PDA

View Full Version : Does God know the future?



Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 10:08 AM
I've heard lots of different views on this subject, and I'd love to hear yours!
Here are some starting questions:

Does God know the future?

If He does, how FAR into the future?

There's plenty more, but those are some starters :D

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 10:22 AM
I've heard lots of different views on this subject, and I'd love to hear yours!
Here are some starting questions:

Does God know the future?

If He does, how FAR into the future?

There's plenty more, but those are some starters God has an overall plan for history. I.e., God knows how He wants to handle Satan and evil forces etc.

Yet God doesn't want to micro-manage reality.

God wants us to have a will of our own and therefore God has soverignly chosen to delegate some power to us in the form of a true freewill. God does not want to coerce our love through direct ordination or through exhaustive foreknowledge.

Therefore . . .
God knows everything knowable that He chooses to know. The future actions of freewill agents is by definition unknowable.

Instead, God orchestrates His overall macro plan by working with our wills as opposed to working our wills for us.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 10:35 AM
Knight,

You sound so sure of this! How do you know that's all true, and God doesn't just simply know everything?

I can understand where you're coming from, but doesn't ALL knowing mean ALL knowing?

And as for the free will issue, just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean that it's going to alter our decisions at all. For example, if I know that the apple you're about to eat has a worm in it, but I don't tell you, it's not going to alter your choice at all.

allsmiles
June 15th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Intro2faith,

Be careful when discussing how god sees our reality and how "he" experiences time. It's very easy for someone who claims their religion to have an exclusive right to the truth of god to speak as though they can see through his eyes. It's all inconclusive, none of it can be substantiated, christians speculate just as much as atheists do, it's all theoretical.

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Knight,

You sound so sure of this! How do you know that's all true, and God doesn't just simply know everything?If God knew the future exhaustively, every single prophecy, prediction and expectation He made would come to pass without fail. This is not the case.


I can understand where you're coming from, but doesn't ALL knowing mean ALL knowing?By definition the "unknowable" cannot be contained within the "knowable" therefore . . "all knowing" can only be understood to mean "all knowing of what is knowable".


And as for the free will issue, just because God knows what is going to happen doesn't mean that it's going to alter our decisions at all. For example, if I know that the apple you're about to eat has a worm in it, but I don't tell you, it's not going to alter your choice at all.Your example isn't analogous because you do not have exhastive perfect foreknowldge.

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:
If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.

In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.

Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 11:08 AM
Intro2faith,

Be careful when discussing how god sees our reality and how "he" experiences time. It's very easy for someone who claims their religion to have an exclusive right to the truth of god to speak as though they can see through his eyes. It's all inconclusive, none of it can be substantiated, christians speculate just as much as atheists do, it's all theoretical.God left us His word. It's called the Bible you should check it out sometime.

And since God left us His word we don't have to speculate. We can read about God's character and understand Him in a clear and logical way.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 11:18 AM
If God knew the future exhaustively, every single prophecy, prediction and expectation He made would come to pass without fail. This is not the case.
Please explain why this is not the case.


By definition the "unknowable" cannot be contained within the "knowable" therefore . . "all knowing" can only be understood to mean "all knowing of what is knowable".
God knows much more than what is knowable to man. What is not knowable to man is knowable to God.






Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

If God knew Billy was NOT going to take a bite out of the apple, then Billy wouldn't. If God knew Billy WAS going to take a bite out of the apple, then Billy would. It's Billy's choice. God just knows the ultimate choice that he is going to make. He doesn't persuade Billy to either take a bite, or not to take a bite.

allsmiles
June 15th, 2005, 11:20 AM
God left us His word. It's called the Bible you should check it out sometime.

And since God left us His word we don't have to speculate. We can read about God's character and understand Him in a clear and logical way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_text

Apparently god is a prolific author.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 11:45 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_text

Apparently god is a prolific author.

The Bible is Gods true word. Any other "holy book" is false.

allsmiles
June 15th, 2005, 11:47 AM
The Bible is Gods true word. Any other "holy book" is false.

Allegedly my friend, allegedly. There's no way to substantiate this claim, any evidence you may supply is secondary at best and therefore wholly inconclusive.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 12:03 PM
Allegedly my friend, allegedly. There's no way to substantiate this claim, any evidence you may supply is secondary at best and therefore wholly inconclusive.

Aha! :idea: But that is where faith comes in! You will not get any proof unless you have faith in the one true God :) Believing and having faith is a risk, but it's one worth taking! Believe in the one true God, and you'll have a MUCH clearer understanding..

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Please explain why this is not the case.Would you like me to give you an example?

God had Jonah tell Nineveh that in 40 days they would be overthrown. God wasn't lying! This was a very specific prediction, to the day! Yet Nineveh, repented and therefore God repented and did not do to Nineveh what He said He was going to do.

I can give you dozens of examples if you like but in reality one clear case is enough to prove the point.


God knows much more than what is knowable to man. What is not knowable to man is knowable to God.No disagreement there. :up:



If God knew Billy was NOT going to take a bite out of the apple, then Billy wouldn't. If God knew Billy WAS going to take a bite out of the apple, then Billy would. It's Billy's choice. God just knows the ultimate choice that he is going to make. He doesn't persuade Billy to either take a bite, or not to take a bite.LOL . . you trying to have your cake and eat it to!

Do you believe God has perfect exhaustive foreknowledge or not? If so, God knows exactly what Billy will do! Otherwise God doesn't have perfect exhaustive foreknowledge does He?

So, please try again and please be more faithful to the actual hypothetical . . .

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:
If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.

In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.

Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

allsmiles
June 15th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Aha! :idea: But that is where faith comes in! You will not get any proof unless you have faith in the one true God :) Believing and having faith is a risk, but it's one worth taking! Believe in the one true God, and you'll have a MUCH clearer understanding..

This is where your mind stops and cannot go any further :chuckle:

My understanding is exceptionally clear, I'm well aware of the state of my soul and the nature of the over god. I'm familiar with christianity and have found that it has nothing more to offer me than I have already attained. I guess what I'm most interested in is how far you're willing to think outside of the box. You refer to faith and risk, yet I wonder if you're willing to risk a nice critical look at religions such as Mithraism and Zoroastrianism?

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 12:06 PM
Allegedly my friend, allegedly. There's no way to substantiate this claim, any evidence you may supply is secondary at best and therefore wholly inconclusive.allsmiles please stay out of this thread. You are not on topic and are not adding anything to the discussion at hand. If you ignore my request I will ban you.

Deal?

allsmiles
June 15th, 2005, 12:07 PM
allsmiles please stay out of this thread. You are not on topic and are not adding anything to the discussion at hand. If you ignore my request I will ban you.

Deal?

All you had to do was ask Knight, you don't need to threaten me.

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 12:25 PM
All you had to do was ask Knight, you don't need to threaten me.OK, I have an itchy ban finger lately. :)

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 12:43 PM
Knight,

I'd really like to hear your response to my response about Billy's apple :D
That was kind of a funny sentence.:chuckle:

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Knight? Are you there? *cricket chirp*
;)

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Knight? Are you there? *cricket chirp*
;)I already responded, didn't you see it?

It's the last post on page #1 of this thread.

Thanks!

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Strike that . . . my response is post #12.

I forgot about the allsmiles destraction. :D

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Billy won't take a bite out of the apple. But it was his choice. God knew it. That's all. :)

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 01:38 PM
Billy won't take a bite out of the apple. But it was his choice. God knew it. That's all. :bang: Why are you so afraid to answer the hypothetical?

Come on now . . . I have been fair with you please be fair with me.

Please answer the question.

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:
If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.

In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.

Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

genuineoriginal
June 15th, 2005, 01:40 PM
God does not know the future. This is shown by what He said to Abraham.

Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God says that he knows Abraham's character (v. 19).
God says that he hears reports about the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah (v. 20)
God implies that he does not know if the reports are true, and says he is going in person to see for himself so he will know (v. 21)

God is able to declare what will happen in the future as shown in his words through Isaiah:

Isaiah 46:8Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. 9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God declares things will happen in the future (v. 10)
God will do what he pleases (v. 10)
God will bring to pass all he has spoken (v. 11)
God will do what he has purposed (v. 11)

From comparing these passages, it can be shown that God does not see the future, and make it immutable by seeing it, but that God is powerfull enough to make his prophecies come to pass despite anything else that may happen.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 01:53 PM
:bang: Why are you so afraid to answer the hypothetical?

Come on now . . . I have been fair with you please be fair with me.

Please answer the question.

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:
If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.

In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.

Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

I won't answer that question because the bottom line is, God wouldn't KNOW that Billy was going to take a bite out of it if Billy was not going to!

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 02:38 PM
I won't answer that question because the bottom line is, God wouldn't KNOW that Billy was going to take a bite out of it if Billy was not going to!:D

I realize the difficulty this hypothetical poses to your theology, therefore I realize why you will not answer the question.

At this point I would like to back track a bit to see if there any way we can salvage this thread.

YES or NO (you can explain the yes or no if you like). Does God know the future exhaustively and perfectly? Does God know RIGHT NOW whether or not there will be a boy named Billy born 1,000 years from now? Does He know whether or not Billy will pick up an apple at age 10 and take a bite out of it?

Does He know whether or not these things will come to pass? We certainly don't know if these events will come to pass but does God know RIGHT NOW perfectly and exhaustively whether or not these events will come to pass?

Knight
June 15th, 2005, 03:06 PM
I won't answer that question because the bottom line is, God wouldn't KNOW that Billy was going to take a bite out of it if Billy was not going to!P.S. Thanks for taking the time to discuss this issue - therefore I am giving you some positive rep!

Clete
June 15th, 2005, 03:09 PM
intro2faith,

It looks like you and Knight have got a pretty good start going on a terrific topic that seems to keep popping up around here lately. You guys are making some good progress and so I don't want to intrude but I thought that perhaps it would be helpful to define terms.
I know that Knight agrees, at least generally if not completely that to be free is defined as having the ability to do or to do otherwise and he is proceeding in his logic from this premise. Would you agree with this definition? If not, could you offer an alternative?

And there is one last thing I wanted to point out. It might seem like a pretty fine hair to split but it may become important later on.
You said...

God knows much more than what is knowable to man. What is not knowable to man is knowable to God.
Knight said that he had no argument with this and depending on what you mean by this, I may not either but if you mean by this that there is nothing unknowable to God then I do not agree and I don’t think Knight would either.
Speaking from a strictly logical perspective, something is either knowable or it is not. Just because I am unable to know something is not what makes something logically unknowable. Being unknowable means that it cannot be known at all; not by us or by God, or by anyone else. If anyone at all can know a thing then that thing is by definition knowable. So when we say that God does not know the unknowable we aren’t talking about stuff that is really difficult to figure out, we’re talking about stuff that CANNOT be figured out at all.

Resting in Him,
Clete

kmoney
June 15th, 2005, 05:38 PM
Knight,

First off I'll say that I believe and have always believed that God knows the past, present, and future. You are, however, certainly making me rethink my stance concerning this. :)

HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:
If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.
In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.
Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

No, if God has full knowledge of the infinite future and that knowledge is perfect then Billy can only act according to 1 set of events. The existence of everything in the universe can only follow one path, the path that God forsaw, but...
Does God ordaining that path follow from God knowing it? I'm not sure it does. Things may happen exactly as God forsaw, but I sitll don't think it follows that God ordained things to happen according to that knowledge.

A couple questions...

Rev. 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."....

The phrase "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...." -- I think this can be one of at least 2 ways, maybe you will have more....
I think it can be taken as the names were written in the book of life AT the foundation of the world OR
it is saying that those who didn't have their name written in the book of life at any time between the foundation of the world and now

how do you interpret that verse?

Sorry for butting in this conversation but wanted to throw a couple thoughts in and I wanted to answer your hypothetical situation that wasn't getting answered.

Kevin

kmoney
June 15th, 2005, 06:07 PM
This is a completely random and pretty much pointless post but this topic reminds me of the one scene in the The Matrix, the first and only good one.

The scene I'm reminded of is when Neo first meets with the oracle and she tells him not to worry about the vase, and he says "what vase" and turns as he says it and knocks a vase over and breaks it, then she says what will really get him thinking is if he would have broken it if she hadn't said anything....

anyway, I know it's not a great parallel but I thought of it....

Clete
June 15th, 2005, 08:14 PM
A couple questions...

Rev. 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."....

The phrase "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...." -- I think this can be one of at least 2 ways, maybe you will have more....
I think it can be taken as the names were written in the book of life AT the foundation of the world OR
it is saying that those who didn't have their name written in the book of life at any time between the foundation of the world and now

how do you interpret that verse?
I'm not Knight but if you're interested in what I think, I would say that the latter is the correct interpretation. It is the only one which would preserve the meaning of our lives, which is to love God. If we cannot choose, we cannot love.

Resting in Him,
Clete

kmoney
June 15th, 2005, 08:22 PM
I'm not Knight but if you're interested in what I think, I would say that the latter is the correct interpretation. It is the only one which would preserve the meaning of our lives, which is to love God. If we cannot choose, we cannot love.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,
sure I'm interested in your thoughts....

I figured that you and Knight and all the open theists would take the latter interpretation because it fits their open theology, but all I have to say is that I said before...

I don't think that our names being in the book of life from the foundation of the world means that we have no free will. I don't believe that God knowing the future means that God predestined the future.

Kevin

Clete
June 15th, 2005, 08:38 PM
This is a completely random and pretty much pointless post but this topic reminds me of the one scene in The Matrix, the first and only good one.

The scene I'm reminded of is when Neo first meets with the oracle and she tells him not to worry about the vase, and he says "what vase" and turns as he says it and knocks a vase over and breaks it, then she says what will really get him thinking is if he would have broken it if she hadn't said anything....

anyway, I know it's not a great parallel but I thought of it....

The Matrix is a brilliant movie. Easily the most philosophical movie ever made. There are parallels everywhere in that movie that can be applied to almost any philosophical question, including those we are considering here. The movie could almost be considered a Christian movie as far as I'm concerned. I find it as no small coincidence that they released the movie on Easter weekend.
If you're interested in things of that sort, there have been several books written specifically about The Matrix and the philosophical questions it raises.

The Philosophy of the Matrix by Christopher Gra (http://www.onwardoverland.com/matrix/philosophy.html) is a good one that is online.
And a former poster here on TOL named Jim Hilston wrote an interesting blog on the subject that's worth the read.The Matrix & Presuppositional Apologetics (http://www.tgfonline.org/TGF/topical/matrix.htm)
But probably the best work on the subject is The Matrix and Philosophy: Welcome to the Desert of the Real (Popular Culture and Philosophy, V. 3) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/081269502X?v=glance)

Resting in Him,
Clete

freelight
June 15th, 2005, 08:42 PM
HYPOTHETICAL NUMBER ONE:

If God knows (perfectly) that in 1,000 years a child will be born and that child will be named Billy. God knows that in 1,010 years Billy (Billy is 10 years old) will pick up a apple and take a bite out of it.
In this hypothetical God know's all these facts perfectly and exhaustively, currently. God knows all of this 1,010 years in advance.

Tell me . . . does Billy have the freedom to not pick up the apple and take a bite out of it?

No.

Any true freedom of will granted to conscious beings by divine Providence by institution modulates or limits the perfect omniscience of God. Perfect, exhaustive foreknowledge allows no room for true free will liberty.

This supports the beauty, wonder and eternal progress of an open-ended Universe......wherein Man and God coordinate their wills(hearts & souls) to engage in a never-ending creative journey of living within the Infinity of the LIFE that God IS.

God therefore envisions, wills, plans and purposes the desires of His Heart....and allows free will creatures the privilege/opportunity to share in these plans and dreams. God knows what He desires for the future experience of the whole of the Universe....yet these are always 'open' to endless possibilities within the parameters of free will contigencies. This is the beauty of our co-operation and partnership/marriage to the ONE, the All. This allows for novelty, creativity, variation and other enjoyments of spiritual evolution to be realized thru-out the Whole of Creation.

At last as shared already here....God can only know what is knowable...and cannot know what is unknowable. If some things are truly 'unknowable' then God is not truly omniscient by traditional definition. However, because God is OMNI (nothing that exists exists outside of the Totality that God IS - His divine Mind, Body, Spirit....He being the ONE, the All)...He can be said to be omniscient..in that his knowledge certainly encompasses an infinite vastness that human minds can barely contain or comprehend.

I tend to agree with Knights logix on certain points in this subject although mine are laced with other dimensional insights borrowed from other schools.


paul

Clete
June 15th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Clete,
sure I'm interested in your thoughts....

I figured that you and Knight and all the open theists would take the latter interpretation because it fits their open theology, but all I have to say is that I said before...

I don't think that our names being in the book of life from the foundation of the world means that we have no free will. I don't believe that God knowing the future means that God predestined the future.

Kevin
Well that's not what we are saying. God's foreknowledge does detroy freedom because it means that God predestined everything, it detroys freedom because it removes our ability to do or to do otherwise, which is the very definition of what means to have a free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

kmoney
June 15th, 2005, 09:02 PM
Well that's not what we are saying. God's foreknowledge does detroy freedom because it means that God predestined everything, it detroys freedom because it removes our ability to do or to do otherwise, which is the very definition of what means to have a free will.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete,
This is going to be a very loose parallel, but.....
have you read any Nietzchse? specifically his idea of Eternal Recurrence? In short this is what ER is....we have lived our lives an infinite number of times before this life and an infinite number of times after this life. As far as his stance on free will vs. determinism he is in the middle. He is against the notion of complete free will, but he is also against what he calls "unfree will", which is the opposite of free will.

Anyway, if ER is true than one way you could look at it is that you are programmed to follow a specific path in this lifetime and can do nothing else because you are living a life that has been lived before. therefore you have no free will. Nietzsche, however, doesn't follow this belief. He doesn't take all free will away. The fact that this life is just one link on an infinite chain of lives has no consequence when it comes to you making choices. I know that can be hard to understand and can seem quite contradictory, but I don't believe it is.

Now, for the belief that God exhaustively knows the future....
I brought up Nietzsche's concept of ER for this reason....If God knows the future than it is as if you have lived it before as God forsaw your life. Yes, there is only one way to live your life because if God knows the future and that knowledge is perfect than there is only one path you can take, but I don't think you can take that and jump to not having free will.

Like I said, that parallel is not very great, but I threw it in here.

Kevin

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 09:23 PM
intro2faith,

It looks like you and Knight have got a pretty good start going on a terrific topic that seems to keep popping up around here lately. You guys are making some good progress and so I don't want to intrude but I thought that perhaps it would be helpful to define terms.
I know that Knight agrees, at least generally if not completely that to be free is defined as having the ability to do or to do otherwise and he is proceeding in his logic from this premise. Would you agree with this definition? If not, could you offer an alternative?

And there is one last thing I wanted to point out. It might seem like a pretty fine hair to split but it may become important later on.
You said...

Knight said that he had no argument with this and depending on what you mean by this, I may not either but if you mean by this that there is nothing unknowable to God then I do not agree and I don’t think Knight would either.
Speaking from a strictly logical perspective, something is either knowable or it is not. Just because I am unable to know something is not what makes something logically unknowable. Being unknowable means that it cannot be known at all; not by us or by God, or by anyone else. If anyone at all can know a thing then that thing is by definition knowable. So when we say that God does not know the unknowable we aren’t talking about stuff that is really difficult to figure out, we’re talking about stuff that CANNOT be figured out at all.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well said :BRAVO: I just meant that God knows what man doesn't. That's all :D

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Clete,
This is going to be a very loose parallel, but.....
have you read any Nietzchse? specifically his idea of Eternal Recurrence? In short this is what ER is....we have lived our lives an infinite number of times before this life and an infinite number of times after this life. As far as his stance on free will vs. determinism he is in the middle. He is against the notion of complete free will, but he is also against what he calls "unfree will", which is the opposite of free will.

Anyway, if ER is true than one way you could look at it is that you are programmed to follow a specific path in this lifetime and can do nothing else because you are living a life that has been lived before. therefore you have no free will. Nietzsche, however, doesn't follow this belief. He doesn't take all free will away. The fact that this life is just one link on an infinite chain of lives has no consequence when it comes to you making choices. I know that can be hard to understand and can seem quite contradictory, but I don't believe it is.

Now, for the belief that God exhaustively knows the future....
I brought up Nietzsche's concept of ER for this reason....If God knows the future than it is as if you have lived it before as God forsaw your life. Yes, there is only one way to live your life because if God knows the future and that knowledge is perfect than there is only one path you can take, but I don't think you can take that and jump to not having free will.

Like I said, that parallel is not very great, but I threw it in here.

Kevin

Hey that's GOOD! :BRAVO:

nancy
June 15th, 2005, 09:45 PM
Aren't you guys simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination?

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 09:52 PM
Aren't you guys simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination?
Yep, I think that may be it! :BRAVO:

Foreknowledge:precognition: knowledge of an event before it occurs

predestination:previous determination as if by destiny or fate

YEP I think you found the problem Nancy! :D

kmoney
June 15th, 2005, 09:53 PM
Aren't you guys simply confusing foreknowledge with predestination?

nancy,

I already brought that up and Clete responded in post #34, check it out if you care.....

Kevin

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 09:57 PM
Well that's not what we are saying. God's foreknowledge does detroy freedom because it means that God predestined everything, it detroys freedom because it removes our ability to do or to do otherwise, which is the very definition of what means to have a free will.

How does Gods foreknowledge predestine anything? He didn't force us to make the choice. He just KNOWS the choice.

nancy
June 15th, 2005, 11:08 PM
kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.

intro2faith
June 15th, 2005, 11:18 PM
kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.
I agree 100% with that.

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 06:48 AM
You guys are missing the point.
Let me just simply ask a question that you guys need to respond to, okay?

Does having a free will mean having the ability to do or to do otherwise?

If your answer is "yes" then foreknowledge detroys freedom because people would have no ability to do other than that which is known by God.

If your answer is "no" then you need to offer a definition of free will that makes sense and allows for God's foreknowledge without contradiction.


I don't think anyone is equating foreknowledge with predestination except to say that both have the same effect on one's freedom to choose.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 06:56 AM
Clete,
This is going to be a very loose parallel, but.....
have you read any Nietzchse? specifically his idea of Eternal Recurrence? In short this is what ER is....we have lived our lives an infinite number of times before this life and an infinite number of times after this life. As far as his stance on free will vs. determinism he is in the middle. He is against the notion of complete free will, but he is also against what he calls "unfree will", which is the opposite of free will.

Anyway, if ER is true than one way you could look at it is that you are programmed to follow a specific path in this lifetime and can do nothing else because you are living a life that has been lived before. therefore you have no free will. Nietzsche, however, doesn't follow this belief. He doesn't take all free will away. The fact that this life is just one link on an infinite chain of lives has no consequence when it comes to you making choices. I know that can be hard to understand and can seem quite contradictory, but I don't believe it is.

Now, for the belief that God exhaustively knows the future....
I brought up Nietzsche's concept of ER for this reason....If God knows the future than it is as if you have lived it before as God forsaw your life. Yes, there is only one way to live your life because if God knows the future and that knowledge is perfect than there is only one path you can take, but I don't think you can take that and jump to not having free will.

Like I said, that parallel is not very great, but I threw it in here.

Kevin

I don't know really how to respond to this. I know almost nothing about Neitzsche except that if memory serves me correctly I think Hitler was a big Neitzche fan. I know that doesn't really prove anything but Hitler is not a guy I would want taking my side. Anyway, I could be wrong about that. Either way, I don't see how it's relevent. I mean people can have any nut job theory they want, how would you ever confirm even any part of such a theory? I don't see how this could ever be related to anything remotely Christian, that much is certain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 07:01 AM
Well said :BRAVO: I just meant that God knows what man doesn't. That's all :D
Okay, just to be perfectly clear. God knows a lot of things that man doesn't but there are some things that neither God nor man knows, right?

intro2faith
June 16th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Okay, just to be perfectly clear. God knows a lot of things that man doesn't but there are some things that neither God nor man knows, right?
Well, if God doesn't know them, then they can't be known, which would mean that they are nonexistant.

genuineoriginal
June 16th, 2005, 09:38 AM
Well, if God doesn't know them, then they can't be known, which would mean that they are nonexistant.
not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.

intro2faith
June 16th, 2005, 09:56 AM
not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.

Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 09:57 AM
not true

Look at these verses:
Genesis 18:17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him. 20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

God had to go down to see what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah in order to know.
Exactly!

God knows what He wants to know of that which is knowable.

intro2faith
June 16th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?

Clete(or anyone else) would you like to take a stab at my question? I'm really interested in what you have to say about it. :)

Knight
June 16th, 2005, 10:23 AM
:( I am going to have to catch up on this thread later.

I have become busy at work and some family stuff. Sorry!

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 10:27 AM
:( I am going to have to catch up on this thread later.

I have become busy at work and some family stuff. Sorry!
I hope I haven't stolen your thunder here, Knight. I sort of feel like I just jump in and took over. Sorry about that!

Knight
June 16th, 2005, 10:34 AM
I hope I haven't stolen your thunder here, Knight. I sort of feel like I just jump in and took over. Sorry about that!No!

Actually I am glad your here because we are trying to sell our house and we have had several "showings" yesterday and today and it has consumed my time!

genuineoriginal
June 16th, 2005, 10:37 AM
Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?
Look at this verse:
Leviticus 22:Say unto them, Whosoever he be of all your seed among your generations, that goeth unto the holy things, which the children of Israel hallow unto the LORD, having his uncleanness upon him, that soul shall be cut off from my presence: I am the LORD.
If the LORD is omnipresent, then where can the people go who are cut off from the presence of the LORD? The LORD has established that His presence is somewhere, whether it is in the garden of Eden in the cool of the evening, on His throne in heaven, talking to Abraham, or meeting with Moses in the tent of meeting. The LORD manifests his presence, he is not everywhere at the same time.

For an interesting look at how God sees things, look at these verses:
Zechariah 3:9For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
Zechariah 4:For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

The eyes of the LORD are not everywhere at once (omnipresent), nor do they see everything at once (omniscient), but they travel about the earth, seeing what they see.

Knight
June 16th, 2005, 10:37 AM
Clete(or anyone else) would you like to take a stab at my question? I'm really interested in what you have to say about it. :)
intro2faith, the following was posted here on TOL several years ago, you might find it interesting.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omnipresence: Do we really mean God is everywhere at all times? Is He in Hell and will He forever be in the Lake of Fire? Being where you do not want to be is like being imprisoned, and no one is going to imprison God. I doubt He will be in these places. We warn people not to go to Hell where they would live without God. Says the Lord to the wicked, "I will cast you out of My presence" (Jer. 23:39). If these observations hold, then our non-biblical term "omnipresence" overstates the truth.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omnipotence: Do we really mean that God has all power? God has created authorities, principalities and powers (Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Col. 1:16; 2:15; 1 Pet. 3:22; Mat. 24:29; Mark 13:25; Luke 21:26) and thus He has delegated authority and power to beings that He created. When the Bible describes "God, who cannot lie" (Titus 1:2) it touches on the principle of absolute right and wrong. Righteousness is a description of God's character and not an arbitrary designation. (When the Christian scholastics taught that God's morality was arbitrary, they paved the way for the godless Renaissance and the Enlightenment.) God can not make rape praise-worthy and faithfulness wicked. He cannot by decree reverse the absolutes. Good is truly good, because it reflects God's character; and evil is truly evil, because it rejects God's character. If these observations hold, then the typical definition of "omnipotence" supercedes the truth.

4-15-98 Bob Enyart on Omniscience: Do we really mean that God knows everything? Says the Lord to the wicked, "I, even I, will utterly forget you" (Jer. 23:39). An inspired plea to God states, "Do not remember the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions" (Ps. 25:7). "I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; And I will not remember your sins" (Isa. 43:25). God wants to put these wicked things out of His mind because it is ugly to remember them: "you have burdened Me with your sins, you have wearied Me with your iniquities" (Isa. 43:24). Must God recall in vivid detail every gross perversion acted out by homos in public restrooms? Who would impose that vulgar duty on God? If these observations hold also, then our non- biblical term "omniscience" overstates the truth. Of that which is knowable, God knows that which He chooses to know and remember.

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Ok...so what happens then to the fact that God is omnipresent? He would have known what was happening because He was also their at the time He was speaking in these verses. Or do you not believe that God is omnipresent?
The classic or traditional meaning of such terms as Omnipresent are generally true but are in fact overstatements which cannot be supported Biblically.

My beleif on these issues, which I beleive to fit the Biblical evidence more precisely is as follows...


Omnipotence - God can do anything that is doable that He wants to do.

Omniscience - God knows what is knowable. (basically a restatement of the above definition of Omnipotence).

Omnipresent - God is, at all times, everywhere and only where He wants to be.

So God cannot know the do the undoable (the logically absurd), know the unknowable (the future in exhaustive detail), or be in a place that does not exist (outside of time).

Does that answer your question?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Knight
June 16th, 2005, 11:08 AM
Oh and.... intro2faith when you get a chance I would like you to respond to my post #25. :up:

kmoney
June 16th, 2005, 03:22 PM
kmoney,

I can be a spectator in a game and even if I watch the whole game, I'm not causing one side or the other to win. I'm just observing the outcome.

It's the same thing if God has foreknowledge.

nancy,

we seem to be on the same side of this question so if you are presenting this as an argument for God knowing the future than you are talking to the wrong person.

Kevin

kmoney
June 16th, 2005, 03:39 PM
I don't know really how to respond to this. I know almost nothing about Neitzsche except that if memory serves me correctly I think Hitler was a big Neitzche fan. I know that doesn't really prove anything but Hitler is not a guy I would want taking my side. Anyway, I could be wrong about that. Either way, I don't see how it's relevent. I mean people can have any nut job theory they want, how would you ever confirm even any part of such a theory? I don't see how this could ever be related to anything remotely Christian, that much is certain.

Resting in Him,
Clete

First off, Nietzsche hated being associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Nazis manipulated his writings to make it seem anti-semetic and pro Nazi propaganda. Hitler may have been a fan of Nietzsche, but it was because people misused his writings.

I'm not saying I agree with ER, nor am I saying it is Christian, nor am I saying I could confirm it. Another reason why it isn't a great parallel is that I don't believe Nietzsche even believed in it, but people are split on that.

All I really tried to do is talk about it in a different way. I realize that there are problems with believing God knows the future, but I also see problems with God not knowing the future. To be honest, I don't completely see the consequences of believing God knows the future or he doesn't. Now I don't know you or how you live your life, but I really don't think that we live our lives much differently as far as making choices. I believe that God knows the future, but that really has no practical impact on my life.

Do you feel that you would live differently if you believed God knew the future? Or do you believe that because you are an open theist that your life is so much different because you are free to choose instead of being locked into the path God forsaw?

Kevin

nancy
June 16th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Clete, foreknowledge is not causal. Just because God observes what events occur does not mean he causes us to choose the paths he bserves us to choose any more than if watching a game has any affect on the outcome of the game.

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 06:07 PM
First off, Nietzsche hated being associated with Hitler and the Nazis. Nazis manipulated his writings to make it seem anti-semetic and pro Nazi propaganda. Hitler may have been a fan of Nietzsche, but it was because people misused his writings.
No doubt this is at least partly true.


I'm not saying I agree with ER, nor am I saying it is Christian, nor am I saying I could confirm it. Another reason why it isn't a great parallel is that I don't believe Nietzsche even believed in it, but people are split on that.
One might wonder why you even brought it up then. ;)


All I really tried to do is talk about it in a different way. I realize that there are problems with believing God knows the future, but I also see problems with God not knowing the future. To be honest, I don't completely see the consequences of believing God knows the future or he doesn't. Now I don't know you or how you live your life, but I really don't think that we live our lives much differently as far as making choices. I believe that God knows the future, but that really has no practical impact on my life.
The truth always has consequences as do falsehoods. Nearly everything that we do and believe in our Christian lives has to do with what we believe about who God is and what sort of world He has created. Getting this stuff right could possibly be the most important subject that there is aside from the subject of salvation itself, and the questions we are discussing here impacts on that issue as well.


Do you feel that you would live differently if you believed God knew the future? Or do you believe that because you are an open theist that your life is so much different because you are free to choose instead of being locked into the path God foresaw?

Kevin
An interesting question. The answer is basically no I wouldn't because my belief is in accordance with the truth of reality. In other words, those who disagree with me on these issues are forced to live their lives as though they did agree with me. No Calvinist, for example, knows who is and who is not elect and so lives as though there is no such thing as a predestined group known as "the elect". In effect they live their lives exactly as though Open Theism were the truth of Scripture (which of course it is). Their very lives testify that they have bought a lie.

Further, I think that issues of this nature are somewhat intuitive to those who don't come to these issues with preconceived ideas about what the answers should be. People I've met who where either not Christians at all or who had only recently became a Christian have been astonished to learn that most Christians totally believe in the idea that God exists outside of time and that He predestined every single minute detail of every event in all of history past present and future. They are incredulous when told that there are many who believe that such is the very gospel itself. In fact, one person I was telling about Calvinism simply thought I was pulling his leg; that I was making this stuff about predestination and the TULIP doctrines up. He didn't say so directly but I very much doubt that he would have ever become a Christian in the first place had he been witnessed to by a strong 5 point Calvinist. He just would have thought that Christianity was silly and ridiculous and obviously not true.

And while Arminian theology (exhaustive foreknowledge rather than predestination) yields a theology which is greatly more reasonable than Calvinism does, that's only true because it is closer to the truth than Calvinism is and so they reap the benefits of that additional measure of truth. Likewise, if my theology is that much closer to the truth than Arminianism, then I will reap even greater benefits, both theologically and practically.

And finally, there is one last point I would like to make and it will perhaps be the most direct answer to your question. I was a hard core 5 point Calvinist for most of my Christian life and so I can tell you from experience that it does indeed make a gigantic difference in almost every aspect of the Christian life. Simply put, Open Theism has made God much more real to me, very much more real indeed. I realize now that God is a real person with real emotions that I can really hurt. As a Calvinist I believed all such things to be "figures of speech" but that couldn't be further from the truth. He really does love ME. He doesn't just love everyone, He both knows and loves ME personally and wants very much to have a genuine personal relationship with ME, not just "man kind" or some other nebulous thing like that.
God is real, Christianity is real, this life we are living is real and the things we do have real consequences that are eternal and that we are personally responsible for. I'm not just some cog in God's fancy watch works that He has running for some unknown purpose that is above my finding out. No, on the contrary, God created man kind so that He might love them and that they might return that affection. That is THE reason you exist, for God to love you and for you to love God.
Both Calvinism and Arminianism obscure this vital fact by destroying what it means to love. I have to choose to love someone. If I do not, or cannot choose, then love is meaningless. For me to choose there has to be a choice; there has to be alternatives. This is why God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. It was to give Adam and Eve a choice, without which their love for God would have had no meaning.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know (i.e. to know intimately, to love) thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 16th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Clete, foreknowledge is not causal. Just because God observes what events occur does not mean he causes us to choose the paths he bserves us to choose any more than if watching a game has any affect on the outcome of the game.
I agree completely.

How does this impact my position?

godrulz
June 16th, 2005, 06:16 PM
God knows some of the future as settled/certain, and some of the future as unsettled/possible/probable.

Omniscience means to know what is knowable. He correctly knows reality as it is: the future is open, the past is fixed, the present is now. He knows the past and present exhaustively, and the future as it is (possible vs certain except that which He purposes to bring to pass by His ability vs foreknowledge).

kmoney
June 16th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Clete,

No doubt this is at least partly true.

I think it is more than partly true. There is a letter from Nietzsche about it.

One might wonder why you even brought it up then.
To show you the truth!!!!! haha :)

Further, I think that issues of this nature are somewhat intuitive to those who don't come to these issues with preconceived ideas about what the answers should be.
I can agree with that, and I would say I'm guilty of that. I have always believed that God knows the future and I'm sure the fact that I've always believed it does distort my judgement on some things, but I think the vast majority of people are guilty of that. I've belived it my entire Christian life and giving up that belief isn't going to come without a struggle :)

Likewise, if my theology is that much closer to the truth than Arminianism, then I will reap even greater benefits, both theologically and practically.

Didn't you say earlier that everybody is forced to live their lives the same way, so how do you gain practical benefits?

And finally, there is one last point I would like to make and it will perhaps be the most direct answer to your question. I was a hard core 5 point Calvinist for most of my Christian life and so I can tell you from experience that it does indeed make a gigantic difference in almost every aspect of the Christian life. Simply put, Open Theism has made God much more real to me, very much more real indeed. I realize now that God is a real person with real emotions that I can really hurt. As a Calvinist I believed all such things to be "figures of speech" but that couldn't be further from the truth. He really does love ME. He doesn't just love everyone, He both knows and loves ME personally and wants very much to have a genuine personal relationship with ME, not just "man kind" or some other nebulous thing like that.

That's great. I'm glad you were able to experience God in a new, more powerful way when you changed your theology, but I don't think open theology is necessary to feel the way you do.

God is real, Christianity is real, this life we are living is real and the things we do have real consequences that are eternal and that we are personally responsible for. I'm not just some cog in God's fancy watch works that He has running for some unknown purpose that is above my finding out. No, on the contrary, God created man kind so that He might love them and that they might return that affection. That is THE reason you exist, for God to love you and for you to love God.

I do not think God's foreknowledge takes this away.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism obscure this vital fact by destroying what it means to love. I have to choose to love someone. If I do not, or cannot choose, then love is meaningless. For me to choose there has to be a choice; there has to be alternatives. This is why God placed the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. It was to give Adam and Eve a choice, without which their love for God would have had no meaning.

Again, I do no think that God knowing the future takes this away.

I honestly am not trying to be stubborn or anything like that. I simply do not see from your logical arguments that (God knowing the future) = (no free will).

However, I am not saying that I'm locked to my belief of God knowing the future. What I am saying is that so far the arguments have not swayed me at all.

What could sway me is more study of what the bible says on it which I plan to do. There are several things I am trying to study in the bible right now though so we'll see when I get to open theology... :) (that doesn't mean I am done with this thread, I will still respond)

I do though have a couple questions for you to try and understand your stance better....

What do you do with prophecies?
From what I remember open theists believe that God fulfills his prophecies by working with the wills of men and trying to lead them towards it. In my opinion that is awfully close to violating the free will that you claim only exists in open theology. Is this what you believe? I know that is probably an oversimplification, so can you explain more?

Antichrist....God prophecied about the end times and the antichrist....If God is going to bring this to pass by working with the wills of men, does that mean he is going to push someone towards playing the role of antichrist? If not, how does the AC become the AC?

how can we trust prophetic parts in the bible at all if God can only try to work with people on earth to bring those prophecies to pass? It seems we can't.

Lastly I'd just like to thank you for your time and thoughts on this topic.....

Kevin

nancy
June 16th, 2005, 10:40 PM
It impacts your position because even if God knows the future perfectly, it doesn't affect us making future free will choices.

Yorzhik
June 16th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Nancy, whatever cause exists upon which we choose something, isn't that cause also built upon another cause? In other words, whenever something happens, there is always a reason why (and God knows all the reasons, right?), and that reason why has a reason why (and God knows all those reasons too, right?), and that reason why has a reason why, and all the reasons have reasons all the back to creation? Isn't that correct?

nancy
June 16th, 2005, 11:18 PM
Yorkitz, if what is why and when is where is how if?

The statement above makes as much sense as your post.

Yorzhik
June 16th, 2005, 11:38 PM
Yorkitz, if what is why and when is where is how if?

The statement above makes as much sense as your post.
Okay. We'll start at the beginning.

Every choice we make has causes. Every cause is known by God, therefore God knows all our choices.

Is that correct?

justchristian
June 17th, 2005, 12:01 AM
But what of free will. If our independant choices are nothing but casue and affect then free will is an illusion. No, I think what is amazing about free will is that in spite of everything we still have the independant choice to choose, esspecially to choose or not to choose God. Part of us, apart from our character, personality, hardships, everything that makes us us, is a will to choose in spite of everything. True we often default into choosing based on cause and effect. I recurringly choose not to touch a hot stove because I know it will hurt, but in spite of that knowledge, in spite of experience and knowledge being overwhelming causes to the contrary, I can still choose to touch that hot stove. We become the overwhelming cause, not things around us.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 06:21 AM
It impacts your position because even if God knows the future perfectly, it doesn't affect us making future free will choices.
Yes it does Nancy, but not because the knowledge causes those choices. I'll explain in my next couple of posts in a way that will hopefully make my position more clear.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 07:06 AM
Okay. We'll start at the beginning.

Every choice we make has causes. Every cause is known by God, therefore God knows all our choices.

Is that correct?
This is called 'Causal Determinism' and cannot be true and the Christian faith have any meaning whatsoever. Most people who subscribe to this belief will not go so far as to insist that God is subject to the same causality constraints but will not or cannot explain why if He is not subject to causality, and we are made in His image, that we must be.

Causality is indeed a powerful argument though because we seem to be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory. If you take the exact same amount of chemical and expose them to the exact same set of conditions, the resulting reaction will yield the exact same result every single time. It is important to point out however that this is not possible to accomplish. It’s just is not possible to get an exactly identical lump of sodium chloride dissolved into an exactly identical beaker of water. Even if you knew for sure that you had the exact same number of molecules of each substance, even one out of place electron on a single hydrogen atom is sufficient to call the experiment "different" and so such hypothetical situations do not exist in reality.

Further, even if such situations could exist we can know that the "causality principle" cannot apply to any situation in which a person with a free will is involved. We can know this because of another principle known as the ‘law of non-contradiction’. Causal Determinism is antithetical to free will, they are mutually exclusive and so to suggest that we have a free will in a rigorously causal universe is a logical absurdity. So if we could imagine a set of hypothetical twins who’s circumstances are exactly identical and who are faced with making the same decision, assuming that they do in fact have a free will, one twin can choose to do while the other chooses to do otherwise, causal factors not withstanding. It is my belief that it is the will itself that is the determining cause of such action on the part of our rebellious twin.

Further still, Causal Determinism is hostile to the Christian world view in many important ways, not the least of which is the fact that it renders concepts like love, justice, and morality meaningless. Love, as I mentioned in a previous post, must be chosen. If I do not choose of my own will to love someone then I do not love them at all. If my choices are determined by some causal chain of events then they are not chosen and love is nothing more than the result of a mindless precession of one cause after another. Love is meaningless in a universe where actions are not free. And if love is meaningless so is Christianity because Christianity is, by definition, the loving of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 07:24 AM
Again, I do no think that God knowing the future takes this [freedom] away.

I honestly am not trying to be stubborn or anything like that. I simply do not see from your logical arguments that (God knowing the future) = (no free will).
Because of the definition of the term "freedom" or "free will".
To be free means (in this context), having the ability to do or to do otherwise.

Would you agree with that definition or not?


However, I am not saying that I'm locked to my belief of God knowing the future. What I am saying is that so far the arguments have not swayed me at all.

What could sway me is more study of what the bible says on it which I plan to do. There are several things I am trying to study in the bible right now though so we'll see when I get to open theology... :) (that doesn't mean I am done with this thread, I will still respond)

I do though have a couple questions for you to try and understand your stance better....

What do you do with prophecies?
Which ones? The ones that came to pass or the ones that did not?


From what I remember open theists believe that God fulfills his prophecies by working with the wills of men and trying to lead them towards it. In my opinion that is awfully close to violating the free will that you claim only exists in open theology. Is this what you believe? I know that is probably an oversimplification, so can you explain more?
God works with and around and even in opposition to the will of man. Prophecy is not prewritten history, as many Christians believe. If it were then there wouldn't be as many unfulfilled prophecies in the Bible as there are. I can go into this more if you like but for now I think it would serve to clarify the debate if we tried to keep things as simple as possible. I will say though that God doing what He does to bring something to pass does not "violate the free will" of a person any more than you do when you work with the people around to get something accomplished.


Antichrist....God prophesied about the end times and the antichrist....If God is going to bring this to pass by working with the wills of men, does that mean he is going to push someone towards playing the role of antichrist? If not, how does the AC become the AC?
There is no shortage of people who would love to be the antichrist. For Satan to find a volunteer would not be difficult nor would it involve the removal of anyone's free will.


how can we trust prophetic parts in the bible at all if God can only try to work with people on earth to bring those prophecies to pass? It seems we can't.
You can trust God because He's God. Since when is a perfect record on predicting the future a prerequisite for trust? If you have such a prerequisite you're in trouble because there are several prophecies that God made in the Bible that just flat out did not come to pass. You can still trust God though because when a prophecy of God's doesn't come to pass it is because of a very good, very righteous reason. Jeremiah 18 is a terrific place to start if you're interested in what those reasons might be.


Lastly I'd just like to thank you for your time and thoughts on this topic.....

Kevin
You're very welcome! This is probably my favorite subject and so I could talk about this from now on probably. I appreciate your intellectual honesty. Attitudes like yours make this a much more interesting and fun conversation to have.

Resting in Him,
Clete

fool
June 17th, 2005, 08:29 AM
Is the book of life already written?
Is it already bound?
How many pages?
can God write in the margins if he runs out of room?

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Is the book of life already written?
Is it already bound?
How many pages?
can God write in the margins if he runs out of room?

There is some openness to this book. Rev. 3:5 If we overcome, our names will not be erased from the Book of Life. If we do not overcome....?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Is the book of life already written?
Is it already bound?
How many pages?
can God write in the margins if he runs out of room?

This question isn't really being asked and would be off topic if it were being asked. :rolleyes:

If you want to contribute something substantive to the discussion, I invite you to do so. Otherwise, I invite you to leave.

fool
June 17th, 2005, 10:33 AM
There is some openness to this book. Rev. 3:5 If we overcome, our names will not be erased from the Book of Life. If we do not overcome....?
overcome what?
seems like that says being in the book is the default

fool
June 17th, 2005, 10:38 AM
This question isn't really being asked and would be off topic if it were being asked. :rolleyes:

If you want to contribute something substantive to the discussion, I invite you to do so. Otherwise, I invite you to leave.
that statement isn't really being made and would make no sense if it was.

as far as on topic goes my question is the only one that need be answered to settle the debate

intro2faith
June 17th, 2005, 10:54 AM
Fool,

Names are continually being written in the Book of Life. Whenever someone gets saved, their name is written in it.

fool
June 17th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Fool,

Names are continually being written in the Book of Life. Whenever someone gets saved, their name is written in it.
what do you think about what Godrulz said?
let's do a hypothetical
a baby dies shortly after birth
dosen't get a chance to hear about Jesus
which book is he in?

intro2faith
June 17th, 2005, 12:09 PM
what do you think about what Godrulz said?
let's do a hypothetical
a baby dies shortly after birth
dosen't get a chance to hear about Jesus
which book is he in?
Good question. The baby has not yet reached the age of accountability, so he/she will go to Heaven.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Good question. The baby has not yet reached the age of accountability, so he/she will go to Heaven.
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
CleteWell said. :up:

I agree 100%.

If the alternative were true, one could make a good argument that abortion might actually be a good thing because it guarantee's a babies place in heaven. (I realize that is a sick thought but there are people who actually believe this).

intro2faith
June 17th, 2005, 12:58 PM
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well, here is some info I got from a website, I guess everyone can just make their own decisions!

2 SAMUEL 12:23—Do those who die in infancy go to heaven?

PROBLEM:

The Scriptures teach that we are born in sin (Ps. 51:5) because we “all sinned [in Adam]” (Rom. 5:12). Yet David implies here that his baby, who died, will be in heaven, saying, “I shall go to him” (v. 23).

SOLUTION:

There are three views regarding children who die before the age of accountability, that is, before they are old enough to be morally responsible for their own actions.

Only Elect Infants Go to Heaven.

Some strong Calvinists believe that only those babies that are predestined go to heaven (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:29). Those who are not elect go to hell. They see no greater problem with infant predestination than with adult predestination, insisting that everyone is deserving of hell and that it is only by God’s mercy that any are saved (Titus 3:5–6).

Only Infants Who Would Have Believed Go to Heaven.

Others claim that God knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10) and the potential as well as the actual. Thus, God knows those infants and little children who would have believed in Christ had they lived long enough. Otherwise, they contend, there would be people in heaven who would not have believed in Christ, which is contrary to Scripture (John 3:36). All infants whom God knows would not have believed, had they lived long enough, will go to hell.

All Infants Go to Heaven.

Still others believe that all who die before the age of accountability will go to heaven. They base this on the following Scriptures. First, Isaiah 7:16 speaks of an age before a child is morally accountable, namely, “before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” Second, David believed in life after death and the resurrection (Ps. 16:10–11), so when he spoke of going to be with his son who died after birth (2 Sam. 12:23), he implied that those who die in infancy go to heaven. Third, Psalm 139 speaks of an unborn baby as a creation of God whose name is written down in God’s “book” in heaven (vv. 14–16). Fourth, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14), thus indicating that even little children will be in heaven. Fifth, some see support in Jesus’ affirmation that even “little ones” (i.e., children) have a guardian angel “in heaven” who watches over them (Matt. 18:10). Sixth, the fact that Christ’s death for all made little children savable, even before they believed (Rom. 5:18–19). Finally, Jesus’ indication that those who did not know were not morally responsible (John 9:41) is used to support the belief that there is heaven for those who cannot yet believe, even though there is no heaven for those who are old enough and refuse to believe (John 3:36).

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Clete, without going into the causal determinism, you haven't addressed the issue.

In terms of the chemical experiment, how is standing back and observing how the chemicals react CAUSING the chemical reaction itself.

Foreknowledge or observing an outcome is not causal.

fool
June 17th, 2005, 01:24 PM
I can't find the verse right now but I seem to remember somthing about the spirits of the children always being in Gods presence
anyone?

fool
June 17th, 2005, 01:29 PM
Well actually I believe that the baby will be given a choice to make once he able to make such a choice. God is not a magician and I see no Biblical reason to believe that babies are instantly turned into fully mature adults and given a place in heaven by default. God is just and kind and merciful and is a Father to the fatherless. He is more than capable of having the children raised to maturity at which time they will have to make their choice for or against God.

One might wonder why someone raised under God's wing in such a way would ever want to reject Him but Satan and a third of the angels lived their entire existence in the presence of the Father and they fully rejected Him, and humans can be every bit as evil as any demon and so I wouldn't put it past someone to do such a thing.

At any rate, I don't believe such a blanket statement as "all those who die as babies will go to heaven" can be made Biblically.

Resting in Him,
Clete
how can we make this dovetail with the "no sadness in heaven" concept put forth by Intro2faith?
or does it not?

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Clete, God created us to have free will. In other words God CAUSED us to have free will. The fact that God caused us to have human freedom makes freedom free not unfree. Grace establishes nature rather than removing it.

You are right that free will is the the cause of its own movement. But what is free is not necesarily the cause of itself as neither for one thing to be the cause of another has to be the first cause.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 01:59 PM
I've heard lots of different views on this subject, and I'd love to hear yours!
Here are some starting questions:

Does God know the future?

If He does, how FAR into the future?

There's plenty more, but those are some starters :D

God doesn't need to know the future, nor does God need to plan things out.
God is not subject to time, only creatures who are subject to time find it necessary to make plans. God doesnt need to make plans because of the space/time continuim is subject to God, not the other way around.

Also, God doesn't have a plan for your life, your life is God's will.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 02:15 PM
God is not subject to time he is eternal. Eternal means without succession. The future is a propety of time as the temporal is successsion. Therefore God being eternal would know everything past, present and future in a similtaneous all encompassing "moment."

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 02:18 PM
God is not subject to time he is eternal. Eternal means without succession. The future is a propety of time as the temporal is successsion. Therefore God being eternal would know everything past, present and future in a similtaneous all encompassing "moment."
Or is the Creator of past,present and future - the whole of the space/time continuim, so its not so much that God knows the future but creates it in accordance to His will.

Nineveh
June 17th, 2005, 02:21 PM
Doesn't "creating" take time?

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 02:24 PM
No, creation can concievably occur without the passage of time.

Poly
June 17th, 2005, 02:35 PM
No, creation can concievably occur without the passage of time.

Can you give us biblical evidence to support this?

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 02:37 PM
Doesn't "creating" take time?
For you it does, but not for God. God didnt draw out a blueprint of the universe gather the materials and proceeded with hammers and nail and a crew of illegal alien evles to build it, God just brought it into being. God didnt say to Himself. "On day one I will make light, on day two I separate the waters..." and so on...God doesnt need to do that.

Poly
June 17th, 2005, 02:39 PM
For you it does, but not for God. God didnt draw out a blueprint of the universe gather the materials and proceeded with hammers and nail and a crew of illegal alien evles to build it, God just brought it into being. God didnt say to Himself. "On day one I will make light, on day two I separate the waters..." and so on...God doesnt need to do that.

Wow, it must be nice for God to have told you this in person.

This has to be the case, right? Since there's no biblical evidence for it, surely you wouldn't just be pulling stuff out of thin air.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 02:41 PM
Wow, it must be nice for God to have told you this in person.

This has to be the case, right? Since there's no biblical evidence for it, surely you wouldn't just be pulling stuff out of thin air.

So what you are saying is God is subject to time.

Poly
June 17th, 2005, 02:47 PM
So what you are saying is God is subject to time.

Yes. Can you point any biblical evidence to the contrary or is this something that you have heard others say and it kind of just sounds good to you so you choose to believe it?

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Yes. Can you point any biblical evidence to the contrary or is this something that you have heard others say and it kind of just sounds good to you so you choose to believe it?
can you show me biblical support for God being subject to time? Ig God is subject to time, then Time is bigger thatn God, and we shouldnt be worshipping God but Time. But the Bible says all things and that means all things including time are subject to God. But you say differently, so i have to agree with you instead of the Bible.

Yorzhik
June 17th, 2005, 02:51 PM
This is called 'Causal Determinism' and cannot be true and the Christian faith have any meaning whatsoever. Most people who subscribe to this belief will not go so far as to insist that God is subject to the same causality constraints but will not or cannot explain why if He is not subject to causality, and we are made in His image, that we must be.

Causality is indeed a powerful argument though because we seem to be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory. If you take the exact same amount of chemical and expose them to the exact same set of conditions, the resulting reaction will yield the exact same result every single time. It is important to point out however that this is not possible to accomplish. It’s just is not possible to get an exactly identical lump of sodium chloride dissolved into an exactly identical beaker of water. Even if you knew for sure that you had the exact same number of molecules of each substance, even one out of place electron on a single hydrogen atom is sufficient to call the experiment "different" and so such hypothetical situations do not exist in reality.

Further, even if such situations could exist we can know that the "causality principle" cannot apply to any situation in which a person with a free will is involved. We can know this because of another principle known as the ‘law of non-contradiction’. Causal Determinism is antithetical to free will, they are mutually exclusive and so to suggest that we have a free will in a rigorously causal universe is a logical absurdity. So if we could imagine a set of hypothetical twins who’s circumstances are exactly identical and who are faced with making the same decision, assuming that they do in fact have a free will, one twin can choose to do while the other chooses to do otherwise, causal factors not withstanding. It is my belief that it is the will itself that is the determining cause of such action on the part of our rebellious twin.

Further still, Causal Determinism is hostile to the Christian world view in many important ways, not the least of which is the fact that it renders concepts like love, justice, and morality meaningless. Love, as I mentioned in a previous post, must be chosen. If I do not choose of my own will to love someone then I do not love them at all. If my choices are determined by some causal chain of events then they are not chosen and love is nothing more than the result of a mindless precession of one cause after another. Love is meaningless in a universe where actions are not free. And if love is meaningless so is Christianity because Christianity is, by definition, the loving of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete
Wow, Clete. That's an awesome response. Let's hope Nancy reads that before she responds.

What say ye, Nancy?

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 02:57 PM
I already responded to it and dispelled it with ease, Yorkitz.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:00 PM
I already responded to it and dispelled it with ease, Yorkitz.

I don't see how causality can be antithetical to the Christian worldview, unless said Christian worldview is antithetical to reality and God.

Yorzhik
June 17th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Nancy, your response was "I don't understand." This is your quote:

Yorkitz, if what is why and when is where is how if?

The statement above makes as much sense as your post.
So I made a simpler question that was easier to understand. Here it is:

Every choice we make has causes. Every cause is known by God, therefore God knows all our choices.

Is that correct?

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 03:03 PM
can you show me biblical support for God being subject to time? Ig God is subject to time, then Time is bigger thatn God, and we shouldnt be worshipping God but Time. But the Bible says all things and that means all things including time are subject to God. But you say differently, so i have to agree with you instead of the Bible.What does the Bible say about creation?

Does it say God created all at once outside of time?

Or does it say God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th?

And . . . yes, God created "all things" but we should rightly interpret that to mean "all things in regard to creation". Because there are some obvious exclusions to "all things" i.e., God didn't created Himself, He didn't create love, He didn't create righteousness nor mercy. Some things aren't created yet exist because God exists. Time is one such thing (if you can call it a thing). Time . . . the concept that one event follows another event and one thought follows another thought, that is all time is - a concept, a way to explain reality in a rational way.

God is a rational, logical and a Living God therefore we (His creation) can conceptualize time in that we can understand that one event follows another event and one thought follows another thought etc.

Poly
June 17th, 2005, 03:08 PM
can you show me biblical support for God being subject to time?
No, you are the one bringing this up and claiming the illogical. It is your responsibility to back it up.



Ig God is subject to time, then Time is bigger thatn God, and we shouldnt be worshipping God but Time. But the Bible says all things and that means all things including time are subject to God. But you say differently, so i have to agree with you instead of the Bible.

But that's just it. You have to prove that time is something that one would have to "subject" themselves to as if it were a constraining thing rather than a simple concept to express the the measure and passing of events, proceedings, occurances, etc.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:10 PM
Time in according to physicist is not just some mere abstract idea floating in our heads, it is something with physical properties - it is a dimension.

The Genesis account is allegory, but it does provide clues as to the nature of Creation, especially when god brings light into being, thats the foundation of matter. God doesn't need to be created because God is not a creature nor is God a thing.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 03:11 PM
There are three views regarding children who die before the age of accountability, that is, before they are old enough to be morally responsible for their own actions.This "solution" skips the most logical view regarding the topic. Lets call this view number 4. :)

Upon death the faculties of ones soul/spirit are made whole. A child is matured, a retarded person is healed etc. The matured soul is judged. If that soul is found guilty and accountable for sin that soul is eternally condemned. If that soul is not found guilty or accountable for sin that soul is able to choose where it would like to spend eternity. I think other views violate God's character and assume He forces souls into heaven that do not wish to be there. God is a gentleman.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:12 PM
No, you are the one bringing this up and claiming the illogical. It is you're responsibility to back it up.




But that's just it. You have to prove that time is something that one would have to "subject" themselves to as if it were a constraining thing rather than a simple concept to express the the measure and passing of events, proceedings, occurances, etc.

The problem is , we have two definitions of time going, I am defing time as one part of the spacetime continuim and your defining it as a concept of measurement. To me God is niether subject to the dimension or the concept.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Time in according to physicist is not just some mere abstract idea floating in our heads, it is something with physical properties - it is a dimension.You are referring to the measurement of time, not the concept of time.


The Genesis account is allegory, but it does provide clues as to the nature of Creation, especially when god brings light into being, thats the foundation of matter. God doesn't need to be created because God is not a creature nor is God a thing.I disagree. There is no logical reason whatsoever to assume that God's word means something other than what is so plainly says.

God created in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Apparently you disagree.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:19 PM
There is no logical reason whatsoever to assume that God's word means something other than what is so plainly says.



If you really beleive that there is no allegory in God's word, or that we have to take everything that the Bible says literally then you have to accept that life is meaningless and a literal 10- headeddragon is going to pop out of the sea, tell us to worship it and put 666 on our heads.

A literal dragon.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 03:25 PM
If you really beleive that there is no allegory in God's word, or that we have to take everything that the Bible says literally then you have to accept that life is meaningless and a literal 10- headeddragon is going to pop out of the sea, tell us to worship it and put 666 on our heads.

A literal dragon.:bang:

Listen, listen . . .

Slow down and listen.

Did I say . . . "There is NO allegory in the Bible?" Or did I say . . . "There is no logical reason whatsoever to assume that God's word means something other than what is so plainly says."?

There is simply no reason to assume that the creation account in Genesis is allegorical unless of course you are a nut-ball evolutionist.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:26 PM
Clete, without going into the causal determinism, you haven't addressed the issue.

In terms of the chemical experiment, how is standing back and observing how the chemicals react CAUSING the chemical reaction itself.

Foreknowledge or observing an outcome is not causal.
I am not saying that it is causal, I'm saying that foreknowledge removes one's ability to do otherwise and therefore it destroys freedom because freedom is defined as being able to do or to do otherwise.

Let me ask you the same question I asked on another thread on this same topic.

Let's say that God knows for certain (because He saw it happen in the future or by whatever means) that 20 minutes from now I will be involved in a car accident where my legs are crushed by my strearing wheel and broken. Do I have the ability to get into my car or to do otherwise (say for example stay here at work for an extra hour and avoid this "fate" that God has foreseen?

If you answer "yes" then you must admit that God did not KNOW that I would have the accident. If you answer "no" then you must admit that I did not have the freedom to do otherwise.

Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:27 PM
how can we make this dovetail with the "no sadness in heaven" concept put forth by Intro2faith?
or does it not?
I do not beleive that there will be no sadness in heaven. In fact the Bible seems to indicate the reverse. God will dry every tear, right? Why would that be necessary if there were no tears shed in heaven?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:29 PM
There is simply no reason to assume that the creation account in Genesis is allegorical unless of course you are a nut-ball evolutionist.
With that reasoning there is no reason to assume the part about 10 headed dragors is allegorical either, if God's word is be taken plainly.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Clete, God created us to have free will. In other words God CAUSED us to have free will. The fact that God caused us to have human freedom makes freedom free not unfree. Grace establishes nature rather than removing it.

You are right that free will is the the cause of its own movement. But what is free is not necesarily the cause of itself as neither for one thing to be the cause of another has to be the first cause.
Yeah, okay. Sounds good to me. I really think you are misunderstanding my position, or else I am misunderstanding yours.
I am saying we are free not that we aren't. It is Calvinism that teaches we aren't free and freedom is logically incompatible with a primary tennet of Arminianism.

Freak
June 17th, 2005, 03:30 PM
With that reasoning there is no reason to assume the part about 10 headed dragors is allegorical either, if God's word is be taken plainly. Another Muslim? No?

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Another Muslim? No?

No, Orthodox Christian, not many of those around here.

Freak
June 17th, 2005, 03:33 PM
No, Orthodox Christian, not many of those around here.
Hasan_ibn_Sabah, is a unique name, where is it dervived from?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:33 PM
God doesn't need to know the future, nor does God need to plan things out.
God is not subject to time, only creatures who are subject to time find it necessary to make plans. God doesnt need to make plans because of the space/time continuim is subject to God, not the other way around.

Also, God doesn't have a plan for your life, your life is God's will.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Can you establish even on syllable of this Biblically?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:36 PM
So what you are saying is God is subject to time.
Time is not a thing one is subject to. Why do people insist on talking about time as though it were something more than an idea. Time is duration and succestion. When you say that God is eternal you are not saying that He is timeless you are saying that He has not limitation on His duration, that He has an unlimited or eternal amount of time. It's just the exact opposite of being timeless.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Saying it doesn't make it so.

Can you establish even on syllable of this Biblically?

Yes, the Bible states thats all things are subject to God.

Yorzhik
June 17th, 2005, 03:37 PM
My wife is Orthodox. It's better than Catholic at least.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:38 PM
I already responded to it and dispelled it with ease, Yorkitz.
Nancy this is the first intellectually dishonest post I've seen from you. I don't recall whether or not you and I have had exchanges in the past but up to this post you've been doing nicely in regards to responding honestly. You have neither responded nor dispelled anything, as far as I can tell you aren't even talking about the same issue.

Resting in Him,
Clete

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Clete, this is the last time I will answer this specific take on the argument.

You have the free will to take your car or not. Just because God observes what choice you pick does not take away your free will decision, he is just observing your free will decision.

Take an example if I watch a documentary on WWII. Just because I know the outcome of the war does not mean that the people in the documentary did not have a free will choice in what they did at that time. I'm just watching what occured.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Yes, the Bible states thats all things are subject to God.
The Bible says anything you want it to say if you do not use sound reason.

I want chapter and verse please and a specific argument that establishes your previous post.

I'd be willing to wager that you cannot do it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Hasan_ibn_Sabah, is a unique name, where is it dervived from?

Actually Hasan is quite a common name, ibn likes like the Hebrew 'ben, it means "son of" or "child of", Sabah is common too, its a place name.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 03:43 PM
The Bible says anything you want it to say if you do not use sound reason.

I want chapter and verse please and a specific argument that establishes your previous post.

I'd be willing to wager that you cannot do it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

So you don't beleive all things are subject to God?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Clete, this is the last time I will answer this specific take on the argument.

You have the free will to take your car or not. Just because God observes what choice you pick does not take away your free will decision, he is just observing your free will decision.

Take an example if I watch a documentary on WWII. Just because I know the outcome of the war does not mean that the people in the documentary did not have a free will choice in what they did at that time. I'm just watching what occured.
WWII happen in the past Nancy. The past is fixed and so of course this does not apply. Can people in the past redo things so that history is changing all the time only we can't tell because to us the past is the past and our knowledge of it changes as it changes and so it seems to us not to change? Rediculous right? So your example doesn't apply. People in the past cannot do otherwise because their deeds have already been done. If God has already seen what I will do then I am no different that a character in your documentory and have no freedom to do anything other than what God has witnessed.
No matter how you slice it. If God knows the future then I do not have free will. The logic is perfect and inescapable. If you want to believe that God knows the future fine, believe what you want, but you cannot have it both ways.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 03:47 PM
So you don't beleive all things are subject to God?
I will not respond to you again until you establish you previous post. I am not stupid Hasan.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 03:56 PM
Clete if God is outside time then he can know the future.

I have simply refuted your argument by explaining over and over again(if you want to say I have never addressed it, I guess that's your free will choice) that foreknowledge is not causal and therefore foreknowledge does not cause our future choices.

My example is valid in that observing something does not cause something to occur.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:14 PM
I will not respond to you again until you establish you previous post. I am not stupid Hasan.
Okay

Bible: Know ye that the Lord he is God

Bible:Know ye that the Lord he is God

Bible: O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Bible: God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Bible: The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with strength wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved.

Judaic Prayer: Hear us Lord, Master of the Universe

You: God is subject to time.

Thats just psalms and a portion on how the Jews address God, God is Soveriegn over the universe, over the entire universe according to the Bible, the entire universe is the whole of the spacetime continuim. The Bible clearly states that God is Sovereign over everything, the whole Bible is a testament to that fact. God the Father gives all Authority and makes all things subject to Jesus Christ. How can God do that if all thing are not subject to God.

Now show me where in the Bible does it say that God is subject to time

drbrumley
June 17th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Well, another muslim. Thats cool.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Well, another muslim. Thats cool.

Where?

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 04:18 PM
Clete if God is outside time then he can know the future.I am right, therefore . . . I am right. :D

Nancy surely you can do better?


My example is valid in that observing something does not cause something to occur.If your observation of an event is prior to the event i.e., foreknowledge, and your observation is perfect (the correct actual future outcome) then there is only one possible future and therefore freewill is removed.

You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

drbrumley
June 17th, 2005, 04:19 PM
Where?
If your not, the name implies it. My apologies.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 04:22 PM
Okay

Bible: Know ye that the Lord he is God

Bible:Know ye that the Lord he is God

Bible: O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.

Bible: God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Bible: The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with strength wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished that it cannot be moved.

Judaic Prayer: Hear us Lord, Master of the Universe

You: God is subject to time.

Thats just psalms and a portion on how the Jews address God, God is Soveriegn over the universe, over the entire universe according to the Bible, the entire universe is the whole of the spacetime continuim. The Bible clearly states that God is Sovereign over everything, the whole Bible is a testament to that fact. God the Father gives all Authority and makes all things subject to Jesus Christ. How can God do that if all thing are not subject to God.

Now show me where in the Bible does it say that God is subject to timeI think you think you are making some type of logical point but it's simply not there.

You have an inability to distinguish time (the measurement) from time (the concept of a sequentially reality).

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 04:22 PM
Clete, here is a better example.

According to Einstein's theories, if I was travelling at the speed of light, I could observe events that are not moving at the speed of light at an accelerated rate and see the future of those events relative to my frame of reference.

I would see people quickly making whatever free will choices they can, but I don't stop them from having free will just because I observe them from my realtive position.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:24 PM
If your not, the name implies it. My apologies.

I am an Orthodox Christian, Greek Orthodox Christian variety, we go way back to the 1st century Church, you know The Church, the real Church, the one established by Christ himself not Pope Linus, not Emperor Constantine or Martin Luther or John Calvin or Pat Robertson but the Church established by Christ.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:27 PM
I think you think you are making some type of logical point but it's simply not there.

You have an inability to distinguish time (the measurement) from time (the concept of a sequentially reality).

Point was, the Bible clearly states that all things are subject to God, both concepts in the human mind and the reality outside the human mind are subject to God.

Why are you people insisting that God is subject to anything when that clearly contradicts the Bible?

drbrumley
June 17th, 2005, 04:28 PM
I am an Orthodox Christian, Greek Orthodox Christian variety, we go way back to the 1st century Church, you know The Church, the real Church, the one established by Christ himself not Pope Linus, not Emperor Constantine or Martin Luther or John Calvin or Pat Robertson but the Church established by Christ.

ok, if you say so.......:darwinsm:

sorry

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:36 PM
ok, if you say so.......:darwinsm:

sorry
I take it you are an atheist?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Clete, here is a better example.

According to Einstein's theories, if I was travelling at the speed of light, I could observe events that are not moving at the speed of light at an accelerated rate and see the future of those events relative to my frame of reference.
This is incorrect. According to Einstein's THEORIES you would not notice any difference while you were traveling near the speed of light unless you were observing someone who was not traveling nearly as fast as you are (which would be rather difficult). There "time" (actually their fourth dimention) would seem to you to be accelerated but what is actually accuring is that your "time" has slowed down. Either way, you are not seeing into the future nor are you time traveling.
What's more important to this discussion is that even Einstien couldn't say for sure whether these effects had to do with time itself or with the measurement of it. This is still a very open question in physics circles, so much so that there are now physisists who do not beleive that time exists at all (in the sense that Einstein beleived it did). The point here being, Einstien's theories of both general and special relativity do not prove that time is a thing and so do nothing to prove your case.


I would see people quickly making whatever free will choices they can, but I don't stop them from having free will just because I observe them from my realtive position.
Yes, if your hypothetical here was true, you would upon observing their choice, remove their ability to do otherwise because the choice would move into the fixed past. The past cannot be altered and is therefore not free. If the future is likewise fixed then it is likewise not free.

The only way you are going to escape this is to redefine what it means to be free.

Resting in Him,
Clete

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Clete,


Because of the definition of the term "freedom" or "free will".
To be free means (in this context), having the ability to do or to do otherwise.

Would you agree with that definition or not?

Sure....
but I'll say what I said before....God knowing our choices doesn't take the choice away. This seems to be your line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong)....
1) free will is the ability to do or to do otherwise
2) If God knows the future the future can only follow one path, the path God forsaw
3) We are on that path, therefore we don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise
4) no free will

I agree with you on 1) and 2).....Where we split on the issue is at 3) or between 3) and 4)
God can see the future, therefore God can know the future, but God that knowledge does not have any affect whatsoever on that future.

Which ones? The ones that came to pass or the ones that did not?

I didn't really have either group in mind. I meant just in general, but since you asked....

for the ones that came to pass...you believe that God worked with the will of people to bring them to pass?

for the ones that didn't happen....you believe this happened because people didn't work with God?


I will say though that God doing what He does to bring something to pass does not "violate the free will" of a person any more than you do when you work with the people around to get something accomplished.
Makes sense....

There is no shortage of people who would love to be the antichrist. For Satan to find a volunteer would not be difficult nor would it involve the removal of anyone's free will.

So Satan works with the will of that person?
If God prophesied that the end times will happen as they do in the bible, than, according to you, we can believe that God will work with the wills of people to bring it to pass?
but God doesn't push the antichrist Himself? he lets Satan do it? if that is true than couldn't you say God and Satan are working together? And if not, than does God know Satan will rise the antichrist up? you obviously don't believe God knows satan will rise the antichrist up because you don't believe God knows the future, so does God work with the will of Satan to work with the will of someone to make that person the antichrist?

If you have such a prerequisite you're in trouble because there are several prophecies that God made in the Bible that just flat out did not come to pass.
Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....

Ok...from here on it isn't in response to anything you said.....

Not sure if you saw my thread in the politics forum about the "Bible Code Bombshell" book. First off, do you believe at all in the bible code? I would assume no because you believe God doesn't know the future. Honestly I have mixed emotions about the prophetic bible code, but what I am more intrigued about is the new book (the book I posted about). This new book isn't about the bible code foretelling future events; the messages hidden in the code are relevant to the verses from which the message comes from.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44348
That is a link to the article if you care to read it...anyway, the one example from the article is from Isaiah 53. The messages found include "Dreadful day for Mary". Now I'm not sure what you will believe on this, and I honestly am not sure what I believe either, but.....
if that message was put in there by God and it isn't some result of probability than you almost have to say God knows the future. That message talks of Mary and if God doesn't know the future he wouldn't even have known Mary would exist. I guess you could say that God wanted the mother of Jesus to be named "Mary" so God worked with the will of Mary, but I sure hope you wouldn't say that.....but, I imagine you will simply belive that a bible code of any kind is untrue and is a random result of the wording of the scriptures (if you do than ok, because, like I said, I'm not even sure what I think about it all, I was just throwing it in here because I find it mildly relevant)

Question....Do you believe people can pray for "God's will" over someones life. Do you believe that God has a plan for your life? I would assume no because God doesn't know what will happen to you so he can't have a plan, except that you have salvation.

Kevin

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 04:43 PM
I take it that most of you beleive that God's will is not sovereign. I beleive that everything that occurs is God's will and nothing can go against God's will.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 04:54 PM
I take it that most of you beleive that God's will is not sovereign.To the contrary.

God is so completely sovereign that He is sovereign over His own sovereignity!

Said another way, God is in control of His faculties.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 04:55 PM
I beleive that everything that occurs is God's will and nothing can go against God's will.If that were true why would God state that we are capable of resisting His will?

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 05:06 PM
If that were true why would God state that we are capable of resisting His will?

I can stand on a beach during an earthquake and try to resist a tsunami - doesn't mean i am going to win. We can resist God's will but we are still subject to His will. Pharoah resisted God but did everything God willed.


"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

God does whatever he wants

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....I am sure Clete will name a few for you but why would you need more than one?

Wouldn't one be enough?

In other words . . . if there were ONE event that God prophesied or predicted that DID NOT come to pass wouldn't that be proof that the future was at least partially open?

I assert that if there were a billion prophesies that all came to pass as predicted, yet if there were just one prophecy that didn't come to pass it would prove that the future was not closed.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:06 PM
It's theory I'll admit. The flaw you are making is saying that you are removing theor free will choices.

Wrong they are free to choose what they want. It is just from your relative position you can see their choices.

As I said, just because we have a free will by our nature does not mean that we are the cause of our free will nature.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 05:12 PM
I can stand on a beach during an earthquake and try to resist a tsunami - doesn't mean i am going to win. We can resist God's will but we are still subject to His will. Pharoah resisted God but did everything God willed.Huh????

Are you asserting it was God's will that Pharoah keep His people captive and make slaves of them?

Is that what you are saying?

Was it God's will that man turn from Him and sin in the garden?

Was it God's will that Hitler have 6 million Jews murdered?

Was it God's will that terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center?

Is it God's will that millions of babies are aborted each year?

And is it God's will that the majority reject Him and go to hell for eternity?

Thinking these things perverts God and His character.

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 05:13 PM
I am sure Clete will name a few for you but why would you need more than one?

Wouldn't one be enough?

In other words . . . if there were ONE event that God prophesied or predicted that DID NOT come to pass wouldn't that be proof that the future was at least partially open?

I assert that if there were a billion prophesies that all came to pass as predicted, yet if there were just one prophecy that didn't come to pass it would prove that the future was not closed.
Knight,
No, 1 isn't good enough....He has to get less than half right for the future to be closed........... :) kidding of course

I agree with you...God knowing future is an absolute proposition, therefore a single contradiction is sufficient to disprove it. I just want to have at least a few examples to look at, is that ok with you!?!?!?! :)

Kevin

Emo
June 17th, 2005, 05:13 PM
The Bible is full of humans resisting God's will! Here's just one........

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.


Oh wait! Here's more resistance to God's will.

John 5:40
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:13 PM
I think the flaw you are making is that in the present moment we have free will choices. If we choose an action then that choice becomes frozen in the past anyways. Even though our past actions cannot be undone, it does not change the fact that we have free will.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 05:14 PM
As I said, just because we have a free will by our nature does not mean that we are the cause of our free will nature.You continue to assert that but have yet to come up with a logical explanation of how such a assertion could work.

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 05:14 PM
Clete,


Sure....
but I'll say what I said before....God knowing our choices doesn't take the choice away. This seems to be your line of thinking (correct me if I'm wrong)....
1) free will is the ability to do or to do otherwise
2) If God knows the future the future can only follow one path, the path God forsaw
3) We are on that path, therefore we don't have the ability to do or to do otherwise
4) no free will

I agree with you on 1) and 2).....Where we split on the issue is at 3) or between 3) and 4)
God can see the future, therefore God can know the future, but God that knowledge does not have any affect whatsoever on that future.
I am not saying that it would effect the future, I am not saying that God's knowledge is causative.

The syllogism you offered is exactly right. It is not only valid (logically) but it is sound (i.e. all the premises are true therefore the conclusion must also be true). If you reject the conclusion you must do so at the expense of at least one of the premises. You've already agreed that premise one is correct but have rejected the conclusion. You are at this point required to reject either premise 2 or premise 3, which will it be?


I didn't really have either group in mind. I meant just in general, but since you asked....

for the ones that came to pass...you believe that God worked with the will of people to bring them to pass?

for the ones that didn't happen....you believe this happened because people didn't work with God?
Generally yes, this is what I believe.


So Satan works with the will of that person?
The antichrist may very well be Satan incarnate in which case this would not be the case but if Satan takes over a person's will it would not be allowed to happen by force. If it were by force then the processed person would be a victim and not culpable for his actions while so processed, but this is way off topic here how did we even get on this?


If God prophesied that the end times will happen as they do in the bible, then, according to you, we can believe that God will work with the wills of people to bring it to pass?
Yes. With, around, and in opposition to the wills of people as necessary.


but God doesn't push the antichrist Himself? he lets Satan do it? if that is true than couldn't you say God and Satan are working together? And if not, then does God know Satan will rise the antichrist up? you obviously don't believe God knows Satan will rise the antichrist up because you don't believe God knows the future, so does God work with the will of Satan to work with the will of someone to make that person the antichrist?
Much of what we consider end times prophecy is not Biblical first of all, and some of what you've said here I think falls into that category. But that is neither here nor there. For the purposes of this topic the idea is not so convoluted as you are making it out to be. God has an overall plan for the Earth which He intends to bring to pass in one way or another. It is not necessary for God to have every minute detail of the future worked out in order for Him to announce an intended plan. There is not one prophecy in the Book of Revelation that absolutely must come to pass. If Israel repents then God will also repent and will not do the things which He currently intends to do to Israel. (Jer. 18).


Can you name a few? I'm not asking you to do this because I don't believe they are there; I simply want to go through a few....do not give the story of Jonah though, Knight already gave that one earlier....
As if Jonah's prophecy wouldn't be enough to prove the point, right?

I'll give you two more...


Joshua 3:10
And Joshua said, "By this you shall know that the living God is among you, and that He will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizzites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites:

Matthew 16:28
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.


Ok...from here on it isn't in response to anything you said.....

Not sure if you saw my thread in the politics forum about the "Bible Code Bombshell" book. First off, do you believe at all in the bible code?
No, not at all. It has been proven repeatedly to be a sham.


I would assume no because you believe God doesn't know the future. Honestly I have mixed emotions about the prophetic bible code, but what I am more intrigued about is the new book (the book I posted about). This new book isn't about the bible code foretelling future events; the messages hidden in the code are relevant to the verses from which the message comes from.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44348
That is a link to the article if you care to read it...anyway, the one example from the article is from Isaiah 53. The messages found include "Dreadful day for Mary". Now I'm not sure what you will believe on this, and I honestly am not sure what I believe either, but.....
if that message was put in there by God and it isn't some result of probability than you almost have to say God knows the future. That message talks of Mary and if God doesn't know the future he wouldn't even have known Mary would exist. I guess you could say that God wanted the mother of Jesus to be named "Mary" so God worked with the will of Mary, but I sure hope you wouldn't say that.....but, I imagine you will simply believe that a bible code of any kind is untrue and is a random result of the wording of the scriptures (if you do than ok, because, like I said, I'm not even sure what I think about it all, I was just throwing it in here because I find it mildly relevant)
I believe that the so called Bible codes (of which there have been several versions) have been repeatedly debunked by solid statistical science.
http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/torah.html


Question....Do you believe people can pray for "God's will" over someone's life.
Do you believe that is appropriate for you to ask a Father to be involved in his children's lives? I do, so the answer to this one is, yes.


Do you believe that God has a plan for your life? I would assume no because God doesn't know what will happen to you so he can't have a plan, except that you have salvation.
God plan, or will for my life is that I love Him and do rightly. Does God have a specific plan for my life that was formulated eons before I ever existed? No, certainly not. God is not interested in micro managing our lives any more that your father is (or should be) interested in micro managing your life or you are in micro managing the lives of your own children. How would you feel about how your children turned out if they had to come to you before making any important decision? Wouldn't that indicate that you had failed to teach them what they needed to live their lives? God is the same way. God wants for us to trust Him and to have a relationship with Him where we feel comfortable approaching Him about whatever we want, but that doesn't mean that He wants for us to not learn right from wrong and to learn wisdom and to live our lives accordingly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 05:15 PM
Knight,
No, 1 isn't good enough....He has to get less than half right for the future to be closed........... :) kidding of course

I agree with you...God knowing future is an absolute proposition, therefore a single contradiction is sufficient to disprove it. I just want to have at least a few examples to look at, is that ok with you!?!?!?! :)

Kevin:D LOL... hey that was funny - I like your style! :up:

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Huh????

Are you asserting it was God's will that Pharoah keep His people captive and make slaves of them?

Yes, thats what the Bible teaches, that God harden Pharoah's heart


Is that what you are saying?

Was it God's will that man turn from Him and sin in the garden?

Was it God's will that Hitler have 6 million Jews murdered?

Was it God's will that terrorists fly planes into the World Trade Center?

Is it God's will that millions of babies are aborted each year?

And is it God's will that the majority reject Him and go to hell for eternity?

Thinking these things perverts God and His character.

I didn't say it, the Bible says it:

There is no evil in the city that the Lord has not caused.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Yes, thats what the Bible teaches, that God harden Pharoah's heart

I didn't say it, the Bible says it:

There is no evil in the city that the Lord has not caused.Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Pharoah was already inclined to evil. God just hardened his heart by withdrawing his grace from pharoah and letting him go about his evil end.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 05:29 PM
Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!


So what you are implying is that the Bible contadicts itself, becuase you are using James 1 to contradict Romans 9

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Pharoah was already inclined to evil. God just hardened his heart by withdrawing his grace from pharoah and letting him go about his evil end.

We all are inclined towards evil, the absence of good is inherent in human nature.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:31 PM
knight, God created our human free will, we didn't. That's all my statement says.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Clete, you are also making the presumption that observing from the eternity is observing everything as if it were the past whereas eternity is a mode of existence without beginning, end or succession; the whole and perfect simultaneous possesion of limitless life.

nancy
June 17th, 2005, 05:49 PM
One last difficult concept is that we observe existence as "done existence." That is existence is what we observe through our senses as a priori.

God's knowing is God's doing etc. He we experince "doing existence." It's a compeltely different point of view as existence itself is deoendant on God.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 17th, 2005, 05:52 PM
Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

God is not evil. We are.


Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

Unlike us, God takes responsibility for His creation.

Here are some Bible quotes, and remember we are to take the Bible at face value, like you said:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby"

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

" ... I have created the waster to destroy."

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... "

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."


[QUOTE}God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.{/QUOTE}

That's kinda arrogant. Since when does God need anyone? God can defend Himself just fine.

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 06:35 PM
Clete,


Matthew 16:28
Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
Just a thought on this quickly....
I don't think this applies because Jesus said that only the Father knows the time that Jesus will come back. I think it is clear that Jesus, Paul, and probably all the apostles and disciples thought Jesus would return ALOT sooner than this. I don't think this was a prophecy per se. If so than that prophecy was void because He said Himself that he didn't know when He would return, only the Father knows the time.

Kevin

fool
June 17th, 2005, 07:44 PM
Well there ya have it folks God is evil!

Your theology is wicked and perverse and you should be ashamed of yourself. Your theology causes you to convict God of the most heinous evils for all of history.

God has asked me to defend His name against knuckle-heads such as yourself.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
how do you make the words real big like that?

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 07:58 PM
So what you are implying is that the Bible contadicts itself, becuase you are using James 1 to contradict Romans 9

Romans 9 does not contradict it, your interpretation of it does which is evidence that your interpretation of it is wrong. If you would like to know what Romans 9 is really teaching read this...

Romans 9 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=780178&postcount=4)

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 08:02 PM
Clete,

I am not saying that it would effect the future, I am not saying that God's knowledge is causative.

The syllogism you offered is exactly right. It is not only valid (logically) but it is sound (i.e. all the premises are true therefore the conclusion must also be true). If you reject the conclusion you must do so at the expense of at least one of the premises. You've already agreed that premise one is correct but have rejected the conclusion. You are at this point required to reject either premise 2 or premise 3, which will it be?

Which will it be? Neither. I stand by my conclusion that we can still have free will with 1), 2), & 3) being true....Like I said before, I just don't see the lack of free will as following from God knowing the future. You see it otherwise.

Generally yes, this is what I believe.
ok

There is not one prophecy in the Book of Revelation that absolutely must come to pass.
So the antichrist may never come?

It is not necessary for God to have every minute detail of the future worked out in order for Him to announce an intended plan.
I agree, and as far as I know I never said otherwise.

As if Jonah's prophecy wouldn't be enough to prove the point, right?
Knight asked the same thing and I responded....look if you care

I'll give you two more...
What generosity!!! :)

No, not at all. It has been proven repeatedly to be a sham.
I'm also skeptical, espeically by the prophecies.

Do you believe that is appropriate for you to ask a Father to be involved in his children's lives? I do, so the answer to this one is, yes.
Sure I believe it is appropriate to ask God to be involve din my children's lives.That isn't exactly what I meant though, but you answered it in the next few sentences.

How would you feel about how your children turned out if they had to come to you before making any important decision? Wouldn't that indicate that you had failed to teach them what they needed to live their lives?
Situation....someone asks God if they should take job A or job B. They ask God what His will is in this situation. You feel this is good? bad? or doesn't really matter?

Kevin

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 08:03 PM
how do you make the words real big like that?

There is a font size drop down box.

See now my words are BIG.....

now my words are small....

Clete
June 17th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Clete,


Which will it be? Neither. I stand by my conclusion that we can still have free will with 1), 2), & 3) being true....Like I said before, I just don't see the lack of free will as following from God knowing the future. You see it otherwise.
How I see it is irrelivent. The fact of the matter is that you are being contradictory. You are in effect say that freedom is both the ability and the inability to do or to do otherwise at the same time and in the same relationship. That is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Your position is irrational.


So the antichrist may never come?
This is not likely but possible yes, so says Jeremiah.


I agree, and as far as I know I never said otherwise.
Good deal! :thumb:


Knight asked the same thing and I responded....look if you care
I saw it a few momments ago. And that's all good as long as you weren't blowing the Jonah prophecy off, which it doesn't seem to be what you were doing.


Situation....someone asks God if they should take job A or job B. They ask God what His will is in this situation. You feel this is good? bad? or doesn't really matter?
It depends on the jobs. If one of the jobs is dancing at a strip bar then God would be angry that you even asked such a stupid question. If neither job was immoral then it would be appropriate to ask God for wisdom as it always is but if you asked God flat out which job you should take and there where no moral difference between the two then I would amagine that God's response would be something like, "Just pick one and do it with all you heart! I'm not the one who's going to be doing the job, you are. Use the wisdom that you have learned from Me and choose.


Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Resting in Him,
Clete

fool
June 17th, 2005, 08:47 PM
There is a font size drop down box.

See now my words are BIG.....

now my words are small....
thanks

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 08:50 PM
Clete,
Wow, the fact that I'm responding to your post so quickly tells you that I'm having one EVENTFUL friday night!!! haha, :) anyway....

How I see it is irrelivent. The fact of the matter is that you are being contradictory. You are in effect say that freedom is both the ability and the inability to do or to do otherwise at the same time and in the same relationship. That is a violation of the law of non-contradiction. Your position is irrational.
I do not believe I am saying that "freedom is both the ability and the inability to do or to do otherwise"....
I am saying that freedom is the ability to do or to do otherwise. We have free will to make choices in our life. God knows those choices. When God looks into the future it is as if life is happening at that moment and God is seeing it happen live. Ok, I hate to use this angle, but I'm gonna do it anyway :)....remember the movie "Back to the Future"?
Lets say someone actually has a time machine and travels to the year 2025 and lets say they witness the Kansas City Royals win the World Series (GO ROYALS!!!)...then the person travels back to the present where the Royals are 24-41 (HORRIBLE!). That person knows what will happen in the year 2025. It isn't just a prophesy; they KNOW what will happen. Does that mean the events of 2025 will occur without free will? No, at least I don't think so. Now, my time machine example isn't EXACTLY how God would know the future, but do you at least kinda see where I'm coming from? haha......

I saw it a few momments ago. And that's all good as long as you weren't blowing the Jonah prophecy off, which it doesn't seem to be what you were doing.
I wasn't.....

It depends on the jobs. If one of the jobs is dancing at a strip bar then God would be angry that you even asked such a stupid question.
HA, yes. I was leaving immoral jobs out of the question, though I didn't explicitly mention this.

If neither job was immoral then it would be appropriate to ask God for wisdom as it always is but if you asked God flat out which job you should take and there where no moral difference between the two then I would amagine that God's response would be something like, "Just pick one and do it with all you heart! I'm not the one who's going to be doing the job, you are. Use the wisdom that you have learned from Me and choose.

Agreed.

Kevin

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Clete,

Keep in mind that, as I said before, I am not joined at the side with my belief of God knowing the future. I am open to the possibility of Open Theology, but it has nothing to do with the logical arguments you have given, and everything to do with scripture.

Kevin

Yorzhik
June 17th, 2005, 09:55 PM
Nancy, sorry I put my question in a quote box so it was hard to see that it was being asked of you. Here is the question outside of a quote box. It's a very easy question to answer.

Every choice we make has causes. Every cause is known by God, therefore God knows all our choices. Is that correct?

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:06 PM
what do you think about what Godrulz said?
let's do a hypothetical
a baby dies shortly after birth
dosen't get a chance to hear about Jesus
which book is he in?


The baby did not reject Christ and is not mentally or morally capable. They go to heaven and are in the Book of Life.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Well, here is some info I got from a website, I guess everyone can just make their own decisions!

2 SAMUEL 12:23—Do those who die in infancy go to heaven?

PROBLEM:

The Scriptures teach that we are born in sin (Ps. 51:5) because we “all sinned [in Adam]” (Rom. 5:12). Yet David implies here that his baby, who died, will be in heaven, saying, “I shall go to him” (v. 23).

SOLUTION:

There are three views regarding children who die before the age of accountability, that is, before they are old enough to be morally responsible for their own actions.

Only Elect Infants Go to Heaven.

Some strong Calvinists believe that only those babies that are predestined go to heaven (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:29). Those who are not elect go to hell. They see no greater problem with infant predestination than with adult predestination, insisting that everyone is deserving of hell and that it is only by God’s mercy that any are saved (Titus 3:5–6).

Only Infants Who Would Have Believed Go to Heaven.

Others claim that God knows the end from the beginning (Isa. 46:10) and the potential as well as the actual. Thus, God knows those infants and little children who would have believed in Christ had they lived long enough. Otherwise, they contend, there would be people in heaven who would not have believed in Christ, which is contrary to Scripture (John 3:36). All infants whom God knows would not have believed, had they lived long enough, will go to hell.

All Infants Go to Heaven.

Still others believe that all who die before the age of accountability will go to heaven. They base this on the following Scriptures. First, Isaiah 7:16 speaks of an age before a child is morally accountable, namely, “before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good.” Second, David believed in life after death and the resurrection (Ps. 16:10–11), so when he spoke of going to be with his son who died after birth (2 Sam. 12:23), he implied that those who die in infancy go to heaven. Third, Psalm 139 speaks of an unborn baby as a creation of God whose name is written down in God’s “book” in heaven (vv. 14–16). Fourth, Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14), thus indicating that even little children will be in heaven. Fifth, some see support in Jesus’ affirmation that even “little ones” (i.e., children) have a guardian angel “in heaven” who watches over them (Matt. 18:10). Sixth, the fact that Christ’s death for all made little children savable, even before they believed (Rom. 5:18–19). Finally, Jesus’ indication that those who did not know were not morally responsible (John 9:41) is used to support the belief that there is heaven for those who cannot yet believe, even though there is no heaven for those who are old enough and refuse to believe (John 3:36).


Are u really 15 years old? You cannot understand my posts?

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 10:09 PM
thanks

You should try it out man. It's PHUN... haha

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:11 PM
God is not subject to time he is eternal. Eternal means without succession. The future is a propety of time as the temporal is successsion. Therefore God being eternal would know everything past, present and future in a similtaneous all encompassing "moment."

There are several theories on the nature of eternity. Endless/everlasting duration/succession/sequence without beginning or end is more probable than 'eternal now' timelessness. "Eternal means without succession" is begging the question or circular reasoning: you are assuming what you are trying to prove.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:14 PM
can you show me biblical support for God being subject to time? Ig God is subject to time, then Time is bigger thatn God, and we shouldnt be worshipping God but Time. But the Bible says all things and that means all things including time are subject to God. But you say differently, so i have to agree with you instead of the Bible.


God is love and wisdom. Does that mean love is greater than God? God has will, intellect, emotion. Does that mean we should worship these things? Succession/sequence/duration (time) is an aspect of any personal being, including the triune God. It does not mean time is bigger than God or that He is limited by it. It is reality for Him and us.

Knight
June 17th, 2005, 10:16 PM
God is not evil. We are.

Unlike us, God takes responsibility for His creation.

Here are some Bible quotes, and remember we are to take the Bible at face value, like you said:

"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things"

" ... an experience of evil hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby"

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"

" ... I have created the waster to destroy."

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

" ... Thus said the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you ... "

"What? shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." Yikes!

Your all over the map! How does a person become as clueless as you are?

God brings "evil" to the wicked. He smites them. It's God's way of saying "look what I can do to the wicked and no one can stop me". God often judges the wicked and brings wrath to them, which is completely different from masterminding the evil actions that He would eventually punish.

And . . God did in fact create all things that were created therefore He did create the humans that used their freewill for evil.

Therefore none of these verses contradict God's righteous character as you assert. God is responsible for all that is good, yet man and Satan are responsible for all that is wicked.

Claiming that God is an evil mastermind is blasphemous in the most offensive way.


That's kinda arrogant. Since when does God need anyone? God can defend Himself just fine.Did you read the verse? God said.... "Let no one say" I was simply following His command.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:20 PM
Time in according to physicist is not just some mere abstract idea floating in our heads, it is something with physical properties - it is a dimension.

The Genesis account is allegory, but it does provide clues as to the nature of Creation, especially when god brings light into being, thats the foundation of matter. God doesn't need to be created because God is not a creature nor is God a thing.


Theoretical physics is speculative. The simple Hebraic view is that eternity is everlasting duration, not timelessness. Time is not a thing. It is more fundamental than space.

If Genesis is not literal, than either is the truth of man's salvation through Christ in the Gospels. Genesis is the foundation. It does not give scientific details, but it has chronology and is not figurative. God is uncreated Creator. Love, thought, time, etc. are eternal within the Godhead.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:23 PM
No, Orthodox Christian, not many of those around here.


RightGlory is Orthodox. Are you Greek Orthodox?

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:27 PM
Clete, this is the last time I will answer this specific take on the argument.

You have the free will to take your car or not. Just because God observes what choice you pick does not take away your free will decision, he is just observing your free will decision.

Take an example if I watch a documentary on WWII. Just because I know the outcome of the war does not mean that the people in the documentary did not have a free will choice in what they did at that time. I'm just watching what occured.


In this analogy, you are not talking about the future. You are talking about the knowable fixed past. Our future is not written yet and is unknowable as a certainty. If the year 2010 has literally happened and is archived to be viewed in retrospect, your analogy might prove something. WW II is past. 2010 is not yet. Your analogy is flawed. The future is not prerecorded because it has not happened yet.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Clete, here is a better example.

According to Einstein's theories, if I was travelling at the speed of light, I could observe events that are not moving at the speed of light at an accelerated rate and see the future of those events relative to my frame of reference.

I would see people quickly making whatever free will choices they can, but I don't stop them from having free will just because I observe them from my realtive position.


Relativity is not parallel to normal reality. It is theoretical and not applicable to normal history. You are grasping at straws. Einstein had theories, not facts in every area. He was still looking for a unifying theory. The simple, common sense view is that the past is fixed, the future is not yet, and the present is now/reality.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:32 PM
I am an Orthodox Christian, Greek Orthodox Christian variety, we go way back to the 1st century Church, you know The Church, the real Church, the one established by Christ himself not Pope Linus, not Emperor Constantine or Martin Luther or John Calvin or Pat Robertson but the Church established by Christ.


Most denominations claim first century roots. Much of the Greek Orthodox church is nominal and dying today.

godrulz
June 17th, 2005, 10:35 PM
I take it that most of you beleive that God's will is not sovereign. I beleive that everything that occurs is God's will and nothing can go against God's will.


Jesus came to oppose evil in the Gospels, not affirm it as God's will. The warfare model is more biblical than the meticulous blueprint model.

kmoney
June 17th, 2005, 11:03 PM
Clete, and Knight since you seem to be posting again....hope everything is goin well with your house by the way.....


Does God have a specific plan for my life that was formulated eons before I ever existed? No, certainly not.
Ok, you don't believe that....
So does God form plans for your life as you live your life? As you live do you believe that God will have certain things he wants you to do? Or is it basically free and just do whatever you want and serve God in it?

note, by "whatever you want" I am clearly not including immoral things.....

Kevin

Lion
June 18th, 2005, 12:18 AM
Does God know the future?

Yes and no. He knows what He will bring to pass, because He will MAKE those things happen.

He made Jesus be born, and nothing was going to stand in His way. In fact He even flooded the entire world, just so He could bring this to pass.

But, does He know for certain the actions of free will beings? Nope.

novice
June 18th, 2005, 10:43 AM
Ok, you don't believe that....
So does God form plans for your life as you live your life? As you live do you believe that God will have certain things he wants you to do? Or is it basically free and just do whatever you want and serve God in it?
If you lean on Him and not own your own understandings He will help guide your path.

Yet conversely, if you do not lean on Him He will not guide your paths.

In other words, the Holy Spirit is here to help. Help us make good solid decisions, help us to be wise etc. Yet if we reject the Spirit we are not getting the guidance we could be getting.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Ok, you don't believe that....
So does God form plans for your life as you live your life? Uh . . . yeah . . . what novice said. :noid:

kmoney
June 18th, 2005, 11:11 AM
If you lean on Him and not own your own understandings He will help guide your path.

Yet conversely, if you do not lean on Him He will not guide your paths.

In other words, the Holy Spirit is here to help. Help us make good solid decisions, help us to be wise etc. Yet if we reject the Spirit we are not getting the guidance we could be getting.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

Yeah, I already agree with all that, but that wasn't exactly what I was getting at....

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 11:12 AM
Yeah, I already agree with all that, but that wasn't exactly what I was getting at....Oh.

Quasar1011
June 18th, 2005, 11:57 AM
God knows everything knowable that He chooses to know. The future actions of freewill agents is by definition unknowable.

I agreed with everything in your post, except the above statement. In one single timeline, that of this Earth on which we live, the statement could be true. But God is not bound by time. He operates on at least 2 timelines, and perhaps an infinite number of them.

If time is scientifically defined as "that dimension in which cause and effect phenomena operate", then we know God has at least one more timeline. Creation was an effect; God was the cause. The cause emanated in a different (2nd, though really first) dimension of time. Therefore, God has the advantage of not being bound to time the way we are.

Earth was given a timeline that operates in such a way, that time always moves forward. We know this from common sense. We do not know whether or not God's additional timeline(s) is bound in the same way. However, since Earth's timeline had a definite beginning, could it be that it also has an appointed end?

Revelation 10:6 KJV
"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

Certainly, in eternity future, there will be causes and effects. But this passage could mean that time will no longer function according to the physical laws of the universe, regulated by the sun, moon, and Earth's rotation. In fact, there will be no need for such measures, at least to those who are redeemed. Why? Because in the new heavens and earth, the thought will be the act!

I say this, because that is how Jesus operated after His resurrection. He desired to be with His disciples, and it was so; even though He countermanded the physical laws of the universe, by suddenly appearing inside a locked room! Jesus even told us to start training for eternity now, by teaching us such things as: unwarranted anger against a brother is murder; lust after a woman one is not married to is adultery; etc. So if we can control our thoughts in this life, we will be better prepared for the next life, when we will have the mind of Christ, and wield great power with it!

Lastly, we are told that yes, God does know the future, but we cannot understand how He does so:

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Delmar
June 18th, 2005, 12:19 PM
No, you are the one bringing this up and claiming the illogical. It is your responsibility to back it up.




But that's just it. You have to prove that time is something that one would have to "subject" themselves to as if it were a constraining thing rather than a simple concept to express the the measure and passing of events, proceedings, occurances, etc. Like we are claiming time has authority over God or something

Delmar
June 18th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Lets say someone actually has a time machine and travels to the year 2025 and lets say they witness the Kansas City Royals win the World Series (GO ROYALS!!!)...then the person travels back to the present where the Royals are 24-41 (HORRIBLE!). That person knows what will happen in the year 2025. It isn't just a prophesy; they KNOW what will happen. Does that mean the events of 2025 will occur without free will? No, at least I don't think so. Now, my time machine example isn't EXACTLY how God would know the future, but do you at least kinda see where I'm coming from? haha......



You do understand that those of us who believe that God is not “outside of time” also consider time travel a logical absurdity, don't you?

kmoney
June 18th, 2005, 01:13 PM
You do understand that those of us who believe that God is not “outside of time” also consider time travel a logical absurdity, don't you?

What!?! Time travel is absurd? You MUST be joking. And I've wasted all those hours on that stupid time machine....

Delmar
June 18th, 2005, 01:16 PM
I agreed with everything in your post, except the above statement. In one single timeline, that of this Earth on which we live, the statement could be true. But God is not bound by time. He operates on at least 2 timelines, and perhaps an infinite number of them....


Why do you assume that God's time line does not, since creation, run concurrently with Earth's?

Delmar
June 18th, 2005, 01:17 PM
What!?! Time travel is absurd? You MUST be joking. And I've wasted all those hours on that stupid time machine....
I feel your pain.

godrulz
June 18th, 2005, 01:18 PM
What!?! Time travel is absurd? You MUST be joking. And I've wasted all those hours on that stupid time machine....


"Back to the Future" is science fiction, not Scripture.

kmoney
June 18th, 2005, 01:21 PM
"Back to the Future" is science fiction, not Scripture.

It isn't?? well I better stop taking my "Back to the Future" script to church......

intro2faith
June 18th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?

That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 02:24 PM
What!?! Time travel is absurd? You MUST be joking. And I've wasted all those hours on that stupid time machine....Maybe you forgot to put the crystals in your time machine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60361&item=7509399867)?

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 02:25 PM
"Back to the Future" is science fiction, not Scripture.Party pooper! ;)

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?

That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.A meteor is not a freewill agent.

Therefore your analogy is fatally flawed.

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Revelation 10:6 KJV
"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"Sorry, but I will not take anyone seriously who is willing to rape scripture the way you just did simply to make a point. :vomit:

The verse you referenced does not say time will stop! Yet that God is not going to wait any longer in other words God is saying "time is up!"

Which is why other translations accurately translate the verse....

NKJV Revelation 10:6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,

ASV Revelation 10:6 and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:

intro2faith
June 18th, 2005, 02:42 PM
A meteor is not a freewill agent.

Therefore your analogy is fatally flawed.

Ok, let us say a HUMAN is falling down to Earth ;) Just because we know he will hit the Earth(yikes) does that mean we made it happen?

Quasar1011
June 18th, 2005, 03:12 PM
Sorry, but I will not take anyone seriously who is willing to rape scripture the way you just did simply to make a point. :vomit:

The verse you referenced does not say time will stop! Yet that God is not going to wait any longer in other words God is saying "time is up!"

I quoted the King James there. The Bible version I like to study from, is the NIV. And the NIV pretty much says what you just said.

However, I didn't say what you said I said. Let me re-post it:


Revelation 10:6 KJV
"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

Certainly, in eternity future, there will be causes and effects. But this passage could mean that time will no longer function according to the physical laws of the universe, regulated by the sun, moon, and Earth's rotation. In fact, there will be no need for such measures, at least to those who are redeemed. Why? Because in the new heavens and earth, the thought will be the act!

I didn't say "time will stop", in the sense that there will be no cause and effect, or nothing happening. I simply said that the reckoning of time will have to change. We know it will have to change, because of Revelation 21:23
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."

Now, that doesn't say there will be no sun, nor moon, but that they are no longer needed for their original purposes. One of those purposes was light. But another was timekeeping.

Kindly refrain from using words like raping scripture, when you do not read my post closely enough, thank you.

Quasar1011
June 18th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Why do you assume that God's time line does not, since creation, run concurrently with Earth's?

Because God has the ability to move backwards in time. We know this from Scripture.
Chapters 40-48 of the book of Ezekiel, describe the future. In these passages, a "man" tells Ezekiel key things about what is to come. Here is the intorduction, from Ezekiel 40:2-4:

In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, on whose south side were some buildings that looked like a city. He took me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze; he was standing in the gateway with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand. The man said to me, "Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for that is why you have been brought here. Tell the house of Israel everything you see."

Chief among the information the man told to Ezekiel, was the dimensions of the temple. Now, in chapter 11 of the book of Revelation, the Apostle John wrote,

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Did Ezekiel see John, measuring the temple? While both of these passages are introduced as visions, the element of time travel cannot be discounted. In 2nd Corinthians chapter 12, the Apostle Paul wrote,

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

Now, if this was a vision, why did Paul say the man was "caught up to paradise"? Why did Paul not know whether or not this happened "in the body or apart from the body"? Could it be that a vision is God allowing our spirits to travel through time, while our bodies remain on Earth?

Ezekiel said the man he saw had an appearance "like bronze". That is not noteworthy in itself. Certainly, if Ezekiel had seen Jesus, there would have been a more emphatic description of "the man". But since John's vision occurred while on exile on the Isle of Patmos- a place with ample sunshine- it is no wonder that, if the man Ezekiel saw was the Apostle John, that he would have a bronzed appearance. If this were true, perhaps John travelled even in body to the future and back.

Now, if Ezekiel and John were both allowed to witness nearly the same future events, is there any other record of it? Maybe! It is possible that the prophet Daniel saw them both as well! In Daniel chapters 10-12, a vision was given to him. From the description of the "man" who gave Daniel the vision, it was Christ.

"On the twenty-fourth day of the first month, as I was standing on the bank of the great river, the Tigris, I looked up and there before me was a man dressed in linen, with a belt of the finest gold around his waist. His body was like chrysolite, his face like lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and his voice like the sound of a multitude. I, Daniel, was the only one who saw the vision;"

But Daniel later refers to 2 "others", meaning other men.

"Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank. One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?" (Daniel 12:5-6)

Now, if Daniel saw John and Ezekiel talking amongst themselves, while partaking in the vision of the future, this indicates that time travel is possible, if God allows it for His own wise purposes! And a God that could take both John and Ezekiel into the future, certainly took them back to their own time, once the vision was revealed.

Lastly, time is one of the 4 dimensions of the physical universe. I say physical, because string theory asserts there are perhaps 12 total dimensions in our universe. These would be spiritual dimensions where angels and demons dwell; in other words, Heaven and Hell. The same timeline would connect all of them. But, since God is not constrained within our 3 spatial dimensions, nor any number of spatial dimensions, He would not be constrained within any dimensions of time. For in First Kings 8:27, we read,
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!"

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Ok, let us say a HUMAN is falling down to Earth ;) Just because we know he will hit the Earth(yikes) does that mean we made it happen?Freewill does not give us superhuman powers.

Freewill doesn't give us the ability to swoop away from hitting the earth at the last second should we choose to. Gravity does not discriminate. :dead:

Therefore . . . your analogy is fatally flawed.

Knight
June 18th, 2005, 04:28 PM
I quoted the King James there. The Bible version I like to study from, is the NIV. And the NIV pretty much says what you just said.

However, I didn't say what you said I said. Let me re-post it:


I didn't say "time will stop", in the sense that there will be no cause and effect, or nothing happening. I simply said that the reckoning of time will have to change. We know it will have to change, because of Revelation 21:23
"The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp."

Now, that doesn't say there will be no sun, nor moon, but that they are no longer needed for their original purposes. One of those purposes was light. But another was timekeeping.

Kindly refrain from using words like raping scripture, when you do not read my post closely enough, thank you.It makes no difference what version you use, the KJV is fine with me. That wasn't my point.

My point is your raping the verse beyond its intended meaning to fit your theology.

The verse does not mean what you assert - not even close.

Hasan_ibn_Sabah
June 18th, 2005, 04:28 PM
Lastly, time is one of the 4 dimensions of the physical universe. I say physical, because string theory asserts there are perhaps 12 total dimensions in our universe. These would be spiritual dimensions where angels and demons dwell; in other words, Heaven and Hell. The same timeline would connect all of them. But, since God is not constrained within our 3 spatial dimensions, nor any number of spatial dimensions, He would not be constrained within any dimensions of time. For in First Kings 8:27, we read,
"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!"

I agree God is not constrained by anything, being the Creator of everything. I see the powers and dominions as being more a part of the physical part of the universe than the spiritual part, scriptures say that Satan is the God of this Cosmos, whereas Jesus says His Kingdom is not of this Cosmos.

What constrains the Almighty? , the human mind...we with our concepts try to fit God into those concepts, when it comes to that I agree with Wittgenstein that some things are better left unsaid.

godrulz
June 18th, 2005, 04:43 PM
Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?

That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.

This is a predictable cause-effect situation that is knowable. It still does not preclude God from using His free will and zapping the meteor at the last minute resulting in a different future/outcome that was possible, but not certain. The analogy is not relevant to future free will moral contingencies. The fact that your view relies on weak analogies shows that it does not have as much strength as suspected. The alternate view relies on common sense and straightforward revelation in Scripture.

godrulz
June 18th, 2005, 04:44 PM
Ok, let us say a HUMAN is falling down to Earth ;) Just because we know he will hit the Earth(yikes) does that mean we made it happen?


Another human or God could change that outcome. Possible/probable is not certain/actual.

intro2faith
June 18th, 2005, 04:44 PM
This is a predictable cause-effect situation that is knowable. It still does not preclude God from using His free will and zapping the meteor at the last minute resulting in a different future/outcome that was possible, but not certain. The analogy is not relevant to future free will moral contingencies. The fact that your view relies on weak analogies shows that it does not have as much strength as suspected. The alternate view relies on common sense and straightforward revelation in Scripture.

So you're saying that God doesn't know my future any better than I do? Yikes, that's a scary thought!

godrulz
June 18th, 2005, 05:24 PM
So you're saying that God doesn't know my future any better than I do? Yikes, that's a scary thought!


I did not say that. He knows all the contingencies in my life perfectly; I do not. He knows my mind, heart, character, and circumstances better than I do. He knows every atom in my body, so may see cancer starting years before a doctor would. He may know my stocks or mutual funds are about to tank, which could affect my financial opportunities.

God is omnicompetent. His great ability, wisdom, power, love, knowledge, etc. makes Him able to creatively respond to any contingency. Sometimes eternity settles things out. He does not need to know the future nor micromanage things to providentially govern me. We can trust Him based on His character and attributes. Foreknowledge is not necessary to ensure my needs are met. A chessmaster does not have to see the outcome of a game to beat another player. Ability vs foreknowledge!

If you think He must know the future as certain rather than possible, you underestimate His ability/power/competence. Ability, not future exhaustive foreknowledge is the key to His sovereignty.

Delmar
June 18th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?

That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.
Obviously knowing everything about the past and present tells you much about the future
I don't think anyone is arguing that God can't know a lot of future events because he sees them coming. Exaustive foreknowledge is, however, a completely different thing.

nancy
June 19th, 2005, 08:33 AM
Forget it introfaith. They cannot clue in that foreknowledge is not CAUSAL.

Besides, we might not know absolutely that something will happen in the future, but we can come pretty close.

We can know that a kid might have a free will choice to choose to open his/her gifts at Christmas or to leave them alone. It is not hard to guess what the free will choice will be.

kmoney
June 19th, 2005, 08:39 AM
Let's say there is a meteor that is headed directly for Earth. We know that it is going to hit Earth. It hasn't hit yet, but we know it will. Does the fact that we know it's going to hit MAKE it hit?

That is a hypothetical situation, but in essence, it is the same thing with God. Just because He knows that something is going to happen, does not mean that He MAKES it happen, and we have no free will because of it.

Sorry intro2faith, but that analogy doesn't work. It seems we argue for the same side, but, like others have said, this is a flawed analogy. Keep trying....

Kevin

kmoney
June 19th, 2005, 08:41 AM
Maybe you forgot to put the crystals in your time machine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60361&item=7509399867)?

Yes! Thank you! The final piece will be in place soon.....Then I can go back to Jesus' time and ask him face to face if God knows the future to settle this debate... :)

Kevin

Lovejoy
June 19th, 2005, 08:57 AM
If I may interject an enormously trite question (but one that means something to me): is it more important that we ascertain that God knows the future, or insure that the future knows God? And which of the competing views here are most motivating to evangelism?

nancy
June 19th, 2005, 09:49 AM
I think the problem is because of providence, does God know things to come are necessary.

Some things are necessary some things are contingent.

The things that are of necessity will occur that way while things that are contingent will unfold to God's plan by contingency or proximation to the goal because God's mind and end goals can never be frustrated.

nancy
June 19th, 2005, 09:56 AM
So God doesn't force anything on us, but works through our nature to obtain his goals. Remember that the will is appetitive. We are drawn towards something we desire.

So God will draw us towards our goals no matter which infinite ways we choose that particular path.

Mind you God will also give us the choice of following the wrong desire as well such as money or dope etc.

godrulz
June 19th, 2005, 10:32 AM
If I may interject an enormously trite question (but one that means something to me): is it more important that we ascertain that God knows the future, or insure that the future knows God? And which of the competing views here are most motivating to evangelism?


An Open future means our prayers and evangelism can change the course of history. A closed future can breed antinomianism, fatalism, and apathy. Historically, hyper-Calvinism lead to a decline in fervent prayer and persuasive evangelism/revivals. An emphasis on free will, responsibility, and potential to impact destinies led to explosive Church growth.

Lovejoy
June 19th, 2005, 11:19 AM
An Open future means our prayers and evangelism can change the course of history. A closed future can breed antinomianism, fatalism, and apathy. Historically, hyper-Calvinism lead to a decline in fervent prayer and persuasive evangelism/revivals. An emphasis on free will, responsibility, and potential to impact destinies lead to explosive Church growth.
I agree completely. :up:

nancy
June 19th, 2005, 04:48 PM
Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God "predestined" us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no free will). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God's foreknowledge. See, for example, 1Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God." The terms "predestination" and "the elect" alway refer to God's knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two tyes of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1Pet.1:1-2 - teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 - Paul also wries that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but perservering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1Cor. 15:49 - Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the ressurection, when we shall bear the image of man in heaven. These are the people who are predestined to gory.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace not to glory).

Eph 1:5; 1Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that god determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our free will.

Ezek 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our free will, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God does not also predetermine certain people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace needed to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.

2 Peter 3:9 - God is forebearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentence. God's wills all to be saved., but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God's grace.

Matt. 18:14 - Jesus says it is not the will of the father that any should perish, but he has given us free will to choose.

1Tim. 2:4, 2Pet. 3:9, James 1:13 - 14, 1 Cor. 10:13.

All these verses speak of predestination.

godrulz
June 19th, 2005, 05:19 PM
A Greek word study on predestination and foreknowledge is in order (see "God's Strategy in Human History").

One must distinguish corporate election from individual predestination. God does the former, not the latter.

Catholic, Calvinistic, or Arminian presuppositions are a filter for the verses we share in common. Our preconceived ideas may cloud sound exegesis.

nancy
June 19th, 2005, 09:50 PM
I simply said predestination means to know or declare God's foreknowledge in advance.

It contradicts saying God has no forknowledge of the future.

Calvanists hardly share things in common with Catholics.

Are you sure you views are not the view that is filtering?

godrulz
June 19th, 2005, 10:51 PM
Does predestination lead to foreknowledge, or does foreknowledge lead to predestination?

i.e. Does God declare something He intends to bring to pass by His ability leading to a prior knowledge (Is. 46; 48)...or...

Does God someone see and know the future, so He declares or predestines things based on foreknowledge, not ability?

The biblical view is that God predestines and foreknows some things based on His intentions and ability, while other things are open and unsettled.

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 07:21 AM
Okay, I see you guys have been posting like crazy while I've been gone. I'm way short on time so if someone could tell me in a nutshell what I've missed, I'd be very grateful. Also, if there is a specific question or post that someone is wanting me to respond to, can you point it out or repeat the question? Otherwise, I won't be able to get back into this until sometime after work. There's too much to read and not enough time to read it!

Thanks!

Clete

nancy
June 20th, 2005, 07:57 AM
Predestination means God knows the future.

If God "brought something to pass" he would be causal and as such in terms of bringing things that humans do to pass would remove their free will. I have covered necessary and contingency in a last post.

godrulz
June 20th, 2005, 08:52 AM
Predestination means God knows the future.

If God "brought something to pass" he would be causal and as such in terms of bringing things that humans do to pass would remove their free will. I have covered necessary and contingency in a last post.

Foreknowledge means God knows the future. Predestination is one way He can know the future since He decrees and brings it to pass. God brings the first and second coming of Christ to pass by His ability. He thus knows that these events will happen. He is in full control of them. He does not predestine every mundane and moral detail surrounding these events. The things He does not predestine are free choices precluding exhaustive foreknowledge. He correctly knows certainties/actualities differently than possibilities/probabilities.

God predestines that all those who come in repentant faith and trust Christ will be saved and then predestines that they be conformed to His image. He predestines that the corporate Body of Christ will rule and reign with Him. He does not predestine which individuals will be saved or not, or which believer will mature or not. Free will comes into play at the individual level.

Unlike Calvinism, God does not decree and predestine exhaustively/meticulously. Some things are predestined; some things are not (future free will moral contingencies).


An omnicompetent God does not need to predestine/decree/foreknow every detail of the universe to be sovereign. It is also apparent that His intentions/will/grace/desires can be resisted or thwarted at an individual level. The Fall, Hell, and the Holocaust are evidence of this.

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 09:09 AM
Predestination means God knows the future.
You mean IF predestination is true then God would know the future.


If God "brought something to pass" he would be causal and as such in terms of bringing things that humans do to pass would remove their free will. I have covered necessary and contingency in a last post.
This is not true at all. Let's say you decide that you want to buy a car and proceed to go to the car dealership and discuss with a salesman all the things you want in a car and how much money you want to spend. Let's also say that this salesman wants you to spend a whole lot more money for the car than you have indicated that you want to spend. If, at the end of the day, you now own the car and only paid the amount which you wanted to pay for it in the beginning, did you remove the salesmens free will in order to make this happen?

No, you didn't! How is it possible that you can accomplish something without the removal of people's free will and God cannot? Could you explain that to me, because I thought that God was more powerful than you, I thought that God was wiser than we are. Am I wrong or must you concede that God is capable of getting things done which He wants done without having to remove anyone's free will?

Resting in Him,
Clete

nancy
June 20th, 2005, 09:14 AM
We've already covered this. You are confusing predestination with predeterminism. I've already showed you what the word means in the Greek.

I've already told you that God's plans cannot be frustrated. So things that are necessary like Christ's second coming happen necessarily, but contingency happens by contingency, that is approximation to the goals God has for us.

The passages I pointed out already explains free will in terms of Scripture.

I think we've taken this argument as far as we can. Calvinist believe in predeterminism not predestination.

Good Luck!

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 09:42 AM
If God is the Creator of the universe, how can there be any difference between "seeing" the future and "causing" it? Did He not create the future too?

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 10:02 AM
We've already covered this. You are confusing predestination with predeterminism. I've already showed you what the word means in the Greek.

I've already told you that God's plans cannot be frustrated. So things that are necessary like Christ's second coming happen necessarily, but contingency happens by contingency, that is approximation to the goals God has for us.

The passages I pointed out already explains free will in terms of Scripture.

I think we've taken this argument as far as we can. Calvinist believe in predeterminism not predestination.

Good Luck!
You have not shown any such thing, not from what I've read. Perhaps you could point out the post where you did more than simply declare what you beleive.
Saying it doesn't make it so Nancy. Just because you claim the predestination and predeterminism are two different thing doesn't mean they are. You don't get to remake the english language to suit your needs. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and you can't simply talk them away. Predestination and determinism are practically synonimous in this context. And even if they weren't, Calvinism DEFINATELY teaches PREDESTINATION. Do you really think that we are all so stupid? Even if someone here doesn't know the first thing about Calvinism, all it would take is about thirty seconds of searching on the internet to find about four dozen web sites about Calvinism, all of which will tell you that God predestined everything from before time began.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 10:07 AM
If God is the Creator of the universe, how can there be any difference between "seeing" the future and "causing" it? Did He not create the future too?
No, He did not create the future. The future does not exist yet and the past exists no longer. All that exists, exists now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 10:22 AM
No, He did not create the future. The future does not exist yet and the past exists no longer. All that exists, exists now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I agree. But if God is "seeing" the future, then it has to exist, at least to God. And if it exists, then He created it. So the question I was asking is, from God's perspective, what's the difference between "seeing" and "causing"? Is there one?

nancy
June 20th, 2005, 10:32 AM
One final note. Saying God will let something come to pass is saying he will cause it to pass.

It says explicitly in Scripture that God has foreknowledge "predestination." If God knows somethings that will happen in the future, then there is no reason to believe God doesn't know everything perfectly. Knowing is not causing.

We are not going to have a full understanding of predestination as you are trying to view the way God knows with how humans know. Besides, Scripture is SUPERNATURAL revelation from God. God reveals himself to us. Natural human reason cannot fully grasp it.

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 10:34 AM
I agree. But if God is "seeing" the future, then it has to exist, at least to God. And if it exists, then He created it. So the question I was asking is, from God's perspective, what's the difference between "seeing" and "causing"? Is there one?
I see. So you're saying that if God sees the future then it exist and if it exists God must have created it and if He created it then He must have caused it. Yes! That follows! To create something is to cause it. Brilliant. So no matter how you slice it, if God knows the future, He is responsible for it and we are not.

Nice! :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Knowing is not causing.

How can "knowing" not be "causing" when we're talking about God? God is the Creator, right? Not just a passive observer?

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 10:41 AM
One final note. Saying God will let something come to pass is saying he will cause it to pass.
Saying it doesn't make it so, Nancy. Sorry.


It says explicitly in Scripture that God has foreknowledge "predestination."
Again, saying it doesn't make it so.
Chapter and verse please.


If God knows somethings that will happen in the future, then there is no reason to believe God doesn't know everything perfectly.
Do you know what the word "substantiate" means?
Besides, there is a lot of reasons to believe that God doesn't know the future exhaustively. Like unfulfilled prophecy for example, instances of which I have already cited. Whould you like for me to list them again or would you just ignore them again?


Knowing is not causing.
Philosphizer has made a pretty good argument that this is not so if the one doing the knowing is God. But aside from that, no one has suggested otherwise.


We are not going to have a full understanding of predestination as you are trying to view the way God knows with how humans know. Besides, Scripture is SUPERNATURAL revelation from God. God reveals himself to us. Natural human reason cannot fully grasp it.
Thank you for conceding that your theology is irrational and cannot be understood or made sense of.

Resting in Him,
Clete

nancy
June 20th, 2005, 12:16 PM
We are just going in circles with this argument so lets agree to disagree.

You should not get pure human philosophy mixed up with theology. That is what is happening here. Because the mind of God is not conceivable to humans, you are trying to limit God to the limits of human reason. Human reason is limited by our own sense perception and subjectivity.

This is a problem with the Protestant faith in general. They have boxed God into some abstract after thought of the mind instead of a living mystery that is with us now.

My post #226 has all the passages from scripture for predestination you need.

P.S. You were the one who started the whole causal argument with your causal determinism post.

Good Luck!

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 12:35 PM
We are just going in circles with this argument so lets agree to disagree.

You should not get pure human philosophy mixed up with theology. That is what is happening here. Because the mind of God is not conceivable to humans, you are trying to limit God to the limits of human reason. Human reason is limited by our own sense perception and subjectivity.

This is a problem with the Protestant faith in general. They have boxed God into some abstract after thought of the mind instead of a living mystery that is with us now.

Good Luck!
No one is saying that they have God completely figured out and it has precisely nothing to do with Protestantism. Could you explain how it would be invalid of me to turn around and accuse you of being the one who is putting God is a box of enigmatic mystery and confusion? Why is your accusation any more valid that one that I might to the contrary? You can't answer that question, can you? You can't because there is no answer. The fact is I can and if I did, I would not be anymore valid or invalid that your accusation even though it is precisely the opposite. You know what that means, Nancy? That means your accusation is meaningless.

Further, with your position, as you've stated it here, you could literally believe anything at all! If one's beliefs do not have to be substantiated then what's to stop some crackpot from teaching whatever he wants to teach? God is not a God of confusion and incoherence but of order and reason. "Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord. But you want to throw reason to the wind in favor of your theology. And I'm here to tell you that you don't have that option. The very word 'theology' means the logos of the theos, the logic of God. Theology that is illogical is an oxymoron; you cannot have one without the other.

Further still, I have said nothing that you can demonstrate to be unbiblical and so you are lost on both counts. You have all but admitted that my theology is logical and you are either unable or unwilling to refute it Biblically. So what are you left? Your own personal preferences, right? You prefer to believe what you've been taught rather than what can be demonstrated to be both Biblical and of sound reason. That's a sin, Nancy. You should take courage and repent. Trust God, trust His word, let those who teach you be damned. Do right and risk the consequences. You won't be sorry you did.

Resting in Him,
Clete

nancy
June 20th, 2005, 01:03 PM
Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Logic and Reason are not things that come in several different flavors depending on where you are at the time. They are not specific answers to questions. They are simply the process that we use to approach Truth. God's logic and our logic are not two different things. God created that process as a means of approaching and knowing Him. We may be missing some of the details and premises to pour into that process, but that doesn't mean that the process itself is somehow flawed simply because we use it.

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?

Does "predestination" necessarily refer to individuals?

Clete
June 20th, 2005, 01:16 PM
Clete, Scripture mentions God's PREDESTINATION specifically and that he knows who will be saved and who will not.

No offense, but am I going to believe Scripture or you?
Scripture, always!

Chapter and verse please.

intro2faith
June 20th, 2005, 01:34 PM
How can "knowing" not be "causing" when we're talking about God? God is the Creator, right? Not just a passive observer?
Ok, so God knows what I'm planning to do in 3 hours, does that mean He caused me to do it? Knowing is NOT causing.

philosophizer
June 20th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Ok, so God knows what I'm planning to do in 3 hours, does that mean He caused me to do it? Knowing is NOT causing.

Did God see that scene that takes place 3 hours from now when He created the universe? If so, He must have created that scene as well. If so, how is His knowing the scene any different from His causing the scene?