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allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 09:34 AM
I believe that if Jesus died on the cross, and even if he didn't, even if the story is a metaphor, it is a representation of god reconciling himself to us. I believe god feels badly for the earthly, physical situation we're in, I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions, and because he is good, cannot destroy us. I believe that the death of jesus was an act to help him better understand our pain, not to save us, but so that he could experience what we do, so he could be side by side with us and relate and let us know he is sorry for what he did.

I think god owes us big time.

Discuss.

Justin (Wiccan)
May 6th, 2005, 09:40 AM
I believe that if Jesus died on the cross, and even if he didn't, even if the story is a metaphor, it is a representation of god reconciling himself to us. I believe god feels badly for the earthly, physical situation we're in, I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions, and because he is good, cannot destroy us. I believe that the death of jesus was an act to help him better understand our pain, not to save us, but so that he could experience what we do, so he could be side by side with us and relate and let us know he is sorry for what he did.

I think god owes us big time.

Discuss.

OK. You're a wingnut.

:chuckle:

Seriously, there is no way to come to such a conclusion from anything remotely approaching an accurate reading of the Christian scriptures, therefore I assume you're also drawing on other sources of information. Would you care to discuss those other sources?

Justin

PureX
May 6th, 2005, 09:43 AM
It has a kind of twisted logic, but is far too anthropomorphic for me. Whatever "God" is, I doubt that God is even remotely this similar to us in thought or action.

Granite
May 6th, 2005, 09:44 AM
Yeah. I see what smiles is saying but I think whatever deity or ethereal "force" there may be, it's unlikely to be able to relate directly to humanity.

Poly
May 6th, 2005, 09:47 AM
I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions, and because he is good, cannot destroy us.
I think god owes us big time.

Discuss.

God did destroyed the whole Earth during Noah's day because He is good. He could have let the world go on forever in the pure evil state it was in, with nobody ever being able to experience Him because of their great wickedness or He could be merciful and wipe those out at the time, starting again with another generation.


I believe that the death of jesus was an act to help him better understand our pain, not to save us, but so that he could experience what we do, so he could be side by side with us and relate and let us know he is sorry for what he did.

I think god owes us bigtime.

What does He have to be sorry for? For allowing man to be born having the opportunity to experience Him? Man is the one who decides to reject Him. I'm sure He is sorry about that but not because He had anything to do with it. God doesn't owe man anything. Man makes His own choice. God allows man to deal with the consequences of those choices.

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 09:48 AM
Just a theory, just throwing rocks at the beehive as I heard one person call it.

But think about it, we're in an existence that many people, including someone as happy and delightful as myself, could describe as mediocre at best. Is there anything (and leave the bible out of this for a moment) about reality that would lead anyone to believe that we owe god anything? Really, at any moment you could die, heart attack, car accident, disease, gun shot, natural gas leak, fires, natural disasters, etc.

Plus, life is painful. Now, what do we have that we should really have to praise god for? Why do we have to live this painful life, and give him thanks for it, because if we don't we'll go to hell? And if the christian god was so regretful of creating us so, but couldn't destroy us, than maybe, just maybe, if we're his image, and he conversely is our image, than just maybe he feels guilty too. He can feel wrath, love, jealousy, regret, can't he feel guilt? Can't he feel sorry for us? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility? What if he feels guilty about creating us in this sorry state?

I'm just asking for people to think outside of the box/book, to explore possibilities.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 09:49 AM
There was a camp a friend worked at.
It was to teach leadership.

One of the challenges was to get 20 people on a cement block that is only 2 ft wide.

People come up with ideas, they don't work, they start yelling at each other. They say, "This is impossible. Tell us what to do." The instructor simply restates what the objective is.

Finally, after they realize that fighting gets them nowhere, and that listening to everyone is beneficial, because they might have the answer, they came up with a very difficult solution.

Everyone feels a sense of accomplishment, but they walk away, realizing that these things are possible if they work together.

That's how I see the Earth. Like a big challenge, and we have to figure out how to make it work.

Caledvwlch
May 6th, 2005, 09:51 AM
Just a theory, just throwing rocks at the beehive as I heard one person call it.

But think about it, we're in an existence that many people, including someone as happy and delightful as myself, could describe as mediocre at best. Is there anything (and leave the bible out of this for a moment) about reality that would lead anyone to believe that we owe god anything? Really, at any moment you could die, heart attack, car accident, disease, gun shot, natural gas leak, fires, natural disasters, etc.

Plus, life is painful. Now, what do we have that we should really have to praise god for? Why do we have to live this painful life, and give him thanks for it, because if we don't we'll go to hell? And if the christian god was so regretful of creating us so, but couldn't destroy us, than maybe, just maybe, if we're his image, and he conversely is our image, than just maybe he feels guilty too. He can feel wrath, love, jealousy, regret, can't he feel guilt? Can't he feel sorry for us? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility? What if he feels guilty about creating us in this sorry state?

I'm just asking for people to think outside of the box/book, to explore possibilities.
I'm smelling what you're steppin' in, smiles. As far as speculation goes, it's a pretty cool idea. And I do love to speculate...

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 09:51 AM
Just a theory, just throwing rocks at the beehive as I heard one person call it.

But think about it, we're in an existence that many people, including someone as happy and delightful as myself, could describe as mediocre at best. Is there anything (and leave the bible out of this for a moment) about reality that would lead anyone to believe that we owe god anything? Really, at any moment you could die, heart attack, car accident, disease, gun shot, natural gas leak, fires, natural disasters, etc.

Plus, life is painful. Now, what do we have that we should really have to praise god for? Why do we have to live this painful life, and give him thanks for it, because if we don't we'll go to hell? And if the christian god was so regretful of creating us so, but couldn't destroy us, than maybe, just maybe, if we're his image, and he conversely is our image, than just maybe he feels guilty too. He can feel wrath, love, jealousy, regret, can't he feel guilt? Can't he feel sorry for us? Why is it so out of the realm of possibility? What if he feels guilty about creating us in this sorry state?

I'm just asking for people to think outside of the box/book, to explore possibilities.

Hm.

Technically, children owe their parents nothing. They didn't ask to be born. It was a decision of the parents. But disrespectful children, children who live from a 'You owe me big time' attitude, are never really happy. When they realize that giving is even more joyful than receiving, they start to be prepared to have their own children.

Justin (Wiccan)
May 6th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Just a theory, just throwing rocks at the beehive as I heard one person call it.

So in other words, it's not "I believe" so much as "Here's an idea ... let's play with it for a while?" Then why didn't you say that, you loon? :p


But think about it, we're in an existence that many people, including someone as happy and delightful as myself, could describe as mediocre at best. Is there anything (and leave the bible out of this for a moment) about reality that would lead anyone to believe that we owe god anything? Really, at any moment you could die, heart attack, car accident, disease, gun shot, natural gas leak, fires, natural disasters, etc.

"Mediocre at best?" Come on, allsmiles ... that's too pesimistic for me.


Plus, life is painful. Now, what do we have that we should really have to praise god for? Why do we have to live this painful life, and give him thanks for it, because if we don't we'll go to hell?

:shrug: Life is painful. It's also pleasant. Life is a mixture of good and bad, because unalloyed pleasure is dissatisfying.

Justin

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 09:57 AM
God did destroyed the whole Earth during Noah's day because He is good. He could have let the world go on forever in the pure evil state it was in, with nobody ever being able to experience Him because of their great wickedness or He could be merciful and wipe those out at the time, starting again with another generation.

God is so compassionate that he killed everyone.

Sorry, you're completely detached from reality. Tough love like this doesn't fly in the "real" world honey. Swing and miss, try again.


What does He have to be sorry for?

Uh, because life can suck really badly for a lot people. Because life is pain and if anyone tells you otherwise they're selling something. Because if he were so powerful than he would have done a better job of creating us, but he didn't, he did a mediocre job at best and we're stuck with the mediocre consequences of his creativity. We have to live with it, he doesn't. We have to live and die, he doesn't.


For allowing man to be born having the opportunity to experience Him?

No, he did give us the capacity to search our souls and discover him, that is nice, and that's how I came across this theory.


Man is the one who decides to reject Him. I'm sure He is sorry about that but not because He had anything to do with it.

This conclusion only works if one presupposes the premise is true. It's entirely subjective and only works if you believe it.


God doesn't owe man anything. Man makes His own choice. God allows man to deal with the consequences of those choices.

I agree with the second half, that man has to deal with the consequences of his actions, but as for god not owing us, I disagree. I don't think there's anything in reality that points to us owing god. Like I said, leave the bible out of this, if you're right than you don't even need the bible.

Poly
May 6th, 2005, 10:08 AM
God is so compassionate that he killed everyone.

Sorry, you're completely detached from reality. Tough love like this doesn't fly in the "real" world honey. Swing and miss, try again.

So you think He should have just let man go forever in his wickedness. Real nice attitude you have there.




Uh, because life can suck really badly for a lot people. Because life is pain and if anyone tells you otherwise they're selling something.
Because if he were so powerful than he would have done a better job of creating us, but he didn't, he did a mediocre job at best and we're stuck with the mediocre consequences of his creativity. We have to live with it, he doesn't. We have to live and die, he doesn't.


If life is so bad it's because man chose for it to be this way.

Why don't you try getting over being so mad at God because He didn't preprogram everybody to be nice. If He did, and everybody loved him because He made them to do so, is that really love? It isn't really love unless you have the choice not to. If parents had the option to pre-program their children into loving them, would that be a healthy thing to do? What parent would want the love of their kid because they were programmed to do so? I want to be a good parent to my kids, teaching them what's right so that they make right choices on their own and love me because they want to and because they choose to.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 10:17 AM
I think god owes us big time.And just what does He owe us?

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 10:26 AM
So you think He should have just let man go forever in his wickedness. Real nice attitude you have there.


How could all of civilization be pure evil?
New York City has a lot of crime.
Does that mean that everyone who lives there is pure evil, and we should kill them all?

That's never made sense to me.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 10:40 AM
How could all of civilization be pure evil?
New York City has a lot of crime.
Does that mean that everyone who lives there is pure evil, and we should kill them all?

That's never made sense to me.Maybe because your comparison is flawed? Apparently prior to the flood the entire earth had become wicked (minus a select few).

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 10:42 AM
A baby was evil?

Come on...

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 10:48 AM
A baby was evil?

Come on...Apparently the entire bloodline was endanger of becoming corrupt....

Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

So then God thwarted the plans of evil by saving the bloodline through Noah.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 10:52 AM
[/b]6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
.

Like this:
God regretting for making man?
The all knowing, all seeing God, didn't know it would turn out like this?

Doesn't that make you question?

And how can an entire blood line, not that far away from A&E, be all evil?
How were they to determine right and wrong if they didn't have a bible, or even the 10 Commandments?

Hasn't any of this ever crossed your mind?

Emo
May 6th, 2005, 10:55 AM
I think god owes us big time.



This may be the most ridiculous, blasphemous statement that I have ever heard.

:mad:

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 10:59 AM
Like this:
God regretting for making man?
The all knowing, all seeing God, didn't know it would turn out like this?God knows everything KNOWABLE. He chooses NOT to know the future actions of His creation because He wanted to create us in a way that we had our own freewill. He wanted to create us in a way so not to coerce our love for Him.


Doesn't that make you question?It would make me SERIOUSLY question a person who promoted calvinistic theology. I do not.


And how can an entire blood line, not that far away from A&E, be all evil?
How were they to determine right and wrong if they didn't have a bible, or even the 10 Commandments?Apparently it was more complicated than that. It appears that the devil and his cohorts were making a serious push to thwart God's plan of eventually redeeming mankind. God won.

The spiritually battle is deeper than we know on the surface.


Hasn't any of this ever crossed your mind?Yes.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 11:05 AM
It would make me SERIOUSLY question a person who promoted calvinistic theology. I do not.
. :Poly:
I had to go look up Calvinism :)


I know I'm going to regret this, but what, specifically is your problem with calvinism.
In a nutshell. And my advance apology for ever having asked the question. Just trying to understand your theology.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 11:07 AM
:Poly:
I had to go look up Calvinism :)


I know I'm going to regret this, but what, specifically is your problem with calvinism.
In a nutshell. And my advance apology for ever having asked the question. Just trying to understand your theology.No problem.

But maybe this question should wait for now.

I want to see how you respond on the other thread (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=749291&postcount=24).

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 11:13 AM
God won.


The good news: God won.
The bad news: there were only 8 people remaining.

How did God "win"?
If God destroyed al the evil people, Satan won by a longshot, taking all of those souls to hell, right?

And come to think of it, God also destroyed the other evil monkeys, and sheep, and giraffes, and llamas, etc.

Granite
May 6th, 2005, 11:35 AM
This may be the most ridiculous, blasphemous statement that I have ever heard.

:mad:

Aw come on, you've heard worse. ;)

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 11:38 AM
So you think He should have just let man go forever in his wickedness. Real nice attitude you have there.

What you call wickedness I call natural. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way we are, I do think that some of the things humans are capable of doing are wrong. There's a difference and I think it's significant. I like my attitude a lot, I think very highly of humanity, you denegrate it. Why are you so ashamed of your nature? If god didn't want you to be this way he wouldn't have allowed it or preordained it or whatever.


If life is so bad it's because man chose for it to be this way.

Life is this bad because this is the way life is, we as humans simply react to the environment.


Why don't you try getting over being so mad at God because He didn't preprogram everybody to be nice. If He did, and everybody loved him because He made them to do so, is that really love?

I'm not angry with god, I think he's great. And no, that wouldn't be love, and the fact that reality dictates that we have the ability to do as we wish is evidence enough that god gives us whatever leeway we would like. Frankly I think that that is the least he could do.


It isn't really love unless you have the choice not to. If parents had the option to pre-program their children into loving them, would that be a healthy thing to do? What parent would want the love of their kid because they were programmed to do so?

Good point, I agree with you. If god wants us to love him despite the mediocre and painful environment that we have to experience, than maybe he should try relating to us, like, by experiencing the pain himself. Wait! According to your bible he did! Jesus and god are one in the same and jesus suffered tremendous pain and torment.

What's so far fetched in believing that it was a gesture on god's part to experience what we have to go through to relate to us, to know our pain and to suffer in order to make things right between us.


I want to be a good parent to my kids, teaching them what's right so that they make right choices on their own and love me because they want to and because they choose to.

You sound like an excellent parent. I know good parents because of my own.

Life is painful and god doesn't have to experience it. You believe in a god that places us here, allows horrible things to happen to us, and by the way, if you don't kiss up to him he'll let you go to hell after you die as if life wasn't hard enough. Why? For his own glory. Reality and nature do not point to this, the only thing that indicates that god's nature is this sadistic is the bible.

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 12:07 PM
Knight, I believe god owes us help when we ask for it, room to breath and a comfortable place to go when we die, even if that means our personalities are annihilated, though I don't believe that that is what will happen. I believe the myth of jesus points to life after death, I see it in jesus, mithra, even the setting and rising of the sun. I don't think it's far fetched to believe that god manifested himself in the form of jesus to experience the pains and joys of life so that he might relate to us and in a small way, share our suffering and joy as a peace offering to us.

Justin (Wiccan)
May 6th, 2005, 12:20 PM
God knows everything KNOWABLE. He chooses NOT to know the future actions of His creation because He wanted to create us in a way that we had our own freewill. He wanted to create us in a way so not to coerce our love for Him.

Greetings, Knight,

As much as I disliked Calvininstic theology before I left the Church, I do have to point out that Jer 1:5 gives some real difficulties to your view. However, I don't want to disrupt the current convo into a Calvinist-Arminianist debate, so....

Justin

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 12:26 PM
I just want to take this moment to thank everyone for their input.

Poly
May 6th, 2005, 12:37 PM
Greetings, Knight,

As much as I disliked Calvininstic theology before I left the Church, I do have to point out that Jer 1:5 gives some real difficulties to your view.

Not really. This passage speaks of God knowing Jeremiah before he was born. There are certain things that God purposed to come about or to know but they are few. He can do this and still allow creation to run it's course giving man the ability to make his own choices without being the kind of God that's found in Calvinistic theology.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 01:10 PM
The good news: God won.
The bad news: there were only 8 people remaining.

How did God "win"?
If God destroyed al the evil people, Satan won by a longshot, taking all of those souls to hell, right?

And come to think of it, God also destroyed the other evil monkeys, and sheep, and giraffes, and llamas, etc.You are now proving my point about your intentions here on TOL.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 01:12 PM
Greetings, Knight,

As much as I disliked Calvininstic theology before I left the Church, I do have to point out that Jer 1:5 gives some real difficulties to your view. No, actually it doesn't.

Is it possible you know very little (if any) about my "view"?

Justin (Wiccan)
May 6th, 2005, 01:15 PM
There are certain things that God purposed to come about or to know but they are few.

This view is a bit out of the norm for "average" Christianity--not abberant or heretical, just a bit odd. However, I've already hijacked the thread enough ... I really didn't want to disrupt it beyond the brief mention.

Sorry about that.

Justin

Poly
May 6th, 2005, 01:17 PM
This view is a bit out of the norm for "average" Christianity--not abberant or heretical, just a bit odd. However, I've already hijacked the thread enough ... I really didn't want to disrupt it beyond the brief mention.

Sorry about that.

Justin

You might want to check out some of the threads in the "Dispensation" forum. There are a lot in there for and against Calvinism that you might find interesting.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 01:30 PM
Sorry about that.It's all good. :)

Crow
May 6th, 2005, 01:52 PM
This view is a bit out of the norm for "average" Christianity--not abberant or heretical, just a bit odd. However, I've already hijacked the thread enough ... I really didn't want to disrupt it beyond the brief mention.

Sorry about that.

Justin

The majority of "average" Christians have very little knowledge of the Bible. They learn piecemeal platitudes and cannot see the forest nor the trees--they just keep staring blankly at the map waiting for the truth to jump out and identify itself in bumper sticker sized bytes.

Agape4Robin
May 6th, 2005, 01:54 PM
The majority of "average" Christians have very little knowledge of the Bible. They learn piecemeal platitudes and cannot see the forest nor the trees--they just keep staring blankly at the map waiting for the truth to jump out and identify itself in bumper sticker sized bytes.
:BRAVO:

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 01:56 PM
The majority of "average" Christians have very little knowledge of the Bible. They learn piecemeal platitudes and cannot see the forest nor the trees--they just keep staring blankly at the map waiting for the truth to jump out and identify itself in bumper sticker sized bytes.

So what would be the solution? How do you better educate christians on the bible, especially with so many conflicting sects and denominations?

Little off topic, but that's all right.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 02:03 PM
You are now proving my point about your intentions here on TOL.

It's an honest question.

There were, who knows? Thousands of people on earth, all of them evil except Noah and his wife and kids.

Satan: 1000
God: 8

How did God win?
Isn't Satan's goal to win souls away from God?
Killing someone isn't a way to win them to heaven?

In my opinion, if the sacrifice of Jesus did happen, that is actually how God won - the act of trying to kill Christ was actually the very thing that saved everyone.
Do, Christ actually conquered death, whether we want to believe it or not. It's just a matter of time before we find God now.

But if you walked in the Pearly Gates and God said, "look! We won! 20 People!!" wouldn't you kind of think of that as a huge loss?

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 02:16 PM
It's an honest question.

There were, who knows? Thousands of people on earth, all of them evil except Noah and his wife and kids.

Satan: 1000
God: 8

How did God win?God thwarted the attempt to corrupt the plan of redemption for mankind.

Isn't Satan's goal to win souls away from God?
Killing someone isn't a way to win them to heaven?Apparently the earth had become so wicked that wiping them out was the best solution.

You can reject the story if you like but certainly it isn't illogical or irrational.


In my opinion, if the sacrifice of Jesus did happen, that is actually how God won - the act of trying to kill Christ was actually the very thing that saved everyone.
Do, Christ actually conquered death, whether we want to believe it or not. It's just a matter of time before we find God now.

But if you walked in the Pearly Gates and God said, "look! We won! 20 People!!" wouldn't you kind of think of that as a huge loss?Actually you said "actually" too many times for me to understand your point.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Semanitics? Really? I used actually twice. That's extremely petty.

This is why I think people here don't really want to answer, nor care about the unsaved.

My point is, that unless Christ saved us all (which is a radical viewpoint), he hasn't won. If the devil can destroy or mislead the majority of souls, the devil has won. That is the point of the devil - to lead as many souls away from God as he can. If he leads more away than are brought to God, how has God one? Sure, God is the last one standing, but he's also lost the souls he loves.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Semanitics? Really? I used actually twice. That's extremely petty.I count three uses but hey.... who's counting?


This is why I think people here don't really want to answer, nor care about the unsaved.ACTUALLY - I think we are proving rather nicely another point. :)


My point is, that unless Christ saved us all (which is a radical viewpoint), he hasn't won. If the devil can destroy or mislead the majority of souls, the devil has won. That is the point of the devil - to lead as many souls away from God as he can. If he leads more away than are brought to God, how has God one? Sure, God is the last one standing, but he's also lost the souls he loves.Leading souls AWAY from Christ is NOT the point of the devil (it may be what he does but that isn't his intended purpose) therefore your point fails before it starts and there is no reason to consider any further.

Next!!!

allsmiles
May 6th, 2005, 02:56 PM
Hold that thought Knight, what is the point of the devil?

beanieboy
May 6th, 2005, 03:01 PM
Hold that thought Knight, what is the point of the devil?

My question as well.

I was taught that it was a battle for souls between God and Satan. That was why it was so important to go out and get people "saved" and win them to God's side.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 03:40 PM
Hold that thought Knight, what is the point of the devil?Well... the devil is/was an angel who fell.

A good case can be made that he (the devil) was an angel sent to be as a "protector" in the garden. Yet, freewill is a VERY POWERFUL force. Satan used his freewill to turn from God as did many other angels.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 03:41 PM
My question as well.

I was taught that it was a battle for souls between God and Satan. That was why it was so important to go out and get people "saved" and win them to God's side.It's important to get people saved so that they don't spend eternity in hell with the burden of their sin upon them.

The devil is just one of many forces pulling men away from God.

Lovejoy
May 6th, 2005, 03:51 PM
It's important to get people saved so that they don't spend eternity in hell with the burden of their sin upon them.

The devil is just one of many forces pulling men away from God.
Yeah, and even "battle" might not be the right word. It implies that God and Satan are at some kind of physical combat. The only "battle" in his the hearts of men, as the true victory has already occured, unless I am badly mistaken.

Balder
May 6th, 2005, 03:52 PM
In the essay, “Jesus, Man of Sin: Toward a New Christology in the Global Era,” Buddhist Soho Machida writes:

The mind is like a haunted house that we have not yet completely explored. The underworld of human nature is unfathomably deep. Jesus shared this darkness with us. Let me quote one of my favorite parables in the Bible: “The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst…Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, ‘Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground” (John 8:3-8). It is strange that no explanation is given about what Jesus was writing with his finger on the ground. In that silent gesture, was he not perhaps revealing an awareness within himself of the same evil nature as the woman’s? For one who shares in the common awareness of sin, it is impossible to judge another. Jesus’ attitude of love and tolerance toward weak and sinful ordinary people may originate not necessarily in his sacredness, but rather in his bond of sympathy with all other human beings as a Man of Sin. (63-64)

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 04:40 PM
beanie... I will meet you here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20072).

Agape4Robin
May 6th, 2005, 04:46 PM
Yeah, and even "battle" might not be the right word. It implies that God and Satan are at some kind of physical combat. The only "battle" in his the hearts of men, as the true victory has already occured, unless I am badly mistaken.
:LoJo: :thumb:

Agape4Robin
May 6th, 2005, 04:48 PM
In the essay, “Jesus, Man of Sin: Toward a New Christology in the Global Era,” Buddhist Soho Machida writes:

The mind is like a haunted house that we have not yet completely explored. The underworld of human nature is unfathomably deep. Jesus shared this darkness with us. Let me quote one of my favorite parables in the Bible: “The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst…Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, ‘Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.’ And once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground” (John 8:3-8). It is strange that no explanation is given about what Jesus was writing with his finger on the ground. In that silent gesture, was he not perhaps revealing an awareness within himself of the same evil nature as the woman’s? For one who shares in the common awareness of sin, it is impossible to judge another. Jesus’ attitude of love and tolerance toward weak and sinful ordinary people may originate not necessarily in his sacredness, but rather in his bond of sympathy with all other human beings as a Man of Sin. (63-64)
:kookoo:

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 04:51 PM
Yeah, and even "battle" might not be the right word. It implies that God and Satan are at some kind of physical combat. The only "battle" in his the hearts of men, as the true victory has already occured, unless I am badly mistaken.It is a spititual battle and I think battle is a great word for it.

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See his banner go!
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

At the sign of triumph
Satan’s host doth flee;
On, then, Christian soldiers,
On to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver
At the shout of praise;
Brothers, lift your voices,
Loud your anthems raise!
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

Like a mighty army
Moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading
Where the saints have trod;
We are not divided;
All one body we,
One in hope and doctrine,
One in charity.
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

Onward, then, ye people,
Join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices
In the triumph song;
Glory, laud, and honor,
Unto Christ the King;
This thro’ countless ages
Men and angels sing.
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

Lovejoy
May 6th, 2005, 05:03 PM
It is a spititual battle and I think battle is a great word for it.

Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
Christ, the royal Master,
Leads against the foe;
Forward into battle,
See his banner go!
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

At the sign of triumph
Satan’s host doth flee;
On, then, Christian soldiers,
On to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver
At the shout of praise;
Brothers, lift your voices,
Loud your anthems raise!
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

Like a mighty army
Moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading
Where the saints have trod;
We are not divided;
All one body we,
One in hope and doctrine,
One in charity.
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!

Onward, then, ye people,
Join our happy throng,
Blend with ours your voices
In the triumph song;
Glory, laud, and honor,
Unto Christ the King;
This thro’ countless ages
Men and angels sing.
Onward, Christian soldiers,
Marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus
Going on before!
That is, of course, a lovely song, and a profound metaphor for what we face. My dislike for the term "battle" (though for some reason I often call it "spiritual warfare") is when it is used as a reference between God and Satan (as it was in the above post). It is not a battle between them, as such, as God cannot lose to Satan. There is no real fight there. The term battle always seems to imply some kind of polar conflict between relatively equal forces of good and evil. As well, whatever conflict was there was essentially settled with Christ. It is a battle between man and Satan, and that one we can lose if we do not choose Christ. Do you see what I am saying? Even in the Revelation the fight is, in essense, to settle who the last soul to come to Christ will be, as Satan is beaten before the fight even begins.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 05:10 PM
That is, of course, a lovely song, and a profound metaphor for what we face. My dislike for the term "battle" (though for some reason I often call it "spiritual warfare") is when it is used as a reference between God and Satan (as it was in the above post). It is not a battle between them, as such, as God cannot lose to Satan. There is no real fight there.Wow... I really disagree.

Just because God isn't going to lose doesn't mean there isn't a battle. In fact... Satan has won many skirmishes in the battle.


The term battle always seems to imply some kind of polar conflict between relatively equal forces of good and evil.The US Army is battling the IRAQI forces yet they aren't equal in power.

Lovejoy
May 6th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Wow... I really disagree.

Just because God isn't going to lose doesn't mean there isn't a battle. In fact... Satan has won many skirmishes in the battle.

The US Army is battling the IRAQI forces yet they aren't equal in power.
That's okay. It is not as if I don't see it as a struggle, or that there will not be losses (there already have been losses), I just don't prefer the images that the word brings. I even concede that the day to day Christian life is a spiritual fight. I am just looking for words that will describe the Christian life without giving the wrong impression of the nature of the conflict. Christ, for sure, has already won, but you and I can still lose. I always worry that saying "battle" gives non-believers the idea that Christ can still lose. Certainly, I could be wrong about this.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 05:26 PM
I am just looking for words that will describe the Christian life without giving the wrong impression of the nature of the conflict.All the more reason to use a fitting term like "battle". :)

Lovejoy
May 6th, 2005, 05:33 PM
All the more reason to use a fitting term like "battle". :)
:) Admit it, I worry too much! Picking my words is like my wife picking clothes, takes forever am never satisfied. Ah well...To Battle, Christian Soldiers!!

julie21
May 6th, 2005, 05:52 PM
...I see it this way... that though the major battle has been won by Christ, we are the one's still in the field maintaining the vigilant watch over each other and those not yet in the fold, as satan doesn't yet realise the main campaign battle is over, and he will forever keep on attacking the foot soldiers to get as many casualties notched up on his belt as he can.Therefore we all need to pick up and put on the Armour that God has given us to use in this campaign, to protect ourselves against his insurgent skirmishes.

Lovejoy
May 6th, 2005, 06:57 PM
...I see it this way... that though the major battle has been won by Christ, we are the one's still in the field maintaining the vigilant watch over each other and those not yet in the fold, as satan doesn't yet realise the main campaign battle is over, and he will forever keep on attacking the foot soldiers to get as many casualties notched up on his belt as he can.Therefore we all need to pick up and put on the Armour that God has given us to use in this campaign, to protect ourselves against his insurgent skirmishes.
I have no prolem with that. My question was never with Christian perspectives though, but rather with the world's perspective.

justchristian
May 6th, 2005, 07:19 PM
In the battle of heaven and earth I have always concidered Satan to be in the know that victory is out of reach. I don't think he fights with the strategy to win but to take as many of us down with him. He's almost like a corned animal taking one last swipe at the world before being cast into the lake of fire. This metaphor however is incomplete as a animal acts out of fear while satan acts out of hate.When i think about Satan taking that last swipe at earth i concider the overwhelming ultimate glory in God's victory and Satan's swipe is but a pebble on a gravel road. Anyway justa thought..i am new at this whole forum thing.

Knight
May 6th, 2005, 08:17 PM
:) Admit it, I worry too much! Picking my words is like my wife picking clothes, takes forever am never satisfied. Ah well...To Battle, Christian Soldiers!!:BRAVO:

SOTK
May 6th, 2005, 08:30 PM
I believe god feels badly for the earthly, physical situation we're in, I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions,
I think god owes us big time.

This statement implies God is stupid. Everything in the universe is balanced. It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things. No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!

Agape4Robin
May 6th, 2005, 10:02 PM
This statement implies God is stupid. Everything in the universe is balanced. It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things. No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!
Well said! :bannana:

Lighthouse
May 7th, 2005, 03:12 PM
God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

Agape4Robin
May 7th, 2005, 03:39 PM
God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.
:BRAVO:

Lovejoy
May 7th, 2005, 03:49 PM
This may be the most ridiculous, blasphemous statement that I have ever heard.

:mad:
It is just one more entry into the growing list of statements on TOL meant to inspire non-productive discussion by offending the Christian core of the site. Efforts to annoy and put Christians on the defensive seem par for the course at this point. Allsmiles even admits that it was merely "throwing rocks at the beehive." I tried the exact same technique here just once (making hyperbolic right wing statements to bring out the left) and they nearly choked on the bile they spewed back. It is a ridiculous way to approach conversation.

Agape4Robin
May 7th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Hhhhmmmmm.............and I helped to defend against the use of the word, "faggot". I feel like I have egg on my face. Here I was trying to be kind and civil, and then some moron wants to throw rocks at the beehive? :mad:

Ugly, ugly people! :sozo2:

Lovejoy
May 7th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Hhhhmmmmm.............and I helped to defend against the use of the word, "faggot". I feel like I have egg on my face. Here I was trying to be kind and civil, and then some moron wants to throw rocks at the beehive? :mad:

Ugly, ugly people! :sozo2:
I wouldn't sweat it, Robin. Some people (like myself) are inherently gentle, and need to fight that sometimes to get the truth across. Some (perhaps Sozo was the best example) are a bit more caustic and had to fight sometimes to show mercy. Neither makes someone right or wrong, as only Jesus can do that. Threads like this are started to offend, and then the originator backslides into courtesy to cover his tracks. Well, a courteous lie is still a lie, like it or not. The individual is welcome to his opinion, I do not dispute that, but one has to question why the opinion is expressed where it is expressed.

Lighthouse
May 7th, 2005, 05:14 PM
And it is because I don't deserve anything God has given me, or done for me, that I owe Him everything.

Agape4Robin
May 7th, 2005, 05:16 PM
And it is because I don't deserve anything God has given me, or done for me, that I owe Him everything.
Amen!
Everything I am and everything I have is because of Him!

Lovejoy
May 7th, 2005, 05:32 PM
I just want to take this moment to thank everyone for their input.
Just so you understand, some of my posts recently have been rather hostile to the idea of of statements made at TOL that (seem) designed to draw fire from Christians. I do this because I support earnestness. I would rather someone be hot or cold, not lukewarm. I hate arguing with constructs and pretense, and just want open hearts discussing things of the heart. I hope you (and anyone else my posts have been directed at) understand.

Agape4Robin
May 7th, 2005, 05:40 PM
Just so you understand, some of my posts recently have been rather hostile to the idea of of statements made at TOL that (seem) designed to draw fire from Christians. I do this because I support earnestness. I would rather someone be hot or cold, not lukewarm. I hate arguing with constructs and pretense, and just want open hearts discussing things of the heart. I hope you (and anyone else my posts have been directed at) understand.
:thumb:

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 07:03 AM
God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.
If that be the case, then every blessing and good thing in your life you owe to yourself, but certainly not God. God is either in control, or he's not. You have to pick one.

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 07:44 AM
All right, saying that "I believe" was going a little far I think. Justin was kind enough to point out the distinction between playing with an idea and postulating a belief, a distinction I should have made right from the beginning. I'm sorry for the confusion and I don't want anyone to think that I'm simply back tracking to cover myself. I don't necessarily believe this, I just wanted an opportunity to see people thinking outside of the box.

Sorry for the confusion.

SOTK, let's get down to business:


This statement implies God is stupid.

Not necessarily, just not wholly perfect.


Everything in the universe is balanced.

Yes and no. There's also a lot of chaos out there. Do you disagree? Do you deny the existence of chaos?


It's amazing to think about how complicated the creation of everything was yet there is an order and balance of things.

I agree with you, the order and balance of things are one of the reasons I believe god is the creator.


No Supreme Being could do all of this and yet make mistakes.

That's a matter of opinion, an opinion formed from your definition of who god is, the definition appears to be the christian god. You forget that according to your representation of the over god, the prime source as it were, we are made in god's image, which I think could very well imply all of the flaws that accompany mankind.

I know, we were created perfect, but how perfect is a being with the capacity to, even unwittingly, rebel against god? According to the christian representation of god, man was created in his image and man was created initially with the ability to rebel and be deceived, which I think could quite possibly imply that your god is just as flawed as we are and therefore capable of anything.


You have it wrong, allsmiles. God owes us nothing. We owe Him everything!

Allegedly. Christians do not have the luxury of extra-biblical evidence to support such a broad claim.

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 07:45 AM
God doesn't owe me a damn thing. None of the crap I've been through is his fault. It's the fault of the human responsible. Sometimes it's me, other times it someone else. But not God's. And every thing He has given me, He gave out of grace. He didn't owe me any of it. But He gave it anyway.

So you take responsibility for all of your screw ups, but none of your triumphs?

Poly
May 9th, 2005, 08:14 AM
If that be the case, then every blessing and good thing in your life you owe to yourself, but certainly not God. God is either in control, or he's not. You have to pick one.

Some parents raise their child to do good things and be responsible. They teach him to be a successful adult, supporting him and helping him through his struggles and always promise to be there for him throughout his life. Let's say this child wins an award and gives a speech where he thanks his parents for everything they've done and says that all the blessings he has he owes to his parents. The child may have put forth the effort in accomplishing the things that have made him successful but realizes that it could never have been done without all that the parents have given to him.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Some parents raise their child to do good things and be responsible. They teach him to be a successful adult, supporting him and helping him through his struggles and always promise to be there for him throughout his life. Let's say this child wins an award and gives a speech where he thanks his parents for everything they've done and says that all the blessings he has he owes to his parents. The child may have put forth the effort in accomplishing the things that have made him successful but realizes that it could never have been done without all that the parents have given to him.
That I understand. I guess it's just a total depravity concept that confuses me.

Poly
May 9th, 2005, 08:20 AM
I guess it's just a total depravity concept that confuses me.

That concept tends to infuriate me but I wonder if you could tell me exactly what you mean by total depravity.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 08:29 AM
That concept doesn't confuse me but rather infuriates me but I wonder if you could tell me exactly what you mean by total depravity.
Ok, I'm probably going out on a limb here, but Lighthouse was talking about claiming responsibility for his own screw-ups, shortcomings, etc. And that's cool. I was just wondering if he'd also claim responsibility for his triumphs, or would that credit have to go to God?

My sense of total depravity is that man is incapable of holiness (not sinning) apart from the grace of God. Hopefully it actually ties into what we're talking about here. I'm not sure what you guys around here think of the total depravity thing. I've been surprised before. Dispensational theonomists?!?! :shocked:

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 08:50 AM
Cal's definition of total depravity seems pretty right on, corresponds with "all are dead in trespasses and sin", "no one may come to the father...", so on and so forth. Apart from the grace of god we're all totally depraved. I agree with Poly, pretty dreadful, yet unfortunately on the surface it appears to be completely biblical. However for every doctrine the bible supports it supports the exacty opposite, so how are we supposed to take it seriously?

Poly
May 9th, 2005, 08:58 AM
Ok, I'm probably going out on a limb here, but Lighthouse was talking about claiming responsibility for his own screw-ups, shortcomings, etc. And that's cool. I was just wondering if he'd also claim responsibility for his triumphs, or would that credit have to go to God?
Well, I hate to beat an example to death but...

Again with the parents. If they are good parents and have taught their kids well, it's not a sure fire guarentee that the kid will never mess up. The kid has his own free will and if he sees something that's not good for him yet looks enticing, he might give in to it if his lust at the time is stronger than the part in him that says "don't do it" because of what his parents taught him.



My sense of total depravity is that man is incapable of holiness (not sinning) apart from the grace of God.
I agree


Hopefully it actually ties into what we're talking about here. I'm not sure what you guys around here think of the total depravity thing.

Many would say that total depravity means that man has nothing in himself outside of God "programming" it into him. He would have to have predestined that a man do good in order for him to do so. This isn't biblical. God gave man a conscience and a freewill. Because of sin entering the world, many times man will go against what the conscience tells him is good. But a person who just knows to go in a burning building to save a child did not have to have that preprogrammed into him by God.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 09:04 AM
Well, I hate to beat an example to death but...

Again with the parents. If they are good parents and have taught their kids well, it's not a sure fire guarentee that the kid will never mess up. The kid has his own free will and if he sees something that's not good for him yet looks enticing, he might give in to it if his lust at the time is stronger than the part in him that says "don't do it" because of what his parents taught him.



I agree



Many would say that total depravity means that man has nothing in himself outside of God "programming" it in to him. He would have to have predestined that a man do good in order for him to do so. This isn't biblical. God gave man a conscience and a freewill. Because of sin entering the world, many times man will go against what the conscience tells him is good. But a person who just knows to go in a burning building to save a child did not have to have that preprogrammed into him by God.
As much as I deplore the implications of Calvinist theology, I also believe that it is a more consistent and accurate representation of what the Bible actually says. The Bible doesn't implicitly teach free will. Free will is inferred based on the reader's own personal observations. I don't think it's fair to limit God's ability to predestine something, while giving us a choice at the same time. God operates in ways beyond our comprehension, no? There's no reason to believe that free will is anything other than a very elaborate illusion. I mean, do we truly have free will? The point is moot, because we can never go back and change our choices. Once a choice has been made, it's unchangeable. It is also impossible to predict what would have happened if we had chosen differently. While we can make our choices, we can't change them. Elaborate illusion.

Poly
May 9th, 2005, 09:28 AM
As much as I deplore the implications of Calvinist theology, I also believe that it is a more consistent and accurate representation of what the Bible actually says.
Please show where the bible teaches Calvinist theology.


The Bible doesn't implicitly teach free will. Free will is inferred based on the reader's own personal observations.
Can one not come to the very truth of something by his own personal observation? My personal observation of the bible is that it speaks clearly of freewill being true. When God says that he brought the animals to Adam to see what He would name them, there's no reason to think He didn't mean it. When he says of the generation before the flood "I regret having made man, my own personal observation is to realize He meant what He said. When he says to Abraham after almost sacrificing his son "now I know", He means it.

Unfortuntaly it's man who has completely taken upon himself to add to scripture claiming that God didn't really mean what He said because He predestined everything so He didn't really want to know what Adam would name the animals or truly regret making man or know something after Abraham almost sacrificing His son that He didn't know before.


I don't think it's fair to limit God's ability to predestine something, while giving us a choice at the same time. I don't think it's fair to think that God can do that which is absurd. We either have a freewill or we don't. Both cannot logically take place at the same time and God is not the author of confusion doing that which is illogical.




God operates in ways beyond our comprehension, no?
There may be some things that we don't know of God but the important things such as his attributes and how He interacts with us is made clear and it's obvious that God wants us to know these things about Him. One of the biggest things He wants us to know of Him is that He is good and He is not warped. This is how He is described biblically so to say that God predestined man to do that which is bad completely goes against scripture.



There's no reason to believe that free will is anything other than a very elaborate illusion.
I disagree. Elaborate illusion better describes man taking it upon himself to say that God means something else other than what He tells us.


I mean, do we truly have free will? The point is moot, because we can never go back and change our choices. Once a choice has been made, it's unchangeable. It is also impossible to predict what would have happened if we had chosen differently. While we can make our choices, we can't change them. Elaborate illusion.
This part I don't understand. Just because we can't go back and change our choices doesn't mean that we don't have freewill. This would be like mystical magic stuff. I wouldn't want my kid to be able to go back in time to change a bad choice he made. I want him to learn what is right and make good choices and if he does make bad ones I want him to learn from it so he doesn't make a bad one again.

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 10:29 AM
Please show where the bible teaches Calvinist theology.

You'll find a wealth of it in Romans 9. Paul's teaching...


Can one not come to the very truth of something by his own personal observation?

Absolutely, that's what I do, I just don't use the bible as a guide, I use the intuition god designed me with, intuition that is patterned after his own.


My personal observation of the bible is that it speaks clearly of freewill being true. When God says that he brought the animals to Adam to see what He would name them, there's no reason to think He didn't mean it. When he says of the generation before the flood "I regret having made man, my own personal observation is to realize He meant what He said. When he says to Abraham after almost sacrificing his son "now I know", He means it.

If the bible were literally true you would be dead on, but the literal truth of the bible isn't the question here so I won't digress any further. The OT is dead on when it comes to backing up what you're saying right here, it's the NT where things go south.


Unfortuntaly it's man who has completely taken upon himself to add to scripture claiming that God didn't really mean what He said because He predestined everything so He didn't really want to know what Adam would name the animals or truly regret making man or know something after Abraham almost sacrificing His son that He didn't know before.

Paul's fault. Blame it all on Paul, he's guilty of doing exactly what you're talking about right here.


I don't think it's fair to think that God can do that which is absurd. We either have a freewill or we don't. Both cannot logically take place at the same time and God is not the author of confusion doing that which is illogical.

The way Cal put it makes perfect sense though, based on the premise that the bible is literal truth that is. Free will, if the bible is literal truth, is nothing more than an elaborate illusion created by our own ignorance of the future and consequences. If we knew the consequences of our actions than there would be no free will, free will only exists because we do not know the outcome of our actions or the out come of what differing actions would have been.

Just blame it on Paul.

Poly
May 9th, 2005, 01:03 PM
You'll find a wealth of it in Romans 9. Paul's teaching...

Romans 9 speaks of God rejecting a nation and turning to another.


22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25As He says also in Hosea:
"I will call them My people, who were not,
And her beloved, who was not beloved."
26"And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
"You are not My people,'
There they shall be called sons of the living God."






The OT is dead on when it comes to backing up what you're saying right here, it's the NT where things go south.

Please explain




Paul's fault. Blame it all on Paul, he's guilty of doing exactly what you're talking about right here.

Again, you're going to have to explain.




The way Cal put it makes perfect sense though, based on the premise that the bible is literal truth that is. The way Cal put it makes no sense in light of what's said in the bible.

God says He "now knows" something that He didn't know before.
Cal says God did know it before.

God says He brought the animals to Adam to see what he would name them.
Cal says God caused Adam to name them what He wanted them to be named.

God says He was sorry that He made man.
Cal says that God was not sorry but that he made man for the sole purpose of killing them.


Free will, if the bible is literal truth, is nothing more than an elaborate illusion created by our own ignorance of the future and consequences.
To add your own interpretation to scripture as Cal did above is elaborate illusion.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 01:06 PM
If that be the case, then every blessing and good thing in your life you owe to yourself, but certainly not God. God is either in control, or he's not. You have to pick one.
Not anywhere near what I said. I do not owe all the bad things to myself, and I do not owe all the good things to myself. And God is not responsible for all of the good, nor is He responsible for any of the bad. Why? Because God is good. He is not evil. and anything that may be perceived as bad at one point could very well be good. For discipline appears bad, but is actually good. So God is responsible only for what God is repsonsible for. And anything He has given me was out of grace, not anything I had earned.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 01:08 PM
So you take responsibility for all of your screw ups, but none of your triumphs?
I take responsibilty for what I am responsible for.:bang: Sometimes that means my failures, and sometimes that means my triumphs.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 01:10 PM
The way Cal put it makes no sense in light of what's said in the bible.

God says He "now knows" something that He didn't know before.
Cal says God did know it before.
The writers of the scriptures did not know what was in God's mind before or after the events you speak of.

God says He brought the animals to Adam to see what he would name them.
Cal says God caused Adam to name them what God wanted them to be named.
This passage doesn't mean that God didn't already know what Adam would name them. But Adam didn't know beforehand. He did this for Adam's benefit, not to teach Himself something.

God says He was sorry that He made man.
Cal says that God was not sorry but that he made man for the sole purpose of killing them.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. The portion of scripture you're referring to is one of the reasons I'm no longer a Christian. It's inconsistent with the picture of God painted in the rest of the scripture.

To add your own interpretation to scripture as Cal did above is elaborate illusion.
Let me take the example of Abraham being told to hack his son to pieces and burn them on a rock. I have no problem believing that God already knew what Abraham would do. God wasn't testing Abraham to satisfy his own divine curiosity. He was testing Abraham to make Abraham stronger. If God had thought for a second that Abraham was going to disobey him, then he wouldn't have made a promise of countless descendents to him in the first place.

Granite
May 9th, 2005, 01:10 PM
I take responsibilty for what I am responsible for.:bang: Sometimes that means my failures, and sometimes that means my triumphs.

Stupefying, as usual.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 01:11 PM
Not anywhere near what I said. I do not owe all the bad things to myself, and I do not owe all the good things to myself. And God is not responsible for all of the good, nor is He responsible for any of the bad. Why? Because God is good. He is not evil. and anything that may be perceived as bad at one point could very well be good. For discipline appears bad, but is actually good. So God is responsible only for what God is repsonsible for. And anything He has given me was out of grace, not anything I had earned.
I can respect this view.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 01:35 PM
The writers of the scriptures did not know what was in God's mind before or after the events you speak of.
And? God knew what was on His mond, did He not?


This passage doesn't mean that God didn't already know what Adam would name them. But Adam didn't know beforehand. He did this for Adam's benefit, not to teach Himself something.
Then why does it say what it says? Why does it say that God did it to see what Adam would name them?


Yes, that is what I'm saying. The portion of scripture you're referring to is one of the reasons I'm no longer a Christian. It's inconsistent with the picture of God painted in the rest of the scripture.
Your view of God is completely inconsistent with the picture of God presented in His word.


Let me take the example of Abraham being told to hack his son to pieces and burn them on a rock. I have no problem believing that God already knew what Abraham would do. God wasn't testing Abraham to satisfy his own divine curiosity. He was testing Abraham to make Abraham stronger. If God had thought for a second that Abraham was going to disobey him, then he wouldn't have made a promise of countless descendents to him in the first place.
What? Why would God test Abraham for Abraham's benefit? And why would God say that He didn't know, until Abraham had attempted to sacrafice Isaac? You have a problem believing Scripture.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 01:39 PM
And? God knew what was on His mond, did He not?


Then why does it say what it says? Why does it say that God did it to see what Adam would name them?


Your view of God is completely inconsistent with the picture of God presented in His word.


What? Why would God test Abraham for Abraham's benefit? And why would God say that He didn't know, until Abraham had attempted to sacrafice Isaac? You have a problem believing Scripture.
And you have a problem realizing that it was written by men, not God. It was written by men who could not possibly comprehend God's mind, describing God's actions and thoughts from a finite, temporal perspective.

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 01:44 PM
I take responsibilty for what I am responsible for.:bang: Sometimes that means my failures, and sometimes that means my triumphs.

I was only asking for clarification man, pardon me all to hell. Do you drink coffee? you should switch to decaf, you are wound way too tight.

Cal might back me up on this: Lighthouse needs a roast beef sandwich.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 01:47 PM
I was only asking for clarification man, pardon me all to hell. Do you drink coffee? you should switch to decaf, you are wound way too tight.

Cal might back me up on this: Lighthouse needs a roast beef sandwich.
Oh, you ain't kidding. Roast Bizzle, My Nizzle!

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Where did all of my stars go?

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Where did all of my stars go?
yellow = 10
blue = 100
green = 1000
purple = 10000

they represtent your number of posts

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 02:26 PM
And you have a problem realizing that it was written by men, not God. It was written by men who could not possibly comprehend God's mind, describing God's actions and thoughts from a finite, temporal perspective.
They wrote what God told them. What He said. Not what they thought was on His mind.:doh:

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 02:38 PM
They wrote what God told them. What He said. Not what they thought was on His mind.:doh:
Ok, that's fine. Assume that the scriptures were dictated by God. Inspiration doesn't mean dictation. Getting hung up on individual words leads to dangerous discrepancies in doctrine.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 02:56 PM
I never said they were all dictated by God. But in the instances where it says, "God said..," what do you think it means?

allsmiles
May 9th, 2005, 03:00 PM
Lighthouse the fact that you never said these things is the problem, we can't read your mind, if you want us to know what you believe you'll either have to tell us or be more cordial when you explain it. Us not knowing the things that you haven't said isn't the problem, so chill out.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 03:30 PM
BS.

Cal is assuming I believe things that I never said, nor did I ever imply.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 03:34 PM
BS.

Cal is assuming I believe things that I never said, nor did I ever imply.
Sorry, I forgot to get back to you. In instances where "God said" we don't really have any proof that it was actually God saying whatever was being said. But this is beside the point.

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Yes it is. Very much beside the point. God is presented in the Bible as having said those things. This shows that the Bible does not show God to have exhaustively predestined everything.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Yes it is. Very much beside the point. God is preented in the Bible as having said those things. This shows that the Bible does not show God to have exhaustively predestined anything.
No it only shows that God relates to people in ways that they can understand. It doesn't preclude the possibility that God already knew, but was just making Abraham "hard". Just like he did with Job. Trials and suffering make stronger people, don't they. He made a legend out of Abraham, a legend big enough to become the patriarch of three gigantic religions. I think God knew what would happen. The test was for Abraham's sake only. To strengthen his faith. To forge in the fires of trial, the man he had chosen to be the father of nations.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 03:47 PM
By the way, what do you mean by exhaustive predestination?

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 03:51 PM
No it only shows that God relates to people in ways that they can understand. It doesn't preclude the possibility that God already knew, but was just making Abraham "hard". Just like he did with Job. Trials and suffering make stronger people, don't they. He made a legend out of Abraham, a legend big enough to become the patriarch of three gigantic religions. I think God knew what would happen. The test was for Abraham's sake only. To strengthen his faith. To forge in the fires of trial, the man he had chosen to be the father of nations.
Wrong. It denies that God already knew, outright.

And where do you get the idea that God hardened Job?

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 03:55 PM
By the way, what do you mean by exhaustive predestination?
I edited my post. I meant to say, "everything."

And that is what I mean by exhaustive predestination, that God predestined everything, from before anything was. Of course, that woul mean He predestined the predestining, and predestined that predestining, and predestined that predestining...

God did not exhaustively predestine, nor does He exhaustively know that which will come to pass.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Wrong. It denies that God already knew, outright.

And where do you get the idea that God hardened Job?
Well, you don't think he got softer after all that punishment, do you? I don't mean hardened heart or anything, just that he got tougher.

Genesis doesn't deny that God already knew. Genesis tells us that God spoke to Abraham and told him a specific thing. He told Abraham what he needed to hear. Because he had predestined how Abraham would react, so he already knew what to say.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 03:56 PM
I edited my post. I meant to say, "everything."

And that is what I mean by exhaustive predestination, that God predestined everything, from before anything was. Of course, that woul mean He predestined the predestining, and predestined that predestining, and predestined that predestining...

God did not exhaustively predestine, nor does He exhaustively know that which will come to pass.
Ok, does God know any of the future?

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 04:03 PM
Well, you don't think he got softer after all that punishment, do you? I don't mean hardened heart or anything, just that he got tougher.
God didn't do any of that to Job. Nor was it punishment. The whole point of the story of Job is that Job was a good man. There was no mention of punishment. Satan was trying to get Job to trip up, and reject God. And it didn't work.


Genesis doesn't deny that God already knew. Genesis tells us that God spoke to Abraham and told him a specific thing. He told Abraham what he needed to hear. Because he had predestined how Abraham would react, so he already knew what to say.
See, the problem with predestination is right there. God told Abraham what he needed to hear, even though He predestined how Abraham would react? That's so bassackwards, I can't even spell straight after having read it.

Caledvwlch
May 9th, 2005, 04:06 PM
God didn't do any of that to Job. Nor was it punishment. The whole point of the story of Job is that Job was a good man. There was no mention of punishment. Satan was trying to get Job to trip up, and reject God. And it didn't work.


See, the problem with predestination is right there. God told Abraham what he needed to hear, even though He predestined how Abraham would react? That's so bassackwards, I can't even spell straight after having read it.
Just because you can't wrap your mind around the things of God, doesn't mean no one else can. Anyway, I'll talk to you later, my friend. I have to go smoke enough crack to burn a whole through my cerebral cortex. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Ok, does God know any of the future?
Yes. He knows His plans. He knows what he will do to bring them about. But He does not know what time I will get up, tomorrow. Nor what I will wear.

drbrumley
May 9th, 2005, 04:09 PM
Just because you can't wrap your mind around the things of God, doesn't mean no one else can. Anyway, I'll talk to you later, my friend. I have to go smoke enough crack to burn a whole through my cerebral cortex. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!


Thats funny! How a pagan hater of God will tell God's own children what the scriptures mean?

Lighthouse
May 9th, 2005, 04:11 PM
Just because you can't wrap your mind around the things of God, doesn't mean no one else can. Anyway, I'll talk to you later, my friend. I have to go smoke enough crack to burn a whole through my cerebral cortex. MUAHAHAHAHA!!!
So, when you're backed into a corner, you exit?

reminds me of someone else::granite:

:think:


Thats funny! How a pagan hater of God will tell God's own children what the scriptures mean?
Isn't it, doc?

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 06:50 AM
So, when you're backed into a corner, you exit?

reminds me of someone else::granite:
Nope. Work was over. I had to leave. You don't think I do this on my free time, do you?

:think:



Isn't it, doc?
Besides, I wasn't quite backed into a corner. I can do this all day long.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 06:54 AM
Thats funny! How a pagan hater of God will tell God's own children what the scriptures mean?
I never said I hated God. I'm an atheist, not a pagan. I don't hate God, in fact I admire the concept of an all-powerful supreme being, and I spent years and years studying the scripture. For the purposes of this thread, you could say I'm arguing predestination. Only because that's what I was taught, even though I no longer believe it. An exercise in rhetoric. So, let's get back to it.

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 07:13 AM
Yes. He knows His plans. He knows what he will do to bring them about. But He does not know what time I will get up, tomorrow. Nor what I will wear.

So....

What's so great about your god again? :rolleyes:

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 07:20 AM
Yes. He knows His plans. He knows what he will do to bring them about. But He does not know what time I will get up, tomorrow. Nor what I will wear.
So how can God be confident enough to make a promise, if he doesn't know what people are going to do?

So God doesn't know the future then. He's got an itinerary, but it depends on what we do? Come on, this is God we're talking about. That's silly.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 11:06 AM
So how can God be confident enough to make a promise, if he doesn't know what people are going to do?

So God doesn't know the future then. He's got an itinerary, but it depends on what we do? Come on, this is God we're talking about. That's silly.
Yes, much of it depends on what we do. Why do you think He called Paul int ministry, and sent Him to the Gentiles? Because the Jews rejected Christ. God's plan was to bring salvation to the world, through the Jews, and have them go into all the world and preach the gospel. But it didn't happen. So He went in another direction.

But many of His promises aren't contingent upon our responses. His promise of never flooding the earth again is one that does not depend on anythign, other than His word.

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 11:08 AM
Your god sounds a lot like you Lighthouse.

Your own personal jesus.

monochrome
May 10th, 2005, 11:30 AM
Isn't it safe to assume that if the christian god created all things, including the human comprehension of the idea of time, that simply being outside of time he already knows the outcome? If this were true than the damned be damned for the actions he has not yet seen from our perspective, but has seen from his.

Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.

The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.

If you find this post to be meaningless, it's beacuase of the customers interrupting my train of thought, and I'm sorry.

- m -

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Don't worry about it Mono, customers have a tendancy to break one's attention from time to time.

I hear what you're talking about. As far as predestination goes, I think it's all hogwash.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:04 PM
Your god sounds a lot like you Lighthouse.

Your own personal jesus.
:crackup:

Hardly. When I first came to TOL, a little over a year ago, I didn't believe the things I posted. Now I do. All because it was shown to me, in Scripture, by others.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:10 PM
Isn't it safe to assume that if the christian god created all things, including the human comprehension of the idea of time, that simply being outside of time he already knows the outcome? If this were true than the damned be damned for the actions he has not yet seen from our perspective, but has seen from his.

Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.

The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.

If you find this post to be meaningless, it's beacuase of the customers interrupting my train of thought, and I'm sorry.

- m -
Forget the time angle monochrome. They hate it when you suggest that God might exist outside of time. Mainly because it totally kills whatever ammo they have against predestination. But I've been around and around on this one, and they refuse to even try to think outside the space-time continuum for a few minutes.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:14 PM
Isn't it safe to assume that if the christian god created all things, including the human comprehension of the idea of time, that simply being outside of time he already knows the outcome? If this were true than the damned be damned for the actions he has not yet seen from our perspective, but has seen from his.
God did not create time. It is not of substance to have been created. It is merely the succession of events. Time simply exists, and has always existed.


Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.
And it's a completely ridiculous fallacy.


The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.
There is no such place as "outside of time," because time is not tangible. It is not a dimension.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:16 PM
Told ya. :chuckle: They hate it.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:19 PM
I use to think God was outside of time. Then I realized what time actually is, and saw how imminently stupid the idea of God being outside of time was.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:21 PM
I use to think God was outside of time. Then I realized what time actually is, and saw how imminently stupid the idea of God being outside of time was.
You didn't realize anything. You changed your presupposition on the matter. I have never realized anything about time either. I'm simply willing to imagine things beyond my own comprehension. The only reason the idea is ridiculous to you is because it flies in the face of your free will theories.

Poly
May 10th, 2005, 01:24 PM
Forget the time angle monochrome. They hate it when you suggest that God might exist outside of time. Mainly because it totally kills whatever ammo they have against predestination.

Or maybe we hate it because we tend to think one should be able to back up what he says and not make something up out of thin air that just sounds good or believe something that somebody else made up out of thin air.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Or maybe we hate it because we tend to think one should be able to back up what he says and not make something up out of thin air that just sounds good or believe something that somebody else made up out of thin air.
For someone to say God is bound by time is just as made up. This whole argument is conjecture, which is why it kills me that you guys hate it so much. Can we not just sit together and conjecture? Or are your conjectures the only acceptable ones?

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 01:31 PM
God did not create time. It is not of substance to have been created. It is merely the succession of events. Time simply exists, and has always existed.

He didn't say that Dimshack -- great, I've lost so much respect for you that now I'm calling you names too -- he said that god created man's comprehension of time.

monochrome
May 10th, 2005, 01:32 PM
Hey, I don't believe in predestination myself. It just doesn't gel. As for making things up without proof or simply believing the imaginations of others... I think the christians have the market on that one. I'm agreeing with you, in a really weird way.

But on the topic of God oweing us, I don't think God would need to experience pain to understand what it is like. If he truly is the omnipotent creator, than he invented pain and knows exactly how it's supposed to feel.

- m -

monochrome
May 10th, 2005, 01:33 PM
-- he said that god created man's comprehension of time.

Oh, thank you smiles, I was hoping someone would see that.

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 01:35 PM
You didn't realize anything. You changed your presupposition on the matter. I have never realized anything about time either. I'm simply willing to imagine things beyond my own comprehension. The only reason the idea is ridiculous to you is because it flies in the face of your free will theories.

It's called abstract thought Cal. A mind not well differentiated lacks the capacity for abstract thought.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:40 PM
You didn't realize anything. You changed your presupposition on the matter. I have never realized anything about time either. I'm simply willing to imagine things beyond my own comprehension. The only reason the idea is ridiculous to you is because it flies in the face of your free will theories.
Wrong.

I have seen exactly what the Bible says. And what it shows. And have used logic to realize that time is not a substance.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Wrong.

I have seen exactly what the Bible says. And what it shows. And have used logic to realize that time is not a substance.
Well, der. Of course it's not a substance. But there is no logic that rules out the possibility of time being something created and able to be manipulated by God.

Poly
May 10th, 2005, 01:44 PM
For someone to say God is bound by time is just as made up. This whole argument is conjecture, which is why it kills me that you guys hate it so much.

God is not bound by time because time is an idea. Just a concept not a created thing as has been made up by man.



Can we not just sit together and conjecture? Or are your conjectures the only acceptable ones.

Pot...kettle...black...

You're confident that time is more than an idea, being something created by God in which He can go in and out of. You don't want to consider that maybe since this isn't biblical and since man has such an imagination, he might have made the whole idea up, coming to a conclusion that simply sounded good. I'm just not in to believing things that aren't scriptural and that are absurd.

Yeah, we can sit together and conjecture... as long as it's not over ideas like "Do flying monkeys exist?".

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:45 PM
He didn't say that Dimshack -- great, I've lost so much respect for you that now I'm calling you names too -- he said that god created man's comprehension of time.
He's still wrong.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Just to clarify here, I don't believe time is a thing. I just have yet to see a convincing argument that it is not. The Scriptures lighthouse in particular has shown me can be interpreted too many different ways to be offered as proof. I have no proof either. That's kind of my point. You stick so hard to the idea that time does not exist, but you leave no room for other options.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 01:54 PM
I never said time does not exist.

monochrome
May 10th, 2005, 01:54 PM
Well, der. Of course it's not a substance. But there is no logic that rules out the possibility of time being something created and able to be manipulated by God.

I suddenly see God wearing a white lab-coat, trying to plug two wires together at the top of a clock tower screaming "Marty!". :D

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:56 PM
I suddenly see God wearing a white lab-coat, trying to plug two wires together at the top of a clock tower screaming "Marty!". :D
1.28 GIGAWATTS??? :dizzy:

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 01:56 PM
this is what happens to christians like Lighthouse, they cannot comprehend ideas that do not fit into a pre-written blue print.

It controls their thoughts, they surrender their minds to it.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 01:58 PM
this is what happens to christians like Lighthouse, they cannot comprehend ideas that do not fit into a pre-written blue print.

It controls their thoughts, they surrender their minds to it.
Now, release your fear, hone your hatred, and destroy me!

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:05 PM
1.28 GIGAWATTS??? :dizzy:
That's "1.21."

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Wow, Lighthouse is a bigger geek than the rest of us.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 02:07 PM
That's "1.21."
My bad.

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:09 PM
this is what happens to christians like Lighthouse, they cannot comprehend ideas that do not fit into a pre-written blue print.

It controls their thoughts, they surrender their minds to it.
Wrong again, buffoon.

What part of "I used to believe God was outside of time," did you not understand?! I beleived it. It was only when I tried to wrap my mind around what exactly that meant that I found it to be completely illogical!

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 02:11 PM
Wrong again, buffoon.

What part of "I used to believe God was outside of time," did you not understand?! I beleived it. It was only when I tried to wrap my mind around what exactly that meant that I found it to be completely illogical!
Is the buffoon part really necessary?

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Wow, Lighthouse is a bigger geek than the rest of us.
Have I ever claimed otherwise?

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:24 PM
Is the buffoon part really necessary?
Yes.

If people don't get it when it is plainly laid out, then they are buffoons.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Yes.

If people don't get it when it is plainly laid out, then they are buffoons.
Do you like pro wrestling?

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:41 PM
I hate pro wrestling.

Caledvwlch
May 10th, 2005, 02:45 PM
I hate pro wrestling.
Darn. I was just looking for some common ground. Ok, nevermind.

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Wrong again, buffoon.

What part of "I used to believe God was outside of time," did you not understand?! I beleived it. It was only when I tried to wrap my mind around what exactly that meant that I found it to be completely illogical!

And I said...


this is what happens to christians like Lighthouse, they cannot comprehend ideas that do not fit into a pre-written blue print.

It controls their thoughts, they surrender their minds to it.

I wasn't so much commenting on the conversation as I was making a jab at you.

Sorry, I'll pipe down until I have something constructive to add to this. :D

Lighthouse
May 10th, 2005, 02:50 PM
Well, it seems that's the end of hearing anything from allsmiles.

allsmiles
May 10th, 2005, 03:11 PM
You're soooooooooooooo funny Lighthouse.

That must explain all of your girlfriends.

Agape4Robin
May 10th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Isn't it safe to assume that if the christian god created all things, including the human comprehension of the idea of time, that simply being outside of time he already knows the outcome? If this were true than the damned be damned for the actions he has not yet seen from our perspective, but has seen from his.

Think of it like this. A playwrite writes his masterpiece. It's shakespearian with plot twists and pointless death scenes. He writes up characters, plot, and and end. He's seen it all already, even though it hasn't been acted yet, and he knows the bad guy was bad because, well, he killed that other guy. Then he condems them all to hell, anyway. This is christian predestination.

The best way to think about predestination, for me anyway, would be to see it as God sitting outside of time. He did not write the actions, but he did see them before they happened. The script wrote itself and he got to read it before we acted it out. It's an issue of perspective: time, and our inability to think outside it.

If you find this post to be meaningless, it's beacuase of the customers interrupting my train of thought, and I'm sorry.

- m -
I agree with you -m- . Just because God saw the future before it happens, doesn't make Him responsible for it. His omniscience does not impose on our free will. God is outside the parameters of time. Didn't He say that 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000 years to HIm? Sounds like God does not hold to the limitations of time that we do.

Lovejoy
May 10th, 2005, 08:41 PM
My bad.
See, its not just me that does stuff like that!

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 12:36 AM
You're soooooooooooooo funny Lighthouse.

That must explain all of your girlfriends.
Hey! I can count all the girlfriends I've ever had on one hand!:eek:

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 12:58 AM
I agree with you -m- . Just because God saw the future before it happens, doesn't make Him responsible for it. His omniscience does not impose on our free will. God is outside the parameters of time. Didn't He say that 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000 years to HIm? Sounds like God does not hold to the limitations of time that we do.
Good job of eisegesis.:rolleyes:

A day being as 1000 years to Him means that because He is eternal, He does not perceive time as we do. He never said that He doesn't experience the passage of time as we do. And if God knew exhaustively what we would do, then we could not do otherwise. Therefore, free will would be an illusion.

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 01:05 AM
Darn. I was just looking for some common ground.
James Bond?

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 06:22 AM
I agree with you -m- . Just because God saw the future before it happens, doesn't make Him responsible for it. His omniscience does not impose on our free will. God is outside the parameters of time. Didn't He say that 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000 years to HIm? Sounds like God does not hold to the limitations of time that we do.
Well lighthouse may not like it, but I thought you made a pretty good point. :)

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 06:23 AM
James Bond?
Bond is cool, but I'm not a super-fan. Connery is the best. Pierce was pretty good, and I can do without the rest.

beanieboy
May 11th, 2005, 07:17 AM
I agree with you -m- . Just because God saw the future before it happens, doesn't make Him responsible for it. His omniscience does not impose on our free will. God is outside the parameters of time. Didn't He say that 1000 years is as a day and a day is as a 1000 years to HIm? Sounds like God does not hold to the limitations of time that we do.

But the argument is:
If I create something imperfect, should I blame the creation for its imperfection?

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 07:26 AM
A day being as 1000 years to Him means that because He is eternal, He does not perceive time as we do. He never said that He doesn't experience the passage of time as we do. And if God knew exhaustively what we would do, then we could not do otherwise. Therefore, free will would be an illusion.

Doesn't the analogy of a day being as 1000 years to him imply rather explicitly that he does not experience time as we do? After such a comparison wouldn't it be common sense to take it for granted?

logos_x
May 11th, 2005, 07:45 AM
God has huge plans for the world today! He is not content to merely establish a handful of struggling churches among each tongue, tribe and nation. Even now He is preparing and empowering His Church to carry the seeds of revival to the uttermost ends of the earth. -- David Smithers

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 07:48 AM
Okay, kind of irrelevant, but okay.

logos_x
May 11th, 2005, 01:06 PM
Irrelevent?
While I don't agree with the "God owes us" idea...what He plans to do is far beyond what can be imagined.
Payback is on it's way.

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 01:17 PM
oh, okay, now I know what you're talking about.

I don't necessarily believe god owes us anything either, but one must retain the ability to consider anything worthy of being formulated into an idea as being worthy of possibility.

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 01:20 PM
I believe that if Jesus died on the cross, and even if he didn't, even if the story is a metaphor, it is a representation of god reconciling himself to us. I believe god feels badly for the earthly, physical situation we're in, I think he created us not knowing the consequences of his actions, and because he is good, cannot destroy us. I believe that the death of jesus was an act to help him better understand our pain, not to save us, but so that he could experience what we do, so he could be side by side with us and relate and let us know he is sorry for what he did.

I think god owes us big time.

Discuss.

Boy, God owes you, believers owe an explanation to you of how you can tell Christians from non-Christians. How important you must be to have accumulated so much debt.

Does anyone or anything not owe you?

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Boy, God owes you, believers owe an explanation to you of how you can tell Christians from non-Christians. How important you must be to have accumulated so much debt. Does anyone or anything not owe you?

Like I said before, I don't necessarily believe god owes us anything, I think it's a possibility. As for believers owing non-believes an explanation as to who is, or who isn't a real christian, I think it would be nice. From the outside looking in, christianity is a circus, I'd like to be able to look back at all of the horrible things you folks have done and be able to say, "ah look, they were really christians, you can tell from this..."

Unfortunately there's nothing to seperate good christians from just good people, and there's nothing to seperate good christians from bad christians (at least not in the eyes of an unbeliever), and there's nothing to seperate bad christians from bad people, just the name. To you guys it's a matter of the holy spirit, to us, we don't believe in the holy spirit, so all we have to go by is the name "christian".

For an ubeliever like myself, is there anything better you can offer besides the holy spirit or the bible for me to use as a way to differentiate between real and fake christians?

I'm talking common sense, a post it note on your foreheads or something that we can see. I don't think I'm asking for too much, of course without your bibles you're helpless, so maybe I am...

And having one theory and one question does not equal "accumulated so much debt." I think you're very sensitive and should take a chill pill, or ask Cal for a roast beef sandwich.

monochrome
May 11th, 2005, 02:07 PM
For an ubeliever like myself, is there anything better you can offer besides the holy spirit or the bible for me to use as a way to differentiate between real and fake christians?

Yes, you see, if a christian weighs the same as a duck, then they are made of wood.

How would eating roast beef calm someone down? I mean, it's tasty and all, 'specially with some provalone, brown mustard and banana peppers but...

- m -

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Yes, you see, if a christian weighs the same as a duck, then they are made of wood.

How would eating roast beef calm someone down? I mean, it's tasty and all, 'specially with some provalone, brown mustard and banana peppers but...

- m -
Oh, you need to be one of the cool people to get in on the roast beef thing.

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Like I said before, I don't necessarily believe god owes us anything, I think it's a possibility. As for believers owing non-believes an explanation as to who is, or who isn't a real christian, I think it would be nice. From the outside looking in, christianity is a circus, I'd like to be able to look back at all of the horrible things you folks have done and be able to say, "ah look, they were really christians, you can tell from this..."

Unfortunately there's nothing to seperate good christians from just good people, and there's nothing to seperate good christians from bad christians (at least not in the eyes of an unbeliever), and there's nothing to seperate bad christians from bad people, just the name. To you guys it's a matter of the holy spirit, to us, we don't believe in the holy spirit, so all we have to go by is the name "christian".

For an ubeliever like myself, is there anything better you can offer besides the holy spirit or the bible for me to use as a way to differentiate between real and fake christians?


I'm talking common sense, a post it note on your foreheads or something that we can see. I don't think I'm asking for too much, of course without your bibles you're helpless, so maybe I am...

And having one theory and one question does not equal "accumulated so much debt." I think you're very sensitive and should take a chill pill, or ask Cal for a roast beef sandwich.

:yawn:

Zakath
May 11th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Oh, you need to be one of the cool people to get in on the roast beef thing.
:chew: Yup.

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Yes, you see, if a christian weighs the same as a duck, then they are made of wood.

How would eating roast beef calm someone down? I mean, it's tasty and all, 'specially with some provalone, brown mustard and banana peppers but...

- m -

When I was a small child I had a story record called Mr. Flibbertigibbit. It contained the following lyrics in a song:

If you want peace and quiet
You have got to change your diet.
Eat more roast beef!

More roast beef?

Lots of beef for sure is the perfect cure.


So, perhaps allsmiles is onto something there.

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 02:35 PM
:shocked:

monochrome
May 11th, 2005, 02:44 PM
When I was a small child I had a story record called Mr. Flibbertigibbit. It contained the following lyrics in a song:

If you want peace and quiet
You have got to change your diet.
Eat more roast beef!

More roast beef?

Lots of beef for sure is the perfect cure.


So, perhaps allsmiles is onto something there.

What have I been missing all these years? I'm go purchase me some roast beef and roll them up individually, as I am too poor for bread. Mmmm... roast beef...

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 02:46 PM
When I was a small child I had a story record called Mr. Flibbertigibbit. It contained the following lyrics in a song:

If you want peace and quiet
You have got to change your diet.
Eat more roast beef!

More roast beef?

Lots of beef for sure is the perfect cure.


So, perhaps allsmiles is onto something there.

Oh you have no idea man, not your fault, you just don't.

And is the :yawn: an indication that you're not going to wear a post it note on your forehead?

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 02:49 PM
What have I been missing all these years? I'm go purchase me some roast beef and roll them up individually, as I am too poor for bread. Mmmm... roast beef...

Yup, roll it up, put it in your mouth and wait for the magic to happen. :cloud9:

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Oh you have no idea man, not your fault, you just don't.

And is the :yawn: an indication that you're not going to wear a post it note on your forehead?

Because I obviously lack your keen intellect, I have no idea what you are talking about. However, I can live with that.

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 02:53 PM
is there something in the bible that prohibits you from kidding around with the hell bound, or is this your own personal vendetta?

You know, from the venom christians spew at our kind, you'd think hell wasn't enough.

monochrome
May 11th, 2005, 02:53 PM
Yup, roll it up, put it in your mouth and wait for the magic to happen. :cloud9:

Ummm... okay. I now think that if God owed us something, he tried to make up for it with roast beef.

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 03:00 PM
:idea:

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 03:01 PM
is there something in the bible that prohibits you from kidding around with the hell bound, or is this your own personal vendetta?

You know, from the venom christians spew at our kind, you'd think hell wasn't enough.

In fact,. I am kidding around with you. Every now and then it is fun to do. I thought the Mr. Flibberdigibbit thing might have been a clue.

:p

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Ummm... okay. I now think that if God owed us something, he tried to make up for it with roast beef.

You have, perhaps, unwittingly stumbled upon the eternal truth that will unite all mankind.

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 03:06 PM
You have, perhaps, unwittingly stumbled upon the eternal truth that will unite all mankind.
Wouldn't that be something? Eat my shorts, vegans!

allsmiles
May 11th, 2005, 03:08 PM
In fact,. I am kidding around with you. Every now and then it is fun to do. I thought the Mr. Flibberdigibbit thing might have been a clue.

:p

Sorry man. Sometimes it's close to impossible for me to read people over the internet.

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Sorry man. Sometimes it's close to impossible for me to read people over the internet.

Well, I have already been chastised by Zakath for improper and too infrequent use of smilies.

Now, I don't think that God owes you, me or anyone anything. But this is yet another topic on which we won't agree.

I am assuming that the "satanist" designation is tongue in cheek. You seem to be a "normal athiest" to me. :jump:

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 03:18 PM
:jump:
Well doesn't that look like fun? :jump: cool... :Nineveh:

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Well doesn't that look like fun? :jump: cool... :Nineveh:

Keep in mind, I often don't know what the smilies mean, I just pick ones that look fun. This is my favorite. :cow:

docrob57
May 11th, 2005, 03:21 PM
Keep in mind, I often don't know what the smilies mean, I just pick ones that look fun. This is my favorite. :cow:

Hmm, here we are back at roast beef again aren't we.

Agape4Robin
May 11th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Good job of eisegesis.:rolleyes:

A day being as 1000 years to Him means that because He is eternal, He does not perceive time as we do. He never said that He doesn't experience the passage of time as we do. And if God knew exhaustively what we would do, then we could not do otherwise. Therefore, free will would be an illusion.
I think you meant exegesis....... :rolleyes:

So God is not omniscient? So, Adam caught Him by surprise? He didn't know that humanity would fall? Jesus was a last minute decision? Damage control?
:nono:

Sorry :Brandon: You are wrong about this one. Just because God knows about our choices and decisions before we do, does not negate our free will. He demonstrates it in prophecy. He knew the decisions and choices that Pharoah would make prior to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. He knew that Joseph's brothers would sell him off into slavery and that during the famine, they would seek help and Joseph would be in a high position in Egypt.....eventually helped his brothers and family. There are many other instances where God demonstrates His omniscience.
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 03:32 PM
I think you meant exegesis....... :rolleyes:

So God is not omniscient? So, Adam caught Him by surprise? He didn't know that humanity would fall? Jesus was a last minute decision? Damage control?
:nono:

Sorry :Brandon: You are wrong about this one. Just because God knows about our choices and decisions before we do, does not negate our free will. He demonstrates it in prophecy. He knew the decisions and choices that Pharoah would make prior to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. He knew that Joseph's brothers would sell him off into slavery and that during the famine, they would seek help and Joseph would be in a high position in Egypt.....eventually helped his brothers and family. There are many other instances where God demonstrates His omniscience.
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.
Nice. Sorry for agreeing with you, because I know that hurts your credibility in lighthouse's eyes, but well done. :BRAVO:

monochrome
May 11th, 2005, 03:39 PM
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.

See, that is exactly what I was saying all through christian high school, and everyone hated me fore it. Or at least, one guy kinda disliked me a little because of it. I don't believe it that way anymore, but I can see where you're coming from. Nice zing, by the way.

- m -

Caledvwlch
May 11th, 2005, 03:41 PM
Oh, by the way, Robin... monochrome
chrome... Robin.

Robin's one of the good guys.

Agape4Robin
May 11th, 2005, 04:17 PM
Nice. Sorry for agreeing with you, because I know that hurts your credibility in lighthouse's eyes, but well done. :BRAVO:
Don't be sorry! :doh:

I don't care what Brandon thinks of me.....I know who I am and I know what I believe....popular or not. ;)

And thank you BTW! :Nineveh:

Agape4Robin
May 11th, 2005, 04:19 PM
See, that is exactly what I was saying all through christian high school, and everyone hated me fore it. Or at least, one guy kinda disliked me a little because of it. I don't believe it that way anymore, but I can see where you're coming from. Nice zing, by the way.

- m -
Hey -m-! :wave2: Please to meet you!

Thanks for the intro, Cal! ;)

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 10:15 PM
Doesn't the analogy of a day being as 1000 years to him imply rather explicitly that he does not experience time as we do? After such a comparison wouldn't it be common sense to take it for granted?
He does not concentrate on it as we do. Sometimes the day seems to go by very quickly, others it seems to drag on. This is what God is saying. And many of you are forgetting that he reversed it in the same sentence, saying. "...and a thousand years are as a day." He said both things. And the point of it all is that He is patient/longsuffering. Moreso than we could ever be. We measure time, God does not. That is all it means.

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 10:36 PM
I think you meant exegesis....... :rolleyes:
Nope. Exegesis involves interpreting what is there based on context, and the rest of the word. Eisegesis means reading your own beliefs into something.


So God is not omniscient?
God is completley omniscient. What we disagree on is the meaning of omniscience.


So, Adam caught Him by surprise?
Nope. God knew it was possible.


He didn't know that humanity would fall?
He knew it could, but not that is definitely would.


Jesus was a last minute decision? Damage control?
:nono:
Are you seriously going to tell me that you beleive God made the earth, Eden, and Adam and Eve, even though He knew for certain that it would all fall apart?

God decided that if humanity fell, He would send Christ. Then humanity fell, and He knew, then, that He would send Christ. But before the fall He did not know if He would ever have to, only that He might.


Sorry :Brandon: You are wrong about this one.
No, I'm not.


Just because God knows about our choices and decisions before we do, does not negate our free will.
If God knows that you are going to have filet mignon for dinner, tomorrow night, can you have anything other than filet mignon for dinner?


He demonstrates it in prophecy.
He demonstrates His sovereignty in prophecy. And sometimes, as with Nineveh, He changes His mind. And the prophecy goes unfulfilled.


He knew the decisions and choices that Pharoah would make prior to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt.
No, He didn't. He knew what Pharoah would most likely do, since He knew Pharoah's heart. But that doesn't mean He knew specifically how Pharoah would do it, or what specifically Pharoah would say.


He knew that Joseph's brothers would sell him off into slavery and that during the famine, they would seek help and Joseph would be in a high position in Egypt.....eventually helped his brothers and family.
When did God know what Joseph's brothers would do? Did God just know this would happen. or did He make it happen?


There are many other instances where God demonstrates His omniscience.
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.
I never said anything caught Him by surprise. He knows our hearts, and therefore knows all possibilities. He also knows that we might change, and what He would expect of us now may not be what He will expect of us in twenty years.

Lighthouse
May 11th, 2005, 10:39 PM
Nice. Sorry for agreeing with you, because I know that hurts your credibility in lighthouse's eyes, but well done. :BRAVO:
That is not what hurts her credibility. In fact, I fully believe she will come to an understanding of the truth, on this matter, in the near future.

allsmiles
May 12th, 2005, 11:29 AM
Lighthouse, have you seen Sin City yet?

docrob57
May 12th, 2005, 04:35 PM
I think god owes us big time.


I don't think that God owes you, me or anyone anything.


I don't know how I missed this before, but allsmiles has in this statement professed his belief in God. Not necessarily the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob mind you, but God nonetheless. So it is a start.

Examine the two statements above. Only allsmiles requires the existence of God in order for it to be true.

To say that "God does not owe me" is true regardless of whether or not God exists. If God does exist (at least the God of my understanding, see AA Big Book), then the statement is true. However, if God does not exist, the statement is equally true since something that does not exist cannot possibly owe me. Accordingly, regardless of your orientation toward God, you must admit that my statement is true.

To say that "God does owe me" however, is a different matter. If God does not exist, he cannot owe me, and, therefore, the statement is false. Only if God does exist can allsmiles statement possibly be true.

Since allsmiles would not speak falsely, it follows that he must at least believe there is a God.

Halleujah!

:juggle:

Agape4Robin
May 12th, 2005, 04:57 PM
QUOTE=LighthouseNope. Exegesis involves interpreting what is there based on context, and the rest of the word. Eisegesis means reading your own beliefs into something.
Thank you.....I learned a new word today! :BRAVO:

God is completley omniscient. What we disagree on is the meaning of omniscience.
Well then, let's define it shall we? :Poly:
Omniscient- (adjective) 1. Having intimate understanding, awareness and insight.
2. Possessed of universal or complete understanding.


Nope. God knew it was possible.


He knew it could, but not that is definitely would.
That flies in the face of the definition of omniscient.



Are you seriously going to tell me that you beleive God made the earth, Eden, and Adam and Eve, even though He knew for certain that it would all fall apart?
Sounds to me like you are questioning God's motives.
So what if He did know?


God decided that if humanity fell, He would send Christ. Then humanity fell, and He knew, then, that He would send Christ. But before the fall He did not know if He would ever have to, only that He might.
Let's take a look at Job. Do you think that God would have allowed satan to test Job if He knew that it could bring about Job's possible downfall? Or do you think that He knew Job well enough to know that Job was entirely faithful to Him?
How about Abraham? At a time when sacrificing children on the altar of Baal was common to the pagans, do you think that God's testing of Abraham was based on probability? The ram didn't come from out of nowhere, God sent it on it's journey to the place where Abraham and Issac would be, knowing that Abraham would be faithful to the point of actually sacrificing his own son at God's request.
Those "tests" were not to benefit God. Not meant for God to work out any "possibilities". Testing is meant for our benefit. To build our faith in God, not to build God's faith in us. To teach us to lean on God, not so that God would see what we might do.
The God I serve is completely and utterly in control. And He is outside of the realm of possibilities.






If God knows that you are going to have filet mignon for dinner, tomorrow night, can you have anything other than filet mignon for dinner?

If I like filet mignon....what is the difference? :juggle: Him knowing it doesn't mean that He forces me to have filet mignon.....the fact that I don't know it yet means that I still have free will to choose.


He demonstrates His sovereignty in prophecy. And sometimes, as with Nineveh, He changes His mind. And the prophecy goes unfulfilled.
The prophecy went unfullfilled? According to Nahum and Zephaniah, Ninevah was certainly judged. Those who repented were saved around the time of Jonah which was about 760 B.C., but according to the book of Nahum which was written around 612 B.C or Zephaniah which was written around 630 B.C. Ninevah was purged of its idolatrous practices and priests, the temple was cleansed and Passover was once again reinstated under King Josiah.
God didn't change His mind. He says in Malachai 3:6 " For I AM the Lord, I change not."
How can you trust a God who says something and then changes His mind? I trust the immutable, unchanging God. That doesn't mean that He is predictable, but reliable. ;)


No, He didn't. He knew what Pharoah would most likely do, since He knew Pharoah's heart. But that doesn't mean He knew specifically how Pharoah would do it, or what specifically Pharoah would say.
Exodus 6:6 "Therefore say to the children of Israel:'IAM the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with outstretched arm and with great judgements."
Sounds to me like He knew exactly what Pharoah would do as He had judgements prepared.

When did God know what Joseph's brothers would do? Did God just know this would happen. or did He make it happen?
He didn't cause it, but He did allow it because He knew the outcome would bring glory to Himself and strengthen Joseph's faith and the faith of his brothers. Tribulations bring us to a point of humility before God, realizing our weakness brings strength of faith in God. I should qualify that by saying ......for the believer.


I never said anything caught Him by surprise. He knows our hearts, and therefore knows all possibilities. He also knows that we might change, and what He would expect of us now may not be what He will expect of us in twenty years.

Why are you so intent on limiting God? He is without limits. His ways are not our ways and His timing is not our timing.
Your free will is intact. Go ahead and have that filet mignon :chew: ....or don't. It's still your choice. :thumb:

Lighthouse
May 12th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Lighthouse, have you seen Sin City yet?
Yes.

Lighthouse
May 12th, 2005, 08:45 PM
Thank you.....I learned a new word today! :BRAVO:
I learned it from godrulz.


Well then, let's define it shall we? :Poly:
Omniscient- (adjective) 1. Having intimate understanding, awareness and insight.
2. Possessed of universal or complete understanding.


That flies in the face of the definition of omniscient.
No it doesn't. Omniscience means to know all that is knowable. Right? My believing that the future is not knowable changes nothing of the definition of omniscience. Just like my belief that God cannot exist in Wonderland does not fly in the face of the definition of omnipresence.



Sounds to me like you are questioning God's motives.
So what if He did know?
Questioning God's motives? All I'm saying is from all I've learned of God I do not believe He would have done that. God strikes me as one who, if He did know, then He wouldn't have done it. He would have done something else


Let's take a look at Job. Do you think that God would have allowed satan to test Job if He knew that it could bring about Job's possible downfall? Or do you think that He knew Job well enough to know that Job was entirely faithful to Him?
Yes, and yes. Even moreso the latter, because God told Satan that exact thing.


How about Abraham? At a time when sacrificing children on the altar of Baal was common to the pagans, do you think that God's testing of Abraham was based on probability?
God did not know if Abraham trusted Him enough to sacrafice Isaac, in hopes of another heir. Abraham did.


The ram didn't come from out of nowhere, God sent it on it's journey to the place where Abraham and Issac would be, knowing that Abraham would be faithful to the point of actually sacrificing his own son at God's request.
:doh:

God caused the ram to go that way, when He knew Abraham was going to the altar.


Those "tests" were not to benefit God. Not meant for God to work out any "possibilities". Testing is meant for our benefit. To build our faith in God, not to build God's faith in us. To teach us to lean on God, not so that God would see what we might do.
Are you calling God a liar?


The God I serve is completely and utterly in control. And He is outside of the realm of possibilities.
Then you serve a false god.

The God I serve is in control too. And He also created free will beings, who could make choices. Choices that He does not have to specifically know in order to be in control.

If God knew who and who would not go to hell then the idea that He died for all people is a lie.



If I like filet mignon....what is the difference? :juggle: Him knowing it doesn't mean that He forces me to have filet mignon.....the fact that I don't know it yet means that I still have free will to choose.
You didn't answer the question. Can you have something other than filet mignon?


The prophecy went unfullfilled? According to Nahum and Zephaniah, Ninevah was certainly judged. Those who repented were saved around the time of Jonah which was about 760 B.C., but according to the book of Nahum which was written around 612 B.C or Zephaniah which was written around 630 B.C. Ninevah was purged of its idolatrous practices and priests, the temple was cleansed and Passover was once again reinstated under King Josiah.
God didn't change His mind. He says in Malachai 3:6 " For I AM the Lord, I change not."
Balderdash! Nineveh was not destroyed forty days after Jonah spoke the prophecy against them. It went unfulfilled, period.

I don't disagree that God's character doesn't change. But the decision to create teh Earth was a change.


How can you trust a God who says something and then changes His mind? I trust the immutable, unchanging God. That doesn't mean that He is predictable, but reliable. ;)
He changed His mind on how He would bring people into His kingdom. I trust Him completely. Because if He does change His mind, it is for the better. Even David thought God might change His mind when Nathan spoke the prophecy that David's first child wiht Bathsheba would die. David prayed, weeping, begging God to change His mind.

Do you know that the first person to speak of an immutable god was? It was Plato. Plato was not a follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.:nono: Plato was a pagan. He believed in the Greek gods. The ones that even the Greeks now say are mythological. No one ever presented the idea of an immutable god until then. And as far as I know, the first person to say that the God we serve is immutable was Augustine.


Exodus 6:6 "Therefore say to the children of Israel:'IAM the Lord; I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, I will rescue you from their bondage, and I will redeem you with outstretched arm and with great judgements."
Sounds to me like He knew exactly what Pharoah would do as He had judgements prepared.
He knew Pharoah wouldn't let them go, because He knew Pharoah's heart. That doesn't mean He knew exactly what Pharoah would say, verbatim. Or even that Pharoah's magicians would mimic what Moses did under God's power.


He didn't cause it, but He did allow it because He knew the outcome would bring glory to Himself and strengthen Joseph's faith and the faith of his brothers. Tribulations bring us to a point of humility before God, realizing our weakness brings strength of faith in God. I should qualify that by saying ......for the believer.
He didn't cause it? Are you serious? He gave Joseph the dreams for a reason. Because He planned to put Joseph over his brothers. And that was one way it coudl be done. God did it. He caused it.



Why are you so intent on limiting God? He is without limits. His ways are not our ways and His timing is not our timing.
I'm not limiting God. I perceive time as having limits. And to say God cannot impose limits upon Himself, if He so chooses is limiting God. Which is exactly what you're doing.

His ways are above our ways, not lower than our ways.


Your free will is intact. Go ahead and have that filet mignon :chew: ....or don't. It's still your choice. :thumb:
You still never answered the question.

allsmiles
May 13th, 2005, 08:27 AM
He does not concentrate on it as we do. Sometimes the day seems to go by very quickly, others it seems to drag on. This is what God is saying. And many of you are forgetting that he reversed it in the same sentence, saying. "...and a thousand years are as a day." He said both things. And the point of it all is that He is patient/longsuffering. Moreso than we could ever be. We measure time, God does not. That is all it means.

Okay, that makes sense. I still don't believe it, but in context that seems logical.

CapnFungi
May 13th, 2005, 08:30 AM
I think we all owe God

allsmiles
May 13th, 2005, 08:50 AM
What do you think we owe god for?

According to the christian religion he created us with one leg longer than the other and is ready to throw us into hell for having a limp. You could argue that it was man who rebelled in the first place (according to the christian bible) but it was god who created man in the first place with the ability to rebel.

Don't remember where I heard that analogy, but it's wholly unoriginal on my part.

CapnFungi
May 13th, 2005, 10:52 AM
What do you think we owe god for?

According to the christian religion he created us with one leg longer than the other and is ready to throw us into hell for having a limp. You could argue that it was man who rebelled in the first place (according to the christian bible) but it was god who created man in the first place with the ability to rebel.

Don't remember where I heard that analogy, but it's wholly unoriginal on my part.

You are right! I could argue but I'm not!
:bannana:

allsmiles
May 13th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Okay man, whatever boats your float.

Agape4Robin
May 14th, 2005, 09:43 AM
QUOTE=Lighthouse:

No it doesn't. Omniscience means to know all that is knowable. Right?
Wrong. Look it up. :Poly: I gave you the Mirriam-Webster definition of omniscient. I gave you the correct definition of the word.


My believing that the future is not knowable changes nothing of the definition of omniscience. Just like my belief that God cannot exist in Wonderland does not fly in the face of the definition of omnipresence.
Oh well then, you must just be special. Do you have your own language too? :rolleyes:



Questioning God's motives? All I'm saying is from all I've learned of God I do not believe He would have done that. God strikes me as one who, if He did know, then He wouldn't have done it. He would have done something else
Yes, Brandon, questioning God's motives. So what if God knew in advance of the fall of Adam in the garden? God has the full picture of the good that will be brought about in the face of such pain and devastation. "For we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This is not only true for that time, but for all time.

Yes, and yes. Even moreso the latter, because God told Satan that exact thing.
He said that Job was a blameless and upright man who feared God and shunned evil. The second time Satan asked God to test Job, God said that Job held fast to his integrity inspite of the first test. So then, why allow Satan a second go at him? Simply put, trials are God's faith in our faithfulness. But like I said before, they are not to enlighten God, but to strengthen our faith.


God did not know if Abraham trusted Him enough to sacrafice Isaac, in hopes of another heir. Abraham did. Issac was the result of the promise of God. There were no stipulations attached to this promise, therefore there would be no hope of another heir.
To say that God does not know such things is blasphemous, and shows a serious lack of faith.
Read Job 40. In verse 2 God says, "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
In verses 3-5, Job speaks.....but what will you say?
In verses 6-14, God spoke through the whirlwind and said, "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you and you will answer Me. 'Would you indeed annul My judgement? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? Have you an arrm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and array yourself with glory and beauty. Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud and humble him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together, bind their faces in hidden darkness.
Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can save you."

God showed me this. I am to quote it to you. Pray and ask God for wisdom. Pray that He might give you understanding.


:doh:

God caused the ram to go that way, when He knew Abraham was going to the altar.
That is what I said.

Are you calling God a liar?
How am I calling God a liar?



Then you serve a false god.
You should be very careful when you say things like that. Maybe you could get away with it when confronting beanieboy, wickwoman, Justin (Wiccan), Gnostic and the like, but you cannot level that accusation at me. I may not have perfect understanding of God, but I love Him and He knows me. I have the blood of Christ that bears witness to the God I serve.


The God I serve is in control too. And He also created free will beings, who could make choices. Choices that He does not have to specifically know in order to be in control.
So, humans are the only beings He created with free will?


If God knew who and who would not go to hell then the idea that He died for all people is a lie.
So, because Jesus shed His blood for all men, all men are going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? Or did He do that so that all men may choose to accept or reject Him? Thus allowing us to excercise our free will.




You didn't answer the question. Can you have something other than filet mignon?
I did answer the question. Sorry it didn't fit your "eisegesis". :rolleyes:

Balderdash! Nineveh was not destroyed forty days after Jonah spoke the prophecy against them. It went unfulfilled, period.
Prove it.


I don't disagree that God's character doesn't change. But the decision to create teh Earth was a change.
A change from what?


He changed His mind on how He would bring people into His kingdom. I trust Him completely. Because if He does change His mind, it is for the better. Even David thought God might change His mind when Nathan spoke the prophecy that David's first child wiht Bathsheba would die. David prayed, weeping, begging God to change His mind.
David hoped that God would change His mind. And yet God didn't change His mind. After the child died, David stopped crying, erased all signs of grief and went to worship the Lord. Why? Because God's grace was present. God knew the child would die, but even David's fasting and prayer did not change the heart or mind of God.
God's grace is the key, Brandon.(Partially quoted from study notes in my bible) Even through our suffering. Suffering that God allows for our ultimate good. God did not cause the child's death to punish the child but to exact justice for the sin of adultery that was committed. Death was required by the Law for both murder and adultery, even for a king. However, because of David's deep repentance without making excuse and, more significantly because of the promise of 2Samuel 5:12, God gave His grace even though David's family would experience the tragic effects of sin. Do you expect that God had to know this in order that He would make good on His promise in 2Samuel 5:12? I do.



Do you know that the first person to speak of an immutable god was? It was Plato. Plato was not a follower of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.:nono: Plato was a pagan. He believed in the Greek gods. The ones that even the Greeks now say are mythological. No one ever presented the idea of an immutable god until then. And as far as I know, the first person to say that the God we serve is immutable was Augustine.
And your point is....... :yawn:


He knew Pharoah wouldn't let them go, because He knew Pharoah's heart. That doesn't mean He knew exactly what Pharoah would say, verbatim. Or even that Pharoah's magicians would mimic what Moses did under God's power.
:LoJo: So, he knew Pharoah's heart, but not what was in it? Does the bible say that, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."?
I don't see the logic of your statement. Either He does or He doesn't.......which is it?



He didn't cause it? Are you serious? He gave Joseph the dreams for a reason. Because He planned to put Joseph over his brothers. And that was one way it coudl be done. God did it. He caused it.
Really? Where does it say that God sold Joseph into slavery? Because I don't have that in my bible. In my bible, it says that his brothers did it. Hhhmmmm........ :think:
I will say it again......God allowed it.

I'm not limiting God. I perceive time as having limits. And to say God cannot impose limits upon Himself, if He so chooses is limiting God. Which is exactly what you're doing.
Time has limits. God created the concept of time. Therefore, He is not constrained by it.
Was Jesus limited by His creation? Only yes, because He allowed it. But in His demonstration of His power (as God), did He not walk on the water? Did He not command the winds and the waves to cease? Did He not transfigure Himself on the mountain and talk with Elijah and Moses?

His ways are above our ways, not lower than our ways.
:duh:



You still never answered the question.
Yes I did. Apparently it doesn't conform to your "eisegisis". :rolleyes:

Lighthouse
May 14th, 2005, 04:57 PM
Wrong. Look it up. :Poly: I gave you the Mirriam-Webster definition of omniscient. I gave you the correct definition of the word.
And here I was, thinking the Biblical definition was the correcte definition. How silly of me.:rolleyes:


Oh well then, you must just be special. Do you have your own language too? :rolleyes:
Do you think I'm the only person who believes this?



Yes, Brandon, questioning God's motives. So what if God knew in advance of the fall of Adam in the garden? God has the full picture of the good that will be brought about in the face of such pain and devastation. "For we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28 This is not only true for that time, but for all time.
Of course all things work together for the good of those who love Him, because He works them together for good.

And would you care to explain why you think I'm questioning God's motives by believing He didn't know for certain that it would happen?

Or is it because I said that the God I know would not have done that?


He said that Job was a blameless and upright man who feared God and shunned evil. The second time Satan asked God to test Job, God said that Job held fast to his integrity inspite of the first test. So then, why allow Satan a second go at him? Simply put, trials are God's faith in our faithfulness. But like I said before, they are not to enlighten God, but to strengthen our faith.
No. It was because Satan is an idiot, and God knew he would get his face shoved in it, again, just like he did the first time. I'm sure God enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself. And GOd also knew that whatever Satan took away, He would replace, threefold.


Issac was the result of the promise of God. There were no stipulations attached to this promise, therefore there would be no hope of another heir.
Wrong.

Abraham was uncertain that Isaac would be born in the first place. God wanted to know if the birth of Isaac had caused Abraham's faith to strengthen, and if he trusted God to fulfill the promise, that another child would be born, if Isaac were dead.


To say that God does not know such things is blasphemous, and shows a serious lack of faith.
No it doesn't. I believe God was telling the turht when He said, "It never entered my mind..."


Read Job 40. In verse 2 God says, "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."
In verses 3-5, Job speaks.....but what will you say?
In verses 6-14, God spoke through the whirlwind and said, "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you and you will answer Me. 'Would you indeed annul My judgement? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? Have you an arrm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?
Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and array yourself with glory and beauty. Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud and humble him. Look on everyone who is proud and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together, bind their faces in hidden darkness.
Then I will confess to you that your own right hand can save you."

God showed me this. I am to quote it to you. Pray and ask God for wisdom. Pray that He might give you understanding.
Understanding of what? Nothing in that contradicts what I believe.


That is what I said.
Not exactly. But I was mostly pointing out to you that I do not believe God didn't do it, just because I don't believe He didn't know if Abraham would go through with it.


How am I calling God a liar?
He said, "Now I know..." You say He already knew.:juggle:



You should be very careful when you say things like that. Maybe you could get away with it when confronting beanieboy, wickwoman, Justin (Wiccan), Gnostic and the like, but you cannot level that accusation at me. I may not have perfect understanding of God, but I love Him and He knows me. I have the blood of Christ that bears witness to the God I serve.
Then you should get to know God better, and take Him at His word, instead of the word of others. Especially not the word of pagans, who worshipped many false gods.


So, humans are the only beings He created with free will?
When did I say that?:confused:


So, because Jesus shed His blood for all men, all men are going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven? Or did He do that so that all men may choose to accept or reject Him? Thus allowing us to excercise our free will.
:doh:

He did it so that all men may choose. I believe in free will, completely. Meaning that I am free to coose, or choose otherwise.


I did answer the question. Sorry it didn't fit your "eisegesis". :rolleyes:
No you didn't. It's a yes or no question, and you have not answered it.

It's not eisegesis to believe that God meant exactly what He said. It is eisegesis to read into it somehting that's not there, or to deny what is there in favor of current beliefs.


Prove it.
It's in the Bible. Jonah spoke the prophecy God gave him, saying that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, because of their wickedness. The citizens of Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy the city forty days after the prophecy was made.


A change from what?
From before He decided to create it.


David hoped that God would change His mind. And yet God didn't change His mind. After the child died, David stopped crying, erased all signs of grief and went to worship the Lord. Why? Because God's grace was present. God knew the child would die, but even David's fasting and prayer did not change the heart or mind of God.
God's grace is the key, Brandon.(Partially quoted from study notes in my bible) Even through our suffering. Suffering that God allows for our ultimate good. God did not cause the child's death to punish the child but to exact justice for the sin of adultery that was committed. Death was required by the Law for both murder and adultery, even for a king. However, because of David's deep repentance without making excuse and, more significantly because of the promise of 2Samuel 5:12, God gave His grace even though David's family would experience the tragic effects of sin. Do you expect that God had to know this in order that He would make good on His promise in 2Samuel 5:12? I do.
Why did David hope that God would change His mind, if God does not change His mind?

And what makes you think I believe the child was being punished?



And your point is....... :yawn:
The Bible does not speak of God as immutable, or timeless.


:LoJo: So, he knew Pharoah's heart, but not what was in it? Does the bible say that, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."?
I don't see the logic of your statement. Either He does or He doesn't.......which is it?
What you don't see is me saying what you said I said. But no surprise there. You're doing the same thing with the Bible.

God knew Pharoah's heart. He knew what was in it. But He did not know the specifics of how Pharoah would deny the request to let Israel go, or how many plagues He would have to send before Pharoah finally gave in.



Really? Where does it say that God sold Joseph into slavery? Because I don't have that in my bible. In my bible, it says that his brothers did it. Hhhmmmm........ :think:
I will say it again......God allowed it.
God worked it out so that it would happen. Of course, if you believe that God already knew it was going to happen, then nothing else could hav ahppened anyway.


Time has limits. God created the concept of time. Therefore, He is not constrained by it.
Wrong. God did not create the concept of time. Man created their own ideas about time, and many of them are false. Only one is true, and the one I believe is the one found in the Bible.

Can you show me in the Bible where it says God created time, or even the concept of time?


Was Jesus limited by His creation? Only yes, because He allowed it. But in His demonstration of His power (as God), did He not walk on the water? Did He not command the winds and the waves to cease? Did He not transfigure Himself on the mountain and talk with Elijah and Moses?
He allowed Himself to be limited, because He has the sovereignty to do so. And God becoming man is also another example of a change God made.


:duh:
You seem to think He is less logical than we are. That would make His ways lower than ours.



Yes I did. Apparently it doesn't conform to your "eisegisis". :rolleyes:
Like I said, earlier, it's a yes or no question. You still haven't answered it.

Can you do anything other than what God knows you are going to do?

Agape4Robin
May 14th, 2005, 07:50 PM
QUOTE=LighthouseAnd here I was, thinking the Biblical definition was the correcte definition. How silly of me.:rolleyes:
Oh, please then, enlighten me. Where may I find this biblical definition?

Do you think I'm the only person who believes this?
So, if others believe it, that makes it true? :doh:




Of course all things work together for the good of those who love Him, because He works them together for good.

And would you care to explain why you think I'm questioning God's motives by believing He didn't kno w for certain that it would happen?
Or is it because I said that the God I know would not have done that?
So, you possess the knowledge, and would arrogantly state with certainty, of what God would or would not have done? Perhaps it is you who does not know whom you worship. Be careful, lest your own wisdom will lead you astray.


No. It was because Satan is an idiot, and God knew he would get his face shoved in it, again, just like he did the first time. I'm sure God enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself. And GOd also knew that whatever Satan took away, He would replace, threefold.
This was not a test of Satan. Satan was only a tool. God does not use us against Satan, it is the other way around, my friend.


Wrong.
Abraham was uncertain that Isaac would be born in the first place. God wanted to know if the birth of Isaac had caused Abraham's faith to strengthen, and if he trusted God to fulfill the promise, that another child would be born, if Isaac were dead.
Abraham may have been uncertain? Nope. It was Sarah who was uncertain. She laughed when told of the promise that she would bear a son.

No it doesn't. I believe God was telling the turht when He said, "It never entered my mind..."Book, chapter and verse, please.


Understanding of what? Nothing in that contradicts what I believe.
And yet you would condemn God, as being limited, to be justified in your own wisdom.



Not exactly. But I was mostly pointing out to you that I do not believe God didn't do it, just because I don't believe He didn't know if Abraham would go through with it. :bang:

He said, "Now I know..." You say He already knew.:juggle: Book, chapter and verse, please!


Then you should get to know God better, and take Him at His word, instead of the word of others. Especially not the word of pagans, who worshipped many false gods.
You should heed your own advice. :thumb:

When did I say that?:confused:
What "beings" are you referring to?



:doh:

He did it so that all men may choose. I believe in free will, completely. Meaning that I am free to coose, or choose otherwise.
Nowhere in the bible does it represent God attains knowledge by reasoning, but everywhere as simply knowing. ( paraphrased from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Title: Omniscience.) See Acts 2:23.

No you didn't. It's a yes or no question, and you have not answered it.
This is not a yes or no subject. It was a complex question that required the answer I gave. You only tried to disguise it as a yes or no question, when you in fact know that such an issue as God's omnipotence is as difficult to define as the Trinity.

It's not eisegesis to believe that God meant exactly what He said. It is eisegesis to read into it somehting that's not there, or to deny what is there in favor of current beliefs.
It's called study. :Poly: Study to show yourself approved....not just read it like a Sunday novel.

It's in the Bible. Jonah spoke the prophecy God gave him, saying that Nineveh would be destroyed in forty days, because of their wickedness. The citizens of Nineveh repented, and God did not destroy the city forty days after the prophecy was made.
Did you read further than Jonah? If you did, you would find Nineveh's destruction detailed in the books of Nahum and Zephaniah. Just as I said.

From before He decided to create it.
Again, book, chapter and verse!



Why did David hope that God would change His mind, if God does not change His mind?
Have you never prayed to God for Him to change your circumstance or circumstances of those close to you? Haven't you hoped that a situation would result in what you wished would happen? David was no different. :nono:


And what makes you think I believe the child was being punished?
Just pointing out a fact.




The Bible does not speak of God as immutable, or timeless.
See Psalms 93:2 "Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting." Meaning: indefinate. The undefinable past, or future.



What you don't see is me saying what you said I said. But no surprise there. You're doing the same thing with the Bible.
Be careful when you point a finger like that...there are three more pointing at you!

God knew Pharoah's heart. He knew what was in it. But He did not know the specifics of how Pharoah would deny the request to let Israel go, or how many plagues He would have to send before Pharoah finally gave in.
Where is this documented? Or is this your "eisegisis"?


[/b]God worked it out so that it would happen. Of course, if you believe that God already knew it was going to happen, then nothing else could hav ahppened anyway.
The way you say this, you make us out to be mere puppets where God pulls the strings.


Wrong. God did not create the concept of time. Man created their own ideas about time, and many of them are false. Only one is true, and the one I believe is the one found in the Bible.
Can you show me in the Bible where it says God created time, or even the concept of time?
Genesis 1:3-5. "Then God said, 'Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."
:think: I believe that was the first established 24 hour period. And you know the rest of the story about each successive day.
Genesis 1:14. "Then God said,' Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years."
There you go, proof that God created time!


He allowed Himself to be limited, because He has the sovereignty to do so. And God becoming man is also another example of a change God made.
This does not show any change of God's mind or character.


You seem to think He is less logical than we are. That would make His ways lower than ours.
No hun, that's you!



Like I said, earlier, it's a yes or no question. You still haven't answered it.

Can you do anything other than what God knows you are going to do?
ok, fine.....I'll bite.....
No.

Lighthouse
May 15th, 2005, 02:33 AM
Oh, please then, enlighten me. Where may I find this biblical definition?
Are you telling me that Omniscience does not mean "knowing all that is knowable?"

If so, then we disagree on more than what is knowable.

So, if others believe it, that makes it true? :doh:
No, but if the Bible says it, it is true.




So, you possess the knowledge, and would arrogantly state with certainty, of what God would or would not have done? Perhaps it is you who does not know whom you worship. Be careful, lest your own wisdom will lead you astray.
I quit relying on my own understanding, and open theism is where I was led.


This was not a test of Satan. Satan was only a tool. God does not use us against Satan, it is the other way around, my friend.
1] I never said it was a rtest of Satan.
2] God does not use Satan against us.


Abraham may have been uncertain? Nope. It was Sarah who was uncertain. She laughed when told of the promise that she would bear a son.
You're right.

But Abraham did try to bargain with God, thinking he might change His mind, on the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah... Genesis 18:23-33


Book, chapter and verse, please.
Jeremiah 19:5


And yet you would condemn God, as being limited, to be justified in your own wisdom.
Do what?


:bang:
Is there a problem?


Book, chapter and verse, please!
Genesis 22:12


You should heed your own advice. :thumb:
Name the pagan who thought of open theism...


What "beings" are you referring to?
In that instance I was referring to humans, but angels have free will as well. And so do animals. Anything sentient has free will.



Nowhere in the bible does it represent God attains knowledge by reasoning, but everywhere as simply knowing. ( paraphrased from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Title: Omniscience.) See Acts 2:23.
Really?:rolleyes:

What does that verse prove? Only that God determines things.


This is not a yes or no subject. It was a complex question that required the answer I gave. You only tried to disguise it as a yes or no question, when you in fact know that such an issue as God's omnipotence is as difficult to define as the Trinity.
I do not think Omniscience, or Trinity are hard to define.


It's called study. :Poly: Study to show yourself approved....not just read it like a Sunday novel.
I have studied, and I have never found God saying that He had exhaustive foreknowledge.


Did you read further than Jonah? If you did, you would find Nineveh's destruction detailed in the books of Nahum and Zephaniah. Just as I said.
Did it happen forty days after Jonah's prophecy?


Again, book, chapter and verse!
Are you daft? If a decision is not a change, what is?!:bang:



Have you never prayed to God for Him to change your circumstance or circumstances of those close to you? Haven't you hoped that a situation would result in what you wished would happen? David was no different. :nono:
I've never met anyone as stubbornly ignorant as you.

God said that David's child would die. David was not merely praying that circumstances would change, but that God would change His mind!


Just pointing out a fact.
The child was not being punished. David and Bathsheba were. And the fact that God did not have david condemned to death is definitely a change of mind for God, since He had decreed that adulteres be put to death.




See Psalms 93:2 "Your throne is established from of old; You are from everlasting." Meaning: indefinate. The undefinable past, or future.
How sure are you that that is what everlasting means?



Be careful when you point a finger like that...there are three more pointing at you!
What are you, a third grader?


Where is this documented? Or is this your "eisegisis"?
Where is it documented that He did?


The way you say this, you make us out to be mere puppets where God pulls the strings.
We're not. That's my point.


Genesis 1:3-5. "Then God said, 'Let there be light; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."
:think: I believe that was the first established 24 hour period. And you know the rest of the story about each successive day.
Genesis 1:14. "Then God said,' Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years."
There you go, proof that God created time!
No. It is only proof that God created a measurement of time. Not time itself.


This does not show any change of God's mind or character.
I never said it did. Also, God's character never changes. I have never said that it did.


No hun, that's you!
How so? Timelessness is the illogical concept. Not open theism.



ok, fine.....I'll bite.....
No.
Then how is it free will? If you cannot choose otherwise, how is it that your will is free?

Frank Ernest
May 15th, 2005, 04:57 AM
And just what does He owe us?
Good question! Let me see if I have this straight:
God is an all-powerful Being. He created us. Without Him there would be no life, either spiritual or physical. However, the implication of the question is that God did something erroneous in creating us and knows He did. (I trashed the part about Bible prohibition. Silly ploy to disarm opposition.)

Since we didn't ASK to be created (someone else will have to deal with the "logic" of that one), the All-Powerful Being Who did "owes" us something. Sooooo, the Being Who created us incurred some form of "debt" to us for creating us. Got it!

The One Who gave us existence "owes" us for ... ?

Not giving us non-existence (another bit of "logic" I leave to someone else)?
Not giving us eternal reward without effort (ummmm, there's a goodie!)?
Not making us simple slaves to His will (reward without effort again)?
Not giving us license to defy Him without consequences (I think we're getting closer!).

All for now. I leave it to others to contribute ideas as to what this "debt" might be, how it was incurred, and how God can "rehabilitate" Himself (in our eyes, of course).

Delmar
May 15th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Doesn't the analogy of a day being as 1000 years to him imply rather explicitly that he does not experience time as we do? After such a comparison wouldn't it be common sense to take it for granted?
Nor does a 90 year experience time the way a 5 year old does. The 90 year old understands that a one hour car ride isn't really going to take forever. This, however, does not mean the 90 year old exsists outside of time.

Delmar
May 15th, 2005, 05:53 AM
I think you meant exegesis....... :rolleyes:

So God is not omniscient? So, Adam caught Him by surprise? He didn't know that humanity would fall? Jesus was a last minute decision? Damage control?
:nono:

Sorry :Brandon: You are wrong about this one. Just because God knows about our choices and decisions before we do, does not negate our free will. He demonstrates it in prophecy. He knew the decisions and choices that Pharoah would make prior to Moses leading the Israelites out of Egypt. He knew that Joseph's brothers would sell him off into slavery and that during the famine, they would seek help and Joseph would be in a high position in Egypt.....eventually helped his brothers and family. There are many other instances where God demonstrates His omniscience.
However, since we do not know the future, our free will remains intact and God is still omniscient. Nothing catches the Lord by surprise. Not our choices, not our decisions or our actions.I'm sure God has a really good idea what choices every man will make because he knows every mans heart. Where does the Bible imply that God knows every detail of every mans choices before they make those choices as though it had already happened.

Agape4Robin
May 15th, 2005, 01:17 PM
I'm sure God has a really good idea what choices every man will make because he knows every mans heart. Where does the Bible imply that God knows every detail of every mans choices before they make those choices as though it had already happened.
A really good idea?

Ps 147:5 "[God's] understanding is infinite."

Ezekiel 11:5 " Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the Lord: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind."."

Acts 15:18 "Known to God from all eternity are His works."

Romans 11:33 "Oh the depths of His riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out"

1 John 3:20 "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."

Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account."

When I say that God is omniscient, I mean that He knows all that there is to know. There is nothing outside the scope of His conception, understanding or attention. God neither studies or learns for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Neither does probablity exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective. There is no maybe. There are no potentially infinite realities as the faux-hip coffee houses or comic book writers are so fond of speculating. There is one reality and God knows it in its entirety, as it exist by, through and for Him. God is neither surprised by the way the world works itself out, nor shocked by the choices we make. Omniscience is the passive end of His providence- the working out of God's predestined purpose via His sovereignty- in that it is by the means which providence can exist, but neither the engine, nor the fuel that brings about His action.(Quoted from the Blue letter Bible)

The term Omniscience does not occur in scripture either in its nominal or its adjectival form.
In the OT it is expressed with such words as da'ath, binah, tebhunah, chokhmah: also "seeing", and "hearing", "the eye" and "the ear" occur as the figures for the knowledge of God , as "arm, hand or finger" serve to express His power. In the NT are found ginoskein, gnosis, eidenai, and sophia in the same connection.

It extends to all the divisions of time, the past, present and future alike. (Job 14:17, Psalms 56:8, Isaiah 41:22-24, 44:6-8, Jeramiah 1:5, Hosea 13:12, and Malachai 3:16.)

God's Omniscience and Human Free-will

Since scripture includes in the objects of the divine knowledge also the issue of the excercise of free-will on the part of man, the problem arises, how the contingent character of such decisions and the certainty of the divine knowledge can coexist. It is true that the knowledge of God and the puposing will of God are distinct, and that not the former but the latter determines the certainty of the outcome. Consequently, the divine omniscience in such cases adds nor detracts nothing in reguard to the certainty of the event. God's omniscience does not produce but presupposes the certainty by which the problem is raised. At the same time, precisely because omniscience presupposes certainty, it appears to exclude every conception of contingency in the free acts of man, such as would render the latter in their very essence undetermined. The knowledge of the issue must have a fixed point of certainty to terminate upon, if it is to be knowledge at all. Those who make the essence of freedom absolute indeterminateness must, therefore, exempt this class of events from the scope of the divine omniscience. But this is contrary to all the testimony of Scripture, which distinctly makes God's absolute knowledge extend to such acts. (Acts 2:23) It has been attempted to construe a peculiar form of the divine knowledge, which would relate to this class of acts specifically, the so-called scientia media, to be distinguished from the scientia necessaria, which has for its object, God Himself, and the scientia libera which terminates upon the certainties of the world outside of God, as determined by His freewill. This scientia media would then be based on God's foresight of the outcome of the free choice of man.It would involve a knowledge of receptivity, a contribution of the sum total of what God knows derived from observation on His part of the world-process. That is to say that it would be knowledge a posteriori in essence, though not in point of time. It is, however, difficult to see how such a knowledge can be possible in God, when the outcome is psychologically undetermined and undeterminable. The knowledge could originate no sooner than the determination originates through the free decision of man. It would, therefore, necessarily become an a posteriori knowledge in time as well as in essence. The appeal to God's eternity as bringing Him equally near to the future as well as to the present and enabling Him to see the future decisions of man's free will as theough they were present cannot remove this difficulty, for when once the observation and knowledge of God are made dependant on any temporal issue, the divine eternity itself is thereby virtually denied. Nothing remains but to recognize that God's eternal knowledge of the outcome of the freewill choices of man implies that there enters into these choices, notwithstanding their free character, an element of predetermination, to which the knowledge of God can attach itself.
(Quoted from: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. "Omniscience")

It is my understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before I do), but in that His knowledge is not preventive or causative. His knowing does not change or cause the outcome of my choices. Although I am a part of the plan of God.
For instance, I know that the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it or preventing it from rising by knowing it will happen. Likewise, if I place a bowl of ice-cream in front of my child and a bowl of brussel sprouts, I know which will be chosen by him. He will choose the ice cream. My knowing this ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. Knowing that choice has no effect on him when he makes it.

Delmar
May 15th, 2005, 01:53 PM
It is my understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before I do), but in that His knowledge is not preventive or causative. His knowing does not change or cause the outcome of my choices. Although I am a part of the plan of God.
For instance, I know that the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it or preventing it from rising by knowing it will happen. Likewise, if I place a bowl of ice-cream in front of my child and a bowl of brussel sprouts, I know which will be chosen by him. He will choose the ice cream. My knowing this ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. Knowing that choice has no effect on him when he makes it.WishI had time to respond in detail right now but I'll try to get to it this PM. I know it is your understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before you do)but I don't believe the scriputers you site imply that. It do believe he knows thoose choices as soon as you do.

Agape4Robin
May 15th, 2005, 02:02 PM
WishI had time to respond in detail right now but I'll try to get to it this PM. I know it is your understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before you do)but I don't believe the scriputers you site imply that. It do believe he knows thoose choices as soon as you do.
Perhaps in the sense of the ice cream/ brussel sprouts analogy. But God is not limited to time because we are. Like I said, in God's knowledge, as it pertains to our free will choice, it is neither causative or preventive. In the event I make a bad choice ( and I have), God did not cause that choice nor prevent it, but before I was born put in place His sovereign grace that I could choose to repent and be forgiven.

God_Is_Truth
May 15th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Perhaps in the sense of the ice cream/ brussel sprouts analogy. But God is not limited to time because we are. Like I said, in God's knowledge, as it pertains to our free will choice, it is neither causative or preventive. In the event I make a bad choice ( and I have), God did not cause that choice nor prevent it, but before I was born put in place His sovereign grace that I could choose to repent and be forgiven.

have you ever heard of the contingency incomptability thesis?

Agape4Robin
May 15th, 2005, 04:47 PM
have you ever heard of the contingency incomptability thesis?
I don't think so.....what is it?

God_Is_Truth
May 15th, 2005, 05:46 PM
I don't think so.....what is it?

it is a combination of the contingency argument and the incompatability argument. for a thorough explanation of it as well as a strong case for the OV, i suggest reading the following paper written by Greg Boyd and two others.

http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf

a quick explanation of the contingency incomptability thesis would be thus:

since we have libertarian free will, each possible choice is a contingency until we make a decision. that is, every thing we could possibly do has a real possibility of being chosen. thus, all choices are contingent. the incomptability part states that real contingency is incomtabile with a closed/settled future (one that God foreknows exhaustively, ie. perfectly and completely, nothing is open) because of a logical contradiction. it states that if all choices are contingent, then each has a % chance of being chosen. however, if God knows what choice will be chosen ahead of time, then the only choice which can be picked is that one, giving it a 100% chance of being picked and giving every other choice a 0% chance. the contradiction would therefore be that the choices have both some % and 0% at the same time. thus, contingency is incompatible with a settled future because it leads to a contradiction.

it's explained more easily in the article in case that doesn't make sense :)

Agape4Robin
May 15th, 2005, 07:34 PM
it is a combination of the contingency argument and the incompatability argument. for a thorough explanation of it as well as a strong case for the OV, i suggest reading the following paper written by Greg Boyd and two others.

http://www.alanrhoda.net/papers/opentheism.pdf

a quick explanation of the contingency incomptability thesis would be thus:

since we have libertarian free will, each possible choice is a contingency until we make a decision. that is, every thing we could possibly do has a real possibility of being chosen. thus, all choices are contingent. the incomptability part states that real contingency is incomtabile with a closed/settled future (one that God foreknows exhaustively, ie. perfectly and completely, nothing is open) because of a logical contradiction. it states that if all choices are contingent, then each has a % chance of being chosen. however, if God knows what choice will be chosen ahead of time, then the only choice which can be picked is that one, giving it a 100% chance of being picked and giving every other choice a 0% chance. the contradiction would therefore be that the choices have both some % and 0% at the same time. thus, contingency is incompatible with a settled future because it leads to a contradiction.

it's explained more easily in the article in case that doesn't make sense :)
I wish I could say that I subscribe to one affiliation or another, but the truth is, I am simply a christian who is searching for the truth. My foundation is the bible and Christ. I go to a Baptist church because I like the people there and the pastor is good. I listen to christian talk radio most of the time and I like Pastors such as Greg Laurie, John MacArthur, Adrian Rogers, Kay Arthur, A.W.Tozer, Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley and Focus on the Family by Dr. James Dobson. I also like The Way of The Master show with Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

I try to keep an open mind and pray for God's guidance and wisdom. Nothing beats Bible study and TOL is great for interacting with others and sharing ideas. I want to bring honor and glory to God. Simple? Yeah, I'm not a real complex person. God knows my heart and no amount of name calling or condescention will change what I believe to be true through scripture and in my heart. Thank you for the web site, I'll check it out.

God bless! :wave2:

Lighthouse
May 15th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Well, You did a pretty good job of explaining it, from my POV, G_I_T.

Agape4Robin
May 15th, 2005, 07:56 PM
As for you, :Brandon: I will reply to your post later. :D

Agape4Robin
May 16th, 2005, 05:08 PM
[QUOTE=Lighthouse]Are you telling me that Omniscience does not mean "knowing all that is knowable?"

If so, then we disagree on more than what is knowable.
Knowable for GOD!



No, but if the Bible says it, it is true.
That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:





I quit relying on my own understanding, and open theism is where I was led.
Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:


1] I never said it was a rtest of Satan.
2] God does not use Satan against us.
You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.



You're right.
:shocked: :noway:

But Abraham did try to bargain with God, thinking he might change His mind, on the destruction of Sodom and Gommorah... Genesis 18:23-33
Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:


Jeremiah 19:5
What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......



Do what?
Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:





Genesis 22:12
So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?



Name the pagan who thought of open theism...
Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.



In that instance I was referring to humans, but angels have free will as well. And so do animals. Anything sentient has free will.Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:



Really?:rolleyes:

What does that verse prove? Only that God determines things.
:duh:

I do not think Omniscience, or Trinity are hard to define.
:rolleyes:



I have studied, and I have never found God saying that He had exhaustive foreknowledge.

You should study more....... :rolleyes:

Did it happen forty days after Jonah's prophecy?
Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.


Are you daft? If a decision is not a change, what is?!:bang:When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....



I've never met anyone as stubbornly ignorant as you.
:kiss: and I love you too!


God said that David's child would die. David was not merely praying that circumstances would change, but that God would change His mind!
Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:


The child was not being punished. David and Bathsheba were. And the fact that God did not have david condemned to death is definitely a change of mind for God, since He had decreed that adulteres be put to death.
2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.



How sure are you that that is what everlasting means?
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :Poly:



What are you, a third grader?
;) :kiss:



Where is it documented that He did?
And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:



No. It is only proof that God created a measurement of time. Not time itself.
Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?

I never said it did. Also, God's character never changes. I have never said that it did.
You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?


How so? Timelessness is the illogical concept. Not open theism.
Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.



Then how is it free will? If you cannot choose otherwise, how is it that your will is free?
:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:

Lighthouse
May 16th, 2005, 05:54 PM
Knowable for GOD!
Could God know something that does not exist?



That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:
Do what? I said that because you acted like I was the only one. And then I said that the Bible teaches it, because it does.





Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:
Are you really that daft? I was being led, by God, apart from the doctrines of men, into this arena of thinking. It simply occured to me that the God I know would work this way. Well, that He would at least choose not to know who would and who would not go to hell, especially since Christ died for all men. Then I heard someone else say somehting similar, and I was shocked. I had considered the death of Christ for all men, and Abraham sacraficing Isaac, and "The Fall," all the while wondering why God would do these things if He already knew what the outcome would be. It made more sense that He did not know. And then I was shown, Biblically, that He did not know. He was preparing me before I even realized it.


You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.
I've always thought it was funny that Satan thought he could win. He's a fool, and it's fun to laugh at him. He's already lost the war, but he keeps fighting. What a tool!



:shocked: :noway:
What?


Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:
No. What does that ahve to do with it? God said He would look to see... I wonder why He said that.:think:


What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......
He already said He never commanded it. The quote was that He never even thought that people ould do such a thing.



Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono:
Bull:shut: God said what He said. It wasn't a figure of speech.





So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?
1] I never said God was not omniscient.
2] God knew Abraham feared Him, but He did not know how far Abraham's faith would go.
3] Tests are for a multitude of reasons.
4] What question are you talking about?
5] God very well may have chosen to not know where Adam and Eve were, for the sake of letting them reveal themselves.
6] Yes, I can. God takes risks, but does not make mistakes.



Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.
And? They are Christians. And they found the the truth of it in the Bible. Timelessness is not found in the Bible, anywhere.:nono:


Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:
Do you thik God controls the animals like puppets? They are driven by instincts, yes, but they are not controlled by an outside force.



:duh:
And?


:rolleyes:
Do you have a problem with that?



You should study more....... :rolleyes:
Why do you think I come here? Can you show me where exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events is one of God's attributes? Where in the Bible?


Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented.
And? The prophecy went unfulfilled, didn't it? I'm guessing you use the NKJV.

Now, did God know they would repent? If so, why not just call them to repentance? Why did He "threaten" them? Does God threaten? Or does He promise? All the story of Nineveh shows us in light of Jeremiah 18:8-9 is that God keeps His promises. And of course, the verses in Jer. show that He sometimes repents of a promise, under certain conditions. So He repented of one promise, and in so doing kept another.:think:


When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated....
When He decided to create it. He hadn't decided to create it before that, had He? That was a change. And, once again, if you look above to the previous contention, God changed His mind in regard to Nineveh.



:kiss: and I love you too!
I'm reminded f the inscription on the paddle my dad used to have...


Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:
So? This doesn't change the fact that David, a man after God's own heart, thought He might.


2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.
What exactly was in David's heart at that time? Anything you take issue with? Anything that would make one think God would not want David to be king?

Speaking of Israel's kings and God wanting, or not wanting, them... God regretted that He had made Saul king. How could God regret if He knew what was going to happen? oR is this another figure of speech?

And speaking of God's regrets, He regretted that He had made man, which is what led to the flood.



According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :Poly:
God is everlasting, and eternal. So? How is that affected by the future not existing yet, and the past having passed into nonexistence?



;) :kiss:
Well?



And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:
And another refusal to answer a question.


[quote]Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?
He created all created things. The Father did not create the Son, the Son is uncreated. God did not create darkness, it was already there. Same with time.


You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?
Who says He hasn't?

Anything specific you're getting at, here?


Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. [i]Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.
Then try to figure it out. Go ahead. It is completely logically incompatible with free will. And is impossible, unless there are endless dimensions of time so that all things can continue happening, simultaneously, for all eternity...:dizzy:



:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think:
Truth about God's omniscience? The Bible is clear on the subject. And you have already admitted that it is impossible to eat anything other than what God knows you're going to eat, if He knows it, that is...

Agape4Robin
May 16th, 2005, 06:54 PM
[QUOTE=Lighthouse]Could God know something that does not exist?
The cross didn't exist as an instrument of death in the time of Isaiah, yet he prophesied Christ's death upon it.


Do what? I said that because you acted like I was the only one. And then I said that the Bible teaches it, because it does. According to your literal eisegisis, it might.




Are you really that daft?
I am not stupid, Brandon. Stop saying that or this conversation is over! :sozo2:


I was being led, by God, apart from the doctrines of men, into this arena of thinking. It simply occured to me that the God I know would work this way. Well, that He would at least choose not to know who would and who would not go to hell, especially since Christ died for all men. Then I heard someone else say somehting similar, and I was shocked. I had considered the death of Christ for all men, and Abraham sacraficing Isaac, and "The Fall," all the while wondering why God would do these things if He already knew what the outcome would be. It made more sense that He did not know. And then I was shown, Biblically, that He did not know. He was preparing me before I even realized it.
Good for you........... :BRAVO:

I've always thought it was funny that Satan thought he could win. He's a fool, and it's fun to laugh at him. He's already lost the war, but he keeps fighting. What a tool!
You should know your enemy.



He already said He never commanded it. The quote was that He never even thought that people ould do such a thing.
Context......
Don't read each verse by itself......compare it with the texts prior to and following that one verse.



Bull:shut: God said what He said. It wasn't a figure of speech.
context, context, context..................





1] I never said God was not omniscient.
2] God knew Abraham feared Him, but He did not know how far Abraham's faith would go.
3] Tests are for a multitude of reasons.
4] What question are you talking about?
5] God very well may have chosen to not know where Adam and Eve were, for the sake of letting them reveal themselves.
6] Yes, I can. God takes risks, but does not make mistakes.
1. Ok........
2. :nono:
3. None of which have to do with God's enrichment.
4. :bang:
5. So, you agree that God did in fact know where they were.
6. Risks carry no consequences of failure? Is failure a mistake?


And? They are Christians. And they found the the truth of it in the Bible. Timelessness is not found in the Bible, anywhere.:nono:
They are? Are you sure?


Do you thik God controls the animals like puppets? They are driven by instincts, yes, but they are not controlled by an outside force.
Then explain how the animals got to the Ark.

Oh wait, the bible does.....Genesis 6:20 " Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive."


Why do you think I come here? Can you show me where exhaustive foreknowledge of all future events is one of God's attributes? Where in the Bible?
I do, but you disregard the information I have supplied.


And? The prophecy went unfulfilled, didn't it? I'm guessing you use the NKJV.
Nope....see Nahum and Zephaniah....we've been through this already. :doh:

Now, did God know they would repent? If so, why not just call them to repentance? Why did He "threaten" them? Does God threaten? Or does He promise? All the story of Nineveh shows us in light of Jeremiah 18:8-9 [if you ignore everything else] is that God keeps His promises. And of course, the verses in Jer. show that He sometimes repents of a promise, under certain conditions. So He repented of one promise, and in so doing kept another.:think:
You really make God out to be pretty wish washy.


When He decided to create it. He hadn't decided to create it before that, had He? That was a change. And, once again, if you look above to the previous contention, God changed His mind in regard to Nineveh.
And so you have exhaustive knowledge? I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures where it talks of God deciding to not create the heavens and the earth before He actually did so.



I'm reminded f the inscription on the paddle my dad used to have...
:rolleyes:

So? This doesn't change the fact that David, a man after God's own heart, thought He might.
The man who murdered a man so that he could have his wife......he was after more than God's own heart.


What exactly was in David's heart at that time? Anything you take issue with? Anything that would make one think God would not want David to be king?
Only that God knew of this future event...before it happened.

Speaking of Israel's kings and God wanting, or not wanting, them... God regretted that He had made Saul king. How could God regret if He knew what was going to happen? oR is this another figure of speech?

And speaking of God's regrets, He regretted that He had made man, which is what led to the flood.
Apparently you don't have kids......you wouldn't understand the analogy about being disappointed in them....talk to me when you do.



God is everlasting, and eternal. So? How is that affected by the future not existing yet, and the past having passed into nonexistence? :doh: You just don't get it......



And another refusal to answer a question.
I have answered it....




He created all created things. The Father did not create the Son, the Son is uncreated. God did not create darkness, it was already there. Same with time.
He used the elements of dark and light to create a point to which time can be measured.

Who says He hasn't?

Anything specific you're getting at, here?


Then try to figure it out. Go ahead. It is completely logically incompatible with free will. And is impossible, unless there are endless dimensions of time so that all things can continue happening, simultaneously, for all eternity...:dizzy:
I said Incomprehensable but not improbable.

Truth about God's omniscience? The Bible is clear on the subject. And you have already admitted that it is impossible to eat anything other than what God knows you're going to eat, if He knows it, that is...
Ok then, I change my mind.....I can eat anything I want, filet mignon or not!

Lighthouse
May 16th, 2005, 07:34 PM
The cross didn't exist as an instrument of death in the time of Isaiah, yet he prophesied Christ's death upon it.
Prove it. No cross was ever mentioned.


According to your literal eisegisis, it might.
What's wrong with taking it literally?




I am not stupid, Brandon. Stop saying that or this conversation is over! :sozo2:
Then quit obfuscating that black and white of Scripture.


Good for you........... :BRAVO:
Does that not seem interesting to you?


You should know your enemy.
What's that supposed to mean?



Context......
Don't read each verse by itself......compare it with the texts prior to and following that one verse.
I do read in context.



context, context, context..................
Can you prove it's contextually wrong?





1. Ok........
2. :nono:
3. None of which have to do with God's enrichment.
4. :bang:
5. So, you agree that God did in fact know where they were.
6. Risks carry no consequences of failure? Is failure a mistake?
Definitely wrong on point 2, and the answer is no on point 5. If He didn't want to know, then He did not know. And as for point six, Is God going to bring all people into heaven? Is that a failure? Is it a mistake?


They are? Are you sure?
Yes. The guy who wrote, The Openness of God also published a book entitled, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a collection of letters sent back and forth between him and his dad. His dad was an atheist, and his son was trying to find a way to reach his dad, so he offered to answer all of his questions. His dad became a Christian, during this discourse, and that is what caused Greg to publish the letters. Bob Enyart is also a proponent of Open Theism, and he is a Christian. He's the pastor of Denver Bible Church. Knight, the owner of this site, goes to that church. Knight is an open theist. He is also a Christian. The same goes for all of the administrators, and the moderators.


Then explain how the animals got to the Ark.
God intervened. But He isn't constantly controlling every movement of every animal, currently.:nono:


Oh wait, the bible does.....Genesis 6:20 " Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive."
See.


I do, but you disregard the information I have supplied.
You're not making a very good argument if I can refute it so easily.


Nope....see Nahum and Zephaniah....we've been through this already. :doh:
Don't be obtuse. The bottom line is that it was prophecied they would be destroyed in forty days, and they weren't. Get over it.


You really make God out to be pretty wish washy.
:rolleyes:


And so you have exhaustive knowledge? I haven't read anywhere in the scriptures where it talks of God deciding to not create the heavens and the earth before He actually did so.
Wait, you think God decided to create the heavens and the earth before He decided to create the heavens and the earth? Because, that's what I was talking about.



:rolleyes:
Don't worry about it.


The man who murdered a man so that he could have his wife......he was after more than God's own heart.
Wrong. He murdered him so that no one would know they committed adultery, because she was pregnant, and Uriah wouldn't come home to sleep with his wife.


Only that God knew of this future event...before it happened.
Have you proven that? Was it in David's heart, at the time?


Apparently you don't have kids......you wouldn't understand the analogy about being disappointed in them....talk to me when you do.
I know exactly what God means. He was dissapointed. It isn't an analogy, or a metaphor. It's literal truth.


:doh: You just don't get it......
No, you don't get it.



I have answered it....
No you didn't. This isn't the same question that toook you five times to answer. It's another one. And now, this is your third chance to answer it.




He used the elements of dark and light to create a point to which time can be measured.
And?


I said Incomprehensable but not improbable.
It's completely improbable. It makes no sense.


Ok then, I change my mind.....I can eat anything I want, filet mignon or not!
Bull. You're a horrible liar, Robin.

Agape4Robin
May 17th, 2005, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=Lighthouse]Prove it. No cross was ever mentioned.
I was thinking of Deuteronomy 21:23, that proves or is contrasted by Galatians 3:13. And of course you know of the prophecies concerning Christ, written in the Psalms and Isaiah. However, the whole of the OT shows the foreshadowing of Christ.

What's wrong with taking it literally?
I can agree that there are places in scripture that can be taken in its literal sense. But don't you know that the bible has hidden treasure? Golden nuggets, pearls of wisdom? Our english translated bible is only a translation, it is only parts of stories....pieces of the whole picture that only God holds, but in His grace and wisdom, has revealed great truths of which even the simplest truths are tailored for finite minds such as ours. It's God's revelation of Himself to us. Can man ever contemplate the wholeness of God? Can we capture Him with words? Faith is believing though we cannot see. I have faith that if God designed me with free will, then He would choose not to impose on it. His desire is that I would love Him and trust Him completely....even when I don't understand. My desire is that I fulfill His will for my life, to be the woman He designed me to be.





Then quit obfuscating that black and white of Scripture.
And you literalize and oversimplify.


Does that not seem interesting to you? :nono:



What's that supposed to mean?Only that Satan takes you seriously. While you are laughing at him, he is plotting your downfall. While you may not lose your salvation, he can still use you to bring shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Any good soldier knows when to take his enemy seriously. That is why scripture has supplied our battle gear. Have you ever done a study on this? It's quite fascinating.




I do read in context.



Can you prove it's contextually wrong?I did..... :doh:




Definitely wrong on point 2, and the answer is no on point 5. If He didn't want to know, then He did not know. And as for point six, Is God going to bring all people into heaven? Is that a failure? Is it a mistake?
As for point #2, I told you already that "tests" are not for God's benefit! God has exhaustive knowledge. There is nothing more for Him to learn! Point #5, in order for God to choose not to know, on what would He base the decision to choose?
On point #6 you said God takes risks......what risk is without the possibility of mistakes?
God a failure? Makes mistakes? :nono:
God is no "risk-taker"......He is certain of His plans.


Yes. The guy who wrote, The Openness of God also published a book entitled, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a collection of letters sent back and forth between him and his dad. His dad was an atheist, and his son was trying to find a way to reach his dad, so he offered to answer all of his questions. His dad became a Christian, during this discourse, and that is what caused Greg to publish the letters. Bob Enyart is also a proponent of Open Theism, and he is a Christian. He's the pastor of Denver Bible Church. Knight, the owner of this site, goes to that church. Knight is an open theist. He is also a Christian. The same goes for all of the administrators, and the moderators.And not every christian is right about all matters concerning God. Me included.

God intervened. But He isn't constantly controlling every movement of every animal, currently.:nono:


See.Like I said, instinct.....yes, as God designed them. Free will? I don't think so. On this point I do not know for sure, but I don't think animals have a soul.

You're not making a very good argument if I can refute it so easily.You are being stubborn. Your refutations are based on your eisegesis.


Don't be obtuse. The bottom line is that it was prophecied they would be destroyed in forty days, and they weren't. Get over it. Did you read them or not?





Wait, you think God decided to create the heavens and the earth before He decided to create the heavens and the earth? Because, that's what I was talking about.What?! :dizzy:



Wrong. He murdered him so that no one would know they committed adultery, because she was pregnant, and Uriah wouldn't come home to sleep with his wife.Wrong. Uriah did come home. He wouldn't sleep with Bathsheba. His conscience could not allow him to enjoy such pleasure while his men were dying on the battlefield.


I know exactly what God means. He was dissapointed. It isn't an analogy, or a metaphor. It's literal truth. As for God's regret about Saul...this is an example of anthropomorphic expression. God is working relative to us; that is, He is working in our time frame and expresses "human-like" emotions after seeing what people have done in their sinfulness. This is natural and is to be expected if we assume that God works with us and through us as we go about our daily life. ( paraphrased from CARM)


No, you don't get it.
How does the past pass into "non-existance"? It doesn't. What does it mean when God "remembers our sin no more..." it simply means that He no longer holds them against us, if we are repentant.




No you didn't. This isn't the same question that toook you five times to answer. It's another one. And now, this is your third chance to answer it. :chuckle: What was the question?



It's completely improbable. It makes no sense.
Yeah, ok......whatever!



Bull. You're a horrible liar, Robin.
You don't like my first answer, so...... :rolleyes:
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.

Lighthouse
May 18th, 2005, 12:45 AM
Before I start I must ask, could you please start using the quote function properly?


I was thinking of Deuteronomy 21:23, that proves or is contrasted by Galatians 3:13. And of course you know of the prophecies concerning Christ, written in the Psalms and Isaiah. However, the whole of the OT shows the foreshadowing of Christ.
So? I have no reason to believe that God did not work out the details of His plan. He thought it out, and gave information to His prophets so they could prophecy. Then, when it came time He did exactly what He said would be done. This does not contradict the open view.


I can agree that there are places in scripture that can be taken in its literal sense. But don't you know that the bible has hidden treasure? Golden nuggets, pearls of wisdom? Our english translated bible is only a translation, it is only parts of stories....pieces of the whole picture that only God holds, but in His grace and wisdom, has revealed great truths of which even the simplest truths are tailored for finite minds such as ours. It's God's revelation of Himself to us. Can man ever contemplate the wholeness of God? Can we capture Him with words? Faith is believing though we cannot see. I have faith that if God designed me with free will, then He would choose not to impose on it. His desire is that I would love Him and trust Him completely....even when I don't understand. My desire is that I fulfill His will for my life, to be the woman He designed me to be.
I agree with that. And the open view openly states that God does not impose on our free will.





And you literalize and oversimplify.
How so? Metaphor and simile exist in the Bible. So does allegory and parable. But there is no reason to think that God did not mean what He said, when He said, "Now I know..."


:nono:
You don't find it interesting that in prayer I came to the conclusion that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell, and then at a much later date [years later] found that others believe this as well? And that they showed me why, with the Bible?


Only that Satan takes you seriously. While you are laughing at him, he is plotting your downfall. While you may not lose your salvation, he can still use you to bring shame and dishonor to the name of Christ. Any good soldier knows when to take his enemy seriously. That is why scripture has supplied our battle gear. Have you ever done a study on this? It's quite fascinating.
I do not fear Satan. And fear is the only power he could ever have over a child of God. He has no power over me, and I have no reason to fear that he could bring me down.:nono:



I did..... :doh:
No, you didn't.




As for point #2, I told you already that "tests" are not for God's benefit! God has exhaustive knowledge. There is nothing more for Him to learn! Point #5, in order for God to choose not to know, on what would He base the decision to choose?
On point #6 you said God takes risks......what risk is without the possibility of mistakes?
Is it a mistake that not everybody goes to heaven? Of course not! But it is a risk. And one that God was willing to take, in order to save whoever would come to Him.


God a failure? Makes mistakes? :nono:
God is no "risk-taker"......He is certain of His plans.
Of course He's certain of His plans. But He is not willing that any should perish, but they do! God did not fail, or make a mistake. Thos who reject Him are the ones who fail, and have made a grave mistake.


And not every christian is right about all matters concerning God. Me included.
Like I said, instinct.....yes, as God designed them. Free will? I don't think so. On this point I do not know for sure, but I don't think animals have a soul.
You are being stubborn. Your refutations are based on your eisegesis.
Animals don't have souls. And they are not capable of understandfing human concepts, but they are not puppets. They are not controlled by an outside force. They go where they want. They eat what they want. They make choices.


Did you read them or not?
I know Nineveh was later destroyed. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that God did not destroy them at the time He said He would when He sent Jonah. He changed His mind.




What?! :dizzy:
Exactly. When God decided to create it was a change. He had not decided to create before then.


Wrong. Uriah did come home. He wouldn't sleep with Bathsheba. His conscience could not allow him to enjoy such pleasure while his men were dying on the battlefield.
I know he came home. That's why I use the word "to." He didn't come home to sleep with his wife. I never said he didn't come home. And it was because he didn't sleep wiht her that David had him killed. If Uriah had slept with Bathsheba then it would have been thought to be his child. But God, knowing it wasn't, worked on Uriah's conscience so he wouldn't. And then David had him killed, and took Bathsheba in and married here, so no one would know they had had an affair. He believed everyone would think they conceived the child on their wedding night. But God had other plans. However, this has nothing to do with the issue.


As for God's regret about Saul...this is an example of anthropomorphic expression. God is working relative to us; that is, He is working in our time frame and expresses "human-like" emotions after seeing what people have done in their sinfulness. This is natural and is to be expected if we assume that God works with us and through us as we go about our daily life. ( paraphrased from CARM)
See, there you go. Denying that it's literal. I believe that references to God's heart, and God's arm are anthropomorphisms. But God made us in His image, mentally and emotionally. We may not possess the knowledge He does, but we get angry, and disappointed, just like He does. Do you think God didn't mean it when He said he regretted something? Or when He said He was angry?

And how can you not see the hoops that have to be gone through, and the things that have to be ignored, and the logic that has to be skirted, in order to come to that conclusion?


How does the past pass into "non-existance"? It doesn't. What does it mean when God "remembers our sin no more..." it simply means that He no longer holds them against us, if we are repentant.
It passes into non-existence, in that it is no longer there. It is over, and gone. It no longer exists. Do you think God can reach into the past, and change things?



:chuckle: What was the question?
Where is it documented that God knew the specifics of what Pharoah would say, or how long it would take to before Pharoah told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt?



Yeah, ok......whatever!
DO you think it makes any sense?



You don't like my first answer, so...... :rolleyes:
Remember? The one I gave you when we started this dialogue.
You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do. That is, if He knows. If He does not, then you have a real choice. In order for you to have a choice, even if God could know the future exhaustively, He would have to choose not to know your choice, until you made it.

Delmar
May 18th, 2005, 11:36 AM
A really good idea? Yes, because I believe infinte knowledge does not include knowlege of all things not yet determined or not yet in existence.


Ps 147:5 "[God's] understanding is infinite." puting the phrases that back up your beliefs does not make your opinion more relivent.


Ezekiel 11:5 " Then the Spirit of the Lord fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the Lord: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind."." I agree that the moment somthing enters your mind God knows it!


Acts 15:18 "Known to God from all eternity are His works." from the begining of time , yes.

Romans 11:33 "Oh the depths of His riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgements and His ways past finding out"

1 John 3:20 "For if our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things."

Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give an account." [/QUOTE]
great quotes but we both know that, when the Bible refers to all things, you take it to mean all things present, past and future and I take it to mean all things present and past and that part of the future that God has pre ordained. So we are at an impass on this point.

When I say that God is omniscient, I mean that He knows all that there is to know. There is nothing outside the scope of His conception, understanding or attention. God neither studies or learns for one cannot increase a knowledge that is already insurmountable. Neither does probablity exist for God; all things either are or are not in His perspective. Again I agree with your words, but since the future does not exist, it and much of it hasn't even been caused yet it can not logicly be included in the scope of all that there is to know.


There is no maybe. There are no potentially infinite realities as the faux-hip coffee houses or comic book writers are so fond of speculating. There is one reality and God knows it in its entirety, as it exist by, through and for Him. God is neither surprised by the way the world works itself out, nor shocked by the choices we make. Omniscience is the passive end of His providence- the working out of God's predestined purpose via His sovereignty- in that it is by the means which providence can exist, but neither the engine, nor the fuel that brings about His action.(Quoted from the Blue letter Bible) There are many examples in the Bible that don't seem to agree with you, but rather suggest that God changes his reaction to people because of the actions of people.



The term Omniscience does not occur in scripture either in its nominal or its adjectival form.
In the OT it is expressed with such words as da'ath, binah, tebhunah, chokhmah: also "seeing", and "hearing", "the eye" and "the ear" occur as the figures for the knowledge of God , as "arm, hand or finger" serve to express His power. In the NT are found ginoskein, gnosis, eidenai, and sophia in the same connection.

It extends to all the divisions of time, the past, present and future alike. (Job 14:17, Psalms 56:8, Isaiah 41:22-24, 44:6-8, Jeramiah 1:5, Hosea 13:12, and Malachai 3:16.)

God's Omniscience and Human Free-will

Since scripture includes in the objects of the divine knowledge also the issue of the excercise of free-will on the part of man, the problem arises, how the contingent character of such decisions and the certainty of the divine knowledge can coexist. It is true that the knowledge of God and the puposing will of God are distinct, and that not the former but the latter determines the certainty of the outcome. Consequently, the divine omniscience in such cases adds nor detracts nothing in reguard to the certainty of the event. God's omniscience does not produce but presupposes the certainty by which the problem is raised. At the same time, precisely because omniscience presupposes certainty, it appears to exclude every conception of contingency in the free acts of man, such as would render the latter in their very essence undetermined. The knowledge of the issue must have a fixed point of certainty to terminate upon, if it is to be knowledge at all. Those who make the essence of freedom absolute indeterminateness must, therefore, exempt this class of events from the scope of the divine omniscience. But this is contrary to all the testimony of Scripture, which distinctly makes God's absolute knowledge extend to such acts. (Acts 2:23) It has been attempted to construe a peculiar form of the divine knowledge, which would relate to this class of acts specifically, the so-called scientia media, to be distinguished from the scientia necessaria, which has for its object, God Himself, and the scientia libera which terminates upon the certainties of the world outside of God, as determined by His freewill. This scientia media would then be based on God's foresight of the outcome of the free choice of man.It would involve a knowledge of receptivity, a contribution of the sum total of what God knows derived from observation on His part of the world-process. That is to say that it would be knowledge a posteriori in essence, though not in point of time. It is, however, difficult to see how such a knowledge can be possible in God, when the outcome is psychologically undetermined and undeterminable. The knowledge could originate no sooner than the determination originates through the free decision of man. It would, therefore, necessarily become an a posteriori knowledge in time as well as in essence. The appeal to God's eternity as bringing Him equally near to the future as well as to the present and enabling Him to see the future decisions of man's free will as theough they were present cannot remove this difficulty, for when once the observation and knowledge of God are made dependant on any temporal issue, the divine eternity itself is thereby virtually denied. Nothing remains but to recognize that God's eternal knowledge of the outcome of the freewill choices of man implies that there enters into these choices, notwithstanding their free character, an element of predetermination, to which the knowledge of God can attach itself.
(Quoted from: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. "Omniscience")

It is my understanding, that God knows the choices that I make(even before I do), but in that His knowledge is not preventive or causative. His knowing does not change or cause the outcome of my choices. Although I am a part of the plan of God. I am well aware that you understand it that way, it simply does not make sense to me that God could know all future events with out causing all future events nor is it logical to believe that God is unable to react to events

For instance, I know that the sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it or preventing it from rising by knowing it will happen.

The only reason that you know that the sun will rise tomorrow is that you are aware of the fact that God created it in such a way that it rises every day.


Likewise, if I place a bowl of ice-cream in front of my child and a bowl of brussel sprouts, I know which will be chosen by him. He will choose the ice cream. My knowing this ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. Knowing that choice has no effect on him when he makes it.
yet
Who are you kidding you forced him to choose the ice cream by making brussel sprouts the other choice.
Ah but what if he was choosing between a fudge brownie and ice cream

Balder
May 18th, 2005, 12:04 PM
Who are you kidding you forced him to choose the ice cream by making brussel sprouts the other choice.
Ah but what if he was choosing between a fudge brownie and ice cream

Eating brussel sprouts has always been a hellish experience for me. With that in mind, do you think God has acted similarly to the person in the scenario above, saying, "Here's your choices: eternal bliss if you say you love me, eternal suffering in fire if you don't"?

Lighthouse
May 18th, 2005, 12:16 PM
Balder-
That's not how it works. So drop it.

Delmar
May 18th, 2005, 12:45 PM
[QUOTE]
Knowable for GOD! We are all aware by now that you think the open veiw is herasy.




That's not what you said. :nono: You said, "Do you think I'm the only one who believes this?" As if majority opinion counts.... :rolleyes:





Oh, so then, you rely on what other people think? What about what God thinks? :think:


You said, "....God knew that Satan was an idiot and would get his nose rubbed in it again.
That, "God probably enjoyed Satan making a fool of himself."
The lesson was not about Satan being an idiot or God delighting in his foolishness, but that's what you made it out to be.



:shocked: :noway:

Didn't happen though, did it? :nono:


What are you trying to prove with this quote? "nor did it come into My mind." This was God emphasizing that He did not command the the people to burn their sons, like a burnt offering to Baal.
Context, Brandon......



Like you did using that last quote...trying to make God's word fit into your preconcieved idea of who God is and what He is capable of....or not......so that you can be right.
Shame on you! :nono: You are doing the exact same thing with your preconcieved idea that God is outside of time






So, then God is not omniscient? If He knows all present things, didn't he already know that Abraham feared Him?
Obviously this is a test of Abraham. Tests are not for God's benefit, but for our benefit. When God speaks, He often uses phrases in the form of a question to reveal to us, spiritual truths. This is not uncommon in scripture, as in Genesis 3:9. Do you really think God didn't know where Adam was?
Think, Brandon.....
Can you serve a God with limited knowledge and still have complete faith that He does not make mistakes?

Pagan? :think: Perhaps not, but.....a leading proponent of this "open thiesm" theology is a Professor Clark Pinnock who teaches theology at McMaster Divinity College in Canada. And a book called "The Openess of God." Published by IVP 1994.


Animals were not created in the image of God. Instinct? Perhaps, but free will? :think:



:duh:

:rolleyes:



You should study more....... :rolleyes:

Ok, then, let's approach this from another angle. In Jeramiah 18:8-9 we see that God will not bring about destruction on a nation if its people repent....turn from its sin, which is what happened after Jonah preached.
God simply ordained the means of that repentance by threatening Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. They repented and God relented. and if they would not have repented God would not have relented.


When did God change His mind about creating the earth before He created it? As you stated.... He changed his mind when he decided to flood the whole earth and start things over




:kiss: and I love you too!


Did God change His mind?
Nope.... :nono:


2Samuel 5:12 the promise God gave to David, was given by God even though God knew what was in David's heart.



According to Vine's Expository Dictionary; everlasting means:eternal. Look 'em both up. :Poly:



;) :kiss:



And round and round we go........... :juggle: :dizzy:



Our measurement of time. Ok...but doesn't the bible say that He created all things?

You say that God changes His mind. If He can change His mind and be arbitrary, then why not change what He wishes?


Says you.....
Timelessness is not illogical. Uncomprehendable to our finite mind, perhaps, but not improbable.



:beanboy: Just baiting your circular reasoning.....I never seem to have a problem eating what I want when I want, so no imposition to my free will. See the ice cream/ broccoli analogy I gave to deardelmar. :D
You seem to place a higher value on your precious free will over the truth about God's omniscience. :think: No, God places a higher value on free will than your pagan influenced idea of omniscience

Agape4Robin
May 18th, 2005, 04:54 PM
[QUOTE]Before I start I must ask, could you please start using the quote function properly?Is this better?


So? I have no reason to believe that God did not work out the details of His plan. He thought it out, and gave information to His prophets so they could prophecy. Then, when it came time He did exactly what He said would be done. This does not contradict the open view. So you assume that the Open Theist view is the only correct one. I tire of this circular arguement. It proves nothing, and you are just as set in your beliefs as I am.


I agree with that. And the open view openly states that God does not impose on our free will.And my Orthodox view of christianity as God being all knowing....past, present and future does not impose on my free will either.





How so? Metaphor and simile exist in the Bible. So does allegory and parable. But there is no reason to think that God did not mean what He said, when He said, "Now I know..." :doh:


You don't find it interesting that in prayer I came to the conclusion that God does not know who will and who will not go to hell, and then at a much later date [years later] found that others believe this as well? And that they showed me why, with the Bible?
Funny that you would say that. Beanieboy said the same thing about God leading him to buddhism.
Perhaps you two are talking to the same god. :think:

I do not fear Satan. And fear is the only power he could ever have over a child of God. He has no power over me, and I have no reason to fear that he could bring me down.:nono:I didn't say fear. I said "know your enemy".
But hey, it's your choice. :rolleyes:
So, you don't sin? :confused:



No, you didn't.Yes I did.





Is it a mistake that not everybody goes to heaven? Of course not! But it is a risk. And one that God was willing to take, in order to save whoever would come to Him.
Hhhmmmmm.......God the cosmic gambler....... :think:
Maybe Heaven will have a place like Las Vegas, only with out the prostitution and mafia! :darwinsm:

Of course He's certain of His plans. But He is not willing that any should perish, but they do! God did not fail, or make a mistake. Thos who reject Him are the ones who fail, and have made a grave mistake. :duh:


Animals don't have souls. And they are not capable of understandfing human concepts, but they are not puppets. They are not controlled by an outside force. They go where they want. They eat what they want. They make choices. :cow: :Shaggy: :aimiel: :troy: :crow2: :chicken: :dog:

I know Nineveh was later destroyed. But that has nothing to do with the point. The point is that God did not destroy them at the time He said He would when He sent Jonah. He changed His mind.It has everything to do with it. Even if it was postponed, it still happened. :grave:




Exactly. When God decided to create it was a change. He had not decided to create before then.A change from what?


I know he came home. That's why I use the word "to." He didn't come home to sleep with his wife. I never said he didn't come home. And it was because he didn't sleep wiht her that David had him killed. If Uriah had slept with Bathsheba then it would have been thought to be his child. But God, knowing it wasn't, worked on Uriah's conscience so he wouldn't. And then David had him killed, and took Bathsheba in and married here, so no one would know they had had an affair. He believed everyone would think they conceived the child on their wedding night. But God had other plans. However, this has nothing to do with the issue. OY! :doh:


See, there you go. Denying that it's literal. I believe that references to God's heart, and God's arm are anthropomorphisms. But God made us in His image, mentally and emotionally. We may not possess the knowledge He does, but we get angry, and disappointed, just like He does. Do you think God didn't mean it when He said he regretted something? Or when He said He was angry?I know enough about hermaneutics to know when to be literal or otherwise. :rolleyes:


And how can you not see the hoops that have to be gone through, and the things that have to be ignored, and the logic that has to be skirted, in order to come to that conclusion?Same for you.........

It passes into non-existence, in that it is no longer there. It is over, and gone. It no longer exists. Do you think God can reach into the past, and change things?I never said or implied that God reaches in to the past and changes anything. The past does exist in the past. They call it history...... :rolleyes:




Where is it documented that God knew the specifics of what Pharoah would say, or how long it would take to before Pharoah told Moses to take the Israelites out of Egypt?Does it have to be documented? :readthis:



DO you think it makes any sense?I don't think you make sense. :nono:




You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do. That is, if He knows. If He does not, then you have a real choice. In order for you to have a choice, even if God could know the future exhaustively, He would have to choose not to know your choice, until you made it. If anything God (in His wisdom) chooses not to impose His knowledge (of future events) in attempt to force us to abandon our free will. That is a truly loving and omniscient God.

Agape4Robin
May 18th, 2005, 04:58 PM
[QUOTE=Agape4Robin]We are all aware by now that you think the open veiw is herasy. You are doing the exact same thing with your preconcieved idea that God is outside of time and if they would not have repented God would not have relented. He changed his mind when he decided to flood the whole earth and start things over No, God places a higher value on free will than your pagan influenced idea of omniscience
I am afraid that it is the "Open Theists" who place a higher value on free will than on God's omniscience. :think:

Delmar
May 19th, 2005, 06:07 AM
[QUOTE=deardelmar]
I am afraid that it is the "Open Theists" who place a higher value on free will than on God's omniscience. :think:Saying it more often doesn't make you right.

Lighthouse
May 19th, 2005, 06:17 AM
Is this better?
No. Look at your post. The first quote box shuold have "Originally posted by Lighthouse," at the beginning. But instead, the code that causes that to apper is outside the quote box. I don't know how you're managing to do it, but it's distracting. And quite unpleasing aestetichally.


So you assume that the Open Theist view is the only correct one. I tire of this circular arguement. It proves nothing, and you are just as set in your beliefs as I am.
Yes, I believe it is the only correct one. Because to know something that does not exist is impossible. Even for God. Because for Him to know it it would have to first exist. Just like He can't exist in wonderland, or create a rock so heavy He can't lift it. It's illogical, and imposible.


And my Orthodox view of christianity as God being all knowing....past, present and future does not impose on my free will either.
Of course not. However, if it were true, then free will would be an illusion.




:doh:
You're the one who thinks God was lying.


Funny that you would say that. Beanieboy said the same thing about God leading him to buddhism.
Perhaps you two are talking to the same god. :think:
Seeing as how beanieboy has never known God...


I didn't say fear. I said "know your enemy".
But hey, it's your choice. :rolleyes:
I do know him. And he's weak. He's powerless.

So, you don't sin? :confused:
I am dead to sin. And sin is not the result of Satan's power over anyone.

I will say this, I am not a sinner. I am free from, dead to, sin. By the blood of Christ. I am a new creation, and I am in Christ. In Christ there is no sin. Any sin I have is in the old me. That is not who I am, anymore.

"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin the dwelleth in me."

-Romans 7:20



Yes I did.
If you had proven it, then why would I still argue against it? You can't prove something that isn't true.




Hhhmmmmm.......God the cosmic gambler....... :think:
Maybe Heaven will have a place like Las Vegas, only with out the prostitution and mafia! :darwinsm:
So you don't think it was a risk? You do realize that true love takes risks, don't you?

And for some reason you haven't even touched on the idea that God, knowing who would and would not go to hell, still died for all people. Why would He do that? What would be the point of dying for all people when He knew exactly who would and who would not come to Him?


:duh:
But He still died for all men? Why?


:cow: :Shaggy: :aimiel: :troy: :crow2: :chicken: :dog:
You don't think animals do what they want?

It has everything to do with it. Even if it was postponed, it still happened. :grave:
It was not postponed. The later destruction was for a completely different reason. And still, even if it had just been a postponement [God has doen that] the truth of the matter stands. God did not do what He said He would do. He changed His mind, because they repented.



A change from what?
What do you think? His decision was a change from when He had not decided. When he thought to create, He had not thought to create before. That is a change.


OY! :doh:
What?


I know enough about hermaneutics to know when to be literal or otherwise. :rolleyes:
Apparently not.


Same for you.........
How? Can you show me how I am ignoring anything? How am I skirting logic?


I never said or implied that God reaches in to the past and changes anything. The past does exist in the past. They call it history...... :rolleyes:
He doesn't change it, because it isn't there. It's gone. And since it isn't there, neither is He.



Does it have to be documented? :readthis:
If it isn't then to say it's true is an argument from silence.


I don't think you make sense. :nono:
Why doesn't it make sense?



If anything God (in His wisdom) chooses not to impose His knowledge (of future events) in attempt to force us to abandon our free will. That is a truly loving and omniscient God.
The only way His knowledge would not keep us from having free will is if He either chose not to know, or He couldn't know.

Agape4Robin
May 19th, 2005, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Lighthouse No. Look at your post. The first quote box shuold have "Originally posted by Lighthouse," at the beginning. But instead, the code that causes that to apper is outside the quote box. I don't know how you're managing to do it, but it's distracting. And quite unpleasing aestetichally.
There you go. :bannana:
Now if you would do something about your horrible spelling, then we could both be happy. :BRAVO:



Yes, I believe it is the only correct one. Because to know something that does not exist is impossible. Even for God. Because for Him to know it it would have to first exist. Just like He can't exist in wonderland, or create a rock so heavy He can't lift it. It's illogical, and imposible.
Impossible for God?" But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" Matthew 19:26
God is either Lord of all or not at all.


Of course not. However, if it were true, then free will would be an illusion.
Does your free will have the power to save you? :nono:


You're the one who thinks God was lying.
Not God, just :mock: you.



Seeing as how beanieboy has never known God...
Just stating an observation........ :Brandon:



I do know him. And he's weak. He's powerless.

I am dead to sin. And sin is not the result of Satan's power over anyone.

I will say this, I am not a sinner. I am free from, dead to, sin. By the blood of Christ. I am a new creation, and I am in Christ. In Christ there is no sin. Any sin I have is in the old me. That is not who I am, anymore.

"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin the dwelleth in me."

-Romans 7:20

It must be swell to be you....... :rolleyes:


If you had proven it, then why would I still argue against it? You can't prove something that isn't true.
Neither can you. :nono:



So you don't think it was a risk? You do realize that true love takes risks, don't you?
After you have been married 20 years, then you can preach to me about love. :rolleyes:
Until then......I know more about that than you.


And for some reason you haven't even touched on the idea that God, knowing who would and would not go to hell, still died for all people. Why would He do that? What would be the point of dying for all people when He knew exactly who would and who would not come to Him?


But He still died for all men? Why?
Even if you had been the only one in the whole world to sin, God still would have extended and provided salvation for you.

He died for all men even though He knew that He would be accepted by some and rejected by some. Thus no one can say that we deserved it. That's the beauty of God's grace.



You don't think animals do what they want?
Give it a rest.....this is not a part of the discussion. :spam:

It was not postponed. The later destruction was for a completely different reason. And still, even if it had just been a postponement [God has doen that] the truth of the matter stands. God did not do what He said He would do. He changed His mind, because they repented. :blabla:



What do you think? His decision was a change from when He had not decided. When he thought to create, He had not thought to create before. That is a change.
:kookoo:




How? Can you show me how I am ignoring anything? How am I skirting logic?
You can't skirt your own logic, can you? :liberals:

He doesn't change it, because it isn't there. It's gone. And since it isn't there, neither is He.
And there you go .......tsk...tsk... :nono:
Do you have a different definition of omnipresence too? :rolleyes:



If it isn't then to say it's true is an argument from silence.
You should run to your nearest bible college and sign up for a basic class in hermaneutics. :think:

Why doesn't it make sense?
I said you don't make sense...... :p




The only way His knowledge would not keep us from having free will is if He either chose not to know, or He couldn't know.
You just don't get it......... :nono:

Lighthouse
May 19th, 2005, 08:13 PM
There you go. :bannana:
Now if you would do something about your horrible spelling, then we could both be happy. :BRAVO:
You're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling.



Impossible for God?" But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'" Matthew 19:26
God is either Lord of all or not at all.
Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?


Does your free will have the power to save you? :nono:
Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?


Not God, just :mock: you.
Then what did God mean?



Just stating an observation........ :Brandon:
You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.



It must be swell to be you....... :rolleyes:
Why? Because I'm dead to sin?


Neither can you. :nono:
No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything.



After you have been married 20 years, then you can preach to me about love. :rolleyes:
Until then......I know more about that than you.
That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!


Even if you had been the only one in the whole world to sin, God still would have extended and provided salvation for you.
So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't?


He died for all men even though He knew that He would be accepted by some and rejected by some. Thus no one can say that we deserved it. That's the beauty of God's grace.
But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:



Give it a rest.....this is not a part of the discussion. :spam:
Maybe not, but you're the one who brought it up.


:blabla:
Can't think of an argument?



:kookoo:
See above.




You can't skirt your own logic, can you? :liberals:
It isn;t my logic.


And there you go .......tsk...tsk... :nono:
You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because don't have anything to back you up...


Do you have a different definition of omnipresence too? :rolleyes:
I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.



You should run to your nearest bible college and sign up for a basic class in hermaneutics. :think:
There are a few other classes I would have to take.


I said you don't make sense...... :p
To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?




You just don't get it......... :nono:
Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it.

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?

Agape4Robin
May 19th, 2005, 08:48 PM
You're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling. :chuckle: :darwinsm:


Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?


Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?


Then what did God mean?



You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.



Why? Because I'm dead to sin?


No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything.



That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!


So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't?


But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:



Maybe not, but you're the one who brought it up.


Can't think of an argument?



See above.




It isn;t my logic.


You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because you don't have anything to back you up...


I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.



There are a few other classes I would have to take.


To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?




Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it.

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?

Spelling, a missing word and punctuation errors are highlighted in bold blue. There are tons more in other posts and there may be more, but I just wanted to prove a point.

I will answer this post later. For now, I'm going to bed....daughter is graduating from HS tomorrow. :BRAVO:

Lighthouse
May 19th, 2005, 09:18 PM
They're not spelling errors, :shut:. They're typos. That's why only a letter is missing.:rolleyes: You're complaining because I type too fast? And I never said my punctuation was good.:nono: As for the error you pointed out, the ; key is right next to the ' key. It's called a typo, Robin. Buy a clue.

Are you proud of your daughter, for making it further than you ever did?

julie21
May 20th, 2005, 02:31 AM
Crowds watching from the sideline : "Ooh! The personal attacks have started! Now it will really get interesting!" Resumes reading other posts until next poster posts.
[Just joshing y'all for a bit of 'light' relief ]

Frank Ernest
May 20th, 2005, 04:40 AM
Crowds watching from the sideline : "Ooh! The personal attacks have started! Now it will really get interesting!" Resumes reading other posts until next poster posts.
[Just joshing y'all for a bit of 'light' relief ]
:chuckle:

Agape4Robin
May 20th, 2005, 06:31 AM
They're not spelling errors, :shut:. They're typos. That's why only a letter is missing.:rolleyes: You're complaining because I type too fast? And I never said my punctuation was good.:nono: As for the error you pointed out, the ; key is right next to the ' key. It's called a typo, Robin. Buy a clue.

Are you proud of your daughter, for making it further than you ever did?
Gee, :Brandon: You think you have an answer for everything.
Typo schmypo....proof read your posts and then you can go back to thinking you're perfect again.
Don't point out meaningless errors in others unless you're prepared to receive correction yourself.
:Brandon: Didn't your mommy and daddy teach you the golden rule?

I am very proud of my daughter! :BRAVO:
I know you meant that last statement to be deprecating and venomous. You show your true colors, :Brandon:

:kiss:

Agape4Robin
May 20th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by:LighthouseYou're going to complain about typos? I never once got anything less than an A on my spelling.
:chuckle:



Can God sin? Can God create a rock so bg he cannot lift it?
On point one..... :nono:
On point two......What kind of asinine question is that? :rolleyes:



Never said it did? What the hell is your fixation with free will? Do you think lying and saying I place more value on my free will than on God's omniscience makes you look more valid?
The Open Theist View is rife with the fixation concerning free will. It is the central point by which this false view of God is itself fixated upon.



Then what did God mean?
Are you meaning to say that God doesn't know the intention of the heart?
In the three day journey, was Abraham's intent hidden from God?
I said it before and I will say it again :doh: ...."tests" are not for God's benefit, they are for our edification. God cannot learn things He already knows.



You know, I'm not interested in you using my smilie. So don't.
"Don't use my smiley.. ":sozo2: :baby:
:Brandon: :Brandon: :Brandon: Grow up. :rolleyes:



Why? Because I'm dead to sin?
You sound like the Pharisee in Luke 18:11-14. " The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself", 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men- extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner!'
" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exhalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exhalted."
And now.....a quote from the sandbox :baby:

No one can prove something that isn't true. But my view is. :baby: And I can prove it from Scripture. You haven't proven anything. :sozo2:
:darwinsm:


That's complete :cow:. I know God's love. And His love is perfect, and true. Don't tell me I don't know about love!
You talk about taking risks, God's love is safe and sure. Try staying married to the same person for 20 years (or more), then you will understand not only what love is, but what it is not. True love is not a feeling. It is a choice you make.
Loving God/ God loving us and love between a husband and a wife are two different dynamics.

So? That's not the point. Why did He die for those who would not come to Him, if He knew they wouldn't? It boils down to man's "free will" doesn't it? God's knowledge is independent of man's free will. That kind of knowledge is neither causative or preventive. It's purely intellectual on God's part.


But why die for someone you know isn't going to accept it? Unless you're a Universalist...:think:
Sticks and stones..... :Brandon:


Can't think of an argument?
:yawn:



It isn;t my logic.
Maybe not.......but it's one you've adopted.



You've run out of refutations haven't you? Now your just throwing out ad hominems because don't have anything to back you up...
Look in the mirror and you will see the source of my :think: .......problem. :Brandon:


I don't know. Do you think God can exist someplace that does not exist? I don't.
How do you know exhaustively what does or does not exist for God?



There are a few other classes I would have to take.
That is an understatement! :rolleyes:



To say that I don't make sense is to say that my argument doesn't make sense. So why doesn't it?
You haven't been listening and I'm tired of talking to a thick minded child. :baby: :bang:




Wrong. I believed what you believe for over twenty years. You are the one who doesn't get it. See above..... :yawn:

Do you pray? Do you ask God to change things?
Yep! :thumb:
I ask for wisdom. For God to reveal His purpose. To help me through the trials in my life, not to change them. What would I learn if God changed things? I know that God uses all things for the good of those who love Him and trust Him.

Caledvwlch
May 20th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Robin, I've made the same point over and over again about Abraham's test being for Abraham's benefit. I usually get laughed at. I also liked this part:

It boils down to man's "free will" doesn't it? God's knowledge is independent of man's free will. That kind of knowledge is neither causative or preventive. It's purely intellectual on God's part.
I actually think the relationship between God's power and man's free will may be even more complex than simply intellectual. I think God is probably powerful enough to give us our free will while also determining our course before we are ever born. Sounds silly, I guess, but I've always thought God was a little bigger than human understanding.