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lovemeorhateme
August 4th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Hi.

I am starting this thread at the suggestion of Rimi. My question is, what are the conditions of my forgiving other people? Here are the two scriptures I would like to cite:

So watch yourselves. 'If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him.' Luke 17:3 NIV

So, that would seem to imply that someone has to repent before I should forgive them. But, when I look somewhere else in the New Testament, I get a bit confused!

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6: 14-15 NIV

So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness? Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?

Pete

servent101
August 4th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Pete
So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness? Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?

This forgiveness is hard to actually do - what it means is to act in such a way, and hold an opinion of the other, as if the tresspass did not occur. To ourselves, and to others how do we know that we actually have forgiven a person? - so anyways, once you decide to forgive a person, and the reasons for forgiving someone - then carring out that forgiveness is the more tricky part.

So anyways - I try to follow the example of Christ - and he forgives people, before they even know they did something wrong.

So the possibility does exist - that some people will hurt you beyond your ability to cope - so you have to stay away from them.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Emo
August 4th, 2005, 05:00 PM
So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness?

Yep, if an individual approaches you & admits to his wrongdoing then they should be forgiven. Is this not the message of Christ?

I'll somewhat repost the Scripture from Luke again, just to be clear.

Luke 17:4
And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."


Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?



It's just like my first posted sentence. Humbling oneself before Christ, asking for forgiveness of your sins, believing He was raised from the dead is truly what one should be concerned with, first & foremost. Then, as a Christian, we use the Savior as our model for forgiving others.

Col. 3:13
bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

PureX
August 4th, 2005, 05:54 PM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway, so that you will be free from resentment, and so that you will hopefully be forgiven in turn, whether you recognize that you have done harm to others and repent of it or not.

We should realize that many times when we do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it. And the same is true of when others cause us harm. Very few people intend to hurt other people. yet we hurt each other all the time. This is WHY we need forgiveness all around.

Agape4Robin
August 4th, 2005, 05:55 PM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive the anyway, so that you will be free from resentment, and so that you will hopefully be forgiven in turn, whether you recognize that you have done harm to others and repent of it or not.

We shoild realize that many times when do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it. And the same is true of when others cause us harm. Very few people intend to hurt other people. yet we hurt each other all the time. This is WHY we need forgiveness all around.
You took the words out of my mouth...... :thumb:

Justin (Wiccan)
August 4th, 2005, 06:00 PM
So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness? Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?

Both--how can you repent unless you're willing to accept someone else's repentance. ;)

Rimi
August 4th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Who is the forgiveness for? The forgiver or the forgivee?

Justin (Wiccan)
August 4th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Who is the forgiveness for? The forgiver or the forgivee?

The two cannot be separated.

Servo
August 4th, 2005, 07:12 PM
'If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him"

Not difficult to understand.

Rimi
August 4th, 2005, 07:28 PM
The two cannot be separated.

Huh? Sure they can! When we repent and God forgives, He doesn't do it to make Himself feel better. And certainly God does not forgive without repentence. If we go on the "forgive even if they don't repent" then we'd have to think that God does that. But we know He doesn't because He has stated plainly that there is a place prepared for unrepentent individuals.

Justin (Wiccan)
August 4th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Huh? Sure they can! When we repent and God forgives, He doesn't do it to make Himself feel better. And certainly God does not forgive without repentence. If we go on the "forgive even if they don't repent" then we'd have to think that God does that. But we know He doesn't because He has stated plainly that there is a place prepared for unrepentent individuals.

Ah, waitaminit--that's a completely different context, and while I agree that God certainly does not need our forgiveness, it's not a parallel. I was referring solely to forgiveness between people. Sorry about the confusion.

temple2006
August 4th, 2005, 07:50 PM
To be OK with yourself and others, you cannot hold grudges. Anger will not only feed your grudges but also eat your lunch in a physical way. I am not suggesting that you be big buddies with the unrepentent offender but Jesus says that we are to love each other and not vice versa.

Rimi
August 4th, 2005, 08:06 PM
Ah, waitaminit--that's a completely different context, and while I agree that God certainly does not need our forgiveness, it's not a parallel. I was referring solely to forgiveness between people. Sorry about the confusion.


Well, I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think you have it the way Jesus taught it. Of course, the most clear cut is Luke 17:3. But then there's how God forgives: repent first, then He will forgive. And Jesus said to be like the Father, right?

Also, a wonderful parable that Jesus taught is of the Wiccan Servant . . .,er, wait, that's the Wicked Servant. Matthew 18:23-35. Please read it and you'll see that there was confrontation, repentence, and only then forgiveness. The Servant didn't forgive JUST LIKE he was forgiven, and he paid dearly for it. So, how was he forgiven? Only after he repented. And so it is to be between people. Hope that makes sense.

Rimi
August 4th, 2005, 08:06 PM
P. S. Not that God needs our forgiveness . . . He must have our repentence before we forgive. And that is the example of God that we are to follow.

ebenz47037
August 4th, 2005, 09:25 PM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway, so that you will be free from resentment, and so that you will hopefully be forgiven in turn, whether you recognize that you have done harm to others and repent of it or not.

We should realize that many times when we do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it. And the same is true of when others cause us harm. Very few people intend to hurt other people. yet we hurt each other all the time. This is WHY we need forgiveness all around.

For a change (at least lately), I actually agree with you, PureX. There are some cases, if you don't forgive the person who has wronged you, you will be eaten alive with anger and resentment. I had to do this a couple of times, myself, because I was always so angry with my step-father and my mother. I had to forgive them even though they didn't repent of what I felt they did wrong. Once I did that, my resentment and anger with both of them went away.

cattyfan
August 4th, 2005, 09:29 PM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway, so that you will be free from resentment, and so that you will hopefully be forgiven in turn, whether you recognize that you have done harm to others and repent of it or not.

We should realize that many times when we do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it. And the same is true of when others cause us harm. Very few people intend to hurt other people. yet we hurt each other all the time. This is WHY we need forgiveness all around.


well stated! think I'll make this a post of the day :)

deathwish
August 4th, 2005, 09:35 PM
well stated! think I'll make this a post of the day :)

Indeed :)

Turbo
August 5th, 2005, 05:21 AM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway,
:nono: Contrast this with the words of Christ:

"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17


We should realize that many times when we do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it.That is one of the reasons why Christ said to rebuke whoever sins against you (and to forgive them if they repent). That is one of the reasons why rebuke is loving:


"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." Leviticus 19:17

Sozo
August 5th, 2005, 06:20 AM
I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway, so that you will be free from resentment, and so that you will hopefully be forgiven in turn, whether you recognize that you have done harm to others and repent of it or not.



Unless things of changed, I take it that you have not come to Christ for salvation. Is that correct, PureX?

In any case, as a Christian, I found it impossible to believe that God would ask us to do something that He Himself cannot do. Perhaps, in the long run, you are hoping that God will save you apart from repentance.






P.S.... I wouldn't count on it

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 06:36 AM
Turbo wrote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Purex

I think it means that when someone repents, tell them they are forgiven. I they do not repent, don't tell them they are forgiven, but forgive them anyway,


Contrast this with the words of Christ:
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17


Quote:
We should realize that many times when we do harm to others, we do so without realizing it, and maybe without even meaning to do it.

That is one of the reasons why Christ said to rebuke whoever sins against you (and to forgive them if they repent). That is one of the reasons why rebuke is loving:

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." Leviticus 19:17

Tried to good rep you, Turbo. Next time, eh. It IS loving to rebuke, tho not a "nice" feeling. You presented God's way of doing things per His word wonderfully.

Turbo
August 5th, 2005, 06:38 AM
Sozo... POTD! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=828282#post828282) :first:

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 06:39 AM
Unless things of changed, I take it that you have not come to Christ for salvation. Is that correct, PureX?

In any case, as a Christian, I found it impossible to believe that God would ask us to do something that He Himself cannot do. Perhaps, in the long run, you are hoping that God will save you apart from repentance.


P.S.... I wouldn't count on it



Sozo, well said. God doesn't ask us to do things opposite what he does, and forgiving without forgiveness would be opposed to God.

Points for you.

Turbo
August 5th, 2005, 06:39 AM
Thank you, Rimi.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 06:42 AM
:nono: Contrast this with the words of Christ:

"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17

That is one of the reasons why Christ said to rebuke whoever sins against you (and to forgive them if they repent). That is one of the reasons why rebuke is loving:


"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him." Leviticus 19:17You're just picking and choosing the quotes that you think support what you have already chosen to believe. People who enjoy "rebuking" other people only pay attention to the quotes that appear to them to justify their desire to rebuke others. And conversely, people who do not enjoy "rebuking" other people, and are made uncomfortable by it, tend to focuss only on the quotes that appear to support forgiveness across the board regardless of confrontation or repentance. I can't really tell anyone what's the "right" way according to God, or for them as individuals because we're all different, and our concept of and relationship with God is uniquely our own. Only in the end will we see through that glass clearly enough to know if we were "right" or "wrong". And maybe not even then.

Turbo
August 5th, 2005, 06:50 AM
You're just picking and choosing the quotes that you think support what you have already chosen to believe. People who enjoy "rebuking" other people only pay attention to the quotes that appear to them to justify their desire to rebuke others. And conversely, people who do not enjoy "rebuking" other people, and are made uncomfortable by it, tend to focuss only on the quotes that appear to support forgiveness across the board regardless of confrontation or repentance.God is not double-minded. Nowhere does God instruct people to forgive the unrepentant.


I can't really tell anyone what's the "right" way according to God,
Nice of you to confess this. :up:


or for them as individuals because we're all different, and our concept of and relationship with God is uniquely our own.God is the same regardless of different people's misconceptions about Him.


Only in the end will we see through that glass clearly enough to know if we were "right" or "wrong". And maybe not even then.
Speak for yourself. Some of us don't base our worldview on love of ignorance.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 06:56 AM
Purex, some of us can see God as He's presented Himself in Scriptures. And He said to rebuke. He does it Himself (Gomorrah, anybody?).

Servo
August 5th, 2005, 07:33 AM
Automatic forgiveness...

We Christians are teaching unbelievers that they need not repent, they are forgiven anyway.

How many people are in Hell right now because of this awful teaching?

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 07:39 AM
God is not double-minded. Nowhere does God instruct people to forgive the unrepentant.Clearly, there are other Christians who see it differently.

God is the same regardless of different people's misconceptions about Him.Probably so. But that doesn't change the fact that we are all conceptualizing God in our own unique way. Including you.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 07:41 AM
Automatic forgiveness...

We Christians are teaching unbelievers that they need not repent, they are forgiven anyway.

How many people are in Hell right now because of this awful teaching?That's just it. You don't know, do you.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 07:44 AM
That's right, Purex, some Christians disagree with us. We can't all be right. Let God decide. What does HE have to say.

Servo
August 5th, 2005, 07:52 AM
That's just it. You don't know, do you.

Well you follow that sick teaching and you sure HAVEN'T repented...

Poly
August 5th, 2005, 08:02 AM
Clearly, there are other Christians who see it differently.


:duh: So what?


Probably so. But that doesn't change the fact that we are all conceptualizing God in our own unique way. Including you.

Wrong. Some of us feel we owe God the respect to find out what he absolutely wants rather than what we want out of Him.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:07 AM
That goes with something Bob Enyart said on his show, at least once: Don't do what you THINK is right. God hates that. Find out what IS right and then go and do that!"

I might also add, that we're not to do what we FEEL is right. Doing the right thing can be humbling, frightening, or against everything we thought we knew till that moment.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 08:22 AM
That goes with something Bob Enyart said on his show, at least once: Don't do what you THINK is right. God hates that. Find out what IS right and then go and do that!"

I might also add, that we're not to do what we FEEL is right. Doing the right thing can be humbling, frightening, or against everything we thought we knew till that moment.
Hmmm, so if this is what Bob Enyart thinks that God hates, than wouldn't God hate Bob Enyart thinking so?

So do you think Bob Enyart is right about this, or do you feel that Bob Enyart is right about this?

Do you think that your interpretation of scripture is the only correct interpretation, or do you feel that your interpretation of scripture is the only correct interpretation?

Do you think that because you've chosen to believe that something is true, that it must then be true, or do you feel that because you have chosen to believe that something is true, that it has to be true?

Can Bob Enyart know something without thinking it? Can you know the truth without feeling it to be true?

Seems to me that this whole line of reasoning is self-contradictory and irrational. How can Bob Enyart know something to be true without thinking it's true, and feeling that it's true? How can you know Bob Enyart is right without thinking that he's right and feeling that he's right?

It makes no sense.

Poly
August 5th, 2005, 08:27 AM
That goes with something Bob Enyart said on his show, at least once: Don't do what you THINK is right. God hates that. Find out what IS right and then go and do that!"

I might also add, that we're not to do what we FEEL is right. Doing the right thing can be humbling, frightening, or against everything we thought we knew till that moment.

Good point, Rimi. Unfortunately today what many think is right is based too much what feels good or what is comfortable for them. A dangerous way to go.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 08:28 AM
Some of us feel we owe God the respect to find out what he absolutely wants rather than what we want out of Him.Sure, so you looked in the bible and saw what you wanted to see there, and decided that what God absolutely wants is what you wanted God to want all along. What a surprise.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:28 AM
Perhaps the emphasis was wrong. OK. So, don't do what YOU think is right. Find out what GOD says is right and then go and do that."

Clear enough for ya?

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Purex, some read the bible, see exactly what it says, don't like it and then say that's not what God meant. They'll skew all those verses that makes them uncomfortable by using the "God is Love" verse. But some a noble enough to see what's actually there, in context, and accept it for what it is, and trust God.

beanieboy
August 5th, 2005, 08:30 AM
If you are Christian, and have received the Holy Spirit, and Christ is living in you, and you have become a new creation, your thoughts are not effected? Your heart is not changed? You don't have a conscience that guides you?

Or your conscious says to do one thing, and someone's interpretation of the bible says to do another, and so you listen to that person's interpretation?

You don't follow your heart?

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 08:33 AM
Perhaps the emphasis was wrong. OK. So, don't do what YOU think is right. Find out what GOD says is right and then go and do that."

Clear enough for ya?But how are you going to do that? It's YOU who thinks and feels that God wrote the bible. So when you go to the bible to see "what God really wants" you're still doing what YOU think and feel will clarify God's will.

There is no way for you or Bob Enyart or anyone else to escape the fact that what they believe to be true is based on their own thoughts and feelings about what is true.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 08:36 AM
Purex, some read the bible, see exactly what it says, don't like it and then say that's not what God meant. They'll skew all those verses that makes them uncomfortable by using the "God is Love" verse. But some a noble enough to see what's actually there, in context, and accept it for what it is, and trust God.Everyone thinks and feels that they are reading the text correctly. The only difference is that some people realize that thinking so does not make it so, and some don't.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:41 AM
But how are you going to do that? It's YOU who thinks and feels that God wrote the bible. So when you go to the bible to see "what God really wants" you're still doing what YOU think and feel will clarify God's will.

There is no way for you or Bob Enyart or anyone else to escape the fact that what they believe to be true is based on their own thoughts and feelings about what is true.

WELL, DUH! That's right! I might actually be in agreement with God! Oh, wait, not being a fan of God's you'd have a problem with that.

I don't get around that. But I compare what I think to be right to what God has to say. If I'm wrong I do what God says. For example, I used to believe I had to forgive anyone who'd ever hurt me. Then I read what God has to say on it. Now I don't do that anymore even tho was against anything I'd been taught by parents, nuns, etc. They didn't match what God said on the subject. It was very foreign at first, alien. But with time, I've grown more comfortable with God's will in this.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:42 AM
Everyone thinks and feels that they are reading the text correctly. The only difference is that some people realize that thinking so does not make it so, and some don't.


And there we agree. Homos want to see acceptance in Scriptures, and have to twist it to make it so. Same with the forgiveness thing. Same with preachers who want to bilk little old ladies.

Poly
August 5th, 2005, 08:44 AM
And there we agree. Homos want to see acceptance in Scriptures, and have to twist it to make it so. Same with the forgiveness thing. Same with preachers who want to bilk little old ladies.

PureX is never going to see this, Rimi. There's not much hope in getting a person to see what is right when he thinks that no one can say it is absolutely wrong to molest a child.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 08:46 AM
Ugh, he doesn't see that????

Where's my ignore button again . . .

ebenz47037
August 5th, 2005, 04:19 PM
I'm kind of torn on this subject. I agree with PureX about forgiving because anger and resentment can tear a person apart. I know this from personal experience. But, I also agree with the others who say that you're supposed to forgive when the person repents.

But, another thing, that scripture about forgiving when the person repents says that when a brother sins against you and repents. To me, a brother is a fellow Christian. It says nothing about non-christians who sin against you. If your anger at someone who isn't a Christian for hurting you in some way is tearing you apart and making you live a life of anger, don't you think that forgiving that person for your own peace is right? I know that forgiving my step-father and mother changed me totally.

Rimi
August 5th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I understand what you mean, Nori, I used to think it was only a Christian brother. Yet the same Greek work is used repeated for brother in the NT, when Jesus said it and when Paul said it -- the same word. So is a brother a Christian? Is a brother a Jew? Brother is anyone, is how I see it now. So, with that in mind, the saints under the altar in Rev are there in the very presense of God . . . yet, they demand vengeance. They're not crying for forgiveness so they can get over it and enjoy Heaven and time with God, just to be at peace. Also, not forgiving doesn't seem to tear God up.

It's not that we don't forgive that hurts us. It's that the perp doesn't ask for forgiveness. That hurts because it just emphasizes how little we meant, how devalued we are in the perp's eyes. It's insult to awful injury. That's what hurts. We want desparately to walk holy before God and think by forgiving that we'll be doing that. But it doesn't work. God knows this! and promises He will repay. It is His promise of vengeance and justice that should give us peace and the ability to move on and be released from it. Trusting in Him is our peace. He is our freedom.

Truppenzwei
August 5th, 2005, 04:56 PM
I think the thing to be borne in mind is that forgiveness is separate from judgement.

Those who say God does not forgive us before we repent I simply don't think you understand what forgiveness is.

I fully believe that God forgave us before we repented - it is that forgiveness that allowed God to send His Son to die for us. I mean think about it - could a loving father really send his own son to die as a payment for people he had not forgiven?

But this unconditional forgiveness by God is what enabled Him to act the way He did in sending Jesus down. It did not make what we had done right - it was Christ's blood that did that. No, the forgiveness was necessary before the act. Being forgiven does not mean that we do not have to face the consequences of our actions, no this can be seen in the fact that Christ had to die to allow us to escape the consequences of our actions.

To put it another way - If someone hurts us or does something we regard as a sin against us then we should forgive them regardless of whether they repent or not. Why? Because this initial forgiveness is what enable US to walk as though the act did not happen and thus not allow it to dictate our future. For the other person howver to walk as though the act had never happened they must repent. This is what can be seen with the work of the cross and what it is to be a Christian. God forgave our sins, thus enabling Him to act in a fully loving way in arranging a ransom for us. This act where Christ went to the cross paid the price for ALL of our sins. However, even though Christ paid the price for ALL mankind, only those who repent and thus move themselves to a state where they can walk as though the act did not happen will see the benefit of Christ paying the price He did.

Now if we take the verse that is being bandied about;


Luk 17:1 He said to His disciples, "It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
Luk 17:2 "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luk 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

Here we can see that this verse is rather specifically about disruptive brethren - it is not about sins against you as an individual but rather someone who is being disruptive. To use it to justify never forgiving without the other person repenting first is flawed in my opinion.

I'm sorry if this post doesn't make much sense I'll come back tomorrow after I've had some sleep :)

T.

kmoney
August 5th, 2005, 05:47 PM
For those who believe we should only forgive when the offender repents....

how do you interpret the whole "love your enemies" scriptures. turn the other cheek etc...

also, if a friend sins against you and doesn't ask for forgiveness, do you throw that friendship away? to you "rebuke" them and treat them as the tax collectors and heathens as the verse says? does it matter on how 'bad" the sin is?

I'm not totally sure what I think, I go back and forth. I think that only forgiving when the person repents can be ok, but I also think that it can be dangerous to do. You have to make sure bitterness/resentment/hate doesn't take over. Unless the offender is a person you have ongoing interaction with forgiving them won't have much of a practical effect on your day to day life. If someone doesn't forgive you do you make a conscious effort to NOT forgive them? What is included in not forgiving them?

For the most part I have believed that we should always forgive and just let it into God's hands. God is just and will work for you if you give it to God. I understand that by witholding forgiveness you aren't necessarily attempting to get back at the offender, but I still think that not forgiving has potential dangers.

If they repent than forgiveness is for both of you. If they don't repent than I forgiving them is basically for you.

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 06:02 PM
To put it another way - If someone hurts us or does something we regard as a sin against us then we should forgive them regardless of whether they repent or not. Why? Because this initial forgiveness is what enable US to walk as though the act did not happen and thus not allow it to dictate our future. For the other person however to walk as though the act had never happened they must repent. This is what can be seen with the work of the cross and what it is to be a Christian. God forgave our sins, thus enabling Him to act in a fully loving way in arranging a ransom for us.This is an excellent observation. And I believe it is the truth.

Sozo
August 5th, 2005, 06:30 PM
I fully believe that God forgave us before we repented - it is that forgiveness that allowed God to send His Son to die for us. I mean think about it - could a loving father really send his own son to die as a payment for people he had not forgiven?

. It is because of the blood shed by Jesus that we can be forgiven, not that God forgave us and then sacrificed His Son. Forgiveness is "in Him", that is, in His life! NO ONE "repents" from sin for forgiveness; we repent of unbelief. We agree with God (confess) that we are sinners, but it is when we come to God by grace through faith in Christ that we receive the forgiveness.

Servo
August 5th, 2005, 09:07 PM
But how are you going to do that? It's YOU who thinks and feels that God wrote the bible. So when you go to the bible to see "what God really wants" you're still doing what YOU think and feel will clarify God's will.

There is no way for you or Bob Enyart or anyone else to escape the fact that what they believe to be true is based on their own thoughts and feelings about what is true.



Why are you mentioning Bob Enyart? What does he have to do with this thread?

(Pure XXX, insert dumb answer here.)

I have seen Bible verses quoted and ignored, but you want to talk about Bob Enyart.
Go to the BEL forum if you want to talk about him. Here we are trying to discuss God, His Word, and the subject of forgiveness.

Servo
August 5th, 2005, 09:12 PM
For those who believe we should only forgive when the offender repents....

how do you interpret the whole "love your enemies" scriptures. turn the other cheek etc...




We should have an attitude of forgiveness, forgive those who repent.

So you interpret it as forgive everyone each time every time, even if they don't repent?

PureX
August 5th, 2005, 09:19 PM
Why are you mentioning Bob Enyart? What does he have to do with this thread?
I have seen Bible verses quoted and ignored, but you want to talk about Bob Enyart.
Go to the BEL forum if you want to talk about him. Here we are trying to discuss God, His Word, and the subject of forgiveness.There were several posts written in response to this one (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=828405&postcount=33). Perhaps if you'd actually followed the thread a little before you started spouting off, you'd have seen it.

skeptech
August 6th, 2005, 12:19 AM
To forgive someone is to give them another chance. But that doesn't mean that they don't need to pay the price for their transgression, or that they should be entrusted to the same circumstances. I'm having difficulty pinning down one set of conditions for forgiveness. For instance:

- It might be a transgression committed by my child. Forgiveness is immediate, but there is a corresponding consequence that they must bear, in the hopes of learning not to do it the next time. (Yeah, right.... I'm ever the optimist!)

- It might be an unintentional transgression committed by someone who should know better. Then I'll forgive with no conditions (after, of course, I understand that it was in fact unintentional), but I'll be careful about entrusting the person under the same circumstances until they've shown that they're trustworthy.

- It might be an intentional transgression by someone who knew better. Then, I will forgive after either a)they have demonstrated that they are truly sorry, and would do different under the same circumstances; or b)they have paid the price and made amends, in some form (jail time, monetary, community service, etc.) Again, I'll be careful about trusting them until they've demonstrated trustworthiness.

Regardless of the circumstance, I prefer "forgive and learn" to "forgive and forget".

Purex makes some excellent points, but is forgiveness the only path to being free from resentment? I'm not so sure.... Can't I not forgive someone, and at the same time not feel resentment? I'll have to think about this some more....

PureX
August 6th, 2005, 07:51 AM
To forgive someone is to give them another chance. But that doesn't mean that they don't need to pay the price for their transgression, or that they should be entrusted to the same circumstances. I'm having difficulty pinning down one set of conditions for forgiveness. For instance:

- It might be a transgression committed by my child. Forgiveness is immediate, but there is a corresponding consequence that they must bear, in the hopes of learning not to do it the next time. (Yeah, right.... I'm ever the optimist!)

- It might be an unintentional transgression committed by someone who should know better. Then I'll forgive with no conditions (after, of course, I understand that it was in fact unintentional), but I'll be careful about entrusting the person under the same circumstances until they've shown that they're trustworthy.

- It might be an intentional transgression by someone who knew better. Then, I will forgive after either a)they have demonstrated that they are truly sorry, and would do different under the same circumstances; or b)they have paid the price and made amends, in some form (jail time, monetary, community service, etc.) Again, I'll be careful about trusting them until they've demonstrated trustworthiness.

Regardless of the circumstance, I prefer "forgive and learn" to "forgive and forget".Hmmmm. Seems to me that what you're talking about here aren't degrees of forgiveness, but degrees of offense. You aren't as offended when a child does something hurtful to you because you know that they aren't fully cognizant of what they do, or of how what they do effects other people. And the same may go for an adult that is not aware, specifically, that they have caused you harm. Though in that case you would expect them to repent once they have been informed of how their behavior has harmed you. And you would be most offended by someone who was cognizant of the harm they caused you and did it anyway, or worse, intended to harm you specifically.

The different responses to these different scenarios has to do with the degree of their offense. And you're saying that the degree to which you can forgive others is directly related to the degree of their offense against you. My guess is that this is true of most of us, but I'm not sure that this really answers the question at hand. The one thing that the bible does not seem to say is that we should forgive other people in proportion to the offenses they've committed against us: quick and full forgiveness for minor offenses, slow and conditioned forgiveness for major offenses, etc. The quotes that I've seen so far all seem to indicate that we should either forgive universally, or that we should forgive only those who repent.

For me to choose among only these two option, I would need to figure out exactly what it means to "forgive". And I think forgiveness refers to the offense committed, and not to the consequences that result for the person who committed the offense. I'll give an example. Let's say that Bob Enyart stole my car (*winking at Shimei*). If he is not caught, and I never see my car again, I can still forgive this unknown criminal for having stolen my car, even though I would still want the criminal discovered and the car returned. What I'm forgiving is the act committed against me: the theft of my property. I am not forgiving the consequences to the offender if he is discovered and apprehended. In fact, I'm not sure it's even my place to forgive the consequences of someone else's actions. And part of the consequence to the offender will be that he is removed from his society for some amount of time (as he has shown himself to be anti-social) and that he will be expected to return the car (or otherwise pay material restitution for it). So I can forgive him of the offense he has committed against me, but that does not mean he is relieved of the consequences of his having committed that offense. The theft of my car is an offense against all of society, not just an offense against me. I can forgive the offense against me, but I don't have the right or the ability to forgive the portion of the offense that applies to the whole of my society.

So if a child commits a non-criminal offense against me, and I forgive that offense, that's it. The whole incident is finished (except in the case of a child, it's important that they learn from such an incident, so even though they are fully forgiven, we may need to treat the incident as if it were greater than it is, just so they can understand the more serious consequences that would be involved in offending people if they were to continue behaving that way when they grow up).

If an adult commits a non-criminal offense against me and is unaware that they have done so, and I forgive that offense, then likewise the incident is finished. In some cases I may choose to inform them of what they've done, and in some cases I may not. In some cases I would expect a grown up to repent of their having inadvertently offended me, yet I'm sure that in some cases they will not. But these are just the kinds of choices that we as adults make while living in communities with each other. They aren't really about the forgiveness, they're more about the "rules of civility" and our own moral codes of behavior, and we don't all follow the same rules that way.

If someone commits a criminal offense against me, and I forgive them, they're still responsible for the consequences of their having committed a crime, because a criminal offense is not just an offense against me, but is an offense against the whole of society. I can forgive that part of the crime that was a direct offense against me, but it's not in my ability to forgive any more then that. And the criminal will still be held responsible for having committed the crime. Whether he repents of his crime or not will not be my concern. That's a concern for society as a whole to weigh. We remove criminals from amongst us because they have proven themselves to be anti-social. If a criminal then repents of that anti-social behavior, it's up to society to decide if that will mitigate his removal from society in some way, or not. But that society's business. It's not mine. I will have already forgiven him of that which he has done to me.

I also realize that forgiveness is easier for me to give when the offense is slight, and is far more difficult to give when the offense is great. But that will be my own personal issue, and I'll deal with it as best I can. And I believe this applies to other people, too. When I see the family of a victim on TV, all twisted up with the pain of the loss of their loved one, and clamoring for violent revenge, I know that they are wrong, and that they desperately need to forgive the offender to regain their own inner peace. But I also understand that it may take them many years to learn how to forgive such a heneous offense, and that they may never be able to do so. And if I were them, I may never learn to forgive such a thing, wither.

But I also know that their anger and hatred for the criminal is destroying them, no matter how justified that anger and hatred would seem to be.

So keeping all this in mind, I believe that Jesus intended that we forgive, always, as I believe he did the same. But that does not mean that there are no consequences for our or other people having committed an offense. And whether or not repentance will mitigate the consequences of our or someone else's offense is an issue between the offender and his society in this life, and between the offender and God in the next. Whether or not other people repent is not my business, and has nothing to do with my forgiving them of their offense against me.

Purex makes some excellent points, but is forgiveness the only path to being free from resentment? I'm not so sure.... Can't I not forgive someone, and at the same time not feel resentment?I don't think so. I think that unless we learn to forgive, we will wallow in resentment. It may not always be conscious resentment, and it may not always remain directly attached to the original offense, but it will remain within us, and will poison us in time. I say this because this has been my own experience with resentments, and with the healing power of forgiveness.

Truppenzwei
August 6th, 2005, 10:05 AM
It is because of the blood shed by Jesus that we can be forgiven, not that God forgave us and then sacrificed His Son. Forgiveness is "in Him", that is, in His life! NO ONE "repents" from sin for forgiveness; we repent of unbelief. We agree with God (confess) that we are sinners, but it is when we come to God by grace through faith in Christ that we receive the forgiveness.
No Sozo, it is because of the blood shed by Christ that we can be ransomed from the consequences of our sins. It is the forgiveness that is in God that enabled the ransom to be paid.

You say no one repents from sin for forgiveness, yet what else is unbelief but sin? It is when we come to God via the ransom paid by Christ that we are able to stand justifed by His Blood and free from the consequences of our sin.

The forgiveness of the offense is unconditionally given. What is conditional is the ransom - to be ransomed we must confess and believe in Christ and follow Him. If we do not do this then we are choosing to bear the consequences of our sin by ourselves. It does not change the fact that God forgave us the offence.

Sozo
August 6th, 2005, 10:27 AM
No Sozo, it is because of the blood shed by Christ that we can be ransomed from the consequences of our sins. It is the forgiveness that is in God that enabled the ransom to be paid.

You say no one repents from sin for forgiveness, yet what else is unbelief but sin? It is when we come to God via the ransom paid by Christ that we are able to stand justifed by His Blood and free from the consequences of our sin.

The forgiveness of the offense is unconditionally given. What is conditional is the ransom - to be ransomed we must confess and believe in Christ and follow Him. If we do not do this then we are choosing to bear the consequences of our sin by ourselves. It does not change the fact that God forgave us the offence.


That is ridiculous!

Jesus had to pay the debt BEFORE we could be forgiven of it.

Where did you come up with your convoluted idea?

Servo
August 6th, 2005, 01:37 PM
Forgiving someone who is unrepentant is like standing at the alter all by yourself and saying "I do".

Lovejoy
August 6th, 2005, 01:57 PM
No Sozo, it is because of the blood shed by Christ that we can be ransomed from the consequences of our sins. It is the forgiveness that is in God that enabled the ransom to be paid.

You say no one repents from sin for forgiveness, yet what else is unbelief but sin? It is when we come to God via the ransom paid by Christ that we are able to stand justifed by His Blood and free from the consequences of our sin.

The forgiveness of the offense is unconditionally given. What is conditional is the ransom - to be ransomed we must confess and believe in Christ and follow Him. If we do not do this then we are choosing to bear the consequences of our sin by ourselves. It does not change the fact that God forgave us the offence.
You seem to be trying to make a case for an unconditionally forgiving God that was just hung up on the need for a sacrifice. And yet, Leviticus 4:26 places atonement squarely before any forgiveness. Even Hebrews 9:22 contradicts you, stating that there is no forgiveness without the Blood. It does not state that it releases some pent up forgiveness, or even imply it.

Truppenzwei
August 6th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

Lovejoy
August 6th, 2005, 04:32 PM
Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?
Hmm. I don't know. There are so many instances where God does, indeed, hold the sin of a man (or woman) against them. David lost his first born. Moses (nor any of the first generation of those leaving Egypt) never entered the promised land. How many people suffered at the improper handling of the Ark, at least until atonement was made? Certainly there are many instances in which God does relent on punishment, yet there are also many instances in which He punished to the full extent of a person's guilt. Even in the NT. Only repentance ever seemed to forestall His wrath with full efficacy.

Truppenzwei
August 6th, 2005, 04:41 PM
Hmm. I don't know. There are so many instances where God does, indeed, hold the sin of a man (or woman) against them. David lost his first born. Moses (nor any of the first generation of those leaving Egypt) never entered the promised land. How many people suffered at the improper handling of the Ark, at least until atonement was made? Certainly there are many instances in which God does relent on punishment, yet there are also many instances in which He punished to the full extent of a person's guilt. Even in the NT. Only repentance ever seemed to forestall His wrath with full efficacy.
Certainly I would agree that there are many instances where we see specific offenses being held against a person, this does not detract from the fact that the vast majority of their debt (ie that handed down from Adam) was not held against them unless they did something that really dishonoured God.

I'm not sure if that makes things clearer or not but I'm a bit tired.

Lovejoy
August 6th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Certainly I would agree that there are many instances where we see specific offenses being held against a person, this does not detract from the fact that the vast majority of their debt (ie that handed down from Adam) was not held against them unless they did something that really dishonoured God.

I'm not sure if that makes things clearer or not but I'm a bit tired.
No, I see your point. I will have to think about it a bit before I return to the matter. Certainly, I do not wish to be the one trying to portray God as unforgiving. My question is merely to the efficacy and need of repentance for forgiveness. Certainly, the fact that we are here at all is a testament to a gracious God.

Truppenzwei
August 6th, 2005, 04:53 PM
No, I see your point. I will have to think about it a bit before I return to the matter. Certainly, I do not wish to be the one trying to portray God as unforgiving. My question is merely to the efficacy and need of repentance for forgiveness. Certainly, the fact that we are here at all is a testament to a gracious God.

I have found that it helps to think of forgiveness as being the 'not holding an offense against someone' part and I tend to use the phrase remission of sins to cover the part that requires repentance.

Using the above paragraph as definition I'll try and rephrase what I mean.
God forgiving us (as in not holding our offense against us) was necessary for Him to be able to walk in a way where He could send His Son to die for us in order to remit our offenses. For us to walk in a way where our sins have been remitted we MUST repent first.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

Rimi
August 6th, 2005, 10:19 PM
If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.

Lovejoy
August 6th, 2005, 11:12 PM
If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.
I begin to think that what he is trying to portray is more God's heart on the matter, rather than our actual reality. The reality is that Christ is the only path, but God stilll wants us all there. Only those that choose Christ will be with God, but it was not because God did not want to forgive those that didn't make it. I can see his point, in that it is only through the forbearance of God (as alluded to in Romans 3:25) that we ever even had the opportunity to have propitiation through Christ. Anyway, this all out of my league, but I see what he is trying to portray. However, it is still only through Christ that we receive efficacious Grace.

Truppenzwei
August 7th, 2005, 08:41 AM
If God did not hold an offense against us, because we'd definiately offended, then there was no reason for Christ to die. Period.

God made a way, a door, in Christ's death and blood. But it is for the offender to take that way, pass thru that door, for God's forgiveness to take effect. So, there is no forgiveness withoiut repentence.
I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

It is in this sense that he overlooks the offence - he is deferring payment for want of a better phrase. The payment is still due - it is a debt owed by Adam and Eve. It is this debt that is passed on to us as well.

You are getting too hung up on one meaning of the word forgive.

God chooses to overlook the debt we owe. BUT, he can only overlook it for a limited time, there comes a point when we have to pay the debt we owe. It is at this point that God cannot choose to overlook the debt anymore, this point occurs when we die. However, God wanted us free of this debt and so He arranged for the debt to be paid through the blood of Christ, therefore Christ went to the cross and paid the debt that we owed. So now we have a situation where, IF we repent, Christ will take over the debt we owe and has arranged payment of it on the cross. If we do not repent then WE must pay the debt we owe when we die.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you Rimi. Where you say there is no forgiveness without repentance, I would say it would be more accurate to say there is no remission of sins without repentance.

T.

Sozo
August 7th, 2005, 08:53 AM
I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

He most certainly did! The payment for sin is death, and Adam and Eve were separated from the LIFE of God on the day they ate from the tree. Salvation is the restoration of the LIFE, and that LIFE is the LIFE of Christ in which we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sin.

"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men."

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."

"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Jesus had to pay the debt BEFORE we could be forgiven of it.If God loved us while we were dead in our transgressions (Eph. 2:4,5), and love covers all sins (Pr. 10:12), then God forgave our sins BEFORE Jesus dies on the cross, as seen in Christ's ministry before his death (Lk. 5:20; 7:48).

Peace

###

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 09:44 AM
Forgiving someone who is unrepentant is like standing at the alter all by yourself and saying "I do".Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

###

Turbo
August 7th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

###
What did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them for? What did they not know they were doing?

lovemeorhateme
August 7th, 2005, 10:20 AM
Right I'll try and explain this slowly this time.

Forgiveness is not a word that has a single meaning, it conveys many different things, some of which are interchangeable and some which are not.

One meaning is that of overlooking an offense, treating the offender as though they had not committed an offense i.e. treating them as though they were not guilty - (even though they are guilty).
One might think of this as being gracious.

Another meaning is that of paying the price or penalty incurred by an offense. With this meaning the offender is still treated as though they were not guilty, but this time as the penalty has been paid they are in effect now not guilty of committing the offense. Think of this as remission.

Now what I am trying to say is that after Adam & Eve did their thang way back when - God was gracious, he chose to not kill them straight away but rather instituted a limited atonement through the Law while arranging for remission of their debt to occur through Christ.

So we have two stages to forgiveness if you like a graciousness, which consists of an overlooking of an offense ie not holding an offense against the offender. And an actual remission of the offense ie where the offender is actually justified by a payment of the penalty due for committing the offense.

Now when I say God had to forgive us before Christ could pay the debt we owed I mean the first sense of the word, that of not holding the offense we were guilty of against us. Now notice even though God is choosing not to hold our offense against us we ARE guilty of it. We are still sinners who face a penalty (death) for the offense we committed even though we can achieve a limited atonement via the Law. Our sins are still marked against our account at this stage.

What Christ did for us by going to the cross was to pay the penalty for the offense so that when we fulfill the conditions required ie repentance then we become not guilty of the offense. Christ in essence has said to us "Look, I know your guilty of this and the only way for the debt to be paid is for you to die. But, I'll die for you and pay the price for you - all you have to do is follow me and you will be free and clear." In essence at this stage if we repent then the sins that are being held against our account are transferred onto Christ's account.

Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?

I agree with you. That is I think the best explanation I have heard on this thread so far.

lovemeorhateme
August 7th, 2005, 10:21 AM
When Jesus was on the cross, being crucified, the people doing it to him were obviously not repentant. So why did he then say, 'Father, forgive them'?

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 10:24 AM
Lovejoy,

I can't answer for T, but I'd like to take a shot at addressing your post. :)
You seem to be trying to make a case for an unconditionally forgiving God that was just hung up on the need for a sacrifice.It was not a matter of being hung up on the need for a sacrifice. A perfect sacrifice was needed for the transgressions under the first covenant...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think people are under a false assumption that Jesus died for the transgressions under the first and second covenants; but forgiveness under the second covenant is a free gift. It cannot be conditional on a blood atonement sacrifice, which is absolutely a work of the law.

We receive the PROMISE of eternal inheritance under the new covenant because Jesus removed the obstacle of the first covenant, redeeming those who lived and died under it.

Matthew 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those were the saints who had lived and died under the old covenant. They are now before the throne of God...

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They made their robes white in the blood of the lamb. In other words, their transgressions under the first covenant were redeemed by Christ's blood atonement sacrifice.

In contrast, Revelation 6 describes the souls under the altar who were given white robes. Under the altar is symblic language for the earth, and the souls are those living after the cross. They are given white robes as opposed to the great multitude who have made their robes white in the blood of the lamb.


And yet, Leviticus 4:26 places atonement squarely before any forgiveness.True. What covenant does the blood atonement appear under? The old covenant, not the new covenant.

Even Hebrews 9:22 contradicts you, stating that there is no forgiveness without the Blood. It does not state that it releases some pent up forgiveness, or even imply it.Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness?

Peace

###

Turbo
August 7th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness? Christ's blood is required for forgiveness regardless of covenant.

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 10:32 AM
What did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them for? What did they not know they were doing?I can only assume, Turbo. Here's what we don't have to assume:

1. They thought they were killing someone who claimed to be the Messiah.
2. Some participating in the execution knew Jesus was innocent.
3. The executioners were not repentant before the execution.
4. Jesus asked the Father to forgive them.
5. They were forgiven.


Peace

###

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Christ's blood is required for forgiveness regardless of covenant.Please explain to us how you obtain forgiveness using blood under this covenant?

Then, since you are going to be a father, please explain how you daughter will obtain forgiveness through Christ's blood in light of Paul's assertion that she is already clean and holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Peace

###

Turbo
August 7th, 2005, 11:40 AM
I can only assume, Turbo. Here's what we don't have to assume:

1. They thought they were killing someone who claimed to be the Messiah.
So they Jesus wasn't asking that they be forgiven for that, right?

2. Some participating in the execution knew Jesus was innocent.Did anyone think Jesus was guilty of a capital crime?

3. The executioners were not repentant before the execution.True.

4. Jesus asked the Father to forgive them....for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.

5. They were forgiven....for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.

Turbo
August 7th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Please explain to us how you obtain forgiveness using blood under this covenant?By accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, Christ shed blood cleansed me and made me holy.

Do you think it was it necessary for Christ do die in order for you to be saved?


Then, since you are going to be a father...[/url]I already am a father.

[quote]please explain how you daughter will obtain forgiveness through Christ's blood in light of Paul's assertion that she is already clean and holy.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 1 Corinthians 7:12-16

Paul did not assert that believer's children will not need Christ. My daughter will need to accept Christ as her Savior as much as anyone else does.


for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 12:06 PM
So they Jesus wasn't asking that they be forgiven for that, right?
Did anyone think Jesus was guilty of a capital crime?
True.
...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.
...for what they didn't know they were doing. And you haven't figured out what that was.What's your point, Turbo? If they didn't know, they couldn't have repented, and thus we have a request for forgiveness from God to himself (unless you don't believe Jesus is God) before repentance. That was my point in addressing Shimei's post.

Peace

###

BillyBob
August 7th, 2005, 12:06 PM
I'll never forgive lovemeorhateme for starting this thread.

[or for coming up with such a long username ]

Servo
August 7th, 2005, 12:15 PM
What's your point, Turbo? If they didn't know, they couldn't have repented,

That is why Jesus said what He said.

Do you think there was a specific sin that Jesus forgave them for? Or was it just general forgiveness for all there sins?




and thus we have a request for forgiveness from God to himself (unless you don't believe Jesus is God) before repentance. That was my point in addressing Shimei's post.



Do you believe that unrepentant sinners are ever forgiven?

BillyBob
August 7th, 2005, 12:19 PM
LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 12:29 PM
By accepting the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior, Christ shed blood cleansed me and made me holy.His literal blood, or what his blood represented?

How about the disciples? Jesus told them BEFORE the cross that they were already clean...

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Were the disciples clean through the word which Christ spoke to them, or was it the blood that cleaned them after the cross?


Do you think it was it necessary for Christ do die in order for you to be saved?Absolutely! How could God's promise to Abraham be true if his prophecies about Jesus were false? How can a new covenant be in force when an old one still remains in force?


Paul did not assert that believer's children will not need Christ. My daughter will need to accept Christ as her Savior as much as anyone else does.Isn't your daughter already clean and holy, like Paul claims? You seem to be ignoring that, and what it means. What do you think Paul meant when he stated that a believers children are clean and holy?



for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26[/indent]True. Nothing I have stated contradicts Romans 3:23-26.

Are you saying that your daughter has already sinned? If not, what need does she have for blood? If she dies, God forbid, as an infant, will she be saved even though she never sinned and was never "washed" in Jesus' blood?

Peace

###

kmoney
August 7th, 2005, 12:34 PM
We should have an attitude of forgiveness, forgive those who repent.

So you interpret it as forgive everyone each time every time, even if they don't repent?
Like I said before, I have basically thought that we should forgive with or without the person coming to you in repentance, but I am open to changing my thinking on this question. When you don't forgive someone, is it just a mental thing for you? Or do you actually "rebuke" and ignore them. What does the unforgiving entail?

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 12:42 PM
That is why Jesus said what He said.

Do you think there was a specific sin that Jesus forgave them for? Or was it just general forgiveness for all there sins?I would have to assume. Regardless, it is an example of love covering sin.

Do you believe that unrepentant sinners are ever forgiven?Yes. I think Jesus proved that on the cross.

What good is forgiveness from God when a person does not understand it, or refuses to repent and turn from sin?

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Don't miss what Jesus told them. "If you were blind, ye should have no sin." That was said BEFORE the cross.

Peace

###

temple2006
August 7th, 2005, 02:52 PM
For instance.....I have a half-sister who refuses to communicate with me in any way. She does not answer letters, refuses to acknowledge invitations, etc. This has been the case since 1968. I have no idea why. What can I possibly repent of since I have no quarrel with her. I have forgiven her (accepted the situation) and I stand ready to have a relationship with her should she so desire. I weep, not for myself but for her, that she is at a point where she cannot grasp the hand that is extended to her in friendship.........WHY?......I guess she expects me to apologize for whatever it is that she holds against me. But how can I do that when I don't know what the problem is? To cut off communication with someone is a very serious thing. Do you now see what not forgiving the unrepentant can do?

DaringlyStupid
August 7th, 2005, 03:24 PM
For instance.....I have a half-sister who refuses to communicate with me in any way. She does not answer letters, refuses to acknowledge invitations, etc. This has been the case since 1968. I have no idea why. What can I possibly repent of since I have no quarrel with her. I have forgiven her (accepted the situation) and I stand ready to have a relationship with her should she so desire. I weep, not for myself but for her, that she is at a point where she cannot grasp the hand that is extended to her in friendship.........WHY?......I guess she expects me to apologize for whatever it is that she holds against me. But how can I do that when I don't know what the problem is? To cut off communication with someone is a very serious thing. Do you now see what not forgiving the unrepentant can do?
She should have rebuked you in hopes that you would repent and she could forgive you (Luke 17:3).

If she did rebuke you and would not repent... that would be a different story.

Lovejoy
August 7th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Lovejoy,

I can't answer for T, but I'd like to take a shot at addressing your post. :)It was not a matter of being hung up on the need for a sacrifice. A perfect sacrifice was needed for the transgressions under the first covenant...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I think people are under a false assumption that Jesus died for the transgressions under the first and second covenants; but forgiveness under the second covenant is a free gift. It cannot be conditional on a blood atonement sacrifice, which is absolutely a work of the law.

We receive the PROMISE of eternal inheritance under the new covenant because Jesus removed the obstacle of the first covenant, redeeming those who lived and died under it.

Matthew 27:52,53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those were the saints who had lived and died under the old covenant. They are now before the throne of God...

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

They made their robes white in the blood of the lamb. In other words, their transgressions under the first covenant were redeemed by Christ's blood atonement sacrifice.

In contrast, Revelation 6 describes the souls under the altar who were given white robes. Under the altar is symblic language for the earth, and the souls are those living after the cross. They are given white robes as opposed to the great multitude who have made their robes white in the blood of the lamb.

True. What covenant does the blood atonement appear under? The old covenant, not the new covenant.
Under what covenant is blood required for forgiveness?

Peace

###
What, then, is required for salvation now?

elohiym
August 7th, 2005, 09:16 PM
What, then, is required for salvation now?Grace of course. Just grace.

A covenant is a contract, as you know, and a contract has two parties. The first contract, between God and the children of Israel was that God would provide the righteousness and Israel would keep all the laws.

Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Under that first contract with God millions lived and died. They put their faith, so to speak, in a blood atonement sacrificial system which only pointed to the perfect sacrifice.

God had to remove one contract and establish and confirm a new contract because of his promise to Abraham. How could all nations be blessed under the curse of the law, right? So to complete the first contract, the perfect sacrifice clause was used, so to speak. And I say it that way because we can find symbols pointing to Jesus and the "sacrifice clause" within the first contract itself.

What was the second contract?

Hebrews 8:10-12 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

What does Jesus' blood represent in the new contract? Does the cup of his blood not represent the one spirit of God?

So where his literal blood fulfilled the old contract with Israel, in the new contract his blood is symbolic for the holy spirit we receive through the grace of God. It shouldn't surprise us that Jesus' blood becomes symbolic for higher spiritual truth, as the OT sacrifices were symbolic for Jesus' sacrifice. Can we really assert that his blood had magic cleansing power, as it was human blood in the likeness of sinful flesh?

Peace

###

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 08:55 AM
I'll try rephrasing it again.

Let's take it right back to Adam. Adam rebelled against God. The penalty due for this rebellion is death. God chose to be gracious and did not execute the sentence on Adam and Eve straight away.

It is in this sense that he overlooks the offence - he is deferring payment for want of a better phrase. The payment is still due - it is a debt owed by Adam and Eve. It is this debt that is passed on to us as well.

You are getting too hung up on one meaning of the word forgive.

God chooses to overlook the debt we owe. BUT, he can only overlook it for a limited time, there comes a point when we have to pay the debt we owe. It is at this point that God cannot choose to overlook the debt anymore, this point occurs when we die. However, God wanted us free of this debt and so He arranged for the debt to be paid through the blood of Christ, therefore Christ went to the cross and paid the debt that we owed. So now we have a situation where, IF we repent, Christ will take over the debt we owe and has arranged payment of it on the cross. If we do not repent then WE must pay the debt we owe when we die.

I hope this makes it a bit clearer for you Rimi. Where you say there is no forgiveness without repentance, I would say it would be more accurate to say there is no remission of sins without repentance.

T.

You are mistaken. They were barred from Eden and wonderful with God. The world became a harsh place for them to grow crops and eke out a living. Childbearing was made worse then He intended. Woman became subjected to the man, and not so much a helpmate anymore. And from dust they were made, to dust they would return. Sounds like death to me. They were never to touch the Tree of Life.

Semantics.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 08:57 AM
If God loved us while we were dead in our transgressions (Eph. 2:4,5), and love covers all sins (Pr. 10:12), then God forgave our sins BEFORE Jesus dies on the cross, as seen in Christ's ministry before his death (Lk. 5:20; 7:48).

Peace

###

Wrong. He loved while we were sinners, yes. But He did not forgive without repentence.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Now I feel that when someone committs an offense against us our Christian duty is to 'forgive' them unconditionally. But what I mean by this is that first sense of the word forgive - the not holding the offense against them. We can not fulfill the second stage of forgiveness until they repent - when they repent then we have the obligation to clear their account as it were.

I hope that this makes a bit clearer what I'm saying?


There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.

Zakath
August 8th, 2005, 09:02 AM
There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.
The same thing might be said about his "love", since, according to the bible, he will damn the alleged object of his love to eternal torment if they do not repent... :think:

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 09:03 AM
Like I said before, I have basically thought that we should forgive with or without the person coming to you in repentance, but I am open to changing my thinking on this question. When you don't forgive someone, is it just a mental thing for you? Or do you actually "rebuke" and ignore them. What does the unforgiving entail?


There are guidelines for those who are of the Body of Christ in one of Paul's letters on how to treat someone who continues to act is if not saved: treat them as an unbeliever.

If not of the Body, yes avoiding would be fine. Let God avenge.

lovemeorhateme
August 8th, 2005, 09:14 AM
LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:

:rotfl:

Delmar
August 8th, 2005, 09:39 AM
LMOHM ......It's even too long when abbreviated. :sozo2:
I say we just call him hate.

lovemeorhateme
August 8th, 2005, 09:42 AM
I say we just call him hate.

Why?

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 09:55 AM
Wrong. He loved while we were sinners, yes. But He did not forgive without repentence.Unfortunately Rimi, it is you that are wrong. Love covers all sins, as the Bible teaches. God's love covered our sins while we were dead in them. He did forgive without repentance, or he would not have covered our sins, and he would not have sent his son to die for them. You seem to be missing that grace is evidence of forgiveness.

Did you also miss the fact the Jesus forgave several people in the Bible BEFORE the cross without them confessing any sin or repenting as you seem to be interpreting the word? Are you just going to ignore that paradox, or the paradox' I have pointed out?

A person repents from unbelief, Rimi. Repentance is NOT when a person says he's sorry to God because he sinned a specific sinful act and he's not going to do it again. Do you undertstand that?

Peace

###

Clete
August 8th, 2005, 10:00 AM
Hi.

I am starting this thread at the suggestion of Rimi. My question is, what are the conditions of my forgiving other people? Here are the two scriptures I would like to cite:

So watch yourselves. 'If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him.' Luke 17:3 NIV

So, that would seem to imply that someone has to repent before I should forgive them. But, when I look somewhere else in the New Testament, I get a bit confused!

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matthew 6: 14-15 NIV

So, is repentance a condition of forgiveness? Or, is it the case that if I don't forgive someone, regardless or whether or not they have repented, the Lord will not forgive my sins?

Pete

Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Truppenzwei
August 8th, 2005, 10:07 AM
You are mistaken. They were barred from Eden and wonderful with God. The world became a harsh place for them to grow crops and eke out a living. Childbearing was made worse then He intended. Woman became subjected to the man, and not so much a helpmate anymore. And from dust they were made, to dust they would return. Sounds like death to me. They were never to touch the Tree of Life.

Semantics.
It is not semantics Rimi. It is about understanding something fully as opposed to having a simplistic view of it.

I am 'alive', I was 'alive' before I became a Christian and I am 'alive' now. At some future point I will 'die' and go to spend an eternal 'life' with God.

You obviously believe that anyone who is not a Christian is dead - which is just wrong.

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 10:26 AM
There is no such thing as unconditional forgiveness with God. There a condition that must be met: repentence.


Rimi,

Does God only forgive the sin you repent of? Is it possible that there is sin in your life that you aren't even aware of and therefore have not repented of?

God forgives all of our sin. We stand before him with the perfect righteousness of Christ.
How does that fit with your assertion that we are only forgiven for sin we confess?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Unfortunately Rimi, it is you that are wrong. Love covers all sins, as the Bible teaches. God's love covered our sins while we were dead in them. He did forgive without repentance, or he would not have covered our sins, and he would not have sent his son to die for them. You seem to be missing that grace is evidence of forgiveness.

Did you also miss the fact the Jesus forgave several people in the Bible BEFORE the cross without them confessing any sin or repenting as you seem to be interpreting the word? Are you just going to ignore that paradox, or the paradox' I have pointed out?

A person repents from unbelief, Rimi. Repentance is NOT when a person says he's sorry to God because he sinned a specific sinful act and he's not going to do it again. Do you undertstand that?

Peace

###

If God's love alone was enough, then Jesus would not have had to die. I can't understand why you don't get this simple point.

As for those Jesus forgave, it was possible that He did so because he could see repentence in the person before Him. Take the two thieves: one ridiculed Him, one asked Him to remember Him. Were they bother forgiven? If so, why didn't Jesus address Himself to the ridiculing thief as well? A person repents from unbelief and a life of filth and sin before a Holy God. Do you understand that?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 11:50 AM
It is not semantics Rimi. It is about understanding something fully as opposed to having a simplistic view of it.

I am 'alive', I was 'alive' before I became a Christian and I am 'alive' now. At some future point I will 'die' and go to spend an eternal 'life' with God.

You obviously believe that anyone who is not a Christian is dead - which is just wrong.

John 3:18 says they're condemned already. That means not in the Book of Life. So, yes, before asking Christ into our lives we were dead in sin.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 11:51 AM
Rimi,

Does God only forgive the sin you repent of? Is it possible that there is sin in your life that you aren't even aware of and therefore have not repented of?

God forgives all of our sin. We stand before him with the perfect righteousness of Christ.
How does that fit with your assertion that we are only forgiven for sin we confess?


In my personal case? No. I asked God for forgive me those I couldn't call to mind and those I didn't know about. So, I have no idea what assertion you think I'm making here, HL.

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 12:26 PM
Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
CleteCare to back that up with any scripture, Clete? Jesus forgave me before I repented, and I can prove that with the Bible. Can you prove that Jesus forgave you after you repented and not before, using the Bible?

###

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 01:32 PM
If God's love alone was enough, then Jesus would not have had to die. I can't understand why you don't get this simple point.It may be a simple point, brother; but it is simply a faulty point. Jesus had to die, and his blood had to be placed upon the mercy seat to fulfill the law. Under the curse of the law, there is no forgiveness without blood.

WE are under GRACE, not under the law. The significance of Jesus' blood under grace is not identical to its significance under the law. The author of Hebrews puts it this way...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

From that we can see the purpose of the blood is 1) "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, and 2) that "they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" under the new testament.

The redemption of the transgressions under the law had to be accomplished to fulfill the law, and to fulfill the new covenant.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How can the promise that "all nations be blessed" be fulfilled under the curse of the law. If the world is under a curse, it surely cannot be under a blessing?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So he redeemed us from the curse of the law, and did that with his blood of atonement. And with "one offering he perfected for ever them that are sanctified." That's why he had to die.

You and I were not born under the law, Rimi. The New Testament was written by men that had lived under both covenants with God, and so their writing reflects that. I was not born under a curse, but grace. I was never under the law, because that covenant was finished on the cross, and that was approximately 2000 years ago.


As for those Jesus forgave, it was possible that He did so because he could see repentence in the person before Him. Take the two thieves: one ridiculed Him, one asked Him to remember Him. Were they bother forgiven? If so, why didn't Jesus address Himself to the ridiculing thief as well?Why does it matter which one was forgiven? The paradox is that he is forgiving anyone before his blood has been spilled upon the mercy seat. That is a paradox, if there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That doesn't make you stop and think? :think:


A person repents from unbelief and a life of filth and sin before a Holy God. Do you understand that?A person repents from unbelief, period. Your carnal mind has never been subject to God's law, and it never can be. The only thing that covers your present filth is the righteousness of God. Believe it.

Peace

###

Clete
August 8th, 2005, 01:47 PM
Care to back that up with any scripture, Clete? Jesus forgave me before I repented, and I can prove that with the Bible. Can you prove that Jesus forgave you after you repented and not before, using the Bible?

###
Umm, hello? Did you read the openning post? I guess not. :nono:

defcon
August 8th, 2005, 01:53 PM
elohiym- if we are not under law but under grace - and have never been under law, then what will the unsaved be judged by? Will every person be saved?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 01:58 PM
elohiym wrote:


It may be a simple point, brother; but it is simply a faulty point. Jesus had to die, and his blood had to be placed upon the mercy seat to fulfill the law. Under the curse of the law, there is no forgiveness without blood.

Right.


WE are under GRACE, not under the law. The significance of Jesus' blood under grace is not identical to its significance under the law. The author of Hebrews puts it this way...

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

From that we can see the purpose of the blood is 1) "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, and 2) that "they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance" under the new testament.

The redemption of the transgressions under the law had to be accomplished to fulfill the law, and to fulfill the new covenant.

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

How can the promise that "all nations be blessed" be fulfilled under the curse of the law. If the world is under a curse, it surely cannot be under a blessing?

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

So he redeemed us from the curse of the law, and did that with his blood of atonement. And with "one offering he perfected for ever them that are sanctified." That's why he had to die.

You and I were under the Law until we repented. Period. Had we not repented, by what standard would God judge us at the White Throne?


You and I were not born under the law, Rimi. The New Testament was written by men that had lived under both covenants with God, and so their writing reflects that. I was not born under a curse, but grace. I was never under the law, because that covenant was finished on the cross, and that was approximately 2000 years ago.

All are under the Law until they receive the Grace of Jesus Christ. See my above answer.


Why does it matter which one was forgiven? The paradox is that he is forgiving anyone before his blood has been spilled upon the mercy seat. That is a paradox, if there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. That doesn't make you stop and think? :think:

Uh, Abraham was a man who was accounted as God's friend. And yet scholars do not consider him to have been with God until such time as a way could be found: Christ's atoning death.


A person repents from unbelief, period. Your carnal mind has never been subject to God's law, and it never can be. The only thing that covers your present filth is the righteousness of God. Believe it.

Like Paul, I wouldn't have known how bad I was until I saw the Law. You fail to understand that one day there will be an accounting for those who rejected Christ. And they will be judged NOT just for rejecting Christ. No. Per John 3:18, they are judged for that already, and per Rev 20:1-6 they have no part of the 1000 yr reign. No. In rejecting Christ, they chose to pay the price themselves. And so what are we told: "And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened, which is the book of Life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Rev 20:12

Question again: By what standard will God judge these people?

Clete
August 8th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Did Jesus forgive you before or after you repented and believed?

AFTER!

Don't be nicer than God! It really won't get you anywhere, I promise.

Resting in Him,
Clete
I think that I should rephrase this post as follows....


WILL Jesus forgive you before repent and believe?

NO! He most certainly will not!


Romans 1: 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2: 1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


Resting in Him,
Clete

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Umm, hello? Did you read the openning post? I guess not. :nono:So all you can offer is two scriptures to support your contention that you were forgiven AFTER you repented, not before. :rolleyes:

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3

That first verse deals with men, not God; and, the verses do not even imply what happens to someone that is not sorry because they aren't aware they have done wrong.

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That verse would seem to add yet another condition to salvation, the way it has been used on this thread. Now we must repent, and forgive others, BEFORE we receive grace?

Why not interpret that verse through the parable that Jesus told, which demonstrates his words in action? Here is the parable from Matthew 18:

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In order for you to be correct, the part of the parable where, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all" must equate to repentance. Otherwise, the king (God) would be forgiving him without repentance (v. 27).

I reject Matthew 18:26 equating to repentance, because it is a blatantly self-righteous statement--"I will pay thee all." Did you pay him all? I surely didn't pay a cent. The wicked servant in the story never repented--as evidenced by the treatment of his brother--even though he was already forgiven.

Peace

###

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:22 PM
Clete, there's got to be a way to good rep here Paul for writing this.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:24 PM
So all you can offer is two scriptures to support your contention that you were forgiven AFTER you repented, not before. :rolleyes:

Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. Luke 17:3

That first verse deals with men, not God; and, the verses do not even imply what happens to someone that is not sorry because they aren't aware they have done wrong.

Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

That verse would seem to add yet another condition to salvation, the way it has been used on this thread. Now we must repent, and forgive others, BEFORE we receive grace?

Why not interpret that verse through the parable that Jesus told, which demonstrates his words in action? Here is the parable from Matthew 18:

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

In order for you to be correct, the part of the parable where, "The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all" must equate to repentance. Otherwise, the king (God) would be forgiving him without repentance (v. 27).

I reject Matthew 18:26 equating to repentance, because it is a blatantly self-righteous statement--"I will pay thee all." Did you pay him all? I surely didn't pay a cent. The wicked servant in the story never repented--as evidenced by the treatment of his brother--even though he was already forgiven.

Peace

###

This is a perfect example of how to repent/forgive. You are having to hang on one word "all".

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Clete,

Did you notice this part?

"...knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance."

Unless you are arguing that his goodness in NOT inclusive of his forgiveness, you are making my point for me. Thanks!

Gods forgiveness does lead you to repentance. First comes the forgiveness, then comes the repentance.

Peace

###

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Clete,

Did you notice this part?

"...knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance."

Unless you are arguing that his goodness in NOT inclusive of his forgiveness, you are making my point for me. Thanks!

Gods forgiveness does lead you to repentance. First comes the forgiveness, then comes the repentance.

Peace

###

Yes, God's goodness gave us a means. But that doesn't automatically mean we're forgiven. If that were so, EVERYbody would be forgiven. And we know this simply is not and will not be the case. See Rev 20.

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:31 PM
This is a perfect example of how to repent/forgive. You are having to hang on one word "all".Good grief, Rimi! Have you been reading the thread? I'm not hanging on one word.

Are you seriously going to assert that the wicked servant was actually repentant, then forgiven, and then he lost his salvation??? :confused:

Peace

###

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:32 PM
See Rev 20.Specifically what?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:33 PM
Elohiym, you're saying the wicked servant was forgiven in any case because of God's goodness. Aren't YOU reading this thread, particularly what you wrongly assert?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Rev 20:12

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First, those would have to be the wicked, mainly because I am in Christ, and Paul states I will be judging, not being judged.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Second, the wicked being judged according to their works are being judged according to their works of unbelief. They have all rejected God's forgiveness, and his holy spirit, just like the wicked servant.

Peace

###

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 02:52 PM
In my personal case? No. I asked God for forgive me those I couldn't call to mind and those I didn't know about. So, I have no idea what assertion you think I'm making here, HL.


My assertion here is that as fallen human beings we are not fully aware of the sin in our lives. We are foolish to presume that it is possible to always have our sin fully confessed before the Father. Yet God has justified us through the work of Christ on the cross. We stand fully justified before God as Christians. Can unconfessed sin damage our relationship with Him? Yes, but it is our heart that causes the problem, not whether or not we have gone through the exercise of confessing that sin.

I think that there is an attitude that I read in this thread that there is a formula for forgivness. Something like the offender must repent and then we are obligated to forgive, otherwise no forgiveness is necessary.

I think that all too often we look for things to be formulaic, when God isn't looking for formulas but rather to the heart of the person.

The problem with saying that the other person has to repent first is that God knows whether the heart of a Christian is ready to forgive should the offender ask for repentance. God knows whether or not we are truly desirous of reconciliation with the other party.

I think that sometimes withholding forgiveness is entirely within God's will. I think that other times God challenges us to forgive the offending party. I believe that this really is a matter that is best left to God's leading in a particular situation.

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Elohiym, you're saying the wicked servant was forgiven in any case because of God's goodness.What else can be said, Rimi?

To claim that the wicked servant repented before his debt was forgiven would force the rest of the parable to be interpreted as we can lose our salvation even after we have repented of sin. I totally reject that.

Peace

###

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 02:59 PM
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

First, those would have to be the wicked, mainly because I am in Christ, and Paul states I will be judging, not being judged.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Second, the wicked being judged according to their works are being judged according to their works of unbelief. They have all rejected God's forgiveness, and his holy spirit, just like the wicked servant.

Peace

###

Jesus said they were judged already in John 3:18, so I have no clue what you're saying here.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 03:10 PM
HisLight wrote:


My assertion here is that as fallen human beings we are not fully aware of the sin in our lives. We are foolish to presume that it is possible to always have our sin fully confessed before the Father. Yet God has justified us through the work of Christ on the cross. We stand fully justified before God as Christians. Can unconfessed sin damage our relationship with Him? Yes, but it is our heart that causes the problem, not whether or not we have gone through the exercise of confessing that sin.

Yes, THRU CHRIST. And then only because His sacrifice of Himself. But some here are saying that we were forgiven even if we don't repent and that is a mockery of Christ's work on the cross.


I think that there is an attitude that I read in this thread that there is a formula for forgivness. Something like the offender must repent and then we are obligated to forgive, otherwise no forgiveness is necessary.

Yes. Even Jesse Ventura figured this out. He'd insulted some religious group and was asked by the media if he intended to apologize. He answered: No, they have to forgive me anyway. So, all these "oh, you have to forgive no matter what" Christians have taught this man that he need to nothing because he'll be forgiven anyway. This is simply not what God shows us in His word.


I think that all too often we look for things to be formulaic, when God isn't looking for formulas but rather to the heart of the person.

Sure, He can see the heart of the person. Like, He can see if someone is truly repentent. But He does look for that or He cannor and will not do anything in the way of forgiveness for them.


The problem with saying that the other person has to repent first is that God knows whether the heart of a Christian is ready to forgive should the offender ask for repentance. God knows whether or not we are truly desirous of reconciliation with the other party.

God is very clear on the part of the offended party: if someone repents, then we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. If we do not, then we are not being perfect as God is perfect.


I think that sometimes withholding forgiveness is entirely within God's will. I think that other times God challenges us to forgive the offending party. I believe that this really is a matter that is best left to God's leading in a particular situation.

Agree to a point. God's forgiveness is entirely within His will -- He can choose to forgive or not depending on the repentence of the person before Him. Agree that sometimes we are challenged to forgive when there's a repentent person before us -- no one said it would be easy. With discernment given us by God, we can determine if someone is just mouthing off the words they think we want to hear. If we determine they are lying, then we're under no obligation to act a fool and forgive.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 03:11 PM
What else can be said, Rimi?

To claim that the wicked servant repented before his debt was forgiven would force the rest of the parable to be interpreted as we can lose our salvation even after we have repented of sin. I totally reject that.

Peace

###

Well, let's see. The wicked servant repented . . . and yet didn't forgive as he was forgiven. So, perhaps he was just mouthing the words and not sorry at all but afraid only of the consequences.

kmoney
August 8th, 2005, 03:21 PM
There are guidelines for those who are of the Body of Christ in one of Paul's letters on how to treat someone who continues to act is if not saved: treat them as an unbeliever.

If not of the Body, yes avoiding would be fine. Let God avenge.
Do you ask God for forgiveness everytime you sin?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Do you ask God for forgiveness everytime you sin?


Relevance to this discussion? Point?

kmoney
August 8th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Relevance to this discussion? Point?
When you were saved and God forgave you, do you believe it was for every sin you have committed and ever will commit? Or do you think that if you sin tomorrow you will have to ask for forgiveness?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 03:41 PM
When you were saved and God forgave you, do you believe it was for every sin you have committed and ever will commit? Or do you think that if you sin tomorrow you will have to ask for forgiveness?

I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 03:41 PM
HisLight wrote:


Yes, THRU CHRIST. And then only because His sacrifice of Himself. But some here are saying that we were forgiven even if we don't repent and that is a mockery of Christ's work on the cross.

I agree that God forgives us all sin, even sin that has not been confessed. To say otherwise is to understate the amount of sin in our lives.



Yes. Even Jesse Ventura figured this out. He'd insulted some religious group and was asked by the media if he intended to apologize. He answered: No, they have to forgive me anyway. So, all these "oh, you have to forgive no matter what" Christians have taught this man that he need to nothing because he'll be forgiven anyway. This is simply not what God shows us in His word.

I agree that God gives us discernment about when and how to forgive. Clearly there is no reconciliation with an offender if he is not sorry for his offense.



Sure, He can see the heart of the person. Like, He can see if someone is truly repentent. But He does look for that or He cannor and will not do anything in the way of forgiveness for them.

God is very clear on the part of the offended party: if someone repents, then we are to forgive as we have been forgiven. If we do not, then we are not being perfect as God is perfect.

I agree that in order to be be justified before God we have to repent of our sin and trust only in Christs work on the cross. But as a Christian, I am aware that I cannot fully understand the extent of my sin or the offense it causes. I am sure that there is sin in my life that I am simply not ready to see, yet God doesn't hold that against me.


Agree to a point. God's forgiveness is entirely within His will -- He can choose to forgive or not depending on the repentence of the person before Him. Agree that sometimes we are challenged to forgive when there's a repentent person before us -- no one said it would be easy. With discernment given us by God, we can determine if someone is just mouthing off the words they think we want to hear. If we determine they are lying, then we're under no obligation to act a fool and forgive.

I used to agree with you on forgiveness. Last year God challenged me to forgive someone who is very difficult. This person is not likely to repent of her actions any time soon. She has yet to admit that she is even responsible. I have always made it a point to let her know when she crosses the boundaries, but they have never been a productive conversations. I used to get so angry because her offenses caused someone I care for a lot of pain. Yet I have no authority to change the situation.

The only one being harmed by my not forgiving her was me. I still draw the boundaries, I still let her know that there are consequences for crossing the boundaries, I manage her behavior to the extent I am able. She still has lots of room for game playing that I cannot control. I could focus on the offense and hold it over her head. Instead I see her for the person God showed me she is. I pray for her instead.

I do not believe that God calls us to take either attitude about forgiveness all of the time. Sometimes we should wait for a sincere confession, sometimes we should forgive unilaterally.

BTW - before you say that my situation makes me a doormat, I have to tell you that she has far less room to play games with me now because she knows that she no longer has the power to make me angry.

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 03:53 PM
I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?

I totally agree.

I just ask you to be open to the possibility that God may challenge you, in some circumstances, to forgive for your own sake before the other party repents. That doesn't mean that there is reconciliation, because without that repentance the relationship cannot be reconciled. The freedom for the Christian is not having to carry around the burden of the offenses that you are waiting on repentance for. There is a testimony in that that is clearly from God. You don't have to be a doormat.

kmoney
August 8th, 2005, 04:02 PM
I do believe that I was forgiven one time for all time once I repented. I believe Jesus did it all on the cross in that one moment, just waiting for my repentence to open the door, so to speak. However, I do find when I sin that I ask forgiveness. I don't need to, God's already forgiven me. But I think it's more for me, that I want to let Him know that I don't take it for granted. Make sense?
yeah, and that's how I feel also....I was just curious as to what you think based on you thinking we shouldn't forgive unless the person repents. I wanted to see if you thought that translated into us needing to repent for sins Christians commit after being saved.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 04:07 PM
HisLight wrote:


I agree that God forgives us all sin, even sin that has not been confessed. To say otherwise is to understate the amount of sin in our lives.

It'd be impossible to recall every sin, praise God.



I agree that God gives us discernment about when and how to forgive. Clearly there is no reconciliation with an offender if he is not sorry for his offense.

Agreed. Didn't always. I thought and had been taught that I had to forgive no matter what, but God doesn't say that.



I agree that in order to be be justified before God we have to repent of our sin and trust only in Christs work on the cross. But as a Christian, I am aware that I cannot fully understand the extent of my sin or the offense it causes. I am sure that there is sin in my life that I am simply not ready to see, yet God doesn't hold that against me.

Totally agree.



I used to agree with you on forgiveness. Last year God challenged me to forgive someone who is very difficult. This person is not likely to repent of her actions any time soon. She has yet to admit that she is even responsible. I have always made it a point to let her know when she crosses the boundaries, but they have never been a productive conversations. I used to get so angry because her offenses caused someone I care for a lot of pain. Yet I have no authority to change the situation.

Funny, I used to agree with you. I don't know if it was God challenging you or not. I think you've got it in your head to forgive no matter what like most Christians. It's OK to have a righteous anger -- she's hurting someone for no valid reason. You can change it to a degree -- avoid her, cut her off. I take it you've confronted her? Well, boundaries are boundaries. Just to be clear: are her sins against you or this other person. If they're not against you, you have no authority to forgive her anyway, technically.


The only one being harmed by my not forgiving her was me. I still draw the boundaries, I still let her know that there are consequences for crossing the boundaries, I manage her behavior to the extent I am able. She still has lots of room for game playing that I cannot control. I could focus on the offense and hold it over her head. Instead I see her for the person God showed me she is. I pray for her instead.

Here's where you and I part ways. I too have had to deal with people who've hurt me beyond measure. What I finally figured out is it wasn't not forgiving them that hurt. It was the fact that they didn't think they needed to apologize for all the hurt. THAT's what hurt. And what freed me is Luke 17:3. With that, I could turn it all over to God. Sure, I can still pray for certain people, but I leave them to God for my peace. He is my peace, not whether I forgive.


I do not believe that God calls us to take either attitude about forgiveness all of the time. Sometimes we should wait for a sincere confession, sometimes we should forgive unilaterally.

Unless I can see a changed person, someone really in the throes of trying to change their lives or undo what they've done, or a simple thing as work up the courage to set aside pride and to say "I'm sorry" I do not let them off the hook. If they've done something wrong and won't admit it, I give it to God. I trust Him to deal with them. And I cut them from my life. I will not allow them to treat me that way. No anger, no rancor. Just cut.


BTW - before you say that my situation makes me a doormat, I have to tell you that she has far less room to play games with me now because she knows that she no longer has the power to make me angry.

No, I wasn't going to say that because I don't know what you're having to deal with. But you'd find greater strength in God's work, turning it over to Him completely, than trying to forgive her. I bet if you really asked yourself this, you'd admit you've had to "repeat forgive" -- even tho she's never asked for it. I figured out why I was having to do this: because I'd not truly forgiven. I truly believe it's a lie to forgive when they're not repentent, because then we run to got saying, "Well, I forgave them and they're still treating me this way! How can you ask this of me!" But He doesn't ask this of us, HL. He doesn't even ask it of Himself. Peace.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 04:10 PM
I totally agree.

I just ask you to be open to the possibility that God may challenge you, in some circumstances, to forgive for your own sake before the other party repents. That doesn't mean that there is reconciliation, because without that repentance the relationship cannot be reconciled. The freedom for the Christian is not having to carry around the burden of the offenses that you are waiting on repentance for. There is a testimony in that that is clearly from God. You don't have to be a doormat.


I'm being very serious when I say God gave me great freedom when I understood Luke 17:3. Truly free. Free to move on. Free to forgive if someone who has hurt me does finally see what they've done -- sorrow even for them because they have to live with how they behaved. Free to trust God. This is freedom in Christ. I am not waiting for anyone or anything except God's promises fulfilled. Not a doormat at all.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 04:12 PM
yeah, and that's how I feel also....I was just curious as to what you think based on you thinking we shouldn't forgive unless the person repents. I wanted to see if you thought that translated into us needing to repent for sins Christians commit after being saved.


I cannot even BEGIN to tell you what a hurdle this was for me, coming from a RC background. But His word seems pretty clear even if not at all what I'd grown up believing.

kmoney
August 8th, 2005, 04:15 PM
I cannot even BEGIN to tell you what a hurdle this was for me, coming from a RC background. But His word seems pretty clear even if not at all what I'd grown up believing.
I'm glad you are now living in the freedom Christ provided, no longer seeking forgiveness that is already given. Awesome....

Truppenzwei
August 8th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Right Rimi,

I'm going to try one last time to explain this and if you still choose to ignore what I say and instead misrepresent my position then that is your choice.

1. You are using too narrow a definition for the word forgive. I have explained a couple of times how the word means various different things.

2. I am NOT saying that our sins are remitted before we repented, rather I have gone to great pains to point out that they are not.

3. What I am saying is that God has chosen to overlook our offenses for a time, to not hold them against us for the moment. This was necessary in order for Him to be able to send Christ to the cross.

4. Christ's work on the cross is what enabled us to be able to have our sins remitted by repenting.

5. Christ's teaching on forgiveness IS that we are to choose to overlook offenses freely. It is not that we are to remit the offense, this is something that can only be done once the offender repents.

6. If the offender has repented and we remit his offense then we are very clearly NOT supposed to keep a record of the offense, to keep score and say "look, I know you are repenting of this, but you've already done that umpteen times...."

I am not, repeat not saying that Christ's work on the cross was useless. No, it was totally necessary in order for our sins to be removed from us. However what I AM saying is that God chose to overlook our offense for enough time for Christ to do the work.

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 04:34 PM
HisLight wrote:

It'd be impossible to recall every sin, praise God.

AMEN!!!




Funny, I used to agree with you. I don't know if it was God challenging you or not. I think you've got it in your head to forgive no matter what like most Christians. It's OK to have a righteous anger -- she's hurting someone for no valid reason. You can change it to a degree -- avoid her, cut her off. I take it you've confronted her? Well, boundaries are boundaries. Just to be clear: are her sins against you or this other person. If they're not against you, you have no authority to forgive her anyway, technically.

Here's where you and I part ways. I too have had to deal with people who've hurt me beyond measure. What I finally figured out is it wasn't not forgiving them that hurt. It was the fact that they didn't think they needed to apologize for all the hurt. THAT's what hurt. And what freed me is Luke 17:3. With that, I could turn it all over to God. Sure, I can still pray for certain people, but I leave them to God for my peace. He is my peace, not whether I forgive.

Unless I can see a changed person, someone really in the throes of trying to change their lives or undo what they've done, or a simple thing as work up the courage to set aside pride and to say "I'm sorry" I do not let them off the hook. If they've done something wrong and won't admit it, I give it to God. I trust Him to deal with them. And I cut them from my life. I will not allow them to treat me that way. No anger, no rancor. Just cut.

No, I wasn't going to say that because I don't know what you're having to deal with. But you'd find greater strength in God's work, turning it over to Him completely, than trying to forgive her. I bet if you really asked yourself this, you'd admit you've had to "repeat forgive" -- even tho she's never asked for it. I figured out why I was having to do this: because I'd not truly forgiven. I truly believe it's a lie to forgive when they're not repentent, because then we run to got saying, "Well, I forgave them and they're still treating me this way! How can you ask this of me!" But He doesn't ask this of us, HL. He doesn't even ask it of Himself. Peace.

This person is part of my step-daughter. She has at various times done things that hurt my child with the intent of offending me. These things happened at a time that while they were not against me directly it was clearly done with that intent. My child was far too young to even understand the offenses in the beginning.

I cannot cut her out of my life, that is up to my husband. I draw boundaries for her and I let her choose what happens. She knows that when she crosses the line that there will be consequences with me, that is more than anyone else seems capable of.

Your last question is interesting... No I have not had to forgive her repeatedly. I let her know that she is responsible for her actions whether she accepts it or not. I let her know that the consequences of the actions are on her as well.

Your comment about giving her over to God is exactly how I look at this situation. Only God can heal her wounds and until she repents and recognizes that she needs Him, the situation isn't likely to get better. I have quit expecting her to change and so I am not disappointed or offended when she doesn't.

I cannot recall ever unilaterally forgiving anyone before. I don't know how to explain to you how I know that God challenged me to do this.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Right Rimi,

I'm going to try one last time to explain this and if you still choose to ignore what I say and instead misrepresent my position then that is your choice.

1. You are using too narrow a definition for the word forgive. I have explained a couple of times how the word means various different things.

2. I am NOT saying that our sins are remitted before we repented, rather I have gone to great pains to point out that they are not.

3. What I am saying is that God has chosen to overlook our offenses for a time, to not hold them against us for the moment. This was necessary in order for Him to be able to send Christ to the cross.

4. Christ's work on the cross is what enabled us to be able to have our sins remitted by repenting.

5. Christ's teaching on forgiveness IS that we are to choose to overlook offenses freely. It is not that we are to remit the offense, this is something that can only be done once the offender repents.

6. If the offender has repented and we remit his offense then we are very clearly NOT supposed to keep a record of the offense, to keep score and say "look, I know you are repenting of this, but you've already done that umpteen times...."

I am not, repeat not saying that Christ's work on the cross was useless. No, it was totally necessary in order for our sins to be removed from us. However what I AM saying is that God chose to overlook our offense for enough time for Christ to do the work.


One can only hope you keep your word. For the last time (hopefully) God did NOT overlook our offenses for long enough time for Christ to do the work or THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR HIS WORK ON THE CROSS.

:bang:

Agape4Robin
August 8th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:

Delmar
August 8th, 2005, 05:04 PM
Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:
Sort of but not really. Repentance does not make you worthy of forgiveness, but it is necessary.

elohiym
August 8th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Well, let's see. The wicked servant repented . . . and yet didn't forgive as he was forgiven. So, perhaps he was just mouthing the words and not sorry at all but afraid only of the consequences.Then he didn't really repent, even by your standards. Thus, God forgave without repentance first.

Truppenzwei
August 8th, 2005, 05:05 PM
One can only hope you keep your word. For the last time (hopefully) God did NOT overlook our offenses for long enough time for Christ to do the work or THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR HIS WORK ON THE CROSS.

:bang:
Well Rimi, I can only pray that God softens your unforgiving heart and give thanks that God is more forgiving than you give Him credit for.

:bang:

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 05:14 PM
HisLight wrote:


AMEN!!!

Ain't that the truth. It would crush us completely, wouldn't it.


This person is part of my step-daughter. She has at various times done things that hurt my child with the intent of offending me. These things happened at a time that while they were not against me directly it was clearly done with that intent. My child was far too young to even understand the offenses in the beginning.

I cannot cut her out of my life, that is up to my husband. I draw boundaries for her and I let her choose what happens. She knows that when she crosses the line that there will be consequences with me, that is more than anyone else seems capable of.

Your last question is interesting... No I have not had to forgive her repeatedly. I let her know that she is responsible for her actions whether she accepts it or not. I let her know that the consequences of the actions are on her as well.

First let me say that I'm truly sad that you have to deal with such a person and that it hurts someone so young and impressionable. What a tightrope you're walking, and I wouldn't wish it even on Buttboi. Sad that you can't cut her out, but I understand that situation as well. She has made your life miserable and likely will continue to do so. There is nothing to be done about that, but to trust God. That, and stick to your guns as far as boundaries and even making them tighter if she tests you. You got the first part of Luke 17:3 right, you confronted. But she was not humble and walking before God so you're part is done. Just keep in mind: a day may come where she does repent, and THAT will be the true test of obedience to God. Can we forgive when confronted with repentence. Don't be so sure! It's natural to want to say, "Well, you should be sorry..." and, "You're saying this NOW!!! . . . " and other things instead of the simple gracious statement of a heartfelt, "I forgive you, really." It's a hard thing indeed. Just a heads up for you if you ever come to that.



Your comment about giving her over to God is exactly how I look at this situation. Only God can heal her wounds and until she repents and recognizes that she needs Him, the situation isn't likely to get better. I have quit expecting her to change and so I am not disappointed or offended when she doesn't.

And it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But let me point out that you made my point: you have quit expecting her to change . . . . well, then what's the point of forgiving? Forgiveness is a clean slate right? Well, if someone isn't changing, there can be no clean slate.


I cannot recall ever unilaterally forgiving anyone before. I don't know how to explain to you how I know that God challenged me to do this.

What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God. But we can take it one apology at a time. That's tough enough. But what I have really struggled with is the part about 70x7 times. Does Christ mean that for the same sin? Like, say you're run over with a car and the guy begs you to forgive him. Fine, you accept and forgive. Then a week later, he runs you down again, and again begs you to forgive him. . . . do you keep forgiving for the same sin? Is there a point where discernment comes in and you say, "Gee I think this dude's trying to kill me and really isn't sorry because I lived and he got caught!" I have to deal with a situation like this, went on for 20 years (and to think some here think I'm rash!). Finally, I decided I would cut ties. Had to send a message: put up or shut up. Haven't heard from that person since 2000. Gee, if they were so sorry all those times, why was it such a repeat offense and why can't they own up to it being the cause of the rift? I need to struggle thru this.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Isn't forgiveness given wether one deserves it or not? :think:


We're more discussing when it's appropriate to forgive, with or without repentence. Do we deserve God's forgiveness even if we repent? Probably not. But He gives it if and only if we repent.

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Then he didn't really repent, even by your standards. Thus, God forgave without repentance first.


I think I said "maybe".

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 05:21 PM
Well Rimi, I can only pray that God softens your unforgiving heart and give thanks that God is more forgiving than you give Him credit for.

:bang:


God IS more forgiving than either of us give Him credit for. Just that I give Him credit for being logical in His manner and you don't. According to you, God goes around forgiving willy nilly and no one has to lift a finger.

Truppenzwei
August 8th, 2005, 05:22 PM
God IS more forgiving than either of us give Him credit for. Just that I give Him credit for being logical in His manner and you don't. According to you, God goes around forgiving willy nilly and no one has to lift a finger.
wrong that is not what I said at all.

:bang:

HisLight
August 8th, 2005, 05:30 PM
HisLight wrote:

First let me say that I'm truly sad that you have to deal with such a person and that it hurts someone so young and impressionable. What a tightrope you're walking, and I wouldn't wish it even on Buttboi. Sad that you can't cut her out, but I understand that situation as well. She has made your life miserable and likely will continue to do so. There is nothing to be done about that, but to trust God. That, and stick to your guns as far as boundaries and even making them tighter if she tests you. You got the first part of Luke 17:3 right, you confronted. But she was not humble and walking before God so you're part is done. Just keep in mind: a day may come where she does repent, and THAT will be the true test of obedience to God. Can we forgive when confronted with repentence. Don't be so sure! It's natural to want to say, "Well, you should be sorry..." and, "You're saying this NOW!!! . . . " and other things instead of the simple gracious statement of a heartfelt, "I forgive you, really." It's a hard thing indeed. Just a heads up for you if you ever come to that.

And it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. But let me point out that you made my point: you have quit expecting her to change . . . . well, then what's the point of forgiving? Forgiveness is a clean slate right? Well, if someone isn't changing, there can be no clean slate.

What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God. But we can take it one apology at a time. That's tough enough. But what I have really struggled with is the part about 70x7 times. Does Christ mean that for the same sin? Like, say you're run over with a car and the guy begs you to forgive him. Fine, you accept and forgive. Then a week later, he runs you down again, and again begs you to forgive him. . . . do you keep forgiving for the same sin? Is there a point where discernment comes in and you say, "Gee I think this dude's trying to kill me and really isn't sorry because I lived and he got caught!" I have to deal with a situation like this, went on for 20 years (and to think some here think I'm rash!). Finally, I decided I would cut ties. Had to send a message: put up or shut up. Haven't heard from that person since 2000. Gee, if they were so sorry all those times, why was it such a repeat offense and why can't they own up to it being the cause of the rift? I need to struggle thru this.

Rimi,

Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, that is how I know this thing is from God. She has problems only God can solve. I am at peace with that. Her behavior is not my problem, I don't get angry or disappointed about it any more. While she behaves like a child she is an adult.

I appreciate your warning about being ready to forgive, because at the time this challenge came to me I was not ready. In fact, I doubted that it was even possible for me to ever be ready. It didn't happen over night, but God did change my heart toward her completely.

Forgiveness is about a clean slate. I don't hold prior offenses against her. I don't mention them, I don't think about them except in the context of these kinds of conversations.

I do take her tendency to be irresponsible into consideration when I set boundaries for her though. It isn't as if those actions are forgotten. I think that speaks to the situation you mentioned.

I don't have a problem with cutting people off when God leads. Sometimes it is necessary, as when Paul advised for someone to be given over to the devil so that they could come to repentance.

My point here is that I think both solutions to the forgiveness issue are within God's will. I think that unilateral forgiveness is a rare thing. I cannot recall any other time that God has challenged me to do that, but I am certain that He does.

Agape4Robin
August 8th, 2005, 05:34 PM
We're more discussing when it's appropriate to forgive, with or without repentence. Do we deserve God's forgiveness even if we repent? Probably not. But He gives it if and only if we repent.
I'm intrigued by this discussion.....so let me ask.....

As born again believers.......are we forgiven even if we don't ask? What if it's a "minor" offense and it is forgotten by us? Do you think that it puts our salvation in jeopardy?

Rimi
August 8th, 2005, 05:38 PM
HisLight wrote:


Thank you for your kind words. Honestly, that is how I know this thing is from God. She has problems only God can solve. I am at peace with that. Her behavior is not my problem, I don't get angry or disappointed about it any more. While she behaves like a child she is an adult.

Yikes! I don't for a minute think this is from God. God doesn't want us to have misery in our lives. This is something we can do all by ourselves. We don't need any help from Him. But, yeah, only God can help her.


I appreciate your warning about being ready to forgive, because at the time this challenge came to me I was not ready. In fact, I doubted that it was even possible for me to ever be ready. It didn't happen over night, but God did change my heart toward her completely.

Then she has a clean slate?


Forgiveness is about a clean slate. I don't hold prior offenses against her. I don't mention them, I don't think about them except in the context of these kinds of conversations.

If she's pulling the same crap (which appears to be using the child) then it appears that you have to repeat clean the slate. Guess I don't have enough info, and not trying to pry. Just going by what I'm getting here.


I do take her tendency to be irresponsible into consideration when I set boundaries for her though. It isn't as if those actions are forgotten. I think that speaks to the situation you mentioned.

Well, we've not been commanded to forget have we? But forgive if there's repentence.


I don't have a problem with cutting people off when God leads. Sometimes it is necessary, as when Paul advised for someone to be given over to the devil so that they could come to repentance.

Yep. It's tough. But let me tell you. . . so very freeing! RCers thrive on being "martyrs", and just living with pain and guilt. Why? This isn't what God wants unless you have a real reason for that!


My point here is that I think both solutions to the forgiveness issue are within God's will. I think that unilateral forgiveness is a rare thing. I cannot recall any other time that God has challenged me to do that, but I am certain that He does.

You say you've forgiven her and that must be the case. I take your word for it. But you're not doing her any favors. I'm not saying you have to confront each and every time (unless it's clear and present affect on child). Well, we agree to disagree. I was free when applying Luke 17:3, and you were challenged otherwise. Let God figure it out.

temple2006
August 9th, 2005, 10:55 AM
Rimi.......What do you mean by unilaterally? You mean for every mean thing someone's done to you? I don't think it works that way, we're not God.

We are not God....Very true....But consider, we are his representatives and we are to reflect his divine nature. Erring is human, forgiving is divine. Do not think that my forgiving removes any consequences to the perp's actions but it does absolve me from being the dispenser of consequences and that is hugely liberating for me.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 11:04 AM
Temple, yes forgiving is divine. . . with repentence it's really divine. That is God's nature to forgive with repentence. Does it all the time in the Bible and that's the only we way we get forgiven in Christ. We're not talking about dispensing consequences, but we are talking about forgiving as God does. Were you forgiven before you repented, assuming you're Christian?

HisLight
August 9th, 2005, 12:28 PM
HisLight wrote:
Yikes! I don't for a minute think this is from God. God doesn't want us to have misery in our lives. This is something we can do all by ourselves. We don't need any help from Him. But, yeah, only God can help her.


Her behavior isn't from God.

My ability to forgive her and be at peace about my relationship with her such as it is, that is from God.

Yes, she has a clean slate with me as much as I am able to do that. That doesn't mean I don't manage our relationship or that I am not guarding her ability to hurt my child. It does mean that I don't spend time being angry about what she has done in the past.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 01:07 PM
Her behavior isn't from God.

My ability to forgive her and be at peace about my relationship with her such as it is, that is from God.

Yes, she has a clean slate with me as much as I am able to do that. That doesn't mean I don't manage our relationship or that I am not guarding her ability to hurt my child. It does mean that I don't spend time being angry about what she has done in the past.


You had said something like this was something God wanted you to go thru. I was just pointing out that God probably would rather no one go thru anything like this. He doesn't sit there masterminding every thing that happens.

". . . as much as I am able to to that" .. . . Then you're not 100%.

temple2006
August 9th, 2005, 01:24 PM
Rimi.......Please discuss what is the difference between divine and really divine. Can I safely say that you do not believe in unconditional love?

Truppenzwei
August 9th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Temple, yes forgiving is divine. . . with repentence it's really divine. That is God's nature to forgive with repentence. Does it all the time in the Bible and that's the only we way we get forgiven in Christ. We're not talking about dispensing consequences, but we are talking about forgiving as God does. Were you forgiven before you repented, assuming you're Christian?
Depends how sadly narrow a view you take of what forgiveness means.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Rimi.......Please discuss what is the difference between divine and really divine. Can I safely say that you do not believe in unconditional love?


Correct. If I am murdered, I don't love my murderer. Much like the saints in Rev 6 asking for revenge from God on those who killed them. Much like God in Lev 26:30.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Depends how sadly narrow a view you take of what forgiveness means.


As "narrow" as God.

Truppenzwei
August 9th, 2005, 04:12 PM
As "narrow" as God.
nope, you're WAAYYY narrower than God mate.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 04:15 PM
Truppenzwei, you need to read those verses I just mentioned. Really.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 04:17 PM
I don't know why, but it always amazes me to find Christian don't know that God can hate and even not forgive (Sodom, anyone? Gomorrah?). And when you show them verses of this in action, they nearly froth at the mouth. Having always been told God's love is unconditional and then seeing in His word that that's not necessaryily the case, they just don't deal with His reality too well.

Truppenzwei
August 9th, 2005, 04:29 PM
Truppenzwei, you need to read those verses I just mentioned. Really.
Dude, I've read them, Leviticus is my favourite book. You need to read my posts and understand the distinction I made.

It always amazes me that people can read the Bible and yet still not know God.

God's love for mankind IS unconditional - read the Bible, it will tell you that this is true. The fact that God loves us does NOT mean that we do not have to face the consequences of our sin. God will take no joy in any soul that goes to hell.

temple2006
August 9th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Rimi.....Please answer my question. What is the difference between divine and REALLY divine? And I did not ask if you believe God is unconditional love...I asked if you believe that unconditional love exists.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 09:25 PM
Dude, I've read them, Leviticus is my favourite book. You need to read my posts and understand the distinction I made.

It always amazes me that people can read the Bible and yet still not know God.

God's love for mankind IS unconditional - read the Bible, it will tell you that this is true. The fact that God loves us does NOT mean that we do not have to face the consequences of our sin. God will take no joy in any soul that goes to hell.


Then you're calling God a liar when He said His soul would abhor the Israelites. That doesn't sound like unconditional love.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Rimi.....Please answer my question. What is the difference between divine and REALLY divine? And I did not ask if you believe God is unconditional love...I asked if you believe that unconditional love exists.


Temple, I was being facetious. Yes forgiving is like God, but it is not like God when we don't see a repentent person first before forgiving. All we do is teach that person, Hey, you hurt me and I have to forgive you and you can keep on being the hurtful snot you've always been! Jesse Ventura learned that lesson from Christians. And you know what? He'll probably go to hell not JUST because He rejected Christ but certain Christians helped to hell in bad teaching on repentence and forgiveness.

Rimi
August 9th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Temple, no I do not believe there is such a thing as unconditional love in every single relationship. Between God the Father and God the Son, sure.