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CRASH
October 12th, 2005, 11:30 PM
Is it ever OK for a Christian to hate someone?

We debated this topic 5 years ago at TOL and it was very enlightening.
Some said yes and some said no.
What say you?

Lucky
October 12th, 2005, 11:31 PM
Let me be the first to say YES.

God_Is_Truth
October 12th, 2005, 11:32 PM
i don't know. i haven't thought about it really. my inital answer, kinda my gut reaction, would be no. but it's subject to change. what about you?

CRASH
October 12th, 2005, 11:40 PM
i don't know. i haven't thought about it really. my inital answer, kinda my gut reaction, would be no. but it's subject to change. what about you?

I've been thinking about it for 5 years, but I don't want to let the cat out of the bag so to speak until lots of people have weighed in. Not that my opinion is some great revelation but I think it is an interesting topic that is applicable in everyday life. And I wonder what the prevailing thoughts are on the subject now at TOL.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 12:35 AM
There are some that have convinced themselves that it is OK sometimes.

I say no. Love your enemy. Love your neighbor. There's no room for hate anywhere between the two.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 07:06 AM
Not only are we to love our enemies, but Jesus also said, "Whosoever will, let him come..." and hating them isn't going to bring them. Now, tolerating thier sin and 'looking the other way' is a different thing.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 07:13 AM
Its okay to hate some people. But, maybe the rules are different for me, not being a christian. There are just some people that I hate and wouldnt mind bad things happening to.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 07:16 AM
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 07:17 AM
:cool:

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 07:24 AM
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

Who said anything about hating this guy in darkness, he knows I hate him. He hates me right back. Thanks for the thought though.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 07:29 AM
I didn't say you hate anyone in darkness, but The Word of God says that you're in the darkness, that darkness is where you reside, and so you can't see where you are going. You don't realize that you're headed to destruction 'till you're already destroyed because you're walking in blindness. The god of this world has blinded you so that you can't see The Truth and come to The Lord for salvation before you are lost forever.

bling
October 13th, 2005, 08:08 AM
I think it is wrong to hate someone unless you include Satan as being someone and then I think you can hate him.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 08:46 AM
I didn't say you hate anyone in darkness, but The Word of God says that you're in the darkness, that darkness is where you reside, and so you can't see where you are going. You don't realize that you're headed to destruction 'till you're already destroyed because you're walking in blindness. The god of this world has blinded you so that you can't see The Truth and come to The Lord for salvation before you are lost forever.

Listen dude, I was a christian for the majority of my life, I know all about it, all I'm saying is, for a christian to say that they dont hate any one, espetialy people on this site, is totaly bogus. Just read through the posts on the "Coming Out Holiday", from my personal experiance christians hate a whole lot of people. Gays, Muslims, people who dont agree with them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, people hate, I hate this dude for very good reasons.

LiveForChrist
October 13th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Listen dude, I was a christian for the majority of my life, I know all about it, all I'm saying is, for a christian to say that they dont hate any one, espetialy people on this site, is totaly bogus. Just read through the posts on the "Coming Out Holiday", from my personal experiance christians hate a whole lot of people. Gays, Muslims, people who dont agree with them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, people hate, I hate this dude for very good reasons.

Your right, as Christian we are not perfect, which is why Jesus died for us. Jesus said to Love our enemies, Love those who do all kinds of bad things against us, Love everyone. As a Christian we should not be hating anyone, we can hate the sin, but not the person. Just as Jesus loved is how we should love.

The Berean
October 13th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Listen dude, I was a christian for the majority of my life, I know all about it, all I'm saying is, for a christian to say that they dont hate any one, espetialy people on this site, is totaly bogus. Just read through the posts on the "Coming Out Holiday", from my personal experiance christians hate a whole lot of people. Gays, Muslims, people who dont agree with them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, people hate, I hate this dude for very good reasons.
How long were you a Christian?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 10:15 AM
Hate (in and of itself) is morally neutral.

There are righteous forms of hatred and there are unrighteous forms of hatred.

Righteous hatred...
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Unrighteous hatred...
Leviticus 19:17 You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

billwald
October 13th, 2005, 10:15 AM
No, it is not "Christian" to hate anyone.

Second, it is bad for one's mental state to hate anyone.

Third, hate is hard work and not worth the effort.

ShadowMaid
October 13th, 2005, 10:15 AM
Can you separate a sinner from his sin? :think:

LiveForChrist
October 13th, 2005, 10:20 AM
We are no longer bound by sin, but are free from it because of Jesus. However we still live sinful lives, because we are still of this world, and still are tempted by the flesh and by Satan.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 10:24 AM
Bill? Or the Bible?

Bill says...
No, it is not "Christian" to hate anyone.

The Bible says...
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 10:33 AM
Listen dude, I was a christian for the majority of my life, I know all about it, all I'm saying is, for a christian to say that they dont hate any one, espetialy people on this site, is totaly bogus. Just read through the posts on the "Coming Out Holiday", from my personal experiance christians hate a whole lot of people. Gays, Muslims, people who dont agree with them. I'm not trying to pick a fight, people hate, I hate this dude for very good reasons.Those reasons are the darkness that you refuse to acknowledge has you enshrouded. I have plenty of people I could hate, including queers and murderers, were I not obedient to The Lord, Who said we were to love our enemies. Mocking someone, opposing their point of view or even calling them a sinner isn't hatred, but looking the other way and ignoring sin is. I don't hate anyone, in spite of your tainted view of me. I hate a lot of things a lot of people do, but hating someone's sin isn't equal to hating the person who is sinning. Sinners are merely doing what they're supposed to, sinning. You can't fault them for that, merely attempt to get the truth across to them about the consequences, the eternal ones that is.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.Jesus said love your enemies. What are you going to do?

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 10:57 AM
Many choose to disobey Him. As for me and my house, we will follow The Lord.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:02 AM
No, it is not OK to hate anyone. There is no room in the Bible for me to hate someone. Hate is nothing but destructive. It is a highly destructive emotion.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:03 AM
Hatred of a person is different to hatred of something that person is doing.

ShadowMaid
October 13th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Hatred of a person is different to hatred of something that person is doing.

Can they really be separated?

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Those reasons are the darkness that you refuse to acknowledge has you enshrouded. I have plenty of people I could hate, including queers and murderers, were I not obedient to The Lord, Who said we were to love our enemies. Mocking someone, opposing their point of view or even calling them a sinner isn't hatred, but looking the other way and ignoring sin is. I don't hate anyone, in spite of your tainted view of me. I hate a lot of things a lot of people do, but hating someone's sin isn't equal to hating the person who is sinning. Sinners are merely doing what they're supposed to, sinning. You can't fault them for that, merely attempt to get the truth across to them about the consequences, the eternal ones that is.

Its very conveniant for christians to be able to say, no I really dont hate you, its just your sin I hate. The realization I've come to since I havent been a christian is that, the rest of the world doesnt see that distinction because they dont see a problem with the "sin", they just see hate, thats it.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 11:08 AM
Can they really be separated?Yes. Have you ever had a relative that does something that you know is destroying them? You come to have a rabid hate for the particular sin, but your love for that person remains stronger than ever.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:09 AM
There is no room in the Bible for me to hate someone. Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

What do you suppose "perfect hatred" means?

firechyld
October 13th, 2005, 11:10 AM
I'm not a Christian, but personally I don't hate anyone. That's not a moral stance... I just can't do it. I can manage an intense dislike for a while, and I can maintain a "preference not to have in my life", but anything stronger than that just doesn't stick. Eventually it all fades into one of the options above.

*shrug*

I've tried for years to figure out why this is, because I think my life would be easier if I could hate people. Others seem to gain such satisfaction and reassurance out of it. And I'm certainly not without people in my life who "deserve" to be hated. But all of them... my rapist, my abuser, that chick next door who always wakes me up in the early morning... just stop seeming important enough for me to maintain such a strong emotive charge against. I guess I just feel I have more important things to worry about.

Apologies... I know this is a deviation from the topic. But it's something that I think about a lot, and... well, I guess I'm wondering if anyone has any input.

But feel free not to leave it here. Back to your on-topic type discussions. :)

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:10 AM
How long were you a Christian?

I first asked christ to save me at the age of three, then again to "make sure" at around six or seven. I had gotten myself into some trouble and could have been shipped off to Juvie. Then I lost it at around eighteen. I grew up in a very christian home, my father is very well read in the scriptures and christian theology, so I grew up learning and knowing the word for as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest memories are getting into arguments with some of my non-christian friends.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:11 AM
Jesus said love your enemies. What are you going to do?Love and hate are not equal opposites.

You should love your enemy enough to hate him. Then and only then might he repent.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:12 AM
I first asked christ to save me at the age of three, then again to "make sure" at around six or seven. I had gotten myself into some trouble and could have been shipped off to Juvie. Then I lost it at around eighteen.If all of that is true then you were never sealed by the Holy Spirit and are going to hell.

Just thought you might want to know that fact.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 11:14 AM
What do you suppose "perfect hatred" means?Jesus gave an ORDER in unambigious terms. He didn't say "Love your enemies, but you can actually perfectly hate them, like david did." No. He said "love your enemies". That was it. No room for hatred. No matter how many old testament verses you pull out that say "God hates this person" or "David hated that person", it doesn't change the fact that Jesus commanded us directly to love our enemies and love our neighbor. As a Christian, I follow what Jesus said. I don't have to rationalize hate in the old testament. I don't have to look for ways to let my flesh through so I can hate like I want to. No. That's not my place. My place is to love, as I was told.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 11:15 AM
If all of that is true then you were never sealed by the Holy Spirit and are going to hell.Did God know he was going to fall away?

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

What do you suppose "perfect hatred" means?

To me, 'perfect hatred' sounds like an oxymoron. I'm not quite sure. However, I am 100% sure that Jesus always told us to love one another, whether enemies or friends, whoever. I see nowhere where we are commanded to hate anyone.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Its very conveniant for christians to be able to say, no I really dont hate you, its just your sin I hate. The realization I've come to since I havent been a christian is that, the rest of the world doesnt see that distinction because they dont see a problem with the "sin", they just see hate, thats it.Naturally. That's why it's called darkness, because you don't see what you're stumbling over. :cool: :devil:

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Yes. Have you ever had a relative that does something that you know is destroying them? You come to have a rabid hate for the particular sin, but your love for that person remains stronger than ever.I have a drunk for a brother-in-law that this applies to, specifically. Yes. I know exactly what you mean.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Love and hate are not equal opposites.

You should love your enemy enough to hate him. Then and only then might he repent.
They will ONLY repent if you hate them?
There is NO WAY to call someone to repentance without hating them?

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Naturally. That's why it's called darkness, because you don't see what you're stumbling over. :cool: :devil:

:thumb:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:17 AM
They will ONLY repent if you hate them?
There is NO WAY to call someone to repentance without hating them?I am speaking of enemies as in evil enemies. Not just your typical "lost" soul.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:20 AM
I am speaking of enemies as in evil enemies. Not just your typical "lost" soul.

Where does the Bible tell us to hate? Actually command us to 'hate someone to repentance?' :think:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:20 AM
To me, 'perfect hatred' sounds like an oxymoron. I'm not quite sure. However, I am 100% sure that Jesus always told us to love one another, whether enemies or friends, whoever. I see nowhere where we are commanded to hate anyone.Maybe your missing the point. :think:

Maybe the point is that love is more than just acceptance and tolerance. Maybe love could include perfect hatred for a wicked enemy. For if that perfect hatred helped the wicked realize they were wicked and then they later repented, your hatred would have been the most loving thing you could have done.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:21 AM
If all of that is true then you were never sealed by the Holy Spirit and are going to hell.

Just thought you might want to know that fact.

I can see where you would say that Knight, really, but doesnt the bible say you'll know them by their fruits? From the age of three to eighteen I was a christian, I went to church every sunday, helpped out in the community, donated my time and energy to helpping the church, I was going to go on a mission trip to Brazil but money problems kept me from going, I was a christian through and through.

I believed every word of it, and if some one had put a gun to my head and asked me if I thought I was going to heaven, I would have answered yes and died content in knowing thats where I was going. I was a christian, through and through. And according to some, I'm still saved, just going through a relaps, but once saved always saved. Others, say I'm doomed to hell, and if thats so, well, to bad for me.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Jesus gave an ORDER in unambigious terms. He didn't say "Love your enemies, but you can actually perfectly hate them, like david did." No. He said "love your enemies". That was it. No room for hatred. No matter how many old testament verses you pull out that say "God hates this person" or "David hated that person", it doesn't change the fact that Jesus commanded us directly to love our enemies and love our neighbor. As a Christian, I follow what Jesus said. I don't have to rationalize hate in the old testament. I don't have to look for ways to let my flesh through so I can hate like I want to. No. That's not my place. My place is to love, as I was told.Amen. :thumb:

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 11:22 AM
Love and hate are not equal opposites.

You should love your enemy enough to hate him. Then and only then might he repent. Perhaps you could tell me how to do that. Don't give me "well the hating drives them to Christ, and then they go to heaven. So that's really loving them". That's a pathetic convluted argument which falls on its face. How many sinners did Jesus hate to drive them towards Himself? Look at the world's response to Christian hate. Sure made them want Jesus, didn't it? No. Why would they want to be like us? Love always elicits a better response than hate.

We are told to love. We are told to be gentle with everyone. If you have convinced yourself that this somehow excuses you to hate people then you are wrong.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:23 AM
Where does the Bible tell us to hate? Actually command us to 'hate someone to repentance?' :think:Well I already showed you one... here is another...

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Abhor literally means hate.

Romans 12:9 pretty much sums up the argument. Loving wickedness is actually unrighteously hating someone, yet hating wickedness is the most loving thing you could do for the wicked.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:23 AM
I am speaking of enemies as in evil enemies. Not just your typical "lost" soul.
ok, that makes more sense to me know.
but I still question making it such an absolute state. I think hate could sometimes drive your enemies away. I guess it depends on how you show your hatred...

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:26 AM
How many sinners did Jesus hate to drive them towards Himself?An infinite amount.

Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 “For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 “and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Maybe your missing the point. :think:

Maybe the point is that love is more than just acceptance and tolerance. Maybe love could include perfect hatred for a wicked enemy. For if that perfect hatred helped the wicked realize they were wicked and then they later repented, your hatred would have been the most loving thing you could have done.

I can see the point there. I can see exactly where you are coming from. However, I disagree.

If I know someone who is in sin, how should I approach them? If I show hatred to them, then I will put them right off even wanting to know the first thing about salvation. I have spoken to people in the past, who refuse to have anything to do with salvation, as they can't stand the fact that, in their own words, 'Christians are so judgemental and hateful.'

Now, if I approach them with love, as in openly showing them love, they are far more likely to listen.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:28 AM
Well I already showed you one... here is another...

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Abhor literally means hate.

Romans 12:9 pretty much sums up the argument. Loving wickedness is actually unrighteously hating someone, yet hating wickedness is the most loving thing you could do for the wicked.

I don't buy your interpretation there. I really can't see it.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:29 AM
Somehow I just can't quite hear Jesus saying, "Get that woman off my feet, why is she putting that perfume on me with her dirty hair, she's a hooker, somebody get her off of me, I hate hookers." I also don't think He said, "Get away from this well you adulteress, I hate sinners." He didn't say, "Peter, I hate you," He said, "Get thee behind me, Satan..." because His hatred was against sin, not the sinner. He didn't even tell Satan that He hated Him, He merely rebuked him and put him in his place with The Word of God.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:30 AM
I guess it depends on how you show your hatred...Imagine a child raping pedophile.

Should he be loved by acceptance and tolerance? Or should he be loved by abhoring his wickedness?

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:30 AM
An infinite amount.

Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 “For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 “and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ For the sake of Jesus I find that I hate my family more than I do The Lord, but that doesn't detract from my love for them, or mean that the only affection I have towards them because they're lost sinners is hatred.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:31 AM
I don't buy your interpretation there. I really can't see it.That's because you are a pervert.

fool
October 13th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Imagine a child raping pedophile.

Should he be loved by acceptance and tolerance? Or should he be loved by abhoring his wickedness?
He should be loved with a bullet in his head.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:32 AM
He should be loved with a bullet in his head.On this we agree!

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 11:36 AM
That's because you are a pervert.

Knight, I am not a pervert. I am a human being who is seeking the truth about God, and the Bible. Nothing more and nothing less. Just ask HisLight for instance, and she can tell you the truth of that.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Knight, I am not a pervert. I am a human being who is seeking the truth about God, and the Bible. Nothing more and nothing less. Just ask HisLight for instance, and she can tell you the truth of that.Arn't you a homo?

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Imagine a child raping pedophile.

Should he be loved by acceptance and tolerance? Or should he be loved by abhoring his wickedness?
I think he should be executed. And if it was a child I knew I'd want to kill him myself.

But I think maybe we should try to spell out what hating someone like that would mean. What is involved in it? Calling them names? Screaming at them? Ignoring them? Killing them?

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:41 AM
See this is what I dont get, there seems to be a ton of animosity here, people going back and forth over something that seems that it should be simple. Hate or dont hate. But all of you are christians right? But you all have different interpretations of the same book, if its all the same and if the holy spirt is in all of you, why are you all seemingly reading the same book but garnering different meanings from it. If its from the same god and all of you are saved by the same holy spirt, then why dont all of you agree?

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Arn't you a homo?
Do you feel that his ability to understand biblical hate is hindered by his homosexuality?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:43 AM
But you all have different interpretations of the same book, if its all the same and if the holy spirt is in all of you, why are you all seemingly reading the same book but garnering different meanings from it. If its from the same god and all of you are saved by the same holy spirt, then why dont all of you agree?The flesh is weak and the truth is not always the "easy road" therefore many if not most Christians give in to lies and cliches.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Hating them would not only involve wanting them dead so badly that one contemplates the possibility to the point of fantasizing about killing them, but considering doing it.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Do you feel that his ability to understand biblical hate is hindered by his homosexuality?It's rather obvious I think.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Hating them would not only involve wanting them dead so badly that one contemplates the possibility to the point of fantasizing about killing them, but considering doing it.Maybe you, but not me.

I would rather they repent.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:48 AM
See this is what I dont get, there seems to be a ton of animosity here, people going back and forth over something that seems that it should be simple. Hate or dont hate. But all of you are christians right? But you all have different interpretations of the same book, if its all the same and if the holy spirt is in all of you, why are you all seemingly reading the same book but garnering different meanings from it. If its from the same god and all of you are saved by the same holy spirt, then why dont all of you agree?
Don't you just hate that?? :)

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:48 AM
The flesh is weak and the truth is not always the "easy road" therefore many if not most Christians give in to lies and cliches.

So, Knight if thats true, who decides whos really in, how does any one know for sure. All any christian has is a personal relationship with christ, the bible speaks on this and how no man knows another mans heart, and even out side of chritianity thats true.

So, if most christians give into lies and cliches, how do you know if your really following gods word, or the word of a man who figured out how to control people? Which is the true denomination? There are over 33.000 different forms of chrisitanity across the globe, how do you know, or any one for that matter, which one is the right one?

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:51 AM
It's rather obvious I think.
I've thought about sins effects on understanding the bible. I also think that if a person is living in a certain sin that it can warp their thinking so they miss other things. I just didn't make that connection in this case.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Don't you just hate that?? :)

I dont hate it at all, it really doesnt effect me all that much. Aside from my dealing with people here on TOL I generaly dont interact with christians on a regular.

What it does is raise more questions about christianity. Why are there some many forms of it if your all getting saved by the same holy spirit?

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 11:52 AM
See this is what I dont get, there seems to be a ton of animosity here, people going back and forth over something that seems that it should be simple. Hate or dont hate. But all of you are christians right? But you all have different interpretations of the same book, if its all the same and if the holy spirt is in all of you, why are you all seemingly reading the same book but garnering different meanings from it. If its from the same god and all of you are saved by the same holy spirt, then why dont all of you agree?I believe that a large part of what Jesus meant when He said that He didn't come to this earth to bring peace but a sword is just this type of thing, precisely. He wants us to bring these things up to one another and to non-Christians, as well. That's what makes TOL so great. We're discussing The Lord and His Spirit is here, now. He brings us together with His Word. He causes us to use our sword (our words) upon one another. Iron sharpens iron. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. We are giving one another the benefit of our knowledge and experience. We're showing what we're made of, and allowing others to help us form our character, by their viewpoint giving us better perspective on our own opinions. None of us is worth anything, but with God inside of us, we are invaluable. His Presence makes us more alive than we could ever be even if we were the wisest person who ever lived.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 11:53 AM
I dont hate it at all, it really doesnt effect me all that much. Aside from my dealing with people here on TOL I generaly dont interact with christians on a regular.

What it does is raise more questions about christianity. Why are there some many forms of it if your all getting saved by the same holy spirit?
I was joking because this is a thread about "hate".

but anyway, man is falliable. The Holy Spirit isn't responsible for people's mistakes. All over there are things where people have different viewpoints on the same topic.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 12:00 PM
I believe that a large part of what Jesus meant when He said that He didn't come to this earth to bring peace but a sword is just this type of thing, precisely. He wants us to bring these things up to one another and to non-Christians, as well. That's what makes TOL so great. We're discussing The Lord and His Spirit is here, now. He brings us together with His Word. He causes us to use our sword (our words) upon one another. Iron sharpens iron. Faithful are the wounds of a friend. We are giving one another the benefit of our knowledge and experience. We're showing what we're made of, and allowing others to help us form our character, by their viewpoint giving us better perspective on our own opinions. None of us is worth anything, but with God inside of us, we are invaluable. His Presence makes us more alive than we could ever be even if we were the wisest person who ever lived.

Hey and if it makes your life better, great, I've never told any one that their going to hell, but other consistantly tell me that. If you think that fighting amungst your self is the best way to learn then, hey, go for it, I'll sit back and watch.

All I want is for christians to be just slightly more open minded, by all means I'm not trying to get any one here to lose their faith, that is not my intention at all. All I want is to be able to make a point with out people resorting to name calling. It seems that when a non-christian makes a point that christians get stumped on, or angered by, they resort to anger and start the mud sliging. But hey, I'm a big boy, I can take it.

To cut to the meat of it, christians preach love thy neighbor, but, they are some of the first to resort to low blows. Make a point with out going for blood, it can be done.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 12:02 PM
I was joking because this is a thread about "hate".

but anyway, man is falliable. The Holy Spirit isn't responsible for people's mistakes. All over there are things where people have different viewpoints on the same topic.

I did get it, its just the way I respond to people and sarcasim.

And your right, man is falliable, and man compiled and wrote the bible, with human influences, and their own agendas in mind and in play.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:03 PM
There are over 33.000 different forms of chrisitanity across the globe, how do you know, or any one for that matter, which one is the right one?They are all wrong - to some extent.

Some are more wrong than others and can be shown so in objective ways.

It's up to you to use your own brain and seek the truth.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 12:06 PM
To cut to the meat of it, christians preach love thy neighbor, but, they are some of the first to resort to low blows. Make a point with out going for blood, it can be done.You make a valid point, you ****

No, just kidding. You are right, a lot of people who profess Christianity demonstrate some really poor character traits. I've changed since I've been on TOL, but could probably stand to do even more. I'm not perfect. We all need work. None of us is finished, or we'd already be at The Big Supper Table in The Sky. :eek:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:07 PM
You make a valid point, you **** :rotfl:

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 12:12 PM
They are all wrong - to some extent.

Some are more wrong than others and can be shown so in objective ways.

It's up to you to use your own brain and seek the truth.

So, let me try and understand what your saying, all of the 33, 000, forms of christianity are wrong to some extent, some more so then others. Why not just have it so that every one gets the same message and understands everything about it?

If god is god, and the holy spirit is god, then the holy spirit is capable of making the message perfect, or near perfect for us mortals. And if the second coming can only happen after the world is made gods foot stool, then wouldnt it stand to reason that god would just every one to get the same message and work together to make the world christian?

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 12:14 PM
You make a valid point, you ****



Why I... just kidding, but seriously folks.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:15 PM
So, let me try and understand what your saying, all of the 33, 000, forms of christianity are wrong to some extent, some more so then others. Why not just have it so that every one gets the same message and understands everything about it?

If god is god, and the holy spirit is god, then the holy spirit is capable of making the message perfect, or near perfect for us mortals. And if the second coming can only happen after the world is made gods foot stool, then wouldnt it stand to reason that god would just every one to get the same message and work together to make the world christian?It isn't like the essentials of the message are presented in 33,000 different ways.

Therefore your point is exaggerated and not accurate in this application.

Likewise...
There are millions of atheists and not a single two of them agree on everything therefore what?

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 12:28 PM
So, let me try and understand what your saying, all of the 33, 000, forms of christianity are wrong to some extent, some more so then others. Why not just have it so that every one gets the same message and understands everything about it? Where's the fun in that? He loves diversity. That's why He made so many different forms of it.
If god is god, and the holy spirit is god, then the holy spirit is capable of making the message perfect, or near perfect for us mortals. And if the second coming can only happen after the world is made gods foot stool, then wouldnt it stand to reason that god would just (want) every one to get the same message and work together to make the world christian?It is perfect, it is in our (mis) interpretation of It that the fault lies. If we understood the reason that He made His Word a Mystery, it wouldn't be a mystery anymore, would it? That will happen when time comes to an end:

And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

SOTK
October 13th, 2005, 12:35 PM
Hate (in and of itself) is morally neutral.

There are righteous forms of hatred and there are unrighteous forms of hatred.

Righteous hatred...
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Unrighteous hatred...
Leviticus 19:17 You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

I agree with this. :up: I used to fall into the "we have to love everyone camp" but this clearly is not Biblical. Yes, we can righteously hate somebody with perfect hatred. Terrorists come to mind.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:38 PM
Yes, we can righteously hate somebody with perfect hatred. Terrorists come to mind.BINGO! :up:

God_Is_Truth
October 13th, 2005, 12:39 PM
Love and hate are not equal opposites.

You should love your enemy enough to hate him. Then and only then might he repent.

the problem with this is that it's the kindness of God that leads people to repentence, not the hatred of God.

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:44 PM
the problem with this is that it's the kindness of God that leads people to repentence, not the hatred of God.

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?What wacky translation are you using?

Clearly you are misreading the context....

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

The verse is stating that God's goodness is what points men towards what is right and what is wrong. This verse has nothing to do with God acting "kind" towards wicked sinners.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 12:45 PM
GIT do yourself a favor and go buy a NKJV or KJV of God's word.

God_Is_Truth
October 13th, 2005, 12:51 PM
What wacky translation are you using?

New American Standard Bibe (NASB). nothing "wacky" about it.



Clearly you are misreading the context....

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

The verse is stating that God's goodness is what points men towards what is right and what is wrong. This verse has nothing to do with God acting "kind" towards wicked sinners.

nothing you've said here from the context gives me any reason to think it should be translated as "goodness" and not "kindness". the KJV and NKJV are not my favorite translations nor do i believe they are the most accurate. i find the NASB more credible, more literal and thus a better translation.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 12:55 PM
It isn't like the essentials of the message are presented in 33,000 different ways.

Therefore your point is exaggerated and not accurate in this application.

Likewise...
There are millions of atheists and not a single two of them agree on everything therefore what?

I'm not sure I agree with you on this but hey, I could be wrong, its a great big world, on the same coin, you might be wrong as well, who knows for sure.

As to your point of the athiests, your right, we dont all agree, but then again, we arent trying to convert the world.

Lets play war for a second Knight, personaly, I'm a stratagist, I love it, the days of Napolionic war, the battles fought in the War for Southern Independance, I love stratagies. I cant get enough of it.

You have your army, christianity, I have my force, athiesm. Now, the way christianity is now, fractioned and devided, they stand as christians yes, but discount very large groups of christians because their dogma is slightly different. JVW's, Mormans, Unitarians, the list goes on. Now I have my force, the athiests, all we have to agree on is that your wrong, no dogma, no deep theology, just that your wrong. While athiests my not agree on everything, we do agree that your wrong, we stand as a closer nit group, a tighter unit. And on the same token christians for the most part do stand united, but, can you really get a catholic and a protestant to sit down and discuss theology with out it going to yelling? Or a calvinist and an Arminian.

See my point, athiests dont need to agree on every thing, just that your wrong. Hope that I made that clear enough, if not let me know, I'll work on it some more.

SOTK
October 13th, 2005, 12:55 PM
GIT do yourself a favor and go buy a NKJV or KJV of God's word.

Those are my favorite! :up: It's weird but most at my church use the NIV. I wonder why? It's an "okay" translation but the NKJV seems more accurate to me.

CRASH
October 13th, 2005, 01:01 PM
the problem with this is that it's the kindness of God that leads people to repentence, not the hatred of God.

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

See Jude 20 - 23. (NKJV is what I use) There are different ways to reach people for Christ.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:01 PM
What wacky translation are you using?

Clearly you are misreading the context....

Romans 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

The verse is stating that God's goodness is what points men towards what is right and what is wrong. This verse has nothing to do with God acting "kind" towards wicked sinners.

See, this is what i'm talking about, you guys cant even agree on what bible to use.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:13 PM
See, this is what i'm talking about, you guys cant even agree on what bible to use.So what?

Do you agree with every Pagan?

And no, that question isn't rhetorical.

death2impiety
October 13th, 2005, 01:13 PM
The KJV is the best because it was the first time the book was translated into english (unless I'm mistaken). The verbage is closest to the way it was originally intended.

I read your Atheist agreeability argument but it seems silly because all us Christians agree on the one same point "atheists are wrong."

So what now Napolean?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:15 PM
athiests dont need to agree on every thing, just that your wrong. Hope that I made that clear enough, if not let me know, I'll work on it some more.I think your dogma just ran over your karma.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:19 PM
So what?

Do you agree with every Pagan?

And no, that question isn't rhetorical.

No, and I did point that out before that we all dont agree. My point is that its the devine word of your god, why wouldnt there be just one version, that every one can study? One text that every one can draw off of and get the same information. Why not? The Muslims have one book, the Jews have one book, the Mormans have their book, why not just have one translation?

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:22 PM
I think your dogma just ran over your karma.

Serious question, whats with the giant rat avatar? I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out. i'm not being sarcastic at all here, I just want to know whats up with the rat?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Serious question, whats with the giant rat avatar? I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out. i'm not being sarcastic at all here, I just want to know whats up with the rat?That's rat fink and rat fink likes halloween.

SOTK
October 13th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Serious question, whats with the giant rat avatar? I've been racking my brain trying to figure it out. i'm not being sarcastic at all here, I just want to know whats up with the rat?

I imagine it's part of a Halloween theme.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:27 PM
No, and I did point that out before that we all dont agree. My point is that its the devine word of your god, why wouldnt there be just one version, that every one can study? One text that every one can draw off of and get the same information. Why not? The Muslims have one book, the Jews have one book, the Mormans have their book, why not just have one translation?Uh dude... are you kidding?

You may not agree with me on things but you may want to know the facts a bit better.

There is only one Holy Bible.

The Koran and the Book of Mormon are not part of the Bible.

death2impiety
October 13th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Love the sinner hate the sin.

The only way to do this is to hate the sin a person lives in. You are effectively hating the person out of your love for him/her.

Love the sinner [by] hat[ing] [his/her willingness to live in] sin.

I'm curious how the "love is not hate" side of this argument thinks we should deal with murderers, rapists and the like. If we know our neighbor is a homosexual freak who seduces and eats 13 year old boys should we walk over with a freshly baked pie and discuss his sin? "Oh Jeffery, thats not right. Please stop eating the neighborhood children, my son has no one left to play with..."

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:28 PM
That's rat fink and rat fink likes halloween.

Cool, sorry to derail the topic a little bit, but I was just wondering. I can dig it.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:29 PM
Cool, sorry to derail the topic a little bit, but I was just wondering. I can dig it.Do a web search on Rat Fink and you will see he has a "hip" and extensive history.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Uh dude... are you kidding?

You may not agree with me on things but you may want to know the facts a bit better.

There is only one Holy Bible.

The Koran and the Book of Mormon are not part of the Bible.

I'm not sayng that they are. My point was that these religions that are comproble in size to christianity, and have similar pull, all have one book with one translation. And while there is one book with the name Holy Bible on it, you guys cant agree on which one should be used. You have some who say use NKJ, or NIV, or countless other versions. My point is this, why not just have one single translation of the book its self.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Do a web search on Rat Fink and you will see he has a "hip" and extensive history.

I'll do that when I get home. But seriously, it just kind of struck me as odd. But like I said, I can dig it. But then again, I'm a 20 year old guy who idolizes Superman, so, I dont think I'm one to talk about odd or weird.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:38 PM
I'm a 20 year old guy who idolizes Superman, so, I dont think I'm one to talk about odd or weird.Superman is gay.



;)

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 01:40 PM
I'm not sayng that they are. My point was that these religions that are comproble in size to christianity, and have similar pull, all have one book with one translation. And while there is one book with the name Holy Bible on it, you guys cant agree on which one should be used. You have some who say use NKJ, or NIV, or countless other versions. My point is this, why not just have one single translation of the book its self.
I also agree that the number of different translations is getting out of hand. I stick to about 3. My pastor will use several during a sermon and I don't like it. Usually he will at least quote several for each verse so it's not quite as bad, but still.

But I don't see how different translations mean that the HS isn't clear. Man has translated the bible different times for probably practical reasons, in that some are easier to read than others. They aren't doing it to change any meaning. Of course when changing words people can read the same verse in different translations and get 2 slightly different meanings, but the crux of the gospel is still there.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:41 PM
I'm not sayng that they are. My point was that these religions that are comproble in size to christianity, and have similar pull, all have one book with one translation. And while there is one book with the name Holy Bible on it, you guys cant agree on which one should be used. You have some who say use NKJ, or NIV, or countless other versions. My point is this, why not just have one single translation of the book its self.None of those other books have the historical, geographical, rational, logical, civil, moral accuracy that the Bible has, therefore we can objectively reject the other books and accept the one true holy book (the Bible).

Smart people (like yourself) will find this out if they investigate.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Superman is gay.



;)

And so is Rat Fink. I bet by avatar could beat up your avatar! :box:

But lets get back on topic. :readthis:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 01:42 PM
I also agree that the number of different translations is getting out of hand. I stick to about 3. My pastor will use several during a sermon and I don't like it. Usually he will at least quote several for each verse so it's not quite as bad, but still.

But I don't see how different translations mean that the HS isn't clear. Man has translated the bible different times for probably practical reasons, in that some are easier to read than others. They aren't doing it to change any meaning. Of course when changing words people can read the same verse in different translations and get 2 slightly different meanings, but the crux of the gospel is still there.I agree.

Said another way....

Even crappy bible translations can get people saved.

That being said... if you can buy a good translation... you should. :)

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:47 PM
None of those other books have the historical, geographical, rational, logical, civil, moral accuracy that the Bible has, therefore we can objectively reject the other books and accept the one true holy book (the Bible).

Smart people (like yourself) will find this out if they investigate.

I could agrue that with you Knight, but that is for a different thread, I have done my research and that was one of the reasons I left the faith. But like I said, an argument for another time.

Thats not what I'm calling into question either, all I want to know is why these other books have on translation, and christians have hundreds, if not thousands.

Did you know that Muslims believe that if you translate the Koran out of the original language it loses all meaning and is usless. In order to fully understand it you need to read it in the original form. I find that interesting.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 01:48 PM
I use KJV, NIV, and a bible where it has the original Hebrew(OT) and Greek(NT) on the left column and then a literal translation on the right column. It's very nice.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 01:51 PM
I could agrue that with you Knight, but that is for a different thread, I have done my research and that was one of the reasons I left the faith. But like I said, an argument for another time.

Thats not what I'm calling into question either, all I want to know is why these other books have on translation, and christians have hundreds, if not thousands.

Did you know that Muslims believe that if you translate the Koran out of the original language it loses all meaning and is usless. In order to fully understand it you need to read it in the original form. I find that interesting.
I also think that reading it in the original form, or as close as possible, is best. That's why versions like "The Message" annoy me, unless they are used along with a more direct version.

Muslims tend to take the Koran more seriously than Christians take the bible. That is why they will like kill you if you defile the Koran.

death2impiety
October 13th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Superman is gay.



;)

We agree again!






Batman rules

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Muslims tend to take the Koran more seriously than Christians take the bible. That is why they will like kill you if you defile the Koran.We take The Word of God very serious, indeed, because we would stake our lives on It's Truth, but a printed book is not our God, as is the case with Muslims. They don't know what they worship, or what they stumble over, since they're in darkness. We worship The Living God, Who is Spirit, not a book. Jesus is The Living Word, and He lives in us. We worship Emmanuel, God with us. We don't diefy a stack of paper, or even stone tablets. They are religious, we are free from that bondage. They are infidels, whose greatest enemy is the Jews and the Christians who know that the religion they have is from the devil, designed to make Judaism and Christianity appear demonic to the whole world.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 01:58 PM
I also think that reading it in the original form, or as close as possible, is best. That's why versions like "The Message" annoy me, unless they are used along with a more direct version.

Muslims tend to take the Koran more seriously than Christians take the bible. That is why they will like kill you if you defile the Koran.

Thats true, a good Muslim knows the Koran by heart, a good christian knows a few key bible verses.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Thats true, a good Muslim knows the Koran by heart, a good christian knows a few key bible verses.
Where do you get that from?

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 02:01 PM
We take The Word of God very serious, indeed, because we would stake our lives on It's Truth, but a printed book is not our God, as is the case with Muslims. They don't know what they worship, or what they stumble over, since they're in darkness. We worship The Living God, Who is Spirit, not a book. Jesus is The Living Word, and He lives in us. We worship Emmanuel, God with us. We don't diefy a stack of paper, or even stone tablets. They are religious, we are free from that bondage. They are infidels, whose greatest enemy is the Jews and the Christians who know that the religion they have is from the devil, designed to make Judaism and Christianity appear demonic to the whole world.
I agree, but they believe that if you defile that you are defiling the insprired word of Allah. A belief like that can be taken to extremes and can be full of a religious spirit, but I don't know if the belief in itself is that bad.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:03 PM
We take The Word of God very serious, indeed, because we would stake our lives on It's Truth, but a printed book is not our God, as is the case with Muslims. They don't know what they worship, or what they stumble over, since they're in darkness. We worship The Living God, Who is Spirit, not a book. Jesus is The Living Word, and He lives in us. We worship Emmanuel, God with us. We don't diefy a stack of paper, or even stone tablets. They are religious, we are free from that bondage. They are infidels, whose greatest enemy is the Jews and the Christians who know that the religion they have is from the devil, designed to make Judaism and Christianity appear demonic to the whole world.

I'm sorry dude, but I'm pretty sure any muslim would wholy disagree with you. They know exactly what their doing and seem to have their affairs in order. I'm not to sure if you grasp exactly what they believe, and to be quite frank neither do I, my understanding of it is limited, as is yours. They do believe that their god is the living word too, you dont have a tradmark on the word god, you know that right?

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:04 PM
Just think, if Mohammed had married better, we wouldn't have any Muslims. His wife convinced him that what he thought were demons speaking to him were actually angels, and he got the Koran from those demons.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Where do you get that from?

The fact that they start reading the Koran from the age of three and spend their formidable years reading every word of it over and over till they have it memorized. Hundreds, thousands of children from all over the muslim world, reading and memorizing the Koran every day, thats been going on for the past 1200 years. They have a pretty tough infastructure.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 02:07 PM
I'm sorry dude, but I'm pretty sure any muslim would wholy disagree with you. They know exactly what their doing and seem to have their affairs in order.Now I know for sure you must be smoking crack.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:08 PM
I'm sorry dude, but I'm pretty sure any muslim would wholy disagree with you. They know exactly what their doing and seem to have their affairs in order. I'm not to sure if you grasp exactly what they believe, and to be quite frank neither do I, my understanding of it is limited, as is yours. They do believe that their god is the living word too, you dont have a tradmark on the word god, you know that right?Sure they would, just like any blind person leading or being led into a ditch thinks they're going the right way, until they wake up the next day covered in mud trying to find a way out. I grasp exactly what they believe, and it is a false god. They can call their invented god The Lord if they want to, but it doesn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They're worshipping a false god, who has no son. They believe Jesus to be a lesser prophet, and Mohammed to be The Prophet.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:09 PM
Just think, if Mohammed had married better, we wouldn't have any Muslims. His wife convinced him that what he thought were demons speaking to him were actually angels, and he got the Koran from those demons.

Okay, if you were to look at half of the stories of insperation in the bible from a modern perspective, you would think these guys were tripping on acid. I mean, Revelation, come on, half the stuff in there sounds like a bad trip. The fact of the mater is, non of us were there, so we dont know for sure, all we have to go on is history influenced through the times that they lived in.

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 02:11 PM
The fact that they start reading the Koran from the age of three and spend their formidable years reading every word of it over and over till they have it memorized. Hundreds, thousands of children from all over the muslim world, reading and memorizing the Koran every day, thats been going on for the past 1200 years. They have a pretty tough infastructure.
I'd say they would know it pretty well then. That seems like a pretty religious thing to do, but I don't think it's a bad thing. It'd be nice to have more scripture memorized. Again, it seems Muslims take their religion more seriously than most others.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:11 PM
If, indeed, their god, Allah, existed, and they followed His Word, then they might (if they were religious enough) have their affairs in order. Since he doesn't exist, and Jesus' Father, The Lord Almighty, does, and He said that faith in Him will save us and give us eternal life, they've missed the boat. They call Jesus a liar, because Jesus said that He is The Son of God. They say that their god has no son. Someone is lying. I don't think that liars have any place in Heaven. All liars shall have their place in hell.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Sure they would, just like any blind person leading or being led into a ditch thinks they're going the right way, until they wake up the next day covered in mud trying to find a way out. I grasp exactly what they believe, and it is a false god. They can call their invented god The Lord if they want to, but it doesn't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They're worshipping a false god, who has no son. They believe Jesus to be a lesser prophet, and Mohammed to be The Prophet.

Thats exactly what they would say to you. To you their god is false, to them your god is false, and I think your both wrong. All I want you to grasp is the fact that they think the same thing about you. They just seem slightly more devoted in, how to say it, making the world muslim.

Johnny
October 13th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Me: "How many sinners did Jesus hate to drive them towards Himself?"

Knight's response....drum roll please


Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 “For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 “and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’Pathetic. First, that's not Jesus hating. Second, that's not even us hating (cue Knight bringing up "unless you hate your..."). Third, worst response ever. Fourth, it's obvious that you only answer parts of posts you have a prepackaged response for.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:15 PM
I'd say they would know it pretty well then. That seems like a pretty religious thing to do, but I don't think it's a bad thing. It'd be nice to have more scripture memorized. Again, it seems Muslims take their religion more seriously than most others.

Finaly, some one who sees the point I'm trying to make.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Okay, if you were to look at half of the stories of insperation in the bible from a modern perspective, you would think these guys were tripping on acid. I mean, Revelation, come on, half the stuff in there sounds like a bad trip. The fact of the mater is, non of us were there, so we dont know for sure, all we have to go on is history influenced through the times that they lived in.It isn't by reading God's Word looking for flaws that you will find The Lord. You have to seek Him with your whole heart to find Him. Looking for flaws, all that you will ever find are flaws. We have something that is better than any eyewitness account, we have The Holy Spirit, Who testifies to us that these things are faithful and true. What you have to go on is only sinking sand. You're trying to take someone's hand out of The Hand of The Almighty, and He doesn't want to let go, and we don't want to let go. How silly is that? :rotfl:

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Me: "How many sinners did Jesus hate to drive them towards Himself?"

Knight's response....drum roll please

Pathetic. First, that's not Jesus hating. Second, that's not even us hating (cue Knight bringing up "unless you hate your..."). Third, worst response ever. Fourth, it's obvious that you only answer parts of posts you have a prepackaged response for.

That verse is actualy very close to a Gnostic verse, and I paraphrase: "But I have come and thrown a flame on the world and lo I am watching it burn." That was Jesus from one of the Gnostic text. Might have been from the Book of Thomas, not sure.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Thats exactly what they would say to you.They do, and quite often. It's like water on a duck's back. It's like trying to put a slave back into chains, after he's been released and told, "The law now says you're free." It's just not going to happen.
To you their god is false, to them your god is false, and I think your both wrong.What you think doesn't really matter in the face of reality.
All I want you to grasp is the fact that they think the same thing about you.Big news, eh? :ha:
They just seem slightly more devoted in, how to say it, making the world muslim.Well, if you'll remember, Catholics once tried to bring the world to their knees with the sword, wearing the cross on their uniforms. Didn't work. The devil, I believe, will bring the Koran to the world, and force it upon everyone on this earth. Those who reject it will be put to death. That's what I believe.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Did you mean to say, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:23 PM
It isn't by reading God's Word looking for flaws that you will find The Lord. You have to seek Him with your whole heart to find Him. Looking for flaws, all that you will ever find are flaws. We have something that is better than any eyewitness account, we have The Holy Spirit, Who testifies to us that these things are faithful and true. What you have to go on is only sinking sand. You're trying to take someone's hand out of The Hand of The Almighty, and He doesn't want to let go, and we don't want to let go. How silly is that? :rotfl:

I'm not trying to change any ones mind, by all means I am not. I didnt look for the flaws, I stumbled on them. You say I'm working on sinking sand, I'm only going off of history, what can be proven for a fact, I dont like to argue theology, well, I do, but I like to talk about history, what can be proven and seen with my own eyes, what I can touch and verify with my own eyes. I spent my whole life taking peoples word for it, then personaly I found out they were wrong, and now I spend my time looking for tangable proofs. You have faith, the belief in something that cant be seen or isnt there, I have facts.

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:31 PM
They do, and quite often. It's like water on a duck's back. It's like trying to put a slave back into chains, after he's been released and told, "The law now says you're free." It's just not going to happen.What you think doesn't really matter in the face of reality.Big news, eh? :ha:Well, if you'll remember, Catholics once tried to bring the world to their knees with the sword, wearing the cross on their uniforms. Didn't work. The devil, I believe, will bring the Koran to the world, and force it upon everyone on this earth. Those who reject it will be put to death. That's what I believe.

If I'm not mistaken the christians did bring the world to their knees and millions paid the price for it, back then it was just the one church so I referr to them as christians, they did control much of the world, it was because of the muslim invasion into the holy land that broke their hold.

But I really dont see the point in going back and forth with you, your not going to give any ground and for some reason, I'm arguing about something I really dont give two... well lets just say I really dont care.

What was this thread about again?

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Did you mean to say, "I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?"

No, this was something different. Close though.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:44 PM
I'm not trying to change any ones mind, by all means I am not. I didnt look for the flaws, I stumbled on them.As I said, you're stumbling is taking place because you walk in darkness.
You say I'm working on sinking sand, I'm only going off of history, what can be proven for a fact, I dont like to argue theology, well, I do, but I like to talk about history, what can be proven and seen with my own eyes, what I can touch and verify with my own eyes.Then you'll never learn anything about ancient history, until you take The Bible seriously. It's the only historic record of Eden, and many millenia shortly thereafter. Not one historic fact stated in it has ever been proven to be in error. It is the most accurate hisoric record we have of ancient history.
I spent my whole life taking peoples word for it, then personaly I found out they were wrong, and now I spend my time looking for tangable proofs.I'm curious where you think Christians are 'wrong.'
You have faith, the belief in something that cant be seen or isnt there, I have facts.Yes, I do have faith, but not in anything that can't be seen. The Lord is plainly evidnet, denying that takes severe blindness.
If I'm not mistaken the christians did bring the world to their knees and millions paid the price for it, back then it was just the one church so I referr to them as christians, they did control much of the world, it was because of the muslim invasion into the holy land that broke their hold. That same plan is being re-worked, and the Muslims will follow the false god all the way to hell.
What was this thread about again?Avatars and how queer Superman looks.

Aimiel
October 13th, 2005, 02:45 PM
"I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes." -- from the Nag Hammadi?

koban
October 13th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Avatars and how queer Superman looks.



Has Lighthouse been here again? :chuckle:

TobiasKage
October 13th, 2005, 02:57 PM
As I said, you're stumbling is taking place because you walk in darkness.Then you'll never learn anything about ancient history, until you take The Bible seriously. It's the only historic record of Eden, and many millenia shortly thereafter. Not one historic fact stated in it has ever been proven to be in error. It is the most accurate hisoric record we have of ancient history.I'm curious where you think Christians are 'wrong.'Yes, I do have faith, but not in anything that can't be seen. The Lord is plainly evidnet, denying that takes severe blindness.That same plan is being re-worked, and the Muslims will follow the false god all the way to hell.Avatars and how queer Superman looks.

Okay lets do this again. You say that the bible is the most accurate record of the ancient world? I dont see how you can say that when the Egyptians dont even have a record of the Jews ever even being in Egypt. There is no Egyptian record of the exodus, nothing, not one mention of the plauges in the Egyptian histroical account, those people wrote down every thing, dont you think they would note if thousands of slaves suddenly got up, took all of their stuff and left the country in ruin? After every first born had died mind you. Not one record from them.

Christian scholars and Jewish scholars have been going over the desert for over 70 years looking for evidence of the exodus, they cant find any, the Jews were suposidly wandering around an area alittle bigger then Texas for 40 years, they would have left something behind, but we find nothing.

There is no out side record of Solomin's existance, a king that had the most wealth, the most influence and the most knowledge and we have nothing to conferm he even existed. He traded with every nation on earth and no one but the bible has a record of him existing. Not the Ethiopians, no one. Dont you think if he was as powerful as the bible said he was there would be a little more to go on?

Come to think of it, there is one refernce to the Isrealites out side of the bible, its from the Asyrians, after the Jews had been released back into Isreal from captivity. But before that, nothing, the world is silent of them. Its been historicly proven that the Philistiens werent even there till after the captivity.

So, how about you go read some real history books, ones that tell a real account of the area and its history.

God_Is_Truth
October 13th, 2005, 03:04 PM
See Jude 20 - 23. (NKJV is what I use) There are different ways to reach people for Christ.

Jude
20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,

21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

22And have mercy on some, who are doubting;

23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.


even though it speaks about differences, it doesn't mention at all that we should hate anyone. it says we should hate even the garment which is polluted by the flesh, but it does not say to hate the person. this almost sounds like "hate the sin, not the sinner", doesn't it? hmm.....

God_Is_Truth
October 13th, 2005, 03:07 PM
The KJV is the best because it was the first time the book was translated into english (unless I'm mistaken). The verbage is closest to the way it was originally intended.

i disagree. this would only be true if we had the original manuscripts. but since we don't, the more we have the stronger our likelihood of getting it right is. and we now have older and more plentiful manuscripts than when the KJV was written. that is why i prefer tranlsations like the NASB that make use of the additional manuscripts over the KJV which has fewer.

God_Is_Truth
October 13th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Love the sinner hate the sin.

The only way to do this is to hate the sin a person lives in. You are effectively hating the person out of your love for him/her.

how so?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Third, worst response ever.:rotfl:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Hey Johnny why don't you get in your time machine and go find another dimension to annoy.

bling
October 13th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Knight said:
Righteous hatred...
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.
This could apply only to the Old Testament when the Jews were called upon by God to go out and physically kill everyone. This is a Godly type hate that we can not show or maybe have today?? Do you have a New Testament concept of hate to quote?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:21 PM
This could apply only to the Old Testament when the Jews were called upon by God to go out and physically kill everyone. This is a Godly type hate that we can not show or maybe have today?? Do you have a New Testament concept of hate to quote?For the ninth time.....

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Abhor literally means "hate".

kmoney
October 13th, 2005, 04:21 PM
This could apply only to the Old Testament when the Jews were called upon by God to go out and physically kill everyone. This is a Godly type hate that we can not show or maybe have today?? Do you have a New Testament concept of hate to quote?
Rom 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:23 PM
Arn't you a homo?

I identify myself as a person. A person who needs the saving grace and forgiving power that Jesus Christ has. I have attractions to members of the same sex, which I cannot help nor did I choose. However, I do not claim to be acting upon any feelings I may have, because I am not. I have no intention of doing so.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:29 PM
I have attractions to members of the same sex,Gross! :vomit:

Dude, it's almost dinner time!

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:31 PM
I identify myself as a person. A person who needs the saving grace and forgiving power that Jesus Christ has. I have attractions to members of the same sex, which I cannot help nor did I choose. However, I do not claim to be acting upon any feelings I may have, because I am not. I have no intention of doing so.You could be part of the solution... instead your part of the problem.

You could wake up feeling clean... instead you are dirty and unclean.

You could trade in your embarrassment for a joyous lifestyle.

You could do all this.... if you wanted to.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:36 PM
You could be part of the solution... instead your part of the problem.

You could wake up feeling clean... instead you are dirty and unclean.

You could trade in your embarrassment for a joyous lifestyle.

You could do all this.... if you wanted to.

In what way am I part of the problem?

I do know what it is like to wake up feeling clean.

I am not embarassed in any way.

My number one goal:
To get as close to God as I can. To feel him all the time, in the good and the bad. To put Him number ONE in my life, not anywhere else.

However, that is a rather hard goal to achieve. That is not to say I'm not trying though.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Gross! :vomit:

Dude, it's almost dinner time!

How many times do I have to say this? I did not choose how I feel. If I had the choice, I would have chosen to have attractions for women, and women only. I AM not acting upon my feelings.

It's 11.30pm here... so I forgot it is dinner time where you are :chuckle:

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:40 PM
In what way am I part of the problem?You advocate tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle.


I do know what it is like to wake up feeling clean.You can still remember eh?


I am not embarrassed in any way.Yes you are.


My number one goal:
To get as close to God as I can. To feel him all the time, in the good and the bad. To put Him number ONE in my life, not anywhere else.If that is true you need to repent from your sinful thoughts and denounce them and ask God to help you abhor wickedness.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:46 PM
How many times do I have to say this? I did not choose how I feel. If I had the choice, I would have chosen to have attractions for women, and women only. I AM not acting upon my feelings.

It's 11.30pm here... so I forgot it is dinner time where you are :chuckle:The first step to recovery is saying the truth....

Type the following words and then say them outloud to yourself...

Lord I know homosexuality is sinful and wicked. Lord I know that advocating homosexuality is no different than homosexuality and I am sorry I have fallen into this wicked, wicked lifestyle.

Lord, even though I am confused and have feelings I cannot control help me to condemn the homosexual lifestyle publicly so that I can begin to heal my tortured soul.

Lord I repent from the homosexual lifestyle.

Lord, help me to pick up the pieces and start new help me to be open to the brothers and sisters on TOL who are brave enough to confront me and rebuke me so that I could see that I am lost.

From this point further I will work to help others escape the wickedness of homosexuality.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:48 PM
You advocate tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle.

You can still remember eh?

Yes you are.

If that is true you need to repent from your sinful thoughts and denounce them and ask God to help you abhor wickedness.

I advocate not hating homosexuals. I also advocate not giving homosexuals the death penalty, and not re-criminilising it. I also do not believe that homosexual attraction is a choice.

I can still remember waking up and feeling clean.

I am still not embarassed. I don't know what makes you say that.

Repent? I repent every day, for all sins I may have comitted, whether known by me, or even if I have commited a sin that I have not realised I have commited.

I was brought up in a Christian family. Both of my parents are born again, and have always been to Churches with well-respected leaders. They currently go to the Salvation Army. Their Captain, Dawn, is a lovely lady, recently married, and has recently had a child. So, a good family woman.

However, her, and every other Christian that I have ever met who are associated with my parents, not one of them believes that it is OK to hate a person.

Abhoring what is evil is different from hating a person. As one of the people my mum worked with on a Christian project recently said:

'It is good to hate what is evil. However, for anyone who believes that the Bible tells us to hate a person: My God never tells me to hate a person.'

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:50 PM
The first step to recovery is saying the truth....

Type the following words and then say them outload to yourself...

Lord I know homosexuality is sinful and wicked. Lord I know that advocating homosexuality is no different than homosexuality and I am sorry I have fallen into this wicked, wicked lifestyle.

Lord, even though I am confused and have feelings I cannot control help me to condemn the homosexual lifestyle publicly so that I can begin to heal my tortured soul.

Lord I repent from the homosexual lifestyle.

Lord, help me to pick up the pieces and start new help me to be open to the brothers and sisters on TOL who are brave enough to confront me and rebuke me so that I could see that I am lost.

From this point further I will work to help others escape the wickedness of homosexuality.

Lord I know homosexuality is sinful and wicked. Lord I know that advocating homosexuality is no different than homosexuality and I am sorry I have fallen into this wicked, wicked lifestyle.

Lord, even though I am confused and have feelings I cannot control help me to condemn the homosexual lifestyle publicly so that I can begin to heal my tortured soul.

Lord I repent from the homosexual lifestyle.

Lord, help me to pick up the pieces and start new help me to be open to the brothers and sisters on TOL who are brave enough to confront me and rebuke me so that I could see that I am lost.

From this point further I will work to help others escape the wickedness of homosexuality.

Amen.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Lord I know homosexuality is sinful and wicked. Lord I know that advocating homosexuality is no different than homosexuality and I am sorry I have fallen into this wicked, wicked lifestyle.

Lord, even though I am confused and have feelings I cannot control help me to condemn the homosexual lifestyle publicly so that I can begin to heal my tortured soul.

Lord I repent from the homosexual lifestyle.

Lord, help me to pick up the pieces and start new help me to be open to the brothers and sisters on TOL who are brave enough to confront me and rebuke me so that I could see that I am lost.

From this point further I will work to help others escape the wickedness of homosexuality.

Amen.There ya go, the first step is always the hardest step.

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 04:58 PM
There ya go, the first step is always the hardest step.

True enough. And I did say that out loud as well.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 05:00 PM
True enough. And I did say that out loud as well.Awesome! So are you committed to helping denounce homosexuality?

Join us (the ones brave enough not to love you to hell) is helping spread the truth!

Are you ready?

lovemeorhateme
October 13th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Awesome! So are you committed to helping denounce homosexuality?

Join us (the ones brave enough not to love you to hell) is helping spread the truth!

Are you ready?

Right.

I am committed to doing anything that the Lord wants me to, even if that means denouncing homosexuality. I need to seek the Lord. I am gonna spend quite a while in prayer tonight. Please can I ask you, and anyone else who reads this, please remember me in your prayers.

I am ready.

Pete

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Right.

I am committed to doing anything that the Lord wants me to, even if that means denouncing homosexuality. I need to seek the Lord. I am gonna spend quite a while in prayer tonight. Please can I ask you, and anyone else who reads this, please remember me in your prayers.

I am ready.

PeteI am with ya 100%

But remember... doing what is right isn't easy.

It's like body building.... when you quit trying you quickly turn back into flab. The world pulls against us like gravity, unrelenting and intolerant. We must focus on God and His word, we must love Him always and He will live through us.

But before all that, I am not convinced you are a Christian.

When you say you always repent and ask for forgiveness that tells me you have never actually accepted God's gift of grace.

Would you like to become a Christian?

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 05:27 PM
You are *this close to changing your eternity. (*my fingers are pinched close together).

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 05:41 PM
With a *pure heart you need to confess with your mouth that...

You admit that you are a sinner.

You admit that you cannot save yourself and that you do indeed need a saviour.

You need to accept the work that Christ did on the cross for you and accept that there is nothing you can add to this work. No daily repentance or asking for forgiveness will be necessary from this point forward.

You need to admit that Christ died for you on the cross and that He was raised on the third day as you will be raised.

You need to humble yourself before the creator God and to nothing else... not me, not your parents, not your pastor but God Himself. You need to acknowledge that you need Him and that His word is true!

Place yourself at His mercy and you will receive what you ask. If you do all this God will enter your heart for ever more and you will be sealed with the Holy Spirit and He will help you come out of your wicked lifestyle.

Are you ready to change your eternity?

* Simply mouthing the above words without actually wanting the consequences would be asking for something without a pure heart and your hollow words would be in vein.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Mr. 5020
October 13th, 2005, 06:14 PM
This thread has turned into something awesome.

LMOHM is in my prayers, right now.

LiveForChrist
October 13th, 2005, 06:26 PM
As I am writing I am praying for Pete, Jesus can do amazing things if you let him.

philosophizer
October 13th, 2005, 07:18 PM
Praying for LMOHM tonight. Praying for an open heart.

Knight
October 13th, 2005, 08:36 PM
Praying for LMOHM tonight. Praying for an open heart.Me too.

I also pray he has a pure heart.

SOTK
October 13th, 2005, 11:54 PM
Right.

I am committed to doing anything that the Lord wants me to, even if that means denouncing homosexuality. I need to seek the Lord. I am gonna spend quite a while in prayer tonight. Please can I ask you, and anyone else who reads this, please remember me in your prayers.

I am ready.

Pete

:thumb:

Count me in!

Zimfan
October 13th, 2005, 11:57 PM
:thumb:

Count me in!

Me, too. :up:

koban
October 14th, 2005, 02:07 AM
Outstanding!

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 06:10 AM
So, how about you go read some real history books, ones that tell a real account of the area and its history.I have and I do, and, as I said, not one historical fact from The Bible has ever been dis-proven. I didn't say that there was ample archeological evidence which proves every fact, I said nothing has been discounted, due to contrary evidence. For as much time and geographical area that covers that's a better track record than any other historical record of the era and the only historical record for quite a large 'clump' of time. :readthis:

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 06:16 AM
Me, too. :up:Myself as well. I'm prayin' for ya'. I'm also sure that any Christian that reads this thread is. I believe we see LMOHM turn towards God, instead of away from Him. Thank God. Praying...

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 06:38 AM
I have and I do, and, as I said, not one historical fact from The Bible has ever been dis-proven. I didn't say that there was ample archeological evidence which proves every fact, I said nothing has been discounted, due to contrary evidence. For as much time and geographical area that covers that's a better track record than any other historical record of the era and the only historical record for quite a large 'clump' of time. :readthis:

We, and by we I mean the histroical community, have proven that the OT wasnt writen until after the release from Aysria, thats when the two priesthoods from Isreal became one and El, and YWHA, became one god, until then they were seperate beings from two different priesthoods, one from Arron and the other from Moses.

I'll tell you what has been troublesom for both christians and Jews, there being no evidence that David existed in the historical record, nothing has been found to support he ever even existed. And if he did, it is much more likely he was a small tribel war lord and not this great king. There is nothing in the histroical record to support his existance. And that is a fact. And think Aimiel, what does that mean if David never existed?

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 06:39 AM
LMOHM, you do what you feel is right for your self.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 07:00 AM
And think Aimiel, what does that mean if David never existed?Well, Jesus would have to sit on the floor, because where He sits is called, "The Throne of David." He is The Root and Offspring of David. He created Adam and Eve. He gave Abraham the faith to take Him at His Word. He is also (by virtue of being born of Mary) the 'offspring' of David. As I said, not having proof of something stated in The Bible isn't the same as having proof that the stated something is a lie. I only said that nothing in The Bible has ever been dis-proven. That includes historically, scientifically and spiritually. That is because it isn't the 'invention' of men, or even of a culture; It is The Word of God. Have you ever even read It?

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 07:14 AM
Well, Jesus would have to sit on the floor, because where He sits is called, "The Throne of David." He is The Root and Offspring of David. He created Adam and Eve. He gave Abraham the faith to take Him at His Word. He is also (by virtue of being born of Mary) the 'offspring' of David. As I said, not having proof of something stated in The Bible isn't the same as having proof that the stated something is a lie. I only said that nothing in The Bible has ever been dis-proven. That includes historically, scientifically and spiritually. That is because it isn't the 'invention' of men, or even of a culture; It is The Word of God. Have you ever even read It?

Yeah I've read it Aimiel, have you ever studied the world history? The fact that the bible says that David and Solomin were such great kings and had so much land and power and influence, and now that only a few thousand years later we can find little to no evidence of it what so ever is fairly shocking isnt? There was the city on the hill, the great temple of Solomin, which by the way, cant even be proven to have existed until after the Asyrians returned the Jews to Isreal, and that was to mainly set up a buffer state between them and the Egyptians.

You see the Asyrians and the Egyptians were mortal enimeies, and thats why through the OT the Egyptians were made out to be the bad guys, because the Isrealites were coming out of captivity of Asyria when the OT was writen. The Aysrians influenced if not ordered the writing of the OT, so it would be ingrained in the culture of the Jews to hate the Egyptians, a hate that continues to this day mind you.

After they returned, the Asyrians ordered the "rebuilding" of the temple where the law was convieniantly found, and the people rent their clothes because they had never heard it and they were in transgression of the law. What is more probable, the Aysrians sent them back to build a temple and set of a buffer state, with convieniently found laws, where the priests would rule, or through some work of a mirical, the law is found in the ruins of a temple after generations had passed.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 07:37 AM
Fascinating stuff, really. I see exactly why the evidence has been 'erased' in the things that the Philistines are doing today in Jerusalem. Not the least bit surprising. The Muslims don't want anything relating to the Jews to exist, neither living or in artifacts. They find Christianity even more revolting. To them God only had one prophet: Mohammed. They'll go to any length to steal evidence out of the ground before it is even discovered, and destroy it before anyone can make any record of it. Suppression of Truth will never stop. Seems to be what you're in the habit of trying to do, as well. You'll regret it, one day. I only pray it is before you die, when your chances to repent have come to an end.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 07:49 AM
Fascinating stuff, really. I see exactly why the evidence has been 'erased' in the things that the Philistines are doing today in Jerusalem. Not the least bit surprising. The Muslims don't want anything relating to the Jews to exist, neither living or in artifacts. They find Christianity even more revolting. To them God only had one prophet: Mohammed. They'll go to any length to steal evidence out of the ground before it is even discovered, and destroy it before anyone can make any record of it. Suppression of Truth will never stop. Seems to be what you're in the habit of trying to do, as well. You'll regret it, one day. I only pray it is before you die, when your chances to repent have come to an end.

Aimiel, I have no clue what your talking about. The evidence was erased, it was never there. First off, the Muslims wouldnt have destroyed historical records, the Muslim scholars keep and catolog every thing, Islamic libraries are some of the most detailed and have the most information regarding the ancient world, so saying that they were the ones who erased the record is just rediculious.

The only records we have of history being destroyed and libaries being burned, are that of the early christians destroying every thing they came across that contridicted their religion.

And besides, right now we arent talking about Muslims, we are talking about the lack of any evidence that anything in the OT even happened. So, try sticking to the topic. And dont ever acuse me of trying to surpress the truth, christians are famous for hiding the truth, and keeping the massess in the dark, remember the "dark ages" Aimiel? Think about it, the reason that the church says we're in this whole mess is because Adam wanted knowledge that had been forbiden to him. Knowledge is the greatest forbiden fruit, the fruit that tastes better then any other, the tree that given knowledge, and man was cursed for wanted to know what came next.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Aimiel, I have no clue what your talking about.That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. :cool:
The evidence was erased, it was never there.Do realize how silly that sounds?
First off, the Muslims wouldnt have destroyed historical records, the Muslim scholars keep and catolog every thing, Islamic libraries are some of the most detailed and have the most information regarding the ancient world, so saying that they were the ones who erased the record is just rediculious. The Muslims have no such 'track record.' If anything, they've been shown to be the biggest liars to walk the earth.
And besides, right now we arent talking about Muslims, we are talking about the lack of any evidence that anything in the OT even happened.I merely hoped that you'd understand and see the correllation that exists between the evidence the Muslims are destroying and the work their ancestors did, as well as their ancestors, the Philistines.
So, try sticking to the topic. I did. You just don't see the correllation, since you're walking in darkness, and can't comprehend Truth.
And dont ever acuse me of trying to surpress the truth, christians are famous for hiding the truth, and keeping the massess in the dark, remember the "dark ages" Aimiel?Hey, if the shoe fits, you'll have to wear it. The 'dark ages' weren't caused by Christians, Catholics aren't Christian, they're a cult. Same as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Just because psychos claim to be doing something in The Name of God doesn't make them Christian, or David Koresh is a great prophet.
Think about it, the reason that the church says we're in this whole mess is because Adam wanted knowledge that had been forbiden to him. Knowledge is the greatest forbiden fruit, the fruit that tastes better then any other, the tree that given knowledge, and man was cursed for wanted to know what came next.Now who's straying from the topic? You're whacked. :kookoo:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 08:13 AM
That's exactly what I've been trying to tell you. :cool:Do realize how silly that sounds?The Muslims have no such 'track record.' If anything, they've been shown to be the biggest liars to walk the earth.I merely hoped that you'd understand and see the correllation that exists between the evidence the Muslims are destroying and the work their ancestors did, as well as their ancestors, the Philistines.I did. You just don't see the correllation, since you're walking in darkness, and can't comprehend Truth.Hey, if the shoe fits, you'll have to wear it. The 'dark ages' weren't caused by Christians, Catholics aren't Christian, they're a cult. Same as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Just because psychos claim to be doing something in The Name of God doesn't make them Christian, or David Koresh is a great prophet.Now who's straying from the topic? You're whacked. :kookoo:

Aimiel, I'm not even going to try and talk to you. You refuse to listen to reason and are content to just sit there and stick your fingers in your ears and hum. You have no clue about the Muslim libraries, you havent studied it, I have. First of all the Philisteins are not the ancestors of the Muslims, you can thank Abraham for them, they came from his line. And the Philisteins werent even in Isreal till after the Aysrian captivity, that can be proven historicaly. Its easy to say some one is walking in darkness when you have your eyes closed. And you cant say that the dark ages wasnt caused by christians, back then it was only one church, and then there was the split, so, they were all christians, dont cop out on that one. So here is a question then, where were all of the real christians durring all of this? There was only one church at the time, they all worshiped Jesus and God, why werent they christian? Because their history makes you look bad.

Try reading what I write in stead of just glossing over it.

bling
October 14th, 2005, 08:19 AM
Knight said:

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

Abhor literally means "hate".

Have you heard hate the sin and love the sinner?
Do you really feel this verse is talking about individuals?
The original question was hating someone and not just hating. We can hate Satan.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 08:31 AM
First of all the Philisteins are not the ancestors of the Muslims, you can thank Abraham for them, they came from his line.I know who they are, better than you do.
And you cant say that the dark ages wasnt caused by christians, back then it was only one church, and then there was the split, so, they were all christians, dont cop out on that one.Why not? It's the same as the Mustang being built on the Pinto chassis. During those years, as any Mustang purist will tell you, there was no Mustang. They simply don't consider a Pinto a Mustang, no matter how much you bend the fenders into 'Mustang shape.'
So here is a question then, where were all of the real christians durring all of this?Quietly praying someone as well-educated as Martin Luther would get up the nerve to post the truth on the door of the enemy, as I'm trying to do to you.
There was only one church at the time, they all worshiped Jesus and God, why werent they christian?Same reason they aren't today, they practice idolatry, pervert The Word of God and pray to dead people who are still dead.
Try reading what I write in stead of just glossing over it.You haven't shown me anything yet, and I do read your posts. You apparently don't understand mine, so I guess I'll have to 'dumb' them down for you. :duh:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 08:41 AM
I know who they are, better than you do. Why not? It's the same as the Mustang being built on the Pinto chassis. During those years, as any Mustang purist will tell you, there was no Mustang. They simply don't consider a Pinto a Mustang, no matter how much you bend the fenders into 'Mustang shape.'Quietly praying someone as well-educated as Martin Luther would get up the nerve to post the truth on the door of the enemy, as I'm trying to do to you.Same reason they aren't today, they practice idolatry, pervert The Word of God and pray to dead people who are still dead. You haven't shown me anything yet, and I do read your posts. You apparently don't understand mine, so I guess I'll have to 'dumb' them down for you. :duh:

Im sure you do know them Aim, right on. So if you know them so well, why say that the Muslims came from the Philistiens? You and I both know that they came from the line of Abraham.

Hey, as much as I love to talk cars, and its a fairly imaginitive compairison, the Pinto and the Mustang, your just going farther and farther out ther Aim, and like I said, I'm not going to try and get through to you any more. You dont want to listen and you dont want to think.

The good christians were sitting around praying, convinient for them.

As far as not having shown you anything? It can be historicly proven that David, didnt exist, that Solomin, didnt exist, that the nation of Isreal isnt mentioned in world history out side of the bible until after the Asyrians set up the city state of Isreal. So, with out the house of David, you have no Jesus, and with out Jesus, you have no christianity and all you have is a group of people who took advantage of losely writen myths and legends.

Crow
October 14th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Have you heard hate the sin and love the sinner?

I sure have, and I'm still looking for that verse in my Bible.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Im sure you do know them Aim, right on. So if you know them so well, why say that the Muslims came from the Philistiens? You and I both know that they came from the line of Abraham. The Muslims are the 'descendants' of the Philistines, in that they have taken up their cause, to destroy Israel. No, Muslims didn't come from the line of Abraham, they merely claim to. The physical descendants of Ishmael or of Esau are not, necessarily Muslims. They are a great nation, nonetheless, as God prophecied. Those proclaiming the Muslim religion aren't, for the most part, any relatives of either Ishmael or Esau.
Hey, as much as I love to talk cars, and its a fairly imaginitive compairison, the Pinto and the Mustang, your just going farther and farther out ther Aim, and like I said, I'm not going to try and get through to you any more. You dont want to listen and you dont want to think.If you don't understand, I can explain it further, if you like.
The good christians were sitting around praying, convinient for them. Why would dedicating one's free time to the welfare of others, their progeny and theirs, etc., ad infinitum, be 'convenient'? They inconvenienced themselves, and their faith, which comes from The Lord, produced Martin Luther, and eventually put The Word of God into the hands of anyone who wants one, in a free country. Of course, that doesn't include the Muslim countries, which (according to you) don't suppress truth.
As far as not having shown you anything? It can be historicly proven that David, didnt exist,Then why haven't you (or anyone else on this earth for that matter) done so?
... that Solomin, didnt exist,Again, you haven't proven that, either.
... that the nation of Isreal isnt mentioned in world history out side of the bible until after the Asyrians set up the city state of Isreal.That doesn't dis-prove a thing. You're presuming, again.
So, with out the house of David, you have no Jesus, and with out Jesus, you have no christianity and all you have is a group of people who took advantage of losely writen myths and legends.So, to you, there are no Christians, right? Well, if'n we had ham, we could have ham-n-eggs, if'n we had eggs. That makes more sense than you do.

CRASH
October 14th, 2005, 08:59 AM
I sure have, and I'm still looking for that verse in my Bible.

You'll need at least an eternity to find it since it is not there!:crackup:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 09:08 AM
The Muslims are the 'descendants' of the Philistines, in that they have taken up their cause, to destroy Israel. No, Muslims didn't come from the line of Abraham, they merely claim to. The physical descendants of Ishmael or of Esau are not, necessarily Muslims. They are a great nation, nonetheless, as God prophecied. Those proclaiming the Muslim religion aren't, for the most part, any relatives of either Ishmael or Esau. If you don't understand, I can explain it further, if you like.Why would dedicating one's free time to the welfare of others, their progeny and theirs, etc., ad infinitum, be 'convenient'? They inconvenienced themselves, and their faith, which comes from The Lord, produced Martin Luther, and eventually put The Word of God into the hands of anyone who wants one, in a free country. Of course, that doesn't include the Muslim countries, which (according to you) don't suppress truth.Then why haven't you (or anyone else on this earth for that matter) done so?Again, you haven't proven that, either.That doesn't dis-prove a thing. You're presuming, again.So, to you, there are no Christians, right? Well, if'n we had ham, we could have ham-n-eggs, if'n we had eggs. That makes more sense than you do.

Aim, I've made my points and frankly dont feel like bashing my head against a wall any more. You make wild acusations and assumtions, you say that the Muslims are decendants of the Philistiens and then say that well of corse they really arent I just was saying they are because of... seriously dude, your making yourself look foolish. And those from Esau and Ishmael have closer ties then the Philistiens so, if you know this so well, why say it. Here is a fun fact for you, did you know up intill the christian occuptaion of Jerusalem Muslims and Jews lived and worked together in peace and relitive harmony? It wasnt untill the christians came in that they drove spike of animosity between the Jews and their Musilm nieghbors, and that hate continues to this day. But hey, you already knew that. Your rant on the "christians" really, makes no sense. But once again, no David, no Jesus, read what the scholars coming out of the desert say about their finds to support the idea that Solomin existed, or David, think out side the box Aimiel, if you can.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 09:14 AM
But once again, no David, no Jesus, read what the scholars coming out of the desert say about their finds to support the idea that Solomin existed, or David, think out side the box Aimiel, if you can.Why do you keep repeating the same garbage all day long? Not finding any physical evidence isn't proof of a historic fact in The Bible to be in error. Why do you keep believing that it is? :dizzy:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 09:20 AM
Why do you keep repeating the same garbage all day long? Not finding any physical evidence isn't proof of a historic fact in The Bible to be in error. Why do you keep believing that it is? :dizzy:

Why wouldnt it be? In a court of law with no evidence you cant put a man in jail. In a court of law with out a blood sample you cant prove who the father of a child is. With out proof, you cant claim something to be true. The bible says you need two witnessess to prove something is true or to convict some one of something. There is no evidence in the sand that David was there. Its just a story, a story that was perpetuated with myth and a myth that was taken literaly to keep a kingdom from falling apart. So say its not important that there is evidence, my friend, your very belief system is on the line, with out Jesus, you have nothing, if you cant go back and prove the line of kings, there is nothing, you will be standing on sand, and we all know about sand down we.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 09:31 AM
Why wouldnt it be?Because it isn't. In spite of the fact that you claim to have a brain, we haven't seen any evidence of it. We doubt its existence, because you haven't shown it to us. We want to see it.

As I said, nothing in The Bible has ever been disproven, historically, scientifically or spiritually. If you don't understand that, then OK, you don't. But there it is.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 09:43 AM
Because it isn't. In spite of the fact that you claim to have a brain, we haven't seen any evidence of it. We doubt its existence, because you haven't shown it to us. We want to see it.

As I said, nothing in The Bible has ever been disproven, historically, scientifically or spiritually. If you don't understand that, then OK, you don't. But there it is.

So let me get this strait:

The major lack of any physical evidence showing the existance of a histroical David from both christian archeolgist and jewish. And they would have a little more incentive to find this stuff then the christians, with out it, they have no real claims to the holy land.

The void of any, any mention of David or Solomin in any other historical record across the world. Solomin alone should be mentioned some where, he traded with countries all over the world, but no one has any record of him, any where.

The lack of Egyptian evidence of the exodus, they have no records of it any where. And you would think that thousands and thousands of slaves that built the pyramids and their infastructure, just got up in the middle of the night and took off, you would assume that they would keep a record of their army be swollowed by the sea at least. But nothing, in their ancient record is there, nothing. Why is there is a mention of a group of slaves being driven out, but they were called the Hyksos, my spelling may be off, not the Jews. There is no evidence the Jews were even in Egypt.

All of this evidence, from both Jews and Christian scholars, and you still dont listen. What more do you want? Trust me there is a lot more out there, a lot.

bling
October 14th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Matt:5 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you,

If we are to love our enemies who does that leave to hate, besides Satan?
Jesus is tell us here there is a change in the rule concerning loving and hating, does He not?

Romans 12:9
[ Love ] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. NIV

We are told here to hate what is evil, not (hate those, who are evil)

Romans 7:15
I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. NIV

I find very few New Testament verses about us hating anything, but from the ones I have found it is not revering to people but acts and practices. Here Paul talks about actions he is doing.

Revelation 2:6
But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Here again we are to hate the practices, but it does not say hate the people (Nicolaitans).

Christ died for us while we were His enemies, for those evil people at the foot of the cross mocking Him, how should we behave?

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 10:10 AM
There is no evidence the Jews were even in Egypt.{Jim Carey voice}Oh, reeeeealy?{/Jim Carey voice}

Then what do you make of this?


Topic: Archeology & Exodus from Egypt
(Questions posted on website, answered by Rabbi Ohr Somayach)

As I said in the beginning, there is overwhelming historical evidence, archeological and otherwise, for the Exodus. For one, we have an unbroken historical record of these events. Our record is both a written record, recorded in our Torah, and an oral record passed on by word of mouth from parents to their children (like we do the night of Passover). See our "Historical Verification of the Torah (http://ohr.edu/ask/ask158.htm#Q1)"

I'll mention here just one piece of archeological evidence, the Ipuwer papyrus. Found in the early 19th Century in Egypt, this document describes events which parallel remarkably events described in the Book of Exodus: Violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves with the wealth of the Egyptians, and death throughout the land. See it on our website at: http://www.ohr.edu/special/pesach/ipuwer.htm

Finally, let me suggest a few books that bring extensive archaeological evidence for the Exodus: The best book on the subject is Israel in Egypt by James Hoffmeier. See also Biblical Personalities and Archaeology by Leah Bronner and Permission to Receive by Leib Keleman.

-- from: Rabbi Ohr Somayach
http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/285/Q1/

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Christ died for us while we were His enemies, for those evil people at the foot of the cross mocking Him, how should we behave?We're supposed to do the works that He did, and He also said that we would do 'greater' works than He did. I don't think we can accomplish that by ignoring His admonitions and going backwards into The Old Testament to follow what we 'think' He meant.

lovemeorhateme
October 14th, 2005, 10:18 AM
OK. I am going to say this out loud, as I type it, so you can all see this.

Lord, I come to you a sinner. I ask you now for forgiveness. Please forgive me Jesus. I realise that you love me so much that you died on a Cross to save me from my sins. I repent of everything I have done, and, with your help, I promise to change my life - forever. I accept you into my heart right now as my Saviour.

Amen.

God_Is_Truth
October 14th, 2005, 10:51 AM
You'll need at least an eternity to find it since it is not there!:crackup:

kinda like the word "trinity" ;)

death2impiety
October 14th, 2005, 10:55 AM
kinda like the word "trinity" ;)

oh snap!

dRock
October 14th, 2005, 10:57 AM
well...in response to the initial question on this thread, I say no. However, I say that Christians should hate other people's sin (such as Homosexuality and their opposing religious views). well...

Servo
October 14th, 2005, 11:07 AM
OK. I am going to say this out loud, as I type it, so you can all see this.

Lord, I come to you a sinner. I ask you now for forgiveness. Please forgive me Jesus. I realise that you love me so much that you died on a Cross to save me from my sins. I repent of everything I have done, and, with your help, I promise to change my life - forever. I accept you into my heart right now as my Saviour.

Amen.

:up:

Wow! I just became aware of this. I will be praying for you LMOHM!

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Hey Aimiel check this out:

the 'Admonitions of Ipuwer' has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme "order versus chaos."
M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I, p.150

Yeah, point, counter point.

lovemeorhateme
October 14th, 2005, 11:09 AM
:up:

Wow! I just became aware of this. I will be praying for you LMOHM!

Thank you to you and everyone who is praying for me. I need it right now. I am pretty sure I am gonna have a lot of struggles ahead, as we all do. With His help, I will overcome them.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Aimiel

Ipuwer papyrus
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The Ipuwer papyrus is an ancient Egyptian papyrus document, dating (as shown convincingly by Jon Van Seters) to the Second Intermediate Period, at the time of the Hyksos Invasion. The theme of this work is generally taken to be either a lament inspired by the chaos of this period, or as historical fiction depicting the fall of the Old Kingdom several centuries earlier; perhaps it is a bit of both.

Ipuwer describes Egypt as afflicted by natural disasters and in a state of social collapse, with slaves gaining their freedom and flaunting it. Because of this and such statements as "the River is blood," a few fringe scholars have believed the document to be an Egyptian account of the Plagues of Egypt and the Exodus in the Old Testament of the Bible. Slaves are described as acting rebelliously, leaving their servitude, and wearing their masters' jewelry. This association with the Exodus is generally rejected by scholars.

The official name of this document is Leiden Papyrus #344, after the Dutch museum where it currently resides.

Here is some more.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Aimiel what else you got?

Servo
October 14th, 2005, 11:17 AM
Thank you to you and everyone who is praying for me. I need it right now. I am pretty sure I am gonna have a lot of struggles ahead, as we all do. With His help, I will overcome them.

Accepting Christ puts us under grace and therefore frees us from the law. Being a Christian gives us the strength to overcome sin!

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

lovemeorhateme
October 14th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Accepting Christ puts us under grace and therefore frees us from the law. Being a Christian gives us the strength to overcome sin!

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

Romans 5:20
The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

Thank you :thumb:

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 12:13 PM
There is nothing you can point to which detracts from the historical authenticity of The Word of God, because It is true.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 12:19 PM
There is nothing you can point to which detracts from the historical authenticity of The Word of God, because It is true.

Nice come back Aimiel.

Didnt I say earlier that I wanted to be done with this because you werent going to listen any way? I hope those posts put an end to this Aimiel. I'm sick of :bang: pounding my head against the wall with you. Thanks for the papyrus reference by the way.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 12:25 PM
It's not intended as a comeback. As I said, my premise stands, historically there is no document in antiquity which is more accurate, and no evidence whatsoever to dispute a single stated fact or axiom in The Word of God.

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 12:32 PM
It's not intended as a comeback. As I said, my premise stands, historically there is no document in antiquity which is more accurate, and no evidence whatsoever to dispute a single stated fact or axiom in The Word of God.

And you say I'm blind. Have you not read a single thing I have posted. I even debunked your little papyrus. I dont get you Aimiel, read books, read history, read ancient texts out side of the bible and seek knowledge. Dont be kept in a box your whole life, think. Please.

CRASH
October 14th, 2005, 01:02 PM
kinda like the word "trinity" ;)

Except that you will find the concept of the trinity throughout the Word.:D

God_Is_Truth
October 14th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Except that you will find the concept of the trinity throughout the Word.:D

did you miss my post earlier? i think the concept can be found biblically.

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 01:33 PM
I dont get you Aimiel...Maybe if I type reallly slowly you'll understand. Not finding any archaeological evidence to support every single stated fact in The Bible isn't the same as finding any which disproves any. There is no evidence, emperical or otherwise, which disproves a single recorded historic, scientific fact or spiritual axiom given in The Word of God. How many times do I have to say the same thing before you realize that what you're doing (assuming that a lack of physical evidence of someone's existance proves that they never existed) has nothing to do with my stated premise, underlined above? :duh:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 01:44 PM
Maybe if I type reallly slowly you'll understand. Not finding any archaeological evidence to support every single stated fact in The Bible isn't the same as finding any which disproves any. There is no evidence, emperical or otherwise, which disproves a single recorded historic, scientific fact or spiritual axiom given in The Word of God. How many times do I have to say the same thing before you realize that what you're doing (assuming that a lack of physical evidence of someone's existance proves that they never existed) has nothing to do with my stated premise, underlined above? :duh:

My question Aimiel is why wouldnt it be there? Why wouldnt we find bountiful evidence of them? If its all true why not find evidence of its existance? Would god want there to be physical evidence to prove to the unbelievers that this is true? Why the void of anything to substanciate it until after the Jews came out of Asyria?

Jujubee
October 14th, 2005, 01:47 PM
you are to love your neighbors and you enemies...not hate them

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 01:56 PM
My question Aimiel is why wouldnt it be there? I believe that it is. I believe there is overwhelming evidence, and one of the greatest is the statement of scientific truth. A doctor, one day, ran across the instructions in The Bible regarding washing of hands, and when he applied that to doctors delivering babies, the reduction in the rate of women dying from childbirth in their hospital caused hospitals all over the world to adopt the same procedures. There are many other things which point to The Word being Truth, but it depends on your 'slant.' As I've said, you're looking at The Word of Truth for flaws, so you find them. I see Truth which contains none. :sheep:

TobiasKage
October 14th, 2005, 02:06 PM
I believe that it is. I believe there is overwhelming evidence, and one of the greatest is the statement of scientific truth. A doctor, one day, ran across the instructions in The Bible regarding washing of hands, and when he applied that to doctors delivering babies, the reduction in the rate of women dying from childbirth in their hospital caused hospitals all over the world to adopt the same procedures. There are many other things which point to The Word being Truth, but it depends on your 'slant.' As I've said, you're looking at The Word of Truth for flaws, so you find them. I see Truth which contains none. :sheep:

The bible also talks about the men of Isreal throwing babie off wall onto rocks, and slaying pregnant women, should that be taken into accout as well? I'm not saying that every thing in the bible is bad, the psalms have alot of good life lessons in them, regardless of who they were writen by, the proverbs also have some good stuff in them, again regardless of who they are writen by. What I'm saying is that when you hear commin sense, you can recognize it. What about all of the scientific recomendations by Greek and Roman scholars that took medicin to new hights. Does that make them right too?

JoyfulRook
October 14th, 2005, 03:14 PM
OK. I am going to say this out loud, as I type it, so you can all see this.

Lord, I come to you a sinner. I ask you now for forgiveness. Please forgive me Jesus. I realise that you love me so much that you died on a Cross to save me from my sins. I repent of everything I have done, and, with your help, I promise to change my life - forever. I accept you into my heart right now as my Saviour.

Amen. Wow. :thumb:

Emo
October 14th, 2005, 04:14 PM
OK. I am going to say this out loud, as I type it, so you can all see this.

Lord, I come to you a sinner. I ask you now for forgiveness. Please forgive me Jesus. I realise that you love me so much that you died on a Cross to save me from my sins. I repent of everything I have done, and, with your help, I promise to change my life - forever. I accept you into my heart right now as my Saviour.

Amen.

Outstanding! I will pray for you.

Phil. 3


12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

SOTK
October 14th, 2005, 04:46 PM
OK. I am going to say this out loud, as I type it, so you can all see this.

Lord, I come to you a sinner. I ask you now for forgiveness. Please forgive me Jesus. I realise that you love me so much that you died on a Cross to save me from my sins. I repent of everything I have done, and, with your help, I promise to change my life - forever. I accept you into my heart right now as my Saviour.

Amen.


:bannana:

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 05:36 PM
The bible also talks about the men of Isreal throwing babie off wall onto rocks, and slaying pregnant women, should that be taken into accout as well?It is a part of their history. It happened. I don't think that someone would make up stories like that about their own people. Most people making such records, if they do embellish, do just the opposite. That's one of the things that makes the New Testament more believeable, they wrote about their own shortcomings, freely.
I'm not saying that every thing in the bible is bad, the psalms have alot of good life lessons in them, regardless of who they were writen by, the proverbs also have some good stuff in them, again regardless of who they are writen by.If you simply pick-and-choose from The Word of God what you 'think' applies to you, and discount whatever you choose to, you short-change yourself, because God put in His Word the things that He wants to get across to you. He also said, "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. People who think of The Bible as literature and not as a roadmap to lead us to The Lord don't realize that they're steering straight towards hell.
What I'm saying is that when you hear commin sense, you can recognize it.Funny how common sense is so un-common, though.
What about all of the scientific recomendations by Greek and Roman scholars that took medicin to new hights. Does that make them right too?You mean like the theory of the Four Humors, earth, air, fire and water, and that those cause illnesses. Man, you don't know much about modern science or medicine, do you? Do you have computers where you live, or do you type on TOL from a teletype machine?

Aimiel
October 14th, 2005, 05:44 PM
Outstanding! I will pray for you.

Phil. 3


12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Emo,

We're all praying for LMoHM.

Hey, when I hear anyone point out that verse (Phillipians 3:13) I always have to point out that punctuation hadn't been invented when The Bible was written. If you read that verse without any:

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended but this one thing I do forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before

,,, it becomes clear that he meant that he counts himself to have apprehended the 'forgetting' and the 'reaching.'

OK, that's all I have. I'm gonna' get down off my soapbox now.

billwald
October 14th, 2005, 06:19 PM
>scientific fact

Like Jesus saying that seeds die before they sprout?

temple2006
October 14th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Hey Crash,
Do you remember that thread you started in the early 2000s, entitled IS IT EVER OK TO 'ILL SOMEONE? I can't remember the outcome, but I can't forget the title...(as if you had to ask).
This present title seems so reminesent of the first one, it is scary.

Aimiel
October 15th, 2005, 09:59 AM
>scientific fact

Like Jesus saying that seeds die before they sprout?Let's see, was Jesus talking to farmers about how to raise a crop, or was He speaking to open-minded people who might understand the meaning of what He meant 'behind' the parable He spoke, because He didn't speak to us in The Gospels without speaking in parables. His meaning is that if we do as the wheat seed, that is, count our lives as nothing, sacrifice ourselves willingly, we will become the plant that He wants us to. Our lives must be laid to rest in the ground, dead, in order for Him to raise us up as new 'plants' in His Father's Kingdom. Capiche?

CRASH
October 16th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Hey Crash,
Do you remember that thread you started in the early 2000s, entitled IS IT EVER OK TO 'ILL SOMEONE? I can't remember the outcome, but I can't forget the title...(as if you had to ask).
This present title seems so reminesent of the first one, it is scary.

Yes Temple and I remember you well! It may scare you but hey look at the fruit! I am pryaing for LMOHM!

temple2006
October 16th, 2005, 04:49 PM
Crash...Why are you praying for LMorHM?

God_Is_Truth
October 16th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Crash...Why are you praying for LMorHM?

read the past few pages of the thread, or read the thread "overcoming homosexuality"

ItIsWritten
October 16th, 2005, 09:17 PM
Some said yes and some said no. What say you?
Surely, if one asks the wrong question, then they cannot expect that they will get the right answer.

(What say YOU? -- May I point out that this seems to be a call for man's wisdom and for those seeking truth, I'd suggest the following as a starting point.)

The right question regarding any Biblical issue (i.e. "ok for a Christian") is "What saith the scriptures"?

Jujubee
October 16th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Today's Quote

When the heart grieves over what it has lost, the spirit rejoices over what it has left

stunrut
October 17th, 2005, 07:06 AM
We should not hate but who's perfect? Is it Ok to hate? No. Can we be forgiven? Yes.

That clears it all up for me.

Turbo
October 17th, 2005, 08:14 AM
We should not hate but who's perfect? Ironic choice of words. Did you see this passage, which has been quoted several times on this thread?

Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Psalms 139:21-22
What do you make of it? How do you reconcile your belief that it is never right to hate with this passage (and others like it)?

stunrut
October 17th, 2005, 08:24 AM
Ironic choice of words. Did you see this passage, which has been quoted several times on this thread?

Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies. Psalms 139:21-22
What do you make of it? How do you reconcile your belief that it is never right to hate with this passage (and others like it)?

This looks like a question to me not a statement. This passage is not God telling us that it is ok to hate.

I repeat that we are not perfect. It is not our place to judge others so on what basis should we hate them?

CRASH
October 17th, 2005, 08:37 AM
Surely, if one asks the wrong question, then they cannot expect that they will get the right answer.

(What say YOU? -- May I point out that this seems to be a call for man's wisdom and for those seeking truth, I'd suggest the following as a starting point.)

The right question regarding any Biblical issue (i.e. "ok for a Christian") is "What saith the scriptures"?

True but I would guess every Christian here knew that the standerd would be God and his Word!

JoyfulRook
October 17th, 2005, 08:38 AM
This passage is not God telling us that it is ok to hate. Then what is it telling us?

It is not our place to judge others so on what basis should we hate them?
Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

So don't judge like a hypocrite. Do you not know that we will judge the angels?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

stunrut
October 17th, 2005, 08:54 AM
Then what is it telling us?

Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, `Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."

So don't judge like a hypocrite. Do you not know that we will judge the angels?

1 Corinthians 6:2-3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

It was a question posed to God.

It was also about hating non-christians.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
It isn't our job to judge outsiders. But it certainly is our job to judge and deal strongly with those who are members of the church, and who are sinning in these ways.
God alone is the Judge of those on the outside. But you yourselves must deal with this man and put him outside of your church.

David2
October 17th, 2005, 09:28 AM
listen up all you guys i won't even read any posts,
you love your neighbour as yourself,
jesus reiterated this from the words of Moses.
having said that, he had no respect of men, did he hate the jew leaders and levites, calling them liars , vipers and so ?
did it contracict to his own expression of saying 'raca' to his brother.
no
why
becausefirst of all to call a liar a liar is not a sin, now we have adjectives in our modern day language that get bleeted out. do you not hink they had adjectives back then to . Just like in french the f word is noit a bad of cuss word, doesn't work the same as the f word and it's releasing kind of feeling.
but o to call some one f idiot does not by a ticket to hell either, it doesn't break God's laws, it's just part of the vulgarity of the common language today. The word swearing in the bible is not cussing but to promise.

judging is for the saints, saints are meant to live together in harmony the 1- commandments are for those in the promised land to abide by ie new jerusalem, ie the song of Moses rev 14 amd 15 :3.
There is sin going on the heathen world and currently you are living in it and are committed to it whetheryou know it or not. therefore look not upon the neighbours blemish b/c you have one to and it's blocking your view.
all born into sin rasied in sin cultures.
therefore only by me Jesus says that one can attain to God, This same principal applies to the new jerusalem that is lite up 24/7 for it is like a candle on a hill that all can see. and you cannot enter therin unless you go by the son.
So first thing first acceptance of jesus who was the son sacrificed and the unblemished body adn the vow to walk after him , thqt implies follow in his life.
You must know to be free from sin implies to follow Jesus , that is how you cannot 'hate' anyone, when in faith and doing according to His Words, all you sins are like scarlet and washed clean in God's site, but you must be unot god and God only.

now why does God continue to repeat and Jesus repeats, That God has promised and will fulfill His promise.

Because he hates you or loves you?
So when you are in difficulty , is it by accident, or are you being pulled?
Now this is not to be taken fanatically, for i have met some who flipped their biscuit when they realize that God is with them at all times.

You are hear for a reason, many of you hear want to be heard , i can tell by all the subjects being posted.
First hear God, then you will be heard. Block God , and he will block you .
hear Him when He says " keep my Word, laws", or He won't hear you when you pray, why should He pay attention unless you listen to Him.


The Bible is clear on this point "IF" you change your ways _____operating word ___IF___.
That is the entire bottom line , you want God's attention hear Him and cooperate.

Even Jesus said when his mother called him " those are not my family, but these here who do the Will of My Father, " so, he didn't hear her. _______ he did but what was his point. YOU MUST STOP SIN.

How easy it is to forget the basic 101 princiopals for loving God.
Everything else outside of love, that is doing His will, His way following His Word, is doing HATE to your brother.

did you hear that?

now go about yor business and stop all sin.

First you must know the Laws of God before you can stop them.

herein is your ignorance, b/c your phd pulpit preachers are not even teaching the laws of God.

So i say again go to REv ch 2 and 3 and understand in which or if in many churches you are living right now
go

i say "hear and stop playing games, b/c you have attachments to your sin ( hate) ways, in Gods name."

your eternal friend and confidant,
in God's name i pray
DAvid2

koban
October 17th, 2005, 09:58 AM
listen up all you guys i won't even read any posts

DAvid2



That's all I need to see. :dizzy:

Aimiel
October 17th, 2005, 10:28 AM
listen up all you guys i won't even read any posts...OK, us too.

Turbo
October 17th, 2005, 10:57 AM
listen up all you guys i won't even read any posts,
But you want us to read your rants? No thanks.

TOL is for dialogue. This is not the David2 soapbox.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 01:08 PM
so, back to the original topic.

are there any other verses supporting the idea of hating others besides Psalms 139:21-22 and Romans 12:9 ?

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 01:24 PM
so, back to the original topic.

are there any other verses supporting the idea of hating others besides Psalms 139:21-22 and Romans 12:9 ?Is there a number limit of verses you have in mind that would be acceptable to you? :)

Personally I think one is enough.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 01:47 PM
Is there a number limit of verses you have in mind that would be acceptable to you? :)

Personally I think one is enough.

i'm very skeptical of "one verse doctrines" to be honest. also, there are at least 3 verses that say to love your enemies. so, just by verse count, that would hold the upper hand.

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 01:53 PM
i'm very skeptical of "one verse doctrines" to be honest. also, there are at least 3 verses that say to love your enemies. so, just by verse count, that would hold the upper hand.We should love our enemies! Who ever said anything otherwise?

Again... hate and love are not equal opposites.

I love my enemies enough to righteously hate them the way God demands so that they have the chance to repent.

stunrut
October 17th, 2005, 02:57 PM
We should love our enemies! Who ever said anything otherwise?

Again... hate and love are not equal opposites.

I love my enemies enough to righteously hate them the way God demands so that they have the chance to repent.


You crack me up! :LoJo:

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:13 PM
You crack me up! :LoJo:I am guessing you haven't read this entire thread.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:15 PM
We should love our enemies! Who ever said anything otherwise?

Again... hate and love are not equal opposites.

I love my enemies enough to righteously hate them the way God demands so that they have the chance to repent.

i honestly don't understand that one bit.

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:17 PM
i honestly don't understand that one bit.Let me make it more confusing for you....

It is unrighteously hateful to NOT righteously hate the wicked.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:20 PM
to further the "confusion", Jesus seems to directly go against the Psalm in the NT

Matthew 5
43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,


he says they "have heard" which seems to be a reference to the Psalm you quoted. but then he goes on to say "But i say to you", which seems to me like it's a change, something different. Jesus is saying that while it was said before (by David?) to hate their enemies, Jesus now says they are to love their eneimies. he seems to almost be pointing out something David got wrong.

what do you think?

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 03:20 PM
We should love our enemies! Who ever said anything otherwise?

Again... hate and love are not equal opposites.

I love my enemies enough to righteously hate them the way God demands so that they have the chance to repent.So we should love them and hate them simultaneously. This would probably be easier to understand if you gave an example. Can you think of any?

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Let me make it more confusing for you....

It is unrighteously hateful to NOT righteously hate the wicked.

:dizzy:

perhaps after you respond to my Jesus quote i'll understand better.