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Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:48 AM
Yes, you read that title correctly: I support captial punishment.

I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments).

"We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did–and in one day twentythree thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did–and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did–and were killed by the destroying angel."

As you can see I'm just about to tip toe in some dangerous territory...

I recognize a number of believers on TOL are absolutely for the death penalty in our present dispensation. I also recognize that this topic is a hot one and I need to be careful how I address it lest I get myself in trouble. So, with that in mind, let's investigate the biblical view of the death penalty.

First, it was clear God ordained the death penalty to deal with certain crimes and sins in the Old Covenant. Sins like blasphemy and crimes like murder required the death of the guilty. I recognize this.

Secondly, it is clear God allowed the theocratic nation to punish certain criminals with death. The Law mandated it. The nation of Israel was called upon, Holy God, to carry this out.

However,

The Old Covenant which called for the governing authorities to utilize the death penalty was temporary. A greater covenant was spoken of that would illuminate us (see Hebrews 7:22) to a better means in dealing with crimes and sins—on a personal & governmental level. The Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).

Under the superior New Covenant, God began to enlighten His people of a better means in dealing with sin/crime-the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which reconciles, restores, redeems, and forgives. The Gospel is more powerful then the Law (see Romans 1:16), for the Law is bondage (see Galatians 4). Governments which consist of individuals should be directed to live (and in providing societal order) according to precepts found in the better covenant which has a better way of dealing with criminals.

Let’s look at how Jesus and New Covenant believers dealt with those guilty of capital crimes:

•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

The New Covenant calls for redemptive justice—what we see Jesus did for the Samaritan woman, the apostle Paul, and others. You restore when there is repentance. When there in no repentance, call for punishment (see Romans 13). In this, the New Covenant gives liberty in the area of punishment. The death penalty however is not an option, as the New Covenant does not give the governments of the world an allowance to put to death criminals. The “sword” mentioned in Romans 13 is referring, symbolically, to the “authority” the government has to punish evil doers not to put them to death.

Governments should be required to follow the example, of Jesus and how he dealt with those guilty of capital offenses. It works much better then requiring them to follow the Law’s handling of capital crimes—for the Law is incapable of doing what Jesus can accomplish. Jesus is much better then the Law.

Lighthouse
April 21st, 2005, 03:21 PM
You're about as ignorant as a sandbag. The New Covenant apllies to those in Christ. And it it does not annull the civil punishment for capitol crimes. Jesus Himself said that whoever lives by the sword shall die by the sword.

Granite
April 21st, 2005, 03:22 PM
Brandon, what you don't know about Freak is a lot. I disagree with the guy on several issues but he has a clue. Some respect, please.

[sits back, awaits Freak's return to rip clueless TOLer to shreds]

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 03:27 PM
I'm not as interested in what your interpretation of the Bible is as I am in US and State Law.

Capital Punishment is currently the law of the land whether you like it or not. If you think it is wrong, consult your local Congressman.

Personally, I think Capital Punishment should be used more frequently and with little delay between sentencing and execution.

allsmiles
April 21st, 2005, 03:35 PM
I believe in capital punishment too. People who deserve the sentence have no place in a civilized society.

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 03:36 PM
This particular debate with Freak has been done to death....

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 03:37 PM
:darwinsm:

Lighthouse
April 21st, 2005, 03:46 PM
granite-
Get a muzzle.

Agape4Robin
April 21st, 2005, 03:59 PM
:chuckle:
granite-
Get a muzzle.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 04:11 PM
You're about as ignorant as a sandbag. Note: instead of replying to the objections offered in my original post you resort to a personal attack. Truth hurts, eh?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 04:16 PM
I believe in capital punishment too. People who deserve the sentence have no place in a civilized society.

Did these people, whom were guilty of what would be considered capital crimes, have a place in society?

Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

They were not called upon by the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. They were instead...

Washed
Sancitifed
and Justified

And guess what... life worked better then death for these individuals.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 05:01 PM
Do you think Scott Peterson should be allowed to live?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 05:32 PM
Do you think Scott Peterson should be allowed to live?
:nono:

:idea:Maybe we could keep him in a KFC slaughterhouse! :think:

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:35 PM
I'm not as interested in what your interpretation of the Bible is as I am in US and State Law.

Don't rely upon the law of the land to be righteous...

As it stands right now...baby killing is endorsed, legal and promoted.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 05:36 PM
Wife Killing isn't. :nono:

Peterson was also charged with killing his unborn baby.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:40 PM
Wife Killing isn't. :nono:

Peterson was also charged with killing his unborn baby.

Not interested in talking about personalities, I'm interested in dealing with the theological allowances of the death penalty and the objections I raised.

Imrahil
April 21st, 2005, 05:43 PM
Freak, do you believe the Bible teaches us to allow evil to be done to us without objecting? (Specifically, done by the government)

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:46 PM
Freak, do you believe the Bible teaches us to allow evil to be done to us without objecting? (Specifically, done by the government)

I'll give you what the Scriptures state on this very issue...

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

According to Paul how should we overcome evil? Hint: see bold.

Imrahil
April 21st, 2005, 05:48 PM
I'll give you what the Scriptures state on this very issue...

Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord. On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

According to Paul how should we overcome evil? Hint: see bold.
Didn't answer the question. Should we at least speak out against evil? Or are we required to endure evil in silence?

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 05:51 PM
Not interested in talking about personalities, I'm interested in dealing with the theological allowances of the death penalty and the objections I raised.


I'm not interested in arguing theological differences, I am interested in US law and executing murderers.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:53 PM
Didn't answer the question. Should we at least speak out against evil? Or are we required to endure evil in silence? You overcome evil with the preaching of the gospel and calling people to repentance. This is overcoming evil with good. It is good to preach the gospel.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:55 PM
I'm not interested in arguing theological differences, I am interested in US law and executing murderers. Then perhaps you need to create another thread.

Imrahil
April 21st, 2005, 05:55 PM
You overcome evil with the preaching of the gospel and calling people to repentance. This is overcoming evil with good. It is good to preach the gospel.
Do you believe the death penalty is evil?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 05:56 PM
Or are we required to endure evil in silence?

The apostle Peter tells us:

It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:08 PM
Then perhaps you need to create another thread.

Why, the topic of this thread is Capital Punishment????

Perhaps you should find another forum if you don't like it around here.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 06:25 PM
Do you believe the death penalty is evil?

No. However, the death penalty under our present covenant, unlike in the Old Covenant, is not permissable.

I support captial punishment that God directly provides Himself!!

I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments).

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:26 PM
Hey Freak, should we let this guy live????? :madmad:



Jessie Buried While Alive, Documents Say (http://www.tampatrib.com/MGB649RFS7E.html)

Published: Apr 21, 2005


HOMOSASSA - Jessica Marie ``Jessie'' Lunsford spent the last hours of her life bound and buried alive in a partial kneeling position while she clutched one of her favorite dolls, a purple stuffed dolphin, prosecutors say in documents released Wednesday.

When her body was found buried March 19 in a 4-foot- deep grave, the 9-year-old Citrus County girl was wrapped in two plastic trash bags that were knotted at her head and feet, the state attorney's office said in 292 pages of evidence - released to the defense Tuesday - that revealed the nature of her death.

The files include statements from investigators, the coroner's office and John Evander Couey, 46, the convicted sex offender who investigators say gave them a statement saying he raped and killed Jessie.

The documents released Wednesday say Jessie's wrists were bound with stereo wire and two of her fingers poked through the plastic, arguably an indication she tried to escape her makeshift tomb.

The documents also say she was kept alive for an unspecified period near the home she shared with her father, Mark, and grandparents, Archie and Ruth.

Authorities say Couey gave them information only her killer would know.

Jessie was buried 150 yards from her home, behind a trailer Couey shared with three other adults.

She was dressed in shorts and a tank-top shirt, different from the nightgown authorities and her family say she wore before she disappeared.

A coroner's report states she suffocated.

The documents say there was no other sign of trauma.

Assistant State Attorney Pete Magrino would not discuss the taped statements by Couey or other details of the case.

The recording ``will not be released to the public until the trial,'' Magrino said.

Couey is charged with first- degree murder, sexual battery on a child under 12, kidnapping, and burglary with battery.

Prosecutors say they will seek the death penalty if he is convicted on the murder charge.

Couey, despite his recorded statement to authorities, has pleaded not guilty.

His court-appointed attorney, Assistant Public Defender Dan Lewan, could not be reached for comment.

Investigators say Jessie's grave was partially concealed by a mound of leaves and debris that littered the back yard where she was buried. It is still not known whether she was buried before deputies, volunteers and search dogs combed the yard in the first days of their search.

Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy has said Couey's account of things was jumbled because he was in a drug haze at the time of the crimes. Evidence collected near the grave includes two glass crack-cocaine pipes and three pornographic magazines, according to investigators' statements.

Other sheriff's interviews suggest that Couey's three housemates used alcohol and drugs and may have harbored him from deputies seeking to arrest him on a misdemeanor violation of probation charge shortly after Jessie was reported missing.

Last month, his half sister, Dorothy Marie Dixon, 47; Madie Catherine Secord, 27; and Matthew Oley Dittrich, 31, were charged with misdemeanor obstruction, but prosecutors dropped the charges, saying Florida lacks a law making lying to deputies a crime in their case.

Meanwhile, investigators searching Couey's bedroom say they seized the sleeve from a Shirley Temple videotape, ``Curly Top,'' and several items of bedding or clothing that tested positive for blood or could contain blood samples. The file has no information about the source of the blood.

They unsuccessfully sought a pair of leather gloves authorities say Couey said he wore during the abduction.

On Feb. 23, the night she was last seen alive by her family, Jessie went to church. She was discovered missing by her father the next morning, a day she anticipated taking the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, documents say.

A door of the family's mobile home was found unlocked.

Prosecutors say sometime during the night of Feb. 23 or early the next morning, Couey slipped into the Lunsford home and snatched the girl, leaving no signs of a struggle and without waking her grandparents, who were sleeping in another part of the house.

At the time, authorities say, he had not reported his move to Jessie's neighborhood. Registered sex offenders are required to report a change of address.

Couey was stopped on a probation violation March 12 in Savannah, Ga., but the warrant did not carry out-of-state arrest authority, so he was released. He was arrested on a revised warrant March 17.

The next day, after he underwent a polygraph test but before he knew the results, he made a statement of guilt, authorities say.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 06:27 PM
Why, the topic of this thread is Capital Punishment????

Perhaps you should find another forum if you don't like it around here. This thread is in the "General Theology" section because we are dealing with the theological implication not the political or current events end of it.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:31 PM
This thread is in the "General Theology" section because we are dealing with the theological implication not the political or current events end of it.

Yeah, that's one way to avoid dealing with reality, however I will not give you such an easy way out. If your theology were to be acknowledged by our legislators, we would become a theocracy and I am here to prevent such a thing.

That, and I enjoy harassing you. :sozo2:

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:31 PM
Hey Freak, should we let this guy live????? :madmad:



Jessie Buried While Alive, Documents Say (http://www.tampatrib.com/MGB649RFS7E.html)

Published: Apr 21, 2005


HOMOSASSA - Jessica Marie ``Jessie'' Lunsford spent the last hours of her life bound and buried alive in a partial kneeling position while she clutched one of her favorite dolls, a purple stuffed dolphin, prosecutors say in documents released Wednesday.

When her body was found buried March 19 in a 4-foot- deep grave, the 9-year-old Citrus County girl was wrapped in two plastic trash bags that were knotted at her head and feet, the state attorney's office said in 292 pages of evidence - released to the defense Tuesday - that revealed the nature of her death.

The files include statements from investigators, the coroner's office and John Evander Couey, 46, the convicted sex offender who investigators say gave them a statement saying he raped and killed Jessie.

The documents released Wednesday say Jessie's wrists were bound with stereo wire and two of her fingers poked through the plastic, arguably an indication she tried to escape her makeshift tomb.

The documents also say she was kept alive for an unspecified period near the home she shared with her father, Mark, and grandparents, Archie and Ruth.

Authorities say Couey gave them information only her killer would know.

Jessie was buried 150 yards from her home, behind a trailer Couey shared with three other adults.

She was dressed in shorts and a tank-top shirt, different from the nightgown authorities and her family say she wore before she disappeared.

A coroner's report states she suffocated.

The documents say there was no other sign of trauma.

Assistant State Attorney Pete Magrino would not discuss the taped statements by Couey or other details of the case.

The recording ``will not be released to the public until the trial,'' Magrino said.

Couey is charged with first- degree murder, sexual battery on a child under 12, kidnapping, and burglary with battery.

Prosecutors say they will seek the death penalty if he is convicted on the murder charge.

Couey, despite his recorded statement to authorities, has pleaded not guilty.

His court-appointed attorney, Assistant Public Defender Dan Lewan, could not be reached for comment.

Investigators say Jessie's grave was partially concealed by a mound of leaves and debris that littered the back yard where she was buried. It is still not known whether she was buried before deputies, volunteers and search dogs combed the yard in the first days of their search.

Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy has said Couey's account of things was jumbled because he was in a drug haze at the time of the crimes. Evidence collected near the grave includes two glass crack-cocaine pipes and three pornographic magazines, according to investigators' statements.

Other sheriff's interviews suggest that Couey's three housemates used alcohol and drugs and may have harbored him from deputies seeking to arrest him on a misdemeanor violation of probation charge shortly after Jessie was reported missing.

Last month, his half sister, Dorothy Marie Dixon, 47; Madie Catherine Secord, 27; and Matthew Oley Dittrich, 31, were charged with misdemeanor obstruction, but prosecutors dropped the charges, saying Florida lacks a law making lying to deputies a crime in their case.

Meanwhile, investigators searching Couey's bedroom say they seized the sleeve from a Shirley Temple videotape, ``Curly Top,'' and several items of bedding or clothing that tested positive for blood or could contain blood samples. The file has no information about the source of the blood.

They unsuccessfully sought a pair of leather gloves authorities say Couey said he wore during the abduction.

On Feb. 23, the night she was last seen alive by her family, Jessie went to church. She was discovered missing by her father the next morning, a day she anticipated taking the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, documents say.

A door of the family's mobile home was found unlocked.

Prosecutors say sometime during the night of Feb. 23 or early the next morning, Couey slipped into the Lunsford home and snatched the girl, leaving no signs of a struggle and without waking her grandparents, who were sleeping in another part of the house.

At the time, authorities say, he had not reported his move to Jessie's neighborhood. Registered sex offenders are required to report a change of address.

Couey was stopped on a probation violation March 12 in Savannah, Ga., but the warrant did not carry out-of-state arrest authority, so he was released. He was arrested on a revised warrant March 17.

The next day, after he underwent a polygraph test but before he knew the results, he made a statement of guilt, authorities say.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 06:38 PM
Yeah, that's one way to avoid dealing with reality, however I will not give you such an easy way out. I'm not one to walk on a road that leads to less resistance.


If your theology were to be acknowledged by our legislators, we would become a theocracy and I am here to prevent such a thing. Jesus is King regardless!!! :first:

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:41 PM
I'm not one to walk on a road that leads to less resistance.

Then you should enjoy this.




Jesus is King regardless!!! :first:

Yeah, well, until Jesus returns and claims his Kingdom, we are obligated to govern ourselves. Killing murderers is part of that obligation.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 06:42 PM
Hey Freak, should we let this guy live????? :madmad:



Jessie Buried While Alive, Documents Say (http://www.tampatrib.com/MGB649RFS7E.html)

Published: Apr 21, 2005


HOMOSASSA - Jessica Marie ``Jessie'' Lunsford spent the last hours of her life bound and buried alive in a partial kneeling position while she clutched one of her favorite dolls, a purple stuffed dolphin, prosecutors say in documents released Wednesday.

When her body was found buried March 19 in a 4-foot- deep grave, the 9-year-old Citrus County girl was wrapped in two plastic trash bags that were knotted at her head and feet, the state attorney's office said in 292 pages of evidence - released to the defense Tuesday - that revealed the nature of her death.

The files include statements from investigators, the coroner's office and John Evander Couey, 46, the convicted sex offender who investigators say gave them a statement saying he raped and killed Jessie.

The documents released Wednesday say Jessie's wrists were bound with stereo wire and two of her fingers poked through the plastic, arguably an indication she tried to escape her makeshift tomb.

The documents also say she was kept alive for an unspecified period near the home she shared with her father, Mark, and grandparents, Archie and Ruth.

Authorities say Couey gave them information only her killer would know.

Jessie was buried 150 yards from her home, behind a trailer Couey shared with three other adults.

She was dressed in shorts and a tank-top shirt, different from the nightgown authorities and her family say she wore before she disappeared.

A coroner's report states she suffocated.

The documents say there was no other sign of trauma.

Assistant State Attorney Pete Magrino would not discuss the taped statements by Couey or other details of the case.

The recording ``will not be released to the public until the trial,'' Magrino said.

Couey is charged with first- degree murder, sexual battery on a child under 12, kidnapping, and burglary with battery.

Prosecutors say they will seek the death penalty if he is convicted on the murder charge.

Couey, despite his recorded statement to authorities, has pleaded not guilty.

His court-appointed attorney, Assistant Public Defender Dan Lewan, could not be reached for comment.

Investigators say Jessie's grave was partially concealed by a mound of leaves and debris that littered the back yard where she was buried. It is still not known whether she was buried before deputies, volunteers and search dogs combed the yard in the first days of their search.

Citrus County Sheriff Jeff Dawsy has said Couey's account of things was jumbled because he was in a drug haze at the time of the crimes. Evidence collected near the grave includes two glass crack-cocaine pipes and three pornographic magazines, according to investigators' statements.

Other sheriff's interviews suggest that Couey's three housemates used alcohol and drugs and may have harbored him from deputies seeking to arrest him on a misdemeanor violation of probation charge shortly after Jessie was reported missing.

Last month, his half sister, Dorothy Marie Dixon, 47; Madie Catherine Secord, 27; and Matthew Oley Dittrich, 31, were charged with misdemeanor obstruction, but prosecutors dropped the charges, saying Florida lacks a law making lying to deputies a crime in their case.

Meanwhile, investigators searching Couey's bedroom say they seized the sleeve from a Shirley Temple videotape, ``Curly Top,'' and several items of bedding or clothing that tested positive for blood or could contain blood samples. The file has no information about the source of the blood.

They unsuccessfully sought a pair of leather gloves authorities say Couey said he wore during the abduction.

On Feb. 23, the night she was last seen alive by her family, Jessie went to church. She was discovered missing by her father the next morning, a day she anticipated taking the Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test, documents say.

A door of the family's mobile home was found unlocked.

Prosecutors say sometime during the night of Feb. 23 or early the next morning, Couey slipped into the Lunsford home and snatched the girl, leaving no signs of a struggle and without waking her grandparents, who were sleeping in another part of the house.

At the time, authorities say, he had not reported his move to Jessie's neighborhood. Registered sex offenders are required to report a change of address.

Couey was stopped on a probation violation March 12 in Savannah, Ga., but the warrant did not carry out-of-state arrest authority, so he was released. He was arrested on a revised warrant March 17.

The next day, after he underwent a polygraph test but before he knew the results, he made a statement of guilt, authorities say.

Imrahil
April 21st, 2005, 06:42 PM
You overcome evil with the preaching of the gospel and calling people to repentance. This is overcoming evil with good. It is good to preach the gospel.
If the death penalty is not permissable today, and we are to speak out against evil and call people to repentance, why did Paul express support for capital punishment in Acts 25:11?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:27 PM
If the death penalty is not permissable today, and we are to speak out against evil and call people to repentance, why did Paul express support for capital punishment in Acts 25:11? Acts 25:11 speaks nothing of God ordaining governments to put to death criminals. Besides, the apostle Paul did not call for the following individuals to submit to the authorities to be put to death...the "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders." Rather, he said they were "washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Was Paul wrong to not call these individuals to submit to the governing authorities to be put to death?
Did Paul have an obligation, if there was a call for the death penalty for those comitting these capital crimes, to ensure they were placed in the hand's of the authorities to be put to death?

It appears Paul was more interested in their restoration then their death. For they were active members of the church body. My friend, the gospel message of healing, forgiveness, and repentance is more effective then calling for death as seen in the first century church at Corinth.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:31 PM
Hey Freak, should we let this guy live????? :madmad:Answer the question, Freak.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:33 PM
Answer the question, Freak. I already answered the question with my very first post when I stated:

"I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments)."

If God wants anyone to die, trust me, He will ensure they die. He's not powerless!

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:34 PM
I already answered the question with my very first post when I stated:

"I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments)."

If God wants anyone to die, trust me, He will ensure they die. He's not powerless!So, what do you believe is proper punishment for this situation?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:39 PM
So, what do you believe is proper punishment for this situation? I answered that too in my very first post when I said:

"In this, the New Covenant gives liberty in the area of punishment. The death penalty however is not an option, as the New Covenant does not give the governments of the world an allowance to put to death criminals."

Mr. 5020, I believe God does a better job in putting to death those whom He believes merits death then we humans.

In fact, God will not be mocked...

...but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay..."

This is a promise from holy God. His vegenace is better! The key word to note is: I.

He will repay.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:43 PM
I answered that too in my very first post when I said:

"In this, the New Covenant gives liberty in the area of punishment. The death penalty however is not an option, as the New Covenant does not give the governments of the world an allowance to put to death criminals."

Mr. 5020, I believe God does a better job in putting to death those whom He believes merits death then we humans.

In fact, God will not be mocked...

...but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay..."

This is a promise from holy God. His vegenace is better! The key word to note is: I.

He will repay.So, you would be okay with paper-cutting him once per second until he passed out, then starting over again when he woke up, but not killing him?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:47 PM
So, you would be okay with paper-cutting him once per second until he passed out, then starting over again when he woke up, but not killing him? Re-phrase your question. Not understanding you.

As I stated, the triune God is quite capable of putting to death people who commit crimes/sins worthy of death. In one day the Holy Trinity put to death tens of thousands of sinful people. If death is merited then He'll take their lives. Life and death belongs to HIM not the government. Governments should punish and seek to bring about redemptive justice.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:48 PM
Re-phrase your question. Not understanding you.

As I stated, the triune God is quite capable of putting to death people who commit crimes/sins worthy of death. In one day the Holy Trinity to put to death tens of thousands of sinful people. If death is merited then He'll take their lives. Life and death belongs to HIM not the government.In other words, you're ok with extreme inhumane torture, but not death.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:49 PM
In other words, you're ok with extreme inhumane torture, but not death. I never said that. I do not believe there is anything redemptive in torturing people.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:53 PM
I never said that. I do not believe there is anything redemptive in torturing people.But you did say...

"In this, the New Covenant gives liberty in the area of punishment. The death penalty however is not an option, as the New Covenant does not give the governments of the world an allowance to put to death criminals."

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 08:57 PM
[font=Verdana]But you did say... Yes, governments have some liberty in doling out punishment. But, as with anything in life, we should attempt to mirror the way Jesus dealt with criminals like the woman in John 4 or the murderer apostle Paul...

I stated clearly:

The New Covenant calls for redemptive justice—what we see Jesus did for the Samaritan woman, the apostle Paul, and others. You restore when there is repentance. When there in no repentance, call for punishment (see Romans 13).

Redemptive justice calls for trying to restore, when possible, like the church in Corinth. Besides, God can put to death, anyone, when needed. ;)

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 08:58 PM
Yes, governments have some liberty in doling out punishment. But, as with anything in life, we should attempt to mirror the way Jesus dealt with criminals like the woman in John 4 or the murderer apostle Paul...So we should have arrested Jessie's murderer, and then said, "Go, and sin no more." Am I understanding you right?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:02 PM
So we should have arrested Jessie's murderer, and then said, "Go, and sin no more." Am I understanding you right? There are times when governments allow pardons. Each case needs to be dealt with, with redemptive justice in mind.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:05 PM
There are times when governments allow pardons. Each case needs to be dealt with, with redemptive justice in mind.:BillyBob: is right, :freak:, you are a :Commie:.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:07 PM
:BillyBob: is right, :freak:, you are a :Commie:. Thanks, Mr. 5020 for the short run at discussing this issue. I knew the personal attack would rear it's ugly head.

Why not deal with these objections I raised in my very first post, instead of calling me a commie:

The Old Covenant which called for the governing authorities to utilize the death penalty was temporary. A greater covenant was spoken of that would illuminate us (see Hebrews 7:22) to a better means in dealing with crimes and sins—on a personal & governmental level. The Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).

Under the superior New Covenant, God began to enlighten His people of a better means in dealing with sin/crime-the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ which reconciles, restores, redeems, and forgives. The Gospel is more powerful then the Law (see Romans 1:16), for the Law is bondage (see Galatians 4). Governments which consist of individuals should be directed to live (and in providing societal order) according to precepts found in the better covenant which has a better way of dealing with criminals.

Let’s look at how Jesus and New Covenant believers dealt with those guilty of capital crimes:

•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 09:08 PM
God has given the govenment the job of putting murderers to death.
Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:12 PM
God has given the govenment the job of putting murderers to death.Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer.

God doles out the death penalty whenever He pleases. It's not the governments place.

Romans 13:
Romans 13 doesn't give governments the right to put people to death. It merely says they can, "execute wrath on him who practices evil."

Wrath does not=death penalty.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:13 PM
Thanks, Mr. 5020 for the short run at discussing this issue. I knew the personal attack would rear it's ugly head.

Why not deal with these objections I raised in my very first post, instead of calling me a commie:Actually, I took the time to ask you several questions before declaring you a commie.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:14 PM
Actually, I took the time to ask you several questions before declaring you a commie. Questions that were already answered in my very first post. :bang:

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:15 PM
God doles out the death penalty whenever He pleases. It's not the governments place.
Romans 13 doesn't give governments the right to put people to death. It merely says they can, "execute wrath on him who practices evil."

Wrath does not=death penalty.
Sounds like God appointed the governing authorities to make those decisions, which is probably why God hasn't called you to politics.

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 09:16 PM
I already answered the question with my very first post when I stated:

"I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments)."

If God wants anyone to die, trust me, He will ensure they die. He's not powerless!

So Romans 13 no longer applies, God will just kill murderers when He is ready. The number of murders and people on death row keeps increasing. Has God become more lenient lately?

When a judge does sentence a murderer to be put to death, is God going to judge the judge for murder?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:16 PM
Questions that were already answered in my very first post. :bang:
For clarification purposes. I wanted to make absolutely sure you were a commie before I called you one.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:17 PM
Sounds like God appointed the governing authorities to make those decisions, which is probably why God hasn't called you to politics.

Q: The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, why were they not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 09:21 PM
Bzzzzzz. Wrong answer.

God doles out the death penalty whenever He pleases. It's not the governments place.
Romans 13 doesn't give governments the right to put people to death. It merely says they can, "execute wrath on him who practices evil."

Wrath does not=death penalty.

Romans 13:
4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

So what is the sword for? Are they going to tickle him?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:21 PM
Q: The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, why were they not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
Because that was not the "law of the land." Paul never said to do things that were illegal.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:23 PM
So Romans 13 no longer applies, That's a silly question. Of course Romans 13 applies but I simply stated that wrath does not =death penalty.


God will just kill murderers when He is ready.. yes, imagine that! He's not afriad to do so!!


The number of murders and people on death row keeps increasing. Has God become more lenient lately? People die everyday. God takes like all the time, many for crimes/sins that call for death.


When a judge does sentence a murderer to be put to death, is God going to judge the judge for murder? Again, it's not the government's role to put people to death in this dispensation. God is more then capable!! God will judge the governments for acting outside their role as understood in the Scriptures. God will judge all (see Hebrews 9:27).

Q: The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Why?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:25 PM
Romans 13:
4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

So what is the sword for? The "sword" is a symbol of the governments authority. This is quite clear!!

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:26 PM
:wave:

I'm going to bed, Freak. It's good to have you back. :)

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:27 PM
Because that was not the "law of the land." Paul never said to do things that were illegal. So, God's law, in your eyes is only enforceable when it's the "Law of the Land." Do you honestly believe that?

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 09:30 PM
The "sword" is a symbol of the governments authority. This is quite clear!!

I think we all know what a sword is used for, and it is not a symbol.

:hammer:

Servo
April 21st, 2005, 09:33 PM
Romans 13: Freak version:
4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the (the symbol of government) in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath (but not kill) him who practices evil.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:41 PM
Romans 13: Freak version:
4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the (the symbol of government) in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath (but not kill) him who practices evil. The "sword" is the authority the government possesses. God's minister does not bear the authority in vain. They are quite capable of doling out punishment.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 09:53 PM
I think we all know what a sword is used for, and it is not a symbol.

Furthermore, in Romans 13:4 God's Word says that the government is a minister, a helper to those who do what is good. But to those that would do evil, they should be afraid; because the government does not bear the sword for nothing.

In the time that the book of Romans was written the sword was carried by the Roman soldiers. The Roman soldier was charged with protecting the citizens of Rome, and upholding the laws of Rome. In many ways the Roman soldier was the equivalent of the modern day law enforcement officer.

The Roman soldiers were given the "authority" (the sword is the symbolism used) by the Roman government to use force, including the use of the sword, in order to exert the Roman government's authority over those that lived within the control of Rome not to put people to death (unless in self defense).

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 09:58 PM
I already answered the question with my very first post when I stated:

"I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments)."

If God wants anyone to die, trust me, He will ensure they die. He's not powerless!

I see. So your perspective is that God actually killed that precious 9 year old girl and allowed that creepy child molester to live?

You are one sick, twisted puppy Freak. I hope God has the same compassion for your own child that he had for that little girl and when she gets raped and buried alive, I'll remind you of this ridiculous thread.

You're a friggin' wacko! :kookoo:

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 09:59 PM
I see. So your perspective is that God actually killed that precious 9 year old girl and allowed that creepy child molester to live?

You are one sick, twisted puppy Freak. I hope God has the same compassion for your own child that he had for that little girl and when she gets raped and buried alive, I'll remind you of this ridiculous thread.

You're a friggin' wacko! :kookoo::thumb:

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 10:02 PM
I'll tell you what, if you were the person who molested and buried alive my daughter, there would be nowhere for you to hide from my unbridled revenge. I would hunt you down, torture you and laugh in your face as you cried, screamed and prayed to your God for mercy.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:05 PM
I'll tell you what, if you were the person who molested and buried alive my daughter, there would be nowhere for you to hide from my unbridled revenge. I would hunt you down, torture you and laugh in your face as you cried, screamed and prayed to your God for mercy.A little dramatic, but I agree nonetheless.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 10:08 PM
A little dramatic, but I agree nonetheless.


Any more dramatic than kidnapping a 9 year old girl, raping her, tying bags around her head, throwing her in a 4 foot deep hole and burying her alive?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:11 PM
Any more dramatic than kidnapping a 9 year old girl, raping her, tying bags around her head, throwing her in a 4 foot deep hole and burying her alive?Point made, point taken.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 10:12 PM
:up:

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:15 PM
I see. So your perspective is that God actually killed that precious 9 year old girl and allowed that creepy child molester to live?

I never said God killed a girl. Get a grip. Stop reacting out of emotion. I merely pointed out if God wanted to kill a murderer He has no problem doing so and He would do a better job then you ever would.

:loser:

Caille
April 21st, 2005, 10:17 PM
Furthermore, in Romans 13:4 God's Word says that the government is a minister, a helper to those who do what is good. But to those that would do evil, they should be afraid; because the government does not bear the sword for nothing.

In the time that the book of Romans was written the sword was carried by the Roman soldiers. The Roman soldier was charged with protecting the citizens of Rome, and upholding the laws of Rome. In many ways the Roman soldier was the equivalent of the modern day law enforcement officer.

The Roman soldiers were given the "authority" (the sword is the symbolism used) by the Roman government to use force, including the use of the sword, in order to exert the Roman government's authority over those that lived within the control of Rome not to put people to death (unless in self defense).




Didn't most of the early christians get put to death by the Roman government ?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:19 PM
Didn't most of the early christians get put to death by the Roman government ? Christians were killed for their faith in Jesus. Many different kinds of people kill Christians. Why do you ask?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:22 PM
Hey Freak, I think you forgot to respond to this part. :D

You are one sick, twisted puppy Freak. I hope God has the same compassion for your own child that he had for that little girl and when she gets raped and buried alive, I'll remind you of this ridiculous thread.

BillyBob
April 21st, 2005, 10:23 PM
I never said God killed a girl. Get a grip. Stop reacting out of emotion. I merely pointed out if God wanted to kill a murderer He has no problem doing so and He would do a better job then you ever would.

:loser:

I'm not being emotional, I am being logical. Your assertion is that God is in control and will dole out punishment appropriately. My assertion is that if God is in control, why did he allow the rape, torture and murder of that little girl in the first place?

By the way, how could God do a better job killing someone than me? A dead person is just as dead regardless of who pulled the trigger. :dead:

Caille
April 21st, 2005, 10:26 PM
Christians were killed for their faith in Jesus. Many different kinds of people kill Christians. Why do you ask?




Originally Posted by Freak

Furthermore, in Romans 13:4 God's Word says that the government is a minister, a helper to those who do what is good. But to those that would do evil, they should be afraid; because the government does not bear the sword for nothing.



Was the government being a minister, a helper to those who do what is good ?

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:27 PM
Was the government being a minister, a helper to those who do what is good ?:thumb:

Caille
April 21st, 2005, 10:28 PM
I'm not being emotional, I am being logical. Your assertion is that God is in control and will dole out punishment appropriately. My assertion is that if God is in control, why did he allow the rape, torture and murder of that little girl in the first place?







If God is in control, why does evil exist ?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:28 PM
I'm not being emotional, I am being logical. Your assertion is that God is in control and will dole out punishment appropriately. My assertion is that if God is in control, why did he allow the rape, torture and murder of that little girl? God could & does, at times intervene, when tragedy strikes, it's up to Him to make those decisions not YOU or me.

Yes, God is on the throne and is alive. He is not silent. Satan sure isn't on the throne.


By the way, how could God do a better job killing someone than me? A dead person is just as dead regardless of who pulled the trigger. :dead: God is Creator of the human body. You're not and He knows how to judge a body, soul, and spirit. Besides, God also sends people to hell where you can't and they can experience His wrath even more.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:29 PM
Yes, God is on the throne and is alive. He is not silent. Satan sure isn't on the throne.You mean Satan the "god of this world,' or Satan "the prince of the power of the air"?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:30 PM
Was the government being a minister, a helper to those who do what is good ? There are times the government screws up in their roles--i.e. creating laws in the US to allow baby killing.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:30 PM
God is Creator of the human body. You're not and He knows how to judge a body, soul, and spirit. Besides, God also sends people to hell where you can't and they can experience His wrath even more.So God can't send them to hell if BB takes 'em out?

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:31 PM
You mean Satan the "god of this world,' or Satan "the prince of the power of the air"? Just because Satan is the "god of this world" that doesn't mean He has ultimate power like Jesus has.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:32 PM
If God is in control, why does evil exist ? God does allow free will.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:33 PM
So God can't send them to hell if BB takes 'em out? God does a better job in venegance, see Romans 12.

Mr. 5020
April 21st, 2005, 10:34 PM
God does a better job in venegance, see Romans 12.Hell is hell, period.

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:35 PM
Hell is hell, period.

...but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord.

I trust the Lord on this one!! :eek:

Freak
April 21st, 2005, 10:36 PM
Good night everyone!!!

BillyBob
April 22nd, 2005, 05:57 AM
God could & does, at times intervene, when tragedy strikes, it's up to Him to make those decisions not YOU or me.

Ah, so now you are saying God is only in control some of the time. Sometimes he chooses to punish murdering rapists and sometimes he chooses to allow them to murder and rape?

C'mon Freak, by your own admission God is only a part time God. That being the case, we have no choice but to create laws and punish those who break them.




Yes, God is on the throne and is alive. He is not silent. Satan sure isn't on the throne.

Who's throne did that murdering child rapist bow down before? It sure wasn't God's. :nono:




God is Creator of the human body. You're not and He knows how to judge a body, soul, and spirit. Besides, God also sends people to hell where you can't and they can experience His wrath even more.

God may decide who is going to Hell, but I can help them get there faster.

BillyBob
April 22nd, 2005, 06:02 AM
Footnote: This idea that God determines who will and will not go to Hell is a theological discussion unto its own and I'd rather stick to the topic of discussing Capital Punishment and why it is necessary in our society.

Thank you all for watching, stay tuned for more wacky comments from Freak.

Freak
April 22nd, 2005, 07:09 AM
Who's throne did that murdering child rapist bow down before? It sure wasn't God's.

Jesus is Lord. Everyone will bow. Satan even has to bow before Jesus!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


God may decide who is going to Hell, but I can help them get there faster. Like I said earlier:

...but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”says the Lord.

I trust the Lord much more then a mere human like you. :p

Caille
April 22nd, 2005, 10:53 AM
Footnote: This idea that God determines who will and will not go to Hell is a theological discussion unto its own and I'd rather stick to the topic of discussing Capital Punishment and why it is necessary in our society.




OK - I'll bite. Why is it necessary in our society ?

Lighthouse
April 22nd, 2005, 10:58 AM
Did these people, whom were guilty of what would be considered capital crimes, have a place in society?

Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

They were not called upon by the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. They were instead...

Washed
Sancitifed
and Justified

And guess what... life worked better then death for these individuals.
Thos people came to Christ. And this verse is about their standing with God, and their forgiveness of their sins, as it pertains to salvation. It has nothing to do, whatsoever, with those who are not in Christ or civil crimes or penalties.

Lighthouse
April 22nd, 2005, 11:16 AM
Oh, forget it. Freak doesn't know how to listen to reason. He's an idiot.

the Sibbie
April 22nd, 2005, 11:17 AM
The New Covenant calls for redemptive justice—what we see Jesus did for the Samaritan woman, the apostle Paul, and others. You restore when there is repentance. When there in no repentance, call for punishment (see Romans 13). In this, the New Covenant gives liberty in the area of punishment. The death penalty however is not an option, as the New Covenant does not give the governments of the world an allowance to put to death criminals. The “sword” mentioned in Romans 13 is referring, symbolically, to the “authority” the government has to punish evil doers not to put them to death. Sorry...jumping into the thread a little late.

But if sword means authority, there is still no guidance as to how the government should execute that authority. By what evidence or example can you say that "sword" is symbolic, let alone what it literally means? Without God's guidence on what sort of punishment fits the crime, goverments are bound to be either too harsh or soft when meting out justice for they have no standard to follow and that standard is bound to change.

the Sibbie
April 22nd, 2005, 11:53 AM
The Roman soldiers were given the "authority" (the sword is the symbolism used) by the Roman government to use force, including the use of the sword, in order to exert the Roman government's authority over those that lived within the control of Rome not to put people to death (unless in self defense).So it's ok for law enforcement officers to kill in self defense, but it's not ok for them to kill in someone else's (murder victim's) defense?

Caille
April 22nd, 2005, 12:14 PM
God does allow free will.



if God is in control, why does he allow the potential for evil ?

Caille
April 22nd, 2005, 12:17 PM
There are times the government screws up in their roles--i.e. creating laws in the US to allow baby killing.




and did Paul or the early martyrs resist the government or try to change it ?

Caille
April 22nd, 2005, 12:19 PM
Oh, forget it. Freak doesn't know how to listen to reason. He's an idiot.




Brandon, I know you want to play too, but the big people are talking now.

Lighthouse
April 22nd, 2005, 12:37 PM
Brandon, I know you want to play too, but the big people are talking now.
:rolleyes:

Freak won't listen to reason, scripture, or anything else. He thinks the covenants between god and His people should be applied to all people.

I used to think the same way he does, then I hit puberty. Freak is an adult. He should be smarter than this. But he's not.

Granite
April 22nd, 2005, 12:40 PM
Brandon, you have no clue about Freak, who he is, or what he thinks. Try treating the man with respect. I have no idea why you've been such an abrasive jerk to the man since he reappeared on TOL.

Caille
April 22nd, 2005, 12:59 PM
Brandon, you have no clue about Freak, who he is, or what he thinks. Try treating the man with respect. I have no idea why you've been such an abrasive jerk to the man since he reappeared on TOL.




you ever read his early threads - he is an abrasive jerk

Granite
April 22nd, 2005, 01:09 PM
Oh, I know. Been here long enough to know that. I just don't understand why he went gunning for Freak right away.

Zakath
April 22nd, 2005, 01:17 PM
Oh, I know. Been here long enough to know that. I just don't understand why he went gunning for Freak right away.
Because Jay is... well, Jay... :freak:

Lighthouse
April 22nd, 2005, 01:21 PM
Because Jay is... well, Jay... :freak:
:darwinsm:

BillyBob
April 22nd, 2005, 01:30 PM
Jesus is Lord. Everyone will bow. Satan even has to bow before Jesus!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.


Whoa, this thread just veered right off the road and Freak was driving!! :noway:

You have a knack for deliberately losing track of a discussion, I'll take that as a win by your inability to answer my direct questions.





I trust the Lord much more then a mere human like you. :p


When I see Him end crime, I will humbly withdraw my support for the punishment of criminals. Until then, I stand as a proponent of the death penalty and a government that is not afraid to punish and execute the worthless dregs of society.

Freak
April 22nd, 2005, 04:24 PM
Sorry...jumping into the thread a little late.

But if sword means authority, there is still no guidance as to how the government should execute that authority. Use the authority "to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (v. 4). Not difficult, Sibbie.

The Roman soldiers were given the "authority" (the sword is the symbolism used) by the Roman government to use force, including the use of the sword, in order to exert the Roman government's authority over those that lived within the control of Rome.

As I stated earlier, the Roman soldier was the equivalent of the modern day law enforcement officer. They did not make judgements concerning the activation of the death penalty. The officers in our day, do not make judgements about death penalities either. They simply serve and protect, to maintain order


By what evidence or example can you say that "sword" is symbolic, Let's for the sake of argument, say the "sword' isn't symbolic. In the time that the book of Romans was written the sword was carried by the Roman soldiers. The Roman soldier was charged with protecting the citizens of Rome not to carry out a death penalties on the streets with "swords."


Without God's guidence on what sort of punishment fits the crime, goverments are bound to be either too harsh or soft when meting out justice for they have no standard to follow and that standard is bound to change. God does gives us guidance. Much could be said on this. In the Scriptures, for example, stealing is considered a evil. In our current dispension, stealing should be dealt with an "agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." The person convicted should be punished with the goal of redemption in mind. There are literally scores of options given to us to accomplish this. The goal is to restore the person not to kill them. Jesus calls the governments of the world to redemptive justice.

Let’s look at how Jesus and New Covenant believers dealt with those guilty of capital crimes:

•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Sibbie, please tell me-- were the believers in 1st Century Corinth unjust by not calling those who were guilty of capital crimes to the death penalty??

Freak
April 22nd, 2005, 04:35 PM
So it's ok for law enforcement officers to kill in self defense, but it's not ok for them to kill in someone else's (murder victim's) defense?
:bang: No, Sibbie, street cops should not be given the right to start killing people, activating the death penalty on those who committed capital crimes. There is a difference between self defense (and protecting others) and activating the death penalty for those guilty of capital crimes. :doh:

Mr. 5020
April 22nd, 2005, 05:10 PM
NOTE:

Freak is a wacko.
Please rep him accordingly.

BillyBob
April 22nd, 2005, 06:54 PM
Yep!

the Sibbie
April 22nd, 2005, 07:01 PM
:bang: No, Sibbie, street cops should not be given the right to start killing people, activating the death penalty on those who committed capital crimes. There is a difference between self defense (and protecting others) and activating the death penalty for those guilty of capital crimes. :doh:Sorry, I should have said government in place of "them".

Mr. 5020
April 22nd, 2005, 07:34 PM
NOTE:

Freak is a wacko.
Please rep him accordingly.

Freak
April 22nd, 2005, 08:10 PM
Brandon, you have no clue about Freak, who he is, or what he thinks. Try treating the man with respect. I have no idea why you've been such an abrasive jerk to the man since he reappeared on TOL.
:up:

wholearmor
April 22nd, 2005, 09:30 PM
I'd say whether you believe in the death penalty or not depends on whether you believe God would like to see more innocent people die than guilty people.

wholearmor
April 22nd, 2005, 09:36 PM
NOTE:


Freak is a wacko.
Please rep him accordingly.

Gladly!

Mr. 5020
April 22nd, 2005, 09:47 PM
Gladly!
:thumb:

Servo
April 22nd, 2005, 09:48 PM
Yes, God is on the throne and is alive. He is not silent. Satan sure isn't on the throne.


Were you on the "throne" when you started this thread?

Mr. 5020
April 22nd, 2005, 09:49 PM
Were you on the "throne" when you started this thread?
:darwinsm:


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Shimei again.
:sozo2:

wholearmor
April 22nd, 2005, 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimei

Were you on the "throne" when you started this thread?

:darwinsm:

Mr 5020:
Quote:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Shimei again.

:sozo2:

WA:
Same thing!

:sozo2:

Servo
April 22nd, 2005, 09:55 PM
Q: The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Why?

Because God has the authority to forgive murders. We do not have that authority. The murdered person is dead and can not forgive the person that murdered them. The government has been granted the authority to carry out the punishment of the murderer. The murderer can repent to God and be forgiven, but the murderer still must receive the punishment due.

Zimfan
April 22nd, 2005, 09:55 PM
Don't worry guys, I gave him some points for ya.

Servo
April 22nd, 2005, 09:58 PM
5020 and WA and Zim,

:o

Servo
April 22nd, 2005, 10:00 PM
Freak, from post #55,

When a judge does sentence a murderer to be put to death, is God going to judge the judge for murder?

Try directly answering the question this time, like "Yes because..." or "No because..."

Agape4Robin
April 22nd, 2005, 10:09 PM
Why shouldn't murderers, rapists and child molesters die?
It's not like they are taken out back and shot immediately following the trial (what I would prefer) so they have a chance to find salvation with Christ.
As with any sin, there are consequences. This is nothing new. God is not mocked, what a man sows, he also reaps!
Life in prison is a slap in the face to the surviving family and victims who deserve justice. They have a life sentence of the repercussions brought about due to the evil acts of the criminals.
Let them deal with God! :sozo2: :Clete:

Servo
April 22nd, 2005, 10:17 PM
Why shouldn't murderers, rapists and child molesters die?
It's not like they are taken out back and shot immediately following the trial (what I would prefer) so they have a chance to find salvation with Christ.
As with any sin, there are consequences. This is nothing new. God is not mocked, what a man sows, he also reaps!
Life in prison is a slap in the face to the surviving family and victims who deserve justice. They have a life sentence of the repercussions brought about due to the evil acts of the criminals.
Let them deal with God! :sozo2: :Clete:

If the murderer is given the death penalty, put him/her to death the next day. This will give them the night to think about what they did and they will have a last chance to repent. Heck, I bet a pastor might even volunteer to witness to them the night before they die. I say there is a 50% chance that they will repent and become saved.

Luke 23:
39Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

43And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Agape4Robin
April 22nd, 2005, 10:30 PM
If the murderer is given the death penalty, put him/her to death the next day. This will give them the night to think about what they did and they will have a last chance to repent. Heck, I bet a pastor might even volunteer to witness to them the night before they die. I say there is a 50% chance that they will repent and become saved.

Luke 23:
39Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."

40But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." 42Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

43And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Rep points for you! :thumb:

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 12:27 AM
•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
the government wouldn't have put her to death. The romans didn't consider adultery to be a capital crime. Put some thought into these things.


•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
Saull was given the authority to kill the people he was killing, by the government of the day.:duh:


•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
1] These people had been redeemed in Christ. They were formerly these things. They had repented. The unrepentant do not fall into this category. Not to mention these people were under governments that most likely allowed for these type of activites. They were Greek after all.

You're really not that smart, are you?

Crow
April 23rd, 2005, 06:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimei

Were you on the "throne" when you started this thread?

:darwinsm:

Mr 5020:
Quote:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Shimei again.



I repped him for you! :chuckle:

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 06:44 AM
Rep points for you! :thumb:
While you're repping, make sure you REP Freak, too.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:16 AM
I'd say whether you believe in the death penalty or not depends on whether you believe God would like to see more innocent people die than guilty people. The Scriptures point out that we all deserve death, judgment, and hell. We are all guilty. The apostle Paul states, "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men..." If it wasn't for God's mercy we'd all be dead and sent to hell.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:19 AM
The government has been granted the authority to carry out the punishment of the murderer. Of course but that does not include putting people to death. The Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:24 AM
the government wouldn't have put her to death. The romans didn't consider adultery to be a capital crime. Put some thought into these things. Why didn't Jesus? I thought you believed Jesus was for putting criminals to death? Did not God (Jesus) consider adultery a capital crime? Why didn't He put her to death?



Saull was given the authority to kill the people he was killing, by the government of the day.:duh: So that makes it right? Did not God (Jesus) consider murder a capital crime? Why didn't He put him to death?


These people had been redeemed in Christ. They were formerly these things. Exactly my point.


They had repented. Good job!!


Not to mention these people were under governments that most likely allowed for these type of activites. They were Greek after all. That didn't answer my question.

The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Why didn't Paul, whom you believed, supported the death penalty, call these offenders to the death penalty.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:32 AM
Why shouldn't murderers, rapists and child molesters die? The "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Do you know why?


As with any sin, there are consequences. This is nothing new. God is not mocked, what a man sows, he also reaps! And we all deserve judgment. God's mercy and grace has allowed us to live.


Life in prison is a slap in the face to the surviving family and victims who deserve justice. Many victims have not called for the death penalty. A very close friend of mine had his wife murdered 8 years ago. He did not want the guy to be put to death but wanted the guy to have the opportunity to trust Christ and be redeemed. Yes, punish with whatever the authorities deemed necessary (except death)!

Jabez
April 23rd, 2005, 07:52 AM
Did God give man the authority to take life?Did God give us commision to make life?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:58 AM
Did God give man the authority to take life? At one time in the Old Covenant but the Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).



Did God give us commision to make life? Yes!

Jabez
April 23rd, 2005, 08:01 AM
At one time in the Old Covenant but the Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).


Yes!
Good to see you back and posting Freak ! Iam glad your here..

Jabez
April 23rd, 2005, 08:06 AM
For me,God created life and it is his to take away.Think about that for a min,whats worse if humankind kills a man hes dead,but if God kills a man hes really dead.Man onlys kills the flesh and the soul remains.The much more severe punishment is Gods.Its a hard pill to swallow human emotions get in the way,but we must remember its Gods way not our own.

BillyBob
April 23rd, 2005, 08:07 AM
That didn't answer my question.


He learned that from you!

BillyBob
April 23rd, 2005, 08:09 AM
Quote:
Did God give us commision to make life?





Yes!


Maybe we should call you 'Freakenstein'.

"It's aliiiiiiive!!!"

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:10 AM
Good to see you back and posting Freak ! Iam glad your here.. Thank you, my friend. Good to see you too. :thumb:

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:12 AM
For me,God created life and it is his to take away. As I stated in my first post:

I firmly believe God directly executes judgment, according to His will and discretion, and death upon men and nations for certain offences. But this is God's prerogative not man's (nor a governments).

PureX
April 23rd, 2005, 09:13 AM
For me,God created life and it is his to take away.Think about that for a min,whats worse if humankind kills a man hes dead,but if God kills a man hes really dead.Man onlys kills the flesh and the soul remains.The much more severe punishment is Gods.Right. And of course we only want the WORST punishment for our fellow men. *smile*

BillyBob
April 23rd, 2005, 09:59 AM
I wonder when Knight is gonna weigh in on this one......

Servo
April 23rd, 2005, 10:03 AM
Of course but that does not include putting people to death. The Old Law which called for the death penalty has been annulled “because of its weakness and unprofitableness” (see Hebrews 7:18).

Hebrews 7
18For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Freak, so does this mean all laws are now null and void? Is it ok to steal now? Or does it mean that we come to Christ though grace and are not saved because of the law?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:14 AM
Hebrews 7
18For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek"')
by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.


Freak, so does this mean all laws are now null and void? Is it ok to steal now? Or does it mean that we come to Christ though grace and are not saved because of the law?

Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

The New Covenant is a superior covenant...based on "better promises." The Old Covenant which called for tithes, sabbath keeping, animal sacrifices, the death penalty, etc has been done away with, in light of the establishment of a better covenant. What Covenant do you presently live under?

As the Scriptures, the objective truth by which we should live by, states:

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.

Servo
April 23rd, 2005, 10:25 AM
Freak, are unbelievers still under the law? Administratively, are believers still under the law? Can a Christian commit adultery or steal from his neighbor because he is under grace? We are not talking about the issue of SALVATION here. We are talking about implementing a JUSTICE SYSTEM and the government's role, ordained by God, to administer JUSTICE. You are confusing The Law (10 Commandments) with law (Government) - God's appointed administrator of justice.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:37 AM
Freak, are unbelievers still under the law? Unbelievers, in light of Gal 3:24, are placed under the "charge" of the law to lead them to Jesus not to put them to death.


Administratively, are believers still under the law?

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

We are NOT under the Old Covenant-law. We are under the New Covenant. Does this mean we do away with the Old? No! We understand the Old through the lens of the New.


Can a Christian commit adultery or steal from his neighbor because he is under grace? No, because the New Covenant calls these sins evil.


We are not talking about the issue of SALVATION here. We are talking about implementing a JUSTICE SYSTEM and the government's role, ordained by God, to administer JUSTICE. You are confusing The Law (10 Commandments) with law (Government) - God's appointed administrator of justice. The New Covenant deals with the implementation of God's criminal justice system--it's just you'd like to bring the priniciples of the Old to bear on the New. And I'm telling you--the old has been annuled because of its "weakness and unprofitableness."

For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

The New Covenant offers life and redemptive justice. The Old Covenant cannot bring righteousness in this dispension.

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 12:29 PM
For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him:
"The LORD has sworn
And will not relent,
"You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek"')
by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.



Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man.
For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

The New Covenant is a superior covenant...based on "better promises." The Old Covenant which called for tithes, sabbath keeping, animal sacrifices, the death penalty, etc has been done away with, in light of the establishment of a better covenant. What Covenant do you presently live under?

As the Scriptures, the objective truth by which we should live by, states:

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete.
Covenant is not law! :doh:

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 05:37 PM
Covenant is not law! :doh:The OT Law was found under the Old Covenant. :doh:

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 06:03 PM
The OT Law was found under the Old Covenant. :doh:
still not the covenant..... :rolleyes:
BTW....which covenant would you be referring to?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 06:08 PM
still not the covenant. Where is the OT Law located at? :rolleyes:

BTW....which covenant would you be referring to? :bang:

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 06:11 PM
Greetings, Freak


:bang:

It's a legitimate question, Freak. I can think of four separate covenants in the OT without even making my braincells break into a sweat.

Justin

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 06:16 PM
Where is the OT Law located at? :rolleyes:
:bang:
In the first 5 books of the bible..

What??!!!! There is more than one covenant, right? Or is it dispensation I'm thinking of?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 06:28 PM
Greetings, Freak



It's a legitimate question, Freak. I can think of four separate covenants in the OT without even making my braincells break into a sweat.

Justin There are two covenants--the old and new.

"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 06:30 PM
In the first 5 books of the bible.. Old Testament law is found in various places in the Old Covenant.


What??!!!! There is more than one covenant, right? Or is it dispensation I'm thinking of? Yes, there are 2 covenants--the old and new.

"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 06:40 PM
Old Testament law is found in various places in the Old Covenant.

Yes, there are 2 covenants--the old and new.

"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."
Ok...I get that. :thumb:
But most states in the U.S. have death penalty laws. God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law. So, if a murderer or rapist defies the law, then they reap the obvious penalty of their crime.
Statistics show that such people who commit these crimes are not rehabilitated. It is our governments job to remove these people from society. It is not the governments job to help them find forgiveness in Christ.
Not to mention that the average time spent on death row is approximately 8-15 years!

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 06:46 PM
Ok...I get that. :thumb: Great!!



But most states in the U.S. have death penalty laws. God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law. Re-read my first post. Food for thought: What if the government puts into place a unrighteous law (i.e. abortion laws), would you still support it?

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 06:54 PM
Great!!

Re-read my first post. Food for thought: What if the government puts into place a unrighteous law (i.e. abortion laws), would you still support it?
I don't perform abortions, nor do I encourage them....this does not apply to me.
But if I did....then I would be protected under the law, however, if I commit a murder, the law does not support my actions and I will be punished according to the law of the state in which I committed the crime.

But the fact that I am a christian means that I am under God's dispensation of grace. It is the gift of God that I have accepted and applied to my life. The blood of Christ covers me.
But not so for everyone!

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:12 PM
I don't perform abortions, nor do I encourage them....this does not apply to me.

But you just said:

"God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

Do you support the present abortion laws that your government has put in place? Should women have the right to kill their babies?

I'm a hardcore pro-lifer and you?

Robin, there are some laws that we must not obey for variety of reasons.

Perhaps you need to go back and revise your statement.

And before we get too off track please a take a jab at my first post and deal with the objections, please. Thanks.

Jabez
April 23rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
I'm not as interested in what your interpretation of the Bible is as I am in US and State Law.

Capital Punishment is currently the law of the land whether you like it or not. If you think it is wrong, consult your local Congressman.

Personally, I think Capital Punishment should be used more frequently and with little delay between sentencing and execution.

I feel ya BB, ive said many times we should bring back public hangings and such.Then i think is this what we are to become?I understand there are laws and when broken must be paid,i couldnt put myself in the postion to pull the trigger.Only time i would do harm is in the act.Thats to say i walk in on my daughter being raped,i feel i have the right to take that life to protect my daughter.I know how i feel,then i ask myself is this how God feels?I cant say yes, without uncertainy.

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
But you just said:

"God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

Do you support the present abortion laws that your government has put in place? Should women have thr right to kill their babies?

Robin, there are some laws that we must not obey for variety of reasons.

Perhaps you need to go back and revise your statement.
Well, according to the law, they do. I don't have to agree with it, and I don't, but I am not going to kill abortion doctors because I disagree with it.

I don't need to revise my statement......I stand by it.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 07:20 PM
Well, according to the law, they do. I don't have to agree with it, and I don't, but I am not going to kill abortion doctors because I disagree with it. Who said anything about killing abortion doctors? :bang:

You said: "God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

And I'm telling you there are many unrighteous or wrong laws in place that need to be either changed/or rejected (i.e. abortion, same sex unions). There are even laws against "prayer in school.' Do you obey that law because "God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."


I don't need to revise my statement......I stand by it. :doh:

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 07:23 PM
Who said anything about killing abortion doctors? :bang:

You said: "God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

And I'm telling you there are many unrighteous or wrong laws in place that need to be either changed/or rejected (i.e. abortion, same sex unions). There are even laws against "prayer in school.' Do you obey that law because "God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

:doh:

Let me see if I got this straight...... you are against the death penalty because you think it's wrong. :think:

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 07:25 PM
There are two covenants--the old and new.

That is incorrect--not so much an error, but an ambiguity.

The four covenants in the OT that I can think of right off are:
* The Noahic Covenant: where God promises to never again destroy all life with a flood. (Gen 9)
* The Abrahamic Covenant: where God promises Abraham that he will be the father of many nations. (Gen 12)
* The Mosaic Covenant: where God conditionally promises Canaan to the Israelites, provided they obey His laws. (Ex 19 ... the actual law follows starting in Ch. 20)
* The Davidic Covenant: where God promises David the throne. (2 Sam 7)


"But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

But which covenant are you referring to? I would assume that you are referring to the Mosaic covenant, but let me get your answer so we don't have any ambiguities.

Justin

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 07:32 PM
That is incorrect--not so much an error, but an ambiguity.

The four covenants in the OT that I can think of right off are:
* The Noahic Covenant: where God promises to never again destroy all life with a flood. (Gen 9)
* The Abrahamic Covenant: where God promises Abraham that he will be the father of many nations. (Gen 12)
* The Mosaic Covenant: where God conditionally promises Canaan to the Israelites, provided they obey His laws. (Ex 19 ... the actual law follows starting in Ch. 20)
* The Davidic Covenant: where God promises David the throne. (2 Sam 7)



But which covenant are you referring to? I would assume that you are referring to the Mosaic covenant, but let me get your answer so we don't have any ambiguities.

Justin
That's it!!!!! :BRAVO:
That's what I was referring to!
Thanks Justin! :thumb:

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 07:44 PM
And I'm telling you there are many unrighteous or wrong laws in place that need to be either changed/or rejected (i.e. abortion, same sex unions). There are even laws against "prayer in school.' Do you obey that law because "God says he placed our government over us and we must obey the law."

:doh:
There are no laws against "prayer in school." There are laws against teacher-led public prayer in schools, though, and there is a huge difference. If a teacher ever told a student that he could not pray in school, I hope that student makes contact with the ACLJ (http://www.aclj.org) very quickly.

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 07:53 PM
There are no laws against "prayer in school." There are laws against teacher-led public prayer in schools, though, and there is a huge difference. If a teacher ever told a student that he could not pray in school, I hope that student makes contact with the ACLJ (http://www.aclj.org) very quickly.
:freak: Booyah!!!!!!!!!!!! :banana:

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 07:55 PM
Why didn't Jesus? I thought you believed Jesus was for putting criminals to death? Did not God (Jesus) consider adultery a capital crime? Why didn't He put her to death?
Try to pay attention, this time... please.

1] It was against the law of the land for citizens [of which Jesus was one] to put anyone to death for any reason. The Roman government did not allow it. And the Mosaic law didn;t even allow it. It was always up to the government to execute those guilty of capital crimes. And the Roman law did not consider adultery to be a capital crime, if it considered it to be a crime at all.
2] The Mosaic law stipulated that both parties caught in adultery were to be brought, together, to be executed, anyway. They only brought the woman. They were breaking the Mosaic law, themselves. Which is most likely what Jesus pointed out in His writing on the ground. So, if Jesus had said she should be executed, then He would have been breaking both the Mosaic, and Roman laws. He broke neither.


So that makes it right? Did not God (Jesus) consider murder a capital crime? Why didn't He put him to death?
1] It was not legally considered murder! Get that through your thick head! The Christians were charged with blasphemy, and found guilty, so they were put to death.
2] Jesus confronted Saul and Saul repented! He stopped putting Christians to death! He was cleared, by God, because He repented! And since he had only killed legally, the government had no reaon to put him to death for what he did.


Exactly my point.
No it isn't. The point of what Paul wrote was that these people would not suffer eternal seperation from God, because they had been made clean of their sins, by Him. It says nothing about whether or not they should suffer the civil penalties, if there were civil penalties. If a man murders someone, then gets saved, he will not go to hell for his murder, but he should still suffer the civil penalty of death. Of course, in America this isn't very likely. So, instead, we get overpopulated prisons and murderers, rapists and child molesters getting out of prison, only to murder, rape and molest again. And recidivism rates are up. If the law did the job it should do, then recidivism wouldn't be an issue.


Good job!!
I shouldn't be surprised that you can't see how blind you are.


That didn't answer my question.

The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Why didn't Paul, whom you believed, supported the death penalty, call these offenders to the death penalty.
Yes it did. Are you really that stupid? Greek law did not stipulate that these offences were capital offences. In fact, they weren't even considered offences by the Greek authorities. So who would Paul have reported them to? And when did Paul every say he didn't think the law should put such people to death, for their offences. The least you can argue is that those who turn from their ways should be free of capital punishment, but a real man would take his punishment, even moreso if he has come to Christ, because he would understand his guilt even more clearly.

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 08:00 PM
The least you can argue is that those who turn from their ways should be free of capital punishment, but a real man would take his punishment, even moreso if he has come to Christ, because he would understand his guilt even more clearly.
Even "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer acknowledged that!

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:09 PM
There are no laws against "prayer in school." Then you write this...


There are laws against teacher-led public prayer in schools, though, and there is a huge difference.
:BRAVO: You got it!!

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 09:11 PM
:BRAVO: You got it!!

Oh, you like the thought of teacher-led prayers in school? Shall I start the students with prayers to the Great Goddess, or shall we simply call the Quarters and be done with it?

Justin

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:12 PM
Then you write this...

:BRAVO: You got it!!
How in the world are you twisting that around to make yourself seem right?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:12 PM
But which covenant are you referring to? I would assume that you are referring to the Mosaic covenant, but let me get your answer so we don't have any ambiguities.

JustinJesus mentioned a "Old Covenant" and a "New Covenant." The Old Covenant would include all the following: The Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenan, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:15 PM
How in the world are you twisting that around to make yourself seem right? first you stated:

"There are no laws against "prayer in school."

In response to me saying there was.

Then you acknowledged:

"There are laws against teacher-led public prayer in schools,"

:doh:

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:16 PM
first you stated:

"There are no laws against "prayer in school."

In response to me saying there was.

Then you acknowledged:

"There are laws against teacher-led public prayer in schools,"

:doh:
Perhaps I made the mistake of assuming that your skull contained brain cells within itself. Let me clarify:

There are no laws stating that one cannot pray in school. There are only laws stating that teachers cannot lead public prayers.

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 09:26 PM
Jesus mentioned a "Old Covenant" and a "New Covenant." The Old Covenant would include all the following: The Noahic Covenant, the Abrahamic Covenan, the Mosaic Covenant, and the Davidic Covenant.

Heb 8:7-9
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

So let me get this straight ... since the New Covenant replaced the Old, can we assume ....
* that God's promise to not destroy the earth by flood is no longer valid?
* That Abraham's descendants are no longer blessed?
* That the Law is no longer in effect?
* That the line of David are no longer kings?

Justin

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 09:26 PM
I'd say whether you believe in the death penalty or not depends on whether you believe God would like to see more innocent people die than guilty people.


The Scriptures point out that we all deserve death, judgment, and hell. We are all guilty. The apostle Paul states, "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men..." If it wasn't for God's mercy we'd all be dead and sent to hell.


So let me see if I understand you correctly (which is a scary thought in and of itself). :freak: By not implementing the death penalty, the number of murders of innocent people are much higher than they would be otherwise but it's OK with you that the innocents die and the guilty live and you believe that's OK with God too, right?

Put another way, if we all deserve death, judgment, and hell, then why should more innocent people realize on untimely death than guilty people?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:29 PM
1] It was against the law of the land for citizens [of which Jesus was one] to put anyone to death for any reason. The Roman government did not allow it. And the Mosaic law didn;t even allow it. It was always up to the government to execute those guilty of capital crimes. And the Roman law did not consider adultery to be a capital crime, if it considered it to be a crime at all. Where is your fidelity to the truth? It is you that is claiming the death penalty should be enforced when God's laws are broken. Should they not have at least submitted to the authorties and admitted their guilt and asked for the death penalty?



2] The Mosaic law stipulated that both parties caught in adultery were to be brought, together, to be executed, anyway. They only brought the woman. They were breaking the Mosaic law, themselves. Which is most likely what Jesus pointed out in His writing on the ground. So, if Jesus had said she should be executed, then He would have been breaking both the Mosaic, and Roman laws. He broke neither. Better re-read what I actually posted. You're referring to the woman in John 8. I wasn't and you had the nerve to say to me:


Try to pay attention, this time... please Try to pay attention next time before I simply place you on ignore.


The Christians were charged with blasphemy, and found guilty, so they were put to death. What Christians were charged with blasphemy?


2] Jesus confronted Saul and Saul repented! He stopped putting Christians to death! He was cleared, by God, because He repented! And since he had only killed legally, the government had no reaon to put him to death for what he did. But, I thought you said Jesus was pro-death penalty. Why didn't Jesus call Paul to the death penalty as Jesus would have expected Paul to die for his capital crimes. So what if the government endorsed his killing, should not have Jesus called Paul to willingly submit to the death penalty as he was guilty of a capital crime?


Greek law did not stipulate that these offences were capital offences. But I thought, at least in your mind, God's law did? Should not have the people of God submitted to God's law in regards to this? Or no? So, if a nation doesn't embrace God's laws one can be free to break the laws of God?


In fact, they weren't even considered offences by the Greek authorities. So who would Paul have reported them to? Where is your fidelity to the truth? It is you that is claiming the death penalty should be enforced when God's laws are broken. Should they not have at least submitted to the authorties and admitted their guilt and asked for the death penalty?

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:33 PM
Heb 8:7-9

So let me get this straight ... since the New Covenant replaced the Old, can we assume ....

* That the Law is no longer in effect?


Justin No, we do not sacrifice animals, keep the sabbath, tithe, etc, etc.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:34 PM
Oh, you like the thought of teacher-led prayers in school? Shall I start the students with prayers to the Great Goddess, or shall we simply call the Quarters and be done with it?

Justin That can be a topic of another thread if you like.

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:34 PM
No, we do not sacrifice animals, keep the sabbath, tithe, etc, etc.
You didn't answer the rest of them.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:35 PM
Let me see if I got this straight...... you are against the death penalty because you think it's wrong. :think: Re-read my first post and you tell me. :doh:

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 09:38 PM
Re-read my first post and you tell me. :doh:




You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Freak again. :mad:

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:38 PM
There are no laws stating that one cannot pray in school. There are only laws stating that teachers cannot lead public prayers. My point stands! There are unrighteous laws regarding prayer in schools as teachers, in the school, are not permitted to lead public prayers. The government has created scores of unrighteous laws like this. :cry:

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 09:42 PM
My point stands! There are unrighteous laws regarding prayer in schools as teachers, in the school, are not permitted to lead public prayers. The government has created scores of unrighteous laws like this. :cry:

Righteous or unrighteous, you are require--by your scriptures--to follow those laws or face the consequences.

Justin

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:43 PM
You didn't answer the rest of them.


* That God's promise to not destroy the earth by flood is no longer valid? This isn't a OT law.


* That Abraham's descendants are no longer blessed? This isn't a OT law.


* That the line of David are no longer kings? This isn't a OT law.

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:43 PM
:mad:

Taken care of...

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:44 PM
This isn't a OT law.

This isn't a OT law.

This isn't a OT law.
He said Old Covenants, not OT laws.

Mr. 5020
April 23rd, 2005, 09:44 PM
My point stands! There are unrighteous laws regarding prayer in schools as teachers, in the school, are not permitted to lead public prayers. The government has created scores of unrighteous laws like this. :cry:
As mentioned earlier, there would be severe consequences to letting teachers lead prayers. Not all (most) public school teachers are Christians.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:45 PM
Righteous or unrighteous, you are require--by your scriptures--to follow those laws or face the consequences.

Justin Actually, Justin, Christians may be allowed to break laws, at times.

Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 09:45 PM
This isn't a OT law.

This isn't a OT law.

This isn't a OT law.

I'm not asking about OT law--you said that the New Covenant replaced the Old, and you said that all of these promises were part of the Old Covenant. Now, do these promises stand, or do they not?

Justin

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:46 PM
He said Old Covenants, not OT laws.
The New Covenant replaced the laws of the Old Covenant so those items he mentioned would not apply as they are not OT laws.

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 09:47 PM
Actually, Justin, Christians may be allowed to break laws, at times.

Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Peter and John certainly made the decision to disregard man's law for God's. However, they still faced the consequences in man's courts. These are the consequences I am speaking of.

Justin

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:49 PM
I'm not asking about OT law--you said that the New Covenant replaced the Old, and you said that all of these promises were part of the Old Covenant. Now, do these promises stand, or do they not?

Justin The New Covenant replaced the laws of the Old Covenant, as seen in Hebrews 7-10, so those promises you mentioned would not apply as they are not OT laws. For example: the sabbath was a OT law required of the people of God. In Hebrews 4 we read of Jesus being the sabbath rest not a literal day. The New replaced the Old.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:53 PM
Peter and John certainly made the decision to disregard man's law for God's. However, they still faced the consequences in man's courts. These are the consequences I am speaking of.

Justin Christians are under no obligation to obey man when God has spoken on a issue.

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 09:54 PM
Christians are under no obligation to obey man when God has spoken on a issue.
You you are an anarchist? :think:

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:55 PM
As mentioned earlier, there would be severe consequences to letting teachers lead prayers. Not all (most) public school teachers are Christians. The facts are what they are. Teachers are not allowed to lead prayers or read the Scriptures in public. No wonder the problems in the schools. So many unrighteous laws.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 09:56 PM
You you are an anarchist? :think:
Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John replied, “Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”

Were they?

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 09:59 PM
Even "Son of Sam" David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer acknowledged that!
If I recall correctly they both professed Christ, after entering prison. Of course, Dahmer was murdered in prison, and David's still sitting on death row, is he not?

Did you know that if execution was mandatorily swift, Manson would be dead? Apparently, after a few years on death row, capital punishment was doen away with in CA, and so his sentence was overturned, and now he just has life in prison.:doh:

Justin (Wiccan)
April 23rd, 2005, 10:10 PM
The New Covenant replaced the laws of the Old Covenant, as seen in Hebrews 7-10, so those promises you mentioned would not apply as they are not OT laws. For example: the sabbath was a OT law required of the people of God. In Hebrews 4 we read of Jesus being the sabbath rest not a literal day. The New replaced the Old.

That is not what your scriptures state.

Heb 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

It is not the Law that is replaced, but the Covenant as a whole. When Jesus spoke of an "Old Covenant," he was speaking specifically of the Mosaic Covenant--the only one of the four covenants that was conditional. The entire covenant is passed away: not merely the Law, but all of it.

Freak, your beliefs--as stated here and in other threads--are a mish-mash of the traditions of men, not of the Scriptures that you claim to follow. However, I am at this point persuaded that your mind is made up, and that no available information will convince you to give up your opinions for what the Bible actually says. Therefore, I wish you well, and bid you farewell.

Justin

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 10:15 PM
But th
Where is your fidelity to the truth? It is you that is claiming the death penalty should be enforced when God's laws are broken. Should they not have at least submitted to the authorties and admitted their guilt and asked for the death penalty?
What good would it do them if the authorities would not execute them?


Better re-read what I actually posted. You're referring to the woman in John 8. I wasn't and you had the nerve to say to me:
Then what are you referring to?


Try to pay attention next time before I simply place you on ignore.
Go ahead. If you can't follow along, and answer me, then run away. Makes no difference to me.


What Christians were charged with blasphemy?
The ones Saul was executing.:duh:


But, I thought you said Jesus was pro-death penalty. Why didn't Jesus call Paul to the death penalty as Jesus would have expected Paul to die for his capital crimes. So what if the government endorsed his killing, should not have Jesus called Paul to willingly submit to the death penalty as he was guilty of a capital crime?
Was he guilty of a capital crime? No! He was following the law, as far as he knew. Since he beleived that he was following the law, why call him to submit to the death penalty? Not to mention the Jews would not have put him to death for it, because they did not consider him guilty of a capital offence. And the Roman authorites apparently didn't either. And my guess is that neither did any other governing authorities.


But I thought, at least in your mind, God's law did? Should not have the people of God submitted to God's law in regards to this? Or no? So, if a nation doesn't embrace God's laws one can be free to break the laws of God?
And who was supposed to put them to death? No government was following God's law, anywhere near these people. Just like the US doesn't execute child molesters. And unless it is in immediate defense of someone a citizen has no authority, from God or the government, to kill one. So no one is executing child molesters. But the government should.


Where is your fidelity to the truth? It is you that is claiming the death penalty should be enforced when God's laws are broken. Should they not have at least submitted to the authorties and admitted their guilt and asked for the death penalty?
Maybe they should have. But that doesn't mean the authorities would have done it.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:17 PM
That is not what your scriptures state.
It is not the Law that is replaced,

In fact, believers are NOT even under the supervison of the law. Read the Book of Galatians as Paul was quite clear.


but the Covenant as a whole.

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.



When Jesus spoke of an "Old Covenant," he was speaking specifically of the Mosaic Covenant--the only one of the four covenants that was conditional. The entire covenant is passed away: not merely the Law, but all of it. No, re-read Hebrews 8:6:

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

The New is simply superior to the Old. We haven't abolished the Old's history or principles or narratives. The New has replaced the Old's laws as evident in Hebrews 4, for example (i.e. sabbath keeping).



Therefore, I wish you well, and bid you farewell.

Justin Trust me I'm well as I have eternal life through Jesus.

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 10:20 PM
Taken care of...

Teamwork makes the dream work! :chuckle:

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 10:22 PM
What are we all doing up so late?
Church tomorrow!!!!!!

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 10:24 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mr. 5020 again.



:sozo2:

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:25 PM
But th
What good would it do them if the authorities would not execute them? Again, where is the fidelity to the truth? Isn't God's Laws valid regardless if the government sees them as valid? No?



Then what are you referring to? John 4. An apology would have been nice.


Was he guilty of a capital crime? In the eyes of Jesus was he?


Since he beleived that he was following the law, why call him to submit to the death penalty? Do you not believe that the triune God calls all those who have committed capital crimes to face the death penalty? Yes or no?


Not to mention the Jews would not have put him to death for it, because they did not consider him guilty of a capital offence. And the Roman authorites apparently didn't either. And my guess is that neither did any other governing authorities. Again, fidelity to the truth...should not have Jesus, based on the Father's laws, called him to the death penalty because of his past capital crimes?


Maybe they should have. But that doesn't mean the authorities would have done it. Ah! The reason they didn't was because redemption is more important then putting people to death.

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 10:25 PM
What are we all doing up so late?
Church tomorrow!!!!!!

It's only 10:20 here.

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:35 PM
The point is very clear--God did not require any of these individuals to the death penalty:

Let’s look at how Jesus and New Covenant believers dealt with those guilty of capital crimes:

•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.

Because...

The death penalty had been done away with the establishment of the New Covenant. It doesn't matter if their present governments endorsed the death penalty or not, for the fidelity to the truth would have been paramount--and if they were required to submit to the death penalty God would have asked them to submit to it and to call the authorities to take upon action. But God did not require these individuals to the death penalty or to even the governing authorities for the sake of the truth. Reason? The death penalty wasn't the solution!!!

Freak
April 23rd, 2005, 10:39 PM
Goodnight Everyone!!

I think I'll move on from this topic as no one has been able to offer any solid biblical objections to the issues I have raised. Oh well, maybe next time...

Agape4Robin
April 23rd, 2005, 10:41 PM
Goodnight Everyone!!

I think I'll move on from this topic as no one has been able to offer any solid biblical objections to the issues I have raised. Oh well, maybe next time...
sleep tight! :grave:

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 10:54 PM
Has anyone brought up Paul's remarks in Acts 25:10-11? Sounds like he was for the death penalty if he had done anything worthy of it, which he had not.

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 11:26 PM
Again, where is the fidelity to the truth? Isn't God's Laws valid regardless if the government sees them as valid? No?
What should they have done? Should they have killed themselves?


John 4. An apology would have been nice.
So explain what this has to do wiht anything. The governing authorities where she was from did not execute people for adultery. What was she supposed to do? Jesus did not have the civil authority to execute her.


In the eyes of Jesus was he?
No. Because he believed he was followng God's law.


Do you not believe that the triune God calls all those who have committed capital crimes to face the death penalty? Yes or no?
Yes, I do.


Again, fidelity to the truth...should not have Jesus, based on the Father's laws, called him to the death penalty because of his past capital crimes?
What capital crimes?


Ah! The reason they didn't was because redemption is more important then putting people to death.
Ummm... no. The authorites were not followers of God.

You are one of the most idiotic people I have ever had the displeasure of coming across. You can't understand the difference between what the government does, and what it should do.:bang:

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 11:30 PM
Knight-
You can go ahead and ban him again. I'm done with his ignorance.

Knight
April 23rd, 2005, 11:32 PM
Knight-
You can go ahead and ban him again. I'm done with his ignorance.You gotta pay your dues somehow! :D Battle him for a couple more years and then tell me to ban him.

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 11:35 PM
You gotta pay your dues somehow! :D Battle him for a couple more years and then tell me to ban him.

Ya! If I had to, you have to, lighthouse! :chuckle:

Knight
April 23rd, 2005, 11:39 PM
Ya! If I had to, you have to, lighthouse! :chuckle:Kids these days!! :D

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 11:41 PM
Kids these days!! :D

They say the darndest things, don't they? (Where have I heard that before?) :chuckle:

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 11:43 PM
You gotta pay your dues somehow! :D Battle him for a couple more years and then tell me to ban him.
I'll just start quoting Bob, and let Freak get himself banned.:eek:

Knight
April 23rd, 2005, 11:45 PM
I'll just start quoting Bob, and let Freak get himself banned.:eek:Come on dude... you gotta earn your stripes! Us old vets have been down this dark and dusty road a million times. You can't give up yet, your not even out of the driveway!

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 11:50 PM
Come on dude... you gotta earn your stripes! Us old vets have been down this dark and dusty road a million times. You can't give up yet, your not even out of the driveway!

...and it's a short driveway!

Knight
April 23rd, 2005, 11:51 PM
...and it's a short driveway!And it isn't paved. :eek:

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 11:53 PM
And it isn't paved. :eek:

It's not even gravelled.

Lighthouse
April 23rd, 2005, 11:53 PM
Come on dude... you gotta earn your stripes! Us old vets have been down this dark and dusty road a million times. You can't give up yet, your not even out of the driveway!
What, just because I realized the futility af orguing agianst someone who denies what's in fron of his face, quicker than you did?

You hate me because I'm smarter than you?









:eek:

wholearmor
April 23rd, 2005, 11:56 PM
What, just because I realized the futility af orguing agianst someone who denies what's in fron of his face, quicker than you did?

You hate me because I'm smarter than you?









:eek:

It doesn't take anyone long to realize the futility of arguing with Freak. It's kind of a sport, that's why we keep doing it. It's good for grins, too. :D

Lighthouse
April 24th, 2005, 12:00 AM
It doesn't take anyone long to realize the futility of arguing with Freak. It's kind of a sport, that's why we keep doing it. It's good for grins, too. :D
I'm too much like Sozo to put up with it.;)

wholearmor
April 24th, 2005, 12:02 AM
I'm too much like Sozo to put up with it.;)

:think: Hmmmmm..........I wonder what Sozo would think of that?

Lighthouse
April 24th, 2005, 12:07 AM
:think: Hmmmmm..........I wonder what Sozo would think of that?
I could e-mail, and ask, him...

wholearmor
April 24th, 2005, 12:15 AM
I could e-mail, and ask, him...

I could too, come to think of it.

Frank Ernest
April 24th, 2005, 05:22 AM
Abortion, Terri Shiavo, euthanasia, etc.
Lie-berals always seek to kill the innocent and the defenseless.
Capital punishment of a convicted criminal? Why, that's IMMORAL!
:vomit:
:liberals:

BillyBob
April 24th, 2005, 05:42 AM
The death penalty had been done away with the establishment of the New Covenant. It doesn't matter if their present governments endorsed the death penalty or not, for the fidelity to the truth would have been paramount--and if they were required to submit to the death penalty God would have asked them to submit to it and to call the authorities to take upon action. But God did not require these individuals to the death penalty or to even the governing authorities for the sake of the truth. Reason? The death penalty wasn't the solution!!!

If God has a problem with the death penalty, don't you think He has the power to change the hearts of legislators and force them to abolish it? Or is God not powerful enough to do that?

Like I said earlier in a post that you completely ignored [no surprise there], I have no problem punishing criminals and executing murderers. I will happily relinquish my position the day that God decides to eliminate crime. Until then, it is within the power and obligation of the government to punish criminals and that includes executing the worst of them. Not only do I support execution for murder, but I also think it should be used in every case of child molestation.

Hey Michael Jackson.....:dead:

Delmar
April 24th, 2005, 06:39 AM
If God has a problem with the death penalty, don't you think He has the power to change the hearts of legislators and force them to abolish it? Or is God not powerful enough to do that?

Like I said earlier in a post that you completely ignored [no surprise there], I have no problem punishing criminals and executing murderers. I will happily relinquish my position the day the God decides to eliminate crime. Until then, it is within the power and obligation of the government to punish criminals and that includes executing the worst of them. Not only do I support execution for murder, but I also think it should be used in every case of child molestation.

Hey Michael Jackson.....:dead:
Where is Mike. Oh yeah, he's over here in the incinerator!

the Sibbie
April 24th, 2005, 11:36 AM
Use the authority "to bring punishment on the wrongdoer" (v. 4). Not difficult, Sibbie.What I meant is that doesn't give specifics on what the punishment should be. Without considering God's justice system, goverments are free to use any punishment they wish, whether it is just or not.


The Roman soldiers were given the "authority" (the sword is the symbolism used) by the Roman government to use force, including the use of the sword, in order to exert the Roman government's authority over those that lived within the control of Rome.

As I stated earlier, the Roman soldier was the equivalent of the modern day law enforcement officer. They did not make judgements concerning the activation of the death penalty. The officers in our day, do not make judgements about death penalities either. They simply serve and protect, to maintain orderPerhaps the soldiers as individuals didn't carry the sword for executing, but I'm pretty sure the Roman goverment as a whole did have the death penalty. Yet, they didn't necessarily use it in a just manner in every case.


Let's for the sake of argument, say the "sword' isn't symbolic. In the time that the book of Romans was written the sword was carried by the Roman soldiers. The Roman soldier was charged with protecting the citizens of Rome not to carry out a death penalties on the streets with "swords."So they didn't necessarily execute people with swords (in certain cases they may have, though), but they used crucifixion (in which the sword was also used to verify death.)


God does gives us guidance. Much could be said on this. In the Scriptures, for example, stealing is considered a evil. Yes and the punishment for stealing is clearly laid out in Exodus.
Exodus 22:4 - If the theft is certainly found alive in his hand, whether it is an ox or donkey or sheep, he shall restore double.

Exodus 22:7 - "If a man delivers to his neighbor money or articles to keep, and it is stolen out of the man's house, if the thief is found, he shall pay double.

Since this is included in the laws of the Old Covenant, do you think this type of punishment is obsolete for our dispensation today?


Let’s look at how Jesus and New Covenant believers dealt with those guilty of capital crimes:

•The Samaritan Woman in John 4 was guilty of adultery and yet Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.Are you talking about the Samaritan woman who was a fornicator or the adulteress in John 8?

•The Apostle Paul was a murderer and yet when Jesus encountered him He did not command Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death.
•The Christians in Corinth (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-11) who were formerly "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, were not called upon the apostle Paul to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. So why do you advocate that murderers be thrown in prison when Paul wasn't imprisioned?


Sibbie, please tell me-- were the believers in 1st Century Corinth unjust by not calling those who were guilty of capital crimes to the death penalty??Are you asking:
Were they unjust for not executing those criminals?
Were they unjust for not turning the criminals over to the goverment?
Were they unjust for not petitioning to the government to make a law declaring the death penalty for capital crimes?

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 01:48 PM
It seems yall are missing the point.Answer this, Are we given the authority to take life as we see fit?

Poly
April 24th, 2005, 01:52 PM
It seems yall are missing the point.Answer this, Are we given the authority to take life as we see fit?

Which "ya'll" is missing the point?

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 01:59 PM
It seems yall are missing the point.Answer this, Are we given the authority to take life as we see fit?
Answer me this....what punishment is fitting for those who take a life in murder or acts of violence such as rape or child molestation?
If the victims are to recieve justice? What form should it take?

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 02:00 PM
First the question that needs to be answered is. Are we given authority to take life as we see fit?

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 02:02 PM
First the question that needs to be answered is. Are we given authority to take life as we see fit?
"A life for a life".
Seems to me like God says we can.

Your turn!

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 02:03 PM
Answer me this....what punishment is fitting for those who take a life in murder or acts of violence such as rape or child molestation?
If the victims are to recieve justice? What form should it take?

My first thoughts are (iam just being honest) are that i would want to kill them. Thats my way,but is that Gods way too? How can a victim get satisfied with the death of another?The fitting punishment would be prison for life.

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 02:04 PM
My first thoughts are (iam just being honest) are that i would want to kill them. Thats my way,but is that Gods way too? How can a victim get satisfied with the death of another?The fitting punishment would be prison for life.
In what way is that fitting?

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 02:04 PM
"A life for a life".
Seems to me like God says we can.

Your turn!

Eye for an eye, but there is a better way now we call him JESUS

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 02:05 PM
BTW, Jabez...cool avatar!
My hubby has that t-shirt!

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 02:06 PM
In what way is that fitting?

Maybe its not our part to make it fitting.Dont you think unless that person truely repented Gods punishment will be much more harsh?

Jabez
April 24th, 2005, 02:06 PM
BTW, Jabez...cool avatar!
My hubby has that t-shirt!


Thanks,ive been looking to get that t-shirt..:)

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Eye for an eye, but there is a better way now we call him JESUS
And Jesus says that God put our governments in authority over us and we are to obey them as we do God.
Not everyone follows Jesus.
There was a pastor named Paul Hill who murdered an abortion doctor and a bodyguard, he was given the death penalty and executed. Even in the end, he was not sorry for what he had done. Shouldn't he have known better than to commit murder?

Agape4Robin
April 24th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Maybe its not our part to make it fitting.Dont you think unless that person truely repented Gods punishment will be much more harsh?
But what about the victims?
What about the life of fear that they must live with?
In light of over-crowding, should one of the murderers, rapists or child molesters get out, what about protecting the society at large?
Can't you agree that these should not be a part of society again?

Freak
April 24th, 2005, 02:15 PM
What I meant is that doesn't give specifics on what the punishment should be. Without considering God's justice system, goverments are free to use any punishment they wish, whether it is just or not. The New Covenant calls all of mankind to be just. So, the governments of the world need to be just in doling out punishment.


Perhaps the soldiers as individuals didn't carry the sword for executing, but I'm pretty sure the Roman goverment as a whole did have the death penalty. Yet, they didn't necessarily use it in a just manner in every case.
As I mentioned before, the term “sword” refers to police powers or to those who enforce taxation; it could be a designation for the civil guards or a symbol of judicial authority.The authorization of the death penalty today rests upon a biblical word whose meaning is in dispute among believers world-wide. The first thing to notice, Sibbie, here is that the death penalty is not explicitly mentioned in the 13th chapter.


So they didn't necessarily execute people with swords (in certain cases they may have, though), but they used crucifixion (in which the sword was also used to verify death.) Then why didn't Jesus Christ call for the the Samaritan Woman, in John 4, whom was guilty of adultery, to face the authorities? Jesus restored her and did not call for her to report to the governing authorities to be put to death. Do you know why?


Yes and the punishment for stealing is clearly laid out in Exodus.
Since this is included in the laws of the Old Covenant, do you think this type of punishment is obsolete for our dispensation today? It appears you haven't read carefully any of my posts. I stated quite clearly that the New Covenant clearly calls the moral sins of the Old, sins in the New. For example: you brought up stealing. Stealing is considered a sin in the New Covenant.

He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

Anger, for example, was considered a sin in the Old and the New.

“In your anger do not sin”: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, and do not give the devil a foothold.

The punishment is dfferent however under the New Covenant. For example-we do not ask for those who break the sabbath to submit to a death penalty.


Are you talking about the Samaritan woman who was a fornicator or the adulteress in John 8? No, re-read my first post. :dizzy:


So why do you advocate that murderers be thrown in prison when Paul wasn't imprisioned? I advocate a biblical approach--"He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." I believe punishment should be in order for those whom are "wrongdoers."


Are you asking:
Were they unjust for not executing those criminals?
Were they unjust for not turning the criminals over to the goverment?
Were they unjust for not petitioning to the government to make a law declaring the death penalty for capital crimes? You believe the Old Covenant's laws, in regards, to the death penalty, is valid for today. Then why didn't the apostle Paul, tell the "sexually immoral," "idolaters," "adulterers," "male prostitutes," and "homosexual offenders"--all of which were capital offences in the Old Testament, to petition the government to make a law declaring the death penalty for capital crimes or least be righteous and to be willing to submit to the death penalty. Does fidelity to the truth mean anything to you?