered such an action a real risk. It would require me to follow Christ wherever He wanted me to go and to do whatever He wanted me to do.

I didn't want to give up the wheel of my car of life to anyone. I wanted to be in charge.

What if I were asked to leave my family and go somewhere to minister to the poor? Who would take care of my wife and children?

I couldn't do it. Not without some sort of veto power.

---------

But I finally did.

ThePhy
November 15th, 2005, 02:01 PM
From Knight:
Now, will you admit you spoke without actually having any idea whatsoever how Bob views this issue?No. I have heard Bob speak on the issue of what happens to children who die. Since I don't normally listen intently when Bob is discussing purely theological issues, it is quite possible that I subconsciously inferred more than he actually said on the issue. So pending such a time as I can provide a direct statement from Bob on the issue, I will gladly admit that the scenario I outlined may not be compatible with Bob’s theology.

I can, however, confidently say that some branches of Christianity do hold that children who die in infancy are saved. I think the moral dilemma my scenario proposed would still be an issue for them, even if it is not under Bob’s theological umbrella. You readers (not Bob's flock) who believe in the automatic salvation of children - how do you resolve the problem?

bob b
November 15th, 2005, 02:11 PM
From Knight:No. I have heard Bob speak on the issue of what happens to children who die. Since I don't normally listen intently when Bob is discussing purely theological issues, it is quite possible that I subconsciously inferred more than he actually said on the issue. So pending such a time as I can provide a direct statement from Bob on the issue, I will gladly admit that the scenario I outlined may not be compatible with Bob’s theology.

I can, however, confidently say that some branches of Christianity do hold that children who die in infancy are saved. I think the moral dilemma my scenario proposed would still be an issue for them, even if it is not under Bob’s theological umbrella. You readers (not Bob's flock) who believe in the automatic salvation of children - how do you resolve the problem?

Pagans seem to be obsessed with the infant death argument. I have heard from them many times this so-called "dilemma", that supposedly would cause us to kill infants to guarantee them a place in Paradise. Sounds vaguely like the thinking that terrorists go through when deciding to blow themselves up to kill infidels.

I know Bob well enough to imagine his answer, in fact I have heard him say the following a number of times: "Never do evil so that good will come of it".

Turbo
November 15th, 2005, 02:14 PM
that does leave us with yet another quandry of course... is free will actually involved in this situation,Yes.


seeing as how if one is faced with a real choice between heaven and torment, he/she would most certainly choose heaven. Lucifer didn't. Adam didn't. Eve didn't. As of yet, you haven't.

If you found out today that God is undeniably real and is exactly as He is described in the Bible, would you suddenly want to spend eternity with Him and with all us Christians? That is getting along with us rather than quarreling with us? Would you want to spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God if you discovered that He is real?

A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them. Who's to say that those who are murdered at infancy wouldn't likewise blame and resent God for their untimely deaths?


Turbo, can you provide scripture to support this?Not in a way that would satisfy an unbeliever who is convinced that the Calvinist's interpretation of the Bible is the "right" one and/or that the Bible is self-contradictory.


As far as I can tell, there are four possibilities when it comes to the eternal destiny of those who die prior to reaching "the age of accountability":

They all end up in heaven whether they want to be there or not.
They all end up in hell/the lake of fire.
God chooses (or has chosen since eternity past) specifically which slain babies end up in heaven with Him and which end up in the lake of fire apart from Him.
(Once they have become mature enough to make such a decision,) God allows the individuals to choose to love Him and be with Him eternally or to reject Him and be apart from Him eternally.

Only the latter of these four possibilities is consistant with the character of God which is revealed in Scripture.


rather than your typical alternative of waiting for me to guess what you actually believe.Why would you assert that my belief is "unbiblical" if you haven't been informed as to what my belief is? I have told you plainly what I believe and you know it.

allsmiles
November 15th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Yes.

Lucifer didn't. Adam didn't. Eve didn't. As of yet, you haven't.

If you found out today that God is undeniably real and is exactly as He is described in the Bible, would you suddenly want to spend eternity with Him and with all us Christians? That is getting along with us rather than quarreling with us? Would you want to spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God if you discovered that He is real?

:chuckle:

okay, good point... if i did find that out, beyond a shadow of a doubt... no, i'd want to go straight to hell. didn't think about it quite like that before sempai... thanks:thumb:


A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them. Who's to say that those who are murdered at infancy wouldn't likewise blame and resent God for their untimely deaths?

that's another good point. this is very philosophical of you turbo, i'm impressed. i myself don't blame your god or any god for that matter for anything that happens good or bad. this is life man, it's reality, there's a lot of stuff flying around out there, someone's bound to get hurt:)


Not in a way that would satisfy an unbeliever who is convinced that the Calvinist's interpretation of the Bible is the "right" one and/or that the Bible is self-contradictory.

fair enough, but i think this is a cop out and you're better than that. and as for calvinism being the "right" interpretation of the bible, i don't believe there is such a thing. in regards to soteriology i believe the bible supports a calvinistic stance more strongly than any other, but i still think it's all hooey.


As far as I can tell, there are four possibilities when it comes to the eternal destiny of those who die prior to reaching "the age of accountability":

They all end up in heaven whether they want to be there or not.
They all end up in hell/the lake of fire.
God chooses (or has chosen since eternity past) specifically which slain babies end up in heaven with Him and which end up in the lake of fire apart from Him.
(Once they have become mature enough to make such a decision,) God allows the individuals to choose to love Him and be with Him eternally or to reject Him and be apart from Him eternally.

Only the latter of these four possibilities is consistant with the character of God which is revealed in Scripture.

within a biblical paradigm (hope i'm using that word correctly) i can see how these are the only 4 options.


Why would you assert that my belief is "unbiblical" if you haven't been informed as to what my belief is? I have told you plainly what I believe and you know it.

you had already told me what your belief is and have refused my requests, or ignored my requests to supply biblical foundation for them so i had no other choice but to assume that it was unbiblical. now that i know for a fact that you're unwilling to give me biblical support because i obviously won't be able to understand... so, whatever.

The Berean
November 15th, 2005, 02:39 PM
There does not seem to be any scripture which directly addresses the infant death scenario.

Being human, people want answers. They make them up as best they can. Being human answers, they may or may not be correct.

Some Christians believe that children are not responsible until they reach the "age of accountability".

Most pagans like to attack Christians. Why they do this I do not really understand. One would think that they would rather try to maximize their short time on Earth. I suppose they could claim that putting down believers is a form of recreation and they maximize their pleasure this way.

I doubt this rationalization. It could be that they hate the idea that some people have faith and they don't, but we can never know for sure. Even the people who do this may not really know the real reason for their behavior.

Only God knows for sure how He handles infant death. I trust Him, for His way will undoubtedly turn out to be the best one (and will also be very surprising too, I predict).

As far as free choice is concerned, people seem to have free choice regarding how much and what food they eat. Nevertheless, some people get obese, eat foods bad for them and as a result get sick, suffer and die before their time. Why? Too hard. I'll do it tomorrow.

Similarly some people know (or at least suspect) that if they do not repent and follow Christ they will die in their sins and not get to live with God. Still they put off repentance. Why?

I guess they feel they are good enough and don't need to repent. Besides, it's too hard, and so maybe I'll do it tomorrow.

At the risk of subjecting my life to ridicule I will reveal why I resisted Christ for so long.

I considered such an action a real risk. It would require me to follow Christ wherever He wanted me to go and to do whatever He wanted me to do.

I didn't want to give up the wheel of my car of life to anyone. I wanted to be in charge.

What if I were asked to leave my family and go somewhere to minister to the poor? Who would take care of my wife and children?

I couldn't do it. Not without some sort of veto power.

---------

But I finally did.
:first:

The Berean
November 15th, 2005, 02:40 PM
Yes.

Lucifer didn't. Adam didn't. Eve didn't. As of yet, you haven't.

If you found out today that God is undeniably real and is exactly as He is described in the Bible, would you suddenly want to spend eternity with Him and with all us Christians? That is getting along with us rather than quarreling with us? Would you want to spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God if you discovered that He is real?

A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them. Who's to say that those who are murdered at infancy wouldn't likewise blame and resent God for their untimely deaths?

Not in a way that would satisfy an unbeliever who is convinced that the Calvinist's interpretation of the Bible is the "right" one and/or that the Bible is self-contradictory.


As far as I can tell, there are four possibilities when it comes to the eternal destiny of those who die prior to reaching "the age of accountability":

They all end up in heaven whether they want to be there or not.
They all end up in hell/the lake of fire.
God chooses (or has chosen since eternity past) specifically which slain babies end up in heaven with Him and which end up in the lake of fire apart from Him.
(Once they have become mature enough to make such a decision,) God allows the individuals to choose to love Him and be with Him eternally or to reject Him and be apart from Him eternally.

Only the latter of these four possibilities is consistant with the character of God which is revealed in Scripture.

Why would you assert that my belief is "unbiblical" if you haven't been informed as to what my belief is? I have told you plainly what I believe and you know it.

:first: part II

ThePhy
November 15th, 2005, 05:38 PM
From bob b:
Pagans seem to be obsessed with the infant death argument. I have heard from them many times this so-called "dilemma", that supposedly would cause us to kill infants to guarantee them a place in Paradise.It’s a 2+2=4 argument. The premises are simple. If one’s theology does not fit either of the two premises, then they have no problem. But if they do believe that children go to heaven and a significant fraction of adults are sinners, then it is a valid question. Are we “pagans” (whatever that means) not allowed to put two ideas together and ask the obvious question?

In fact there are periodically Christians who do kill their kids using exactly this kind of argument.

Knight
November 15th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Yes.

Lucifer didn't. Adam didn't. Eve didn't. As of yet, you haven't.

If you found out today that God is undeniably real and is exactly as He is described in the Bible, would you suddenly want to spend eternity with Him and with all us Christians? That is getting along with us rather than quarreling with us? Would you want to spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God if you discovered that He is real?

A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them. Who's to say that those who are murdered at infancy wouldn't likewise blame and resent God for their untimely deaths?

Not in a way that would satisfy an unbeliever who is convinced that the Calvinist's interpretation of the Bible is the "right" one and/or that the Bible is self-contradictory.


As far as I can tell, there are four possibilities when it comes to the eternal destiny of those who die prior to reaching "the age of accountability":



They all end up in heaven whether they want to be there or not.
They all end up in hell/the lake of fire.
God chooses (or has chosen since eternity past) specifically which slain babies end up in heaven with Him and which end up in the lake of fire apart from Him.
(Once they have become mature enough to make such a decision,) God allows the individuals to choose to love Him and be with Him eternally or to reject Him and be apart from Him eternally.

Only the latter of these four possibilities is consistant with the character of God which is revealed in Scripture.

Why would you assert that my belief is "unbiblical" if you haven't been informed as to what my belief is? I have told you plainly what I believe and you know it.wow... great post Turbo!

fool
November 15th, 2005, 09:47 PM
Who's to say that those who are murdered at infancy wouldn't likewise blame and resent God for their untimely deaths?

How would they know?
Would God tell them how they died?
Does God sit down with every soul and say something like "You were a fertilized egg that didn't implant itself in a uterus in time."
Or,
"You were fertilized in a petri dish and then frozen in liquid nitrogen and died from freezer burn"
How does He "mature" them?
Does he raise them personally?
Does he go to their ball games, and recitals, and camp outs?
Do they get to ask questions, and more questions, and more questions?
Do they get straight answers, or riddles?
How succesful is Yaweh at raising children?
You mentioned three famous failures.
What's Gods average for saving souls that he raised his own personal self?

wickwoman
November 17th, 2005, 02:49 PM
If you found out today that God is undeniably real and is exactly as He is described in the Bible, would you suddenly want to spend eternity with Him and with all us Christians? That is getting along with us rather than quarreling with us? Would you want to spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God if you discovered that He is real?.

Interesting phrasing. "Spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God . . . spend eternity with God and all us Christians. . . "

Does that include, Dave Miller, Chileice. If so, I'd say yes I'd enjoy an eternity with that kind of Christian. With the Clete's and the Turbo's? I think not.

And let's talk about this. Is eternity the only benefit of your faith? Because it seems to me that's all many Christians have to offer - escape from eternal torment. There are those of use who would like to have better lives right now. There are those of us who want to be better people. We want to be more compassionate and loving, more patient and kind. We want to make a difference in the lives of the poor and the disenfranchised. But what we see of most Christians is mostly rude behavior, intollerance, and unkindness. And we can be like that without your religion.


A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them.

Actually, most of us want nothing to do with YOUR RELIGION. And that's separate and apart from the true God, if one exists. Do do not confuse our lack of association with your religion with a lack of desire to know God. They do not go hand in hand necessarily.

It's a simple exercise in logic. People who are interested in the Christian slant on God look to see what affect the belief system has on the Christians. And when we see what it does or doesn't do, we go running from the Cletes of the world. It's easy to be a Clete - we don't need religion for that. But a Dave Miller, a Lovejoy or a Chileice, well that's another thing alltogether.

Turbo
November 17th, 2005, 10:23 PM
And that's separate and apart from the true God, if one exists.You're too much. :chuckle:

Turbo
November 18th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Interesting phrasing. "Spend eternity with Clete worshipping his God . . . spend eternity with God and all us Christians. . . "

Does that include, Dave Miller, Chileice. If so, I'd say yes I'd enjoy an eternity with that kind of Christian. Based on the blasphemous things that Dave Miller routinely posts, I give him the benefit of the doubt and regard him as false Christian.

But either way, there will never be a Christian like Dave Miller in Heaven. For if David Miller ends up in Heaven one day, he will be righteous through Christ and will no longer have his flesh. Therefore he will therefore no longer condone or defend homosexuality nor will he accuse God of sinning against men. He will share many of the qualities and ideals you observe in Clete and Poly and Nineveh and Shimei and Knight and despise.


With the Clete's and the Turbo's? I think not.:up: Thank you for further validating the point I was making to allsmiles (which he recognized and affirmed already).


And let's talk about this. Is eternity the only benefit of your faith?No.


Because it seems to me that's all many Christians have to offer - escape from eternal torment.Christians don't have to die in order to enjoy love and fellowship with God or each other. And no, it's not just like your ungodly friendships. Having experienced both I can tell you that it is altogether different.

Contrariwise, unbelievers don't have to die to be miserable and lonely. Only Christians can know true peace and happiness regardless of their earthly circumstances, whereas even unbelievers who seem to have it all are actually empty inside.


There are those of use who would like to have better lives right now. There are those of us who want to be better people. We want to be more compassionate and loving, more patient and kind. We want to make a difference in the lives of the poor and the disenfranchised.No matter how much you strive to be a better person, no matter how many good deeds you do, you will still be a lost sinner who needs Christ. And you will still know in your heart of hearts that you are unworthy of His presence. And there is only one Way to be made clean.

By the way, I remember reading some time ago that you don't believe in sin, but your desire to be a better person is a tacit admission that you are in fact a sinner and that even according to your own standard of righteousness, you don't measure up.


But what we see of most Christians is mostly rude behavior, intollerance, and unkindness. And we can be like that without your religion. If Knight had followed the Wickwoman Handbook for How to Be a Good Christian, lovemeorhateme would still be a lost homosexual. And you may think that would be a good thing, but I know that it would not.

But thank God that Knight loved lovemeorhateme enough to boldly confront him with the Truth rather than tolerating him straight to Hell as you would have had him do.



A lot of people blame God when bad things happen to them or are done to them by other people, and therefore want nothing to do with God. I'm sure you know your share of people like that and you may even be one of them. Actually, most of us want nothing to do with YOUR RELIGION.It's both. Some people reject God based on false teachings about Him, and some people reject God based on who He really is. (And often it's a combination of both.)


And that's separate and apart from the true God, if one exists.You'd be wise to figure out whether God exists before attempting to correct others' descriptions of Him. Suggested reading (url=http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7709).


Do do not confuse our lack of association with your religion with a lack of desire to know God. They do not go hand in hand necessarily.But you have already admitted that if the God I worship is the true God, you want nothing to do with the true God.


It's a simple exercise in logic.
Yes it is:

You want nothing to do with my God.
My God is the true God.
Therefore, you want nothing to do with the true God.

Now, I don't expect you to agree that the second premise is true. But I know that it is true.

Do you agree that if my second premise is in fact true, that my conclusion is true as well?


People who are interested in the Christian slant on God look to see what affect the belief system has on the Christians. And when we see what it does or doesn't do, we go running from the Cletes of the world. Clete is a bold witness for Christ who exposes wickedness wherever he sees it. You don't despise Clete for his faults, you despise him for his virtues. It's no wonder that you run from him as you run from the Christ.


And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. John 3:19-20


It's easy to be a Clete - we don't need religion for that. But a Dave Miller, a Lovejoy or a Chileice, well that's another thing alltogether.That's a low blow, lumping Lovejoy in with Dave Miller. Maybe you don't know Lovejoy as well as you think. ;)

Turbo
November 18th, 2005, 03:48 PM
How would they know?
Would God tell them how they died?
Does God sit down with every soul and say something like "You were a fertilized egg that didn't implant itself in a uterus in time."
Or,
"You were fertilized in a petri dish and then frozen in liquid nitrogen and died from freezer burn"I don't see why He wouldn't, especially if they asked.


How does He "mature" them?
Does he raise them personally?
Does he go to their ball games, and recitals, and camp outs?
Do they get to ask questions, and more questions, and more questions?
Do they get straight answers, or riddles?
How succesful is Yaweh at raising children?
You mentioned three famous failures.
What's Gods average for saving souls that he raised his own personal self? I have never been to Yankee Stadium. I have no idea how many hotdogs are sold there on average per game. I don't know what the seating capacity is or the exact price of the tickets. I don't know the average number of people per game who leave the game early to beat the traffic. I don't even know the name of anyone on the Yankees' current roster.

However none of that is necessary in order for me to know that Yankee Stadium exists and is in New York and that Major League Baseball games are played there, and that many people buy tickets to attend the games that are played there and many of them buy hotdogs to eat during those games and that some people leave games early to beat the traffic.

wickwoman
November 18th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Based on the blasphemous things that Dave Miller routinely posts, I give him the benefit of the doubt and regard him as false Christian.

Wow! That's arrogant!


Christians don't have to die in order to enjoy love and fellowship with God or each other. And no, it's not just like your ungodly friendships. Having experienced both I can tell you that it is altogether different.

I don't doubt you enjoy your life, Turbo. I enjoy mine as well. But I'm just being presumptuous I guess when I guess that you might want to be a better person - loving, kind? Kinda like the description in 1 Corinthians 13? Or am I wrong here? This is the point I was making. I've seen no evidence that the God you worship is capable of making you a better person. And, see I can be arrogant and mean all by myself. I don't need your God for that.



By the way, I remember reading some time ago that you don't believe in sin, but your desire to be a better person is a tacit admission that you are in fact a sinner and that even according to your own standard of righteousness, you don't measure up.

No, it's actually just a desire to be a good person. Which all of us have. Only you have to make yourself into this lowly unacceptable worm that Jesus had to die to save. And I just see myself as a normal human being with faults who can be improved. But, all in all, I'm happy with myself and my life and I feel quite fullfilled. And you can tell yourself I feel all empty inside if that somehow gives you some satisfaction. But you're not being honest if you do. Because it's a lie.


If Knight had followed the Wickwoman Handbook for How to Be a Good Christian, lovemeorhateme would still be a lost homosexual. And you may think that would be a good thing, but I know that it would not.

Uh, actually LMOHM had to be first damned to Hell in order to be saved. So Knight created the very condition from which he supposedly "saved" LMOHM. So excuse me if I don't give Knight a big pat on the back for saving LMOHM from an imaginary scenario. As far as I'm concerned, LMOHM was a human being worthy of respect and dignity then as well as now. I didn't have to drag him through the mud first, that's the difference.


It's both. Some people reject God based on false teachings about Him, and some people reject God based on who He really is. (And often it's a combination of both.)

What you should say here is people reject who YOU think God is. And who YOU think the Bible says he is. But as to who he ACTUALLY IS, neither of us knows for sure. I'm just being more honest than you are.



You want nothing to do with my God.
My God is the true God.
Therefore, you want nothing to do with the true God.

Now, I don't expect you to agree that the second premise is true. But I know that it is true. Do you agree that if my second premise is in fact true, that my conclusion is true as well?

That's exactly my point. If you and the Cletes of the world are demonstrative of the God that you serve, then certainly I would want nothing to do with him. And don't flatter yourself, Turbo, it's not cuz you such a terrific truth smacker. It's because generally you are rude, arrogant and mean. And I don't want to spend eternity with a rude, arrogant and mean God. So either you've misrepresented your God with your very poor behavior or your God is a monster and certainly nobody would want to spend eternity with him. And you can continue to make yourself feel better by telling yourself that it's just because I don't want to know the truth. But what you know deep inside is that you've failed miserably and have really been an awful example of what God's love can do for a person.


That's a low blow, lumping Lovejoy in with Dave Miller. Maybe you don't know Lovejoy as well as you think. ;)

I don't think Lovejoy would call Dave a false Christian, but I could be wrong. I only know Lovejoy is kind and a peacemaker. And the Bible says he is blessed and I agree.

wickwoman
November 18th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I'll reply to your questions on the other thread when I get a chance. I'm off for the weekend now. Hopefully I'll get a chance to log on tomorrow or Sunday, though.

fool
November 18th, 2005, 05:07 PM
I don't see why He wouldn't, especially if they asked.

I have never been to Yankee Stadium. I have no idea how many hotdogs are sold there on average per game. I don't know what the seating capacity is or the exact price of the tickets. I don't know the average number of people per game who leave the game early to beat the traffic. I don't even know the name of anyone on the Yankees' current roster.

However none of that is necessary in order for me to know that Yankee Stadium exists and is in New York and that Major League Baseball games are played there, and that many people buy tickets to attend the games that are played there and many of them buy hotdogs to eat during those games and that some people leave games early to beat the traffic.
Would you agree that there is a little bit more evidence for the existence of Yankee stadium than there is for Heaven?
Do you think that a few minutes research on the old www might get you all the exact answers to your questions about Yankee stadium and what all takes place there?
Do you understand how a reasonable person might percieve a huge difference between Yankee stadium and Heaven?

temple2006
November 18th, 2005, 05:29 PM
For goodness sake, can't you people (righteous Christians) understand that Jesus died because of us and not for us!

koban
November 18th, 2005, 05:39 PM
For goodness sake, can't you people (righteous Christians) understand that Jesus died because of us and not for us!


John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


I think you're right and wrong.

You get a 50% !

wickwoman
November 21st, 2005, 08:04 AM
Would you agree that there is a little bit more evidence for the existence of Yankee stadium than there is for Heaven?
Do you think that a few minutes research on the old www might get you all the exact answers to your questions about Yankee stadium and what all takes place there?
Do you understand how a reasonable person might percieve a huge difference between Yankee stadium and Heaven?

Sorry, fool, that's all he had in the ole manual.

I have to recognize the beauty of Turbo taking a flying leap and you screaming at him to look down just as he's midway over the vast canyon. :first:

Turbo
November 21st, 2005, 08:26 AM
Do you think that a few minutes research on the old www might get you all the exact answers to your questions about Yankee stadium and what all takes place there?Show me.

fool
November 21st, 2005, 08:58 PM
Show me.

temple2006
November 22nd, 2005, 11:04 PM
Koban, thnk you are 100% right.