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AVmetro
May 27th, 2002, 02:56 PM
A good subject to debate is the reality of a conscious eternal place of punishment for the wicked. That place being, of course, 'The lake of fire', a place which Jesus used Gehenna as an analogy for.
I've noticed many to think of 'Hell' in Dante-esque terms which is very false. I've also noticed many believe 'hell' to not exist. False as well.

Anyone want to jump in,(this forum, not hell :) ) go ahead, but first explain your position on the biblical explanation of 'hell' as we don't want to argue in circles only to find that we agree/disagree on the same points.

2002 Christian
May 27th, 2002, 04:00 PM
Jesus still isn't suffering from His death upon the cross, is He?

"Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens." Is that fire still burning them? "They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." "...burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly."

AVmetro
May 27th, 2002, 04:31 PM
>>>Jesus still isn't suffering from His death upon the cross, is He? <<<

No, His resurrection unleashed Him from the imprisionment of death and punishment. All who are not IN Christ, however, is a different story. They are outside of that resurrection and will remain behind in "death".

A question one needs to ask - 'Does the death of a man, aquit him from his own sins?

cirisme
May 27th, 2002, 06:24 PM
This was well covered in this thread (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2174). Especially so at about the 3rd page and on, but I guess that's when I came in on the discussion. ;)

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 06:26 AM
The fire that cannot be put out is God's love (Song of Solomon 8:6-7). It is the righteous who dwell in the everlasting burnings.

God's presence is a purifying fire for those who receive it (progressively) by faith. It is a consuming fire for the lost.

The idea of eternal conscious torment is satanic in character. It has NOTHING to do with God (who is love).

Tony

geralduk
May 28th, 2002, 07:55 AM
HEAVEN would be hell for a sinner.

But be that as it may the story of the rich man and the pauper is worth agood look at.
as the \Lord said "there WAS a man"
Not like unto...
The weeping is for sorrow
The wailing is despair
The grinding of teath is HATRED AND FRUSTRATION

Melody
May 28th, 2002, 08:49 AM
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1Cr 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

1Ti 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.

Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 08:59 AM
There are some good points thus far. However I have to disagree with you O2bwise, on this...

>>>The idea of eternal conscious torment is satanic in character. It has NOTHING to do with God (who is love). <<<

Actually "Hell" is a necessity in accordance with God's nature. In no way does 'Hell' take away the aspect of God's eternal love.

I have an extremely short doctrine of 'Hell' mapped out in a NWT bible that I will have to find. When I get it I will share some reasons as to why 'hell' must exist.

God bless...

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 09:23 AM
Hi AV,

I'll be interested in noting how eventual anihilation (ceasing to exist) cannot possibly be considered more "just" than the endless perpetuation of sin, sinners, and pain.

I am also curious how Christ satisfied justice during a time period that was finite while it is just for the lost to spend eternity in conscious torment.

Take Care...

Tony (o2)

cirisme
May 28th, 2002, 09:49 AM
o2bwise, I see that you're arguing just to be arguing again. Doesn't that get old?

admiral_d
May 28th, 2002, 10:09 AM
What is hell?

We pretty much agree that it is a place where "bad" people burn....The question is -do beings burn forever and ever continually, or is there a time when they just burn up and cease to exist....

We try to coax these arguement in the nature of God and in His Justice..Some say that it is God's nature to burn these people forever and it is within His justice system...

My question is that this tends to reflect upon the Character of God. If God will draw all men to Jesus due to His love, then how does this draw people to God? I can only conclude that it is from fear and I question that this is a good motive to draw people to God. Beside this, James says that there is not a shadow , or variance in God...IOWs, God is costant. There is no change in Him. If what IJohn 4 says about God and Love is true, then God truely is love in His behavior, seeking the best for all...

But now we have this connundrum...Eternal torturing with a Loving God or Annihilation with a Loving God...

In the final battle found in Revelation 20:10-11, it talks about a lake of fire and brimstone and the devil is thrown into it...It also says that ..." There was no place found for them"....If there is no place found for this eternal hell, then truely, hell is a short lived place, ...a place where annihilation occurs..

CS Lewis, in his trilogy, shows that evil doesn't kill...it maims...it delights in torture, and pain and suffering...If God is a god of torture, then He is evil....

It would be better for those who choose not Love and God to cease to exist than to continue in thier torment forever....

Just my opinion...

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 11:02 AM
Hi cirisme,

o2bwise, I see that you're arguing just to be arguing again. Doesn't that get old?

Are you presuming? Or did you get a vision, or something?

Personally, I think your assertion that you explained God's justice (in the other thread) was erroneous. I don't think it proved much of anything at all. In saying this (and realizing YOU believe it was proof), I am content that you may think I am "reasoning-impaired." I think the same of you.

That's cool.

However, it is underhanded of you to assign MOTIVE because you don't know it in the first place.

It is far worse to speak of God as purposing eternal conscious torment for the lost than it is to accuse me of putting cigarette burns in my daughters for being naughty.

Infinitely worse.

I am sure you can come up with better motives than you assert.

Such as: I have God's character to defend as I believe it is being demonized.

Tony (o2)

cirisme
May 28th, 2002, 11:37 AM
However, it is underhanded of you to assign MOTIVE because you don't know it in the first place.

Perhaps I assumed motive because you didn't reply. I asked you to show me where I was wrong in my posts. You haven't. I asked you not to reply if you just ignore my posts, I am glad that you haven't replied because you still have the same basic arguement.


It is far worse to speak of God as purposing eternal conscious torment for the lost than it is to accuse me of putting cigarette burns in my daughters for being naughty.

I've already covered it several times in the previous thread. (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2174&perpage=15&pagenumber=1) I have already explained that away, but you have been unable to challenge my arguements, so you continue with your old ones. If that's not arguing just to argue, I guess it's ego.

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 11:58 AM
I still have to get hold of that NWT for the doctrine.

As of now though, I am going to clear up a misconception:

GOD DOES NOT TORTURE PEOPLE IN HELL.

People walk to hell of their own accord. God offers salvation from hell for free.

As C.S. Lewis put it somewhat " the door to hell is locked from the inside....'

Eireann
May 28th, 2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by admiral_d
What is hell?

We pretty much agree that it is a place where "bad" people burn....The question is -do beings burn forever and ever continually, or is there a time when they just burn up and cease to exist....

The idea that hell is a place of burning is, as AVMetro pointed out, very Dante-esque. And the idea that it is a place of eternal torture and torment is very Milton-esque. The Christian idea of hell is built, I think, primarily on four models -- Dante, Milton, the Jewish sheol, and the Greek realm of Hades. The only one of these that purports hell to be a "lake of fire" is Dante, who probably literalized an otherwise symbolic biblicalism of hell. Hades contains, among others, the river Phlegathon, which is a river of fire, which probably also contributes somewhat to that idea.

I don't pretend to know if there is such a place or not, or what its nature may be. Is it a place of physical torture, mental torment, or spiritual aloneness? Is it a place that exists in the mind of the soul (if the soul has a mind) or in reality? I don't know.

Just a curiosity -- since most of Christianity's other-cultural borrowings are from Greek and Middle Eastern influences, then how did the use of the word "hell" for one of its afterlives come about, since hell is named after a NORSE goddess of the underworld?

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 01:01 PM
cirisme,

In the other thread, I haven't a clue as to your argument in support.

So, I don't even know how to address it.

Tell ya what...consider doing like Philosophy 101.

Like this:

Premise a
Premise b
Premise c
THEREFORE (conclusion)

Maybe that would help me.

I'd relax on the assigning motive part, especially as I told you what I believe my motive is.

Take Care, Bud...

Tony

cirisme
May 28th, 2002, 02:27 PM
I've done essentially this before, but I'll do it in the fewest words possible.

A. We can either be with God or without.
B. Our actions determine A. We do something he asked us not to, we get seperated from Him.
C. If B makes A without God, and our life ends; we live forever with out Him in hell.
D. If we don't die without Him(ie with Christ), we spend forever with Him in heaven.

THEREFORE,
E. Heaven is about total closeness with God.
F. Hell is total seperation from God.
G. If we die seperated from God, we goto hell.
H. If we die with God, we goto heaven.

FUTHERMORE,
I. Because of Adam H is impossible. So all will G.
J. God didn't like G, so He sent His Son to fix it.
K. If we accept His free gift, we will H.

My entire arguement is in A-D. E-H is the conclusion based on A-D and I-K is how it gets fixed.

Simple, no?

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 02:38 PM
>>>I'll be interested in noting how eventual anihilation (ceasing to exist) cannot possibly be considered more "just" than the endless perpetuation of sin, sinners, and pain. <<<

I believe I read someone say before:
In order to satisfy justice, there must be punishment. In order for there to be punishment there must be suffering. In order to have suffering one must be concious.

Here is how it is:
A man is not aquitted for his sins by his death. Otherwise we would not be punished for the sin of Adam. Also read: "...punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,....Ex20:4
A man's death does not aquit him of the sin. God remembers that sin for eternity. There is only one way in order to atone for sin as it is written: "..because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." Heb10:3 Therefore that atonement is fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
Read: "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just." Deut32:4
"God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in ordere that the righteous REQUIRMENTS of the law might be fully MET in us,...." Rom8:3-4
God's nature of justice demands a requirment to be paid for sin. If Jesus, the only atonement, is not accepted, then the sin eternally remains and must be eternally punished. Punishment which one must be concious of in order to classify it as punishment.

I have a lot more on this if I could only find that darn NWT....;)

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 03:20 PM
Sorry cirisme,

I see in your post NO justification for eternal conscious torment. I see that you believe that SINCE God provided man with a choice to NOT choose hell and since some freely choose hell, eternal conscious torment is just.

I simply do not see that, one iota.

Reasoning disconnect, I suppose.

Oh Well...

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 03:25 PM
Hi AV,

There are two exceedingly fundamental points of disagreement.

God's nature of justice demands a requirment to be paid for sin.

I do not see this in the way you do. I see the penalty for sin as emanating FROM sin and not FROM God. It is like the symptoms innate to (say) a disease than it is the effect of the electric chair.

Sin condemns because of what sin is and not because of who God is.

If Jesus, the only atonement, is not accepted, then the sin eternally remains and must be eternally punished. Punishment which one must be concious of in order to classify it as punishment.

Regardless, you mention sin ETERNALLY REMAINING. That is interesting. It's like a vicious circle. Sin resides in one place, in the consciousness of sinners. The only way sin can eternally remain is if the sinner lives eternally. If the sinner were to cease to exist, the sin would cease to exist as well.

As an example, if a man were a murderer, should that man no longer exist, the evil that is his would no longer exist either.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 04:28 PM
>>>Regardless, you mention sin ETERNALLY REMAINING. That is interesting. It's like a vicious circle. Sin resides in one place, in the consciousness of sinners. The only way sin can eternally remain is if the sinner lives eternally. If the sinner were to cease to exist, the sin would cease to exist as well. <<<

Rather, the sin itself remains eternally within God's memory as going unpunished. God's justice demands punishment for sin. If sin can only be taken away by Jesus then a sin otherwise remains for eternity. Therefore that sin must be punished eternally because it was never atoned for.
See kinda what I'm saying?......As I have shown, sin is not aquitted with the death of the sinner.

Rather only through Christ.."Now if we died WITH Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since christ was raised from the dead, he CANNOT die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin ONCE FOR ALL; but the lif he lives, he lives to God. Rom6:8-10

God bless you...;)

o2bwise
May 28th, 2002, 04:41 PM
Hi AV,

Rather, the sin itself remains eternally within God's memory as going unpunished. God's justice demands punishment for sin. If sin can only be taken away by Jesus then a sin otherwise remains for eternity. Therefore that sin must be punished eternally because it was never atoned for.

So...your definition of the term "sin itself remains eternally within God's memory" is equivalent to "than a sin otherwise remains for eternity?"

That is not rational, AV. I remember my daughter as a three year old. That is part of my memory. However, my three year old daughter does not "remain."


See kinda what I'm saying?......As I have shown, sin is not aquitted with the death of the sinner.

I see it, but it makes no sense to me.

Furthermore, sin is never acquitted. Guilty parties are acquitted, but not their sin. The idea of sin itself being acquitted is nonsensical to me.

God Bless Ya,

Tony (o2)

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 04:50 PM
Hey o2,

>>>That is not rational, AV. I remember my daughter as a three year old. That is part of my memory. However, my three year old daughter does not "remain." <<<

This isn't quite the analogy to use in this case. Your three year daughter changes with progression, a sin does not.
More comparable is a murderer. Even if he murdered someone fifty years ago, he is to be jailed if he were caught today.
A sin must go punished once committed.

God bless...

cirisme
May 28th, 2002, 08:49 PM
I see in your post NO justification for eternal conscious torment.

I've told you so many times now: it has little to do with justice. It has everything to do with seperation from God. You deaf by choice... all you are interested in is arguing.

Good luck, AVmetro, hopefully you can convince him to stop arguing and listen.

AVmetro
May 28th, 2002, 08:56 PM
Hey o2,

Where is your problem with "Hell" stemming from? Is it from particular scriptures or from a potential problem you may have with seeing God's nature?
This will help me know how to approach the subject.
Please understand that "Hell" in no wise takes away from the great love that is in God. :)

God bless you...

o2bwise
May 29th, 2002, 06:50 AM
I ADVISE YOU TO STOP JUDGING ME. STOP PRESUMING MOTIVE.

I've told you so many times now: it has little to do with justice. It has everything to do with seperation from God. You deaf by choice... all you are interested in is arguing.

Good luck, AVmetro, hopefully you can convince him to stop arguing and listen.

SO WHAT IF THEY ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD!!! WHY DO THEY HAVE TO REMAIN ALIVE FOREVER? ESPECIALLY SINCE IT HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH JUSTICE?

You are presuming and you are presuming WRONG. You need to go to God and get your heart right about this. This is ridiculous.

o2bwise
May 29th, 2002, 06:54 AM
Hi AV,

Where is your problem with "Hell" stemming from?

Foremost, the position that the lost experience eternal conscious torment is UNBIBLICAL.

Is it from particular scriptures or from a potential problem you may have with seeing God's nature?

I don't think my discernment as to what is truth on the matter is due to a potential problem I have with seeing God's nature.

This will help me know how to approach the subject.

I just hope we can all be teachable.

Please understand that "Hell" in no wise takes away from the great love that is in God.

I don't think I can understand that, but since I believe the view is false anyway, I don't think it is understandable.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

o2bwise
May 29th, 2002, 06:56 AM
A sin must go punished once committed.

The punishment stems from sin and not from God.

Do you understand that, AV?

wickwoman
May 29th, 2002, 10:31 AM
I believe the story of the rich man and the poor man in the after life points to a justice system set up by God that some call karma. God does not have to administer the punishment any more than God has to maintain the earth on its axis. He created a self sufficient system in every way and it is built to maintain itself as long as needed.

In the case of wrongs committed against other human beings, karma (or Biblically an eye for an eye) takes care of the just and appropriate "righting" of that wrong. In the case of the rich man and the poor man in the afterlife found in the Bible, notice the rich man suffers the same needs that he caused the poor man to endure while alive. The rich man has traded places with the poor man and now it is he who is desiring a drink of water instead of the poor man.

The scripture that says it is God's desire that none should perish points to the idea that - none will. How could it be that God's will would not be done? Also, when Jesus says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me" is another example. Notice he said ALL. This is evidence that all of us will pay our karmic debts and eventually be together with God in eternity.

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 11:24 AM
You are presuming and you are presuming WRONG. You need to go to God and get your heart right about this. This is ridiculous.

If you feel so strongly, you must have evidence for it. Show it to me... I've shown mine, now show yours.

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 11:26 AM
We've presented arguements, reason, and evidence for our view. Now show yours... you can't just keep saying the same thing over and over again without showing us why.

o2bwise
May 29th, 2002, 11:55 AM
Cirisme,

Evidence #1 (and this one I came to on my own):
There are several texts in the Bible, the OT mainly, which are rendered as FOREVER in the English. Of these texts, many are obviously referring to periods of FINITE TIME DURATION.

Now, the word rendered as forever in the NT is AION or some other form of it.

If you grab an LXX (Septuagint), which is a Greek OT and was used around the times of Christ, you can do a word search on AION to see its uses.

What you will find is that it is the word the Greek translators chose to use for those texts which described events of finite time duration.


Conclusion:
EVERY text that has the word AION in it, cannot be taken to mean infinite time (eternity) ON THAT BASIS.

The word is neutral. It is dependent on the nature of the surrounding text, much like the word ALWAYS.

This means that what has been the most forceful support for the idea of eternal conscious torment IS NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER.


If I couple that with just one more thought...
Every view is such that there are texts which SEEM to support a contrasting view. Free will verses staunch Calvinism. Sabbath versus Sunday versus any day, to name a couple.

If one really wants to know the truth, what one ought to do is read the Bible in its entirety and reference EVERY text that seems to talk about the topic in question.

And just line them up.

Now, when one realizes that texts with AION do not require eternal conscious torment, on that basis, and just does a rigorous accounting of all texts (placing those texts as neutral), the following is that one will find.

It is a slam-dunk. It is not even close. The number of texts that seem to point to ultimate anihilation exceeds those texts that seem to support eternal conscious torment by perhaps 20 to 1.

It is an absolute landslide.

Take Care...

Tony (o2)

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 12:02 PM
Excellent debating style. :rolleyes: You make a claim and leave proof to support your claim as an exercise for the reader.

I do very poorly without proof, give me concrete examples, not just arguements and accusations.

o2bwise
May 29th, 2002, 01:00 PM
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

This describes an event of finite time duration. In the LXX, the Greek word used is aion (or some form of it). Aion is always used, regardless of the duration of time.

I don't have the present wherewithal to supply every single text that SEEMS to support anihilation, but there are several.

John 3:16 is one of many examples. Something that has perished is generally considered to not be.

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 04:08 PM
John 3:16 is one of many examples. Something that has perished is generally considered to not be.

No to be physically, yes.



The word is neutral. It is dependent on the nature of the surrounding text, much like the word ALWAYS.
...
Aion is always used, regardless of the duration of time.

So you concede that the potential use of this word does not always mean finite? That would make your previous arguement moot, wouldn't it?

Dude-eronomy
May 29th, 2002, 05:04 PM
... and not a backhanded way of making a point:

If Christ's sacrifice of himself for us is real and our sins are forgiven, wouldn't hell be for those who think it exits?

--Mark

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 05:10 PM
dude, could you explain yourself?

Dude-eronomy
May 29th, 2002, 05:17 PM
Hi cirisme. Explain myself?

--Mark

AVmetro
May 29th, 2002, 07:36 PM
I believe the story of the rich man and the poor man in the after life points to a justice system set up by God that some call karma. God does not have to administer the punishment any more than God has to maintain the earth on its axis. He created a self sufficient system in every way and it is built to maintain itself as long as needed.

In the case of wrongs committed against other human beings, karma (or Biblically an eye for an eye) takes care of the just and appropriate "righting" of that wrong. In the case of the rich man and the poor man in the afterlife found in the Bible, notice the rich man suffers the same needs that he caused the poor man to endure while alive. The rich man has traded places with the poor man and now it is he who is desiring a drink of water instead of the poor man.

The scripture that says it is God's desire that none should perish points to the idea that - none will. How could it be that God's will would not be done? Also, when Jesus says "if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me" is another example. Notice he said ALL. This is evidence that all of us will pay our karmic debts and eventually be together with God in eternity.


This was WAY OUT THERE!! :) <cool>

Jefferson
May 29th, 2002, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Dude-eronomy
Hi cirisme. Explain myself?
Please do. I'm not following what point you're trying to make either.

AVmetro
May 29th, 2002, 07:50 PM
Hey o2,

Dan12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. "

This a prophecy concerning the end time judgment.

The Hebrew word for everlasting here is ' owlam' or 'olam'
Strong's 5769 the vanishing point; gen. time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (paractically) eternity; freq. adv. (espec. with prip. pref.) always:--alway (-s) ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (= without end). Comp. 5331, 5703

In other words 'eternity'.......

You have to remember, o2, that the LXX is a COPY of the original Hebrew. If you want the original thought clarified further, look at the original Hebrew manuscripts first :) .

Could you clarify your view with a few more scriptures, so I can get a little more orientated. Thanks ;)

Ya'll people just wait til' I find that NWT....grrrrrr :D

God bless...

Dude-eronomy
May 29th, 2002, 07:50 PM
I don't have a point; I'm asking a question! My assumption has always been that for all my flaws, everything is made right in Christ, and then, at the end of a stimulating discussion about hell, I ask a question -- to politely introduce myself and stimulate conversation. Sheesh!

cirisme
May 29th, 2002, 08:16 PM
Sorry, wickwoman, I seem to have missed your post. :o

The very verse you're quoting says nothing about "and after x amount of time he was sent to heaven." Not to mention the fact that it has very little to do with justice and very much to do with free will. And besides, why wouldn't earth be considered "pergutory"?

dude said,
I don't have a point; I'm asking a question!

Sorry, I thought it was rhetorical.


If Christ's sacrifice of himself for us is real and our sins are forgiven, wouldn't hell be for those who think it exits?

That would be contradictory, Jesus forgives your sins and then you goto hell?


My assumption has always been that for all my flaws, everything is made right in Christ, and then, at the end of a stimulating discussion about hell, I ask a question -- to politely introduce myself and stimulate conversation.
I thought I might have killed o2's arguement, but he'll be back. You're right about being made right in Christ, but it's a free choice on our parts. It's good meeting you and hopefully you won't be so scarce in the future! :D

Dude-eronomy
May 29th, 2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by cirisme
It's good meeting you and hopefully you won't be so scarce in the future! :D

Much of what I've read here sails over my head, but I'm here to learn and will almost certainly be asking lots of questions.

--Mark

o2bwise
May 30th, 2002, 06:15 AM
Hello cirisme,

Not to be physically, yes.

You are being eisegetical. If you take the text AS IT READS, it refers to people perishing. It does NOT refer to a SUBSET of a person perishing. You need to add to the verse, according to your biases. I can take it just as it reads.

Furthermore, your suggestions seems silly to me on the following basis. You remove the only real significant aspect of “aliveness” from that which perishes. And that would be our very personality, our intelligent conscious existence.

But, that is the ESSENCE of being alive. I am ALIVE if I have consciousness. To take a verse which describes the lost as perishing and then to assert that the core attribute of being alive is not really being alluded to, is tantamount to effectively removing all significance to what it means to perish anyway.


So you concede that the potential use of this word does not always mean finite? That would make your previous arguement moot, wouldn't it?

Incorrect. My assertion is that the word has the very latitude I mentioned. My assertion is that one simply cannot take a text that has the rendering FOREVER and say, “Look! See how it says forever? That means the lost suffer forever!”

I had no need to REQUIRE it to mean finite time duration. I only asserted that virtually every text that has the rendering FOREVER adds zero support to your position. And if we look elsewhere to see what the Bible says about the subject, the preponderance of evidence is vastly skewed on the side of annihilation.


Here’s another text.
HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS LIFE.

Like John 3, the gift is ETERNAL LIFE.

Are you going to be eisegetical and qualify that too?

Such as: Well, it doesn’t really mean LIFE, it is referring to a KIND of life.

I would agree that it is implicit that the life that will be had will be glorious, but I also assert that it means just what it says.

He who has the Son has LIFE.

He who has not the Son, in an ultimate sense, has NOT LIFE.

Period.

But, I expect you will be eisegetical again. Qualify away!

God Bless…

Tony (o2)

cirisme
May 30th, 2002, 08:55 AM
I don't have to add anything to the Bible to say "Not to be physically":

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

Death is not the end of anyone. It's the end of the physical life, where we will greet eternal life or eternal death. Eternal life being with God(since God is life) and eternal death being away from Him.(since God is life)


And if we look elsewhere to see what the Bible says about the subject, the preponderance of evidence is vastly skewed on the side of annihilation.

Then you won't have any problem showing me atleast 5, preferably more, passages that clearly supports your possition.

o2bwise
May 30th, 2002, 11:09 AM
Howdy cirisme,

A quickie during lunch.

You wrote:
I don't have to add anything to the Bible to say "Not to be physically":

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." -Revelation 21:8

Death is not the end of anyone. It's the end of the physical life, where we will greet eternal life or eternal death. Eternal life being with God(since God is life) and eternal death being away from Him.(since God is life)

Help me out here. I am assuming you are asserting that Rev 21:8 somehow is saying the destruction is only physical. Where is this stated in the above verse.

Throw something in a fire – and it is destroyed. If I take a chair and toss it in a fire, it is destroyed.

Or are you suggesting that a part of man naturally survives death of his body? Where can I find evidence of this? The more one impairs another’s brain, the more that person’s consciousness has been impacted. Give a guy a frontal lobotomy and he doesn’t think like before. Place his brain in a literal fire, burn it to a crisp, and he ain’t gonna be able to think at all!


You wrote:
Then you won't have any problem showing me atleast 5, preferably more, passages that clearly supports your possition.

Well, I think you will never be satisfied that any verse is clear enough. You have just stated that being dead is inclusive of one’s consciousness being alive so even that, apparently, isn’t clear enough.

But, I’ll supply a couple verses off the top of my head. Meanwhile, can you supply the five verses that seem clearest to you in support of your view?


Obadiah 15,16
15 "For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. 16 For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow, And they shall be as though they had never been.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Psalm 37:10-11
For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.
But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves. 3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Back to work…

God Bless,

Tony

o2bwise
May 31st, 2002, 05:51 AM
bump

cirisme
May 31st, 2002, 10:10 AM
Sorry for taking so long to reply, I started to last night and then got distracted....


Or are you suggesting that a part of man naturally survives death of his body? Where can I find evidence

of this? The more one impairs another’s brain, the more that person’s consciousness has been impacted. Give

a guy a frontal lobotomy and he doesn’t think like before. Place his brain in a literal fire, burn it to a crisp, and he

ain’t gonna be able to think at all!

There's a big difference between what you said and what I said. You say consciousness, I say soul. I beleive

that when you die, you go unconscious until the great white throne judgment. Do you believe in the soul? You

should, or your arguement is futile. The soul is the part of us that communes with God. If that commune is

destroyed, the soul is destroyed, leaving only the spirit(which is us). So, I suppose we can agree that hell will

destroy the soul, while leaving the spirit.(which is what the quoted indicates)



In Hades, he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far off, and Lazarus at his bosom.

-Mattew 16:23


If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having

your two hands to go into Gehenna,[a common name for hell] into the unquenchable fire,
'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.'
If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two

feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched--
'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.'
If your eye causes you to stumble, cast it out. It is better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye,

rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire,
'where their worm doesn't die, and the fire is not quenched.' -Mark 9:43-48


But I tell you, that everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the

judgment; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council; and whoever shall say,

'You fool!' shall be in danger of the fire of Gehenna. -Matthew 5:22


If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you: for it is profitable for you that

one of your members should perish, and not your whole body be thrown into Gehenna. -Matthew 5:30


But I will warn you whom you should fear. Fear him, who after he has killed, has power to cast into

Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him. -Luke 12:5


Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to [notice

that it doesn't say "will"] destroy both soul and body in hell.

cirisme
May 31st, 2002, 05:17 PM
Ahem...

*bump*.

AVmetro
May 31st, 2002, 06:45 PM
Hey o2!

Got an answer for my 'Daniel' post? Just curious. Everybody seemed to skip over it ;) .

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 1st, 2002, 08:23 AM
Still waiting for an answer o2!

If I have to bump this one more time....
I'm PMing o2.

o2bwise
June 1st, 2002, 12:38 PM
Hi cirisme,

I'll get to ya. Weekends are hard.

Speaking of weekends, here's hoping "you and yours" are having a blessed one!:)

God Bless Ya...

Tony

P.S. And the same goes to you, AV! By the way, I don't know what Daniel verse you are referring to. Finally, can you respond to my post to you in the Trinity thread? With scripture + reason?

cirisme
June 1st, 2002, 01:25 PM
Have a great weekend, o2. Hope to see you back this week. :)

AVmetro
June 1st, 2002, 02:14 PM
Hey!

That would be my post on page 3 of this thread on touching Dan12:2.

Have a great weekend. Believe me, I work two jobs and have a family, so I know what it means to be worn out ;)

I'll get to your post after Ev's , agage's , and CD's .......

I'm not putting you off, just these people are ravenous :) .

God bless you in all you do,
Jeremiah L.G.

o2bwise
June 3rd, 2002, 07:20 AM
Hi cirisme,

Say, I am thankful for the cordiality of our more recent exchange. I needed to step back and be reminded that our differences ought not be any cause for either of us being a stumbling block or for any harsh feeling. Christ loves you so much that He died for you. Ought I not have the same mind?

OK…

There's a big difference between what you said and what I said. You say consciousness, I say soul. I beleive

that when you die, you go unconscious until the great white throne judgment. Do you believe in the soul?

Yes, I do, cirisme. However, there is a fundamental difference in how we view the nature of man so I will explain with a rough analogy.

Consider a light bulb. It is made up of hardware. If it is given electricity, it has certain qualities such as illumination and heat.

I believe man is much like the light bulb. I believe illumination and heat can represent aspects of man’s consciousness, the thinking and feeling part of man. His personality.

Here is the main reason I use the light bulb analogy.

Light and heat do not survive the destruction of the bulb itself, i.e. the physical part of the bulb, the hardware.

The main bone of contention I have with the common understanding of the nature of man, is that it believes man can be split up into its separate components. Like you could cut man up and have the spirit over here, the physical part over there, and the soul in some other place.

I don’t think it works that way. I see man as a unit that has a few wondrous qualities. He feels, he loves, he has powers of intellect, but they don’t survive the destruction of the brain, for example.

Cirisme, that really is the crux of our seeing things differently. You believe aspects of man can be completely severed from other aspects – and they can live.

Using the light bulb as an analogy, I believe if one were to put a sledgehammer to the hardware, light and heat would not survive as independent attributes.

You should, or your arguement is futile. The soul is the part of us that communes with God. If that commune is destroyed, the soul is destroyed, leaving only the spirit(which is us). So, I suppose we can agree that hell will destroy the soul, while leaving the spirit.(which is what the quoted indicates)

The following is what I think the quote illustrates. People have gone to the grave with faith intact. They died, but in their last dying breath, there was a reassurance of the resurrection. When dead, all of him was dead.

The fire of God’s love will have the following effect on a lost person. The fire will reveal his immoral state as in a moment. NO VEIL. Such a person will be consumed with guilt. He will respond to that burden with an intractable despair. This will be the final IDENTITY of his person.

His “soul” is destroyed “in the fires of hell.”

I don’t even think it’s really talking about whether or not consciousness is destroyed because of fire. I don’t think it’s really a treatise on the nature of man – in terms of clearly laying out that when man dies in the physical sense, man is indeed dead – all of him. I think it is simply saying the following…

Don’t be so concerned about that which can destroy your physical body. Rather be more concerned with that which can destroy your very identity (your soul).

Now you mentioned the fire that cannot be quenched and the verse referring to the worm that does not die.

Speaking of the unquenchable fire…

Song of Solomon 8:6-7
. 6 The Shulamite to Her Beloved Set me as a seal upon your heart, As a seal upon your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy as cruel as the grave; F13 Its flames are flames of fire, A most vehement F14 flame. 7 Many waters cannot quench love, Nor can the floods drown it. If a man would give for love All the wealth of his house, It would be utterly despised.

Now, one might think this verse is not applicable to “unquenchable fire.” However, as we are instructed to “compare spiritual with spiritual” and “line upon line, here a little, there a little,” this verse is common to both FIRE and UNQUENCHABLE.

An unquenchable fire need not mean that something burns forever (like a chair). It does need to mean that the fire never stops.

And that is true of God’s love. For all eternity, “God is love” and that reality will never be quenched (put out).


Regarding “worm,” that verse is pretty cryptic. Personally, I don’t see it as forcing a whole lot of doctrine. “Worm does not die,” what does that mean? I read of an explanation that seems possible. The context is a picture of vast DEATH. One of the most striking portrayels of massive death is war, as an example. WWI is a good example, with all the trench warfare. After the conclusion of a battle, one could see thousands upon thousands of dead bodies, lying in the ground and decomposing. One would also see worms.

It is not a metaphor used to indicate any kind of life at all. I don’t think the point is that there will be worms “in hell.” The point is, the Bible is simply taking highly peculiar imagery that is powerful in terms of what it conveys. And that is an appalling scene of massive death.

To summarize, cirisme, I don’t see that the passages you cited need point to the ideas you hold.

And I think the lamp bulb analogy I posed strikes at a jugular with respect to where some of the most fundamental differences lie.

God Bless,

Tony

o2bwise
June 3rd, 2002, 07:28 AM
Hi AV,

Gotta get to work, but to quickly explain the idea of "everlasting contempt," there are other possibilities.

Take a guy like Stalin who it appears was an absolute monster. He need not live forever in order for the record of his life to be eternal. A zillion years from now, sinless beings could discuss the horribleness of sin and as an example describe the life of Stalin. They could shake their heads in contempt for the incredible evil of that life.

Everlasting contempt.

Absolutely.

Doesn't mean Stalin has to live forever in order for the record of his life to elicit revulsion for an eternity.

Tony

cirisme
June 3rd, 2002, 09:38 AM
I will respond, o2, soon. I'll do some Biblical research and post my reply very soon.

In Him,
-AJ

AVmetro
June 3rd, 2002, 06:17 PM
Everlasting Contempt
Hi AV,

Gotta get to work, but to quickly explain the idea of "everlasting contempt," there are other possibilities.

Take a guy like Stalin who it appears was an absolute monster. He need not live forever in order for the record of his life to be eternal. A zillion years from now, sinless beings could discuss the horribleness of sin and as an example describe the life of Stalin. They could shake their heads in contempt for the incredible evil of that life.

Everlasting contempt.

Absolutely.

Doesn't mean Stalin has to live forever in order for the record of his life to elicit revulsion for an eternity.

Tony


There's a problem with the theology however; there will be no contempt in heaven. It is stated in the Dan text that it is the dead RAISED who will suffer the everlasting contempt.

Let me ask you a few questions, answer each individually with a one or two sentence answer in order to lay the basis for a methodical discussion:

1.) Must sin be punished? Consider the fact that God is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD. Let's take satan for example; a being whom has no remorse for his actions. Must his sin be punished?

2.) Can the blood of animals (i.e. sacrifice) take away sin?

3.) Can the death of the sinner take away the sin?

4.) Can good works take away sin?

5.) Do you agree that ONLY the blood of Jesus can take away sin?

6.) Do you agree, according to the above, that when a man dies once, without Christ that his sin remains unpunished?

btw I found that NWT (rejoice)!!! :D

God bless...

cirisme
June 4th, 2002, 09:54 AM
AV said,
btw I found that NWT (rejoice)!!!

I'm rejoicing! :D

o2 said,
Say, I am thankful for the cordiality of our more recent exchange. I needed to step back and be reminded that our differences ought not be any cause for either of us being a stumbling block or for any harsh feeling. Christ loves you so much that He died for you. Ought I not have the same mind?

I am thankful for this as well. Although, I notice you make it sound like I'm the hard one to love... ;)


Yes, I do, cirisme. However, there is a fundamental difference in how we view the nature of man so I will explain with a rough analogy.

Consider a light bulb. It is made up of hardware. If it is given electricity, it has certain qualities such as illumination and heat.

I believe man is much like the light bulb. I believe illumination and heat can represent aspects of man’s consciousness, the thinking and feeling part of man. His personality.

Here is the main reason I use the light bulb analogy.

Light and heat do not survive the destruction of the bulb itself, i.e. the physical part of the bulb, the hardware.

When the lightbulb is destroyed, light and heat are not destroyed. Indeed, the lightbulb can no longer produce these things, but they still exist. Do they not? Now, this is where you might begin arguing that it's not the same light, my response to that would be, "Well, is a light bulb ever continuasly producing the same light?" The answer would be no. Let's try a different analogy. I have a glass of milk. Being the clutz I am, I drop it and the glass breaks. The milk continues to exist, but the glass can not contain it any longer.

That's the way it is with our bodies. We have a physical body which is the "glass" that contains our spirit, us. When our glass breaks, the milk leaves and it must go somewhere. If that "milk" was close to God in relationship, then it will spend eternity close to God. If that milk was seperated from God when the glass broke, it will spend eternity away from God.


"There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. -Luke 16:19-23

Jesus indicated that we are indeed made up of many things:


"....Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." -Matthew 26:41

o2bwise
June 5th, 2002, 11:34 AM
Too busy right now...

cirisme
June 5th, 2002, 11:44 AM
That's ok, o2. I came down with a cold and I'm surprised I can form a coherent sentence right now. ;)

AVmetro
June 5th, 2002, 01:48 PM
Topic Review (Newest First)


cirisme That's ok, o2. I came down with a cold and I'm surprised I can form a coherent sentence right now.


o2bwise Too busy right now...





Oh well...while you two are down for the time being I'll just take this time to SPAM!! :D

AVmetro
June 5th, 2002, 01:49 PM
SPAMMM!!!!!!

AVmetro
June 5th, 2002, 01:50 PM
SPAM AGAIN HAHA!!!!

cirisme
June 5th, 2002, 04:33 PM
Spam us while we're down... isn't there something about that in the Ten Commandments?

:p

AVmetro
June 5th, 2002, 05:41 PM
Hey what do you know! It's the 12th commandment. Didn't see it until I went to the link. Sorry Knight :o .
However I would like to point out the crucial fact that every one of those 'spams' was directly and highly relevent to the topic on this thread......um ...yeah...........

cirisme
June 6th, 2002, 09:13 AM
You're right at that. The spam you posted was highly relevant, and controversial. Gotta love 'em! :D

o2bwise
June 7th, 2002, 07:29 AM
Hi cirisme,

Finally!:)



When the lightbulb is destroyed, light and heat are not destroyed. Indeed, the lightbulb can no longer produce these things, but they still exist. Do they not? Now, this is where you might begin arguing that it's not the same light, my response to that would be, "Well, is a light bulb ever continuasly producing the same light?" The answer would be no. Let's try a different analogy. I have a glass of milk. Being the clutz I am, I drop it and the glass breaks. The milk continues to exist, but the glass can not contain it any longer.

My main point is that the light bulb example was AN ANALOGY. I used it NOT to be representative of how a light bulb really behaves, but rather as a representation of how I believe MAN is!

I agree, the light/heat remain. They diffuse, but they remain (in one form or another). But, that's not my point. And even though this is really outside the topic, IF I accept your analogy and force it to my understanding of man, I would assert that the light and heat BEFORE the bulb broke exist, they would have to be streams of consciousness whose GENERATION preceded the destruction of the bulb.

Now, that's getting a little "high-tech" for me, i.e. does a thought "live?" Does it travel in some dimension? I don't know and at this time, I don't really much care.

But, again, to accept your understanding of light bulbs, I would assert that there is no longer CONTINUED GENERATION OF HEAT AND LIGHT and due to the fact that the hardware is destroyed. No continued streams of consciousness. No continued praise of the Lord, love for the Lord.

The psalmist indeed asks, "Who can praise thee in the grave" and Acts, when referring to David, does not say that his body is in the grave, it says that DAVID is in the grave?

Now, wouldn't that be colossaly superficial if David is equated to his body and NOT his person?



That's the way it is with our bodies. We have a physical body which is the "glass" that contains our spirit, us. When our glass breaks, the milk leaves and it must go somewhere. If that "milk" was close to God in relationship, then it will spend eternity close to God. If that milk was seperated from God when the glass broke, it will spend eternity away from God.

Well, I chose the analogy so as to do just this. To provide what I see as the core point of departure of our beliefs. I asserted my belief with respect to this and you have asserted yours.

Frankly, I do not subscribe to your belief and I understand and appreciate that you do not subscribe to mine.

But, I repeat, the Bible does not differentiate personhood from how a being is identified. It speaks of Satan being destroyed. It does not parse his physical component (should he have one) from any consciousness component. Same with David and the same with everyone else.

I believe this is a strong biblical argument in my favor.

To me, the most PERTINENT attribute of me (Tony) is not my flesh and bones. It is my personality. It is the sum collection of my thoughts and feelings and passions and loves, etc. It is inclusive of the service with which my MIND renders to the Lord.

To say that Tony is in "hades" and he can't praise the Lord and then to:

1. Assert that "Tony" is inclusive of his consciousness and thus all of him is dead

is a lot more accurate a statement of just WHO Tony is, then to assert

2. Tony refers to just his physical component. The rest is NOT Tony.


I think to suggest the Bible actually does not include one's personhood as a PART of how one is identified is unacceptable and clearly erroneous.


God Bless You cirisme...

Tony

cirisme
June 7th, 2002, 10:16 AM
The psalmist indeed asks, "Who can praise thee in the grave" and Acts, when referring to David, does not say that his body is in the grave, it says that DAVID is in the grave?

I don't have much time, so could you please quote me chapter and verse...


I believe this is a strong biblical argument in my favor.

Really!?! All you've done is quote your opinion, you haven't shown me where the Bible seems to be overwhelmingly in your favor.

This would require Satan to exist, would it not...


And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. -Revelation 20:10 ?:confused:

O2, do you believe in heaven? More importantly, do you believe that anyone will goto heaven?

cirisme
June 7th, 2002, 10:26 AM
Tony refers to just his physical component. The rest is NOT Tony.

I disagree with you on that, mostly because it's your opinion. But, if you insist, I can work it out. The Bible teaches that the spirit and bodies reunite at the end of the world, for both believers and unbelievers. The believers' body will be recreated with pefection for God, where as the unbelievers will be stuck with what they have:


The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. -Revelation 20:13

And for the believer...


For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. -1st Thessalonians 4:16

That makes your arguement moot, doesn't it?

cirisme
June 8th, 2002, 02:32 PM
That makes your arguement moot, doesn't it?

*cough**cough**cough*bump*cough**cough**cough*

Sorry, this cold is probably super contagious. I hope you don't catch it because of me... *cough**cough*

cirisme
June 9th, 2002, 09:22 AM
Waiting for your response, I reread your post and found this:


IF I accept your analogy and force it to my understanding of man, I would assert that the light and heat BEFORE the bulb broke exist, they would have to be streams of consciousness whose GENERATION preceded the destruction of the bulb.

I lost you on this. Also, notice you say "I would assert." Does this mean there is no Biblical support for your arguement?

cirisme
June 9th, 2002, 01:02 PM
Until you directly respond to me, I bestow upon you a grade of INCOMPLETE and if I recall such a grade is inferior to an F.

Why don't you respond to my post, point by point?

Why do you act as though it doesn't even exist?

I am frankly amazed by the pathetic nature of your dialogue.

It is unbecoming a disciple of Christ.

-Tony, er uh AJ


o2, does this sound familiar? It should, it comes from here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=70310#post70310

o2bwise
June 10th, 2002, 10:36 AM
Hi cirisme,

Partial answer:

I don't have much time, so could you please quote me chapter and verse...

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

Acts 2:27-29
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' F9 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.



Really!?! All you've done is quote your opinion, you haven't shown me where the Bible seems to be overwhelmingly in your favor.

Overwhelmingly? That I will not do. That would take going through the entire Bible together and I suspect the term is subject to interpretation. What I believe is overwhelming, you surely would not. In addition, do you think you have provided overwhelming support for your position? I sure don’t!

Finally, I strung a few texts together which I believe support my position well. Perhaps you could take them, one by one, and suggest an interpretation contrary to their apparent one (the apparent one being consistent with my view).

Gotta run,

God Bless…

Tony (o2)

cirisme
June 10th, 2002, 01:37 PM
Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

I don't know what traslation you're using, but mine translates 'death' as hell. You certainly don't expect people to praise God in hell, do you?! Also note that in verse 4, which you delibrately left out, makes it perfectly clear that the psalmist is referring to the soul.


Acts 2:27-29
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' F9 29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Again, you're misquoting scripture. This verse refers specifically to Jesus, which is clear with verse 31:


...he[David] foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that neither was his soul left in Hades, nor did his flesh see decay.


Finally, I strung a few texts together which I believe support my position well. Perhaps you could take them, one by one, and suggest an interpretation contrary to their apparent one (the apparent one being consistent with my view).

Really!?! I know I have. In fact, I've asked you several questions which you rudely ignore. For instance, when you stated that everyone would simply be destroyed, I showed you in the Bible where it says otherwise and asked you this question:


O2, do you believe in heaven? More importantly, do you believe that anyone will goto heaven?

I don't see an answer.


Overwhelmingly? That I will not do. That would take going through the entire Bible together and I suspect the term is subject to interpretation. What I believe is overwhelming, you surely would not. In addition, do you think you have provided overwhelming support for your position? I sure don’t!

You mean you can't do it, support for your arguement simply isn't there. I have posted verse after verse that speaks of people in hades and you haven't reponded. If a verse that speaks of very specific people in heaven and hell isn't overwhelming proof for you, then you are a sad human being that needs lots of prayer.

Now, you mind actually addressing my arguement with Biblical evidence and not just emotion and your opinion?

o2bwise
June 10th, 2002, 02:04 PM
You know what, cirisme?

I find you to be a total drag to communicate with. I suppose you can say it's me, you can think whatever of me you want to. But, I don't feel this way about anyone else in this forum.

I just don't want to dialogue with you anymore. I feel that you too easily resort to inaccurate personal criticism, though no doubt you feel it is accurate and that's cool too.

I'm done (writing with you).

I really tried. It just denigrates, in my opinion.

Fare thee well...

o2bwise
June 10th, 2002, 02:28 PM
I gotta say one thing.

Hades IS the grave.

SHEOL (Hebrew) = HADES (Greek) = GRAVE (English)

cirisme
June 10th, 2002, 03:21 PM
I find you to be a total drag to communicate with. I suppose you can say it's me, you can think whatever of me you want to. But, I don't feel this way about anyone else in this forum.

I just don't want to dialogue with you anymore. I feel that you too easily resort to inaccurate personal criticism, though no doubt you feel it is accurate and that's cool too.

I'm done (writing with you).

I really tried. It just denigrates, in my opinion.

Fare thee well...

Translation... you don't have any proof. If I didn't challenge you, you wouldn't feel "tired."


though no doubt you feel it is accurate and that's cool too.

For someone who hates personal criticism, you sure judge me.

o2bwise
June 10th, 2002, 04:05 PM
Translation... you don't have any proof. If I didn't challenge you, you wouldn't feel "tired."

If it floats your boat, believe it...

AVmetro
June 12th, 2002, 04:36 PM
Hey guys, I'm back!! :D....Hey....where did everybody go? HeLlOoOooooo! I got my NWT.....anybody there? :confused:

missedmarks
June 12th, 2002, 05:33 PM
Just my two cents.

I think the whole fire thing is just an illustration for the fact that hell will be a rather negative state of being.

When it comes down to it, the 'big' sin (Lucifer's sin) is pride. All the other sins basically revolve around putting one's self first (Pride). The only way to be saved is to depend on God, so therefore the main way to damnation is to rely on one's self. In the end, when the sheep and the goats are seperated, the Goats will not be the ones who were "Naughty" they will be the one's who felt they didn't need God, or didn't want him.

In the end I think they will get exactly what they wanted (Satan and his rebel angels as well) total absence from God. I do not think hell is going to be a prison where God is going to "Get even" with Satan and the "goats" I think it will be whatever is leftover when he finally seperates himself and is done with them.

Just my opinion, add that to 50 cents and you can get a cup of coffee at your cheaper donut shops.

AVmetro
June 12th, 2002, 07:31 PM
This is a very rough draft of my "hell" thing. All scripture is taken from the NWT of the JWs so bear with it ;) .

Mal2:17 "You people have made Jehovah weary by your words......'Everyone that is doing bad is good in the eyes of Jehovah,......Where is the God of justice?"

*Why are the people here complaining. Is God's justice of no effect? See Deut32:3-4

"For I shall declare the name of Jehovah,..perfect....For all his ways are justice.....with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he."

*Justice must be satisfied in order to fulfill God's nature.
How does God satisfy required justice? See Deut19:20

"So those who remain wil hear and be afraid.....soul will be for soul, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot."

*Earthly justice to be satisfied in that the punishment must 'cancel out' the offending sin. (*note: Example; Adam's "death" required the equal justice of Christ's death on the cross.)
See Matt5:38-41

"You heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. However I say to you: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him."

*Why are people told 'not to exact justice' in the time of Christ? Why did Jesus change the manner in which justice was to be carried out? (Justice now comes after death). See Heb9:27

"...it is reserved for men to die once......after this a judgement. Christ was offered once.....to bear the sins of many....to those earnestly looking for him for salvation."

*Because of Christ's sacrifice, judgement has been reserved for after death. See Heb10:4

"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away."

*Those without Christ are still to satisfy God's just nature.
See Jn8:24

"For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."

*Animal sacrifice cannot remove sin. ONLY Christ can appease God's demand for justice as pertaining to sin. After death there is judgement, and the sin remains. Who does God's justice demand to hold accountable? See Jn8:44

"You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father."

*He who sins @ all does the will of satan. Remember the serpant in Eden? Satan is the origin of God's wrath. He who does the will of the devil makes him their "guide". For guides destination, See Matt15:14

"If then a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

*If the devil is your guide, you will follow him, of your own accord ,toward his designated destination. God's wrath is upon him. For the "pit" See Matt25:41

"....into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

*Let us first note that "Sheol" is not the same as "the lake of fire" (Rev20:14). The "lake of fire" is prepare specifically for satan. Travel there otherwise is of one's own initiative.
Why referred to as "everlasting" See Lev16:34

"And this must serve (law) as a statute to time indefinite for you in order to make atonement for the sons of Israel....."

*If you are not "dead" to the law through Christ, then you are (alive to) still under (held responsible for satisfying) the system of the OT covenant; proclaimed for everlasting. See Rom8:4

"God....condemned sin in the flesh (of Christ)..that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us.."

*If sin remains @ death then @ the resurrection you will be judged according to your works which follow you (Rev14:13).
After death, obtaining Christ's 'satisfaction of the OT covenant' is not an option and the requirement is not[/b] fulfilled. See Dan12:2

"And there will be many of those asleep in the ground of dust who will wake up, thesse to indefinitely lasting life and those to reproaches to indefinitely lasting abhorrence."

*God is eternal and therefore possesses [i]eternal justice. If the requiremetn is not fulfilled before death, then sin remains eternally unatoned for. Therefore God's eternal just nature demands just punishment. If there is no conciousness after death, how will the punishment be made known to the punishee?

How can one feel "everlasting contempt" if dead? There is no contempt in heaven.

Can death itself satisfy God's wrath? No. See Deut5:9

"...bringing punishment for the error of the fathers upon sons and upon the third generation and upon th fourth generation,..."

*After all we are ALL still being punished for the original sin fo Adam outside of Christ's atonement.

Remeber the above is very rough and still needs revision and work. But that's what this thread is for ;).

God bless,
AV

cirisme
June 14th, 2002, 09:45 AM
In the end I think they will get exactly what they wanted (Satan and his rebel angels as well) total absence from God. I do not think hell is going to be a prison where God is going to "Get even" with Satan and the "goats" I think it will be whatever is leftover when he finally seperates himself and is done with them.

I agree with this, missedmarks.


AV, excellent post. I believe that hell doesn't have much to do with "justice", per se. I believe that God does demand justice, but I believe that's what the government was established(by God) for. For instance, if the government gives a criminal life in prison, then God did the same(only, never-ending life), wouldn't that be "two eyes for an eye"? If everybody will get their just desert in the end, why did God go to the trouble of setting up a nation with such a complex justice system, Israel?

Just as an example, when Cain killed Abel, God commanded that no one kill Cain. Why? I believe, because there was no government but God, He was the only one with the authority for the death penalty. But after the flood, He reversed the policy. He said that you must kill murderers. Did God change? Of course not, instead He set up governments and gave them the authority(and accountability) to execute justice. Likewise, Jesus kept people from stoning the adultereous. I don't believe this was a change in policy either, just Jesus saying, "Hey, who died and made you government?"

Now I have the problem of tying this into hell... :)

Dude-eronomy
June 14th, 2002, 11:30 AM
But wait a minute! Our sins have been forgiven, and not only ours, but the sins of the entire world. Without transgression, how can there be punishment?

People, we have won the lottery and it's about time we began behaving like rich people...

--Mark

cirisme
June 14th, 2002, 04:44 PM
But wait a minute! Our sins have been forgiven, and not only ours, but the sins of the entire world. Without transgression, how can there be punishment?

The "Our sins have been forgiven" part is true, but "not only ours, but the sins of the entire world" is wrong. So, the part about there not being transgression is wrong.

Also, even if our sins are forgiven, there still must be punishment here on Earth. Let me explain myself,
when a person sins he commits a crime. A crime in God's law. He commits that act against the victim, the law, and God Himself. Jesus took the punishment that comes for the sin against God. However, the sin against the victim, and the law remains. That's why we need a justice system.

cirisme
June 14th, 2002, 04:46 PM
I'm not sure that's as clear as it should be, if anybody needs clarification, let me know.

Aimiel
June 15th, 2002, 01:28 PM
I have not seen anyone address this verse:
Revelation 14:11
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Where there is smoke, there is fire. Death and hell are to be cast into the lake of fire. That fire will never be quenched (Mark 9:43 & 45). There are no water-fountains in the lake of fire. There are worms, which never die. This is the description the Bible gives of the destruction, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, and is due to every soul who has ever lived; unless they come to a saving faith in Jesus. He is the only door to the Father.

Hell is a place. It is what is left of the paradise Adam and Eve were placed in. It is where the saints of old waited for Jesus to come and preach to them; because it used to be a sort of holding pen, for those who G_d knew would believe, and yet had no way of hearing the Gospel, for it had not yet been revealed. It has, since their deliverance, been re-decorated. If the torments of hell, which we find in the Bible, are scary, remember that death (which is a spirit) and hell, along with all of its prisoners, will be cast into the lake of fire. That is the second death. To have no hope of escape, no one to talk to, and no one to care. There will be no comfort in the lake of fire, no release, no reprieve, no rest and no light. Only darkness and suffering without let-up. That is worse than just not existing. If someone could just 'not exist,' that would be a neat trick, especially in the face of such a hopeless future. The spirit of men, demons and all the enemies of G_d are eternal beings, and there will be no end to their torment. This is G_d's perfect justice. He did not design it this way, but this is how it worked out, due to the invention of sin and the following by Adam and every man since him, except One: Jesus.

If there were no eternal death, as the lake of fire will be, there would have been no need for Him to take the form of a man and die to provide an avenue of escape. He could just say, "Olly olly oxen free," and we could all just march up to Heaven. He prayed that He would not have to die to the point of His blood pressure being greater than His skin could contain. That was how badly He wanted to not have to taste of the first death. It was not possible, because His sacrifice was necessary, or no one could have been saved. Thank G_d that He accepted it, willingly. If He had not, no one could get into Heaven.

o2bwise
June 15th, 2002, 04:19 PM
Hi famousGandalf,

If you could demonstrate that dragons and other beats are to be taken literally, I might think you had something.

How do you know the smoke is not symbolic?

All God's creation will benefit from a two-fold revelation. One, the death that is inherent to sin. Two, the life that is inherent to righteousness.

Smoke is a revelation of what sin does to the lost. God's servants will retain an eternal recollection of that smoke.

You don't seriously think it'll be like the physical part of the lost will somehow never fully burn up, but the smoky byproduct of this combustible reaction will ascend to heaven forever where the redeemed will actually look at it, do you?

Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up.

You really believe that?

AVmetro
June 15th, 2002, 07:39 PM
Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up.

O2, you're using the 'heart tug' tactic that atheists and the like use in reference to the bible as a whole. I could say the same for many of the Levitical "stoning" laws ;).

The 'smoke' etc..may be symbolic, but the fact that there will be conscious punishment is not.

O2, refer back to my argument in my last post on this thread. I need to refine it anyhow...

God bless you in the highest O2 :up: ,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 16th, 2002, 07:33 AM
God bless you in the highest O2

Hey! What about me!?

LOL :D

Evangelion
June 16th, 2002, 08:54 AM
Cirisme -


I don't know what traslation you're using

He's using the KJV. Don't you know the KJV when you see it?


but mine translates 'death' as hell.

Who cares about "your translation"? Have you ever checked the Hebrew word that is used in this verse?

Let's take a look, shall we?

Psalm 6:5.
For in death 4194 there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks

Strong's #4194, as defined by Brown-Driver-Briggs:

mâveth

1) Death, dying, death (personified), realm of the dead.
1a) Death.
1b) Death by violence (as a penalty.)
1c) State of death, place of death.

And you say that your translation renders this word as "hell"??! What a joke! I'd love to know what this "translation" is, Cirisme. Sounds like the "Little Golden Book Translation for Fundamentalists." ;)

o2bwise
June 16th, 2002, 11:03 AM
Hi AV,


O2, you're using the 'heart tug' tactic that atheists and the like use in reference to the bible as a whole. I could say the same for many of the Levitical "stoning" laws .

Where is this heart tug tactic? Can you cite it for me?

For your information, I believe the lost will suffer an experience just as horrifying and just as finite (in time) as Christ suffered on the cross - only worse. For their response will be despair while Christ's was a victorious faith.


The 'smoke' etc..may be symbolic, but the fact that there will be conscious punishment is not.

Can you cite where I ever said there wouldn't be conscious punishment? I believe there will be, but the DURATION will be finite. Just as the Levitical stoning law you mentioned was finite in time duration.

By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association. In other words, take a "bad" group, say that they do it too or believe it too, and (I suppose) imply a conclusion that says the tactic or belief or whatever must be wrong.

JW's believe there is a God. Are they wrong? My point: guilt by association is a logically flawed device. It substantiates nothing and only lessens the veracity of the argument of the person employing such a device.

God Bless,

Tony (o2)

Evangelion
June 16th, 2002, 12:00 PM
O2 -


By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association.

Yes, he definitely is.

It's his stock in trade - the mark of an uneducated man.

AVmetro
June 16th, 2002, 12:31 PM
O2 -



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes, he definitely is.

It's his stock in trade - the mark of an uneducated man.

Bored Ev? :)

What is comparable is comparable...

Evangelion
June 16th, 2002, 12:37 PM
Bored? Yes. Your entertainment value expired a long time ago. But I'm still curious to know the extent of your formal education, especially since you have occasionally made snide remarks about my education.

As for this...


What is comparable is comparable...

...it's utterly meaningless.

AVmetro
June 16th, 2002, 12:41 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O2, you're using the 'heart tug' tactic that atheists and the like use in reference to the bible as a whole. I could say the same for many of the Levitical "stoning" laws .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Where is this heart tug tactic? Can you cite it for me?

"Is that part of the eternal state of bliss that you discern? Imagine if the smoke was the smoke of your wife or son or mother burning up. "<<<

You seem to be implying that one shouldn't believe in "hell" because it doesn't 'fit' what we would like.




quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 'smoke' etc..may be symbolic, but the fact that there will be conscious punishment is not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Can you cite where I ever said there wouldn't be conscious punishment? I believe there will be, but the DURATION will be finite. Just as the Levitical stoning law you mentioned was finite in time duration.

I meant to emphasize the eternal aspect.




By the way, AV, you are a frequent employer of guilt by association. In other words, take a "bad" group, say that they do it too or believe it too, and (I suppose) imply a conclusion that says the tactic or belief or whatever must be wrong.

If the other group is indeed wrong then yes, I'll make a comparison to that......as for the below..




JW's believe there is a God. Are they wrong? My point: guilt by association is a logically flawed device. It substantiates nothing and only lessens the veracity of the argument of the person employing such a device.

Wrong. JWs follow a 'different' Christ than that of the bible. Therefore they are wrong in that as well.
I do not imploy guilt by association, but demonstrate the similarites of tactics.

God bless,
AV

AVmetro
June 16th, 2002, 12:44 PM
Bored? Yes. Your entertainment value expired a long time ago. But I'm still curious to know the extent of your formal education, especially since you have occasionally made snide remarks about my education.

Ev, your education evidently comes from your brother. Same quotes, same debate tactics, same insults, same arguments, same everything. If I had "Dr." in front of my name you would no doubt sluff it off as you do everyone else. Education is irrelevant to you, much as are the scriptures themselves.

o2bwise
June 16th, 2002, 02:00 PM
Hi AV,


What is comparable is comparable...

But, what makes it "comparable" is a PROOF that the thing being compared IS WRONG. In other words, the only valid forum is the forum that is the veracity of one's argument.

Thus, when you employ guilt by association, there is no validation that what you are using it for IS COMPARABLE.

As I said, JW's believe there is a God. Are they always wrong? If they are, we should all be atheists.

In other words, the guilt by association tack doesn't work. Force of argument is the only forum which works.

Tony

AVmetro
June 16th, 2002, 02:25 PM
Hi AV,



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is comparable is comparable...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



But, what makes it "comparable" is a PROOF that the thing being compared IS WRONG. In other words, the only valid forum is the forum that is the veracity of one's argument.

Thus, when you employ guilt by association, there is no validation that what you are using it for IS COMPARABLE.

As I said, JW's believe there is a God. Are they always wrong? If they are, we should all be atheists.

In other words, the guilt by association tack doesn't work. Force of argument is the only forum which works.

Tony

Tony,

I'm merely making a comparison as to why I don't accept certain debate tactics.
The 'heart tug' is a method used extensively by atheists and the like. I am not implying you to be an atheist. I just will not accept what I have seen to not work in prior times.

God bless you,
AV

cirisme
June 16th, 2002, 04:33 PM
And you say that your translation renders this word as "hell"??! What a joke!

Really?!?


1c) State of death, place of death.

Sounds like hell to me...

cirisme
June 16th, 2002, 04:35 PM
Just out of curiosity, o2, but why suddenly change the subject? What is your proof that hell is finite?

Evangelion
June 16th, 2002, 09:49 PM
AV -


Ev, your education evidently comes from your brother.

It comes from university, actually. :) You know - that big, important place where rich people get educated? ;)


Cirisme -


Sounds like hell to me...

"The place of death", eh? "Sounds like hell" to you, eh?

Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die? :)

And would you mind telling me why you're happy to use a Bible translation which renders the Hebrew word for "death" as "hell"?

What a joke. :rolleyes:

agape
June 17th, 2002, 05:08 AM
Notice that verse 11 of Revelation 14, says,;"The SMOKE of their torment ascends forever and ever." It is not saying that these individuals will be tormented forever in an ever-burning hell. God is not a sadist who wishes to torment His enemies perpetually. He clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is death," and that is what is being described here: a death of short-lived agony.

The latter part of verse 11 is referring to their previous condition on the earth as "day and night" which can hardly be spoken of the eternal state. "And they have no rest who are worshipping," etc. It is in the present participle and cannot mean who have worshipped or who did worship. "Receiveth" is also in the present tense implying that on earth they will have no rest day and night while they are engaged in worshipping the Beast; and as to eternity, "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever."

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ashes of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

I do not mean to be judgmental because I believe that there are a number of Christians who come here are sincere in their beliefs. However, sincerity is not always a guarantee for truth.

IMHO, Anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love of God.

All darkness, evil, wickedness, suffering will vanish and exist no more.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.

There will be no eternal suffering for the wicked for they shall all perish.

To be honest in handling the Word of Truth, one cannot isolate a few verses of scripture apart from the others and say this is what the Word of God teaches. It is necessary to study and view all Scripture that relates to the same subject matter as a whole. In doing this, we will come a true and accurate conclusion. :)

Evangelion
June 17th, 2002, 06:28 AM
Well played, Agape! :up:

Straight to the boundary for six!

:)

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 08:12 AM
And would you mind telling me why you're happy to use a Bible translation which renders the Hebrew word for "death" as "hell"?

And I care about your opinion because....?


Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?

Ever since Jesus refered to death for the believer as "sleep."


God is not a sadist who wishes to torment His enemies perpetually.

Once again, we have a complete (and delibrate) misunderstanding. Hell is not about torture.


IMHO, Anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love of God.

Anyone who thinks God would force people to choose them must realize there is no love. God gives us a choice to love Him or reject Him. He'll do everything He can, short of forcing us, to get us to love Him. Now, if He forces people to love Him, then that wouldn't really be love, now would it? He wants to be in harmony with His creation, us! You can't be in harmony if one party is against it, can you?


Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.

Your point? Hell is about complete seperation from everything! From God, from believers, from unbelievers. Totally and completely seperated. Of course they're gonna vanish!


To be honest in handling the Word of Truth, one cannot isolate a few verses of scripture apart from the others and say this is what the Word of God teaches.

Why do you keep doing that?

Evangelion
June 17th, 2002, 08:38 AM
Well, that was a pretty little mess of quotes. :)

I'll pick out those which were clearly addressed to me, and ignore the rest.


And I care about your opinion because....?

I am not asking you to care about my opinion. I am asking you to care about the correct translation of God's Word. I used to find it hard to believe that someone who claims to be a Christian, would be content with a Bible which contains obvious distortions.

That was before I met you. :rolleyes:


Ever since Jesus refered to death for the believer as "sleep."

This does not answer my question.

I had asked:

Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?

I have asked this question in order to emphasise the full extent of your false equivocation of "hell" and "death." Now, please answer my question.


Once again, we have a complete (and delibrate) misunderstanding. Hell is not about torture.

Eternal torment without relief. Hmmm...

...sounds like torture to me.

What would you call it? Club Med? ;)

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 09:08 AM
I used to find it hard to believe that someone who claims to be a Christian, would be content with a Bible which contains obvious distortions.

Wrong, again! I use over 15 translations, but I do have favorites. And how is it wrong when the context clearly means hell?


Eternal torment without relief. Hmmm...

...sounds like torture to me.

It's about seperation from God. I thought you didn't believe in a fiery hell, anyway?


I have asked this question in order to emphasise the full extent of your false equivocation of "hell" and "death." Now, please answer my question.

Okay, the question was...


Tell me, Cirisme - I'm curious to know - for how long have you believed that everyone goes to hell when they die?

Nice straw man, ev. Can you make an elephant out of straw like that?

That's not my position, ev. I believe the context of this verse shows seperation from God, meaning hell. Meaning the translation is correct. Meaning o2 is correct...


Hades IS the grave.

SHEOL (Hebrew) = HADES (Greek) = GRAVE (English)

Evangelion
June 17th, 2002, 09:18 AM
Cirisme -


Wrong, again! I use over 15 translations, but I do have favorites. And how is it wrong when the context clearly means hell?

How can the context "clearly mean hell", when (a) the word that is used, means "death", and (b) the (later) Christian concept of "hell" was totally unknown to the OT Jews?


It's about seperation from God.

Oh, so you believe in the Post-Modern hell. My mistake. :)


I thought you didn't believe in a fiery hell, anyway?

I don't.


Nice straw man, ev. Can you make an elephant out of straw like that?

The verse in question refers to "death." You argue that it refers to "hell." The verse in question clearly refers to something that comes to every men and woman. If I went along with your translation, I'd have to conclude that we all go to hell when we die.


That's not my position, ev. I believe the context of this verse shows seperation from God, meaning hell.

So where's your proof that this verse refers to "hell"? And how do you define "hell" anyway? As a place in which "souls" reside after the death of the body?


Meaning the translation is correct.

No, the translation is still incorrect, because the translators have taken a word which means "death", and translated it as "hell." Which it does not mean.


Meaning o2 is correct...

O2 said this:

Hades IS the grave.

SHEOL (Hebrew) = HADES (Greek) = GRAVE (English)

He correctly observes that hades is not the same as "hell."

agape
June 17th, 2002, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Evangelion
Well played, Agape! :up:

Straight to the boundary for six!

:) Thanks Evangelion ;)

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 10:37 AM
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me! :eek:

Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk...

I'll get back to the word "hell", 'God of love' etc......When I get back..

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

agape
June 17th, 2002, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by AVmetro
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me! :eek:

Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk.Of course I have already considered that it would be viewed as salient points made by a mind, such as yours, who finds it difficult to to think logically. :p

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 02:07 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AVmetro
I leave again only to come back with everyone playing without me!

Very, very salient points being made....tsk...tsk.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course I have already considered that it would be viewed as salient points made by a mind, such as yours, who finds it difficult to to think logically.

..Minds, such as yours, who find it difficult to think independently.

Apage, do you understand just how non-threatening you are to my faith? I've actually tried to sluff you off several times. Ev would like to say the same of me, however that's why he answers every tittle I post up :).

Now go sit in Ev's lap. You two 'twinkies' give each other a couple of sweat slackered high fives.

I wouldn't wet my panties too soon :kiss: .

btw You never answered me...Are you a boy or a girl? ;)

Jeremiah L.G.

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 02:37 PM
"Hell" should be correctly translated as 'Gehanna'. A waste valley near, I believe, Jerusalem. Hence the reference to "worms" and "sulfur".

Sheol is the 'afterlife' where the Jews believed the dead to reside.
Comparable to 'Hades'.

"Hell' or 'Gehanna' was strictly analogous of the actual destination to come.

As for 'Hades'-- "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire..." Rev20:14. I don't think 'Hades' or 'Hell', as in the KJV, plays a role as concerning the 'lake of fire'. This actually brings up a very good point. More on it......

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 02:38 PM
EV,

How can the context "clearly mean hell", when (a) the word that is used, means "death", and (b) the (later) Christian concept of "hell" was totally unknown to the OT Jews?

(A) I showed o2 on page six, I recommend you take a look. (B) This is relevant because...?


So where's your proof that this verse refers to "hell"?

Where's your proof it doesn't?


And how do you define "hell" anyway?

A place of complete seperation, mostly from God.

AV,

Now go sit in Ev's lap. You two 'twinkies' give each other a couple of sweat slackered high fives.

Laughs hysterically...:D

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 02:41 PM
btw You never answered me...Are you a boy or a girl?

Perhaps it's better we don't know. ;)

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 02:43 PM
A place of complete seperation, mostly from God.

I agree with this.

I also believe "The lake of fire" wasn't incorporated until NT times. I have more as to why......

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 02:45 PM
EV,

I don't.

WOW!!!!!! We actually agree on something! Remember this moment, it may never happen again. :D

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 02:46 PM
I also believe "The lake of fire" wasn't incorporated until NT times. I have more as to why......

Please share!

;)

Dude-eronomy
June 17th, 2002, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by cirisme


The "Our sins have been forgiven" part is true, but "not only ours, but the sins of the entire world" is wrong. So, the part about there not being transgression is wrong.

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate:

(1 John 2:2) "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." This passage is also featured in my denomination's liturgy.

How is the "whole world" part wrong?


Also, even if our sins are forgiven, there still must be punishment here on Earth. Let me explain myself,
when a person sins he commits a crime. A crime in God's law. He commits that act against the victim, the law, and God Himself. Jesus took the punishment that comes for the sin against God. However, the sin against the victim, and the law remains. That's why we need a justice system.

You seem to be all over the place, cirisme. When was anyone ever forgiven then punished? It can be said that we ask for unhappiness when we follow our own wills rather than God's, but seeking God's will is a very personal process.

To reiterate: Would you tell your kid that it's okay that he spilled his milk, then spank him and send him to bed?

--Mark

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 03:13 PM
Perhaps you'd care to elaborate:

(1 John 2:2) "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." This passage is also featured in my denomination's liturgy.

How is the "whole world" part wrong?

The world's sin was removed by Christ's death. He trapped them "in" death. Then "loopholed" by rising again. Everyone's sins are "removed", but ONLY if you are IN Christ. Otherwise you are still "outside" the forgiveness. You can only escape sin by escaping the punishment for sin. The only way to do that is through him that escaped death.

Sorta sorta kinda off but you get the picture....;) .

Dude-eronomy
June 17th, 2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by AVmetro
Sorta sorta kinda off but you get the picture....;) .

Not entirely, but bear with me. Is your point that the "whole world" is elligible, but only those who choose to be "in Christ" will receive forgiveness?

AVmetro
June 17th, 2002, 04:00 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AVmetro
Sorta sorta kinda off but you get the picture.... .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not entirely, but bear with me. Is your point that the "whole world" is elligible, but only those who choose to be "in Christ" will receive forgiveness?

2Peter3:9 "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

Precisely. The entire world is capable of being saved. You must be "in" Christ however in order to be atoned for. Sin demands, according to God's nature, to be punished. If you are "outside" of the atonement for that sin, then you are left behind in 'justice land'. Christ satisfied the punishment part FOR you. And ONLY he could do that. You can't. Therefore you must be IN Christ, to be atoned for and therefore forgiven. ;)

Kinda hard to explain, but you may get the picture....

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 04:36 PM
AV, you beat me to saying just that. ;)

Dude-eronomy
June 17th, 2002, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by AVmetro

Kinda hard to explain, but you may get the picture....

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

I think I do understand you AV, but I can't go there. As all men fell in Adam, so all men rise in Christ. If God is Love without condition, I can't see how anyone could fall outside of it.

I do not submit this as proof, but subjectively, this section of St. Patrick's Breastplate informs my opinion:

Christ with me, Christ before me, Christ behind me,
Christ in me, Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ on my right, Christ on my left,
Christ when I lie down, Christ when I sit down,
Christ when I arise,
Christ in the heart of every man who thinks of me,
Christ in the mouth of every one who speaks of me,
Christ in every eye that sees me,
Christ in every ear that hears me.

--Mark

cirisme
June 17th, 2002, 05:03 PM
As all men fell in Adam, so all men rise in Christ.

Adam is our ancestor, Jesus is not.

:)

agape
June 18th, 2002, 02:58 AM
AV,

>>>..Minds, such as yours, who find it difficult to think independently.

An intelligent mind thinks independently instead of being blindly led by the nose to a false belief such as hell is a continuous state of torture. It just as illogical as the trinity theory.

What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

As Mr. Spock would say: "Illogical," Jim. :D

Btw, you are correct; I never did tell you if I was a "boy" or "girl". ;)

sojouner
June 18th, 2002, 04:39 AM
admiral-D
<<What is hell? >>
First question to ask is What language does hell come from?
it is old german .

the 2nd Q? to ask is What does/did it mean in that language ?
it means to cover . We use it today in English in the word helmet
which means head cover !!

Also in britian somewhere they put there potatoes in "hell" to preseve them over the winter.

Next question to ask is

What are the words in the original biblical languages that are translated "hell"?

First one is from Hebrew O.T (SHEOL) and means grave or pit.

The rest as far as I'm aware come from Greek (N.t)
Hades which basically means the same as Sheol.

Tartaros which means deep abyss (cavern , chasm) and
Gehenna which is a place outside of Jerusalem where in the time of Jesus was the rubbish tip where they burnt the cities rubbish.

Incidentally it was also the place where in the time of Ahab the King in Jerusalem (Hezekiahs father ) the god moloch was worshiped with human sacrifice (babies and young children).

Where Jesus talks about being cast into "hell fire" he is talking about throwning into the rubbish dump the unrighteous that are judged to be worthless at his second comming they are not even worth giving a decent burial too .

Tartaros is used only once in scripture 2 peter 2vs4 and is a reference back to numbers 16 where Korah dathan and abiram rebeled against God and were cast into the great abyss reserved there for Judgement later on.
5020 tartaroo tar-tar-o’-o

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hell); ; v

AV-cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus

Just a few thoughts on hell for people to cogitate (I like this word) on .:)

Evangelion
June 18th, 2002, 04:42 AM
Nice work, sojourner. :up:

I'll be back later, to add my 2 cents.

:)

sojouner
June 18th, 2002, 04:55 AM
cirisme
Adam is our ancestor, Jesus is not.
But Jesus was a descendant of Adam therefore knows what it is to suffer the affliction of the temptation of sin so we have a faithful high priest who knows the feeling of our infirmities and can then stand in the breach made by our sins .

Gods desire is for all men to come unto him but he knows that they won't and thats their choice (freedom of choice and all that)
He made us free will beings .
Would you be happy with a Husband or wife who had no choice to love you ? Or would you be Happier with someone who Chose to love you of their own free will ?
How do you think it makes God feel when you Choose to Love him and his Ways ?
If you don't there are consequences
if you do there are consequences (you reap what you sow)

chew the cud on this lot:D

sojouner
June 18th, 2002, 05:08 AM
Evangelion
Thanks Evan
I know that you are a Chrissie ( No dissing intended ) I have quite a few Chrissie friends and ex-chrissies that are friends so I do have very simmilar beliefs to you .In fact my pastor was highly blessed during his time of training in the Christadephians before the Lord called him out of that branch of his family.
You might like to check out my site @
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sojouner
look under doctrines for what we believe .
there are 3 thesises (??) on the trinity the devil and immortal soulism . They are pretty heavy going so be warned :D

Would be interested in your comments!!

sojouner
June 18th, 2002, 05:11 AM
by the way for all those out there that want a good computer bible go to this address http://www.TheWordSoftware.Com
and you can down load quite a good bible program.!!

Evangelion
June 18th, 2002, 08:24 AM
Sojourner -


Thanks Evan

You're welcome. :)


I know that you are a Chrissie ( No dissing intended )

None taken. I know you're just being friendly. :up:


I have quite a few Chrissie friends and ex-chrissies that are friends so I do have very simmilar beliefs to you .In fact my pastor was highly blessed during his time of training in the Christadephians before the Lord called him out of that branch of his family.

Thanks. :)


You might like to check out my site @
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sojouner
look under doctrines for what we believe .

Yes, I've already gone through some of it. Very interesting.


there are 3 thesises (??)

Theses.


on the trinity the devil and immortal soulism . They are pretty heavy going so be warned

I'll do my best! :o


Would be interested in your comments!!

No worries. You'll receive them in due time. :)

cirisme
June 18th, 2002, 08:54 AM
Sojourner,

Gods desire is for all men to come unto him but he knows that they won't and thats their choice (freedom of choice and all that)
He made us free will beings .
Would you be happy with a Husband or wife who had no choice to love you ? Or would you be Happier with someone who Chose to love you of their own free will ?
How do you think it makes God feel when you Choose to Love him and his Ways ?
If you don't there are consequences
if you do there are consequences (you reap what you sow)

I agree. :)


But Jesus was a descendant of Adam therefore knows what it is to suffer the affliction of the temptation of sin so we have a faithful high priest who knows the feeling of our infirmities and can then stand in the breach made by our sins .

I agree again. Dude-e was saying that all men fall with Adam, and all men rise with Jesus, but I pointed out that Adam is our ancestor(from which we inherit our sinful nature) and Jesus isn't.


Also in britian somewhere they put there potatoes in "hell" to preseve them over the winter.

Interesting. I believe there's a city in the northern US named "Hell." A friend told me every year the weather channel really announces it when it snows there, they say, "Hell has frozen over!" :D

Agape,


What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

To have the very thing he wants most, love. I would like to see some scripture that stands up to scrutiny that supports your position.

Evangelion
June 18th, 2002, 09:00 AM
Cirisme -


I believe there's a city in the northern US named "Hell."

Funny, I always believed that this applied to the entire South.

My mistake.

:o

cirisme
June 18th, 2002, 09:08 AM
ROFL, ev! You're killing me...! :)

Evangelion
June 18th, 2002, 09:10 AM
Hey, it wasn't that good.

Really.

:o

Evangelion
June 18th, 2002, 09:11 AM
Tell you what, though - there is one place in the South that I'd really love to see, and that's New Orleans.

I have a strange fascination with Cajun culture.

:)

cirisme
June 18th, 2002, 09:23 AM
I have a strange fascination with Cajun culture.

My brother thinks that too, but I'm pretty sure it's just burnt.

:)

agape
June 18th, 2002, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
Agape,

>>>What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

cirisme>>To have the very thing he wants most, love. I would like to see some scripture that stands up to scrutiny that supports your position.So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

IMHO--anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love and heart of God.

AVmetro
June 18th, 2002, 10:37 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by cirisme
Agape,

>>>What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

cirisme>>To have the very thing he wants most, love. I would like to see some scripture that stands up to scrutiny that supports your position.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

IMHO--anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love and heart of God.

Agape, your position is understandable, but only because you don't understand what you are saying. I'll explain tonight.

Agape, I still have a burden for you. <sorry about the rude comments ;) >.
If your willing to listen and dig ourselves out of the ad homien rut, I'd like to discuss the above matter with you...

God bless you Agape,
Jeremiah L.G.

Sealeaf
June 18th, 2002, 12:28 PM
I am known on this and several other boards as a joker and a trickster. I have put off my cap and bells for this post. In what I have to say below I am deadly serious.

Modern Physics has answered the question of Life Everlasting. We are living it now. One of the corollaries of the theory of relativity is the understanding that our perception of time is an illusion. Time is a dimension like length and width. It is not a series of events that are present and then gone. If I drive from Boston to New York, I perceive the country between as a series of events, mile after mile of highway, occasional rest stops, finally NY. But Boston is not gone because I no longer perceive it. That is how dimensions work. Yesterday is as real as today. I am always going to alive on 6/17/02. Forever. There is always going to be a World Trade Center standing on 9/10/2001. Forever.

So we can't escape everlasting existence. Oblivion is not an option. But as to whether we experience it as everlasting life or everlasting death, that is very much still a question.

Logic and science have taken us as far as they can at the present state of our knowledge. Beyond this I can only speculate based on some of the hints we have been given in nature and in the scriptures.

I think we will continue to be conscious beings, experiencing ourselves, even after the moment of "now" has passed. Why not, Boston is still a vibrant living city when I am not in it. It also seems likely that we will have a continuous awareness of self that includes our entire temporal dimension. We may already have this. The sensory "noise" of being in the current moment just drowns out the fainter awareness of all our past moments.

We may also already have trans-temporal senses but they don't give us much information for the same reason an astronomical telescope does not yield much information on a crowded subway. We don't need to occupy the same space as another thing to be aware of it. So why should we need to be in the same time as another person in order to aware of him? Once the noisy temporal "now" front has passed beyond our life times we may have the quiet and leisure to hear and see the real, four-dimensional world.

Will it be a bright world full of light and friends or a dark place of horror filled with fiends? All life requires energy. In the Now we get energy from the sun, directly as heat and indirectly as food from plants that store the sun's energy chemically. Trans-temporally the ultimate source of energy is God. If one has access to the energy of God then the post life existence is a warm, bright and satisfied one. With energy you can do things, be active, experience, communicate and explore. If one has no access to the God's energy (Grace?) then it is a dark, cold, hungry existence hoarding what little spiritual energy you have left from life. You can perceive little beyond yourself. You can't move or act. You might as well be buried "alive" in a dark hole in the ground. Death Everlasting.

It may be no coincidence that ghosts are experienced as psychic cold spots. In the pagan orient ghosts are pictured as starving. The pagan Norse peoples pictured Hell as a cold place. The Greek tradition sees death as a dark experience. Dark. Cold. Hungry.

Interesting that the Hebrew vision is of the rubbish heap. Discarded, found to be worthless, of no value, useless to God.

It is the nature of trash heaps that they attract scavengers. I think we should be very afraid of the roaches, rats and feral dogs that are the wildlife of the spiritual dump. We would have that little bit of spiritual energy left over from life. It might smell tasty to spiritual entities who roam the four-dimensional wasteland cut off from the power of the Godhead.
C.S. Lewis hinted at the food shortage in hell in "The Screwtape Letters".

Horrible as this vision is, what sort of a "Loving God" would inflict it on His children? The answer must be, one who has no choice. For some reason He can't just make us never have been born. Must be the universe is not set up that way. Oblivion would be much kinder. If He could do that He could have unmade Satan, saving a world of grief. It must be very unpleasant for God. If any of you have had the experience of raising a child who becomes addicted to hard drugs, you may have an inkling of what it is like. How do you, in love, deal with a child who wrecks your home, steals your TV and stereo to sell for drug money, steals from his brothers and sisters and destroys the environment they need and have a right to? Eventually, you cut him off. You have to, in simple justice to his siblings who are not addicted.

Thank you, for your indulgence of this unusually long post. It was a serious issue that deserved a serious answer.

agape
June 18th, 2002, 12:56 PM
"Gehenna" in Greek, which is "ghi-hinnom" in Hebrew, is also translated "hell" but is not the grave (hades or sheol).

Gehenna is the place of "destruction," hell fire. The word comes from the valley of Hinnom of the dead.

The most accurate translation of "hades" and "sheol" would be "gravedom." Gravedom is the state in which all dead dwell; it not a "qeber, a spot where the body is buried on land or sea. The Biblical description of gravedom (the kingdom of all those in the grave--the dead), "sheol" or "hades," is a place where there is no remembrance.

cirisme
June 18th, 2002, 01:20 PM
Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response. You're only repeating what o2 has already said. If you want my response, look at pages 1-5.

Thanks,
-AJ

agape
June 18th, 2002, 02:06 PM
Those who will be cast into the lake of fire will perish, be destroyed. They brought this destruction upon themselves by rejecting the righteousness of God. God knows there is absolutely no hope for them and He will not make them obedient to Him for He never overrides one's freedom of will.

They will all perish. The point I'm making is that there is absolutely no purpose for eternal suffering. Our God just doesn't work that way. Not if you know Him.

However, putting God is love and light...aside, the Scriptures themselves, when rightly divided and all scripture pertaining to the same topic are viewed and examined, make it very plain that all those who refused salvation shall not be tortured for all eternity but will absolutely, beyond any shadow of doubt, die the second death which will be for all eternity. We either have eternal life or eternal death and of which either is each individual's choice by the freedom of his/her will.

One cannot die the second death which the Word makes clear will occur, and still be alive.

The second death is the lake of fire, Gehenna, a place of total destruction.

Revelation 20:14,15:
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and Hades are totally and permanently done away and destroyed in the lake of fire. And those who were not found written in the book of life (eternal) were also cast into the lake of fire, everlasting desruction, destroyed...

cirisme
June 18th, 2002, 03:45 PM
God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20.

Dude-eronomy
June 18th, 2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by cirisme


Adam is our ancestor, Jesus is not.

:)

Oh come on, cirisme! I'm not making it up -- Paul says it: (1 Corinthians 15:22) "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

You, my friend, are quibbling. :mad:

agape
June 18th, 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by cirisme
God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20. You have just demonstrated a prime example of "privately interpreting" the Word of Truth.

Thanks cirisme..:rolleyes:

AVmetro
June 18th, 2002, 07:55 PM
Hey Agape,



What purpose does it serve an all loving and all good God, to have those who refused His love and goodness and have denied themselves eternal life in His presence, to suffer for all eternity.? What is there to be gained by anyone?

Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice. You seem to be basing a lot on the fact that you don’t understand why a “hell” would be necessary. One misconception you must put aside is the assumption that God does ‘sends people to hell’. This statement is far too generalized. It gives the mental image of God stoking a big fire with handfuls of people at random :rolleyes: . It is specifically the sinner who turns away the free salvation offered. When a man turns aside God’s salvation he is in effect turning aside God himself saying ‘I don’t want that..’. Sin must be punished or God is not just. You can’t have a just God who does not punish. Only Christ can satisfy that justice. If you refuse atonement, you of your own accord accept the punishment. If the sin is never atoned for then it is in turn never justified, and therefore must be eternally punished. The principle is totally understandable and just.




So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

There is indeed NO darkness in God at all. Agape, you have to realize the principles you are implying. Let’s say there is no hell. What is the next step down. Next thing you know people will accuse God of ‘not being love’ because of something else that irks them. Let’s take the following passage:

“If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue here husband from his assailant, and reaches out and seizes him by his *********** , you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity.” Deut25:11-12

Now, am I to say “A God of love would command no such thing, I won’t believe it”.. Is that validated? No. Agape, God is a God of love. However justice must at the same time be satisfied. Requiring payment for sin is in no wise a deterrent to a loving nature.




As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The point of the scripture is to demonstrate that sin naturally brings death.
Yes, agape, but does the death atone for the sin itself? Why then are we still paying for the sin of Adam? Why did Adam’s sin not end at his death? We die because of the sin, that is the wages paid, but why do we have scriptures such as the following: Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.” Sin is a disease. A disease spreads and kills, but is only stopped when the vaccine is applied. Only Christ can atone for the sin of the world. Those outside of Christ must continue to pay the punishment. You must be safe “in” Christ to survive the day when God carries out his final wrath on evil.




The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

I think your taking those verses in a different way in which they were intended. The ashes are symbolic of the victory for example etc…
Let’s take Heb9:27 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment..”
Why is it that judgment comes after death if death is the ultimate punishment for sin? Death is the product of Adam’s sin. If not for Adam we would have never died.

Let’s see if it is flesh specifically that is to “judged’. Let us remember that flesh is nothing without the soul behind it.
Take for example Satan. This is a good point to concentrate on as it nullifies quite a few oppositions to “hell”.
Does God love Satan? No. He is likened unto Saul; “2 Samuel 7:15
But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.
Is Satan of flesh and blood as man? No.

Look at the following passage:

2Pet2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell (Tartarus), putting them in gloomy dungeons to be held for judgement…..”

Spiritual beings are held accountable as well…..

Let’s take into consideration that Satan hates God. The last thing Satan wants is eternal life in the presence of God. He wants total unconscious ‘death’. Therefore, for all that Satan has done, from Eden on, is this his “punishment”. If I murder someone and am given a bowl of ice-cream as punishment, does that count? I think not!
Satan cannot receive the atonement of Christ. He must therefore be punished. Being that death does not specifically atone for sin, he must be punished eternally. That is justice. Pure and simple.

Refer back to that one post I made with all the scripture and you will in fact note that the ‘lake of fire’ was provided specifically for the devil. All others have merely, of their own accord, traveled to that destination.

I have more coming eventually when I get some time ;) .

God bless you Agape,
Jeremiah L.G.

BTW I’m NOT saying that “Hell” is a Dante-esque ‘nine levels of hell’ sort of place either. I am emphasizing the fact that the afterlife apart from God will be conscious where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth”….
Punishment. Satan will get what he rightfully deserves for leading the world away from God….

Jaltus
June 18th, 2002, 08:04 PM
Agape,

Gehenna is actually the refuse pit outside of Jerusalem.

If you think that Hades refers to a place of total forgetfulness, you may want to read Luke 16:19-31.

sojouner
June 18th, 2002, 11:29 PM
cirisme
<<Interesting. I believe there's a city in the northern US named "Hell." A friend told me every year the weather channel really announces it when it snows there, they say, "Hell has frozen over!" >>
Yep I heard that too , apparently When the Eagles did there world tour in 1995 that was the reason they "toured ".
For when they split before this tour they had said that hey wouldn't tour together again "till hell freezes over" :D
I don't know how true that comment is but it makes a good story !!

Evangelion Im going to update my church bulletins folder in my site soon Haven't for quite some time (like the middle of last year)
so got to do something about it :o

agape
June 19th, 2002, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Jaltus
Agape,

Gehenna is actually the refuse pit outside of Jerusalem.

If you think that Hades refers to a place of total forgetfulness, you may want to read Luke 16:19-31. I don't "think"it...God does.

Psalms 6:5:
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun

(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

There is no consciousness in death. If no consciousness, no remembrance. So I guess your problem is with God...not me.

Regarding Luke 16:19-31

Luke 16 contains the record of Lazarus in Abraham's bosom. This passage has been used to teach that immediately after death one is alive and is forthwith judged.

First of all we need to note that this passage is a "parable," which is a Figure of Speech.

A "parable"is a comparison by sustained resemblance. A parable is an extended simile; the resemblance is usually in one specific characteristic. The likeness or resemblance must always be sought from the essence of the entire context. The confusion and misunderstanding of the parable in Luke 16 lies in the Pharisaic beliefs.

Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

This passage in Luke 16 must be interpreted and understood in accordance with the great quantity of Scriptures. One cannot reject the one hundred clear passages and accept one seemingly contradictory one. Jesus could not have denied Ecclesiastes 9:4-6.

Jesus Christ could not have contradicted the of Word of God in John 11:11-14

(11) These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

(12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

(13) Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

(14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus could not have been more explicit when he said, "...Lazarus is dead."

Luke 14:14 also plainly teaches about death and resurrection.

"And thou shalt be blessed; for they [the dead, the lame, the blind,] cannot recompense thee; for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."

How could Jesus in one place talk about people being recompensed at the resurrection of the jest and yet teach there there is an "immediate" reward or punishment after death?

Luke 16 must be understood as a parable. The misunderstanding of Luke 16 has been read into it by people who try to "literalize" the parable. Jesus was simply addressing his illustration to an indicated group of people and was able to trap them in their own snare of belief--"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were not "literally" alive in hades. They, as all others, are literally dead until the resurrection. These three people were simply figuratively used to make a striking impact on the criticizing Pharisees.

agape
June 19th, 2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response.Then don't. :D

agape
June 19th, 2002, 05:31 AM
Originally posted by AVmetro Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice. No. You are confusing God's nature, which IS LOVE with His justiceness by leaving out His love. His nature of love and His justiceness go hand-in-hand. However, as I stated, the Scriptures, when rightly divided, viewed and examined as a whole, hell is not a continuous place of torture.

Why is it that judgment comes after death if death is the ultimate punishment for sin? Death is the product of Adam’s sin. If not for Adam we would have never died.The ultimate result of sin is the second death, which is permanent death...NO RESURRECTION.

God loved Lucifer before he tried to usurp His throne and was cast down as Satan/the Devil..."The Evil or Wicked One." God does not love evil. However, God does not hate Satan because God does not, figuratively speaking, have a hateful bone in His body." God cannot hate. Hate comes from the Devil. Whenever we see words such as; "God abhors." it is always a figure of speech called "anthropopatheia" or "condescensio," which means God who is Spirit and does not have emotions such as we do, condescends to our human level of understanding. He is communicating the greatness of the evil being done.

God did not literally "take His love from Saul." It is important to keep in mind that the OT is filled with "figures of speech" which are not to be taken in the literal sense. There are many passages in the OT which contain the figure "idiom of permission." Saul is the one who removed himself from God's love by turning away from Him and committed idolatry which is in Satan's realm. Saul disobeyed God and went to another source for guidance; namely, the "the prophetess of Endora."

The word "tartarus" is used once and once only.

II Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Tartarus denotes the bounds or limits of those evil spirits who will face judgment in the future which is to be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Let’s take into consideration that Satan hates God. The last thing Satan wants is eternal life in the presence of God.Exactly, that is why he will be destroyed in the lake of fire, along with those who also "will" not to be presence of God. Eternal death is certainly not a "bowl of ice cream."

God does not derive satisfaction from seeing anyone suffer. It's not in His all loving and all good nature to do so. Justice, is what falls upon those who reject the righteousness of God and they bring the negative results upon themselves. Again, God will not overstep anyone's freedom of will. If God says don't put your hand into the fire or it will get burnt, and you disobey Him and do the opposite, your hand will get burned. Those who rejected and disobeyed God will be destroyed in the lake of fire. It's their choice. Just as the Egyptians who went against God and chased the children of Israel and were killed when the sea closed up. They were trapped because they rebelled against God and should not have been there in the first place when God closed the gap.

To believe that God would allow such a horrible suffering as to be tormented forever is indeed, an inaccurate and misconstrued perception to have of an ALL LOVING AND ALL GOOD GOD...besides the fact that eternal torture is NOT biblically accurate.


Satan cannot receive the atonement of Christ. He must therefore be punished. Being that death does not specifically atone for sin, he must be punished eternally. That is justice. Pure and simple.The atonement of Christ was not for Satan. Satan/the Devil is a spirit being and he had already made his decision to usurp the throne of God. Redemption is for mankind...not evil spirits who will never seek forgiveness in the first place.

The lake of fire is most definitely reserved for the Devil, which is of his own accord along with all his followers, which they rightfully deserve. No problem there. However, what you fail to recognize is that the lake of fire is the second "death"...there is no consciousness in death. They will die the second death and will for all eternity have NO LIFE. Death, grave, sin, evil, wickedness, Satan and his followers will be UTTERLY DESTROYED..."Thus saith the Lord."

o2bwise
June 19th, 2002, 10:39 AM
Agape, you are confusing God’s love with God’s nature of justice.

This hits the jugular.

Many proponents of the doctrine of eternal conscious torment believe something that is vast in its implications. Which is this:

IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

Quite an admission. So also, quite a heresy.

Moreover, IF the way the cross saves is by the meeting of a price God demands, these two ideas are incompatible.


1. Christ satisfied the wages of sin (God's justice). This satisfaction includes an experience of horror that was perhaps a couple days long (if we include Gethsemane).

2. Eternal conscious suffering is the result of God's justice, an event which is eternal.

Apparently, the sufferings of the cross is woefully insufficient to satisfy the justice of God as applied to one group of people. All the while, the sufferings of the cross is sufficient as applied to another group (the redeemed).


cirisme, whom I won't dialogue with on theological matters for the same reason which prompts a post like:

Look, agape, your posts don't deserve a response.

believes eternal conscious torment has to do with something other than the satisfaction of God's justice. I have failed to understand his explanation (my own sense is that there really isn't one). But, anyway, cirisme asserts such a rationale.

Finally, if anyone believes the purpose of the cross is to satisfy a penalty God needs to mete out on sinners, the principle remains that it is incompatible with love. True, the scale is infinitely reduced (from infinite torture to finite torture), but the principle remains. God needs to be appeased.

The blood is not a currency paid to God to satisfy justice, it is a certain kind of revelation which, when applied to the sanctuary (mind of man) actually removes sin.

Tony (o2)

AVmetro
June 19th, 2002, 01:57 PM
IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

Total nonsense. Justice has nothing to take away from God's love. Justice is satisfied of the guilty parties own accord. God merely provided the options.

O2,Agape,

You are privately interpreting principles of God's love here.
Once again, am I to say that God does not "love" because he commands me to cut off a woman's hand as punishment. What about this:

"This is what the Lord Almighty says; 'I willl punish th Amalekites for what they did to Israel......Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels an donkeys." 1Sam15:2-3 -- I feel this is just. Neither do I feel it detracts from God's great love either. Why do I not have a problem with this contrary to you two. Open your eyes!

Agape, O2- The above scriptures I cited are used by people to deter from God's image of love. You are using no better logic...

God bless you both,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 19th, 2002, 08:33 PM
II Peter 2:4 “For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell [tartarosas], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment." Tartarus denotes the bounds or limits of those evil spirits who will face judgment in the future which is to be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Nice misquoting of scripture, Agape :down:. Verse 5 continues the point until verse nine...


2:5 and didn't spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly;
2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly;
2:7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked
2:8 (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):
2:9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;

o2,

IN ORDER FOR GOD TO BE JUST, HE MUST ACT CONTRARY TO LOVE.

So, when a parent spanks a child, the parent hates his child? Or, does the Ten Commandments prove God's hatred of the world?

agape(again),


Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.

And you have the nerve to say that I privately interpret scripture!?!?!?!:mad::mad:


You have just demonstrated a prime example of "privately interpreting" the Word of Truth.

Thanks cirisme..

So, are we literally dead, or are we dead in our sins? I challenge you to raise proof that my "interpretation":

God is life. When seperated from God, we no longer have the life that He has, but we, in a sense, "die." Like the many times the NT says "we who were dead in our sins." This does not mean we were gone into oblivion, it just means that we are away from true life... God! The same goes for Revelation 20.

...is wrong!


Psalms 6:5:
For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 146:4:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun

(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Notice, Agape that none of these verses say anything about a person being destroyed, just "nouns" being destroyed.


For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee(GOD): in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

You certainly don't think that someone completely seperated from everything is going to praise/remember God, do you?


His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Ecclesiastes 9 contradicts the Biblical idea of heaven? Why or why not?

agape
June 20th, 2002, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
Agape--Luke 16:14 indicates that this parable is addressed to the Pharisees. So Jesus wisely judged the Pharisees out of their own mouths, from their own vantage point, for the Pharisees believed in rewards and punishments immediately upon death as so many believe today. This parable does NOT say that Jesus believed in immediate rewards and punishment after death; that is what the "pharisees" believed. Jesus uses this parable to condemn the Pharisees and to catch them in their own erroneous beliefs.
[quote]And you have the nerve to say that I privately interpret scriptureWhen I know it's just your private interpretation. What I stated can be found in the context and in understanding what the Pharisees believed. Also, I gave a number of verses to prove my point. You stated that the second death means "to be dead in sins." This cannot be found in the places that mention the "second death" at all. Therefore, it is your "own" private interpretation.

So, are we literally dead, or are we dead in our sins? I challenge you to raise proof that my "interpretation"Does it say that the second death is referring to "dead in our sins?" You said it so you prove it with scripture. :):)

Notice, Agape that none of these verses say anything about a person being destroyed, just "nouns" being destroyed.Those verses were not posted to say anything about a person being destroyed. You stated that it was not true that those who die have no remembrance or as you put it "a place of forgetfulness." I think you need to read what I stated more carefully. I gave you scripture references which you still deny. It's right there in black and white and you say it doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Verses 5-7 of II Peter 2 speak about "destruction"...not eternal torture which is my whole point.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Ecclesiastes 9 contradicts the Biblical idea of heaven? Why or why not? What do you mean by this? What's your point? Please be more specific.

So, when a parent spanks a child, the parent hates his child? Or, does the Ten Commandments prove God's hatred of the world?Using the rod of correction as the Word explains it does not mean that the parent hates the child. However, if a parent put the child in place where he/she would suffer for all eternity, then I would say definitely yes...the parent hates the child. The ten commandments proves the righteousness of God. It is good not to steal, kill, covet...etc., there is no hate of the world? I find your questions rather illogical.

sojouner
June 20th, 2002, 02:23 AM
Regarding Luke 16:19-31

19 ¶ Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day:
20 and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table; yea, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.
23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.
27 And he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house;
28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 But Abraham saith, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one go to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, if one "RISE" from the dead.!!!!!!
The point of this whole parable is to do with ressurrection not wafting off to some place at death .
Where in scripture are we taught that we have an immortal soul?
What is the scriptural definition of a soul?
Genesis 2vs7 is the best place to start !
7 And the LORD <03068> God <0430> formed <03335> (8799) man <0120> of the dust <06083> of <04480> the ground <0127>, and breathed <05301> (8799) into his nostrils <0639> the breath <05397> of life <02416>; and man <0120> became a living <02416> soul <05315>.

The numbers within the <> signs are strongs concordance numbers. :D

Interesting to note that Man wasn't alive until God breathed into him and he became a living soul (breathing creature).
I liken it to a motor bike , you've got the petrol and the machinery already to go all you need to do is kick it over (breath of life )to get the machinery working .(kick it into life)
Also note that when Adam was told not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil .

16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

In vs 17 the 'thou shalt surely die" in the original language means Dying thou shalt surely die .
That is a curse not a blessing For if when we die we whizz of to heaven Death is then a blessing not a curse and God also has lied to us .
What is the Christian hope then?
read chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians
In my circles it is known as the ressurection chapter!!
1 thessalonians 3 vs 13 :
¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What are we to be comforted with ? The fact of the ressurrection ! Jesus was the first fruits we at the appointed time shall be Ressurrected (if we happen to be asleep at the time ) and we shall meet him in the air and then we shall go with him to the New Jerusalem Which will be parked on top of M.T Zion in Israel!!

Do souls die?
Ezekiel 18v4 :
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
And also 18vs20 :
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Also from these we can deduce that Souls are not a "devine spark" For they die (cease to exist , kaput , expired , dead as a dodo ,not alive anymore , 6 feet under pushing up daisies , kicked the bucket , bought the farm ETC...):D :D
More cogitative material for you to chew the cud over

geralduk
June 20th, 2002, 08:08 AM
Originally posted by agape
So you are saying that God's purpose in allowing eternal torture is so He could have love?!! And this makes sense to you? Is this how God wants to be love? Actually, the entire Word supports my statement. God IS LOVE...God IS LIGHT, AND IN HIM IS NO DARKNESS AT ALL. The reason God would not allow eternal torture is because He loves even His enemies. God can only give that which He is: Love and Light.

As I have already posted and as the Scriptures state:

God clearly says in Romans 6:23 that "that wages of sin is DEATH.

The Bible plainly teaches that flesh and blood is subject to combustion and death (Hebrews 9:27; Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Malachi 4:3 says that in the end the ASHES of the wicked will be under the feet of the righteous. The wicked will be destroyed and will die that death, the second death, from which there will never be a resurrection (Revelation 20:6, 14).

IMHO--anyone who believes God would allow those who rejected Him and His Son Jesus Christ, to endure such horrendous suffering for all eternity, neither knows nor understands the love and heart of God.

Heaven would be HELL and a torment for the wicked!
Just a thought.
The judgemnt of the wicked is ALSO out of LOVE.
HELL IS reserved FOR THE DEVIL and all his angels or messengers.
Therefore if you are not FOR God,ultimately you are for the devil and will in the finmnal analysis be doing his will not Gods.
Therfofre they who do so will also finish up where he will.
The scriptures also tell us that sinn seperates us from God.
From WHom EVERY good and perfect gift cometh from.
Therefore the torture is not from God.
But from unrequited need or appetite.
For if man denies Him from whom all the good things he enjoys on this life are taken fro granted.
when he dies how then can he reccieve from God that which all his life he has rejected the scource from which they have come!?
So he will be thirsty,but have nothing to quench his thirst.
he will be hungry but have nothing to feed on.
For being dead he has no body nor 'a 'place for him'
How then can he eat or drink!?
For by feeding ONLY the flesh he neglected the spirit.
So when he dies even what he thought he had shall be taken away from him.
And this is not ecvebn covering the basest of sins and there rightfull judgement!
If by rejecting God and He whom He has sent you are rejecting then Gods mercy and grace that you may NOT end there.
Caine REJECTED Christ and so found no place of repentance.

Herein is |Love not that we loevd God but that God loved us while we were yet sinners and died for us.
BUT if we do not aCCEPT Christ how is then that LOVE manifested to US PERSONAALY!
IT ISNT"Even though God loves us,yet we do not KNOW that love or mercy untill we know and reccccive Christ aand ther salvation of God.
The love manifested to the "WORLD" is not the same as manifested to His childen!
Nor is it the same of His children who walk far from HIM and those who walk CLOSE to Him.
For even though It is clear "having loved them He loved them to the end"
Yet with all that there was ONE "whom Jesus loved"!
Namely the one who leant on His breast at the last supper.
Who was not "deceived" by Judas's aparant love of the poor.
And out of all the Apostles was the only one who could say "WHO is it Lord?" NOT..... "Is it I Lord"?
So the LOVE of God is manifested to all in differnet ways.
To the wicked He has no pleasure inthe downfall.But for loves sake will judge them.
Then will come the WAILING WHICH IS THE DISPARE.
Then will come the WEEPING which is the sorrow of a missed opertunity.
The will come the knashing of teath in HATRED AND FRUSTRATION.
But to no avail.and they will be cast into a lake of fire. where there will be a consiouis awareness of what has been done and missed.
That is NOT Gods doing but mens.
Jesus said I will not judge you but MY WORDS Will.
It si our response to the Word and the DOING of them is the thing.
As it was in the beginning.
He gave Adam and Eve EVERY good thing,INCLUDING the KNOWLEDGE of what WAS good and evil.
But they rejected it.
and so sin came into the world and death by sin.
Man shall not live by bread alone,but by EVERY word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.

o2bwise
June 20th, 2002, 12:17 PM
Hi AV,


Total nonsense. Justice has nothing to take away from God's love. Justice is satisfied of the guilty parties own accord. God merely provided the options.

So...

If one "merely" provides "the options," one must therefore be love?

What you consider the options that God provides, are unjust and are unlovely.

I want to be on record in stating that I believe the position I hold is biblical. To reason the unloveliness of a theologically incorrect position is not unfair ground to tread. Nor is it unfair to reason the loveliness of one's own position, especially as it is grounded in scripture.

The doctrine of eternal conscious torment is:
1. Unbiblical
2. Unjust
3. Unlovely

Or to put another way:
1. satanic deception
2. Unfair
3. Hateful

In His Love,

Tony (o2)

agape
June 20th, 2002, 12:33 PM
geralduk

I guess what I posted is either being quickly scanned or totally misread. No one seems to be getting the point I'm making and so I get responses harping on scripture that has nothing to do with my question. :rolleyes:

Will someone please get it straight.

God is Love,

He will not allow ETERNAL TORTURE.

Besides the truth that He love, the Scriptures teach there will be NO ETERNAL TORTURE because they will be DESTROYED.

cirisme
June 20th, 2002, 05:21 PM
No one seems to be getting the point I'm making

I get it alright... you're just wrong.


God is Love,

He will not allow ETERNAL TORTURE.

This is opinion, not fact. Scripture PLEASE.

cirisme
June 20th, 2002, 05:23 PM
Does it say that the second death is referring to "dead in our sins?" You said it so you prove it with scripture.

Really nice straw man, agape. That's NOT what I said.

geralduk
June 21st, 2002, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by agape
geralduk

I guess what I posted is either being quickly scanned or totally misread. No one seems to be getting the point I'm making and so I get responses harping on scripture that has nothing to do with my question. :rolleyes:

Will someone please get it straight.

God is Love,

He will not allow ETERNAL TORTURE.

Besides the truth that He love, the Scriptures teach there will be NO ETERNAL TORTURE because they will be DESTROYED.

perhaps its becasue your very phrase is wrong to start with?

The scripture uses the word TORMENT.

That is NOT TORTURE.

TORMENT is a selfinduced thing.
Torture is a cruel, pain inflicting act to a certain end or for its own enjoyment.

The souls in torment in Hell is not God torturing them.
They are only in the place if that si the word,that is left for them and which all there lives they have always wanted.
Away from God!
The 'torment' is from knowing how big a mistake you have made and it cannot be rectified for ever!

As for your contention that there is NO such place.
You base it on your own reasoning and not on the Word of God.
Wether you or I like it or not It is a real and certain place.
Men take a false comfort from the lies of the devil or they seek to give a false hope in that you cAN BE PURGED BY THOSE FLAMES but they twist the scriptures to thier own destruction.
Destruction is RUIN.
Where soemthing is so RUINED that it is unrepareable AND INCAPABLE to function or be what it was designed to be.

cirisme
June 21st, 2002, 08:56 AM
Thanks, geralduk, that's what I've been trying to say all along.

:)

cirisme
June 21st, 2002, 04:38 PM
Bumpity.. bump bump.

AVmetro
June 21st, 2002, 10:07 PM
:D :) ;) :p :o

agape
June 21st, 2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by geralduk
perhaps its becasue your very phrase is wrong to start with?

The scripture uses the word TORMENT.

That is NOT TORTURE.The Greek word for "torment" is "basanos," which means,

1) a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to
test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the
streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced
to divulge the truth
3) torture, torment, acute pains
3a) of the pains of a disease
3b) of those in hell after death

The souls in torment in Hell is not God torturing them.
They are only in the place if that si the word,that is left for them and which all there lives they have always wanted.
Away from God!If it is God who allows their torture or torment to go on for all eternity as His so-called punishment, then it is ultimately God who is torturing them.

The 'torment' is from knowing how big a mistake you havemade and it cannot be rectified for ever!Chapter and verse please.

As for your contention that there is NO such place.
You base it on your own reasoning and not on the Word of God.Yeah right...like all those scriptures I posted which clearly show all will be "DESTROYED." Please go study the scriptures more thoroughly and more accurately. All you are giving me is your own personalized scriptures. :rolleyes:

agape
June 21st, 2002, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by cirisme
Really nice straw man, agape. That's NOT what I said. That's exactly what you said. Go re-read your own post please. You said--"So, are we literally dead, or are we dead in our sins?"

By the way, I'm still waiting for proof text that tells us those who will die the second death will be in torment, torture for all eternity. :rolleyes:

AVmetro
June 21st, 2002, 10:35 PM
If it is God who allows their torture or torment to go on for all eternity as His so-called punishment, then it is ultimately God who is torturing them.

It is ultimately God who is punishing them...

I am going to ask one more time concerning punishment under Mosaic Law......is it "fair" is it "torture"....The ONLY difference is the length of time.

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev20:10

This is justice..not "torture".....

Agape, I understand you're situation, but it is not biblical. You are clearly attributing the wrong principles behind the situation here.


God bless,
Jeremiah L.G.

agape
June 21st, 2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by cirisme

This is opinion, not fact. Scripture PLEASE. God is Love is the truth...not an opinion as you seem to only give. Also, they will be utterly destroyed is the truth of God's Word...NOT...eternal torment which is another one of your "opinions."

Still waiting for proof text to show that the second death means torment for all eternity.

agape
June 21st, 2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by geralduk
Heaven would be HELL and a torment for the wicked!
Just a thought.
The judgemnt of the wicked is ALSO out of LOVE.
HELL IS reserved FOR THE DEVIL and all his angels or messengers.Etc., etc., etc., A lot of words, but nothing that proves the second death means eternal conscious torment.

cirisme
June 22nd, 2002, 09:49 AM
Being cut off from God IS total destruction...


He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power -2 Thess. 1:8,9


In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7

Let me repeat it, seperation from God is destruction. Complete destruction.

agape
June 22nd, 2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by cirisme
Being cut off from God IS total destruction...



Let me repeat it, seperation from God is destruction. Complete destruction. I agree, being totally destroyed in the lake of fire is being cut off from God forever. I'm glad you finally caught on. :)

AVmetro
June 22nd, 2002, 03:52 PM
Whoa! Calm down little smiley dude..ok..ok..I'll nip it..;)

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Rev20:10

OK, Just to let you people know in advance, I AM baiting here...:)

cirisme
June 22nd, 2002, 06:15 PM
I agree, being totally destroyed in the lake of fire is being cut off from God forever. I'm glad you finally caught on.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.... that's what I've been saying all along. It is you who finally caught on.

;)

cirisme
June 23rd, 2002, 09:48 AM
Hey, I just realized that we can't have a discussion where we're not arguing, agape! Now, what should we argue about!?!

;)

agape
June 23rd, 2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by cirisme


Whoa, whoa, whoa.... that's what I've been saying all along. It is you who finally caught on.

;) So you are saying that when the evildoers who rejected God and His Son, Jesus Christ are thrown into the lake of fire they are totally destroyed...forever dead...no consciousness at all..no life or existence whatsoever...right?

cirisme
June 23rd, 2002, 02:38 PM
No, they are completely cut off from life itself.. God. Thus, "destroyed."

AVmetro
June 23rd, 2002, 02:42 PM
Don't worry Cirsime. I'm about to end it all.....Tee hee..;)...

cirisme
June 23rd, 2002, 02:52 PM
How? I certainly hope that you're on my side ;)

agape
June 23rd, 2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by cirisme
No, they are completely cut off from life itself.. God. Thus, "destroyed." I gather this is taken from the Book of Cirisme, Chapter: private interpretation, verse:.
take your pick. :D

cirisme
June 23rd, 2002, 03:46 PM
My real name isn't 2 Thess, nor is it 1, 8, or 9. Good thing too, it would take me forever to sign checks. :p

agape
June 24th, 2002, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
My real name isn't 2 Thess, nor is it 1, 8, or 9. Good thing too, it would take me forever to sign checks.If it were you're name, don't bother getting your pen out cuz you wouldn't be around or alive to sign any checks at all. :p

Let's not forget these verses:

Revelation 20-15:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

(13) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

(15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."

When verses speak of the "death" of the wicked, it is frequently this second death that is being referred to.

After the Great White Judgment, death is abolished. In the Everlasting Kingdom, there will be no more death. Praise God!

Those who partake of the second death have no hope of a resurrection for they will all be face the final death and cease to exist altogether.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.

The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

II Peter 2:6:
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

You have not supplied any verses at all that support your theory of the wicked being punished by a conscious eternal separation from the presence of the Lord. The question is "how" are they separated, or removed from...? From viewing "all" other verses, they are dismissed by being cast into the lake of fire where they are totally destroyed and consumed and nothing remains but ashes and smoke. Thus, any kind of eternal conscious suffering is not based on Scripture but on one's own private interpretation.

As I said, cirisme, put away your pen. ;)

cirisme
June 24th, 2002, 10:54 AM
Question...


In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7

Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?


He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power -2 Thess. 1:8,9

Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.


The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

All of which means seperated from God...


As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, -Ephesians 2:1


When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins -Colossians 2:13

Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.

Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.


The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."

Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)

Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.

AVmetro
June 24th, 2002, 08:04 PM
2Thess 1:9 The word 'olethros' translated as destruction, carries the meaning of 'sudden ruin' as in being separated or at loss to all one has....

And........

....Let me address a few points…..

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Let’s think here. Why should I not be afraid to die, but be afraid of him who can make me dead?? Doesn’t make a lot of sense huh? :rolleyes: The purpose of this passage is to demonstrate what the martyrs were to go through. Early Christians were made to sit in iron chairs heated up. I would think that having your skin boil off would be much more painful that instantaneous annihilation. So why am I to fear. Because the ‘hell’ is continuous torment.

Let’s also Read:

Matt25:46 “And these will go away in eternal ‘aionios’ punishment ‘kolasis’, but the righteous into eternal life”

In case you want to debate the meaning of ‘punishment’ ……

The authoritative Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament by William Arndt and F. Wilbur Gingrich says the meaning of kolasis in Matt 25:46 is ‘punishment’. This meaning is confirmed by Moulton and Milliagan’s The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament, Joseph Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, etc….

“The punishment spoken of in Matt25:46 cannot be defined as a non-suffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Punishment must entail suffering. Suffering in turn entails consciousness.

Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.

Let us consider another point. The evidence that there are several degrees of annilihation. This denotes definite punishment, for one is either annihilated or one is not. There are not degrees of annihilation. Look at the following passages:

Matt10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb10:29; Rev20:11-15; 22:12 etc…. Degrees of punishment is not compatible with annihilation……

Btw is it just me or does the word eternal denote punishment in itself?

God bless,
Jeremiah L.G

cirisme
June 25th, 2002, 08:42 AM
AV,

Btw is it just me or does the word eternal denote punishment in itself?

That's what I thought. And just in case your post wasn't enought to satisfy agape...


Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. -Revevlation 20:11-15

Note that agape had argued that the unbelievers were thrown in and destroyed...


The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."

But, wait! What's this in verse 15...


And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

??? What's this "the" doing in here?!? This indicates that the lake of fire is the same lake of fire that Satan is thrown into in verse 10, and the same lake of fire that the beast and false prophet are thrown into in chapter 19, verse 20. This lake of fire is described as being everlasting.

cirisme
June 25th, 2002, 08:52 AM
2 Peter 2:6!!?!?! I knew I heard that one before, you've misquoted the context, agape, numerous times, you always fail to metion verse nine...


...then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment...

The day of judgment being the Great White Throne Judgment above.

This is being highly dishonest, agape. You would enjoy much greater credibility if you wouldn't take verses out of context.

agape
June 25th, 2002, 10:12 AM
Av,

None of the verses you have supplied show a "degree of punishment" in the lake of fire.

II Thessalonians 2:9--The unbelievers will pay justice, as paying the required penalty which is right in the judicial sense. Agelong destruction is a lifetime duration of destruction which is that which ruins and slays, disaster with death, everlasting or eternal in the sense of this destruction never changing once it begins but will end when the time of their life ends away from the face, countenance or presence of the Lord jesus Christ and away from the glory of his strength which he received from God when He raised him up from the dead.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.Those who believe what God says, which is also what Jesus says, will live eternally at the future time even though now they may be killed by others, they might physically die; but those who refuse to believe God's Word will die permanently at a future time even though at the present time they may be the ones who kill you and they stay living physically.

This verse does NOT SAY they are to fear because hell is a continuous place of torture. This is totally your own private interpretation which you do so well. There's not even a clue in Matthew 10:28 that states what you say it does. It says who is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.

Matthew 25:46:
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

They will go away into everlasting punishment means "agelong" punishment as I explained concerning II Thes. 2:9. In the future when judgment is handed out, they will be punished as the Word states, which is to be thrown into the lake of fire and to be consumed and disintergrated and to die the second and permanent death where there is no resurrection. They do NOT SUFFER for all eternity. The Scriptures DO NOT TEACH THIS. You are fallaciously mishandling the scriptures just to prove your own personal and erroneous beliefs.

Matthew 10:15--It will be more bearable (comparatively more endurable, more able to hold itself in the upright position, to put up with, more sustaining) for the earth/land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment (judgment day, the time period when judgment is pronounced) than for that city where people do not accept you neither hear your words – none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment.

Luke 12:47-48--This refers only to the initial indictment and does not correspond with the ultimate destiny of the unbeliever. The ultimate destiny is represented by the phrase, "cut them in two and shall assign to them a place with the unbelievers (hypocrites in the parallel passage at Matthew 24:51), where there is no difference in location or experience.

John 15:22--If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

What's your point??

Hebrews 10:29-- We need to remain within the context of the this chapter. The whole chapter deals with how under the old covenant there were yearly sacrifices made using animals for the forgiveness of sins. These sacrifices are no longer needed because Jesus Christ was THE SACRIFICE for sins once and for all. It is a one-time deal. To willfully sin, after knowing this and to say it still is not sufficient they put themselves again under the yoke of bondage, the law. They go back to old traditions or an Old Covenant relationship, and deny themselves the privilege of walking in that which Christ fully accomplished for them on the cross. Those who believe that Jesus Christ paid the full price and penalty for their sins are not fearful of condemnation or judgment as those who do not believe. The Christian Jews who did not believe that Christ did it all, as a result can foresee nothing but judgment… a judgment that is not forthcoming!...but nonetheless this is what they "look for."

Verse 27 says the "raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. " As it states in I Corinthians 3:10-17, the "fire" will NOT consume disobedient Christians, because they are not the enemies of God (Romans 8:37-39), but it will test the quality of their works. If a believer's work does not "pass muster," it (the work) will be burned up and the believer will suffer loss (of rewards). The believer will be saved but only "as one escaping through the flames" (I Corinthians 3:16). The "enemies of God" who will be consumed in the fire are people who were not saved, the Devil and devil spirits (Matthew 25:41-46; Revelation 20:10,15).

None of the verses you selected have anything to do with "different degrees of punishment" in the lake of fire. All those whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life will be judged accordingly which is to be thrown into the lake of fire which is to die the second death. All those whose names are written in the Book of Life will have eternal life. Those whose sins have not been remitted by Christ will pay the ultimate penalty which is death w/o any hope of a resurrection. They will die the second death and that's all there is to it. All those who are saved have eternal life and each one will receive rewards according to their good works.

Btw is it just me or does the word eternal denote punishment in itself?Only if the word "destruction" follows after it, which is the second death and which is for all eternity...no more existence or life forever and ever....

agape
June 25th, 2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
AV,
??? What's this "the" doing in here?!? This indicates that the lake of fire is the same lake of fire that Satan is thrown into in verse 10, and the same lake of fire that the beast and false prophet are thrown into in chapter 19, verse 20. This lake of fire is described as being everlasting. As I previously stated; you need to learn "how to study the Scriptures" so you don't come up with what you have all along...pure speculation and private interpretation.

What I see is someone who is so desperate to be right that all the many clear verses that explicitly show they will all be DESTROYED....VANISHED....etc., are completely and purposely ignored.

Both you and Av are REAL good at fallaciously mishandling the Word of Truth. :rolleyes:

agape
June 25th, 2002, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cirisme
2 Peter 2:6!!?!?! I knew I heard that one before, you've misquoted the context, agape, numerous times, you always fail to metion verse nine...

The more you say, cirisme, the more you show how wrong you are in rightly dividing God's Word.

II Peter 2:6-9:
And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds)

(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

The Lord knows "how" to deliver the "godly"...those who seek to walk in the righteous ways of God and to "keep" them from temptations. He also "reserves" or "keeps" the UNJUST, unto (with a view towards) the "future" day of judgment, to be "punished"...thrown into the future lake of fire, which is to die the "second death"...to exist no more.

Verse 9 confirms what I've been saying all along and it disproves what you've been saying all along, which is you taking scripture out of context, which is being highly dishonest. You would enjoy much greater credibility if you wouldn't take verses out of context. :D

Like I keep saying, please learn "how to study God's Word." ;)

cirisme
June 25th, 2002, 12:37 PM
What I see is someone who is so desperate to be right

Don't put yourself down like that, it's not that bad... ;)


that all the many clear verses that explicitly show they will all be DESTROYED....VANISHED....etc., are completely and purposely ignored.

I haven't ignored them. In fact, I have addressed them numerous times. You have yet to respond, but that's because your private interpretation can't stand up to context. :rolleyes:


Like I keep saying, please learn "how to study God's Word."

Perhaps we should start a fund to send you to that class. We should also set up a fund to goto the class "Learn how to stop being so hypocritical." :rolleyes:

agape
June 25th, 2002, 08:32 PM
cirisme...how old are you? I can't help thinking you are just a school kid by the way you act. You are being so childish and immature.

I won't be responding to you any longer unless you change your behavior and GROW UP. :)

cirisme
June 26th, 2002, 08:12 AM
Agape, if I have come off that way to you, I apologize. Nothing I said was intended to be that way, I do hope you'll continue in our discussion. I have enjoyed it much...

:)

AVmetro
June 26th, 2002, 04:46 PM
Agape,

You failed to address the entire argument. You "explained" everlasting, but you did not explain everlasting in conjuction with 'punishment'. I have already told you what punishment must entail in order to classify as punishment....the passage states that the punishment is to be 'everlasting'...please clarify.

Also...." none of these people will be allowed by God to escape from this judgment. "....this has nothing to do with 'destruction'..

Also...Dan12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the eaerth will awake: some to everlastign life, others to shame and everlastign contempt." Agape how can someone experience 'contempt' when they are merely unconscious? O2 tried to explain this away in stating that those in heaven will know contempt for the dead, or something along those lines...however, there will be no 'contempt' in heaven. Therefore what could this mean?

Also....Why is it that you take something symbolic such as "calfs trampling the ashes..." as literal and something symbolic such as "eternal torment" as figurative?? :confused:...Just asking..

God bless you agape,
Jeremiah L.G.

cirisme
June 26th, 2002, 04:59 PM
Also note that "vanished" does not mean "destroyed". Ie, Elzabeth Smart, the girl that was kidnapped in Salt Lake City, vanished. We know HOW she vanished(kidnapped) but they don't know where he is... so vanished might be an appropriate term.(since we know HOW it happened kidnapped would also work, but that's irrelevant ;)) The thing is, agape has been arguing that we(AV and I) are using "private interpretation". Even though the word VANISH means essentially "cut off"(which is what hell is all about) agape has repeatedly used her/his own interpretation that this must mean "wiped out completely."

AVmetro
June 26th, 2002, 05:15 PM
I wish someone would address that long list of scripture I gave a while back out the NWT....;)

cirisme
June 27th, 2002, 08:56 AM
I forgot, what page was that on?

agape
June 27th, 2002, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
Also note that "vanished" does not mean "destroyed". Ie, Elzabeth Smart, the girl that was kidnapped in Salt Lake City, vanished. We know HOW she vanished(kidnapped) but they don't know where he is... so vanished might be an appropriate term.(since we know HOW it happened kidnapped would also work, but that's irrelevant ;)) The thing is, agape has been arguing that we(AV and I) are using "private interpretation". Even though the word VANISH means essentially "cut off"(which is what hell is all about) agape has repeatedly used her/his own interpretation that this must mean "wiped out completely." Oh Are the wicked going to be kidnapped by God? Is He going to perform a "disappearing act" so no one can find them? This is your description of hell? Talk about stretchhhhing!...and "privately interpreting" scripture. You take it way, way beyond the limits...and you've made a hell that God doesn't even know anyhing about. :rolleyes:

The wicked will vanish all right...right into the lake of fire where they will be cut off, destroyed, put an end to, exterminated, consumed, cease to exist and "wiped out completely!"

cirisme
June 27th, 2002, 11:19 AM
Oh Are the wicked going to be kidnapped by God? Is He going to perform a "disappearing act" so no one can find them? This is your description of hell? Talk about stretchhhhing!...and "privately interpreting" scripture. You take it way, way beyond the limits...and you've made a hell that God doesn't even know anyhing about.

Nice straw man, agape. Mind twisting my words any further? :rolleyes:

cirisme
June 27th, 2002, 04:32 PM
The wicked will vanish all right...right into the lake of fire where they will be cut off, destroyed, put an end to, exterminated, consumed, cease to exist and "wiped out completely!"

I agree with "cut-off", because that's what the Bible says, but the Bible does NOT say the rest of those things. Look @ who's using private interpretation now! :rolleyes:

AV, any ideas on why people like Agape and o2 always resort to ad-hominem, hypocriticalism(if that's a word ;)), straw men, and private interpretationism instead of the holy word of God?:confused:??

AVmetro
June 27th, 2002, 05:35 PM
Topic Review (Newest First)


cirisme quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wicked will vanish all right...right into the lake of fire where they will be cut off, destroyed, put an end to, exterminated, consumed, cease to exist and "wiped out completely!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I agree with "cut-off", because that's what the Bible says, but the Bible does NOT say the rest of those things. Look @ who's using private interpretation now!

AV, any ideas on why people like Agape and o2 always resort to ad-hominem, hypocriticalism(if that's a word ), straw men, and private interpretationism instead of the holy word of God???




Dunno. So far, in contrast to what Ev etc..thinks, my faith has yet to be challenged.....I guess some people don't have faith in their religion and get a little aggravated.....;)

God bless you Cirisme,
God bless you Agape, :up:
Jeremiah L.G.

o2bwise
June 28th, 2002, 07:11 AM
cirisme,


AV, any ideas on why people like Agape and o2 always resort to ad-hominem, hypocriticalism(if that's a word ), straw men, and private interpretationism instead of the holy word of God???

Thanks for cementing my conviction that discussing theology with you is a complete waste of time.

cirisme
June 28th, 2002, 08:14 AM
I would think it's a wate of time if I were you, too. I mean, really. You have surpass tons and tons of evidence, re-write scripture, come up with new names to call everybody who disagrees with you, create straw men, all the while trying to save face. That's alot of work, buddy!

To date, you, agape, and ev have numerous unsubstantiated claims. You peristently misrepresent me and the word of God, and acted like a bunch of immature 5th graders. I have asked numerous times for your evidence, and all of you have so far denied. I have asked where am I wrong in my interpretation of scripture, and have these requests have gone unanswered. I would greatly appreciate a response from any of you. If, as you say, there are so many verses that back your groundless claims up, it should be very easy for you.

:p

o2bwise
June 28th, 2002, 08:45 AM
cirisme,


come up with new names to call everybody who disagrees with you,

I do not believe you perceive reality all that well.

cirisme
June 28th, 2002, 09:00 AM
Agpe said on the previous page...


I can't help thinking you are just a school kid by the way you act. You are being so childish and immature.


I do not believe you perceive reality all that well.

I could have said the same of you. Notice, dear readers, that now both agape and o2 are avoiding the issues I raised. To date, neither has answered me. Care to take a crack at it, o2? Or would you rather avoid the subject altogether and go underground?

o2bwise
June 28th, 2002, 11:01 AM
Hi cirisme,

I'll repeat myself. I discern your etiquette to be so lousy so often that I have chosen not to discuss theology with you.

I know you would like to believe that I prefer not to discuss with you because of the (purported) incredible veracity of your argument. I also know that my stating this is untrue would fall on deaf ears.

Like I wrote before, if it makes you feel better to believe that I do not dialogue because I think you pose incredible arguments - well, go for it.

That's cool.

Take Care...

Tony

cirisme
June 28th, 2002, 11:45 AM
I figured as much... :rolleyes:

Agape, you there?

AVmetro
June 28th, 2002, 05:49 PM
Where've you been for so long? :confused:.....

God bless you in the highest ><> +
Jeremiah L.G.

agape
June 28th, 2002, 08:14 PM
Av and cirisme

Revelation 20-15:
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

(12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

(13) The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

(15) If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."

When verses speak of the "death" of the wicked, it is frequently this second death that is being referred to.

After the Great White Judgment, death is abolished. In the Everlasting Kingdom, there will be no more death. Praise God!

Those who partake of the second death have no hope of a resurrection for they will all be face the final death and cease to exist altogether.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall VANISH away.

The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

Where's the "eternal consciousness?" Seems like that vanished into smoke and is gone forever too. :rolleyes:

I strongly suggest that both of you leave out your private interpretations and learn how to study the Scriptures till you finally get it right! :D

o2bwise
June 29th, 2002, 08:24 AM
Hi AV,

Tough week.

What specifically would you like me to respond to?

It seemed to me your main support for your position is wholly dependant on mistakenly asserting that the Greek AION (or a form of the same) must mean of eternal time duration. Philemon contains a verse that suggests otherwise and the LXX is loaded with the same.

Can you show me support for your position that is something other than your mis-use of those verses that contain aion (or a form of aion)?

God Bless Ya,

Tony (o2)

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 08:54 AM
Question...

quote:
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In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. -Jude 7
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Why would the fire be eternal, when it only needs to be there once to destroy the wicked?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power -2 Thess. 1:8,9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why everlasting destruction? After all, destruction does insinuate something everlasting.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



All of which means seperated from God...


quote:
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As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, -Ephesians 2:1
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quote:
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When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins -Colossians 2:13
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Unless of course you think the above means we were non-existent before we met Christ.

Also, notice in 2 Peter 2:6, it says the CITIES are ashes.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The White Throne Judgment clears the way for God's Everlasting Kingdom to begin. Those people whose names are in the Book of Life will be given everlasting life, while those people who are not listed there will be thrown into the lake of fire and incinerated, thus experiencing a "second death."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Don't you think that dying twice(especially in such an awful way) is more cruel than dying once and being seperated from God?(which is how they were on earth anyway...)

Your position seems to be extremely hypocritical at best, anti-christ at worst.

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 09:06 AM
o2, your arguement about aion falls apart. In Revelation, it is translated to mean "eternity" or "for ever and ever" every single time!

There are fourteen verses that use "aion" in Revelation:

Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for ever more, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Re 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Re 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Re 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Re 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Re 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Re 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Re 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Re 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his im age, and whoso ever receiveth the mark of his name.
Re 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Re 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Re 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 09:13 AM
Also note that the word AION is used in the KJV 128 times and is translated as ever 71 times
world 38 times
never 6 times
evermore 4 times
age 2 times
eternal 2 times
and misc. 5 times

The definition of AION is:
(1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
(2) the worlds, universe
(3) period of time, age

Note that (3) is only used twice in the Bible.

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 10:01 AM
Av,

concerning Daniel 12:2, it does mean everlasting. The Hebrew word for ever is 'owlam and is used only in four verses in Daniel:

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in ever lasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to ever lasting life, and some to shame and ever lasting contempt.
Da 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Da 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The definition for the word is this:

(1)long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
(a)ancient time, long time (of past)
(b)(of future)
(1) for ever, always
(2)continuous existence, perpetual
(3)everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

It's used in the KJV a total of 439 times and is translated as: ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2, more 2, never 2, miscellaneous 6.

o2bwise
June 29th, 2002, 11:41 AM
Exodus 21:6
Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

LXX uses aion in this passage. Will the slave serve the master for eternal time duration?

No.


Conclusion: aion need not mean for ever. No matter how many times it is translated thus.

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 11:46 AM
Aion means both "for ever" and a finite time period! What part of that do you not understand?

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 11:48 AM
Also, how long does the servant serve the master in Exodus 21:6? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? What time period does the servant serve?

AVmetro
June 29th, 2002, 12:23 PM
Whew! I love to come to this thread to actually take a break and cool off! ;)

Cirisme,

Good work! Keep it up....:)

O2,

I think Cirisme handled that one pretty good. Seeing a word lexically is important. I'll get back on it...;)

Agape,


(14) Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.


This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal. But only those who go to heaven will not suffer the fire. :) I got more on this later....

God bless,
AV

o2bwise
June 29th, 2002, 02:39 PM
Aion means both "for ever" and a finite time period! What part of that do you not understand?

On this point, I think it is YOU who does not understand!

I AM THE ONE WHO HAS ALWAYS MAINTAINED THAT AION CONTAINS THIS LATITUDE.

What YOU don't seem to understand is that you offer no conclusive evidence that aion MUST be rendered as "for ever" when talking about the torment of the lost. The only so called evidence you offered is one of TRANSLATION and that is NO evidence at all.

If I realize that LANGUAGE offers more flexibility, I must allow the possibility for that flexibility.

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 05:40 PM
If aion means a certain peroid of time(and for the sake of arguement, let's assume that's all it means), I have two questions for you: (A) How long does the servant serve in Exodus 21:6 and (B) How long will people "serve their time" in hell?

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 05:45 PM
My verse by verse rebuttal to agape's verses...


The wicked will be "ruined" (Psalms 73:1), "destroyed" (Psalms 73:19), and they will "perish" (John 3:16). Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind (Psalms 1:4), or else they will be gathered and burned up (Matthew 3:12), incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left (Malachi 4:1). They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20). They will exist "no more" (Psalms 37:10), and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

"Surely God is good to Israel, To those who are pure in heart." -Psalm 73:1(agape:The wicked will be "ruined")

Did I miss something here?

"How they are suddenly destroyed! They are completely swept away with terrors."-Psalms 73:19

And this is expanded upon in 2nd Thessalonians...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16 (agape:and they will "perish")

Perish from what? The source of life, Jesus Christ?

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6

You bet:

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away. -Psalms 1:4(agape: Like the chaff when wheat is winnowed, they will be blown by the wind)

Care explaining this one?

Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. -Matthew 3:12 (agape:or else they will be gathered and burned up)

How bout this one?

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. -Malichi 4:1 (agape: incinerated so completely that not even a root or branch of them is left)

Perhaps that arguement would be more effective if people had roots and branches. :p

Agape: They will vanish like smoke (Psalms 24:20)

Sorry, but Psalms chapter 24 only goes to verse 10. :rolleyes:

For yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more. Yes, though you look for his place, he isn't there. -Psalms 37:10(agape:They will exist "no more")

Care showing us your private interpretation of what "no more" means? No more what? The context makes it clear that it will be no more life of God:

For evildoers shall be cut off, But those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the land. -37:9

cut off from God...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

cut off from the life He is...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6

Since the final two quotes you have for me is the same verse, I'll address it all at once:

agape:and their lamp (life) will be "snuffed out" Proverbs 24:20). The wicked will have no future hope (Proverbs 24:20).

For there will be no reward to the evil man; And the lamp of the wicked shall be snuffed out. -Proverbs 24:20

You have previously stated that there will be no resurrection from hell, of which you are correct. There will be no hope/reward for those in hell. Regarding their life being snuffed out, see the response for Psalms 37:10.

I strongly suggest that both you and o2 leave out your private interpretations and learn how to study the Scriptures till you finally get it right!

;)

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 05:49 PM
AV,


Cirisme,

Good work! Keep it up....:)

Thank you. :D

AVmetro
June 29th, 2002, 05:50 PM
*skiddly diddly... bump*.....

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 06:32 PM
AV,


This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal. But only those who go to heaven will not suffer the fire. :) I got more on this later....

That's a very good point!

cirisme
June 29th, 2002, 06:33 PM
o2,

Regarding aion, what exactly makes you think that Exodus 21:6 does not refer to a neverending time

period? I can't answer for you, but there I two reasons I believe this time is finite:
(A)For ever in such a case ususally means until one party is dead. To elaborate on this, death would be the end

of time(not strictly speaking, but since we're speaking of relative humans, this will suffice). For ever usually

refers to the end of time, thus, from man's perspective, death is the end of time.
(B) 'Owlam, the Hebrew word in this passage, has the ability to mean a finite time.

However, applying this logic to Revelation 20:10 does not fit. (B) may work, but (A) simply can't without circular

reasoning. The only reason we should believe any passage with 'owlam or aion means something finite is

with both conditions A and B. And that requires CONTEXT.

o2bwise
June 30th, 2002, 06:02 AM
cirisme,

I will glean from Point A:

(A)For ever in such a case usually means until one party is dead. To elaborate on this, death would be the end of time(not strictly speaking, but since we're speaking of relative humans, this will suffice). For ever usually refers to the end of time, thus, from man's perspective, death is the end of time.

In other words, "in such a case" for ever means until one party is dead. And "thus, from man's perspective," for ever means at death.


Reveleation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


What in the context disallows for ever meaning until these parties are dead? Or, to put another way, what in the context is so compelling that it clearly requires infinite time?

o2bwise
June 30th, 2002, 06:05 AM
This verse is interesting in that 'death' is destroyed. Note how if death is destroyed then there is no death for all. Think about it. We are ALL raised immortal.

Unless, of course, this fits in a certain time sequence. That being that the lost are already dead, at which point death "dies," i.e. is henceforth not an occurrence.

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 08:51 AM
In other words, "in such a case" for ever means until one party is dead. And "thus, from man's perspective," for ever means at death.

Correct.


What in the context disallows for ever meaning until these parties are dead?

The fact that it is impossible because death is done away with before any human is thrown into the lake of fire!

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:14-15


Or, to put another way, what in the context is so compelling that it clearly requires infinite time?
The above :D To put it another way, aside from aion, what is the most compelling reason you have that this is not infinite time?

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 08:54 AM
o2,


Unless, of course, this fits in a certain time sequence. That being that the lost are already dead, at which point death "dies," i.e. is henceforth not an occurrence.

Could you please elaborate?

o2bwise
June 30th, 2002, 09:13 AM
cirisme,

Yes, I see your point. But, given the tenor of the entirety of scripture AND given the extreme symbolism of Revelation, I don't think it is substantial enough.

It is possible (even likely) that the first death is inferred. It specifically mentions hades which is literally the grave. ALL persons who go to hades are resurrected - no exceptions.

It is compatible that this is the death referred to that is cast into the fire. Not the second death (from which there is no resurrection), but the death that results in hades.

Revelation is so symbolic that a literal rendering is problematic. For example, just what exactly is the beast that is cast into the fire? What does it mean for the beast to be cast there? And who is the false prophet that was cast there? Not a human? (You require it cannot be a person for that must come after.) And what does it mean for death and hades to be cast into this fire? Will the lost abide in this fire and see death and hades there as well (along with the beast and the false prophet)? What does this literally mean?



The above To put it another way, aside from aion, what is the most compelling reason you have that this is not infinite time?

What is compelling is the whole of scripture, the preponderance of evidence.

If one looks at all the evidence and sees that all (or at least most) aion texts are neutral (not preferring your position or mine), the texts that seem to support my position far outnumber those that seem to support your own.

What is compelling is application of the actual means by which truth is extracted from scripture in the first place.

David (not just his flesh) is in the grave. Those in the grave no longer praise God. They have no thought. The lost are described as perishing, as destroyed, as ashes under our feet. Only God has immortality. Jesus came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly.

These texts are everywhere. Their most apparent meaning is lost (by you) because of preconception. The vast number of them is not appreciated and the strength implicit in that number is not realized.

Tony (o2)

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 09:25 AM
What is compelling is the whole of scripture, the preponderance of evidence.

Okay, let's have some of that then...


the texts that seem to support my position far outnumber those that seem to support your own.

That's contradictory, you just that most texts with aion are neutral.


David (not just his flesh) is in the grave. Those in the grave no longer praise God. They have no thought. The lost are described as perishing, as destroyed, as ashes under our feet. Only God has immortality. Jesus came that we might have LIFE and have it more abundantly.

Are you isinuating that there will be no heaven?


These texts are everywhere. Their most apparent meaning is lost (by you) because of preconception. The vast number of them is not appreciated and the strength implicit in that number is not realized.

Correct, you haven't provided any that support your position. I suggest you provide some texts where Jesus(or anyone else) says something to effect of "After ten years in hell, you will surely be destroyed!"

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 09:33 AM
o2, work can even work without Revelation...

Jude 7:
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

Note that the word for eternal here is the Greek word Aionios, which has only the definition of eternal:
(1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
(2)without beginning
(3)without end, never to cease, everlasting

Care explaining this one?

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 09:35 AM
Also note that this word is used in John 17 times, and every single time, it is referring to eternal life, that is the life of the believer in heaven.

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 09:46 AM
Also,

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? -Isaiah 33:14 Note that "everlasting" here is 'owlam, which we covered before.

Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. -Matthew 18:8, the word for everlasting here is aionios, which I've already covered.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. -Matthew 25:46, note that both everlasting and eternal here are aionios.

...of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. -Hebrews 6:2
Eternal here, as you might have guess, is aionios, too.

cirisme
June 30th, 2002, 09:50 AM
Agape,

note that in John 3:16, the word for perish is Apollumi and its definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

:p

o2bwise
July 1st, 2002, 07:20 AM
Hello cirisme,

Very busy, but...


Okay, let's have some of that then...

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Question: Those that believe have what, cirisme?

Answer: Everlasting life.

What is it that those who do not believe do not have? Everlasting life. They do not have life.


Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?

No consciousness during death.


Psalm 9:5-7
5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked; You have blotted out their name forever and ever. 6 O enemy, destructions are finished forever! And you have destroyed cities; Even their memory has perished. 7 But the Lord shall endure forever; He has prepared His throne for judgment.

The wicked are not around, even their memory has perished.


Psalm 146:4
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The very day a person dies, his thoughts perish.


Psalm 37:10,20
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

The wicked SHALL NOT BE.

As the fat of lambs, THEY SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE THEY SHALL CONSUME AWAY.


You wrote:

Correct, you haven't provided any that support your position. I suggest you provide some texts where Jesus(or anyone else) says something to effect of "After ten years in hell, you will surely be destroyed!"

Unneccessary. If something is said to be consumed away, if it is said to NOT BE, it is obvious that any torture must be finite in time in order for the characteristic to take place.

To use an analogy, suppose someone said they were going to burn grass until it NO LONGER IS. Maintaining that the grass will burn forever unless someone says it will be burnt for "10 minutes and THEN it shall not be" is just plain silly.

Tony

cirisme
July 1st, 2002, 09:00 AM
What is it that those who do not believe do not have? Everlasting life. They do not have life.

They perish, just like what Jesus said.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."-John 3:16

I told agape this, and I'll tell you: the Greek word for perish in this passage is Apollumi and it's definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?


No consciousness during death.
Interesting to note that I never said there was going to be. I haven't made up my mind on that right now. Care to explain why this verse is relevant?


The wicked are not around, even their memory has perished.

Let's step back and analyze this passage word by word in Greek.

9:5 - Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

The word for destroyed here is abad and it's definitions are:

(1) perish, vanish, go astray, be destroyed
(a)(Qal)
(1)perish, die, be exterminated
(2)perish, vanish (fig.)
(3)be lost, strayed
(b)(Piel)
(1)to destroy, kill, cause to perish, to give up (as lost), exterminate
(2)to blot out, do away with, cause to vanish, (fig.)
(3)cause to stray, lose
(c)(Hiphil)
(1)to destroy, put to death 1c
(2)of divine judgment
(3)object name of kings (fig.)

Now which definition would you rather use for this passage?

9:6a - destructions are come to a perpetual end:

Destructions here is chorbah. It means "a place laid waste, ruin, waste, desolation."
Perpetual here is Netsach. It means:

(1)eminence, perpetuity, strength, victory, enduring, everlastingness
(a)eminence
(b)enduring of life
(c)endurance in time, perpetual, continual, unto the end
(d)everlastingness, ever

So, we have an everlasting ending to the destruction of the Psalmist's enemies. Your point?

9:6b - "and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them."

The word for memorial here is Zeker. It means:
(1)memorial, remembrance
(a)remembrance, memory
(b)memorial

What exactly is your point in the above?


The very day a person dies, his thoughts perish.

I don't follow how this proves a person is completely destroyed...


The wicked SHALL NOT BE.

As the fat of lambs, THEY SHALL CONSUME, INTO SMOKE THEY SHALL CONSUME AWAY.

Hmmm, seems I already addressed Psalms 37 with agape on page 15. But, since I like you, I'll reprint it:


Care showing us your private interpretation of what "no more" means? No more what? The context makes it clear that it will be no more life of God:

For evildoers shall be cut off, But those who wait for Yahweh shall inherit the land. -37:9

cut off from God [and Jesus]...

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

cut off from the life He is...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. -John 14:6


To use an analogy, suppose someone said they were going to burn grass until it NO LONGER IS. Maintaining that the grass will burn forever unless someone says it will be burnt for "10 minutes and THEN it shall not be" is just plain silly.

Straw man. I never said that I believe in eternal torture. I believe that the fire used in any verse that describes hell is figurative!

Now care tackling Aionios?

cirisme
July 1st, 2002, 09:04 AM
Ooops, looks like I didn't reprint my entire response to agape, here's the rest:


You bet!

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power" -2 Thess. 1:8,9

agape
July 1st, 2002, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by cirisme
Agape,

note that in John 3:16, the word for perish is Apollumi and its definition is:
(1)render useless
(2)to kill
(3)to declare that one must be put to death
(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in helldefinition is:
(1)render useless When one is dead he/she is definitely useless

(2)to kill: definitely dead

(3)to declare that one must be put to death: What more needs to be said?

(4)to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell: Pure private interpretation.

3 out of 4...not bad.

:p

o2bwise
July 1st, 2002, 09:34 AM
cirisme,


Care to explain why this verse is relevant?

Are you being sarcastic?

Psalm 6:5
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks?


The relevence of the text is dependent on a belief that I think the vast majority of people have. Which is that lack of conscious existence is synonymous with lack of life.

Perhaps you are an exception. I thought you believed in eternal conscious torment. Assuming you do not, do you believe in eternal subconscious torment? Eternal unconscious torment?

Both are oxymorons. Where torment is outside of consciousness, torment actually IS NOT.


One other quick response. You gave a definition for perish. Don't you see the possibility that CIRCULARITY is going on? In other words, it is quite possible that many people UNDERSTOOD that the lost suffer eternal torment. Thus, the word PERISH could come to have a meaning consistent with that understanding.

This is no evidence of the truth, whatever it may be. It is only evidence of the eventual definition for a word.

You could do wonders with the word "gay." Take a book written in the 18th century, take a dictionary written today and render gay with a modern definition.

It's a rough analogy.

It's putting the cart before the horse.

Tony

cirisme
July 1st, 2002, 11:22 AM
Perhaps you are an exception. I thought you believed in eternal conscious torment. Assuming you do not, do you believe in eternal subconscious torment? Eternal unconscious torment?

None of the above. I don't believe in torment, at all.


Both are oxymorons. Where torment is outside of consciousness, torment actually IS NOT.

True. Of course, I haven't been arguing about whether there will be torment or not, I'm arguing about how long hell will last. With words like aionios, it's quite obvious that it will be eternal seperation from God. Any other verse that *might* have a seperate meaning is pointless because I have given you several verses that have no other meaning.

o2bwise
July 1st, 2002, 02:40 PM
cirisme,

aionios does not mean eternal. It's a form of aion, which we have agreed need not mean for ever. It's simply like switching from an adjective form to an adverb form. That doesn't change the basic definition.

cirisme
July 1st, 2002, 03:13 PM
:rolleyes: Perhaps you'd care to give us an alternate definition, I've looked a many different scholarly definitions of the word and they all say it means eternal and only eternal. Plus, you haven't addressed the verses/arguements I've given you.

AVmetro
July 2nd, 2002, 01:20 AM
Basically what I notice is a "minus out" of scriptures which state 'eternal punishment' in contrast to those which state 'eternal annihalation'....both sides insist the others to be 'symbolic'. Therefore it is necessary to determine from the scriptures regarding God's natures and requirments what is to be done with the damned.....something I have already long ago addressed to which no one responded.......

AVmetro
July 2nd, 2002, 01:33 AM
....***Page 6***....

Also....I don't believe whoever I directed this to answered me back way back when....

1.) Must sin be punished? Consider the fact that God is a PERFECTLY JUST GOD. Let's take satan for example; a being whom has no remorse for his actions. Must his sin be punished?

2.) Can the blood of animals (i.e. sacrifice) take away sin?

3.) Can the death of the sinner take away the sin?

4.) Can good works take away sin?

5.) Do you agree that ONLY the blood of Jesus can take away sin?

6.) Do you agree, according to the above, that when a man dies once, without Christ that his sin remains unpunished?

Additionally .....Habakkuk1:13 "O Rock,.....Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong."

For ya'll on death.....and the annihilation thereof.....

Rev9:4 "They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

Let us bear in mind Daniels three friends who were thrown into the fire, yet not consumed......imagine that with everyone raised IMMORTAL, yet without God....Hab1:13...;)

God bless you o2,
God bless you Agape,
God bless you Cirisme,

Jeremiah L.G.

AVmetro
July 2nd, 2002, 01:35 AM
*B*

AVmetro
July 2nd, 2002, 01:36 AM
*U*

AVmetro
July 2nd, 2002, 01:36 AM
*M*