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Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:23 PM
So we should love them and hate them simultaneously. This would probably be easier to understand if you gave an example. Can you think of any?In practical terms how should we as individuals and as a society treat a man who rapes and murders one of our own children?

Should we love them through acceptance and tolerance? Or should we love them through rebuking them and putting them to death?

One of the above options will send them to hell for sure, the other option might bring them to repentance.

stunrut
October 17th, 2005, 03:24 PM
:aikido:

This is your brain on TheologyOnline...

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM
:dizzy:

perhaps after you respond to my Jesus quote i'll understand better.You still think love and hate are opposite therefore you are misunderstanding everything that is being said in this thread.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:26 PM
You still think love and hate are opposite therefore you are misunderstanding everything that is being said in this thread.

why should i think they are not? doesn't the matthew example suggest that they are opposites?

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:32 PM
why should i think they are not? doesn't the matthew example suggest that they are opposites?No, not at all!

Again, I affirm... we should love our enemies!

Now, in practical terms we need to figure how to love our enemies in a godly and effective way.

Think about this verse for a second....

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

How can we abhor our enemy of a neighbor yet still love him as Jesus commanded?

It's pretty simply really once we figure out that hate is morally neutral - in that hate can be a bad thing or a good thing.

Leviticus 19:17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

Get it?

ItIsWritten
October 17th, 2005, 03:32 PM
For those who believe a Christian should try and be like/emuluate/reflect God...

consider Psalm 5:5 which says, "thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 03:33 PM
For those who believe a Christian should try and be like/emuluate/reflect God...

consider Psalm 5:5 which says, "thou hatest all workers of iniquity."I guess that makes three GIT, now what? :D

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:41 PM
No, not at all!

Again, I affirm... we should love our enemies!

well that's good



Now, in practical terms we need to figure how to love our enemies in a godly and effective way.

Think about this verse for a second....

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

How can we abhor our enemy of a neighbor yet still love him as Jesus commanded?

people are not evil. they just do evil things. i think you are therefore misusing Romans 12:9.



It's pretty simply really once we figure out that hate is morally neutral - in that hate can be a bad thing or a good thing.

i do not believe all hate is bad. i think we should hate evil things and unrighteousness and such. but i do not see grounds for hating other people. that has not yet (in my view) been established.



Leviticus 19:17 ‘You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him.

Get it?

i don't get how that verse helps establish that hatred towards individuals is acceptable and ok, no.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 03:49 PM
I guess that makes three GIT, now what? :D

oh i'm sure i can find a few more :D

Galatians 6:10
So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

good to "all people". how is hating someone good?


1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.

never "evil for evil", but "good for another" and for "all people". how could that possibly include hate?


Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

here Paul calls being "hateful" foolish, and thus part of the flesh.


Deuteronomy 19
11"But if there is a man who hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him and rises up against him and strikes him so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities,

12then the elders of his city shall send and take him from there and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.


this passage suggests passively that hate is not good towards individuals as well. we see that the hate towards his neighbor (good samaritan anyone?) led the man to kill him which was obviously wrong. we see no indication that the hate part of the man was ok and righteous.

would you like me to continue?

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:11 PM
oh i'm sure i can find a few more :D

Galatians 6:10
So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith.

good to "all people". how is hating someone good?It gives them a chance to repent. Read this thread and see for yourself or ask lovemeorhateme and see what he says. :)



1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.Being evil would be bad. We all agree.


never "evil for evil", but "good for another" and for "all people". how could that possibly include hate?It can be good to hate (as the Bible states so clearly yet you reject).



Titus 3:3
For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

here Paul calls being "hateful" foolish, and thus part of the flesh.Unrighteous hate is bad, we all agree.



Deuteronomy 19
11"But if there is a man who hates his neighbor and lies in wait for him and rises up against him and strikes him so that he dies, and he flees to one of these cities,

12then the elders of his city shall send and take him from there and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die.


this passage suggests passively that hate is not good towards individuals as well. we see that the hate towards his neighbor (good samaritan anyone?) led the man to kill him which was obviously wrong. we see no indication that the hate part of the man was ok and righteous.

would you like me to continue?Another excellent example of unrighteous hate.

Until you see that hate is morally neutral you will forver be confused about such verses.

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Knight, can you respond to this point by GIT? I'm asking out of sincere curiosity.

people are not evil. they just do evil things. i think you are therefore misusing Romans 12:9.

ItIsWritten
October 17th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Big Kahuna, please translate into newbie-speak:

GIT
?

Thank you.

kmoney
October 17th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Big Kahuna, please translate into newbie-speak:

?

Thank you.
GIT = God_is_Truth

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:22 PM
Knight, can you respond to this point by GIT? I'm asking out of sincere curiosity.Well people are obviously evil so I don't think the point is built a worthy premiss do you?

ItIsWritten
October 17th, 2005, 04:22 PM
GIT = God_is_Truth
Sorry. I was slow on the uptake there.

Thank you.

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:23 PM
God doesn't seperate the sin from the sinner.

What is sent to hell? The sin or the sinner? :think:

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:25 PM
We all agree God is good no?

So could we agree that a good God wouldn't do something that is not good?

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 04:25 PM
God doesn't seperate the sin from the sinner.

What is sent to hell? The sin or the sinner? :think:Right, but when He sends them to hell, He does not call them evil, He calls them workers of evil [iniquity].

Matthew 7:22-23 KJV
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Right, but when He sends them to hell, He does not call them evil, He calls them workers of evil [iniquity].

Matthew 7:22-23 KJV
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.So?

Evil isn't a being unto itself so of course it would take a being to act out evil. That being said God says we are what we are....

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Therefore if a man thinks evil a man is evil.

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 04:39 PM
So?

Evil isn't a being unto itself so of course it would take a being to act out evil. That being said God says we are what we are....

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Therefore if a man thinks evil a man is evil.Good point. :up:

I guess...I don't know. What is the definition of righteous hate? I mean, how do I act towards them? Am I nice? Polite? Rude? In a perpetual state of rebuking?

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Good point. :up:

I guess...I don't know. What is the definition of righteous hate? I mean, how do I act towards them? Am I nice? Polite? Rude? In a perpetual state of rebuking?2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

It all depends on the circumstances right?

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 04:43 PM
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

It all depends on the circumstances right?I don't know. It's all so new to me.

Knight
October 17th, 2005, 04:46 PM
I don't know. It's all so new to me.I think it's really intuitive, yet we complicate it ourselves by not understanding that hate is morally neutral.

Mr. 5020
October 17th, 2005, 04:50 PM
I think it's really intuitive, yet we complicate it ourselves by not understanding that hate is morally neutral.I guess I'm scared because I don't want to be like a certain preacher from Kansas* that also preaches that hate is morally neutral.

*http://www.godhatesamerica.com

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 05:32 PM
It gives them a chance to repent. Read this thread and see for yourself or ask lovemeorhateme and see what he says. :)

well, like i said before, i think it's the kindness of God that leads to repentence. hating is certainly different from kindness.



Being evil would be bad. We all agree.

It can be good to hate (as the Bible states so clearly yet you reject).

well if it were "so clearly" we wouldn't be discussing it now would we? :D



Unrighteous hate is bad, we all agree.

except it doesn't say unrighteous. it just says "hate".



Another excellent example of unrighteous hate.

and another example where it doesn't say it's unrighteous hate. it just says hate.



Until you see that hate is morally neutral you will forver be confused about such verses.

some hate is ok, towards evil things. but i've yet to see reason to hate individuals.

by the way, did you overlook my post on Jesus and his sermon the mount?

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 05:49 PM
God doesn't seperate the sin from the sinner.

What is sent to hell? The sin or the sinner? :think:

the sinner is sent to hell because he sins. he is morally responsible for what he does. but that doesn't mean God hates him. God is acting justly towards him. a judge can love the defendant with all his heart, and still convict him of breaking the law.



Evil isn't a being unto itself so of course it would take a being to act out evil. That being said God says we are what we are....

Proverbs 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.

Therefore if a man thinks evil a man is evil.

that sounds strangely like total depravity :think:

however, i do not think this would justify our hating individuals. i believe we all were born with parts of us that were evil. those parts lead us into committing sin. but we are never so far gone that we cannot repent of our evil and turn to God.

that is why i don't believe we are ever completely evil. complete evil would never repent, never turn away. and since all can turn away, they are not completely evil. and as long as there is some good in people, then there is still hope, and i will continue to do what is necessary to bring the individual to repentence. and as i see it now, that would never include hating them, as hating them would push them away.

CRASH
October 17th, 2005, 09:29 PM
some hate is ok, towards evil things. but i've yet to see reason to hate individuals.



How can a "thing" be evil and what good does it do to hate it?

Does God ever Hate people? And if so, do you condemn him for it?

CRASH
October 17th, 2005, 09:32 PM
I guess I'm scared because I don't want to be like a certain preacher from Kansas* that also preaches that hate is morally neutral.

*http://www.godhatesamerica.com (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

Yeah, I hate that guy! :box:

kmoney
October 17th, 2005, 09:37 PM
Good point. :up:

I guess...I don't know. What is the definition of righteous hate? I mean, how do I act towards them? Am I nice? Polite? Rude? In a perpetual state of rebuking?
That's where I had trouble understanding. Before to me the thought of a Christian hating someone seemed anti-Chistlike, but once I looked at the scriptures a good case can be made that there is a "righteous" hatred and an "unrighteous" hatred like Knight has been talking about. Even after I realized that my problem was how to practically live that out. I haven't necessarily found any amazing answer except it's different in each situation. I don't think you should approach anyone with hate imediately; if they are showing repentance and an open heart/mind than hate would probably drive them away. If they are stubborn and completely hard-hearted than some righteous hatred might be necessary, some stronger rebukes, potentially "shaking the dust" off, whatever that might mean.

This righteous hatred is new to me also.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 09:46 PM
How can a "thing" be evil

murder is by nature evil. any perversion of something God created/declared is evil.



and what good does it do to hate it?

to inform us that we should not do it.



Does God ever Hate people? And if so, do you condemn him for it?

i don't believe he hates people, but hates their deeds. he may hate things about them, but not the person themselves. if God hated individuals, i might question his goodness unless he explained to me some way where you could hate while loving them. but i don't understand how that could be.

CRASH
October 17th, 2005, 10:24 PM
murder is by nature evil. any perversion of something God created/declared is evil.



to inform us that we should not do it.



i don't believe he hates people, but hates their deeds. he may hate things about them, but not the person themselves. if God hated individuals, i might question his goodness unless he explained to me some way where you could hate while loving them. but i don't understand how that could be.


GIT-

How do you hate the murder and not hate the murderer?



I agree that it does that but how will that help minister to the murderer? Can you not find it in your heart to hate a child molesting murderer?



Doesn't God say in many places in the Bible that he hates people?



I am proud of you! You stumbled on the key to this subject, which you will want to pray about. Hating and Loving at the same time can it be done? When I heard this idea first time I fought it pretty hard, but I am now convinced that it is certainly possible. I am going to bed now but will look forward to discussing it later.



P.S. Is there a feature when you respond where it will automatically break the peices of a post down into several quotes for ease of response? And if so can someone tell me how to do that? And how about spellcheck - is it integrated in here anywhere?? Thanks and God Bless!

Bdiddie
October 17th, 2005, 10:40 PM
Jesus Loves You :cool:

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 10:41 PM
GIT-

How do you hate the murder and not hate the murderer?

if my brother committed murder, he would still be my brother, and i would still love him.



I agree that it does that but how will that help minister to the murder.

they will see the punishment of him. how would hating the murderer help deter those who murder?



Can you not find it in your heart to hate a child molesting murder?

no i cannot. i hate what they do, and believe they should be punished. but i do not hate the individual.



Doesn't God say in many places in the Bible that he hates people?

are not all people made in God's image? if we hate them, are we not hating God who made them?

James 3:9
With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;



I am proud of you! You stumbled on the key to this subject, which you will want to pray about. Hating and Loving at the same time can it be done? When I heard this idea first time I fought it pretty hard, but I am now convinced that it is certainly possible. I am going to bed now but will look forward to discussing it later.

at thist point i do not understand how that can be. how you can love through hating. to hate someone is not like them at all, to not love them. it means you do not treat them well, you do not care for them, you do not reach out to them at all. it means you seek their evil, their own demise, their destruction. i find that incompatible with love.



P.S. Is there a feature when you respond where it will automatically break the peices of a post down into several quotes for ease of response? And if so can someone tell me how to do that? And how about spellcheck - is it integrated in here anywhere?? Thanks and God Bless![/size][/color]

no integrated spell check. as for quotes, to individualize them, just put a [QU O TE] (without the spaces) and put [/QU O TE] at the end of the section.

Vaquero45
October 17th, 2005, 10:58 PM
I guess I'm scared because I don't want to be like a certain preacher from Kansas* that also preaches that hate is morally neutral.

*http://www.godhatesamerica.com

Wow, I've heard of that group but haven't seen this link. Amazing.

God_Is_Truth
October 17th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Wow, I've heard of that group but haven't seen this link. Amazing.

they're calvinists


hmm......:think:

Jujubee
October 17th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Jesus Loves You :cool:
and he loves you :cloud9:

Vaquero45
October 17th, 2005, 11:30 PM
they're calvinists


hmm......:think:

Well, if they are Calvinists, aren't they just pointing out the obvious?

"God predestined a bunch of perverts to hack off a bunch of self righteous idiots enough to make a website."

Army of One
October 18th, 2005, 03:29 AM
i don't believe he hates people, but hates their deeds. he may hate things about them, but not the person themselves. if God hated individuals, i might question his goodness unless he explained to me some way where you could hate while loving them. but i don't understand how that could be.Some verses to consider when asking whether God ever hates a person.

Lev. 20:23- "And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them."

Lev. 26:30- "I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you."

Ps. 5:5,6- "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; you hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

Ps. 11:5- "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Prov. 6:16-19- "These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren."

Hos. 9:15- "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious."

And some verses about believers hating people (not just their actions):

Ps. 26:5- "I have hated the assembly of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked."

Ps. 31:6- "I have hated those who regard useless idols; but I trust in the LORD."

Ps 119:113- "I hate the double-minded, but I love Your law."

Ps. 139:21,22- "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies."

Ecc. 3:1-8- "To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:...A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

Jude 22,23- "And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."

David2
October 18th, 2005, 05:06 AM
how do understand jude 22:23 there 'army of one'?

nice post , i can make lotsa a good talk from it!

DAvid2

JoyfulRook
October 18th, 2005, 11:08 AM
DAn2ine* He is from another planet!

*(Shamless "Star Wars" reference (http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/dantooine/).)

Knight
October 18th, 2005, 11:15 AM
Some verses to consider when asking whether God ever hates a person.:up:

ItIsWritten
October 18th, 2005, 11:45 AM
i don't believe he hates people...
Then what do you do with Ps. 5:5 "thou hatest all workers of iniquity", for example. Above Army of One posted this verse among others. And it does not say that he hates the "iniquity that they do", their "deeds of iniquity" or anything of the sort.

The inspired writers of Bible knew how to say the words deeds, works, ways, do, done, etc. as we see these words used in many other passages. So the question is, why did God inspire them NOT to use any such words to distinguish the focus of his hate in this verse? Did God actually inspire this wording in order to communictate something about himself that is essentially what we read in our English Bible today?

The only other option I can see is to suggest that this verse simply expresses the writer's personal (mistaken) opinion about God as opposed to reflecting a truth that God would have us to understand, but I'd be interested to hear how you respond to the words that God has preserved for us in this verse.


if God hated individuals, i might question his goodness unless he explained to me...
Try this instead. Rather than questioning God's goodness or requiring God to explain himself to you in a way that fits with your understanding of goodness, don't presume that your "knowledge of good and evil" gives you a proper foundation from which to quesiton his goodness.

When you find yourself thinking about questioning God's goodness, why not question your understanding instead -- and let his word be the standard by which such things are measured, his word including "thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (without trying to add words like deeds, etc. which he elected to omit)? Just a suggestion.

bling
October 18th, 2005, 12:27 PM
God_Is_Truth I am with you on this all the way!! We can not avoid Jesus changing the commands. We are not under the old law.
Hating murder does not mean we hate the Murderer.
I hate what David did, but I love David.
We can judge the actions of a person as being evil, but we can not judge the person afterwards as being evil at that time.
I do not equate “Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching” with hating people.
If I take all the O.T. references on hating people, it is not meant to be good for them to be hated, or some kind of blessing to be hated and is it neutral.

I agree with Knight that hate is not the opposite of love, the opposite of love if not caring even to hate. Hate is a strong emotion that can bring about change quickly, but that is usually in the person doing the hating, the person hated may not care or be drawn away. A couple that hate each other have something going for them, and change can happen quickly, but disconcert is hard to deal with.

Poly
October 18th, 2005, 12:32 PM
We can not avoid Jesus changing the commands.

Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

God_Is_Truth
October 18th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Matthew 5:18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

Matthew 5
43"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

is Jesus not saying the one they heard was no longer to be followed, and the one he says is to be followed from here on?

God_Is_Truth
October 18th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Army,

good verses. but i notice that all but one were from the old testament. and the only new testament one you used was a stretch in my opinion. so, with this in mind, i have to ask what you make of Matthew 5:43-44 where Jesus compared what they had heard with what he himself says. is Jesus not reinterpreting all those past verses? is he not giving a more clear understanding of them?

CRASH
October 18th, 2005, 01:20 PM
Then what do you do with Ps. 5:5 "thou hatest all workers of iniquity", for example. Above Army of One posted this verse among others. And it does not say that he hates the "iniquity that they do", their "deeds of iniquity" or anything of the sort.

The inspired writers of Bible knew how to say the words deeds, works, ways, do, done, etc. as we see these words used in many other passages. So the question is, why did God inspire them NOT to use any such words to distinguish the focus of his hate in this verse? Did God actually inspire this wording in order to communictate something about himself that is essentially what we read in our English Bible today?

The only other option I can see is to suggest that this verse simply expresses the writer's personal (mistaken) opinion about God as opposed to reflecting a truth that God would have us to understand, but I'd be interested to hear how you respond to the words that God has preserved for us in this verse.


Try this instead. Rather than questioning God's goodness or requiring God to explain himself to you in a way that fits with your understanding of goodness, don't presume that your "knowledge of good and evil" gives you a proper foundation from which to quesiton his goodness.

When you find yourself thinking about questioning God's goodness, why not question your understanding instead -- and let his word be the standard by which such things are measured, his word including "thou hatest all workers of iniquity" (without trying to add words like deeds, etc. which he elected to omit)? Just a suggestion.

Excellent and applicable points! Thank You.

Army of One
October 18th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Army,

good verses. but i notice that all but one were from the old testament. and the only new testament one you used was a stretch in my opinion. so, with this in mind, i have to ask what you make of Matthew 5:43-44 where Jesus compared what they had heard with what he himself says. is Jesus not reinterpreting all those past verses? is he not giving a more clear understanding of them?So do you think that God hated people in the OT, but not in the NT? Did His character somehow change between the two testaments? I think you are mis-interpreting Matthew 5:43-44, in that you are assuming that, "you have heard that it was said" is refering to parts of the OT. Rather, I think He was refering to some of the false teaching that existed at the time, such as the idea that only one's neighbors (ie other Jews) should be loved.

Army of One
October 18th, 2005, 02:37 PM
how do understand jude 22:23 there 'army of one'?Well, I understand it as saying that we should, on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.:D


nice post , i can make lotsa a good talk from it!

DAvid2 :shocked: My apologies to the rest of TOL. :doh:

God_Is_Truth
October 18th, 2005, 02:39 PM
So do you think that God hated people in the OT, but not in the NT?

i think the people misunderstood what God said in the OT.



Did His character somehow change between the two testaments?

no, that we agree on.



I think you are mis-interpreting Matthew 5:43-44, in that you are assuming that, "you have heard that it was said" is refering to parts of the OT. Rather, I think He was refering to some of the false teaching that existed at the time, such as the idea that only one's neighbors (ie other Jews) should be loved.

i disagree. all the other instances in that chapter are all quotes from the old testament as well. things like "eye for an eye" and "certificate of divorce" are directly from the old testament, and i see no reason to think he suddenly switched sources a few sentences later.

further, he goes on to link loving your enemy to what the Father does

Matthew 5
45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that the Father loves those who hate him. we see no hint of a suggestion to hate back those who hate you. no, we are to love them, just as the Father loves them as demonstrated by sending rain and causing the sun to rise for them. how could you call these things "hateful" towards them? would such things really be evidence of hate? surely not!

Army of One
October 18th, 2005, 03:03 PM
i think the people misunderstood what God said in the OT.I agree.




no, that we agree on.Good to hear.:)




i disagree. all the other instances in that chapter are all quotes from the old testament as well. things like "eye for an eye" and "certificate of divorce" are directly from the old testament, and i see no reason to think he suddenly switched sources a few sentences later.I agree, but I don't think He was saying any of that was wrong. He was just correcting their application of it. For example, He wasn't rescinding "an eye for an eye", but was pointing out that an individual should not seek his own vengeance. And He was not outlawing all divorce, but clarifying what the acceptable justifications were for divorce (sexual immorality), and pointing out that God intended marriages to last a lifetime. In the same way, He was correcting their understanding of "Love your neighbor".


further, he goes on to link loving your enemy to what the Father does

Matthew 5
45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus is saying that the Father loves those who hate him. we see no hint of a suggestion to hate back those who hate you. no, we are to love them, just as the Father loves them as demonstrated by sending rain and causing the sun to rise for them. how could you call these things "hateful" towards them? would such things really be evidence of hate? surely not!Again, I'm not saying that we should hate all unbelievers, or all our enemies. We should love them, just as God loves them. But there are times and places for hate as well, as is evidenced by the times God is recorded as hating people.

As Knight has already said, Love and Hate are not mutually exclusive. One of the reasons that I quoted Jude 22,23 is that it illustrates that point, in that it speaks of saving someone from the fire (an act motivated by love) by hating. The same can be seen in Romans 12:9.

billwald
October 19th, 2005, 10:45 AM
"I hate what David did, but I love David."

How does one have a relationship with a long dead human? The Catholic interpretation of "Communion of the Saints?" You Catholic?

stunrut
October 19th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Gee, you all make my point so much better than I do!

Lighthouse
October 19th, 2005, 10:29 PM
But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
The question wasn't whether or not we can hate our brothers, or sisters. We know we can't hate them. It's the ones who are not our brothers or sisters that this is about...

stunrut
October 20th, 2005, 01:47 AM
I don't believe that the bible teaches selective hatred.

Lighthouse
October 24th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Do you believe the Bible teaches hatred of sin, stunrut?

stunrut
October 26th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Yes I do but that's off topic isn't it? Or does this lead to hating people?

stunrut
October 26th, 2005, 07:48 PM
The question wasn't whether or not we can hate our brothers, or sisters. We know we can't hate them. It's the ones who are not our brothers or sisters that this is about...


We're not to hate even our enemies. We must judge them to hate them. Only God can judge those outside the church.

Lighthouse
October 26th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Yes I do but that's off topic isn't it? Or does this lead to hating people?
That's where it's leading...

Lighthouse
October 26th, 2005, 09:06 PM
We're not to hate even our enemies. We must judge them to hate them. Only God can judge those outside the church.
We are not to judge them the way we judge our brothers, but we can still make judgments about them. They are sinners. I am sure you agree. And that is a judgment.

But we judge our brothers differently. We distance ourselves if need be. We may even kick them out of the church. We don't do that to those who are not our brothers. Those outside of the church are the ones we go to, because of their sin, and point them to Christ. And it requires that we make a judgment in order to even know we need to witness to them.

Army of One
October 26th, 2005, 11:16 PM
We are not to judge them the way we judge our brothers, but we can still make judgments about them. They are sinners. I am sure you agree. And that is a judgment.

But we judge our brothers differently. We distance ourselves if need be. We may even kick them out of the church. We don't do that to those who are not our brothers. Those outside of the church are the ones we go to, because of their sin, and point them to Christ. And it requires that we make a judgment in order to even know we need to witness to them.:thumb:

Quasar1011
October 30th, 2005, 12:45 PM
As a Christian, it is very hard to not hate Osama bin Laden, let me tell ya!

Lighthouse
October 30th, 2005, 07:08 PM
stunrut-
Do you hate the old you? Who you were without Christ?

kmoney
May 12th, 2006, 04:11 PM
Just thought this thread needed a bump!

:banana:

CRASH
June 28th, 2006, 10:10 PM
Bill? Or the Bible?

Bill says...

The Bible says...
Psalms 139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies.

Romans 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

So did anyone learn anything from this thread?

Did anyone change their mind?

As a Christian, is it Okay to hate Osama bin Ladin?

CRASH
September 11th, 2006, 08:29 AM
I'm curious how the "love is not hate" side of this argument thinks we should deal with murderers, rapists and the like. If we know our neighbor is a homosexual freak who seduces and eats 13 year old boys should we walk over with a freshly baked pie and discuss his sin? "Oh Jeffery, thats not right. Please stop eating the neighborhood children, my son has no one left to play with..."

:rotfl: :rotfl:

Stripe
December 28th, 2006, 12:20 PM
AWESOME!!!

CRASH
May 28th, 2007, 04:35 PM
Hey Parson!

This one's for you!

CRASH
May 28th, 2007, 09:26 PM
Parson Jeff Bump!

CRASH
May 29th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Parson Jefferson's Hate Bump!

uk_mikey
May 29th, 2007, 04:45 PM
...Bump!


WOW!!!

What a MEGA thread!!!

I've just read it from start to finish.
The situation with LMOHM and the explaination of righteous hate is exhaustingly gratifying and revealing.

What an evening I'm having! :dizzy:

CRASH
May 29th, 2007, 08:22 PM
Glad you enjoyed!

I think the good parson will also enjoy it!

Prisca
May 30th, 2007, 12:38 AM
I had heard about this thread a long time ago, but never had a chance to read it. Wow! Glad it got bumped!

uk_mikey
May 30th, 2007, 07:22 AM
Glad you enjoyed!

I think the good parson will also enjoy it!

I've no idea what the parson will think. However, I've never even concidered the possibility of justifiable hate. Having read all the quotations and arguements put forward, it really does make a lot of sense, even if it feels kind of difficult at first.

You know those times when you feel a bulb light up on top of your head? :D

uk_mikey
May 30th, 2007, 08:37 AM
I'm looking for some clarification here.

I came a cross what seemed like a contradiction. I can't actually find it now, but I thought that someone said that righteous hate can only be right if directed at another Christian.
Another person has said that righteous hate can only right when directed at a non-christian... (I think! :confused: )... or can it be righteous at both?

Sorry. I'm a little confused, and not very bright. :)

CRASH
May 30th, 2007, 09:05 AM
I'm looking for some clarification here.

I came a cross what seemed like a contradiction. I can't actually find it now, but I thought that someone said that righteous hate can only be right if directed at another Christian.
Another person has said that righteous hate can only right when directed at a non-christian... (I think! :confused: )... or can it be righteous at both?

Sorry. I'm a little confused, and not very bright. :)

I'm not sure where you saw that.

Righteous at both is correct. The key most people miss (me included for many years) is that you can have variable degrees of love and hate at the same time.

I hate the man who used to beat me for 10 years as a child. I would like to see him dead and the sooner the better! It is a righteous hate. But I love him enough to forgive him if he repents and to preach Christ to him for the sake of his soul and because of my love for God.

uk_mikey
May 30th, 2007, 09:25 AM
I'm not sure where you saw that.

Righteous at both is correct. The key most people miss (me included for many years) is that you can have variable degrees of love and hate at the same time.

I hate the man who used to beat me for 10 years as a child. I would like to see him dead and the sooner the better! It is a righteous hate. But I love him enough to forgive him if he repents and to preach Christ to him for the sake of his soul and because of my love for God.

Sorry, I thought I'd read one point in this thread, and a contradictory point somewhere else, but I can't for the life of me find them anymore. I went through so many posts last night.

It doesn't matter anyway. Your explaination has really clarified it for me. Your example is spot on! Thanks. :)

MaryContrary
October 14th, 2007, 05:13 PM
All I can say is...wow! I'm so glad I found this thread. Just awesome!

Silk Queen
October 14th, 2007, 08:05 PM
I do my best to love, but I have been having a hard time getting past the actions of a family member that is doing some very hateful things that has a bad effect on others and myself.
Do I hate her maybe a bit but yet I love her, how is this possible?:confused:
I think there is a fine line between the two, but I am hoping love wins.

Silk Queen
October 14th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Ok got it together we are not to hate the person, hate what they may be doing but can't hate them....Love wins again.

CRASH
October 14th, 2007, 09:36 PM
Ok got it together we are not to hate the person, hate what they may be doing but can't hate them....Love wins again.

Or you could love them and hate them at the same time. It deosn't have to be 100% of either. I too hope love wins out! Tough love is a part of love too!:cheers:

CRASH
April 24th, 2010, 11:33 AM
Bump.

chrysostom
April 24th, 2010, 11:35 AM
hating anyone
anytime
is a sin

CRASH
April 24th, 2010, 12:30 PM
hating anyone
anytime
is a sin

So you condemn God for His hate?
You will answer to Him someday for that weak minded evil comment:

Some verses to consider when asking whether God ever hates a person.

Lev. 20:23 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Lev.%2020.23)- "And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them."

Lev. 26:30 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Lev.%2026.30)- "I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you."

Ps. 5:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps.%205.5),6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps%205.6)- "The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; you hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man."

Ps. 11:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps.%2011.5)- "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Prov. 6:16-19 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Prov.%206.16-19)- "These six things the LORD hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, A false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren."

Hos. 9:15 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Hos.%209.15)- "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more. All their princes are rebellious."

And some verses about believers hating people (not just their actions):

Ps. 26:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps.%2026.5)- "I have hated the assembly of evildoers, and will not sit with the wicked."

Ps. 31:6 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps.%2031.6)- "I have hated those who regard useless idols; but I trust in the LORD."

Ps 119:113 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps%20119.113)- "I hate the double-minded, but I love Your law."

Ps. 139:21 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps.%20139.21),22 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Ps%20139.22)- "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies."

Ecc. 3:1-8- "To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven:...A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."

Jude 22 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Jude%2022),23 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nkjv/Jude%201.23)- "And on some have compassion, making a distinction; but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh."