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Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 08:30 AM
Was Jesus describing the “big bang theory” of the expanding universe 2000 years ago in layman’s terms. I sounds like it to me. I’m not suggesting this to displace Genesis, Matt 13:35 says the info had been hidden, so God must not have told Moses about it, so he couldn’t have recorded it. What do you think?

Matthew 13:31-35

31He told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches."
33He told them still another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into a large amountB of flour until it worked all through the dough."
34Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. 35So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."C

Below taken from www.big-bang-theory.com

Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory.
Big Bang Theory - Common Misconceptions
There are many misconceptions surrounding the Big Bang theory. For example, we tend to imagine a giant explosion. Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe.

Zakath
July 29th, 2005, 08:33 AM
:think:

I think that's quite a stretch to apply the parable of the mustard seed to creation... (no pun intended).

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 08:41 AM
What in that section do you suggest had been hidden since creation, if not details about creation?

Zakath
July 29th, 2005, 09:11 AM
What in that section do you suggest had been hidden since creation, if not details about creation?
Hidden knowledge?

Well, how about the idea that Yeshua of Nazareth was the messiah, for starters? ;)

Of course there's always the idea that YHWH was going to require human sacrifice to atone for the sin of Adam...

Those kinds of things generally didn't sit well with the Jews... :nono:

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 09:29 AM
Where do you see that in Matthew 13???

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 09:35 AM
I guess you were talking about the parable of the sower, but Jesus never explained the mustard seed or bread and yeast.

37. He answered, "The person who sowed good seed is the Son of Man,
38. while the field is the world. The good seed are those who belong to the kingdom, while the weeds are those who belong to the evil one.
39. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
40. Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
41. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
42. and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!"

Zakath
July 29th, 2005, 09:39 AM
Where do you see that in Matthew 13???
I don't.

I was speaking in a broader sense of allegedly hidden truths that Jesus, his disciples, and Paul "revealed" to the world.

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 09:43 AM
I don't.

I was speaking in a broader sense of allegedly hidden truths that Jesus, his disciples, and Paul "revealed" to the world.

I didn't post a broad question.

OMEGA
July 29th, 2005, 10:02 AM
TruthHunter,

No Big Bang. Everything happened over 15 billion years.

If you study the Life Cycle of a Star, you will see that it first burns off

its Hydrogen and then its Helium and then it slowly compresses to a Carbonized

Crystalized IRON and Nickle Globe which eventually cools down into a PLANET.

So, Right now you are Living on an old Star called Earth.

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 10:09 AM
Did you read the original post? What question are you answering?

Zakath
July 29th, 2005, 10:16 AM
I didn't post a broad question.
You can't get much broader than the beginning of the entire universe... ;)

My answer was referring to a span across the broader sweep of Christian scripture rather than the single chapter in Matthew's gospel.

One Eyed Jack
July 29th, 2005, 10:21 AM
The Bible talks about the beginning in Genesis.

justchristian
July 29th, 2005, 10:21 AM
Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment. They have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that something came from nothing? The big bang teory is an effort to explain the existence of the universe using the observable fact that the universe is expanding and slowing from a point. The problem with this approach is it only puts off the question of beginning. How did this singularity appear from nothing (no time, no space, nothing, zilch, nadda).

To assume Jesus was talking about the Big Bang when he starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like" is a leap to begin with. Mabye you could draw a connection with the growth of a mustard seed and an expanding (or growing) universe. But that is clinging to straws. If you want to argue the Big Bang while remaining a Christian perhaps you could draw the parallel between the kingdom of heaven and the universe. If everything is a created expression of God then the creation of the universe expanding from a point could be the physical general revelation of the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven Jesus was talking about. I don't think Jesus was trying to explain the universe, he was explaining the lasting kingdom of heaven. If the universe draws a parallel nature due to the the fact it is a created expression that is at best a secondary truth in the parables.

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 10:35 AM
You can't get much broader than the beginning of the entire universe... ;)

My answer was referring to a span across the broader sweep of Christian scripture rather than the single chapter in Matthew's gospel.

Your answer is no answer, and I get the sense that your chatting for the sake of it. That's cool, but at least try to stay within the spirit of the question. I was relating the growing or expanding kingdom of heaven Jesus parabled to the expantion theory of the universe. The argument maybe a little week but I would rather you poke holes in it weakness than just post up arbitrary thoughts.

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 10:45 AM
They have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that something came from nothing? The big bang teory is an effort to explain the existence of the universe using the observable fact that the universe is expanding and slowing from a point. The problem with this approach is it only puts off the question of beginning. How did this singularity appear from nothing (no time, no space, nothing, zilch, nadda).

To assume Jesus was talking about the Big Bang when he starts off by saying "The kingdom of heaven is like" is a leap to begin with. Mabye you could draw a connection with the growth of a mustard seed and an expanding (or growing) universe. But that is clinging to straws. If you want to argue the Big Bang while remaining a Christian perhaps you could draw the parallel between the kingdom of heaven and the universe. If everything is a created expression of God then the creation of the universe expanding from a point could be the physical general revelation of the nature of the Kingdom of Heaven Jesus was talking about. I don't think Jesus was trying to explain the universe, he was explaining the lasting kingdom of heaven. If the universe draws a parallel nature due to the the fact it is a created expression that is at best a secondary truth in the parables.


Thank you for a good response. I know it's a thin argument, but for some reason the parallels have always stuck with me. I've never doubted the idea of dual meanings or even coincidence. I just wanted to see what others thought.

theo_victis
July 29th, 2005, 10:57 AM
Was Jesus describing the “big bang theory” of the expanding universe 2000 years ago in layman’s terms.

This is everything that is wrong with modern christianity. Have you been watching Jack Van Impe lately? You seem to be his clone, adding in your modern ideas to an ancient text in order to make it say what you want it to say. How about you look at the parable from the perspective that it is a parable? Highlighting or bolding certain english words in a verse then claiming that is what it may mean violates basic rules of interpretation. Context people, context!

Its an interesting thought, but its just a thought, there is no truth to what you have claimed because you invented it.

Justin (Wiccan)
July 29th, 2005, 11:04 AM
Was Jesus describing the “big bang theory” of the expanding universe 2000 years ago in layman’s terms. I sounds like it to me. I’m not suggesting this to displace Genesis, Matt 13:35 says the info had been hidden, so God must not have told Moses about it, so he couldn’t have recorded it. What do you think?

Greetings, Truth Hunter,

I think it's ... questionable at best. The problem with such an analysis is that it's eisegetic: eisegesis always looks reasonable, but it's fundamentally unprovable.

Zakath
July 29th, 2005, 11:07 AM
Your answer is no answer, and I get the sense that your chatting for the sake of it. That's cool, but at least try to stay within the spirit of the question. I was relating the growing or expanding kingdom of heaven Jesus parabled to the expantion theory of the universe. The argument maybe a little week but I would rather you poke holes in it weakness than just post up arbitrary thoughts.
:sigh:

There is nothing, either in the text you've cited, nor anywhere else in your scriptures to indicate that your particular point is a reasonable interpretation of the mustard seed parable...

As theo and Justin have both just said, you appear to be reading into the text a meaning that is not necessarily there. Particularly when taken in context with the rest of the teachings found in the gospels.

Is that more what you had in mind? :rolleyes:

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 11:09 AM
:sigh:

There is nothing, either in the text you've cited, nor anywhere else in your scriptures to indicate that your particular point is a reasonable interpretation of the mustard seed parable...

As theo and Justin have both just said, you appear to be reading into the text a meaning that is not necessarily there. Particularly when taken in context with the rest of the teachings found in the gospels.

Is that more what you had in mind? :rolleyes:

:thumb:

Turbo
July 29th, 2005, 11:16 AM
The parables are about the kingdom of heaven, not the natural universe.


Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” Matthew 13:31-32

The mustard seed represents the nation of Israel from which the kindgdom of heaven/God will be built.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" Matthew 10:5-7

Did Jesus mean that the creation of the universe was at hand? :nono:



Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33

This parable reiterates a point made in the previous one: that the kingdom/Israel was to eventually spread the Truth to the Gentile nations as well.


"I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.Isaiah 42:6-7

These parables have absolutely nothing to do with the "Big Bang" or Creation.

theo_victis
July 29th, 2005, 11:37 AM
I think it's ... questionable at best. The problem with such an analysis is that it's eisegetic: eisegesis always looks reasonable, but it's fundamentally unprovable.

Exactly.

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 11:42 AM
The parables are about the kingdom of heaven, not the natural universe.


Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field, which indeed is the least of all the seeds; but when it is grown it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and nest in its branches.” Matthew 13:31-32

The mustard seed represents the nation of Israel from which the kindgdom of heaven/God will be built.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: [jesus]"Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'" Matthew 10:5-7

Did Jesus mean that the creation of the universe was at hand? :nono:



Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.” Matthew 13:33

This parable reiterates a point made in the previous one: that the kingdom/Israel was to eventually spread the Truth to the Gentile nations as well.


"I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,
to open eyes that are blind,
to free captives from prison
and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.Isaiah 42:6-7

These parables have absolutely nothing to do with the "Big Bang" or Creation.

I concede to the truth. I hope I didn't mislead or confuse anyone, but if you can't talk about weak biblical ideas here where can you?

Justin (Wiccan)
July 29th, 2005, 11:48 AM
I concede to the truth. I hope I didn't mislead or confuse anyone, but if you can't talk about weak biblical ideas here where can you?

Weak Biblical ideas ... no problem. However, it might be less confusing if you say "I can see a parallel here," rather than "This is what it means."

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 11:54 AM
My bad.

Justin (Wiccan)
July 29th, 2005, 11:57 AM
My bad.

I wouldn't even say it was bad on your part. Heck, I'd darn well better not--you would not be the first person in this conversation to have seen a good eisegetical connection and said "Hey, this is so cool!" :chuckle:

theo_victis
July 29th, 2005, 12:14 PM
That was a quick thread. Usually someone holds on to there position no matter what, especially here.


I concede to the truth.

WOW! this has never been done here!

Turbo
July 29th, 2005, 02:41 PM
I concede to the truth. I hope I didn't mislead or confuse anyone, but if you can't talk about weak biblical ideas here where can you?
:up:

Turbo
July 29th, 2005, 02:42 PM
That was a quick thread. Usually someone holds on to there position no matter what, especially here.



WOW! this has never been done here!
It happens now and then. ;)

Truth Hunter
July 29th, 2005, 02:54 PM
That was a quick thread. Usually someone holds on to there position no matter what, especially here.



WOW! this has never been done here!

I'm true to my name. Sharing ideas is one thing, but holding onto a lie or a fallacy, after the truth has been revealled is worse than the original mistake.

Justin (Wiccan)
July 29th, 2005, 02:56 PM
I'm true to my name. Sharing ideas is one thing, but holding onto a lie or a fallacy, after the truth has been revealled is worse than the original mistake.

Drat! I can't plus-rep you again, and this post definitely deserves it!

theo_victis
July 29th, 2005, 06:56 PM
I'm true to my name. Sharing ideas is one thing, but holding onto a lie or a fallacy, after the truth has been revealled is worse than the original mistake.

I commend you for this. I totally agree with you!


Drat! I can't plus-rep you again, and this post definitely deserves it!

I ran into the same problem!