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chance
August 3rd, 2005, 09:37 PM
Just taking a sort of poll among us Mid-Acts or Grace Believers.

Where do you BEGIN when explaining the Mid-Acts position to someone that does not know about it? What verse or passage do you point to first? And why?

Turbo
August 3rd, 2005, 09:42 PM
I think Luke 9 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=700605) is a good hook.

Vaquero45
August 3rd, 2005, 11:22 PM
Where do you BEGIN when explaining the Mid-Acts position to someone that does not know about it? What verse or passage do you point to first? And why?
Good topic. I'm pretty new to dispensational teaching, only learned it for myself in the last year. It was a huge eye opener for me. I haven't tried to teach/explain it much, but so far, I usually end up pointing out differences between Paul's and the twelve's teachings. Circumcision, baptism, following the law, works... I tell people Paul meant exactly what he wrote, and so did James, Peter, and John. They conflict though. Why? When you learn the difference between the gospel of grace, and the gospel of the Kingdom, you don't have to "explain away" one or the other. I also remind them that the same Jesus who taught the twelve, taught Paul.

I would like to be much better at explaining it than I am. (need to read "The Plot" a few more times)

I do like Turbo's Luke 9 post.

Jeff

Nimrod
August 26th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Tell them that you believe the Jews were saved by faith plus works. And the church gets saved by faith.

When they hear this, they will think your nuts and will no longer listen to you worthless babble.

Nimrod
August 26th, 2005, 01:43 PM
(need to read "The Plot" a few more times)

Jeff

Yes the Bible is difficult, but THANK GOD we have Bob Enyart's "The Plot" to decode it for us. If it wasn't for Bob, we all be lost.

Turbo
August 26th, 2005, 02:06 PM
Tell them that you believe the Jews were saved by faith plus works. And the church gets saved by faith.
:thumb: Better yet, show them that this belief is biblical. For starters:

Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Exodus 20:12-16 (also Deuteronomy 5:16-20)

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17-18


What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17
Contrast with Paul's message to the Body of Christ:

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Romans 4:5

See also Battle Royale VIII (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451&highlight=battle+royale+viii).

Nimrod
August 26th, 2005, 03:09 PM
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17


See also Battle Royale VIII (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13451&highlight=battle+royale+viii).

Funny. I hear this same out of context James "faith without works is dead" crap from Catholics, JW, and Mormons. All false religions. Hmmmmmmm. Looks like you all can learn from each other.

Don't forget to tell your listeners that you believe King Solomon is in Hell.

Turbo
August 26th, 2005, 03:23 PM
Funny. I hear this same out of context James "faith without works is dead" crap from Catholics, JW, and Mormons.I've only heard them use the James passage to trump Paul's gospel. They'll say that "both are true" and try to blend the two messages, but in doing so they end up teaching that works are required for salvation every time.

Delmar
August 26th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Yes the Bible is difficult, but THANK GOD we have Bob Enyart's "The Plot" to decode it for us. If it wasn't for Bob, we all be lost.
I do thank God for good Bible teachers. Bob is one of them.

Vaquero45
August 26th, 2005, 03:39 PM
I've only heard them use the James passage to trump Paul's gospel. They'll say that "both are true" and try to blend the two messages, but in doing so they end up teaching that works are required for salvation every time.

I come from a church that tries to blend the two. They say you don't absolutely have to be baptised but a lot of verses say you should, so they say you should. Same goes for being "filled with the Holy Spirit". They don't really understand it, so they insist that "the gift of tongues" is for all believers, and STRONGLY encourage it. Also, they waffle on "losing your salvation". At the same time, they wouldn't be caught dead saying outright that works are required. It is really confusing.

The Bible is SO much easier to understand when you figure out the gospel of the Kingdom vs the gospel of grace.

Jeff

Lovejoy
August 26th, 2005, 03:42 PM
I've only heard them use the James passage to trump Paul's gospel. They'll say that "both are true" and try to blend the two messages, but in doing so they end up teaching that works are required for salvation every time.
Faith without works is dead, faith based on works puts you under the law, and therefore dead. What is so hard to understand? We are obviously dead. :dunce:

Adam
August 26th, 2005, 06:16 PM
I usually start by asking them how Noah got saved. That'll usually baffle them for awhile. While they blunder around trying to answer it, you can gather enough about where they are doctrinally and you'll know where to go next.

truthman

btw, Nimrod, you're just a bowl of peaches, aren't you?

Jerry Shugart
August 27th, 2005, 09:40 AM
:thumb: Better yet, show them that this belief is biblical. For starters:
Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life,[i] keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19
Turbo,

You left out the end of the conversation at Matthew 19.The apostles asked the Lord Jesus,"Who then can be saved?"

The Lord Jesus answered,saying,"With men this is impossible,but with God all things are possible"(Mt.19:26).

That is why Paul wrires that "Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone who believeth"(Ro.10:4).

Paul also shows that David,a man who lived under the law,was saved by faith apart from works:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"(Ro.4:6-8).

But that means nothing to those who teach that the Jews could not be saved without works.They say that the remnant out of Israel who believed could not be saved without works despite Paul's words to the contrary:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Jerry Shugart
August 27th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Just taking a sort of poll among us Mid-Acts or Grace Believers.

Where do you BEGIN when explaining the Mid-Acts position to someone that does not know about it? What verse or passage do you point to first? And why?
chance,

I would begin by explaining the meaning of exectly what a "dispensation" is.Then I would prove that the present dispensation (stewardship) that is given to believers today is to preach the "gospel of grace".We can do this by going to the verses where Paul uses the word "dispensation":

“If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you…”(Eph.3:2).

“Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God” (Col.1:25).

“…a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me” (1Cor.9:17).

The “dispensation” that was committed to Paul is in regard to “God’s grace”,a “ministry” and a “gospel”:

“…the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God” (Acts20:24).

That is the stewardship that is given for believers today,and the "gospel of grace" cannot be preached apart from the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross--that He died for our sins.

This "gospel" cannot be found being preached by the Twelve on the day of Pentecost.That gospel was not preached until Paul was converted and sent to the Gentiles.Therefore,it is impossible that the present dispensation began before Paul was converted.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Nimrod
August 28th, 2005, 08:21 AM
chance,

I would begin by explaining the meaning of exectly what a "dispensation" is.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/shugart-dispensationalism_made_easy.html

Hice to hear from you again Jerry. :MrCoffee:

What happens if you are already a dispensationalist but not a Mid-Acts one? How would they go about presenting you their beliefs that are easy to understand?

chance, if I were you I wouldn't 'beat around the bush'. It took me some time to get answers from 1Way about your position. Be honest and straightforward when they ask questions.

This is what you could say.

We believe, Jews who commit a presumptous sin go to hell no matter what, even if they asked for forgivenss. When they die, hell awaits. King David committed a presumptous sin but does not go to hell because David is a man after God's own heart.

Statements like these will make people clearly understand,.............. you have gone mad.

Turbo
August 28th, 2005, 09:47 AM
This is what you could say.

We believe, Jews who commit a presumptous sin go to hell no matter what, even if they asked for forgiveness. :troll:

kmoney
August 30th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Turbo,
Just a few thoughts on your one post...maybe you can help me out....

You give the verses Matt 19:16-19. In it Jesus says no one is good and to gain eternal life the man must obey the commandments. He then lists some. Are you saying that that man only had to obey those commandments? Jesus doesn't even list anything about not having other gods. He says nothing about faith, only those commandments.

And then when the man says he has obeyed them all Jesus says he must sell all of his possessions and follow Jesus. Are you saying that people had to do that for salvation?
If you are using that verse than I don't see how you can't. Those words came straight from Jesus' mouth.

My belief on that scripture was that Jesus knew the man was rich and that is why he said he must sell his possessions. The man seemingly had an issue with pride and boasted that he has kept those commandments all his life. Jesus knew the arrogance of the man and knew his wealthy status. Jesus then goes on tell the disciples that it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. That is clever because for the camel to get through the "eye of the needle" it would have to get on it's knees, which is a symbol for humility which is something rich men often lack and will never humble themselves before God.

You then go on to list scriptures in James. I don't think that you necessarily have to say that the only options are dispensational thinking or that salvation comes through works. James doesn't say salvation is dead without works. He says faith is dead without works. Works is merely a validation of your faith. I'll admit that is dangerously close to saying works is required, but I honestly think there is a difference.

just some thoughts.....

kevin

Timothy
September 4th, 2005, 01:11 PM
These two studies by Richard Jordan are excellent introductions to use:

The Key to Understanding the Bible
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/jordan-key_to_understanding_the_bible.html

Where We Fit In
http://gracebeacon.net/studies/jordan-where_we_fit_in.html