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Knight
April 11th, 2005, 05:38 PM
When I was little.... my dad crafted this really wicked paddle. It was about the size of a ping-pong paddle and it had a black handle with a glossy green paint job. My dad had drilled holes in the paddle so that it would swing through the air faster. And when he would swing it through the air it would make a "swooshing" sound.

And my dad would say.....
"Ya hear that? This paddle sings a song of pain and death".

And then he would smilie.

The funny part of all of this is.... if you all knew my dad you would really appreciate this story even more. My dad is the most sweet loving parent anyone could ever imagine. He loved me so much that he would attempt to scare the hell out of me!!! :shocked: I am so thankful that my father did what was best for me even if it was hard for him.

Recently.... me and my pop found the old paddle and we both got a good chuckle. Then I took the paddle and placed it upstairs and showed it to my kids. My kids think its really awesome! Except of course when it sings. :)

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 05:42 PM
When I was little.... my dad crafted this really wicked paddle. It was about the size of a ping-pong paddle and it had a black handle with a glossy green paint job. My dad had drilled holes in the paddle so that it would swing through the air faster. And when he would swing it through the air it would make a "swooshing" sound.

And my dad would say.....
"Ya hear that? This paddle sings a song of pain and death".

And then he would smilie.

The funny part of all of this is.... if you all knew my dad you would really appreciate this story even more. My dad is the most sweet loving parent anyone could ever imagine. He loved me so much that he would attempt to scare the hell out of me!!! :shocked: I am so thankful that my father did what was best for me even if it was hard for him.

Recently.... me and my pop found the old paddle and we both got a good chuckle. Then I took the paddle and placed it upstairs and showed it to my kids. My kids think its really awesome! Except of course when it sings. :)

Congratulations on having such a loving father! :thumb: Wait, weren't you traumatized by the "beatings" and didn't you bleed a lot? ;)

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 05:43 PM
Congratulations on having such a loving father! :thumb: Wait, weren't you traumatized by the "beatings" and didn't you bleed a lot? ;)An earthly father? What's that?

Lucky, can I get an amen?

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 05:56 PM
If a red "welt" is classified as "bleeding" (as it was in the Enyart case) then my dad did indeed cause me to bleed. :rolleyes:

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 05:59 PM
If a red "welt" is classified as "bleeding" (as it was in the Enyart case) then my dad did indeed cause me to bleed. :rolleyes:

Where did the bleeding allegation originate I wonder? :think:

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 06:03 PM
Where did the bleeding allegation originate I wonder? :think:The prosecution attempted to make the argument that if a red welt is examined close enough (microscopically) the redness of the welt is caused from broken blood vessels i.e., bleeding.

The press ran with this asinine logic and the rest is.... as they say.... history. :)

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 06:09 PM
The prosecution attempted to make the argument that if a red welt is examined close enough (microscopically) the redness of the welt is caused from broken blood vessels i.e., bleeding.

The press ran with this asinine logic and the rest is.... as they say.... history. :)

IDIOTS!

Lucky
April 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM
An earthly father? What's that?
Beats me. (NPI) I can't remember if my dad ever spanked me, as I don't have much memories at all with him, but he probably did. But both my mom and step-father used to belt me when I deserved it, and for that I am grateful. Too bad they switched to the 'grounding' method with my brother. That didn't work out too well, did it? :freak:

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 06:33 PM
That didn't work out too well, did it? :freak:I'll second that motion.

BillyBob
April 11th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Believe it or not, I was a pretty good kid, but I had my moments and my Dad had no problem giving me an 'Attitude Adjustment' with a belt when it was needed. It was a rare occurrence and only when he felt it was necessary. I have no problem with it at all.

I remember the day we both realized I was too old for corporal punishment. He reached for the Razor strap, made me grab the edge of the pool table, let it fly a few times and I just sneered over my shoulder at him. He then proceeded to ground me from that day on.

Looking back, I should have pretended that it hurt worse than it did when he beat me, taken the pain and I never would have been grounded. [The entire month of May, once!] :doh:

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 07:54 PM
The prosecution attempted to make the argument that if a red welt is examined close enough (microscopically) the redness of the welt is caused from broken blood vessels i.e., bleeding.

The press ran with this asinine logic and the rest is.... as they say.... history. :)

Now that's just nutty. :nono:

Spankings = good! :thumb:

cattyfan
April 11th, 2005, 10:42 PM
I'm all for a deserved-well placed swat...

but my mom used to use lilac bush switches and hair brushes, and she didn't always know when to stop.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 11:28 PM
The "Belt" works wonders! :bannana:

Lighthouse
April 11th, 2005, 11:38 PM
I'm not fond of belt usage. But I know paddlings were what I needed. Of course, I didn't reallly need them that often. I was talking to may dad, tonight, and he said that he remembers that all I really needed was an explanation of why what I did was wrong, and I never did it again. I was a strange child.

Gerald
April 12th, 2005, 08:25 AM
When I was little.... my dad crafted this really wicked paddle.

<snip>

Recently.... me and my pop found the old paddle and we both got a good chuckle.Did he give you a few whacks? You know, for old times' sake... ;)

Gerald
April 12th, 2005, 08:29 AM
Wait, weren't you traumatized by the "beatings" and didn't you bleed a lot? ;)Nope, that was me. Bruises, cuts, broken bones, you-name-it...

Granite
April 12th, 2005, 08:30 AM
My mother used a wooden-handled hair brush. That thing KILLED.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 08:31 AM
The spoon with the hole in the middle...I think I'm starting to twitch...

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 08:57 AM
All this righteous bravado aside, has it occurred to anyone that most kids who have been abused grow up to become abusers, and that the same excuses their abusers used, will become their own excuses later on?

When I was a kid, my best friend was my neighbor John. John's dad had a terrible temper and would often beat John, his sister, and even their mother on occasion. They were not particularly religious, but the level of violence in their home was not much different that what many Christians think is reasonable and acceptable. Yet to this day I still remember having a conversation with John, once, when we were about 10 or 11 years old. I had noticed that John was wincing and asked him why, and he told me his dad had beat him and had raised painful welts. He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).

John was really a good-natured kid when we were young. We laughed and joked around all the time. But when he grew up, he grew up to be just like his dad. He became a humorless, angry, man. And when he got married and had kids, he became known as a "very strict" father. I have no doubt in my mind that John has beat his own kids just as he was beaten as a kid. And if I were to ask him why he's doing this even though it caused him so much pain as a child, I doubt that he would understand his own emotions today any more than he understood them when he was 10 years old.

I'm not the least bit impressed by anyone here's bragging about their use of violence in disciplining their kids. And the fact that your parents did it to you doesn't impress me, either. I just keep thinking about what a great kid my friend John was, and what a humorless, violent jerk he became as an adult, just like his own father was. And yeah, I know .... you're different.

Granite
April 12th, 2005, 09:18 AM
PureX, I'm sorry, but not every parent who swats is an abuser.

In fact...I have a big family. Oldest of seven. And really, the only ones who got spanked with any regularity were the first three of us (all boys). After that, my parents just mellowed, man. I mean, I see my younger siblings getting away with murder, stuff that would have at least gotten me a swat. My folks just got more philosophical in their "old" age. If I ever got spanked, I knew I had it coming. This isn't justification, it's just very true.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 09:43 AM
PureX you are an idiot.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 09:57 AM
PureX you are an idiot.
While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that.

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 11:01 AM
While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that."Stupid is as stupid does." We can't think with our emotions, we can only react.

BillyBob
April 12th, 2005, 05:12 PM
All this righteous bravado aside, has it occurred to anyone that most kids who have been abused grow up to become abusers, and that the same excuses their abusers used, will become their own excuses later on?

The people responding to this thread are in favor of corporal punishment, not abuse.




When I was a kid, my best friend was my neighbor John. John's dad had a terrible temper and would often beat John, his sister, and even their mother on occasion.

What does any of this have to do with an occassional spanking?


They were not particularly religious, but the level of violence in their home was not much different that what many Christians think is reasonable and acceptable.

According to who? Define that level.


Yet to this day I still remember having a conversation with John, once, when we were about 10 or 11 years old. I had noticed that John was wincing and asked him why, and he told me his dad had beat him and had raised painful welts. He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).

John was really a good-natured kid when we were young. We laughed and joked around all the time. But when he grew up, he grew up to be just like his dad. He became a humorless, angry, man. And when he got married and had kids, he became known as a "very strict" father. I have no doubt in my mind that John has beat his own kids just as he was beaten as a kid. And if I were to ask him why he's doing this even though it caused him so much pain as a child, I doubt that he would understand his own emotions today any more than he understood them when he was 10 years old.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?




I'm not the least bit impressed by anyone here's bragging about their use of violence in disciplining their kids.

Corporal punishment is equivilent to 'child abuse'? :confused:


And the fact that your parents did it to you doesn't impress me, either. I just keep thinking about what a great kid my friend John was, and what a humorless, violent jerk he became as an adult, just like his own father was. And yeah, I know .... you're different.


Humorless, violent jerk?

I don't know about you, but I have a great sense of humor and even though I have had the belt taken to my asss a few times as a kid, I have never had the occassion to do so to my kids. Not that I'm against it, the need just hasn't presented itself [yet]. I am not violent [but I'm not afraid to fight for what I believe in] and I'm only a jerk sometimes.

So I ask again, what does your story have to do with the topic at hand?

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 09:31 PM
The people responding to this thread are in favor of corporal punishment, not abuse.But then an abuser would say that exact same thing, wouldn't he/she? And in fact, an adult who abuses his/her child would BELIEVE that exact same thing, too. I'm sure if I asked my old friend John if he was a child abuser, he'd say no, that he's just a very strict father, who believes in "corporal punishment" just like his father had been.

That's why I posted what I did. I saw people almost bragging about how violence was used on them as kids, and how they were proud to do the same to their own. I didn't accuse anyone here of anything. I simply pointed out that child abusers look and sound just like this. And I reminded everyone that child abuse destroys people.

My friend John grew up to be an angry abusive man. His sister grew up to marry the meanest prick in my whole high school, and I have since heard that the police have been called a number of times to their home because of violence. I don't know if she has children or not, but if so, imagine what they're growing up with. And guess what ... they will very likely grow up to behave the same way as their parents are behaving toward them. So generation after generation the violence gets handed down. And lives are ruined. People are hurt and when alcoholism gets thrown into that violent mix, people even get killed.

The reason I reminded everyone of this is because NO parent should EVER be bragging about using violence against their kids. There may be rare occasions when only physical force will make a parent's command real to a child. But it sure as hell shouldn't be something any parent is proud of. Nor should it ever be something they like doing, or worse yet, something they consider a family tradition. If anything, their goal ought to be to raise their kids in such a way that they will never actually have to back up their commands with violence. Believe it or not, there are millions of parents out there who have never used violence against their children, and who have raised excellent kids to become excellent adults. When parents know what they're doing, they don't need violence, or humiliation, or screaming to get their kids to behave.

Now. What kind of an idiot would call me an idiot and dock me 75 weenie points for pointing this out? You tell me.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 09:37 PM
"Stupid is as stupid does." We can't think with our emotions, we can only react.:confused:

SOTK
April 12th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Purex,

You can have some great posts sometimes and some intersting ideas. This post wasn't one of them. Spanking is not violent. It can be violent, sure, but so can yelling, grounding, and other forms of parental discipline gone wrong.

No one is "bragging" here. I think it's rather healthy to look back on what I learned from my spankings. They taught me valuable lessons. I'm grateful for what my parents taught me. Gratitude and respect is being shown here. Come on, Purex! :doh:

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 09:53 PM
I think it's rather healthy to look back on what I learned from my spankings. They taught me valuable lessons. I'm grateful for what my parents taught me. Gratitude and respect is being shown here. Come on, Purex!You still don't get the point. People who DO abuse their children SAY AND BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS. And so do the kids that they abused! I bet if I asked John if he was an abused child he'd say that he was not, and that he's "grateful" for all those beatings because they "made him tough".

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 09:56 PM
:confused:That wasn't about you, sorry.

Imrahil
April 12th, 2005, 09:59 PM
You still don't get the point. People who DO abuse their children SAY AND BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS. And so do the kids that they abused! I bet if I asked John if he was an abused child he'd say that he was not, and that he's "grateful" for all those beatings because they "made him tough".
Your line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable. You claim it is abuse and if the parents object, "Well, they would wouldn't they?" If the kids deny it, "Well that's what abused kids do isn't it?"

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 10:14 PM
Your line of argument seems to be unfalsifiable. You claim it is abuse and if the parents object, "Well, they would wouldn't they?" If the kids deny it, "Well that's what abused kids do isn't it?"That's why this abuse continues generation after generation. The only way to break the chain is for someone who has been abused to ADMIT to themselves that they have been abused, and to do what they have to do to ensure that they don't pass that violence on to another generation. Just as I've known John, I've also known a number of people who did find the courage to admit that they had been abused by the very people who claimed to love them most. It was not an easy thing for them to face, especially when their parents are still alive and swear that they're lying (well of course they do), and even their siblings swear it, too.

Abusers don't believe they're abusers. Victims often deny that they were victims. Yet the violence is real, and people's lives are ruined just the same. This isn't pleasant to think about, but it's the truth. And if YOU were one of the people lost in this cycle of abuse, you would be touting the virtues of "corporal punishment" as if it were the only sure and inevitable means of correcting a child, too. Because that's exactly what abusers believe. And I WANT you and everyone else here to think about that.

Lighthouse
April 12th, 2005, 10:15 PM
All this righteous bravado aside, has it occurred to anyone that most kids who have been abused grow up to become abusers, and that the same excuses their abusers used, will become their own excuses later on?

When I was a kid, my best friend was my neighbor John. John's dad had a terrible temper and would often beat John, his sister, and even their mother on occasion. They were not particularly religious, but the level of violence in their home was not much different that what many Christians think is reasonable and acceptable. Yet to this day I still remember having a conversation with John, once, when we were about 10 or 11 years old. I had noticed that John was wincing and asked him why, and he told me his dad had beat him and had raised painful welts. He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).

John was really a good-natured kid when we were young. We laughed and joked around all the time. But when he grew up, he grew up to be just like his dad. He became a humorless, angry, man. And when he got married and had kids, he became known as a "very strict" father. I have no doubt in my mind that John has beat his own kids just as he was beaten as a kid. And if I were to ask him why he's doing this even though it caused him so much pain as a child, I doubt that he would understand his own emotions today any more than he understood them when he was 10 years old.

I'm not the least bit impressed by anyone here's bragging about their use of violence in disciplining their kids. And the fact that your parents did it to you doesn't impress me, either. I just keep thinking about what a great kid my friend John was, and what a humorless, violent jerk he became as an adult, just like his own father was. And yeah, I know .... you're different.
My father was abused as a child. He never abused me. Not once. But he did spank.:think:

Lighthouse
April 12th, 2005, 10:17 PM
You know, I've tried to understand PoisoN's pov, but I just can't get my had that far up my anal cavity.:nono:

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 10:23 PM
My father was abused as a child. He never abused me. Not once. But he did spank.:think:Then I applaud him for his restraint. It must have sometimes been hard for him not to do to you what was done to him. I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but most victims of abuse grow up with a hatred of themselves as victims that they subconscuoisly project onto their own kids, and then express in the same way as they were treated.

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 10:27 PM
You know, I've tried to understand PoisoN's pov, but I just can't get my had that far up my anal cavity.:nono:You need about 25 more years of life experience, and a whole lot more smarts than you appear to have, now.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 11:03 PM
While I don't completely agree with PureX, surely you could have used more brain cells than that.
Why?

I call it like I see it.

Husband&Father
April 12th, 2005, 11:05 PM
Lots of parents who are soft on their kids claim to love them, and Iím sure they do in some very real ways. However the Bible teaches that if you donít discipline your children you donít love them. How can this be true? We all know well intentioned liberals who refuse to spank, who refuse to exercise dominance, who try to reason with misbehaving toddlers and sincerely believe in the power of the time-out. Would we go so far as-to accuse them of not loving their children? I doubt we would, we tend to try and be nicer than God. God, on the other hand, says it straight up; if you donít discipline Ďem you donít love Ďem.

Parents who donít spank are selfish. They donít spank because they wish to maintain a superiority over parents who spank. Make no mistake about itís about them. They believe that if they resort to spanking it reflects badly on them, they are less sophisticated, less intelligent and less in-control if they swat their brat.

They will say that they refrain from corporal punishment because it is harmful to the children. They have no evidence of it but they will say it.

Appropriate discipline when deserved is not abuse, appropriate and deserved being the operative words. If the discipline is consistently inappropriate (too harsh) or undeserved damage can be done to the little psyche if abuse continues over an extended period of time. (he may lose his faith in justice or become embittered)

But discipline, even corporal, that is not abuse is helpful not harmful.
If you believe in God ask yourself why he invented pain. If you donít believe ask your self why nature installed pain sensors to make bad things hurt in all higher animals.
The answer God (or nature if you prefer) knows pain can teach instantaneously and unforgettably. Like a single prick of a rose thorn teaches us to respect the rose bush forever, a single swat on the fanny can teach a child to respect what needs to be respected.

Lighthouse
April 13th, 2005, 02:05 AM
Then I applaud him for his restraint. It must have sometimes been hard for him not to do to you what was done to him. I know that sounds like an odd thing to say, but most victims of abuse grow up with a hatred of themselves as victims that they subconscuoisly project onto their own kids, and then express in the same way as they were treated.
He knew it was abuse when it was happening. And he promised himself never to do that to any of his children. He barely ever spanked me. I barely ever needed it. But there was one time that he didn't allow time for an explanation before bending me over his knee. And after he found out that I hadn't doen what he thought I did, it tore him up inside. I still don't think he's forgiven himself for that. He apologizes profusely every time the subject is broached. So I quit talking about it.

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 05:36 AM
When parents know what they're doing, they don't need violence, or humiliation, or screaming to get their kids to behave.

Do you have any children?



Now. What kind of an idiot would call me an idiot and dock me 75 weenie points for pointing this out? You tell me.

What kind of idiot would call the Administrator of a forum an idiot? :eek:

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 05:52 AM
Parents who donít spank are selfish. They donít spank because they wish to maintain a superiority over parents who spank. Make no mistake about itís about them. They believe that if they resort to spanking it reflects badly on them, they are less sophisticated, less intelligent and less in-control if they swat their brat.That's just plain foolish. The vast majority of parents who spank their kids are not child abusers. And the vast majority of parents who do not spank their kids are not practicing child neglect, either. It's not necessary to use physical violence to raise a child, nor does the lack of physical violence constitute neglect. Millions of parents raise millions of healthy, well-behaved children without using physical violence. And millions of parents raise millions of healthy, well-behaved kids using a minimum of physical violence. You're trying to justify one extreme against another. If I were you, I'd be asking myself why I'm doing that, because it's very creepy .

Appropriate discipline when deserved is not abuse, appropriate and deserved being the operative words. If the discipline is consistently inappropriate (too harsh) or undeserved damage can be done to the little psyche if abuse continues over an extended period of time. (he may lose his faith in justice or become embittered)I agree.

But discipline, even corporal, that is not abuse is helpful not harmful.
If you believe in God ask yourself why he invented pain. If you donít believe ask your self why nature installed pain sensors to make bad things hurt in all higher animals.
The answer God (or nature if you prefer) knows pain can teach instantaneously and unforgettably. Like a single prick of a rose thorn teaches us to respect the rose bush forever, a single swat on the fanny can teach a child to respect what needs to be respected.This is all true, but I was writing about abuse that disguises itself as justifiable punishment. Because that's how abusers justify their abuse - as justifiable punishment. And guess what - lots of "good Christians" are child abusers. Lot's of child abusers are using God and the bible to justify their child abuse just as lots of Christian bigots are using God and the bible to justify their hatred of queers, atheists, liberal democrats, intellectuals, and God only know who else.

Christians seem to think that because they're Christians they are suddenly immune to their own sins. And it's this imaginary immunity that the bigot and abuser will hide his sins and his crimes behind. Just as a pedophile might find the priesthood a good place to hide while he practices his sickness, a child abuser would find religious fundamentalism a good place to hide his own desire to abuse children. That doesn't mean all fundamentalists are child abusers any more than it means all priests are pedophiles, but the fact is that these are good places for people which have these sicknesses to hide while they practice them.

And I think all you religious fundamentalists should think about that.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 05:59 AM
He knew it was abuse when it was happening. And he promised himself never to do that to any of his children. He barely ever spanked me. I barely ever needed it. But there was one time that he didn't allow time for an explanation before bending me over his knee. And after he found out that I hadn't doen what he thought I did, it tore him up inside. I still don't think he's forgiven himself for that. He apologizes profusely every time the subject is broached. So I quit talking about it.My own dad similarly had to work hard at breaking the chain of abuse that he suffered under as a child. And I am extremely proud of him for that.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 06:04 AM
What kind of idiot would call the Administrator of a forum an idiot?What kind of administrator would be calling people on his own forum an "idiot"? Is it OK to be a jerk just because you're an administrator?

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 06:32 AM
This is all true, but I was writing about abuse that disguises itself as justifiable punishment.

And basically implying that we are all child abusers in denial.

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 06:36 AM
What kind of administrator would be calling people on his own forum an "idiot"? Is it OK to be a jerk just because you're an administrator?

It comes with the terrirtory. I've seen Knight tussle with a lot of posters here and take some pretty harsh criticism himself, it goes both ways. It just stings a little more now that there are Rep Points at stake and he wields 75 of them every time he hits the button. :chuckle:

Mr. 5020
April 13th, 2005, 06:38 AM
Why?

I call it like I see it.I understand. I apologize if I offended you.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 07:29 AM
And basically implying that we are all child abusers in denial.I was not implying that at all. And I don't believe that at all. But the fact is, that if I were wanting to beat children, the best place for me to hide this desire from myself and from others is behind some religious fundamentalist dogma that justifies beating children. And there are people who abuse children, doing that. I was not accusing anyone here of being one of those people, but I am pointing out that they are among you, and you should be aware that it's your attitude about using violence against children that allows them to hide and to justify what they're doing.

Mr. 5020
April 13th, 2005, 07:30 AM
I was not implying that at all. And I don't believe that at all. But the fact is, that if I were wanting to beat children, the best place for me to hide this desire from myself and from others is behind some religious fundamentalist dogma that justifies beating children. And there are people who abuse children, doing that. I was not accusing anyone here of being one of those people, but I am pointing out that they are among you, and you should be aware that it's your attitude about using violence against children that allows them to hide and to justify what they're doing.The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.

Christine
April 13th, 2005, 07:36 AM
The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.
:down: Only the media believes the vast majority of homeschoolers have something to hide. In reality, nearly all homeschooling parents love and care about their children and would not dream of abusing them.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 07:45 AM
The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.That's also true, though I'm not against home-schooling any more than I'm against spanking children as a form of discipline. But we do need to be aware that these are places where child abuse hides.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 07:47 AM
:down: Only the media believes the vast majority of homeschoolers have something to hide. In reality, nearly all homeschooling parents love and care about their children and would not dream of abusing them.That's true, but please keep in mind that the parents who do abuse their children also believe that they love them and are not abusing them, even though they are.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 08:06 AM
That's also true, though I'm not against home-schooling any more than I'm against spanking children as a form of discipline. But we do need to be aware that these are places where child abuse hides.
Yes. This can be true.

But for the most part, homeschooling is a good thing.

Christine
April 13th, 2005, 11:37 AM
That's true, but please keep in mind that the parents who do abuse their children also believe that they love them and are not abusing them, even though they are.
Most parents who neglect and/or abuse their children don't care enough about them to homeschool them.

Crow
April 13th, 2005, 01:28 PM
Purex,

Any form of punishment is abusive if it is done to an abusive degree. There will be people who abuse grounding, people who abuse withheld privledges, and people who abuse corporal punishment. I knew a kid who was grounded for a month for being home 5 minutes after his curfew on a weekend. To me, that is abusive.

I have experience with abuse. My parents both used corporal punishment. My mother was abusive, my father was not.

I can count on the fingers of my hands the times my father spanked me. Each time, it was for doing (or not doing) something after he made his rules and instructions and expectations crystal clear. And with the punishment, both before and after, came the lecture. It worked. My father had 2 hard-headed kids, my one brother and myself, and we required this. The other 2 might have been spanked 2 or 3 times. All he had to do was look at them and they would stop whatever misbehavior they were doing. And every one of his punishments was not corporal--he made the punishment fit the crime.

My mother, on the other hand, beat kids because she had a bad day. Or because she was angry with someone. Or when we did something that warranted punishment, she went over the top. She hit my sister in the head with an iron because she hadn't done the dishes as quickly as my mother wanted. She threw knives at my brother and I because we walked through the house with muddy shoes. My dad's reaction to that would have been get out the mop and broom and clean not only where you tracked but the rest of that room as well. I remember her throwing a 50# sack of dogfood on my sister for being on the phone too long. My sister was about 90# at the time. She also pushed me toward a fire when we were burning brush--the fire was low enough that I jumped over it. I could have just as easily fallen into it. My mother was also a hair puller, and don't let her get ahold of your hands--I have had fingers broken and dislocated for not being quick enough.

Let me take the case of the original kid who was grounded for getting home 5 minutes late. If I had done that, my father would have told me to be more careful the next time. 5 minutes--it's obvious that the kid was trying to get home on time--it's not a couple of hours. There would have been no punishment for that unless I kept getting a little later each time, seeing how far I could push it. For that, I would have spent a couple of nights grounded.

And for my father, corporal punishment was a punishment for a certain age. By the time we got 10 or so, it wasn't used. I think my brother was 12 the last time my father used it--he got the belt for throwing rotten squashes at a neighbor's passing truck and causing the guy to run off the road. Thankfully the man was not hurt nor his truck harmed, but my brother had to wash, wax, and buff the entire truck and personally apologize to the guy, and he got the lecture in addition as well. And he had to spend a day helping that neighbor dig postholes without pay.

The incident was not repeated.

These are the things that I consider to be abusive punishment.

1) When punishment is unwarranted.

2) When the person punished did not know that what they did or did not do was wrong.

3) When the form of punishment is excessive for the infraction.

4) When punishment is not followed up by addressing the issue of the infraction.

5) Broken bones, burns, sprains, cuts. (I don't include welts as excessive)

6) When the amount of punishment is excessive. 5 or 6 swats is not excessive. 40 is over the top. Grounding a kid for a month for being 5 minutes late is downright draconian.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 01:46 PM
Crow,

Those are all very reasonable comments, and I'm sorry that you had to suffer the abuse of your mother. The only part I might disagree with would be the welts. I don't think most kids would need to be hit that hard or that many times to get the message. I also don't believe that hitting kids is a necessity. I think if parents start early with clear and consistant non-violent punishments, they won't have to use violence at all. Millions of parents have succesfully raised their children without ever hitting them. And I think they do it in a similar way as your dad. But they have to start early and they have to be clear and consistant.

the Sibbie
April 13th, 2005, 01:59 PM
The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.I'm starting to think you have this huge chip on your shoulder. :think:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 02:21 PM
When I was a bit younger, I was married to a woman who had a 17 year old son who, with his buddies, broke into a vacation home and trashed it. They broke furniture, kicked in walls and generally busted everything they could. Thinking they could get away with it because the house was out in the country, they really went nuts.

When the time came to leave, the kid found that his car [a car in our name] was hopelessly stuck in the mud. He was screwed and he knew it. The cops had me come to the house and look at the extensive damage as well as get a tow truck to unstick the car. I couldn't believe how thorough these vandals were, they trashed EVERYTHING! I probably should have taken that kid out in the back yard and beat the crap out of him, I would have been justified, I'm sure. But I didn't........

The cop I was dealing with was pretty calm about the whole thing and obviously started his investigation with my stepson. I told my kid that I expected him to give trhe cop all the names of his cohorts and cooperate fully. I sat with him as the Cop questioned him, assuring the kids full co operating. That kid was SCARED and the cop played into it beautifully. We had the kid thinking he was going to jail as soon as the meeting was over with.

Anyway, the kid spilled the beans on his friends and they actually, through cross questioning figured out pretty much which kid broke which items and put a price tag each kids recompence. The kid had a job and every penny he earned was paid to the owners of that house until he was square with them. He was grounded, lost driving priviledges and only narrowly escaped having my full wrath fall upon him in the back yard.

Looking back, I'm glad I didn't beat the crap out of him. He learned a far greater lesson by fessing up to his crimes and making full restitution. He went on to join the Navy and turned out to be a good kid.

I reckon some day he'll be escorting his own teenage son to the Police Station.


"World goes round in a circle....." :singer:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 02:34 PM
One more 'Belt' story.

My folks were divorced when I was young and I lived with my Mom who, because of the circumstance was the only disciplinarian. When I was about 7 or 8, I did something which made her take a belt to me. Now, up until this point, the only belt woopins I had ever received were from my Dad, Mom was a novice to say the least.

So she grabs the belt, doubles it in the fashion she had seen and commenced with my assswoopin. Within the first strike or two she lost her grip on the belt, the buckle end extending away from her as she swung. That buckle end of the belt wrapped around my waist squarely depositing that high speed buckle into my 'frontal region'. :shocked: I fell on the floor grabbing my 'boys' and screamed my head off as my horrified Mother threw down the belt and dropped to her knees realizing what happened. She was, of course, very sorry about this 'punishment gone really wrong' and she held me as my crying slowed and finally subsided.

My Mother never again used a belt as an instrument of punishment......



It's funny, the things we remember.

Crow
April 13th, 2005, 02:35 PM
Crow,

Those are all very reasonable comments, and I'm sorry that you had to suffer the abuse of your mother. The only part I might disagree with would be the welts. I don't think most kids would need to be hit that hard or that many times to get the message. I also don't believe that hitting kids is a necessity. I think if parents start early with clear and consistant non-violent punishments, they won't have to use violence at all. Millions of parents have succesfully raised their children without ever hitting them. And I think they do it in a similar way as your dad. But they have to start early and they have to be clear and consistant.

Purex, I'll agree with you to the point that I don't think hitting all kids is necessary. There are some that respond well without corporal punishment. But not a couple of the kids in my family.

The "sit on the chair and don't move"--an early form of "time-out" didn't work. We made a game out of it. Other kids would make faces at the kid on the chair--the kid on the chair made them back. And seeing how far you could rock the chair to walk it across the floor. And various and sundry other stunts--balancing on the chair in weird poses. On and on.

Go to your room? Cool! All my stuff is in there! I have entertainment!

My one brother and I were pretty tough kids to deal with.

There came a point that sometimes force was necessary. My father did not abuse it. Often just knowing that he was willing to act was a deterrent. He usually could stop misbehavior in the progress by using a certain tone in his voice. But we tended to push it, and we reaped the consequences.

Delmar
April 13th, 2005, 02:48 PM
One more 'Belt' story.

My folks were divorced when I was young and I lived with my Mom who, because of the circumstance was the only disciplinarian. When I was about 7 or 8, I did something which made her take a belt to me. Now, up until this point, the only belt woopins I had ever received were from my Dad, Mom was a novice to say the least.

So she grabs the belt, doubles it in the fashion she had seen and commenced with my assswoopin. Within the first strike or two she lost her grib on the belt, the buckle end extending away from her as she swung. That buckle end of the belt wrapped around my waist squarely depositing that high speed buckle into my 'frontal region'. :shocked: I fell on the floor grabbing my 'boys' and screamed my head off as my horrified Mother threw down the belt and dropped to her knees realizing what happened. She was, of course, very sorry about this 'punishment gone really wrong' and she held me as my crying slowed and finally subsided.

My Mother never again used a belt as an instrument of punishment......



It's funny, the things we remember.
Great story! but I still can't give you more points :(

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 02:50 PM
That's OK. Glad you liked the story. :)

Crow
April 13th, 2005, 02:54 PM
That's true, but please keep in mind that the parents who do abuse their children also believe that they love them and are not abusing them, even though they are.

Sometimes. But I suspect that is the minority of the time. Most abusers are well aware that what they do is wrong, and do it in a matter that lessens their chance of being caught. Some are mental cases. Some are sadistic. Some have screwed up their own lives, and take out their frustrations on kids. Some misplace their anger for their spouse onto their kids. Some are drug or alcohol addicts. Some are just miserable vicious jerks.

The majority of parents discipline their kids without ever abusing them, whatever method they use. The sick SOBs will abuse whatever method or methods they choose.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 03:14 PM
... There came a point that sometimes force was necessary. My father did not abuse it. Often just knowing that he was willing to act was a deterrent. He usually could stop misbehavior in the progress by using a certain tone in his voice. But we tended to push it, and we reaped the consequences.My dad had a way of rapping us on the head with his knuckle that would really get our attention. That usually put a quick stop our screwing around. The funny thing was he had a way of doing it without our ever seeing it coming, so even though it didn't heart that much, it always scaired the crap out of us. My folks did use paddling when we were little (under 6 years old), only a couple of times that I can recall. But the punishment I remember best was when I stole some old coins from my friend's dad's coin collection and had to take them back, and apologize to him in front of his entire family (they were all sitting at the table eating dinner at the time). That made the point about stealing far better than any beating ever could have done.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 03:22 PM
Sometimes the best punishment is to actually publically "undo" what you did. I stole money from my dad's coin jar, and then I had to estimate how much I had taken and then go to the bank with him, withdraw it from my savings account and give it to him.

Yorzhik
April 13th, 2005, 03:23 PM
He told me how much he hated his father for beiing so violent. And then he astonished me by saying that he couldn't wait until he had kids, so he could beat the sh__ out of them the way his dad does him. I was shocked! And I asked John why he'd want to do that to his own kids when he hated it so much that his dad did it to him.

But John had no answer. He didn't really understand his own emotions. He just kept saying that he was going to beat the sh__ out of them (his own kids).
A) This child never said what you say he said. I know I cannot prove it, so we'll have to wait for judgement day, but I hope to check on this to see if I was right.
B) Even though he never said what you are claiming, it still would have no bearing on how he would treat his children years later.
C) Even though this boy's parent didn't believe in good spanking (at best, not knowing the boy's parent's intentions), the child turned out to be a great blessing to his own children if 'he became known as a "very strict" father'. Or did you mean that the boy grew up to actually abuse his children?


And the vast majority of parents who do not spank their kids are not practicing child neglect, either. It's not necessary to use physical violence to raise a child, nor does the lack of physical violence constitute neglect.
But the vast majority of child abuse comes from parents that don't believe in spanking. Their kids become such monsters from constantly being improperly raised that the parent's frustration finally reaches a point that they explode.

Delmar
April 13th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Sometimes the best punishment is to actually publically "undo" what you did. I stole money from my dad's coin jar, and then I had to estimate how much I had taken and then go to the bank with him, withdraw it from my savings account and give it to him. Restitution for stealing is certainly a Biblical principal.
:up:

Gerald
April 13th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Some are just miserable vicious jerks.I'll have you know I'm a happy and well-adjusted, er...

:noid:

;)

:chuckle:

Yorzhik
April 13th, 2005, 03:46 PM
Abuse is criminal.


1) When punishment is unwarranted.
That isn't abuse (in the context of this thread). It's just a mistake (assuming it is a normal spanking).


2) When the person punished did not know that what they did or did not do was wrong.
ditto


When the form of punishment is excessive for the infraction.
ditto


When punishment is not followed up by addressing the issue of the infraction.
ditto


When the amount of punishment is excessive. 5 or 6 swats is not excessive. 40 is over the top.
ditto


Grounding a kid for a month for being 5 minutes late is downright draconian.
Yes, draconian, but not abuse.


Broken bones, burns, sprains,
Ahhh... there's abuse. This


cuts
Actually, cuts may or may not be abuse. Occasionally a cut can result inadvertently from legitimate punishment. Of course, using knives for punishment wouldn't be legitimate.

Yorzhik
April 13th, 2005, 03:52 PM
The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.
No. That were true then we'd find a number of abused children had been homeschooled. This isn't what we find. What we find is most abused kids are in public or private school. In fact, a good way to get rid of a lot of abuse would be to get rid of public school. I'd go into the reasons for this but we've talked about it before and you have an inability to reason on this subject.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 04:23 PM
The second best place to hide it is homeschooling.What a complete asinine thing to assert.

These are sort of brainless comments that deserved to be challenged.

Please provide evidence that home-schooled children are more likely to be abused than non-home-schooled children. And if you can't.... please retract your idiotic comment.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 04:26 PM
A) This child never said what you say he said. I know I cannot prove it, so we'll have to wait for judgement day, but I hope to check on this to see if I was right.
B) Even though he never said what you are claiming, it still would have no bearing on how he would treat his children years later.
C) Even though this boy's parent didn't believe in good spanking (at best, not knowing the boy's parent's intentions), the child turned out to be a great blessing to his own children if 'he became known as a "very strict" father'. Or did you mean that the boy grew up to actually abuse his children?I don't tell lies, dude. This really did happen.

But the vast majority of child abuse comes from parents that don't believe in spanking. That's ridiculous.

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 04:32 PM
No. That were true then we'd find a number of abused children had been homeschooled. This isn't what we find. What we find is most abused kids are in public or private school. In fact, a good way to get rid of a lot of abuse would be to get rid of public school. I'd go into the reasons for this but we've talked about it before and you have an inability to reason on this subject.I don't believe that most home-schooled kids are being especially abused, but your comment, here, is as ridiculous as your previous one. Public schools have nothing whatever to do with who abuses their kids any more than home-schooling does. Crow was right. People who want to abuse their kids will, and no religious dogma, public school, private school, or home-school is going to stop them.

Lighthouse
April 13th, 2005, 04:40 PM
That's true, but please keep in mind that the parents who do abuse their children also believe that they love them and are not abusing them, even though they are.
Not always. There are some abusers who do not believe that they love their children. In fact, they will honestly admit that they hate their children.

Lighthouse
April 13th, 2005, 04:53 PM
But the vast majority of child abuse comes from parents that don't believe in spanking. Their kids become such monsters from constantly being improperly raised that the parent's frustration finally reaches a point that they explode.
:BRAVO:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 05:06 PM
What a complete asinine thing to assert.

These are sort of brainless comments that deserved to be challenged.

Please provide evidence that home-schooled children are more likely to be abused than non-home-schooled children. And if you can't.... please retract your idiotic comment.


I think Mr. 5020's remark bothered a lot of us. Before jumping on him, I would like to know exactly what he meant by it???

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 05:45 PM
I think Mr. 5020's remark bothered a lot of us. Before jumping on him, I would like to know exactly what he meant by it???
Can I jump on him after he tells us what he meant?

Mr. 5020
April 13th, 2005, 09:37 PM
:down: Only the media believes the vast majority of homeschoolers have something to hide. In reality, nearly all homeschooling parents love and care about their children and would not dream of abusing them.I agree. I just said it was a good place to hide, which apparently makes me a dork, right Knight?

Husband&Father
April 13th, 2005, 11:04 PM
Christians seem to think that because they're Christians they are suddenly immune to their own sins. And it's this imaginary immunity that the bigot and abuser will hide his sins and his crimes behind.


What? The Christian life is about accepting the fact that sins must be paid for.

SOTK
April 13th, 2005, 11:31 PM
I don't believe that most home-schooled kids are being especially abused, but your comment, here, is as ridiculous as your previous one. Public schools have nothing whatever to do with who abuses their kids any more than home-schooling does. Crow was right. People who want to abuse their kids will, and no religious dogma, public school, private school, or home-school is going to stop them.

I agree with this. Abuse can happen with the rich, poor, white, black, purple, etc.

PureX
April 14th, 2005, 05:45 AM
What? The Christian life is about accepting the fact that sins must be paid for.Well paid for or not, Christians still sin. And some of them still abuse and beat their children, or abuse and beat their wifes, just like some still cheat on their husbands or wives, and tell lies, and do all the other sinful things that human beings do. But for some reason, it seems to me that a lot of Christians think that Christians don't do these things just because they're Christians. But of course that's not true. Christians do these things just like any other group of people do. But this denial can become a good cover. Just like being a priest can provide a good cover for men who want to molest children. Parents think that because a man is a priest, he couldn't possibly be a pedophile, and so they trust him unreasonably (or used to). And I think this happens among other kinds of Christians, too, besides Catholics.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 09:14 AM
this is a good post. (#79)

Why is PureX in the red?

Crow
April 14th, 2005, 09:16 AM
Probably because a bunch of people have given him bad reputation.

PureX
April 14th, 2005, 09:19 AM
No, just one person.

Yorzhik
April 14th, 2005, 12:11 PM
I don't tell lies, dude. This really did happen.
IF he did say words that were similar to what you record here, then the context was different and what was meant is not what you are conveying. And secondly, it's still my opinion that he didn't even say what you are claiming he said. But again, we'll have to wait at best. I cannot prove you wrong.


But the vast majority of child abuse comes from parents that don't believe in spanking.
That's ridiculous.
You're wrong. If you are right that most child abusers are parents that love their children, and those that do have children that rebel even in the face of reason or grounding or removal of privileges, then those children will eventually drive the parent/parents to rage. What else are they supposed to do? They cannot give the children away, and if you think the children will suddenly become "good" out of the blue then you don't know how children generally act.

Yorzhik
April 14th, 2005, 12:13 PM
Oh, and BTW PureX, we know that parents that abuse their chilren don't think it is normal discipline because they hide it as best they can.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 12:13 PM
I agree. I just said it was a good place to hide, which apparently makes me a dork, right Knight?
Did I misunderstand your post?

It seemed to me you were stating that homeschool families were "hiding" their abuse of their children by homeschooling. Is that not what you were saying?

PureX
April 14th, 2005, 02:48 PM
IF he did say words that were similar to what you record here, then the context was different and what was meant is not what you are conveying. And secondly, it's still my opinion that he didn't even say what you are claiming he said. But again, we'll have to wait at best. I cannot prove you wrong.He was hurt, and he was angry, and he was feeling humiliated, and he was reacting the way a lot of people react in that situation - he was looking for someone to punish. He was feeling that if he could make someone else suffer, then his own dignity would be restored. He didn't know he was feeling all of this, though, he was just a kid. But he was feeling it, and he did say what he said - several times. And he did grow up to be just like his father: angry, red-faced, humorless, hyper-controlling and very unhappy.

I can tell you another story about abuse, too, and this one also is true.

I joined the army on the "buddy plan" with a friend named Jim. The army promissed that if you join as buddies, they will let you serve together, so we went to basic training in the same company, though Jim was put in a different squad, and was in a different section of the barracks.

One evening I heard a ruckus going on in the hallway, and stepped out to see what was going on. What I saw was a group of guys from Jim's squad pushing another guy down the hall. They were hitting him and kicking him and shouting that they were going to take him into the showers because he stinks. The truth, though, was that this guy was a little bit chubby and they had all ganged up on him to abuse him, to make themselves feel better (remember that the drill sargents had been abusing and humiliating all of us all day long - that's what they do in basic training). And the guy at the head of this pack of bullies was my buddy Jim.

So I stepped in front of the whole group, and in front of my friend Jim, and just looked at him in surprise and said, "Jim, what the hell are you doing?" He looked at me with his face all red and said; "Get the f___ out of the way, or your next!" And I beleived he meant it. I stepped aside and he and this pack of dogs took that guy into the showes and they scrubbed the skin off his back with steel wool. He had to be taken to the hospital and later he was dismissed from the army. You think he's still carying those scars?

Jim and I were never really friends after that. And I got myself purposely thrown out of the army a while later for going a.w.o.l. and Jim ended up cutting his wrists, so they threw him out, too.

The point is that this is how some people react when they are abused - they look for someone else to abuse in turn, so that they can "restore" their own sense of empowerment. And that's what John was feeling that day when he said that he couldn't wait to have kids of his own so he could beat the sh__ out of them.

These things really happened. And my life is not unusual. Open your eyes, and use the brain God gave you, and you'll see what I've seen. I don't hate John, or Jim, or anyone else. But this is what happens to people when they're abused. And this is what they do to other people, in turn. God bless 'Lighthouse's' dad for having the courage to break the chain of abuse that he suffered from as a kid.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 05:27 PM
Did I misunderstand your post?

It seemed to me you were stating that homeschool families were "hiding" their abuse of their children by homeschooling. Is that not what you were saying?No, that is not what I was saying. I was saying (as has been shown in several news articles posted here) that a place that child abusers hide is in the homeschool system, because some states (including my own) pay no attention to children outside the public school system.

Christine
April 14th, 2005, 05:48 PM
No, that is not what I was saying. I was saying (as has been shown in several news articles posted here) that a place that child abusers hide is in the homeschool system because some states (including my own) pay no attention to children outside the public school system.

Far more child abusers send their kids off to school every day, than those who keep them home under the lie of "homeschooling." Most parents who say they are "homeschooling" who just happen to be child abusers often aren't homeschooling legally and are teaching their children very little if any acedemic subjects.

The government has no place poking their noise in homeschooling or child rearing. Children aren't abused because the "government didn't do enough." Often neighbors, extended family, and friends know about abuse but don't report it, therefore, they are the one's at fault.

PureX
April 14th, 2005, 05:55 PM
No, that is not what I was saying. I was saying (as has been shown in several news articles posted here) that a place that child abusers hide is in the homeschool system, because some states (including my own) pay no attention to children outside the public school system.My fear with home-schooling wouldn't be so much that it's a way to hide physical abuse, though I'm sure that does happen. It would be abuse through over control. Some parents abuse their children by completely controlling them, and dominating them to the point where they never learn to think for themselves, and they're scaired to death to even try. That's the form of abuse and the kind of person I could see being very attracted to home-schooling.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:00 PM
No, that is not what I was saying. I was saying (as has been shown in several news articles posted here) that a place that child abusers hide is in the homeschool system, because some states (including my own) pay no attention to children outside the public school system.OK... I think I get your point. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:02 PM
Far more child abusers send their kids off to school every day, than those who keep them home under the lie of "homeschooling." Most parents who say they are "homeschooling" who just happen to be child abusers often aren't homeschooling legally and are teaching their children very little if any acedemic subjects.

The government has no place poking their noise in homeschooling or child rearing. Children aren't abused because the "government didn't do enough." Often neighbors, extended family, and friends know about abuse but don't report it, therefore, they are the one's at fault.Although I did misunderstand Mr. 5020's point, Christine makes a far more accurate analysis in my opinion. :up:

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:05 PM
:o

.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Then give me my 75 points back! ;)
I did.... dork!



;)

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:07 PM
I did.... dork!



;)
Dang it!!! I was trying to edit it!!!!

:sozo2: :chuckle:

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:07 PM
and give me mine back too! You took 2 x 75 from me :)

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:08 PM
Far more child abusers send their kids off to school every day, than those who keep them home under the lie of "homeschooling." Most parents who say they are "homeschooling" who just happen to be child abusers often aren't homeschooling legally and are teaching their children very little if any acedemic subjects. What study are you using for these statistics?

The government has no place poking their noise in homeschooling or child rearing. Children aren't abused because the "government didn't do enough." Often neighbors, extended family, and friends know about abuse but don't report it, therefore, they are the one's at fault.What study are you using for these statistics?

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:08 PM
and give me mine back too! You took 2 x 75 from me :)There was no misunderstanding between us that I am aware of.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:09 PM
and give me mine back too! You took 2 x 75 from me :)Hey now, he took 150 from me too. :)

SOTK
April 14th, 2005, 06:11 PM
I did.... dork!



;)

We need a "dork: smilie! :crackup:

SOTK
April 14th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Dang it!!! I was trying to edit it!!!!

:sozo2: :chuckle:

:doh: :chuckle:

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:13 PM
Hey now, he took 150 from me too. :)
The other one was deserved.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:13 PM
There was no misunderstanding between us that I am aware of.

but you hit me hard twice for the Bob Enyart stuff, and if I recall correctly, we aren't fighting anymore ;)

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:14 PM
The other one was deserved.
I shouldn't take a rep hit like that just for not sharing his opinion. It was not deserved, IMHO

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:17 PM
I shouldn't take a rep hit like that just for not sharing his opinion. It was not deserved, IMHOHe was talking to me.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:19 PM
oh ok

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM
I shouldn't take a rep hit like that just for not sharing his opinion. It was not deserved, IMHO:doh:Dude... you are such a knob!

I might just give you another rep hit for that dumb comment. Personally I am suprised you have ANY rep points at all!

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:22 PM
:doh:Dude... you are such a knob!

I might just give you another rep hit for that dumb comment. Personally I am suprised you have ANY rep points at all!I tried, but alas....

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Edge again.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:25 PM
:doh:Dude... you are such a knob!

I might just give you another rep hit for that dumb comment. Personally I am suprised you have ANY rep points at all!
Apparently I'm liked by many people.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM
I guess I will go easy on "The Edgeian", all that U2 worship may be causing a strain on his brain.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Apparently I'm liked by many people.There is still time.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:27 PM
I guess I will go easy on "The Edgeian", all that U2 worship may be causing a strain on his brain.
now is this a joke?

check out my signature, dude.

I worship the Edge no more than you worship Jack Black.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Knight, do you want me to fail or something? Let it go dude. We made progress yesterday.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:29 PM
now is this a joke?

check out my signature, dude.

I worship the Edge no more than you worship Jack Black.Uh... that's like my 9 millionth avatar I have used. Not only that but, my username is.... "Knight", not Jack Black.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:29 PM
now is this a joke?

check out my signature, dude.
"What does God need with a starship?"

Captain Kirk, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier:confused:

I worship the Edge no more than you worship Jack Black.Because Knight's username is.....

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:30 PM
my point exactlhy, 5020

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Knight, do you want me to fail or something? Let it go dude. We made progress yesterday.
It has nothing to do with yesterday.

I call things like I see them, and I "see" that everytime I run into you.... you say something stupid.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:31 PM
my point exactlhy, 5020:confused:

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:32 PM
my point exactlhy, 5020
ROTFL... :darwinsm:

I don't think you could get a point if it jabbed you in the eye.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:33 PM
It has nothing to do with yesterday.

I call things like I see them, and I "see" that everytime I run into you.... you say something stupid.
Well, apparently many others disagree. You are not the only judge of what's stupid or not. It's your OPINION if something I say is stupid.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:33 PM
ROTFL... :darwinsm:

I don't think you could get a point if it jabbed you in the eye.Phew...I thought I misunderstood my own point. :chuckle:

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Well, apparently many others disagree. You are not the only judge of what's stupid or not. It's your OPINION if something I say is stupid.Many others? Knight hit both of us twice with his bad rep points, and my rep power is almost double yours.

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:34 PM
i wish the reps would refresh faster

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:34 PM
5020, you've been around longer. more people know you

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:36 PM
5020, you've been around longer. more people know youAccording to our profiles, you joined in September 2001 and I joined in November 2002.

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:37 PM
i wish the reps would refresh fasterMaybe you should try changing your username to "I love reps", and then you could make your avatar a picture of a giant GREEN rep block and finally make signature a plead for rep points. :mrt:

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:38 PM
According to our profiles, you joined in September 2001 and I joined in November 2002.
Ouch!

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Ouch!:chuckle:

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:40 PM
5020, I have been virtually nonexistant here until January. SO even though I joined that long ago, I began 2005 with a post count barely over 100, but now it's much higher. Nobody really knew me until this year.

Knight just loves the pain, doesn't he? :)

Knight
April 14th, 2005, 06:41 PM
:shut:

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 06:44 PM
:shut:
:sigh:

Turbo
April 14th, 2005, 08:51 PM
and give me mine back too! You took 2 x 75 from me :)Consider yourself lucky.

Mr. 5020
April 14th, 2005, 08:55 PM
Consider yourself lucky.:chuckle:

The Edge
April 14th, 2005, 09:01 PM
:ha:

SOTK
April 14th, 2005, 09:08 PM
:chuckle:

Yorzhik
April 23rd, 2005, 12:03 AM
He was hurt, and he was angry, and he was feeling humiliated, and he was reacting the way a lot of people react in that situation - he was looking for someone to punish. He was feeling that if he could make someone else suffer, then his own dignity would be restored. He didn't know he was feeling all of this, though, he was just a kid. But he was feeling it, and he did say what he said - several times. And he did grow up to be just like his father: angry, red-faced, humorless, hyper-controlling and very unhappy.

I can tell you another story about abuse, too, and this one also is true.

I joined the army on the "buddy plan" with a friend named Jim. The army promissed that if you join as buddies, they will let you serve together, so we went to basic training in the same company, though Jim was put in a different squad, and was in a different section of the barracks.

One evening I heard a ruckus going on in the hallway, and stepped out to see what was going on. What I saw was a group of guys from Jim's squad pushing another guy down the hall. They were hitting him and kicking him and shouting that they were going to take him into the showers because he stinks. The truth, though, was that this guy was a little bit chubby and they had all ganged up on him to abuse him, to make themselves feel better (remember that the drill sargents had been abusing and humiliating all of us all day long - that's what they do in basic training). And the guy at the head of this pack of bullies was my buddy Jim.

So I stepped in front of the whole group, and in front of my friend Jim, and just looked at him in surprise and said, "Jim, what the hell are you doing?" He looked at me with his face all red and said; "Get the f___ out of the way, or your next!" And I beleived he meant it. I stepped aside and he and this pack of dogs took that guy into the showes and they scrubbed the skin off his back with steel wool. He had to be taken to the hospital and later he was dismissed from the army. You think he's still carying those scars?

Jim and I were never really friends after that. And I got myself purposely thrown out of the army a while later for going a.w.o.l. and Jim ended up cutting his wrists, so they threw him out, too.

The point is that this is how some people react when they are abused - they look for someone else to abuse in turn, so that they can "restore" their own sense of empowerment. And that's what John was feeling that day when he said that he couldn't wait to have kids of his own so he could beat the sh__ out of them.

These things really happened. And my life is not unusual. Open your eyes, and use the brain God gave you, and you'll see what I've seen. I don't hate John, or Jim, or anyone else. But this is what happens to people when they're abused. And this is what they do to other people, in turn. God bless 'Lighthouse's' dad for having the courage to break the chain of abuse that he suffered from as a kid.
Oops. I almost missed this one.

"He was hurt, and he was angry, and he was feeling humiliated, and he was reacting the way a lot of people react in that situation - he was looking for someone to punish. He was feeling that if he could make someone else suffer, then his own dignity would be restored."
And did you / do you think like this friend?

So your friend Jim was abused? You didn't establish that in your story. Was he like your other friend, just a victim of random violence?

PureX
April 23rd, 2005, 06:40 AM
Oops. I almost missed this one.

"He was hurt, and he was angry, and he was feeling humiliated, and he was reacting the way a lot of people react in that situation - he was looking for someone to punish. He was feeling that if he could make someone else suffer, then his own dignity would be restored."
And did you / do you think like this friend?No. That's why I tried to stop him.

So your friend Jim was abused? You didn't establish that in your story. Was he like your other friend, just a victim of random violence?He had been abused at home, growing up. But that wasn't what was causing him to behave the way he was behaving at that moment, it was because the drill sargents had been abusing us all, since we got there. That's what drill sargents do in basic training. And some people react to it by wantng to abuse someone else, in turn. That's what Jim and his friends were doing. They'd found a scape-goat, and they were abusing him because they were angry about having been abused all week by the drill sargents, and because doing so made them feel empowered again. (When people abuse us, they take away our power: our control over our own well-being. And some of us will seek to regain this sense of self-empowerment by doing the same thing to someone else.)

Yorzhik
April 27th, 2005, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by PureX
He had been abused at home, growing up. But that wasn't what was causing him to behave the way he was behaving at that moment, it was because the drill sargents had been abusing us all, since we got there. That's what drill sargents do in basic training.
Whoa there hoss. One cannot break the rebellion to authority in a potential soldier with abuse. Drill sergeant school has a high wash-out rate because the training (of recruits) needs to be done in a certain way. And abuse isn't part of it. Drill sergeants are held in high regard in the service because they can train soldiers; and in just a few weeks time which requires the process be very intense. Abuse doesn't work to train - in fact it causes rebellion.

You seem to have a problem with knowing the difference between training and abuse. Sometimes negative feedback is required. What kind of negative feed back do you think is okay for it to be considered training and not abuse?


And some people react to it by wantng to abuse someone else, in turn. That's what Jim and his friends were doing. They'd found a scape-goat, and they were abusing him because they were angry about having been abused all week by the drill sargents, and because doing so made them feel empowered again. (When people abuse us, they take away our power: our control over our own well-being. And some of us will seek to regain this sense of self-empowerment by doing the same thing to someone else.)
What does any of this have to do with spanking?

Poly
April 27th, 2005, 12:48 PM
One thing about this thread, it's easy to seperate those who do and do not have children.

PureX
April 27th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Whoa there hoss. One cannot break the rebellion to authority in a potential soldier with abuse. Drill sergeant school has a high wash-out rate because the training (of recruits) needs to be done in a certain way. And abuse isn't part of it. Drill sergeants are held in high regard in the service because they can train soldiers; and in just a few weeks time which requires the process be very intense. Abuse doesn't work to train - in fact it causes rebellion.

You seem to have a problem with knowing the difference between training and abuse. Sometimes negative feedback is required. What kind of negative feed back do you think is okay for it to be considered training and not abuse?Well, you can call it whatever you want, but whatever it was, it left the trainees feeling exhausted, humiliated, frightened and angry all at the same time. And a few of them decided that the only way they could feel strong and in control again was by abusing someone else. Abusers never think that what they're doing should be called "abuse". They never think they're abusing anyone. But using violence and humiliation against other people is called abuse.

What does any of this have to do with spanking?It doesn't have anything to do with "spanking".

Servo
April 27th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Did anyone catch this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154586,00.html) last night on Fox News?

"What is going on when a five-year-old girl throwing a tantrum at school has to be handcuffed and led away by no less than three police officers?! "

They showed some video of the five year old misbehaving. It was pretty funny and sad at the same time.

Crow
April 27th, 2005, 02:34 PM
Maybe you should try changing your username to "I love reps", and then you could make your avatar a picture of a giant GREEN rep block and finally make signature a plead for rep points. :mrt:

:darwinsm:

Yorzhik
April 27th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by PureX
Well, you can call it whatever you want, but whatever it was, it left the trainees feeling exhausted, humiliated, frightened and angry all at the same time.
But this doesn't constitute abuse.


Originally posted by PureX
Abusers never think that what they're doing should be called "abuse". They never think they're abusing anyone.
Yes they do. That's why they go to such lengths to hide it.


Originally posted by PureX
But using violence and humiliation against other people is called abuse.
I see. You're wrong. Using violence and humiliation unjustly is called abuse. If it is used justly, then it is either punishment or training.

That is why kids that are properly spanked are happy, respectful, and well adjusted.


Originally posted by PureX
It doesn't have anything to do with "spanking".
Well that's good. But you send conflicting signals when you say that any violence and humiliation is abuse. Spanking is both violent and humiliating.

So your friend was abused at home, but not spanked? And if he had been spanked only, then you would also say he was not abused, right?

Also, I'm still curious; what kind of negative feed back do you think is okay for it to be considered training and not abuse?

Delmar
April 27th, 2005, 03:30 PM
Now be a good soldier and give me 50 pushups please... if it wouldn't hurt your feelings.

Crow
April 27th, 2005, 03:32 PM
5020, you've been around longer. more people know you

Oh, that reminds me. Here are some reps for you, Mr 5020.

Nineveh
April 27th, 2005, 06:11 PM
Did anyone catch this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154586,00.html) last night on Fox News?

"What is going on when a five-year-old girl throwing a tantrum at school has to be handcuffed and led away by no less than three police officers?! "

They showed some video of the five year old misbehaving. It was pretty funny and sad at the same time.


I thought it was pathetic, personally :(

That little girl had no self control and the "adult in charge" was at her mercy.

Christine
April 27th, 2005, 07:23 PM
That little girl had no self control and the "adult in charge" was at her mercy.Think what that girl'll be like in 10 years. *shudder*

Lighthouse
April 27th, 2005, 11:14 PM
Now be a good soldier and give me 50 pushups please... if it wouldn't hurt your feelings.
:ha:

One Eyed Jack
April 28th, 2005, 12:46 AM
My mother used a wooden-handled hair brush. That thing KILLED.

Plastic hairbrushes hurt pretty bad too, if you get conked a good one on top of the head. Of course it didn't kill me, but I was pretty disoriented for the rest of the day -- so much so that I was sent home from school.

Delmar
April 28th, 2005, 05:55 AM
Plastic hairbrushes hurt pretty bad too, if you get conked a good one on top of the head. Of course it didn't kill me, but I was pretty disoriented for the rest of the day -- so much so that I was sent home from school.
Ok I'm pretty sure we can all agree that getting conked on the head is over the line.

PureX
April 28th, 2005, 09:16 AM
Did anyone catch this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154586,00.html) last night on Fox News?I think the story points out how complex things have become these days. The teacher was not allowed to discipline the child because of the fear of law suits, and because some teachers in the past have abused their "right" to use physical violence as a method of discipline. The police used the minimum of force that they have available to them, but they're not really suited for dealing with small children who act out in this way. They did the best they could under the circumstances. The parent was probably at work, as most parents now days have to work, and as most of us now commute longer distances to work, too, couldn't be there quickly. So the bottom line is that we have no immediate resource to call on when a child has such a problem at school.

The world becomes more and more complex. And the knee-jerk reaction is often to over-simplify our perception of reality to make it easy for us to understand and deal with, again. Sometimes that works, but often it does not. Ignoring the complex specifics of a given situation doesn't make them go away. It just makes us less effectual in dealing with them even if it allows us to pretend we were effective.

Hopefully the child in that story will eventually get the help she needs - be it a spanking, or psychological help, or even medication. The bottom line, though, is that we don't know what she needs, and neither did the teacher or the police at the time, so they did the best they could under the circumstances.

I don't think that's anything for them to be ashamed of. And I don't think that's anything for anyone else to be ashamed of, either. We have to do what we can with the condition that we find ourselves in.

Nineveh
April 28th, 2005, 09:32 AM
And now handcuffing a 5 year old isn't abuse but spanking is.

The only help that little girl needs is to "apply the board of education to the seat of understanding".

PureX
April 28th, 2005, 12:27 PM
And now handcuffing a 5 year old isn't abuse but spanking is.

The only help that little girl needs is to "apply the board of education to the seat of understanding".I think it's really odd that you would be so in favor of using physical violence on a child, rather than the "scared strait" method of having the police put hand cufs on her and "arrest" her. Seems to me that if there's a non-violent way of teaching her that there are consequences for her misbehavior, that would be all the better, woudn't it?

Nineveh
April 28th, 2005, 12:44 PM
It would have been better if her mother had taught her discipline at home.

JoyfulRook
April 28th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Did anyone catch this (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,154586,00.html) last night on Fox News?

"What is going on when a five-year-old girl throwing a tantrum at school has to be handcuffed and led away by no less than three police officers?! "

They showed some video of the five year old misbehaving. It was pretty funny and sad at the same time. I saw that. What a brat. A couple spankings would have solved that. The police have better thing to do (like pulling over dads who are late for their child's soccer game and are 15 miles over the speed limit :rolleyes: ) than to handcuff a 5 year old. Very pathetic. :nono:

JoyfulRook
April 28th, 2005, 01:01 PM
Hopefully the child in that story will eventually get the help she needs.... even medication. Yeah that'll solve the problem. Put her on some ritalin and some psychotropic dope.



I don't think that's anything for them to be ashamed of. And I don't think that's anything for anyone else to be ashamed of, either. We have to do what we can with the condition that we find ourselves in.

The Parents should be ashamed for at least three reasons:
1. They're kid is a brat and they obviously haven't been very good parents.
2. They're kid was arrested at 5 years old.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Policemen/women should be ashamed for at least 3 reasons:
1. They arrested a 5 year old for throwing a temper tantrum.
2. Their station had to give the excuse that they are new recruits.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Teacher should be ashamed for at lest 3 reasons:
1. A little 5 year old girl was being aggressive and she couldn't defend herself.
2. She is the brat's teacher.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Videographer should be ashmed because:
1. A little 5 year old girl was throwing a temper tantrum (eg. screaming, jumping on table, hitting teacher, flagrantly disobeying) and all the videographer could do was tape.
2. The videographer's video tape was shown on Fox News.

I think there should be some shame for all of those involved.

PureX
April 28th, 2005, 02:31 PM
Yeah that'll solve the problem....You must have been there, as you seem to know exactly what happened and exactly who's at fault, an all. So why didn't YOU fix everything with some good old fashioned violence? Maybe you could have beat the teacher after you got done beating some sense into that little brat. Maybe you could have beat the cops butts a little, too, just to show those sissies how a real man takes care of these things. And don't forget the mom, you'd have to give her a good beating for letting her kid be such a brat to start with. Then I guess you'll have to come teach me a lesson, too, for daring to point out that violence isn't always the best solution. Looks like you got your work cut out for you, huh.

Yorzhik
April 28th, 2005, 04:44 PM
You must have been there, as you seem to know exactly what happened and exactly who's at fault, an all. So why didn't YOU fix everything with some good old fashioned violence? Maybe you could have beat the teacher after you got done beating some sense into that little brat. Maybe you could have beat the cops butts a little, too, just to show those sissies how a real man takes care of these things. And don't forget the mom, you'd have to give her a good beating for letting her kid be such a brat to start with. Then I guess you'll have to come teach me a lesson, too, for daring to point out that violence isn't always the best solution. Looks like you got your work cut out for you, huh.
:first: POTD!

JoyfulRook
April 28th, 2005, 05:03 PM
Do you really agree with his post?

JoyfulRook
April 28th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Or were you joking?

ShadowMaid
April 28th, 2005, 08:05 PM
I think the point Dad is trying to make is that yes, we should use a paddle on the mother, teacher, etc. etc.

Yorzhik
April 28th, 2005, 08:15 PM
I think the point Dad is trying to make is that yes, we should use a paddle on the mother, teacher, etc. etc.
ShadowMaid is indirectly correct. That is the point I was making by mocking PureX.

Lighthouse
April 28th, 2005, 11:05 PM
Yeah that'll solve the problem. Put her on some ritalin and some psychotropic dope.



The Parents should be ashamed for at least three reasons:
1. They're kid is a brat and they obviously haven't been very good parents.
2. They're kid was arrested at 5 years old.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Policemen/women should be ashamed for at least 3 reasons:
1. They arrested a 5 year old for throwing a temper tantrum.
2. Their station had to give the excuse that they are new recruits.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Teacher should be ashamed for at lest 3 reasons:
1. A little 5 year old girl was being aggressive and she couldn't defend herself.
2. She is the brat's teacher.
3. There was a video tape of it that was shown on Fox News.

The Videographer should be ashmed because:
1. A little 5 year old girl was throwing a temper tantrum (eg. screaming, jumping on table, hitting teacher, flagrantly disobeying) and all the videographer could do was tape.
2. The videographer's video tape was shown on Fox News.

I think there should be some shame for all of those involved.
:first:SPOTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=740678&postcount=1)

JoyfulRook
April 29th, 2005, 08:32 AM
ShadowMaid is indirectly correct. That is the point I was making by mocking PureX.That's what I thought but I wasn't sure. :D