PDA

View Full Version : Samuel Lamerson on forgiveness



Knight
August 9th, 2005, 03:36 PM
"I believe that a careful examination of the texts will show that it is not only unwise, but also unscriptural to forgive an unrepentant person."

Forgiveness in the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.quodlibet.net/lamerson-forgive.shtml)
Samuel Lamerson

Sam, I think you fit in perfectly here at TOL! :up:

Vaquero45
August 9th, 2005, 03:50 PM
Cool! Thanks for the link, looks like an interesting read.

RightIdea
August 9th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Heh heh.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. :chuckle:



Just teasin', doc! :thumb:

Knight
August 9th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Heh heh.... Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then. :chuckle:



Just teasin', doc! :thumb:Ouch! :eek:

That's a bit harsh don't ya think? I do realize you were teasing, but still.

Turbo
August 9th, 2005, 03:54 PM
"I believe that a careful examination of the texts will show that it is not only unwise, but also unscriptural to forgive an unrepentant person."

Forgiveness in the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.quodlibet.net/lamerson-forgive.shtml)
Samuel Lamerson

Sam, I think you fit in perfectly here at TOL! :up:

:BRAVO:

RightIdea
August 9th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Ouch! :eek:

That's a bit harsh don't ya think? I do realize you were teasing, but still.
LOL I tease because I love!

Poly
August 9th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Great article!

Knight
August 9th, 2005, 03:57 PM
LOL I tease because I love!Maybe Sam will forgive you if you are repentant. ;)

Knight
August 9th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Sam, if you read this thread it might please you to know that we at TOL have been battling this issue of forgiveness for several years. It is refreshing to find folks such as yourself who can faithfully describe righteous forgiveness.

Servo
August 9th, 2005, 04:14 PM
"I believe that a careful examination of the texts will show that it is not only unwise, but also unscriptural to forgive an unrepentant person."

Forgiveness in the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.quodlibet.net/lamerson-forgive.shtml)
Samuel Lamerson

Sam, I think you fit in perfectly here at TOL! :up:


:up:

Crow
August 9th, 2005, 05:03 PM
"I believe that a careful examination of the texts will show that it is not only unwise, but also unscriptural to forgive an unrepentant person."

Forgiveness in the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.quodlibet.net/lamerson-forgive.shtml)
Samuel Lamerson

Sam, I think you fit in perfectly here at TOL! :up:


Great! Forgiveness without repentance may make the one who forgives feel that they have done a nice thing, but it does nothing to spur the growth of the transgressor.

Emo
August 9th, 2005, 05:36 PM
The attitude of Christ teaches that one must always be willing to forgive the repentant sinner. That is, that the offer of forgiveness must always be open to the unrepentant brother, in hope that they will one day see the error of their way.

:up:

Of course, this makes total sense. Christ continues to leave the door open for those who are willing to repent & glady accept Him as Savior.

PureX
August 9th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Great! Forgiveness without repentance may make the one who forgives feel that they have done a nice thing, but it does nothing to spur the growth of the transgressor.Neither does not forgiving them. It's an illusion to think that you can control the spiritual inclinations of other people. You can't. And as often as not your "rebuke" will just harden them.

And anyway, you can "rebuke" them and still forgive them. And you don't even have to tell them about it. So there's really no reason not to forgive others unless you want to hold on to that self-righteous resentment. But why would anyone want to do that?

Nineveh
August 9th, 2005, 05:55 PM
And anyway, you can "rebuke" them and still forgive them. And you don't even have to tell them about it.

How? Voodoo doll?

Crow
August 9th, 2005, 06:00 PM
And anyway, you can "rebuke" them and still forgive them. And you don't even have to tell them about it. So there's really no reason not to forgive others unless you want to hold on to that self-righteous resentment. But why would anyone want to do that?

Purex, I became a Christian because of Bob Enyart's ministry. So apparantly your "logic" about rebuke hardening people is not universally applicable.

Christian forgiveness is about reconcilliation, not personal "feel-good." And reconcilliation takes both parties, not just one. My "feelings" aren't the main object of Christian forgiveness.

temple2006
August 9th, 2005, 06:07 PM
It's a long story, Nin, but I have to ask if you consider yourself the dispenser of punitive justice. I guess I have to merit your blessing. Is that what was done for you? Remember you are nobody until somebody loves you. Can you and I be friends even if we disagree? Don't be dissing me....I don't diss you.

Nineveh
August 9th, 2005, 06:10 PM
It's a long story, Nin, but I have to ask if you consider yourself the dispenser of punitive justice. I guess I have to merit your blessing. Is that what was done for you? Remember you are nobody until somebody loves you. Can you and I be friends even if we disagree? Don't be dissing me....I don't diss you.

What on earth are you talking about?

Turbo
August 9th, 2005, 06:26 PM
And anyway, you can "rebuke" them and still forgive them.Yes, one can. But one should only if he repents.


And you don't even have to tell them about it.

Open rebuke is better
Than love carefully concealed. Proverbs 27:5
So there's really no reason not to forgive others unless you want to hold on to that self-righteous resentment. But why would anyone want to do that?
I'd rather follow Jesus' instructions than PureX's.


Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and IF he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3

Sozo
August 9th, 2005, 06:28 PM
It's an illusion to think that you can control the spiritual inclinations of other people. [/i]


What does forgiveness have to do with someone's "spiritual inclinations"? Forgiving or not forgiving has everything to do with something you know nothing about...

Right and Wrong.


And as often as not your "rebuke" will just harden them. People harden their own hearts, but if a rebuke does not set them straight, it may send a message to others who might consider the same offense. When I rebuke my child, it sends a clear message to the other children in our family, and it also sends a message to them when they see the rebuked child repent, and my forgiveness being extended in love. It is obvious that you lack any understanding about this subject.

Btw... why do you care about the idea of forgiveness or unforgiveness anyway? I thought that you believed that there are no absolutes, and therefore no one would ever have need of forgiveness?

Poly
August 9th, 2005, 06:51 PM
What does forgiveness have to do with someone's "spiritual inclinations"? Forgiving or not forgiving has everything to do with something you know nothing about...

Right and Wrong.

People harden their own hearts, but if a rebuke does not set them straight, it may send a message to others who might consider the same offense. When I rebuke my child, it sends a clear message to the other children in our family, and it also sends a message to them when they see the rebuked child repent, and my forgiveness being extended in love. It is obvious that you lack any understanding about this subject.

Btw... why do you care about the idea of forgiveness or unforgiveness anyway? I thought that you believed that there are no absolutes, and therefore no one would ever have need of forgiveness?

POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=832562#post832562) :up:

Yorzhik
August 9th, 2005, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by PureX

And anyway, you can "rebuke" them and still forgive them.
And by putting rebuke in quotes, you really mean "not rebuke", right?

Because forgiveness and rebuke are mutually exclusive.

PureX
August 9th, 2005, 07:21 PM
Purex, I became a Christian because of Bob Enyart's ministry. So apparantly your "logic" about rebuke hardening people is not universally applicable.But Bob Enyart didn't convince you of anything you didn't already want to believe. And if you hadn't heard what you wanted to hear from him, you'd have heard if from someone else. The truth is all around us. It isn't lack of access that stops us from hearing it. It's our lack of willingness.

And I'm not saying that your shouldn't "rebuke" someone when you believe that it's the right thing for you to do. All I'm saying is that you can forgive them whether you rebuke them or not. And they don't even have to know.

Christian forgiveness is about reconcilliation, not personal "feel-good." And reconcilliation takes both parties, not just one. My "feelings" aren't the main object of Christian forgiveness.This is all well and good, but you're forgetting about the bad effect of holding onto resentments and grudges against people within your own self. Even your bible tells you not to let the sun go down on your anger or resentment against someone else.

Ecumenicist
August 9th, 2005, 07:21 PM
My take on the subject. I think Sam pulls together too many scriptures here, he
neglects to understand that in some cases, Jesus is directing humanity on how to
act in interpersonal relationships, and in others, Jesus directs the disciples about
how to act in situations where members of the group, the body of Christ, the Church,
require discipline.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=797076&postcount=172

PureX
August 9th, 2005, 07:26 PM
And by putting rebuke in quotes, you really mean "not rebuke", right?I put the word "rebuke" in quotes because I doubt the sincerity of it in many cases.

Because forgiveness and rebuke are mutually exclusive. No they aren't. We can easily "rebuke" someone for an offense that we have already forgiven them for.

jeremiah
August 9th, 2005, 07:54 PM
Outstanding!
Since I live close to Denver, I had the privilege of hearing Brian Rohrbaugh {SP?} speak a couple of weeks ago and say the same thing. His son Daniel was killed at Columbine. How could he, or any of us, forgive Kleibold and Harris, since they never voiced any repentance before they killed themselves. Yet someone put crosses up for the two killers as well as all the victims.
The key is that the offer stands, and is unshakeable. If you repent, then we who are the forgiven, will in turn forgive you. The offer is so beautiful in its simplicity.
The opposite is equally beautiful, in its simplicity. If you repent, and ask us for our forgiveness and we refuse; then we have never been forgiven ourselves, because we never truly repented and asked God for His forgiveness. We are therefore, not the children of God!

temple2006
August 9th, 2005, 09:27 PM
Nin...I am talking about how you (or anyone else) treats people whom you (or anyone else) considers unsaved dog vomit. Would you share table with them? Jesus did,

Yorzhik
August 9th, 2005, 10:19 PM
I put the word "rebuke" in quotes because I doubt the sincerity of it in many cases.
Well that's just great thinking... because you say next -


No they aren't. We can easily "rebuke" someone for an offense that we have already forgiven them for.
- can only be true if "rebuke" isn't actually a rebuke! Forgiveness doesn't allow it! This is where the label "idiot" is correctly applied. It is simply recording a fact. PureX; you are an idiot. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Yorzhik
August 10th, 2005, 12:23 AM
Oh, I almost forgot. PureX; I forgive you for being an idiot - you idiot.

PureX
August 10th, 2005, 06:26 AM
Well, can't we all see who you are, today!

If you believe that someone has offended you, and you have forgiven them. You can still "rebuke" them for having offended you. I don't see any reason why you couldn't. And I don't see you giving me any reason why you couldn't.

That being said, what reason would there be for not forgiving someone who has offended you except that you want to wallow in the sense of superiority that you feel from lording their offense over them? I think this is exactly why a lot of people want the offender to bow in repentance before them, and I think it's exactly why a lot of people so love to "rebuke" others in the first place. Which is why I put the word "rebuke" in quotations. I believe that in many cases what's going on is not a genuine rebuke at all, but a petty exhibition of self-righteous indignation.

Servo
August 10th, 2005, 07:05 AM
It's great when non-Christians try to council Christians on the Bible and what is right and wrong.

Turbo
August 10th, 2005, 08:27 AM
Well that's just great thinking... because you say next -


- can only be true if "rebuke" isn't actually a rebuke! Forgiveness doesn't allow it! Or it could be that the "forgiveness" is insincere. Why would someone rebuke others for things he has supposedly forgiven them for? That would be evidence that his forgiveness was disingenuous.

Turbo
August 10th, 2005, 08:29 AM
It's great when non-Christians try to council Christians on the Bible and what is right and wrong.
Especially when said non-Christians don't believe that what is right and wrong is objective and can be known. :hammer:

PureX
August 10th, 2005, 08:39 AM
Why would someone rebuke others for things he has supposedly forgiven them for?Because they believe that it's the right thing to do. Isn't that the reason for the "rebuke" in the first place? Rebuking others isn't about how we feel, is it? It's about "teaching them" that they have done something wrong.

Yorzhik
August 10th, 2005, 11:16 AM
If you believe that someone has offended you, and you have forgiven them. You can still "rebuke" them for having offended you. I don't see any reason why you couldn't. And I don't see you giving me any reason why you couldn't.
It's really simple. Forgiveness is excusing the offense. Rebuking is demanding redress for the offense. They are exclusive. Opposites. They cannot both be true at the same time.

PureX
August 10th, 2005, 11:28 AM
It's really simple. Forgiveness is excusing the offense. Rebuking is demanding redress for the offense. They are exclusive. Opposites. They cannot both be true at the same time.I don't think "rebuking" is demanding redress for an offense. I think it's calling the offender's attention to the offense. Here is the pertinent definition from dictionary.com: "To criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand. See Synonyms at admonish." I don't see anything here about demanding redress. It appears that you've misunderstood the meaning of the word "rebuke".

Yorzhik
August 10th, 2005, 11:41 AM
PureX, you idiot, a reprimand or admonishment is a punishment. Are you saying that you can simultaneously punish and forgive?

PureX
August 10th, 2005, 11:57 AM
PureX, you idiot, a reprimand or admonishment is a punishment. Are you saying that you can simultaneously punish and forgive?No a reprimand is a correction, not a punishment. But I'm sure that if you post enough other similar words besides "rebuke" you will eventually find one that means punishment. Why can't you just admit that you were wrong? Lots of people misunderstand words, it's no big deal, really. Is your ego so fragile that you have to call me names and lie about the definitions of words just so you can be right?

temple2006
August 10th, 2005, 03:58 PM
Hi Nin.....Looking for an answer.

Ecumenicist
August 10th, 2005, 04:40 PM
No a reprimand is a correction, not a punishment. But I'm sure that if you post enough other similar words besides "rebuke" you will eventually find one that means punishment. Why can't you just admit that you were wrong? Lots of people misunderstand words, it's no big deal, really. Is your ego so fragile that you have to call me names and lie about the definitions of words just so you can be right?

Is "you idiot" a rebuke or a punishment, reprimand or admonishment? :chuckle:

Rimi
August 10th, 2005, 05:47 PM
Nin...I am talking about how you (or anyone else) treats people whom you (or anyone else) considers unsaved dog vomit. Would you share table with them? Jesus did,


Oh, great, the typical, "Well, Jesus ate with sinners" routine. . .

Listen up:

He didn't have a choice! We're all sinners, dopey. Do you get it! How could He NOT eat with sinners??? Tell me. Someone. ANYone. Tell me how Jesus could avoid eating with sinners!!!!

Rimi
August 10th, 2005, 05:48 PM
I"ma go to the Redneck Club and get a beer. Call me if certain IQs rise around here.

temple2006
August 10th, 2005, 07:17 PM
Rimi....So if Jesus did why don't you? And don't gimme that stuff about Jesus not having a choice. He was God so he did not have to talk to anybody, Hey, are you by any chance posting for Nin or are you and she the same person, cause I sure did not ask you anything.

Rimi
August 10th, 2005, 10:04 PM
Rimi....So if Jesus did why don't you? And don't gimme that stuff about Jesus not having a choice. He was God so he did not have to talk to anybody, Hey, are you by any chance posting for Nin or are you and she the same person, cause I sure did not ask you anything.

Well, stumpy, you're asking me now. I have a choice when I sit down to eat with those not of the Body of Christ, which is more then have the population of planet Earth, a place you should visit some time.

The fact is, if Jesus was going to do His Father's will, He had no choice but to be among sinners because that's what they all were. He did have to interact with those He was around because He came to say "Repent, the kingdom of Heaven is upon you" . . . and He did have to interact to the point of being put to death or be accepted. These things could not happen in a vacuum.

:bang:

You're not going to get this, I can see. But I can at least say I tried.

temple2006
August 11th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Rimi.....If Jesus is God, is he a lesser God than God the Father? I don't understand the Trinity concept too well so maybe you can explain it to me. I always thought they were equal.

Rimi
August 11th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Rimi.....If Jesus is God, is he a lesser God than God the Father? I don't understand the Trinity concept too well so maybe you can explain it to me. I always thought they were equal.


Use the search key to find a thread on this. I don't want to talk to you. :wave2:

temple2006
August 11th, 2005, 09:18 PM
Use the search key to find a thread on this. I don't want to talk to you. :wave2:

I figured you wouldn't/ :chuckle:

Rimi
August 11th, 2005, 11:17 PM
I figured you wouldn't/ :chuckle:


But not for the reasons you think. I did a search on your posts and find you to be vapid, boring. You think a homo is a gift from God. You think you're nicer than God. There is nothing remotely unique about your stand on things to be sure, but you fail to be interesting. You want desparately to be enigmatic or mystical but only come across as scatterbrained.

If you're a Christian, you're in need of special guidance from a strong Christian. If you're not a Christian, well, you're going to hell and obviously know it and want it.

Yorzhik
August 12th, 2005, 10:00 AM
No a reprimand is a correction, not a punishment.
Can you help me with this crossword puzzle? It's a word that that has 10 letters, starts with a "p", ends with a "t" and the clue is "a correction".

Here's another one. 9 letters. It's a punishment for a wrongly acting employee, starts with an "r" and ends with a "d", and your clue is "a letter of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _"

And one more. 5 letters. Starts with "Pure", ends with and "X", and your clue is "idiot".


But I'm sure that if you post enough other similar words besides "rebuke" you will eventually find one that means punishment.
Yeah, like "reprimand" or "a correction".


Why can't you just admit that you were wrong?
Because I'm right, but let's not just leave it at that. Let's demonstrate with the next part of your post.


Lots of people misunderstand words, it's no big deal, really. Is your ego so fragile that you have to call me names and lie about the definitions of words just so you can be right?
Questioning whether I have a fragile ego is an offensive thing to say. And calling someone a liar is offensive as well. They are both offensive whether you intend it as a correction or not. Now. If I respond by acting as if you never offended me, that would be "forgiveness". Why? Because forgiveness is "letting an offense pass". If, however, I respond by calling you an idiot because of these offenses, then it doesn't matter if I say I've forgiven you OR if I don't let the offense bother me OR if I mean by offending you in reply to correct you - if I don't let the offense pass, there is not forgiveness. You cannot come up with an example wherein a person responds by acting as if there is no offense and also responds with negative feedback for the same offense.

So, my question is this: have you forgiven me for calling you an idiot? If so, when did you forgive me? Before your post I'm responding to now? Or after?

Yorzhik
August 12th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Is "you idiot" a rebuke or a punishment, reprimand or admonishment? :chuckle:
I was hoping for all four.

temple2006
August 12th, 2005, 10:32 AM
Rimi....When all else fails, attack the poster. It takes the conversation away from the subject, does it not?

elected4ever
August 12th, 2005, 12:20 PM
Rimi....When all else fails, attack the poster. It takes the conversation away from the subject, does it not?Sense your polytheism is not the subject matter discuss it else ware. let's get back on topic.

Rimi
August 12th, 2005, 12:56 PM
Rimi....When all else fails, attack the poster. It takes the conversation away from the subject, does it not?


This was not meant as an attack or an insult. This was a courtesy post to let you know that you're just not worth my time. Just a statement of fact.

Yeesh, try to be kind to someone and that's that thanks ya get. :nono:

temple2006
August 12th, 2005, 08:34 PM
E4E....Do you have a spell checker?

Sense your polytheism is not the subject matter discuss it else ware. let's

temple2006
August 12th, 2005, 08:40 PM
Rimi...... #52 Today, 01:56 PM
Rimi Offline
TOL Subscriber





Rep Power: 27
Reputation: Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,956
(8.38 posts per day)
Aim


Quote:
Originally Posted by temple 2000

Rimi....When all else fails, attack the poster. It takes the conversation away from the subject, does it not?




This was not meant as an attack or an insult. This was a courtesy post to let you know that you're just not worth my time. Just a statement of fact.

Yeesh, try to be kind to someone and that's that thanks ya get.

You really don't think that calling me vapid, boring and scatterbrained, plus saying I am not worth your time is kind? And how can you say anything about my motives?

BTW, if you don't understand something or cannot give a coherent answer. that does not always mean the poster is at fault. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand.

Rimi
August 12th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Rimi...... #52 Today, 01:56 PM
Rimi Offline
TOL Subscriber





Rep Power: 27
Reputation: Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,956
(8.38 posts per day)
Aim


Quote:
Originally Posted by temple 2000

Rimi....When all else fails, attack the poster. It takes the conversation away from the subject, does it not?




This was not meant as an attack or an insult. This was a courtesy post to let you know that you're just not worth my time. Just a statement of fact.

Yeesh, try to be kind to someone and that's that thanks ya get.

You really don't think that calling me vapid, boring and scatterbrained, plus saying I am not worth your time is kind? And how can you say anything about my motives?

BTW, if you don't understand something or cannot give a coherent answer. that does not always mean the poster is at fault. Some people just don't have the capacity to understand.

I understand that you've already been instructed in forgiveness, unconditional love, etc. and you don't like the answers you're getting. Fine. Then you try to pretend that you can make a point by asking questions, when you have no point. If you were insulted that's your problem, but it was not my intent. What is it you don't think I understand? That you want to argue about a subject you simply cannot grasp!? BTW, do you consider yourself a Christian? If not, what is your belief?

temple2006
August 12th, 2005, 10:59 PM
Rimi......I would consider myself a follower of Jesus way, however I do not believe in atonement but rather at-one-ment. I believe that men somehow misunderstood Jesus' message and through the years his mission was misunderstood.

Rimi
August 12th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Temple, what do you think was the mission of Jesus Christ?

elohiym
August 12th, 2005, 11:59 PM
Greetings all,

From Samuel Lamerson's paper:

"Matthew knows nothing of a forgiveness without repentance, a change of heart without a change of life, or a Christian who acts like an unbeliever. " (Emphasis mine.)

If someone is my enemy, he is so because he "will not repent of his wrongdoing" against me.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:43-48

It is hard to believe that Jesus meant us to love our unrepentant enemies, bless them, do good to them, and pray for them, BUT don't forgive them until they repent. If you only forgive them that repent, "what do ye more than others?"

Can God's forgiveness be separated from his love? He loved us while we were dead in our transgressions. Can his forgiveness and love be separated from his goodness? His goodness leads to repentance.

Peace

###

jeremiah
August 13th, 2005, 12:24 AM
Thank you elohiym for making an insightful comment on the topic of this thread! You broke a string of the most disgusting, childish, trash-talking, mostly off topic comments that I have ever read on a thread on TOL . Bless you!
To address your point, I would have to say that is exactly what is meant, as hard as it is to believe or accept.
We can love, do good, and bless our enemies even while we say something like John the Baptist. "Repent for the Kingdom of God is near."
God did love us while we were yet sinners, but we remained dead in our sins and condemned to eternal death until we repented. It is that kind of Love, or "Kindness that leads us to Repentance."
God also wants us to love and be kind to people until they repent.
We can love without forgiving, but we can't forgive until someone repents, because that is what God is doing. God is only allowing the humble repentant into His kingdom. He loves the whole world, but the Salvation of a human soul takes more than God's love. Our part is faith through repentance!

Rimi
August 13th, 2005, 06:58 AM
Jeremiah, you are correct and I apologize for getting side lined. I am frustrated with those who can't get this simple thing called forgiveness. Love, yes. Forgive, not without repentence. For God did love us while we were yet sinners. God also didn't forgive us till we repented. God is good and wise beyond measure.

Elohiym, excellent post and thank you for getting this back on topic.

temple2006
August 13th, 2005, 11:38 AM
Eloyhim....What a beautiful post!

Rimi.....Jesus came to instruct humanity in the way to salvation. In my case, salvation is not some place with pearly gates and golden streets, but it is peace of mind and heart here and now in his beautiful world. "I have come so that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Remember?
I believe that Jesus is the definitive revelation of God. He did not live a fearful life and neither do I.

Rimi
August 13th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Temple, Jesus IS the way to salvation.

elohiym
August 14th, 2005, 12:52 AM
Friends,

Thank you for the blessings and kind words. God bless you all.


God did love us while we were yet sinners, but we remained dead in our sins and condemned to eternal death until we repented. It is that kind of Love, or "Kindness that leads us to Repentance."What you say is absolutely true. But do we agree on what it means to repent, Jeremiah?

When I say repent, based on my understanding of the word as it is used in the Bible, I mean to be converted (born again). When we are converted and turn away from sin, we are turning completely from darkness to light.

Because I define repent as totally turning from darkness to light, I can accept Samuel Lamerson's conclusion that "The unforgiving person is the unforgiven person." My difficulty is with the conclusion that forgiveness comes after repentance.


We can love without forgiving, but we can't forgive until someone repents, because that is what God is doing.Jesus taught:

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In such a situation, when one is praying in private (as Jesus taught), it is absolutely clear we would be forgiving without repentance from the "forgiven" person.

I believe that God's forgiveness is extended to us before repentance, and we should extend our forgiveness to others before repentance; but if they do not repent, then they have not changed, and thus remain unforgiven.

Peace

###

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Jesus taught:

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In such a situation, when one is praying in private (as Jesus taught), it is absolutely clear we would be forgiving without repentance from the "forgiven" person.

I believe that God's forgiveness is extended to us before repentance, and we should extend our forgiveness to others before repentance; but if they do not repent, then they have not changed, and thus remain unforgiven.So, you're saying that we forgive people, then wait to see if they repent, and if they don't repent we un-forgive them??? I'm confused.

elohiym
August 14th, 2005, 09:58 AM
So, you're saying that we forgive people, then wait to see if they repent, and if they don't repent we un-forgive them??? I'm confused.I'll use the parable of the wicked servant in Matthew to clarify my position.

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

We can equate this situation with our state prior to being born again. We have a massive sin debt that we do not have the means to pay. The outcome if we don't pay is bondage (servant of sin), and that is fatal.

The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

We cannot equate the wicked servants request with repentance because repentance is not propitiation. We do not repent by trying to pay back a debt that is impossible to pay; those attempting to pay back the debt to obtain forgiveness are called self-righteous. So the wicked servant did not repent; he only made a self-righteous statement in ignorance.

Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

We can equate the forgiveness of the king towards the wicked servant to grace. The grace of God is his forgiving mercy. Romans 11:6; Eph. 2:5. There was no repentance shown by the wicked servant even though God extended His forgiving mercy.

But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

Because the wicked servant did not repent, he does not manifest the fuit of the spirit. Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith..." That is evident in his unrighteous works against his fellow servant.


So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

There can be no doubt that God ties compassion and pity to forgiveness. God's mercy is forgiving mercy.

And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

All that is still due to the king is the repentance of the wicked servant; but that will not be achieved with more "lip-service-worship," unattainable promises, or a more sincere "I'm sorry." The wicked servant needs to change; he needs to become a new creature. That would be repentance, and it would be evident in his fruits. Matthew 7:20 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

If that still was not clear, then think of forgiveness as a ball. God throws forgiveness to you (mercy), and you must catch it (repent). If you don't catch it, it doesn't mean that God didn't throw it. Catching does not come before throwing.

Peace

###

elected4ever
August 14th, 2005, 10:00 AM
So, you're saying that we forgive people, then wait to see if they repent, and if they don't repent we un-forgive them??? I'm confused.To repent means to change in the sense of its meaning here. A person can repent with out the forgiveness of the wronged party.

Forgiveness is different. What it means is that the wronged party hold guiltless the wrong doer. Forgiveness is separate and apart from repentance. Just because a person repents does not make forgiveness automatic.

A person may be an atheist for example and then adopts a belief in a god of sorts; Hinduism for example.The atheist has repented from his belief in no gods to a belief in a god. That is a change in the direction of the persons belief but forgiveness is not obtained because the change is to the wrong god. There would be no forgiveness from the God of the Bible because the repentance is not directed toward Him.

Jesus teaches that we ought to forgive others just as God has forgiven us. In this case our forgiveness of others shows our appreciation for the appreciation for the forgiveness that has been shown to us.

When a person has been offered forgiveness does not mean that that forgiveness has been received by the person to which the forgiveness was offered.

An example, lets say a man cheats on his wife regularly. and then is caught by his wife and the man repents saying, "forgive me I wont do it again." In fact the man stops cheating on his wife. The wife then says, "I forgive you." The man is not forgiven though the forgiveness has been offered to him. The man must receive the forgiveness.

The man who has been offered forgiveness has a friend who has borrowed some tools from him and the tools were left out in the weather and were rendered useless. The borrower, after been confronted, repents but does not have the means to replace the tools even though he has a sincere desire to do so. Action is taken against the borrower and the first man treats the man with disdain even though the first man had the ability to offer forgiveness to the borrower.

The wife looks at what has happened and concludes that her husband is not accepted her forgiveness and only changed to prevent a divorce in which she would have cleaned his clock. She sees a selfish man who has not repented and has not accepted the forgiveness that she offered. He has not changed (repented) so she withdraws the offer of of forgiveness and files for divorce and cleans him out lock, stock and barrow.

The cheating husband was only afraid of losing all and attempted to appease his wife by changing the actions and not his mind. His desire was still to cheat on his wife. If he were truly repentant he would have changed his mine and accepted the forgiveness that was offered to him. He would then treat others as he himself was treated.

That is the evidence of a repentant heart and forgiveness accepted and appreciated.

jeremiah
August 14th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Because I define repent as totally turning from darkness to light, I can accept Samuel Lamerson's conclusion that "The unforgiving person is the unforgiven person." My difficulty is with the conclusion that forgiveness comes after repentance.

Jesus taught:

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

In such a situation, when one is praying in private (as Jesus taught), it is absolutely clear we would be forgiving without repentance from the "forgiven" person.

I believe that God's forgiveness is extended to us before repentance, and we should extend our forgiveness to others before repentance; but if they do not repent, then they have not changed, and thus remain unforgiven.

Peace

###[/QUOTE]


Yes, that is very well expressed. The passages on forgiveness are very difficult, because first it is so difficult for us to forgive, and secondly many of them seem to contradict each other.
Certainly the passages about Church discipline and removing admitted sinners who refuse to repent, even when confronted by the whole Church are clear! They have not repented and to then forgive them, and have them remain in the Church, would lead to many people "doing what is right in their own eyes."
Each person would be their own judge before God, and the Church would, in effect, have no authority from God to judge. We know that this is not true, according to the Bible. The Church is allowed to judge, and the only penalty they are allowed to enforce is disfellowshipping a member, and then turning that person over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh. The hope is that it will cause that person to repent.
Equally clear is the command to forgive someone who asks you for their forgiveness, even 7x70.
Yet now we are also commanded to forgive someone while we are praying to God, if we have something against them.
So let us say that the married man next door is committing adultery with another man's wife. The husband of that wife is enraged and embittered. He now hates his neighbor and is extremely angry at his wife. He is thinking terrible things, and wants to commit violence against one, or both of them.
Now he goes to pray and he remembers the words of Jesus in Mark 11-25 and 26. He now must forgive them for breaking the 6th commandment, because it has caused him to sin, through hating, and bitterness, and violent intentions. Their sin has caused him to sin, because we are all have a sin nature.
If he does not forgive them of adultery, how can God forgive him and listen to his prayers while he has intense hatred, that could possibly lead to murder, in his heart, while he is praying.
The man will then receive wisdom from God as to how to rebuke and convict his wife and neighbor to lead them to repentance. Or in this instance he is free to put her out and divorce her, biblically. He is not allowed to sin and remain bitter towards his wife, all the rest of the days of his life, and pray to God with unforgiveness and hatred towards others in his heart. { And we wonder, why God does not answer our prayers, and things don't change}
I tried to pick the most difficult circumstance that I could think of so that we both would realize how difficult forgiveness is, and how it is different within a Church and for an individual in prayer.
To sum it up, here is my point. You must forgive someone who has sinned against you and then you sinned against them in return. Otherwise you will not be forgiven by the Father. In no instance does that mean that their sin is forgiven before God, unless and until they repent of it, and the goal of every believer should be to continue to admonish a sinner until they repent, and then they can be forgiven before God and man.
We believers will be held accountable and will suffer loss for every sin that we hold on to until our death....... yet we will be saved, as through fire.
That is the way that I understand these passages, and I admit that I could be wrong, about the more difficult ones. Whenever justice and mercy clash, it is truly an "art" to resolve them in love, the Love of God.

elohiym
August 14th, 2005, 10:13 AM
For the record, I do not believe God ever takes back His forgiveness.

Using the ball analogy, God throws forgiveness (mercy) and we catch it (repent); but if we don't catch the ball, it doesn't bounce back to God; it just sits there on the ground in front of us. We are tormented if we continue to ask God to throw the ball to us, not realizing that it is sitting right at our feet ready to be picked up.

If we cannot throw that ball to someone else, we never caught the ball.

Peace

###

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 11:30 AM
I'll use the parable of the wicked servant in Matthew to clarify my position....So, according to the moral of this story of the wicked servant, a Christian, believing that he has already been forgiven by God, should in turn forgive his fellows. And if he does not do so even after having been forgiven himself, then God will withdraw his original forgiveness (because the "Christian" has not truly repented).

Is this what you're saying?

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 11:38 AM
For the record, I do not believe God ever takes back His forgiveness.

Using the ball analogy, God throws forgiveness (mercy) and we catch it (repent); but if we don't catch the ball, it doesn't bounce back to God; it just sits there on the ground in front of us. We are tormented if we continue to ask God to throw the ball to us, not realizing that it is sitting right at our feet ready to be picked up.

If we cannot throw that ball to someone else, we never caught the ball.

Peace

###So if someone steals your car, will you forgive them for what they've done to you, or will you insist that they repent, first? This doesn't seem to be getting any clearer.

Patmos
August 14th, 2005, 11:45 AM
Does this help with the car theft question?


Psalm 51:4 4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou Judgest.


:)

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 11:53 AM
Does this help with the car theft question?


Psalm 51:4 4. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou Judgest.


:)Are you saying that we "sin" only against God, and so the question of forgiving others is only a personal and internal issue?

I also don't understand Elohiym's ball analogy. Either we forgive those who have harmed us, or we don't. I don't see how their "accepting" our forgiveness has anything to do with our forgiving them. And frankly, I don't see how their forgiving others or not has anything to do with it, either, unless we are demanding that conditions be met before we will "forgive". But then if we are demanding conditions, it's not really forgiveness, is it?

elected4ever
August 14th, 2005, 11:55 AM
So if someone steals your car, will you forgive them for what they've done to you, or will you insist that they repent, first? This doesn't seem to be getting any clearer.Wrong question. When someone steals a car it is a violation of criminal law. The law demands satisfaction not the owner of the car. Forgiveness by an individual only applies when it is in the power of the individual to forgive.

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 11:59 AM
Wrong question. When someone steals a car it is a violation of civil law. The law demands satisfaction not the owner of the car. Forgiveness by an individual only applies when it is in the power of the individual to forgive.I agree that the theft of property is a social crime, but it's also a harm done to you, directly. You will not have the right or ability to forgive the thief's crime against society, but you do still have the right and ability to forgive the thief's harm to you as a person.

So would you?

elected4ever
August 14th, 2005, 12:03 PM
I agree that the theft of property is a social crime, but it's also a harm done to you, directly. You will not have the right or ability to forgive the thief's crime against society, but you do still have the right and ability to forgive the thief's harm to you as a person.

So would you?I don't see it that way but be that as it may. The owner of the car has no authority to hold harmless.

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I don't see it that way but be that as it may. The owner of the car has no authority to hold harmless.If you don't believe that stealing your property is a sin against you, as well as a social crime, what would you consider a "sin" against you?

elohiym
August 14th, 2005, 03:16 PM
I also don't understand Elohiym's ball analogy. Either we forgive those who have harmed us, or we don't. I don't see how their "accepting" our forgiveness has anything to do with our forgiving them.Yes, we forgive them, whether they accept the forgiveness or not. We don't withdraw our forgiveness because they don't feel forgiven, or because they don't understand forgiveness, or because they refuse to stop doing what we forgive them for.

Example: I forgive the kid that molested me when I was a child. He has never sought me out to apologize, and I don't see how he could find me even if he wanted to, yet nobody can tell me I don't sincerely forgive him with all my heart. I do. Even if he had found me and apologized, I would not consider it repentance. Biblically speaking, that isn't repentance. (I would still accept his apology and say I forgive you, of course) But if the kid grew into a man that turned from sin, became born again, and was no longer capable of doing to anyone else what he did to me, that would be true biblical repentance.


And frankly, I don't see how their forgiving others or not has anything to do with it, either, unless we are demanding that conditions be met before we will "forgive". But then if we are demanding conditions, it's not really forgiveness, is it?Their forgiving others means they have the fruit of the spirit, meaning they are born again. It is not a condition of forgiveness, but evidence that one has been forgiven.

Peace

###

PureX
August 14th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Yes, we forgive them, whether they accept the forgiveness or not. We don't withdraw our forgiveness because they don't feel forgiven, or because they don't understand forgiveness, or because they refuse to stop doing what we forgive them for.That's much clearer, but I suspect you won't be getting any more weenie points around here for having stating it so clearly. *smile*

elohiym
August 14th, 2005, 04:50 PM
That's much clearer, but I suspect you won't be getting any more weenie points around here for having stating it so clearly. *smile*That's what I stated all along; that I believe God forgives us before we repent, and so should we. The falsification for that is "Grace is not forgiving mercy."

I'm certainly open to a greater understanding of this subject, but whatever conclusions I come to need to be in harmony with the rest of what I'm reading in the Bible.

Peace

###

temple2006
August 14th, 2005, 06:48 PM
E4E....To repent means to change in the sense of its meaning here. A person can repent with out the forgiveness of the wronged party.

Absolutely, I agree. In my estimation, FORGIVNESS IS AN ATTITUDE, You either live it or not.