PDA

View Full Version : Same old story..



death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 09:16 AM
A friend of mine died yesterday. He was riding his motorcycle and was struck by a woman who ran a red light. The accident left him braindead and they promptly pulled the plug.

I'm trying so hard to understand why any of you out there would believe that God ordained that something like this would happen. My friend wasn't saved and his death will do nothing to bring others closer to God, if anything it has already pushed a few farther away.

I want answers from those predestined to understand.
These answers will not suffice:

-"You simply can't see/understand God's plan."
If God's plan involves damning one human to save another he is not God. Being, loving and just, God would have ordained a better way that doesn't involve so much destruction in the lives of the beings he claims to love. It makes sense that

-"These things happened to people in the past *quote bible verse here.*"
Quoting where someone else suffered doesn't make the reality of your god's childlike way of running the world any more real. To you God is a kid with a magnifying glass. This is unacceptable to me.
"The thought that providence would take a child away from his mother is appauling."

It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I await a reasonable response.


RIP
William Griffin.

Nineveh
July 27th, 2005, 09:32 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your loss, and his :(

defcon
July 27th, 2005, 09:32 AM
A friend of mine died yesterday. He was riding his motorcycle and was struck by a woman who ran a red light. The accident left him braindead and they promptly pulled the plug.

I'm trying so hard to understand why any of you out there would believe that God ordained that something like this would happen. My friend wasn't saved and his death will do nothing to bring others closer to God, if anything it has already pushed a few farther away.

I want answers from those predestined to understand.
These answers will not suffice:

-"You simply can't see/understand God's plan."
If God's plan involves damning one human to save another he is not God. Being, loving and just, God would have ordained a better way that doesn't involve so much destruction in the lives of the beings he claims to love. It makes sense that

-"These things happened to people in the past *quote bible verse here.*"
Quoting where someone else suffered doesn't make the reality of your god's childlike way of running the world any more real. To you God is a kid with a magnifying glass. This is unacceptable to me.
"The thought that providence would take a child away from his mother is appauling."

It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

I await a reasonable response.


RIP
William Griffin.I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

allsmiles
July 27th, 2005, 09:44 AM
I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

So if the bible doesn't make sense it's his fault because he's upset that his friend died?

Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 09:45 AM
I sympathize with your situation and your question (I recently went through a situation kind of like this). But is this really going to be an objective endeavor? I think that your situation will not allow any biblical reasoning or scripture that is presented to be viewed justly as shown from your post. I believe in predestination but to pretend that an answer can be provided that will make sense in your current circumstance is unreasonable. I will keep you in my prayers.

Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.

allsmiles
July 27th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.

Absolutely, but do not look for it to make sense. It doesn't, it's chaos, this happens all of the time, to everyone. Bad things happen to everyone, it's not fair, it's chaotic, there's no method in madness. If there is a god, I'm sure it's aware of what happened and was powerless to do anything about it.

I'm very sorry D2I.

ShadowMaid
July 27th, 2005, 09:56 AM
It's so sad that your friend died and was still unbelieving. :(

Granite
July 27th, 2005, 09:57 AM
My sympathy. I'm very sorry.

defcon
July 27th, 2005, 09:57 AM
So if the bible doesn't make sense it's his fault because he's upset that his friend died?

Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 09:59 AM
Absolutely, but do not look for it to make sense. It doesn't, it's chaos, this happens all of the time, to everyone. Bad things happen to everyone, it's not fair, it's chaotic, there's no method in madness. If there is a god, I'm sure it's aware of what happened and was powerless to do anything about it.

I think God chooses not to interact. I believe it is within His ability to.


I'm very sorry D2I.

Thank you, so am i :cry: .

Turbo
July 27th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Are you a robot? You sound like a robot...
He believes in exhaustive predestination, so he must effectively think he's a robot.

cattyfan
July 27th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Thats exactly the point though...I'm not looking for it to make sense in this context, I'm looking for it to make sense, period. How could our "patient" God end someone's life early with the knowledge that they'd go to hell. Why is patience even necessary if He has it all planned out? How can patience exist to a God that knows and destines every outcome? The only answer is that is doesn't and that we are responsible for our own actions. He is patient with us, not with himself.




This will be difficult for me to answer, and I'll probably say something that will set another member off, but I'll try to say something helpful for you.

First of all, I understand completely what you're going through. A good friend of mine died in April. He was 38 and suddenly had a heart attack...there was no warning; he was just gone. And as far as I know, he was not a believer. I read over some of the letters he had written to me over the years and God was a subject he struggled with. His family is atheist...very much the quintessential east coast liberal college types. It bothers me that I don't know where his heart or faith were at his passing...and we can't know how God will weigh his life.

I know we are saved by faith and without belief in Christ, we're lost...but I also pray God is merciful. The idea of my friend in Hell because of nonbelief literally gives me nightmares...especially when I start to think I could have done a better job of expressing my belief and how it has helped me. Instead, that opportunity is lost and I carry grief and guilt for it.

But, again, we cannot know what God will do. the Bible illustrates in a number of ways that God can and does change His mind and we know God is merciful, These are the things in which I find comfort. I will not know until I stand before our Lord whether or not I will see my friend again...until then I will continue to follow and love the God I know and pray for mercy...for me...for all I know...and for those who choose not to open their hearts.

God is the only judge and it would be blasphemous for me to presume to know what He will do.

I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe we are just chess pieces God plays with. He created us, and He listens to us...but He didn't decide to suddenly kill your friend. He certainly can change anything and everything, but I believe He leaves it to us in most cases.

We have the choice of what we do...that woman chose to drive recklessly and stupidly, and in doing so, she ended your friend's life. God knew it would happen, but He didn't cause it. And there is no way to know how God will weigh and judge your friend's life. There is also no way for you to know if somewhere, deep in your friend's heart, there was a spark of faith.

Your friend's death may seem senseless...and in truth, dying because of someone else's stupidity does appear unfair...but it may cause the woman to turn to God for comfort and forgiveness.

Meanwhile, don't let this test of your faith cause you to turn from God, because nothing you have learned of God's mercy and love has changed.

May you God's peace fill your heart and ease your grief.

:cattyfan:

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:13 AM
No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.

I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:16 AM
He believes in exhaustive predestination, so he must effectively think he's a robot.

I can always count on a laugh from someone.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:18 AM
This will be difficult for me to answer, and I'll probably say something that will set another member off, but I'll try to say something helpful for you.

First of all, I understand completely what you're going through. A good friend of mine dies in April. He was 38 and suddenly had a heart attack...there was no warning; he was just gone. And as far as I know, he was not a believer. I read over some of the letters he had written to me over the years and God was a subject he struggled with. His family is atheist...very much the quintessential east coast liberal college types. It bothers me that I don't know where his heart or faith were at his passing...and we can't know how God will weigh his life.

I know we are saved by faith and without belief in Christ, we're lost...but I also pray God is merciful. The idea of my friend in Hell because of nonbelief literally gives me nightmares...especially when I start to think I could have done a better job of expressing my belief and how it has helped me. Instead, that opportunity is lost and I carry grief and guilt for it.

But, again, we cannot know what God will do. the Bible illustrates in a number of ways that God can and does change His mind and we know God is merciful, These are the things in which I find comfort. I will not know until I stand before our Lord whether or not I will see my friend again...until then I will continue to follow and love the God I know and pray for mercy...for me...for all I know...and for those who choose not to open their hearts.

God is the only judge and it would be blasphemous for me to presume to know what He will do.

I don't believe in predestination and I don't believe we are just chess pieces God plays with. He created us, and He listens to us...but He didn't decide to suddenly kill your friend. He certainly can change anything and everything, but I believe He leaves it to us in most cases.

We have the choice of what we do...that woman chose to drive recklessly and stupidly, and in doing so, she ended your friend's life. God knew it would happen, but He didn't cause it. And there is no way to know how God will weigh and judge your friend's life. There is also no way for you to know if somewhere, deep in your friend's heart, there was a spark of faith.

Your friend's death may seem senseless...and in truth, dying because of someone else's stupidity does appear unfair...but it may cause the woman to turn to God for comfort and forgiveness.

Meanwhile, don't let this test of your faith cause you to turn from God, because nothing you have learned of God's mercy and love has changed.

May you God's peace fill your heart and ease your grief.

:cattyfan:


I don't blame God, nor am I angry at Him. I've had to deal with this enough to know that it's a part of life. Thanks for the kind words. I have hope that the "spark of faith" was seeded somewhere deep within him.

allsmiles
July 27th, 2005, 10:21 AM
D2I, this is the last thing I'll say on this thread.

It was a horrible tragedy, my heart goes out to you and your friend's family.

Leave god out of this, god had nothing to do with this.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:21 AM
It's so sad that your friend died and was still unbelieving. :(


Second one this year. :em:

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:22 AM
D2I, this is the last thing I'll say on this thread.

It was a horrible tragedy, my heart goes out to you and your friend's family.

Leave god out of this, god had nothing to do with this.

I agree.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 10:48 AM
I'd like a response. I enjoy healthy conversation and I'm hard to offend, even at a time like this.


Originally Posted by defcon
No, I'm not saying it's his fault, but predestination vs. free-will has been covered in many other threads. I understand that this is a very difficult situation and a lot of emotion and questions come up in these situations (I know because as I said - I went through something similar recently) but predestination vs. free-will is not an easy "one word or phrase" as other threads have shown. Apparently death2impiety has seen the case for predestination and doesn't see it as valid. I respectfully disagree (as I do with my friends and family members who believe in free-will), but I recognize that nothing will be resolved by discussing predestination under these circumstances. All I can do offer is my condolences and prayers.


I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

-Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by (or rather, that He exists within) or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.

defcon
July 27th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I'd like a response. I enjoy healthy conversation and I'm hard to offend, even at a time like this.




I appreciate your prayers. I do. But I can't see how they would make any difference to a god that has it all planned out. What's the point of living with no control? When I can't control yet must still account for and be responsible for my actions...If you believe it, explain why God kills my friends (at least one a year so far) all who are not saved, along with countless children in third world countries and babies who have yet to even be born. You present a God that wills evil for good or for whatever purpose he believes in..

Romans 3:8
and not, according as we are injuriously charged, and according as some affirm that we say, Let us practise evil things, that good ones may come? whose judgment is just.

-Does God hold us to the same righteous standard He abides by (or rather, that He exists within) or not?

I think the point of this thread is me venting that the world view you hold really frustrates me. Way more so than the ones held by any agnostic or athiest. You actually believe that God causes this torment, that He has willed it. It's disgusting.Ok, I'll go forward here without any expectations. I don't think that anyone is qualified to answer why God does what he does. Now, if we are talking about responsibility and whether God is responsible - here is an example. Suppose I am helping a man change a tire, the jack slips, the car falls on the man and he is wounded and trapped. If I stand there and do nothing and let the man die, won't I be held responsible? Of course. What about God in that situation? Not only does He see what happens but He knows the jack is not seated properly, how much the car weighs, how much time the man has to live when it falls, He has all the power to hold the jack up for a few minutes longer without lifting a finger, etc. How does He get off without being held ultimately responsible?

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 12:40 PM
Not only does He see what happens but He knows the jack is not seated properly, how much the car weighs, how much time the man has to live when it falls, He has all the power to hold the jack up for a few minutes longer without lifting a finger, etc.

Of course this is all true but does not imply that He ordained that all of it would happen. Whats more, His "seeing" of all this is extraneous when He has willed it all to be anyway.


How does He get off without being held ultimately responsible?

Because He isn't.

But you still didn't answer my question. Evil is not to be done so that good can come of it.

Basically it was:
-Does God abide by His own righteous standard?

I appreciate your posts. I'm just really trying to get at the heart of this idea. Its really on my mind right now...just trying to fathom why God would will such evil (and original sin to boot). I'm not seeking to understand why God would/did ordain such things because (simply because I don't believe it)...I'm trying to understand how a Christian could believe it.

defcon
July 27th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Of course this is all true but does not imply that He ordained that all of it would happen. Whats more, His "seeing" of all this is extraneous when He has willed it all to be anyway.



Because He isn't.Why?


But you still didn't answer my question. Evil is not to be done so that good can come of it.

Basically it was:
-Does God abide by His own righteous standard?

I appreciate your posts. I'm just really trying to get at the heart of this idea. Its really on my mind right now...just trying to fathom why God would will such evil (and original sin to boot). I'm not seeking to understand why God would/did ordain such things because (simply because I don't believe it)...I'm trying to understand how a Christian could believe it. We have the story of Lazarus where Jesus finds out that he is sick. What does Jesus do? Run and heal him? Speak the words to heal him? No. He let's him die. Now, that obviously isn't a good thing but then after Jesus shows up after Lazarus is buried - He raises him from the dead = Good thing.

I believe that God is in complete control. Otherwise, God is a Diestic God where He spun the world in motion and sits back and let's us do whatever. Another choice is that He is a helpless God because He has given us the ability to "choose" and He "chooses" not to or "can't" know the future. What then do we have hope in when He says that He works all things out for the good of those that love Him? I also believe God is sovereign and any attempt to take things out of His control are not supported in Scripture. There is a lot more of course to this but I think all you wanted was for me to provide why I believe what I believe. I understand the free-will perspective and don't claim that any who believe in free-will aren't Christians. For the majority of my life I believed that way too. But as I've searched for answers I've come to the conclusion that predestination is what the Bible teaches. Others believe differently, and I have family and friends who believe differently. I hope this helps you understand why a Christian can believe in predestination.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Why?

What is this referring to?


We have the story of Lazarus where Jesus finds out that he is sick. What does Jesus do? Run and heal him? Speak the words to heal him? No. He let's him die. Now, that obviously isn't a good thing but then after Jesus shows up after Lazarus is buried - He raises him from the dead = Good thing.

I believe that God is in complete control. Otherwise, God is a Diestic God where He spun the world in motion and sits back and let's us do whatever. Another choice is that He is a helpless God because He has given us the ability to "choose" and He "chooses" not to or "can't" know the future. What then do we have hope in when He says that He works all things out for the good of those that love Him? I also believe God is sovereign and any attempt to take things out of His control are not supported in Scripture. There is a lot more of course to this but I think all you wanted was for me to provide why I believe what I believe. I understand the free-will perspective and don't claim that any who believe in free-will aren't Christians. For the majority of my life I believed that way too. But as I've searched for answers I've come to the conclusion that predestination is what the Bible teaches. Others believe differently, and I have family and friends who believe differently. I hope this helps you understand why a Christian can believe in predestination.

It would be a really good thing if Jesus brought my friend back from the dead but it ain't gunna happen.
He is not helpless because He can intervene. It's up to us whether or not we accept His guidance, otherwise everyone would come to Him.

PureX
July 27th, 2005, 01:42 PM
I believe that God is far more forgiving than we are. I really don't think the fact that your friend was not a professing Christian has anything at all to do with his spiritual fate.

defcon
July 27th, 2005, 01:43 PM
What is this referring to? You stated that God wasn't responsible and was wondering why He isn't. It's not relevant though at this point. Don't worry about it.





He is not helpless because He can intervene. It's up to us whether or not we accept His guidance, otherwise everyone would come to Him.Of course, that's the difference in beliefs. Hope this discussion has helped in some way. :(

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 01:59 PM
I believe that God is far more forgiving than we are. I really don't think the fact that your friend was not a professing Christian has anything at all to do with his spiritual fate.

No way! :yawn:

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 02:00 PM
You stated that God wasn't responsible and was wondering why He isn't. It's not relevant though at this point. Don't worry about it.



Of course, that's the difference in beliefs. Hope this discussion has helped in some way. :(


Discussing things in general is always nice, so I suppose it has. I'm not surprised that people are staying away from this thread. Thanks for your time.

PureX
July 27th, 2005, 02:04 PM
It makes perfect sense that my friend's death is the result of his own actions and choices. I simply cannot attribute the mental anguish on his family and the elderly woman who killed him to "God's great plan." Surely if God choose to have control over every event in history, not one person would go to hell...It was just an accident. No one wanted to die, and no one wanted to kill. There is no "reason" for it other than that this is how existence works. Sooner or later we're all going to die. Unfortunately, for some of us that time comes sooner rather than later and for those who love us it's painful having to accept that loss.

death2impiety
July 27th, 2005, 02:07 PM
It was just an accident. No one wanted to die, and no one wanted to kill. There is no "reason" for it other than that this is how existence works. Sooner or later we're all going to die. Unfortunately, for some of us that time comes sooner rather than later and for those who love us it's painful having to accept that loss.


Indeed. I agree completely.