PDA

View Full Version : Saved are you?



elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:27 PM
Does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?

I say yes.

Jesus said: "...go and sin no more." John 8:11 (John 5:14)

Peter wrote: "...arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." 1 Peter 4:1

Paul wrote: "Awake to righteousness, and sin not..." 1 Corinthians 15:34

There's more, but what do you think, does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:32 PM
Please vote in the poll, too.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 08:33 PM
I think you're a fruit loop.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 08:34 PM
Please vote in the poll, too.


There's no choice for Fruit Loop - can you add one?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:34 PM
I think you're a fruit loop.Okay. But does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 08:36 PM
Okay. But does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?
No. If a person stopped sinning when they got saved, then at that point (point of salvation), there would be no more need for the grace of God. Just my opinion.

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 08:37 PM
Isnt flesh sinful?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:40 PM
No. If a person stopped sinning when they got saved, then at that point (point of salvation), there would be no more need for the grace of God. Just my opinion.Oh, so like if a homosexual stopped long enough to get saved, but then started up again. Are you saying he could be saved? :confused:

Because if what you are saying is true, then that would be the case. Sorry, I can't buy that.

But thanks for your input.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:44 PM
Isnt flesh sinful?Totally. Does your flesh become a Christian? Isn't that the old man, dead and buried?

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 08:46 PM
What iam thinking is are we ever totaly sinless while in this state?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 08:51 PM
What iam thinking is are we ever totaly sinless while in this state?
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Jesus came in the same type of flesh you did. Wasn't Jesus sinless with sinful flesh?

Shouldn't we arm ourselves with the same mind and cease from sin, as the scripture tells us to?

Servo
October 1st, 2005, 08:52 PM
Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.


Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Should we continue to sin because we can?

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 08:54 PM
Oh, so like if a homosexual stopped long enough to get saved, but then started up again. Are you saying he could be saved? :confused:

Because if what you are saying is true, then that would be the case. Sorry, I can't buy that.

But thanks for your input.
I'm not saying that they stopped sinning...

...I was saying that if when we get saved we quit sinning (because we are saved), as many of you are saying, then there would be no more need for the grace of God.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 08:56 PM
Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.

Reference:

John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 08:57 PM
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? Matt 27:46
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Psalm 22:1

2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It is possible that at some moment on the cross, when Jesus became sin on our behalf, that God the Father, in a sense, turned His back upon the Son. It says in Hab. 1:13 that God is too pure to look upon evil. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), that the Father, spiritually, turned away. At that time, the Son may have cried out.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:00 PM
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? Matt 27:46
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Psalm 22:1

2 Cor. 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." It is possible that at some moment on the cross, when Jesus became sin on our behalf, that God the Father, in a sense, turned His back upon the Son. It says in Hab. 1:13 that God is too pure to look upon evil. Therefore, it is possible that when Jesus bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), that the Father, spiritually, turned away. At that time, the Son may have cried out.
Which only leads to another, as interesting topic...where did Jesus go when he died? I have heard that He went to heaven but I believe that he went to hell...

...so anyways, lets try to stay on topic. Sorry guys, I have ADD.

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 09:05 PM
Which only leads to another, as interesting topic...where did Jesus go when he died? I have heard that He went to heaven but I believe that he went to hell...

...so anyways, lets try to stay on topic. Sorry guys, I have ADD.

1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;Which if i remember correctly was called paradise(Abrahams Bossum), which was split into 2 areas.One was for the Good and one for the not so good.

On Topic:

I beleive once you are saved you will still have sin.Example, Iam saved.The other day i was framing my basement and split my thumb open and said a curse word,as soon as i said it i knew i had sinned.I was ashamed of my self and asked for forgiveness.I have sinned but have been forgiven.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:08 PM
I beleive once you are saved you will still have sin.
:thumb: As is my belief.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:09 PM
The other day i was framing my basement and split my thumb open and said a curse word,as soon as i said it i knew i had sinned.I was ashamed of my self and asked for forgiveness.I have sinned but have been forgiven.


I'm not saying that they stopped sinning...

...I was saying that if when we get saved we quit sinning (because we are saved), as many of you are saying, then there would be no more need for the grace of God.

But since we continue to sin after being saved, thank God for His good grace.

Thanks, Jabez.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 09:12 PM
Which only leads to another, as interesting topic...where did Jesus go when he died? I have heard that He went to heaven but I believe that he went to hell...

...so anyways, lets try to stay on topic. Sorry guys, I have ADD.



Look, a bird!

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:15 PM
Look, a bird!
Where? Lets' get 'em...

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:15 PM
Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.I'd like to look at the verses you chose, and set your statement aside for a moment.


Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

If you are servant of something, it has dominion over you. Jesus stated that whoever sins (whoever) is a servant of sin. He gave no exceptions...

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

So the only way that sin could not have dominion over you is if you stopped sinning.


22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We have been set free from sin, which is what Jesus was talking about...

33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

We have becomes slaves to God, and a slave to God (saved) cannot continue to murder, steal, and fornicate.



Should we continue to sin because we can?We can't continue to sin. These last verses prove that.

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If we sin, then we are slaves to sin. What Paul is saying cannot be interpretated any other way, in my opinion.

Now, you said "even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation." But we can see from the verses you offered that of a person sins they are a slave to sin, and Christians are slaves to righteousness.

keypurr
October 1st, 2005, 09:16 PM
If we are true Christians and our faith is strong, we do not sin. For we cannot serve two masters. Our flesh wars against our spirit and may cause problems for the mind. But we are not under the law, which transgression of is sin. If the spirit of God is within us, how can we sin? if however we lose faith and turn against him, we will lose our salvation.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:17 PM
Another question...is it even possible for a human to live life without sin? And since the answer is no (because otherwise they would be a god), doesn't that mean that everyone dies without being saved?

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:18 PM
if however we lose faith and turn against him, we will lose our salvation

John 10:28

NO ONE

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 09:20 PM
If we are true Christians and our faith is strong, we do not sin. For we cannot serve two masters. Our flesh wars against our spirit and may cause problems for the mind. But we are not under the law, which transgression of is sin. If the spirit of God is within us, how can we sin? if however we lose faith and turn against him, we will lose our salvation.


Even though you are saved, sin can still happen.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:22 PM
I'm not saying that they stopped sinning...

...I was saying that if when we get saved we quit sinning (because we are saved)...Wait a minute. How do we quit sinning? Are you saying it is possible to stop sinning?

keypurr
October 1st, 2005, 09:24 PM
Another question...is it even possible for a human to live life without sin? And since the answer is no (because otherwise they would be a god), doesn't that mean that everyone dies without being saved?
With Christ, all things are possiable

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:24 PM
Wait a minute. How do we quit sinning? Are you saying it is possible to stop sinning?
Why don't you finish reading my whole post?

I was referencing to the fact that that was what you guys where saying and how that it would lead us to not needing the graces of God.

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 09:24 PM
Wait a minute. How do we quit sinning? Are you saying it is possible to stop sinning?

We dont in these bodies.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:26 PM
IF is a wonderful word, guys. Notice it sometime...

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:29 PM
Even though you are saved, sin can still happen.How do you know it happens? What is your measure?

If you say anything other than the law, it would surprise me. Then find me the verse that states cursing when you smash your finger is a sin in the law.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:29 PM
Well guys, just as this started to get to be a good, wholesome debate, I have to leave. I will update myself on all of your posts and return tomorrow night. Until then, later!


dRock

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:34 PM
We dont in these bodies.If a person does not have to stop sinning to be saved, then what the heck does repent mean?

So child raping Catholic priests don't have to stop raping, and they can be saved? :shocked:

Could you give me a list of the sins one can commit and still be saved, as opposed to the ones thay can't commit and be saved?

keypurr
October 1st, 2005, 09:34 PM
Even though you are saved, sin can still happen.
I used to think that also, but not any more. To be truly saved you must have faith in Christ. To receive his grace you must believe in him who God sent. You cannot have Christ and Satan in the temple of your body. A Christian does not have room for evil. It cannot co-exsist with Christ. Notice that the Law speaks of love for God and people.The fruit of the spirit within you is love if it is God's spirit. The law was given to teach us what God expects for us. But it is by grace we are saved, not the works of the law. Therefor, sin does not exsist for true believers. However that does not make void the law. it is kept out of love for him who gave it. That make it the perfect law when it kept out of love. So if we are not under the law, how can we sin? Sin is transgression of the law. Keep in mind though that he is coming back for thoes who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus Christ.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:35 PM
Well guys, just as this started to get to be a good, wholesome debate, I have to leave. I will update myself on all of your posts and return tomorrow night. Until then, later!


dRockThanks for your input!

koban
October 1st, 2005, 09:35 PM
How do you know it happens? What is your measure?

If you say anything other than the law, it would surprise me. Then find me the verse that states cursing when you smash your finger is a sin in the law.



Ex 20: 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:38 PM
Ex 20: 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
But what does that even mean? I have heard that it means to not call God any other name than YHWH, or even the gentiles weren't supposed to call Him anything (that's where they got Adonai from). I don't know :think: ... Well now, straggled around too much. Off to bed.

dRock
October 1st, 2005, 09:39 PM
Word to the wise:

Good points form both sides; however, I still believe that Christians can sin and still be saved. That is why God grants us forgiveness.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 09:43 PM
G'night Doc!

SOTK
October 1st, 2005, 09:50 PM
I challenge anybody here to find a verse in the Bible where Christians are referred to as "sinners". Christians are Children of God. We are Saints! We are not to refer to ourselves as "sinners". We do not sin anymore because Christ crucified our old sin nature on the Cross. Our old sin nature is gone. It's dead. We are wonderful new creatures in Christ!

We are to place our identity in Christ. Not sin! If one is identifying with sin and/or the world, they will of course act as such.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:53 PM
... I still believe that Christians can sin and still be saved. That is why God grants us forgiveness.What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1,2

He says God forbid. God forbid Christians should sin.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:2

He is asking how is it even possible, considering that we are dead to sin. How do you think we are dead to sin?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:56 PM
Ex 20: 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.That verse has nothing to do with cursing. That verse has more to do with claiming you are a child of God while acting like a child of the devil.

SOTK
October 1st, 2005, 09:57 PM
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. Romans 6:1,2

He says God forbid. God forbid Christians should sin.

How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:2

He is asking how is it even possible, considering that we are dead to sin. How do you think we are dead to sin?

Excellent use of scripture! Romans 6:1-2 is really what caused me to see the truth of our salvation! :thumb:

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 09:58 PM
Does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?

I say yes.

Jesus said: "...go and sin no more." John 8:11 (John 5:14)

Peter wrote: "...arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." 1 Peter 4:1

Paul wrote: "Awake to righteousness, and sin not..." 1 Corinthians 15:34

There's more, but what do you think, does a person have to stop sinning to be saved?

first i would like to note that saying "go and sin no more" does not apply to this dispensation.

now as to your question, i would say "no". i believe that it is impossible for us to stop sinning without the help of God. we are born slaves to sin and therefore need to be freed from it by someone else. to say that God would require us to stop sinning (completely) in order to be saved is inhumane. God would be asking of us the impossible.

now should we continue on in sin, after being saved? God forbid! repentence is a central part of the christian life. but that is quite different from ceasing to sin before being saved.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:58 PM
I used to think that also, but not any more. To be truly saved you must have faith in Christ. To receive his grace you must believe in him who God sent. You cannot have Christ and Satan in the temple of your body. A Christian does not have room for evil. It cannot co-exsist with Christ. Notice that the Law speaks of love for God and people.The fruit of the spirit within you is love if it is God's spirit. The law was given to teach us what God expects for us. But it is by grace we are saved, not the works of the law. Therefor, sin does not exsist for true believers. However that does not make void the law. it is kept out of love for him who gave it. That make it the perfect law when it kept out of love. So if we are not under the law, how can we sin? Sin is transgression of the law. Keep in mind though that he is coming back for thoes who keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus Christ. :thumb:

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 09:59 PM
I challenge anybody here to find a verse in the Bible where Christians are referred to as "sinners". Christians are Children of God. We are Saints! We are not to refer to ourselves as "sinners". We do not sin anymore because Christ crucified our old sin nature on the Cross. Our old sin nature is gone. It's dead. We are wonderful new creatures in Christ!

We are to place our identity in Christ. Not sin! If one is identifying with sin and/or the world, they will of course act as such. :thumb:

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 10:00 PM
I challenge anybody here to find a verse in the Bible where Christians are referred to as "sinners".

any thoughts on this verse?

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others;

:think:

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:05 PM
any thoughts on this verse?

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others;

:think:What is the purpose of laying on hands, in your opinion?

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 10:16 PM
If a person does not have to stop sinning to be saved, then what the heck does repent mean?

So child raping Catholic priests don't have to stop raping, and they can be saved? :shocked:

Could you give me a list of the sins one can commit and still be saved, as opposed to the ones thay can't commit and be saved?

All i can say is, Iam saved and have thoughts for a fleeting moment, I wish i had that(envy) Which is a sin.Thoughts can be sins.As far as the priest are concerned, they are sinning when engaged in those activities.If they truely repent they are forgiven.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 10:19 PM
That verse has nothing to do with cursing. That verse has more to do with claiming you are a child of God while acting like a child of the devil.


OK - you're being stupid again.

What do you think a curse is?

Do you think hitting your finger and yelling "$hi+" is a curse?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:41 PM
OK - you're being stupid again.

What do you think a curse is?

Do you think hitting your finger and yelling "$hi+" is a curse?koban,

I asked another person, not YOU, to show me a law in the Bible that said it was a sin if you cursed when you smashed your thumb. That is because he believes it is a sin if he curses when he smashes his thumb.

You responded to that request by posting a verse that has nothing to with a person sinning by cursing when he smashes his finger.

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 10:41 PM
Is it a sin to deny you know Jesus?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:45 PM
Is it a sin to deny you know Jesus?...if we deny him, he also will deny us. 2 Timoth 2:12

koban
October 1st, 2005, 10:45 PM
koban,

I asked another person, not YOU, to show me a law in the Bible that said it was a sin if you cursed when you smashed your thumb. That is because he believes it is a sin if he curses when he smashes his thumb.

You responded to that request by posting a verse that has nothing to with a person sinning by cursing when he smashes his finger.



You're right Elohiym,


Ex 20: 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

doesn't mention fingers at all. :darwinsm:

What a maroon! (in case you've forgotten, this is a kinder, gentler way of saying that you're a moron, dropped on your head as a child, slightly retarded)



What do you think a curse is?

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 10:46 PM
What is the purpose of laying on hands, in your opinion?

as i understand it, it is to consecrate someone to God for a special purpose, and sometimes to bestow a gift upon them (spiritual gifts especially).

did you see my other post by the way, about the original question?

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 10:47 PM
...if we deny him, he also will deny us. 2 Timoth 2:12

So do you consider that a sin or not?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:51 PM
now should we continue on in sin, after being saved? God forbid! repentence is a central part of the christian life. but that is quite different from ceasing to sin before being saved.So if we continue on sinning after we are saved then we are not saved. Isn't that what you are saying?

Turbo
October 1st, 2005, 10:52 PM
Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.


Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Should we continue to sin because we can?

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.:up: Worth repeating.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:52 PM
So do you consider that a sin or not?Yes.

Do you consider denying Jesus a sin?

Jabez
October 1st, 2005, 10:54 PM
Yes.

Do you consider denying Jesus a sin?

Yes, Was Peter a saved?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:54 PM
:up: Worth repeating.Turbo,

Please tell me Denver Bible Church doesn't teach someone born again continues to sin.

Turbo
October 1st, 2005, 10:54 PM
How about approving of those who practice homosexuality? Does God consider that a sin, elohiym?

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 10:56 PM
So if we continue on sinning after we are saved then we are not saved. Isn't that what you are saying?

no, that would mean our salvation was dependent on us, instead of Christ. what i mean is that when you are saved, you should repent of your sins. but repentence is a process, not something instant.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 10:58 PM
Yes, Was Peter a saved?Not when he denied Jesus. The Bible states he was not even converted (saved) at the last supper, just prior to his denial...

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Luke 22:31,32

I believe Jesus.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:00 PM
no, that would mean our salvation was dependent on us, instead of Christ. what i mean is that when you are saved, you should repent of your sins. but repentence is a process, not something instant.Okay. Using homosexuality as an example, can a homosexual be saved without stopping sinning? Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:00 PM
Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.


Romans 6
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Should we continue to sin because we can?

Romans 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.



:thumb: too


I think where Elohiym gets hung up is on the definition of sin. In his mind (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) sin = guilt under the law.

If you take an action, say lust or envy that is prohibited under the law, and perform that action after salvation, you don't perform sin, because you're no longer under the law.

Where he loses me is in saying that it isn't really you anyways, it's your old sinful nature that performs the act, and it isn't you, besides, its dead anyways, so the law doesn't apply to it.

:dizzy:

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:02 PM
Okay. Using homosexuality as an example, can a homosexual be saved without stopping sinning?

Yes



Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?


Yes, but he wouldn't want to if he was really saved.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:07 PM
How about approving of those who practice homosexuality? Does God consider that a sin, elohiym?Yes. God does not approve of anyone that condones sin. He says to rebuke those who sin before all.

Do you approve of those who practice homosexuality, Turbo, and do you think they have to stop performing homosexuality to be saved?

How about after they are saved, can they start sinning again, and still be saved? :think:

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 11:07 PM
Okay. Using homosexuality as an example, can a homosexual be saved without stopping sinning?

yes, as i said before, it's impossible to stop sinning before you are saved.



Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

yes. salvation is by grace (unearned and undeserved) through faith, not by works.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:11 PM
Yes. God does not approve of anyone that condones sin. He says to rebuke those who sin before all.

Do you approve of those who practice homosexuality, Turbo, and do you think they have to stop performing homosexuality to be saved?


I know you asked Turbo, but I'm sure he'll respond too, so don't get your knickers in a wad.

Can anyone stop sinning before they're saved?



How about after they are saved, can they start sinning again, and still be saved? :think:



No, because (according to Elohiym) they can't sin after they're saved, no matter what they do.

SOTK
October 1st, 2005, 11:22 PM
any thoughts on this verse?

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others;

:think:

My first thought about the verse is that share responsibility are the operative words.

Here is what the King James Version says:

"22Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure."

Keep thyself pure seems to suggest that we can become tainted by another's sin. Does this mean we are a sinner? I don't think it does. Tainted or affected does not equate with being a sinner.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:23 PM
I think where Elohiym gets hung up is on the definition of sin. In his mind (and I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong) sin = guilt under the law. No. Sin is transgression of the law.


If you take an action, say lust or envy that is prohibited under the law, and perform that action after salvation, you don't perform sin, because you're no longer under the law.So if "you don't perform sin" how are you sinning?


Where he loses me is in saying that it isn't really you anyways, it's your old sinful nature that performs the act, and it isn't you, besides, its dead anyways, so the law doesn't apply to it.Read Romans.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Romans 7:16-20

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:36 PM
I know you asked Turbo, but I'm sure he'll respond too, so don't get your knickers in a wad.

Can anyone stop sinning before they're saved?No.







...because (according to Elohiym) they can't sin after they're saved, no matter what they do.If they turn back to sin, they are not saved.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. John 8:34

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 11:37 PM
Keep thyself pure seems to suggest that we can become tainted by another's sin. Does this mean we are a sinner? I don't think it does. Tainted or affected does not equate with being a sinner.

what then might it mean?

SOTK
October 1st, 2005, 11:43 PM
I know you asked Turbo, but I'm sure he'll respond too, so don't get your knickers in a wad.

Can anyone stop sinning before they're saved?

No. We are born Children of Wrath from the womb and are attracted to our master, Satan. It's impossible to be without sin without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.



No, because (according to Elohiym) they can't sin after they're saved, no matter what they do.

Again, how can believers sin if Christ crucified our sin natures on the Cross? Which way is it? Did Christ conquer sin or not?

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:45 PM
No. Sin is transgression of the law.

C'mon, that was pretty close.



So if "you don't perform sin" how are you sinning?

Exactly!
And that's where people talk at cross purposes. Performing the sin act does not = sinning under your paradigm.

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:46 PM
yes, as i said before, it's impossible to stop sinning before you are saved.

I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?


yes. salvation is by grace (unearned and undeserved) through faith, not by works.I disagree with your conclusion. A person who continues to sin in spite of grace is grieving the Holy Spirit. That is the unpardonable sin.

I hope you never teach a child molester that he will still be saved even if he "stumbles" again, because such a view would result in children being molested. See Catholic Church. He should be told that there is a criminal penalty for what he does, and if he wants to exchange his life for the righteousness of God, then he cannot take the LORD's name in vain by claiming to be saved and raping children at the same time.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:50 PM
No.






If they turn back to sin, they are not saved.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. John 8:34



Willfully. Can it be willfully if we have no control over our dead body and sin nature? Or does salvation afford us some control over our sin nature? Full control? No control?

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:51 PM
no, that would mean our salvation was dependent on us, instead of Christ. what i mean is that when you are saved, you should repent of your sins. but repentence is a process, not something instant.



Outstanding! :BRAVO:

SOTK
October 1st, 2005, 11:54 PM
what then might it mean?

As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer.

Back to your question, it means what I said above about recognizing our Identity in Christ. If we do not do this, we aren't recognizing that we are already pure and righteous.

koban
October 1st, 2005, 11:55 PM
yes, as i said before, it's impossible to stop sinning before you are saved.



yes. salvation is by grace (unearned and undeserved) through faith, not by works.


:thumb:

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:56 PM
...when you are saved, you should repent of your sins. but repentence is a process, not something instant.Can you briefly describe your understanding of repentance?

God_Is_Truth
October 1st, 2005, 11:56 PM
I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

first you say he "is saved" then you say "still be saved" which seems to say he isn't saved. which is it?



I disagree with your conclusion. A person who continues to sin in spite of grace is grieving the Holy Spirit. That is the unpardonable sin.

that's not the unpardonable sin at all! the unpardonable sin was attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of the devil. it was saying that Jesus was casting out demons, by the power of the devil.



I hope you never teach a child molester that he will still be saved even if he "stumbles" again, because such a view would result in children being molested.

saying that they will yet be saved doesn't mean i would approve of their works! i would clearly condemn what they do. also, just because they will be saved in the end does not mean God would not allow certain things to happen to them in this lifetime in order to get them refocused on him. judgement starts in the house of God.



He should be told that there is a criminal penalty for what he does,

Jesus paid the penalty for all sins, right?



and if he wants to exchange his life for the righteousness of God, then he cannot take the LORD's name in vain by claiming to be saved and raping children at the same time.

so Jesus only saved us up the point where we accepted him? is that what you mean? that he doesn't cover anything new? he cleanses you one time and then you're on your own? are you really saying that?

elohiym
October 1st, 2005, 11:57 PM
So like if the guy is molesting me, are you claiming that he could be in the process of repentance?

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 12:01 AM
As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer.

Back to your question, it means what I said above about recognizing our Identity in Christ. If we do not do this, we aren't recognizing that we are already pure and righteous.

hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 12:01 AM
No. We are born Children of Wrath from the womb and are attracted to our master, Satan. It's impossible to be without sin without the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

:thumb:


Again, how can believers sin if Christ crucified our sin natures on the Cross? Which way is it? Did Christ conquer sin or not?

Apparently (according to my (perhaps flawed) understanding of Elohiym's position), He only crucified the sin natures in our reborn spirit. This "dead" body we drag around in still has the propensity to sin. Of course, it doesn't really count as sin, because it's dead, and it doesn't matter anyways, because it's not really us. :dizzy:

SOTK
October 2nd, 2005, 12:05 AM
hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.

Okay. Let me read it again and think about it.

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 12:06 AM
So like if the guy is molesting me, are you claiming that he could be in the process of repentance?

yes, though at the moment he is failing it. what i meant by "process" is that it takes time, the work of God, and the cooperation of the individual. you do not just one day get saved and never sin again. no, you get saved, commit yourself to not sinning and accept God's help every step of the way. you will still fall occasionally, you will still mess up. but because of your committment, you get up, remind yourself of who you serve and what he wants, and decide not to do it again. that's what's meant by repentence being a process.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 12:28 AM
first you say he "is saved" then you say "still be saved" which seems to say he isn't saved. which is it?

I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

Which is to say...

Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?



that's not the unpardonable sin at all! the unpardonable sin was attributing the miracles of Jesus to the power of the devil. it was saying that Jesus was casting out demons, by the power of the devil.We can agree to disagree on that. Maybe another thread sometime. :)


saying that they will yet be saved doesn't mean i would approve of their works! i would clearly condemn what they do.I'm glad you don't approve of their works. How would you condemn their works? Would you call the police?



also, just because they will be saved in the end does not mean God would not allow certain things to happen to them in this lifetime in order to get them refocused on him. judgement starts in the house of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?" John says someone born of God doesn't do that. So, I guess it really is "by their fruits ye shall know them."


Jesus paid the penalty for all sins, right?Yes, but my point is that there is a criminal penalty for child molestation, too.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


so Jesus only saved us up the point where we accepted him?No. He saved us at the point we accepted him, and accepting him means doing what he states and repenting from sin completely. Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?



is that what you mean? that he doesn't cover anything new? he cleanses you one time and then you're on your own? are you really saying that?No. He cleanses you one time forever, and then He and the Father dwell in you, and you dwell in them. You are certainly not on your own.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 12:33 AM
As I have said in a few other threads, some Christians will still stumble, or more to the point, their physical selves will stumble. As Christians, our identity should always be in Christ. We should never place our identity in sin and/or the world. It's a self-fullfilling prophecy. If you do not place your identity in Christ, you will not be righteous nor pure. Saying that Christians sin is wrong. Saying that Christians can sin and still remain saved is not Biblical. Christ conquered sin. Do you believe that Christ should re-crucify your old sin nature over and over and over again? Or was once good enough?

I say that He did it once and that I no longer sin. I can't because my old sin nature is gone. It doesn't exist any longer. :first:

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 12:45 AM
I asked: Then once he is saved, however that happened, can he continue to sin and still be saved?

Which is to say...

Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?

yes, that is what grace is all about--being saved when you don't deserve it.



We can agree to disagree on that. Maybe another thread sometime. :)

Mark 3 may be of interest to you on that subject.



I'm glad you don't approve of their works. How would you condemn their works? Would you call the police?

they would need to do something legally wrong before i called the police. if it was something morally wrong, but not legally wrong, then i would speak to them face to face, show them where the bible stated it was wrong and tell them to repent.



We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1 John 5:18

Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"

no.

James 1
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.



John says someone born of God doesn't do that. So, I guess it really is "by their fruits ye shall know them."

John also said we must keep the law. do you believe we are under law? and yes, you can tell if a person knows Christ by how they live their life. if they continually sin without remorse, they do not know Him. if they sin only now and then, feeling much remorse when they do sin, then it's safe to say they know Him.



Yes, but my point is that there is a criminal penalty for child molestation, too.

Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

that pertains to this life, here on earth, not before God in the next.



No. He saved us at the point we accepted him, and accepting him means doing what he states and repenting from sin completely. Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

where are you quoting from?



No. He cleanses you one time forever, and then He and the Father dwell in you, and you dwell in them. You are certainly not on your own.

then how can you ever say someone could lose salvation? or do you believe that once you are saved you are incapacitated with regards to sinning? that is, it is impossible for you to ever do anything sinful after you have been saved?

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 12:56 AM
Apparently (according to my (perhaps flawed) understanding of Elohiym's position), He only crucified the sin natures in our reborn spirit.The spirit we are reborn with is God's spirit. A spirit is not carnal, and does not have a sin nature. That is our carnal mind with the sin nature, the old man that is crucified, the one who didn't want to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


This "dead" body we drag around in still has the propensity to sin.But because it has that propensity, it has been slain by the law. As Paul stated, the law slew him. Once dead, the law has no more effect on a dead body, like Paul said. No law, no transgression of the law; no transgression of the law, no sin, like Paul said.

Cursing when you smash your finger isn't a sin, as some may think. Drinking a glass of wine to get a buzz isn't a sin, as some may think. People tend to pick and choose what they consider sin, and they tend to add things that could never be considered sin according to the letter of the law. That is how it becomes a yoke, and why it is bondage. How about we just walk with God our Father together in the cool of the day, eating from every tree but one.



Of course, it doesn't really count as sin, because it's dead, and it doesn't matter anyways, because it's not really us. :dizzy:That is why it sounds like foolishness to those who are perishing; but you are not perishing because YOU were baptized into Christ, and you are free from sin totally including the stain of sin. Right?

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 01:02 AM
Your either in your sins or out of them, he sepertates your sin from you as far as the east is to the west by grace,
Righteousness depends on faith,
The flesh will not enter the kingdom, only the soul
.Theres no need to try saving flesh, but it will be put to death as we renew our minds.
Romans 4.4 Now him that worketh is the reward not rekconed of grace, but of dept.

charity

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 01:12 AM
The spirit we are reborn with is God's spirit. A spirit is not carnal, and does not have a sin nature. That is our carnal mind with the sin nature, the old man that is crucified, the one who didn't want to stop eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

But because it has that propensity, it has been slain by the law. As Paul stated, the law slew him. Once dead, the law has no more effect on a dead body, like Paul said. No law, no transgression of the law; no transgression of the law, no sin, like Paul said.

Cursing when you smash your finger isn't a sin, as some may think. Drinking a glass of wine to get a buzz isn't a sin, as some may think. People tend to pick and choose what they consider sin, and they tend to add things that could never be considered sin according to the letter of the law. That is how it becomes a yoke, and why it is bondage. How about we just walk with God our Father together in the cool of the day, eating from every tree but one.


That is why it sounds like foolishness to those who are perishing; but you are not perishing because YOU were baptized into Christ, and you are free from sin totally including the stain of sin. Right?


Sure Elohiym - it's a Zen thing - I sin, but I don't sin.

Depends which I you're talking about.

This concept too easily lends itself to abuse.

SOTK
October 2nd, 2005, 01:15 AM
hmm, i don't see how any of that explains what the verse means? that's really what i was going for. i do agree with what you said that christians don't sin and that our identity is in Christ, which is why i am interested in what you think that verse is actually saying.


1 Timothy 5:20-22
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. 22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.

Okay, GIT, I went back and read the verse again. Actually, I read the entire chapter. The entire chapter is about Church conduct. The scripture quoted above is specifically about Church Elders and how they are to be treated and also how Elders are to conduct themselves. "Doing nothing with partiality" stands out to me. An Elder should be above reproach. An Elder should be pure. I do not think the Elder is supposed to get caught up in the sins of new church attendees nor quick to lay hands on a believer to make a new elder. Thought and discernment should come before the Elder taking action on anything.


The Message 1 Timothy 5:22

22Don't appoint people to church leadership positions too hastily. If a person is involved in some serious sins, you don't want to become an unwitting accomplice. In any event, keep a close check on yourself.

There is no indication in The Message, KJV, NKJV, NLT, or the NIV that "others" or "person(s)" refers to believers. Usually, the term Elect is used to describe the Believers within the New Testament. I notice that it is not used here. :think:

At any rate, I do not think this scripture is glaring enough to cause me to believe that Christians sin.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 01:38 AM
I asked: Can he contniue to sin, like rape children, and still be a child of God?


yes, that is what grace is all about--being saved when you don't deserve it.I disagree with your conclusion.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1 John 2:9

The person who rapes a child, hates a child. It should be a bumper sticker!

Would you claim that what John stated doesn't apply to this dispensation? Sounds like a general principle of salvation to me.


I asked: Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"


no.

James 1
14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.What is his lust, but covetousness?

...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

So if you're lusting, you're coveting, according to Paul. All sin is of the devil, so the wicked one is certainly touching a child molester while he is in the act of raping.



John also said we must keep the law. So? Paul did, too. Here's one example:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

So do you think he is telling them to keep that command, or break it?


do you believe we are under law?Nope. To be under the law would mean that my righteousness depended upon me keeping the letter of the law, which is what the old covenant with was.



and yes, you can tell if a person knows Christ by how they live their life. if they continually sin without remorse, they do not know Him. if they sin only now and then, feeling much remorse when they do sin, then it's safe to say they know Him.I disagree. See above.

I stated: Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?


where are you quoting from?

1 Corinthians 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.



then how can you ever say someone could lose salvation? I don't.


or do you believe that once you are saved you are incapacitated with regards to sinning?I haven't lost my free wil, if that is what you are implying.


that is, it is impossible for you to ever do anything sinful after you have been saved?It is impossible for a person in Christ to sin. A person in Christ is saved. There is no sin in Christ.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So if we are in him, and in him is no sin, how can we possibly be sinning while in him? It's just not possible. Thankfully.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 01:44 AM
Sure Elohiym - it's a Zen thing - I sin, but I don't sin.

Depends which I you're talking about.So who are YOU? Are you the old man still, or are you a reborn child of God?


This concept too easily lends itself to abuse.I disagree.

The concept of sin lends itself easily to abuse.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 01:46 AM
It's late. I gotta crash.

Peace all. :wave:

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 01:48 AM
So who are YOU? Are you the old man still, or are you a reborn child of God?

I am both. I have to be, as long as I exist in this earth bound body. Can you separate the actions of one from the other?


I disagree.

I know you do.


The concept of sin lends itself easily to abuse.

The concept of forgiving sin lends itself easily to abuse. Nobody said it was going to be easy.

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 02:19 AM
I disagree with your conclusion.

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 1 John 2:9

The person who rapes a child, hates a child. It should be a bumper sticker!

Would you claim that what John stated doesn't apply to this dispensation? Sounds like a general principle of salvation to me.

John's statement is in full agreement with mine, that he who lives a sinful lifestyle (one marked with lots of sin) is in darkness. when you hate your brother, it's not a one time mess up. it's a continual thing.



I asked: Would you say if someone is raping a child, they are being touched by "that wicked one?"

What is his lust, but covetousness?

...for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Romans 7:7

what version is that? i tend to use the NASB and it renders is this way:

for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."



So if you're lusting, you're coveting, according to Paul.

whether lusting is coveting is debatable, as they are different commands in the 10 commandments, but regardless, how does that address my point that it's not the devil, but our own sinful flesh?



All sin is of the devil, so the wicked one is certainly touching a child molester while he is in the act of raping.

well instead of addressing my point you've gone and assumed your conclusion is true.



So? Paul did, too. Here's one example:

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Corinthians 14:34

So do you think he is telling them to keep that command, or break it?

the fact that he states "as also saith the law" proves he is not quoting the law or using it as the basis. he quotes the law as additional support which means it is not the center of his point. he is not preaching law abidance here. Paul does not preach that we are under law and need to keep it.



Nope. To be under the law would mean that my righteousness depended upon me keeping the letter of the law, which is what the old covenant with was.

put yourself in the shoes of a 1st century Jew, who knew nothing about the apostle Paul. now what do you think the phrase "under the law" would've meant to him?



I stated: Paul said "awake to righteousness and sin not." Isn't that part of this dispensation?

again, we have a disagreement on the translation. the nasb renders it thus:

34Become sober-minded as you ought, and stop sinning;

"become sober minded" is similar to "awake to righteousness", but also distinctly different. Paul's words here are calling the individual to live as he ought to, in accordance with the righteousness he has.



I don't.

isn't that what you have been implying? or do you hold that one who sins is clearly not saved and never was saved?



I haven't lost my free wil, if that is what you are implying.

it was.



It is impossible for a person in Christ to sin. A person in Christ is saved. There is no sin in Christ.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

So if we are in him, and in him is no sin, how can we possibly be sinning while in him? It's just not possible. Thankfully.

do you mean practically sinning? that someone in Christ will never do something that was once deemed sinful? that once they are saved they never again steal, murder, rape, lie, cheat or do anything else sinful?

or do you mean that since we are in Christ we cannot sin because he is our righteousness? that though we do things that previously were called sin, they are not counted against us anymore and therefore we do not sin?

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 02:23 AM
Okay, GIT, I went back and read the verse again. Actually, I read the entire chapter. The entire chapter is about Church conduct. The scripture quoted above is specifically about Church Elders and how they are to be treated and also how Elders are to conduct themselves. "Doing nothing with partiality" stands out to me. An Elder should be above reproach. An Elder should be pure. I do not think the Elder is supposed to get caught up in the sins of new church attendees nor quick to lay hands on a believer to make a new elder. Thought and discernment should come before the Elder taking action on anything.


There is no indication in The Message, KJV, NKJV, NLT, or the NIV that "others" or "person(s)" refers to believers. Usually, the term Elect is used to describe the Believers within the New Testament. I notice that it is not used here. :think:

At any rate, I do not think this scripture is glaring enough to cause me to believe that Christians sin.

sounds good. it was just a verse i thought could be a problem and was curious what you made of it. thanks for taking the time to look and explain it to me :thumb:

SOTK
October 2nd, 2005, 04:38 AM
sounds good. it was just a verse i thought could be a problem and was curious what you made of it. thanks for taking the time to look and explain it to me :thumb:

Thank you, too. :up:

dRock
October 2nd, 2005, 06:35 AM
first i would like to note that saying "go and sin no more" does not apply to this dispensation.

now as to your question, i would say "no". i believe that it is impossible for us to stop sinning without the help of God. we are born slaves to sin and therefore need to be freed from it by someone else. to say that God would require us to stop sinning (completely) in order to be saved is inhumane. God would be asking of us the impossible.

now should we continue on in sin, after being saved? God forbid! repentence is a central part of the christian life. but that is quite different from ceasing to sin before being saved.
Very good point, GIT.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:32 AM
:up: Worth repeating.Okay.


Christians still sin, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer sinners, but saints. Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.How about if we say it like this?

Christians still rape children, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer molesters, but saints. Even though Christians still rape children, they do not lose their salvation.

That is what he is essentially saying, Turbo.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though Christians still have homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.

Or like this?

Christians still sleep with their neighbors wife, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer are adulterers, but saints. Even though Christians still sleep with their neighbors wife, they do not lose their salvation.

Yes, that is worth repeating. And whenever I hear it, it still sounds wrong.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:39 AM
Christians still have abortions, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer murderers, but saints. Even though Christians still has an abortion, they do not lose their salvation.

Nope. Just doesn't work for me.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 12:32 PM
Even though Christians still sin, they do not lose their salvation.


Reference:

John 10:28 - "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."That verse does not support a claim that Christians can continue in sin. If we walk in darkness (sin), we have no eternal life, unless you mean eternity in hell, or something like that.

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1 John 1:6

That means if a person continues to sin (walk in darkness), that person is not in Chirst's hand at all (fellowship with him). To know this, according to John, is to know the truth.

Servo
October 2nd, 2005, 01:10 PM
Okay.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still rape children, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer molesters, but saints. Even though Christians still rape children, they do not lose their salvation.

That is what he is essentially saying, Turbo.

How about if we say it like this?

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though Christians still have homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.

Or like this?

Christians still sleep with their neighbor's wife, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer are adulterers, but saints. Even though Christians still sleep with their neighbor's wife, they do not lose their salvation.

Yes, that is worth repeating. And whenever I hear it, it still sounds wrong.

To be a sinner, you must meet two conditions:


1) You must have sinned.

AND

2) You must be under the Law.


Christians have met the first condition (we all have), but Christians no longer meet the second condition. Christ paid the price, God made the ultimate sacrifice.


Romans 7:
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

1 Timothy:

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.


And again, since we are now under grace that does not mean that we should go about sinning because we will no longer be judged by the law. We now have the power and strength to fight against the desire to sin. Not because we want to try and keep the Law, but because we choose to walk in the Spirit.

Galatians 5
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 01:14 PM
Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?
Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?
Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?

Turbo
October 2nd, 2005, 01:24 PM
Yes. God does not approve of anyone that condones sin. He says to rebuke those who sin before all.

Do you approve of those who practice homosexuality, Turbo...
No. I was under the impression that you did based on many of your past posts. Here are just a few examples:


Anyone born homosexual has the right to love and be loved. They are not selfish and hateful because they want to have a relationship.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560836&postcount=112


Based on my study of the Bible, I believe that the Bible does not state or imply that ALL homsexuality is immoral.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560965&postcount=127


I look forward to when we can test for homosexuality genetically.... You believe that all homosexuality is a sin. The Bible doesn't say that in any verse, and it CANNOT be implied.... Whether you want to accept it or not, some people are born homosexual. http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=561363&postcount=133

I'd be happy to learn that your beliefs have changed since you made these posts.




How about after they are saved, can they start sinning again, and still be saved? :think:Yes. If they are saved, they remain saved.


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Ephesians 4:30

being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; Philippians 1:6



If believers were incapable of behaving immorally, then Paul would not have written to believers to correct their immorality.


Nor would he have instructed them to judge and rebuke those within the church.


1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”



Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 1 Timothy 5:19-20

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 01:25 PM
Christians still have abortions, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer murderers, but saints. Even though Christians still has an abortion, they do not lose their salvation.

Nope. Just doesn't work for me.

you said earlier you don't believe Christians can ever lose their salvation. so what do you think happens when a Christian has an abortion or muders someone?

Crow
October 2nd, 2005, 01:39 PM
Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?
Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?
Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?

I think this problem arises from sin being used to describe 2 different things.

1. Sin, as in that which separates us from God

and

2. Sin, as in wicked, immoral, gross, wrong, or unlawful acts.


I agree with and understand the concept of #1. We, as Christians, cannot sin in this sense as we cannot lose our salvation.

On #2, Christians can perform sinful acts with the best of the heathen.

The more I look at this the more I can understand how confusing this would be to someone on the outside looking in--Christians stating that they cannot sin yet we all know Christians commit a rich assortment of that which is commonly referred to as sin. Even Paul refers to Christians committing sinful acts.

Surely there has to be a better way of describing eternal security which doesn't cause such confusion. I think I am going to stick with "you can't lose your salvation because of your sinful acts" over "you can't sin."

I believe that we should strive for clarity of understanding rather than being majorly anal about word choice. We shouldn't make the concept more difficult to grasp than it is.

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 02:50 PM
I think this problem arises from sin being used to describe 2 different things.

1. Sin, as in that which separates us from God

and

2. Sin, as in wicked, immoral, gross, wrong, or unlawful acts.


I agree with and understand the concept of #1. We, as Christians, cannot sin in this sense as we cannot lose our salvation.

On #2, Christians can perform sinful acts with the best of the heathen.

The more I look at this the more I can understand how confusing this would be to someone on the outside looking in--Christians stating that they cannot sin yet we all know Christians commit a rich assortment of that which is commonly referred to as sin. Even Paul refers to Christians committing sinful acts.

Surely there has to be a better way of describing eternal security which doesn't cause such confusion. I think I am going to stick with "you can't lose your salvation because of your sinful acts" over "you can't sin."

I believe that we should strive for clarity of understanding rather than being majorly anal about word choice. We shouldn't make the concept more difficult to grasp than it is.
Right. For a real believer growing in maturity of the faith the Father picks him(/her) up after a fall, cleans him up, and places him upon his feet again. He who is of Satan remains in his fallen state for he will not allow God to pick him up or clean him off. He who is not of the Father but pretends is not known intimately of the Father and will eventually walk away willfully.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 04:57 PM
No. I was under the impression that you did based on many of your past posts. Here are just a few examples:Well, you certainly know how to get your post responded to first. :)

I wish I could tell you that I have changed my opinion, but I was still forming my opinion at that time, and I still basically agree with the statements of mine you posted. Perhaps something else I stated made you think I supported unrepentent homosexuality somewhere, as those statements don't support your contention. and I don't recall outright supporting unrepentent homosexuality; and, at this point, it is I that am trying to explain to you why a homosexual has to cease from sin, as in no longer continues sinning, if he claims to be saved.

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Translation: If someone says they are saved, and they still rape children, they are still in darkness (unsaved). This is true for both dispensations.

But let's look at the statements of mine you quoted, so neither of us are misunderstood:


Anyone born homosexual has the right to love and be loved. They are not selfish and hateful because they want to have a relationship. What is untrue about that statement? Is a homosexual born with a carnal mind? Yes, everyone is. The first cause of homosexuality is the carnal mind; therefore, homosexuality is genetic.

Who does not have the right to love and be loved? Their desire to have a relationship is not selfish or hateful, just misplaced because of the carnal mind.


]Based on my study of the Bible, I believe that the Bible does not state or imply that ALL homsexuality is immoral.When I see a verse that states two hermaphrodites cannot love each other and have a relationship, I might change my position. Is it good for man to be alone? God says no. I don't want a hermaphrodite to be alone...and that's just one possible situation. I am in full agreement that unrepentent homosexuality is immoral and therefore sin.

Where you and I differ is that I believe he must repent from sin, and NEVER sin again, or he (obviously) hates his brother, and never was really saved; and you appear to believe:

Christians still have homosexual sex, but Christians are not under the law. Christians are no longer homosexuals, but saints. Even though a Christian still has homosexual sex, they do not lose their salvation.



I look forward to when we can test for homosexuality genetically.... You believe that all homosexuality is a sin. The Bible doesn't say that in any verse, and it CANNOT be implied.... Whether you want to accept it or not, some people are born homosexual.Hermaphrodites, rare or not. Just picture two together in your mind...homo-sexuals; and then there are repentant homosexuals (the kind you are talking about that still have homosexual sex after being saved, right?).

...and...If the carnal mind is genetic, which it is, and the first cause of homosexuality is the carnal mind, which is logical, then homosexuality is genetic. Falsify that if you can. I expect a genetic marker for that reason, as it merely proves the word of God is true.

Some believe that homosexuality is a choice, but if it is, then all sin is, and then a person can choose to stop sinning.Those same people have other beliefs which conflict with ceasing from sin as a saved person, as though they can't choose to stop. We do have a choice: to remain as our old man, continuing to sin, or walk in the spirit, where we cannot fulfill the lusts of the flesh (cannot sin).

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (cf. 1 John 3:9) Shall not.


I'd be happy to learn that your beliefs have changed since you made these posts.That's good, because the dark alternative would be that you hoped I still held those views that I might look less credible.

I'd be happy if you joined me in God's total opposition to sin, which is the work of the devil Jesus came to destroy...

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


Yes. If they are saved, they remain saved.While agree those who are saved remain saved. The scriptures prove that someone raping a child may say they are in the light, but they are not saved. That would apply at least to any sin against a person, would it not? See 1 John 2:9.


1 Corinthians 5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you[/b], and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.The verse no way implies that person engaged in sexual immorailty is saved. There were wheat and tares in the church at Corinth, and Paul was pissed they didn't expel the tare. A tare is not [yet] saved. Compare that with what Paul says about sinners in 2 Timothy 3:1-5, and it is clear the sinner is not saved if he continues in sin.


6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened.Exactly! Purge out the sin, that you may be and act like a new creature in Christ, because that is what you are.


9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. Exactly! That is my point. If someone says they are in the light, they are named a brother; but if they hate their brother, they are actually in darkness. Paul is saying get rid of those people because they refuse to repent having heard the truth, and take God's name in vain by continuing to rape children and call themselves saved. It's disgusting.

But the sinners of the world are ignorant of the truth, and we have the opportunity to help them hear the truth. If they, too, claim to be saved but continue to sin, they should be rebuked (or arrested), and put out of God's house...like Paul taught.


12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Put away (kick out) the evil person (sinner). That is why the person is called evil. Evil isn't saved.



Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. 1 Timothy 5:19-20

The verse no way proves that a saved person continues to sin, but it does indicate that wheat and tares grow together. Tares aren't saved, and they get thrown into the fire eventually.

Peace, friend.

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 05:46 PM
hi elohiym

I think most people are trying to get busy growing in grace here,
Some are void of understanding, some need us to extend grace to them in the hope that their soul may see eternal salvation.
But first they need to understand that whatever the problem is that there is a grace door even for them.
He has said that this will be around us, why fight it?
I guess Rev 22 17
And the spirit of the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
If they dont come thats that.
Can you rest a little ?

charity

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 06:14 PM
hi elohiym

I think most people are trying to get busy growing in grace here,I believe many are called, but few are chosen (Matt. 22:12), and that Jesus said it would be better to cut off my hand or pluck out my eye than to perish, continuing to sin (Matt. 5:29, et al.)

It appears to me that many of God's sheep were mislead into believing that a Christian continues to sin after they are saved, and they believe that they are growing in grace; but how can one claim to be saved and continue to rape children?



Some are void of understanding, some need us to extend grace to them in the hope that their soul may see eternal salvation.
But first they need to understand that whatever the problem is that there is a grace door even for them.Yes. I am letting them know about the door, even holding it open for them. Like John the baptist, Jesus, Paul, Peter, and John ALL said to stop sinning, and to put out from the church those that refuse to repent.

I hope you believe we have an obligation to rebuke sin where we find it.




He has said that this will be around us, why fight it?Why fight a desire to rape a child? First, I don't believe someone born again has a desire to rape a child. Second, if a child molester thinks he is saved, it would be better for him to think he would go to hell if he lapsed back to raping, not that he can say he's sorry after he crawls off his victim. I bet they're all very sorry, and I could care less...if they aren't being sorry and stopping sinning.


I guess Rev 22 17
And the spirit of the bride say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.
And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.Someone athirst, is someone that desperatley wants to stop sinning and change (repent). The water of life is Christ, and there is no sin in Christ.


If they dont come thats that.Just like fish; but you have to cast your net.


Can you rest a little ?Me? My Father works, so I work too. The harvest is great, but the laborers are few. If we don't weary from welldoing, we will eventually reap.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 06:36 PM
Your either in your sins or out of them, he sepertates your sin from you as far as the east is to the west by grace,
charityAmen, Charity. Amen!

I guessed I misunderstood some of what you were saying in your last post. :o

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
I am both. The choice is sinner or saint, not both. A believer was a sinner, was blind but now he sees.



I have to be, as long as I exist in this earth bound body.No. You don't have to be your old man, and that is why Jesus went to the cross in the likeness of sinful flesh. You can crucify that old man and stick him in the ground, and walk in the spirit and you will not sin.



Can you separate the actions of one from the other?Yes. You can cut off your hand or pluck out your eye like Jesus suggested, or you can accept that what I have told you, and given scriptural support for, is true.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.


The concept of forgiving sin lends itself easily to abuse. The Catholic Church is a prime example; but what I preach would eliminate confession, and there would be few, if any, molesting priests in the confessionals. They are not there because of celebacy, but because they believe they can continue sinning and call themselves saved. It's a license to molest.


Nobody said it was going to be easy.Certainly preaching freedom from sin in Christ is not easy.

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 07:04 PM
Hi elihiym
I understand what you are saying ,
Just the free gift of salvation is to all men,all men have it, that they maybe adopted by god
there is then an eternal salvation that we need to work towards
This is by grace alone
Where the spirit beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of god
And IF children then heirs of god , so we suffer with him, that we May be also glorified together
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,waiting for our adopton to witt the redemption of our body
But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

charity

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 07:12 PM
Hey Stone. I still want to address some of the posts on the spirit thread, but here I am for now. :)


Hi elohyim,
Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful? No. Nothing that can be contrued as sinful by God, and that is all I care about.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God‘s elect? It is God that justifieth.


Can a christian make a ethical mistake based upon wrong understanding/ignorance?No. All things work together for good for believers, so the mistakes are over. We can only know this in faith.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I don't believe a person who is born again will mistakenly rape a child, sleep with their neighbors wife, or become the BTK killer.


Is there a difference between weakness of the flesh and deliberate rejection of God's will?Yes. Weakness of flesh is not a sin, and deliberate rejection of God's will is sin. Weakness of flesh cannot cause sin in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. We are in Christ.

Peace.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 07:18 PM
Stone,

Here's even a better answer to your question...


Do truly saved christians ever do anything that can be construed as sinful?No.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Peace

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 07:22 PM
you said earlier you don't believe Christians can ever lose their salvation. so what do you think happens when a Christian has an abortion or muders someone?A Christian does not have abortions, which is murder. And a Christian does not murder anyone. If someone does those things, they hate their brother, and their is no light in them. In other words, they are not saved, never were.

God_Is_Truth
October 2nd, 2005, 07:27 PM
A Christian does not have abortions, which is murder. And a Christian does not murder anyone. If someone does those things, they hate their brother, and their is no light in them. In other words, they are not saved, never were.

so David was not a follower of God when he murdered bathshebas husband, nor was he ever before?

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 07:47 PM
so David was not a follower of God when he murdered bathshebas husband, nor was he ever before?

Yes David had the spirt of God at his anointing, and was surly set for an example of Gods grace.
Inclline your ear, and come unto me; hear and your soul shall live; and i will make an everlasting covernant with you, even the sure mercies of David,

If theres any children veiwing please dont try this, we do not sugest murder
If God has washed our robes and we get them soiled again, then so it be

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 08:00 PM
so David was not a follower of God when he murdered bathshebas husband, nor was he ever before?David was not following God when he stole another man's wife and murdered him, no. His actions were a violation of the law. He received grace, which is why he was not put to death as the law required. God put away his sin, and David sinned no more.

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 08:01 PM
Yes David had the spirt of God at his anointing, and was surly set for an example of Gods grace.
Inclline your ear, and come unto me; hear and your soul shall live; and i will make an everlasting covernant with you, even the sure mercies of David,

If theres any children veiwing please dont try this, we do not sugest murder
If God has washed our robes and we get them soiled again, then so it be



I think our robes are supposed to be stain resistant. :chuckle:

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 08:12 PM
koban

Yep they sure are if you are seperated from your sins, not if you cant seperate sin from yourself by grace.
charity

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 08:18 PM
koban

Yep they sure are if you are seperated from your sins, not if you cant seperate sin from yourself by grace.
charity


:thumb:

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 08:27 PM
:wave: :
:thumb:

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 08:42 PM
:emarie:

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 08:56 PM
Stone,

Here's even a better answer to your question...

No.

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Peace

Elohiym I think you are saying our actions cannot be called sinful because of Christ's sacrifice. Correct?

elected4ever
October 2nd, 2005, 09:07 PM
believe it or not your flesh was not a sinner before salvation. It is just plain dead. The law killed it as soon as it was judged by law. The scripture says the soul that sinneth shall die. When we die it is the soul that stands before God on judgment day, not the flesh. A soul that is without Christ is dead or separated from God and will be judged on Judgment day. We must receive new life by the new birth while in this life. That life is God's life imparted to us from God and is incapable of sin. No born again Christian sins It is an utter impossibility.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 09:12 PM
Thank you, :e4e:. :thumb:

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 09:13 PM
believe it or not your flesh was not a sinner before salvation. It is just plain dead. The law killed it as soon as it was judged by law. The scripture says the soul that sinneth shall die. When we die it is the soul that stands before God on judgment day, not the flesh. A soul that is without Christ is dead or separated from God and will be judged on Judgment day. We must receive new life by the new birth while in this life. That life is God's life imparted to us from God and is incapable of sin. No born again Christian sins It is an utter impossibility.
Hi e4e,
If I understand correctly you are saying that wrong actions are of the old man, but a believer's identity is in Christ (not the old man) where there cannot be sin, for sin is not of christ. Correct?

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 09:17 PM
Elohiym I think you are saying our actions cannot be called sinful because of Christ's sacrifice. Correct?That's not what I'm saying.

If our actions are rape, murder, theft, or any other action that God considers hate towards our brother, we are not saved. If the motive of our actions is love (from God's perspective), there is no law against love. All things are lawful in that sense. If we have the spirit of Christ, we have the spirit of love, and we fulfill the law, always.

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 09:24 PM
Elohiym could you give an example of what you consider weakness of the flesh (which is not a sin)?

SOTK
October 2nd, 2005, 09:25 PM
believe it or not your flesh was not a sinner before salvation. It is just plain dead. The law killed it as soon as it was judged by law. The scripture says the soul that sinneth shall die. When we die it is the soul that stands before God on judgment day, not the flesh. A soul that is without Christ is dead or separated from God and will be judged on Judgment day. We must receive new life by the new birth while in this life. That life is God's life imparted to us from God and is incapable of sin. No born again Christian sins It is an utter impossibility.

:thumb:

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 09:27 PM
That's not what I'm saying.

If our actions are rape, murder, theft, or any other action that God considers hate towards our brother, we are not saved. If the motive of our actions is love (from God's perspective), there is no law against love. All things are lawful in that sense. If we have the spirit of Christ, we have the spirit of love, and we fulfill the law, always.
Now that is different topic than rom 8:33 and Heb 8:12 of which we were speaking.
However the point you are making here is scriptural.

elected4ever
October 2nd, 2005, 10:01 PM
Hi e4e,
If I understand correctly you are saying that wrong actions are of the old man, but a believer's identity is in Christ (not the old man) where there cannot be sin, for sin is not of Christ. Correct?That is correct. If after we are saved we find our identity in the old man that we despise then we will act according to the old man. We do not live victorious according to the new man. We will continually live in a constant state of fear and pay more attention to ourselves and not others. Not only that, we have a hard time dealing with our failure and lose our confidence and joy. We cannot deni that we know what sin is and when we fail to live according to the expectations that is our true character many just give up thinking we just cannot live to the expectations that we expect of ourselves. We judge ourselves by the law and we continually fail so we think that we are sinners when we are not. We have been set free from the law.

dRock
October 2nd, 2005, 10:14 PM
Has anyone noticed how off topic this has gotten?

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 10:16 PM
I forget - what was the topic?


:spam: ???

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 10:21 PM
Hey Stone. I still want to address some of the posts on the spirit thread, but here I am for now. :)

No. Nothing that can be contrued as sinful by God, and that is all I care about.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God‘s elect? It is God that justifieth.

No. All things work together for good for believers, so the mistakes are over. We can only know this in faith.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I don't believe a person who is born again will mistakenly rape a child, sleep with their neighbors wife, or become the BTK killer.

Yes. Weakness of flesh is not a sin, and deliberate rejection of God's will is sin. Weakness of flesh cannot cause sin in Christ. There is no sin in Christ. We are in Christ.

Peace.
Was it "good" for Peter to side with those of the circumcision in not walking uprightly according to the truth of the Gospel even though God showed Peter His Will?
When Paul says Peter was to be blamed did he mean blamed for "good" things?

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 10:21 PM
Elohiym could you give an example of what you consider weakness of the flesh (which is not a sin)?I'll give you an example from the Bible...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Galations 2:11-15

Peter was taken in a fault (not sin), and Paul restored him in the spirit of meekness. Paul emphasizes that we (he, peter, and the others) are not sinners.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 10:23 PM
I see we were thinking about the same verses, Stone. :) You have my answer.

dRock
October 2nd, 2005, 10:26 PM
no man, :spam: is my sig...click it.

koban
October 2nd, 2005, 10:36 PM
Why - it's a whole thread built around :spam:

What a novel idea! :chuckle:

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 10:42 PM
I'll give you an example from the Bible...

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Galations 2:11-15

Peter was taken in a fault (not sin), and Paul restored him in the spirit of meekness. Paul emphasizes that we (he, peter, and the others) are not sinners.
Yes minds thinking alike (Don't let the metaphysic's guy know about this thread).

Weakness of the flesh specifically is a bit different, but your example shows weakness none the less.
Peter knew better but was weak in confidence tward the truth he knew.
Remember Moses struck the rock and was banned from the promised land after serving God faithfully and knowing Him face to face.
True peter was at fault, but it was also contrary to God's Will given directly to him. How is this example or Moses' not sinful?

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:02 PM
Weakness of the flesh specificall is a bit different, but your example shows weakness none the less.
Peter knew better but was weak in confidence of the truth he knew.
Remember Moses struck the rock and was banned from the promised land after serving God faithfully and knowing Him face to face.
True he was at fault, but it was contrary to God's Will given directly to him. How is this example or Moses' not sinful?Moses did sin. It was not a fault.

Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Dueteronomy 32:51,52

Moses had to make a blood atonement for that sin, and God made an example of Moses to edify Israel.

I see a big difference between what Moses did under a blood covenant that required obedience to the letter of the law, and what Peter did under grace because he didn't want to offend one group of bretheren by remaining with another group of bretheren.

Paul seemed to have no problem blending into different groups that may have not got along with each other...

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


Now, if Peter was attempting the same thing, but screwed up while doing, his motivation could have been love. Why was he eating with the Gentiles in the first place, if he didn't love them? Why did he switch to the Jews, if he didn't love them?

Do you see the difference?

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 11:14 PM
Moses did sin. It was not a fault.

Because ye trespassed against me among the children of Israel at the waters of Meribah-Kadesh, in the wilderness of Zin; because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel. Yet thou shalt see the land before thee; but thou shalt not go thither unto the land which I give the children of Israel. Dueteronomy 32:51,52

Moses had to make a blood atonement for that sin, and God made an example of Moses to edify Israel.

I see a big difference between what Moses did under a blood covenant that required obedience to the letter of the law, and what Peter did under grace because he didn't want to offend one group of bretheren by remaining with another group of bretheren.

Paul seemed to have no problem blending into different groups that may have not got along with each other...

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


Now, if Peter was attempting the same thing, but screwed up while doing, his motivation could have been love. Why was he eating with the Gentiles in the first place, if he didn't love them? Why did he switch to the Jews, if he didn't love them?

Do you see the difference?
Yes, I believe you are correct.

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 11:23 PM
However the scriptures do reveal Peter feared them of the circumcision.
Also, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." "And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
This does not come accross as the spirit of meekness.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:36 PM
However the scriptures do reveal Peter feared them of the circumcision.
Also, "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." "And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
This does not come accross as the spirit of meekness.Paul restored Peter in the spirit of meekness. Paul was being meek, not Peter.

Nothing in those verses uses the word sin, or even describes an act you can label as sin according to the law. Moses actions were a clear sin, as God called his actions a trespass.

Shouldn't we focus on verses like "whoever sins is a servant of sin" and "whoever sins is of the devil." How do explain those verses? How can somone sin and not be a servant of sin? How can someone sin and not be of the devil? What does "go and sin no more" mean? What does "awake to righteousness and sin not" mean? What does it mean to arm yourself woth the mind of Christ and "cease from sin" mean?

I have provided dozens of verses now to support my position, yet none of those verses have been refuted by anyone. Most have simply been ignored (I'm not saying you are ignoring them, but others have). Any thoughts on the verses I have offered.

My time is getting short here, as I have other responsibilities, as much as I am enjoying sharing the word with friends.

Peace

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 11:39 PM
Further...
"It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Was this carnality sin? Is not pride also sin?
How is it that this man if he were sinning (and hence never was saved as you said) would be saved?

Charity
October 2nd, 2005, 11:40 PM
Hi elohiym
The bottom line seems to be that you may think you have salvation by strengthening the flesh to deal with the flesh,
all of us have fallen short of deserving his grace, and if you think you are worthy then you will demand that all others be as you and shape up to standard.
And then you can tell God himself that you didnt need christ to come.

STONE
October 2nd, 2005, 11:46 PM
Moses actions were a clear sin, as God called his actions a trespass.

I have provided dozens of verses now to support my position, yet none of those verses have been refuted by anyone. Most have simply been ignored (I'm not saying you are ignoring them, but others have). Any thoughts on the verses I have offered.

I have to go also, though I might have some thoughts on the verses you offered. I will get back to you on that.

Yes the Lord said what moses did was a tresspass. Are you aware of which ordinance specifically Moses transgressed?

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:48 PM
Hi elohiym
The bottom line seems to be that you may think you have salvation by strengthening the flesh to deal with the flesh,
all of us have fallen short of deserving his grace, and if you think you are worthy then you will demand that all others be as you and shape up to standard.
And then you can tell God himself that you didnt need christ to come.Could you reword that Charity, as it is confusing to me? It's getting late. Thanks.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:52 PM
I have to go also, though I might have some thoughts on the verses you offered. I will get back to you on that.

Yes the Lord said it was a tresspass. Are you aware which ordinance specifically Moses transgressed?God said speak to the rock. You can find the statement in the book of the law. God's spoken word operates like law.

elohiym
October 2nd, 2005, 11:57 PM
Further...
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." The person in question is not saved. He may have been attending the church at Corinth, but he was a tare among the wheat. Like Paul stated to Timothy, turn away from those people. They heard the truth, yet they refused to repent from their sin. Not saved, and never was. The question is always, will they be eventually?


Was this carnality sin? Is not pride also sin?
How is it that this man if he were sinning (and hence never was saved as you said) would be saved?I think I answered that above. Let me know if it's not clear.

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 12:17 AM
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jesus was making a point about how to stop sinning, and the importance of ceasing from sin by faith. He wants us to "pluck" out the eye that let's us see ourselves as a sinner. If not, he really is telling us to pluck out our eye.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Please let Jesus take away your sin forever right now. If you become blind to Satan's lie that you still sin in Christ, you will have no sin according to Jesus.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Whoever sins is a servant of sin. WHO will YOU serve. Choose today!

koban
October 3rd, 2005, 12:22 AM
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jesus was making a point about how to stop sinning, and the importance of ceasing from sin by faith. He wants us to "pluck" out the eye that let's us see ourselves as a sinner. If not, he really is telling us to pluck out our eye.



Interesting exegesis.

Do you think there's any signifigance to the fact that he specifies the right eye?

Can I offend myself with my left eye with impunity? :think:

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 12:35 AM
Interesting exegesis.

Do you think there's any signifigance to the fact that he specifies the right eye?It may be something cultural, like the right eye being considered the "good" eye, the one that is supposed to be able to discern. I'm not syaing that was the actual way they viewed it. Mine was just a made up example.

Obviously both eyes "offended" unless they were already missing an eye, or looked at things with one eye shut. :dizzy: So the choice right eye was on purpose.

Here is another verse that ties into those well...

Isaiah 42:19 Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD’S servant?

He wants us to be blind like he was. We are his servant, if we are in Christ. Who is blind like his servant? Are you blind yet?


Can I offend myself with my left eye with impunity? :think:The evil eye? No way. :)

koban
October 3rd, 2005, 12:36 AM
:thumb: :chuckle:

STONE
October 3rd, 2005, 08:00 AM
The person in question is not saved. He may have been attending the church at Corinth, but he was a tare among the wheat. Like Paul stated to Timothy, turn away from those people. They heard the truth, yet they refused to repent from their sin. Not saved, and never was. The question is always, will they be eventually?

I think I answered that above. Let me know if it's not clear.
The question was how is it that this man would have his flesh destroyed by satan and yet his spirit be saved in the 'Day of the Lord'.
Why not simply cast him out from amoung them?

STONE
October 3rd, 2005, 08:07 AM
God said speak to the rock. You can find the statement in the book of the law. God's spoken word operates like law.
Correct.
And Peter through fear (not love) as the text says did not honor the Gospel or the revelation and Words of God given directly to him.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Still not a sin?

STONE
October 3rd, 2005, 08:18 AM
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Jesus was making a point about how to stop sinning, and the importance of ceasing from sin by faith. He wants us to "pluck" out the eye that let's us see ourselves as a sinner. If not, he really is telling us to pluck out our eye.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Please let Jesus take away your sin forever right now. If you become blind to Satan's lie that you still sin in Christ, you will have no sin according to Jesus.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Whoever sins is a servant of sin. WHO will YOU serve. Choose today!
I walk in victory over sin, or rather the Lord Jesus in me, but that was not always so.
There is clear scriptural teaching, definitely in 1 John and others, of what you are saying however you are establishing Law and forgetting Grace.

I will discuss this more with you.

STONE
October 3rd, 2005, 09:03 AM
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Above is the principle clearly illustrated which we can build upon. Either John has very poor grammar, or he was talking about and to believers.

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
Who is John writing to here? The answer is plain...all doubt is removed by these passages.
Please see post 113 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=891450&postcount=113) for clarification:

death2impiety
October 3rd, 2005, 10:07 AM
I know it's OT but..

Ecclesiastes 7:20
For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

I'm really not so sure what to believe here. I know that I have faith in Christ. I know what He has done and I have accepted His gift of salvation. As I go about my days I keep myself from sin. I turn away and pray to God for strength to follow only Him and to have control over temptation.

I fight with sin in my mind. I feel like I am part of a war that is constantly being waged and I find that when I pray the temptation is alleviated. According to scripture the temptation itself is sinful. Sin manifests itself in ever aspect of existance. It doesn't seem that keeping from it 100% is entirely possible. In your life at some point there will be a moment where it occurs, there will be an instance when a sinful thought pops into your mind. At that point would you say you lose your salvation?

Does sin negate what Christ did for us or did Christ negate what sin does to us?

I'm just trying to get a handle on the righteous way of life. It isn't preposterous to me, I'm just having trouble believing absolute human righteousness is at all possible. It was mentioned that Christ lived in the flesh but did not submit to sin. Are you saying that we are to live as gods? Can we resist temptation as did the Son of God? Have we the power of the almighty? Hhmph...this is seemingly bordering on blasphemy. I don't know I'm confused :liberals:

Also, getting back to the point about the homo that was made earlier in this thread. If a homo admits wrongdoing and is has honest guilt in his/her heart for the sin they commit. Is that enough to be redeemed? The ARS (Absolute Righteousness Supporters) around here seem to believe that belief, faith and repentance aren't enough.

Job 33:12
“Look, in this you are not righteous.I will answer you, For God is greater than man.

Its OT again but did something change? Is man able to be as God????

But then I see this

Ezekiel 18:24
“But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.


Matthew 7:20-28
20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

I always pictured these folks as the "Christians" around me who publicly sin and are proud of it. False Christians who support homosexuality and abortion.

Juxtapose these next two and it seems that man can be righteous.

Luke 2:25
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


I just reread the second verse and saw that I read it wrong originally. Now it appears to support the SIS (sinning in salvation) side of it...

I'd love some input from both sides. I remain undecided on this matter. Consider me confused :confused:

death2impiety
October 3rd, 2005, 10:38 AM
Romans context


4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 11:28 AM
The question was how is it that this man would have his flesh destroyed by satan and yet his spirit be saved in the 'Day of the Lord'. The same way we do. In the way several us us have been attempting to explain, by becoming dead to the law and sin.

If I am in your church, and you see me sinning, and I will not repent, I expect you to kick me out of your church. Deliver me to Satan, so he can destroy my flesh (so I can die to self, hopefully), then I will have a chance to let grace work.


Why not simply cast him out from amoung them?That is what he is telling them to do. Here is how he puts it to Timothy:

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Turn away from those who claim to be saved, yet continue to sin. For example, turn away from child molesting priests--kick them out of your fellowship, because righteousness has no fellowship with unrighteousness.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 11:48 AM
Correct.
And Peter through fear (not love) as the text says did not honor the Gospel or the revelation and Words of God given directly to him.
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Still not a sin?Let's assume, fo the sake of argument, that Peter did sin in that instant. Do you know when Peter was converted (saved)? We know for sure that he was not converted yet when the Lord was crucified. We know that because Jesus tells Peter he is not saved yet at the last supper...

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And so there is no confusion about whether converted means saved...

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

So at least at the time of the last supper, we can say with certainty that Peter was not saved, even though he believe Jesus was the son of God.

Why wasn't Peter saved at that time? Because he still believed he sinned! Yes. Read...

Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. John 13:9,10


In Christ, we are clean every wit (sinless), but if we don't believe that, we are still not saved.

So perhaps Peter was still not saved at that point. He may have still been working out his salvation; and if one is still working out their salvation, logically, they haven't worked it out yet, and are not yet saved.

I dislike situational ethics in light of verses that state: "whoever sins is a servant of sin" and "whoever sins is of the devil" and ALL the other verses I supplied that prove without ambiguity that someone saved does not and cannot sin.

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 11:59 AM
I walk in victory over sin, or rather the Lord Jesus in me, but that was not always so. If you walk in victory over sin, then you do not sin. If you sin, and claim to walk in victory, then you do not know the truth. That is what the Bible teaches without ambiguity.

Whoever sins is a servant of sin.


There is clear scriptural teaching, definitely in 1 John and others, of what you are saying however you are establishing Law and forgetting Grace. How so? Doesn't Paul say we establish the law?

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

How am I forgetting grace? What I am preaching is 100% grace.

Some who calims a person can be saved while continuing to sin is preaching 100% law, and they have created some imaginary loophole in the law that allows them to claim to be righteous while they murder, rape, and steal their neighbor's wife. That is the epitomy of legalism, which has been what I have said for a couple of years now on these forums.

elohiym
October 3rd, 2005, 12:10 PM
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Above is the principle clearly illustrated which we can build upon. Either John has very poor grammar, or he was talking about and to believers.There is another option. Some people are misinterpretating John's meaning.

We have sin dwelling in our flesh, and will until our mortal bodies are redeemed. That is consistent with what John stated.

John also stated: "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." 1 John 3:8

He doesn't state that Christians who commit sin are NOT of the devil. A Christian cannot be of the devil. Someone of the devil is NEVER saved.


"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"
Who is John writing to here? The answer is plain...all doubt is removed by these passages.

He writes that we sin not, so does he expect us to sin or cease from sin? Is he asking us to do something that we cannot claim to have done.

"Go and sin no more." I can't, because John wrote I'd be a liar if I said I finally stopped sinning.
"Awake to righteousness and sin not." I can't, because John wrote I'd be a liar if I said I finally stopped sinning.
"Arm yourselves with the same mind...cease from sin." I can't, because John wrote I'd be a liar if I said I finally stopped sinning.
"Whoever sins is a servant of sin." Not me, because John wrote I'd be a liar if I said I finally stopped sinning.

Obviously John's words are being misinterpreted.

God_Is_Truth
October 3rd, 2005, 01:15 PM
David was not following God when he stole another man's wife and murdered him, no. His actions were a violation of the law. He received grace, which is why he was not put to death as the law required. God put away his sin, and David sinned no more.

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

was he saved before he did that? he was called a man after God's own heart right? that was why he was chosen, and yet he still gave into sin after following God for a long time.