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The Edge
April 10th, 2005, 07:19 PM
Apology retracted. I have the right to disagree.

Knight
April 10th, 2005, 07:36 PM
I pray that Enyartians realize that he is just a man with some strange ideas and to keep focused on true Christianity. :doh:

PureX
April 10th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Now let's put this to rest because I am not going to endorse Bob Enyart's ideas. But I'm sorry for any behavior of mine that was inconsistant with the attitude of Christ. I ask for forgiveness.Relax. Some people are going to get upset no matter what you do. They want to get upset. And most of the time it has nothing to do with anything or anyone but themselves.

Regarding Enyart, I don't post my opinions of Enyart because I have nothing at all good to say about him, and my mama always said if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all. So I don't. I did ask him some questions a while ago, but of course he ignored them. So i figure we're even.

Some of us can be a bit abrasive, and I know I'm often guilty of that. But I don't think being abrasive is anything we need to apologize for. Being dishonest, or being abusive, now that's something else ... but most of the time when people are being dishonest on these threads, they themselves are the first person they lied to, ya' know? And when they're being abusive, they're already so immature and so spiritually bankrupt that there's not much point in expecting them to even acknowledge their own behavior, let alone apologize for it.

Relax. you're nicer than a lot of people are around here, and you're more honest, too. You got nothin' to apologize for.

The Edge
April 10th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Thanx Pure X

Nineveh
April 10th, 2005, 08:36 PM
Edge,
I merely asked you for some evidence to back up your claims. I hardly see that as "guns blazing". And I'd have you know if someone came on TOL and accused you of things, I would ask them for some evidence too. Since it isn't me you are making claims about, all I can say is, if I were, I wouldn't accept an apology for the way you were spreading rumors.

Turbo
April 10th, 2005, 09:11 PM
I pray that his friends realize that he is just a man with some ideas that many don't agree with and to keep focused on true Christianity.
:doh:

Turbo
April 10th, 2005, 09:12 PM
i meant to go back in and edit out the word "enyartian." Sorry I missed that one -- look again now
You still missed one.

Wamba
April 10th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I pray that his friends realize that he is just a man with some ideas that many don't agree with and to keep focused on true Christianity.

:doh:

Lighthouse
April 10th, 2005, 09:20 PM
What's wrong with the sentence now? There are a lot of people who don't agree with Enyart. Even Christians. Of course, if they paid more attention to him they might find themselves agreeing. I mean, that has happened before, even on here, hasn't it?:eek:

beefalobilly
April 10th, 2005, 09:23 PM
so does someone want to explain to me enyart in a nutshell?

julie21
April 10th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Oh Edge...some of them don't seem to have their pound of flesh yet! What more can you do?...nothing! Just leave them to keep on in that way and don't bother with this tripe anymore. My opinion only sport, but personally, why don't you let them draft exactly the words they want you to use, and then sign it, preferably in blood!
People can be Christian and charitable...an apology was made...grow up!

Nineveh
April 10th, 2005, 09:37 PM
Oh Edge...some of them don't seem to have their pound of flesh yet! What more can you do?...nothing! Just leave them to keep on in that way and don't bother with this tripe anymore. My opinion only sport, but personally, why don't you let them draft exactly the words they want you to use, and then sign it, preferably in blood!
People can be Christian and charitable...an apology was made...grow up!

Well, I guess I should offer an apology of my own:

Edge, I'm so very sorry I asked you for some proof of your claims.

Knight
April 10th, 2005, 11:09 PM
People can be Christian and charitable...an apology was made...grow up!Uh.... Julie... be honest can you really call Edges post above an apology?

Seriously????

Normally, an apology doesn't include several more of the exact same insults that the apology was in regard to.

I really do not think you are looking at this whole issue very objectively. I am pretty sure that if someone began insulting you and your pastor the way the Edge has done here on TOL you would (and should) be defending yourself and your friend/pastor in the same way we are defending our friend. I am guessing that you would be viewing this entire discourse very differently if the shoe was on the other foot.

Knight
April 10th, 2005, 11:25 PM
For the most part, Enyart supporters came after me angrily and with guns blazing.LOL.... "guns blazing"...... :darwinsm:

Hit it Stevie....

:singer:
Keep smiling, keep shining
Knowing you can always count on me, for sure
That's what friends are for
For good times and bad times
I'll be on your side forever more
That's what friends are for

OK... not exactly Vanilla Ice but Elton :flamer:, Dionne and Stevie will have to do!

The Edge
April 11th, 2005, 05:56 AM
It seems that since my apology is not good enough maybe I should just retract it. Nothing will satisfy you guys.

julie21
April 11th, 2005, 06:08 AM
Uh.... Julie... be honest can you really call Edges post above an apology?

Seriously????

Normally, an apology doesn't include several more of the exact same insults that the apology was in regard to.

I really do not think you are looking at this whole issue very objectively. I am pretty sure that if someone began insulting you and your pastor the way the Edge has done here on TOL you would (and should) be defending yourself and your friend/pastor in the same way we are defending our friend. I am guessing that you would be viewing this entire discourse very differently if the shoe was on the other foot.

So Knight...you see that is where we differ. I wouldn't go on and on admonishing him in front of all in such a grandiose display ;) Really...this could go on and on forever...so why not be the better guys and drop it into TOL oblivion? Or do you guys get some sense of self gratification in hounding someone until eternity comes? Even your good friend Bob would limit his airtime going at an opponent to a specified time and then move on to his next opponent...what value is there to be had in this persistent .... that is going on?
I personally cannot see the Edge changing from his views...and neither you guys from yours. So when will the innings be through so that everyone can move on? I am sure that you have rebuked enough for him to get your particular message...even if it wasn't a 'gentle rebuke', but turned into a schoolyard type of fiasco.
I guess that Bob E would be used to such criticism, not just from Edge, but many quarters. Noble of you to defend his feelings in this, but when does it all end...?

I am pretty sure that if someone began insulting you and your pastor the way the Edge has done here on TOL you would (and should) be defending yourself and your friend/pastor in the same way we are defending our friend
...and that is where we definitely differ...in the mode used. I wouldn't resort to child-like behaviour, as in posting 'rap' poetry, and just outright picking. I ave sensibilities re others and the way that they should be rebuked, if the need arises...and I know when to call it a day. ;)

Delmar
April 11th, 2005, 06:11 AM
so does someone want to explain to me enyart in a nutshell? It would probably be better if you went to KGOV.com and checked out his ministry yourself. My guess would be you won't like him but I hate to see you judge him based on anothers opinion.

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 06:43 AM
so does someone want to explain to me enyart in a nutshell?
He's a Christian radio shock jock. Conviced child abuser. For more info go to www.kgov.com.

The Edge
April 11th, 2005, 07:02 AM
It seems that since my apology is not good enough maybe I should just retract it. Nothing will satisfy you guys.

Done. I'm not going on with this anymore. I feel how I feel about Mr. Enyart. I'm not sorry I got jumped all over. Back to real theology and fellowship!! :p

JoyfulRook
April 11th, 2005, 07:18 AM
Edge: What exactly is your problem with Enyart......

The Edge
April 11th, 2005, 07:53 AM
I disagree with some of his views, and they all appear previously.

Servo
April 11th, 2005, 08:01 AM
I disagree with some of his views, and they all appear previously.

And you know what Enyart's views are because you listen to his show? You buy his Bible study tapes? How?

Zakath
April 11th, 2005, 08:13 AM
And you know what Enyart's views are because you listen to his show? You buy his Bible study tapes? How?:chuckle:
You forgot to suggest he actually buy someting specific ... ;)

Servo
April 11th, 2005, 08:42 AM
:chuckle:
You forgot to suggest he actually buy someting specific ... ;)

Do you mean the June '03 debate? He can view that here for FREE!

If he wants to read the beating in book form, then it’s gonna cost em.

Nineveh
April 11th, 2005, 08:56 AM
It seems that since my apology is not good enough maybe I should just retract it. Nothing will satisfy you guys.

You could try retracting your statements you have no proof for.

beefalobilly
April 11th, 2005, 09:02 AM
It would probably be better if you went to KGOV.com and checked out his ministry yourself. My guess would be you won't like him but I hate to see you judge him based on anothers opinion.

Thanks, I actually found enyart.com where he has some info about himself, I do disagree with some of what he has to say but not all. I've never heard his show, but from some of his quotes it does sound like he could be considered a "shock jock" but I don't know..

beefalobilly
April 11th, 2005, 09:04 AM
He's a Christian radio shock jock. Conviced child abuser. For more info go to www.kgov.com.

What makes you call him a child abuser? I saw nothing to indicate child abuse from his site.

The Edge
April 11th, 2005, 09:17 AM
Beefalobilly,
There's an article in the Denver post several years ago stating that he served a jail term for a child abuse conviction. He beat his stepson with a belt until there were welts and blood.

Nineveh
April 11th, 2005, 09:22 AM
beefalobilly,
Or you can read (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17039) just about the only article I can find on the issue.

Wamba
April 11th, 2005, 09:24 AM
It seems that since my apology is not good enough maybe I should just retract it. Nothing will satisfy you guys.


It was a backhanded apology.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 09:49 AM
If Enyart is a "Shock Jock" then Paul of Tarsus was a "Shock Apostle" .

Zakath
April 11th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Hey Knight,

Didn't we decide that Enyartians was preferred over Enyartites a long while ago? ;)

ducks for cover

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 10:03 AM
It was a backhanded apology.

Correct.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 10:06 AM
Hey Knight,

Didn't we decide that Enyartians was preferred over Enyartites a long while ago? ;)

ducks for coverAre you sure it wasn't.... Enyarites?

Zakath
April 11th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Are you sure it wasn't.... Enyarites?I don't quite recall, that's why I asked... :think:

... they say memory is the second thing to go... now if I could only remember the first thing... ;)

aharvey
April 11th, 2005, 11:37 AM
beefalobilly,
Or you can read (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17039) just about the only article I can find on the issue.
beefalobilly,

Better yet, just do a google search on "enyart stepson jail." You'll get a couple dozen hits (with the usual redundancy and irrelevant links), not all of which exclude the welts and broken skin part as did the WorldNet version. Some of these articles also state that the kid wasn't actually his stepson at the time, another detail not mentioned in the WorldNet story (I don't know whether that last part's accurate, but it should be easily verifiable).

Delmar
April 11th, 2005, 02:46 PM
Thanks, I actually found enyart.com where he has some info about himself, I do disagree with some of what he has to say but not all. I've never heard his show, but from some of his quotes it does sound like he could be considered a "shock jock" but I don't know.. Enyart.com is run by a supporter of Bob KGOV is his own site.

Delmar
April 11th, 2005, 02:49 PM
beefalobilly,

Better yet, just do a google search on "enyart stepson jail." You'll get a couple dozen hits (with the usual redundancy and irrelevant links), not all of which exclude the welts and broken skin part as did the WorldNet version. Some of these articles also state that the kid wasn't actually his stepson at the time, another detail not mentioned in the WorldNet story (I don't know whether that last part's accurate, but it should be easily verifiable). He was not his stepson at the time of the spanking but he was at the time of the trial.

JoyfulRook
April 11th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Beefalobilly,
There's an article in the Denver post several years ago stating that he served a jail term for a child abuse conviction. He beat his stepson with a belt until there were welts and blood.
He spanked his son 5 swats on the butt. There wasn't blood.

BillyBob
April 11th, 2005, 04:20 PM
Really...this could go on and on forever...so why not be the better guys and drop it into TOL oblivion?


That's not how we do things around here!


:eek:






:chuckle:

BillyBob
April 11th, 2005, 04:22 PM
Hey Knight,

Didn't we decide that Enyartians was preferred over Enyartites a long while ago? ;)



'Enyartites'? Does Bob have his own line of underwear, now??
:freak:

BillyBob
April 11th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Beefalobilly,
There's an article in the Denver post several years ago stating that he served a jail term for a child abuse conviction. He beat his stepson with a belt until there were welts and blood.


Since when is spanking a kid with a belt considered child abuse????? :confused:

I went a few rounds with the belt whaen I was a kid and deserved it.

[I wonder if it's too late to sue my parents?] :think:

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Since when is spanking a kid with a belt considered child abuse????? :confused:

It's not.



I went a few rounds with the belt whaen I was a kid and deserved it.

Yep! Me too! :up:



[I wonder if it's too late to sue my parents?] :think:

:idea:

:nono:

:down:

That's what the liberals would like us to do, huh?

JoyfulRook
April 11th, 2005, 05:19 PM
It's not.

And it shouldn't be.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 05:25 PM
'Enyartites'? Does Bob have his own line of underwear, now??
:freak:
That's the same thing I was thinking. :shocked:

Wamba
April 11th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Apology retracted. I have the right to disagree.


You have the right to disagree but that doesn't mean you're right to disagree.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Since when is spanking a kid with a belt considered child abuse????? :confused:
Since when??? Since the liberals took over the "just-a-system".

When I was little.... my dad crafted this really wicked paddle. It was about the size of a ping-pong paddle and it had a black handle with a glossy green paint job. My dad had drilled holes in the paddle so that it would swing through the air faster. And when he would swing it through the air it would make a "swooshing" sound.

And my dad would say.....
"Ya hear that? This paddle sings a song of pain and death".

And then he would smilie.

The funny part of all of this is.... if you all knew my dad you would really appreciate this story even more. My dad is the most sweet loving parent anyone could ever imagine. He loved me so much that he would attempt to scare the hell out of me!!! :shocked: I am so thankful that my father did what was best for me even if it was hard for him.

Recently.... me and my pop found the old paddle and we both got a good chuckle. Then I took the paddle and placed it upstairs and showed it to my kids. My kids think its really awesome! Except of course when it sings. :)

I decided to start a new thread with this post because I am curious as to what some of you might think about it and I don't want to derail this thread even further.
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=720886#post720886

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 05:42 PM
What makes you call him a child abuser? I saw nothing to indicate child abuse from his site.Pastors don't usually advertise their criminal records on their web sites. You can Google it easily. Here's another one, for example: http://www.nospank.net/n-e81.htm.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 06:00 PM
Pastors don't usually advertise their criminal records on their web sites. You can Google it easily. Here's another one, for example: http://www.nospank.net/n-e81.htm.Your link is to a website that advocates prosecuting parents for spanking their children! What a bunch of flaming retards!!!

Idiots!!

These lunatics would have jailed my father.


MISSION STATEMENT

The organization PARENTS AND TEACHERS AGAINST VIOLENCE IN EDUCATION takes the position that children should no longer be excluded from the legal protections against assault and battery that apply to adults. Moreover, the defense of children should be more vigorous because they are more vulnerable; because the consequences of their early mistreatment are difficult to reverse; because damaged children tend to grow into damaged adults who are likely to avenge themselves in one way or another. If they will not harm others, then they will likely harm themselves, and they may passively support the mistreatment of children perpetrated by others. Current research in the field of child development overwhelmingly confirms the theory that the earlier and the worse the mistreatment of children, the worse the outcome.

We believe that the information we offer to professionals in the healthcare and educational fields and to parents and other childcare providers by means of our Web site and printed literature can lead the way to a healthier and more peaceful society governed by the principles of nonviolence-based interactions for all. :loser:'s

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Your link is to a website that advocates prosecuting parents for spanking their children! What a bunch of flaming retards!!!

Idiots!!

These lunatics would have jailed my father.

:loser:'s
I agree, the site owners are idiots. But they were quoting the Denver Post.

But come one, how funny is "nospank.net"? :chuckle:

beefalobilly
April 11th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Yeah, I agree that spanking is perfectly acceptable, I got a few swats as a kid and deserved it, but if it is true that the kid had bleeding and welts then that seems to be over board. The idea is to punish, not injure. But I haven't seen the pictures so I won't make any judgement.

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I agree that spanking is perfectly acceptable, I got a few swats as a kid and deserved it, but if it is true that the kid had bleeding and welts then that seems to be over board. The idea is to punish, not injure. But I haven't seen the pictures so I won't make any judgement.

Considering the target area of a spanking, would you want to see any pictures?

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Yeah, I agree that spanking is perfectly acceptable, I got a few swats as a kid and deserved it, but if it is true that the kid had bleeding and welts then that seems to be over board. The idea is to punish, not injure. But I haven't seen the pictures so I won't make any judgement.As a note, I'll never admit to knowing whether or not Enyart actually did anything that I would consider "abuse." However, he is a convicted child abuser.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 06:30 PM
Considering the target area of a spanking, would you want to see any pictures?

:crackup:

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 07:00 PM
I agree, the site owners are idiots. But they were quoting the Denver Post.The Denver Post is a left wing wacko newspaper. The more "conservative" paper here in town is the Rocky Mountain News. A few years ago the News and the Post merged which left no balance at all.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 07:03 PM
However, he is a convicted child abuser.Yep... that is true.

Which brings us full circle.... are we really prepared to accept this new definition of "child abuse"?

Bob Enyart is no more a child abuser than my father is a child abuser nor anymore than most grandmothers that I know.

beefalobilly
April 11th, 2005, 07:05 PM
Considering the target area of a spanking, would you want to see any pictures?
:doh: :D no thanks!

Seriously though, I think if the whoopin' was NOT severe enough to warrent child abuse, then why would they be able to convict him on pictures taken later? If it was really only a mild spanking, you'd think that it would go away in a few minutes.

Considering it would have only been his testimony versus his step-sons, its the picture that made the case. And I seriously doubt that he would've been convicted if there was only some redness (that likely would disappear after a few minutes)

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 07:26 PM
I agree, the site owners are idiots. But they were quoting the Denver Post.

But come one, how funny is "nospank.net"? :chuckle:Oh and as a side note.... Mr. 5020 did you read the article you referenced? It was actually pretty reasonable. Was there anything in that article that made you think Bob Enyart did anything more than typical child discipline?

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 08:02 PM
Oh and as a side note.... Mr. 5020 did you read the article you referenced? It was actually pretty reasonable. Was there anything in that article that made you think Bob Enyart did anything more than typical child discipline?

As a note, I'll never admit to knowing whether or not Enyart actually did anything that I would consider "abuse." However, he is a convicted child abuser.One addition to this: I understand BobE was not the step-father of the child at the time. If you were a child's father, and some other man beat your child to the point of welts, would you not file charges? I would.

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 08:07 PM
One addition to this: I understand BobE was not the step-father of the child at the time. If you were a child's father, and some other man beat your child to the point of welts, would you not file charges? I would.

Given permission, does that still make it wrong?

If I had a babysitter whom I trusted, and she/he was babysitting my children, I would allow them to spank my kids.

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Given permission, does that still make it wrong?

If I had a babysitter whom I trusted, and she/he was babysitting my children, I would allow them to spank my kids.To the point of red welts?

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 08:13 PM
To the point of red welts?

For goodness sakes! I can make a red mark (small welt), by slapping my finger against my arm! If doesn't even hurt! Of course I want the spanking to hurt/sting, so yes, welts are okay.

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 08:14 PM
For goodness sakes! I can make a red mark (small welt), by slapping my finger against my arm! If doesn't even hurt! Of course I want the spanking to hurt/sting, so yes, welts are okay.
I'm talking about welts/bruises that last long enough for the police to take pictures later. I have a feeling we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 08:17 PM
I'm talking about welts/bruises that last long enough for the police to take pictures later. I have a feeling we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

I have made welts that last a pretty long time. My sister and Dad have left bruises. It's true, we really don't want the police getting on our case, but we're not child abusers. Welts and bruises are okay.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 08:23 PM
The Denver Post is a left wing wacko newspaper. The more "conservative" paper here in town is the Rocky Mountain News. A few years ago the News and the Post merged which left no balance at all.


You ought to try reading The Oregonian some time! :down: I live next to Portland, Oregon which is liberal city! :freak:

The Edge
April 11th, 2005, 08:35 PM
Portland, Oregon is a cool song by Lorretta Lynn and Jack White

Lucky
April 11th, 2005, 08:36 PM
You ought to try reading The Oregonian some time!
I doubt I could even pronounce it. Sounds like a LOTR character.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I'm talking about welts/bruises that last long enough for the police to take pictures later. I have a feeling we'll just agree to disagree on this one.


Did you happen to read my post on spanking in the "Zakath is Genuine" thread. I basically wrote that spanking is not a science; I don't believe any form of discipline is. Time outs have backfired on me before. My point is that things can sometimes not go the way you want them to go. Spanking is no exception. I once left marks and bruises on my son due to his squirming around. In my attempt to hold him down, my spanking tool came down a little wrong. Personally, I feel this was a natural consequence of my son failing to follow my directions. I felt a little bad about it at first, but as I said, I really saw it as a natural consequence. He sure learned from it! Interestingly enough, he doesn't move around anymore! Not only that, he's hardly needed a spanking since!

My son once got into a fight in pre-school. He antagonized a kid and the kid hauled off and smacked him. It left a bruise and mark. Should I have pressed charges against the kid? No. My son got what was coming to him. It was a natural consequence, and again, one he learned from.

We are too quick to pass judgement on things like this as a society anymore. It's ridiculous! A kid got kicked out of school around my area because he kissed a girl on the cheek. They called it sexual harassment. The kids were 8 years old! :doh:

This kind of stuff never happened when I was a kid. Teachers and principlas spanked and it wasn't abuse. I just think it's ridiculous! :nono:

I do want to say that I believe child abuse exists and it happens. I've seen it. All I'm saying is that the line between child abuse and corporal punishment is extremely blurred. We're not being honest with ourselves if we don't see how probable it is that their are good parents out there being crucified by the liberal media. We are also kidding ourselves if we don't think it's possible that parents can be wrongly prosecuted for child abuse. I've also seen this.

I'm telling you; our society has gone plain looney :kookoo:!

Yorzhik
April 11th, 2005, 08:44 PM
...and Dad have left bruises.
I didn't do it. Nobody saw me. You can't prove anything.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 08:45 PM
I doubt I could even pronounce it. Sounds like a LOTR character.

:chuckle:

OR-E-GO-NIAN

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 08:49 PM
I didn't do it. Nobody saw me. You can't prove anything.

:shut:

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Where is the love?

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 08:54 PM
Where is the love?

Not sure I understand your question....

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 08:56 PM
Not sure I understand your question....

Why can't we all just get along?

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 08:59 PM
Why can't we all just get along?

:flamer:

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:08 PM
"We're all God's children."

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 09:13 PM
Why can't we all just get along?

Humans don't want to accept that there's an authority over them. So they make this messed up society which contradics not only itself in many places, but it very much goes against the truth.

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 09:19 PM
We are the world,
We are the children,
We are the ones that make a better place....

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Give peace a chance.

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Give peace a chance.

There can be no peace in a pagan run country.

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:27 PM
We are the people.

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 09:28 PM
(I think he's being facetious)

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 09:28 PM
We are the people.

You're not making any sense... at least to me. Can you rephrase that please?

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 09:29 PM
You're not making any sense... at least to me. Can you rephrase that please?

(I think he's being facetious)

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 09:32 PM
If he is, I'd like for him to say so. Otherwise I don't understand.

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:32 PM
We all bleed the same color blood.

Imrahil
April 11th, 2005, 09:33 PM
We all bleed the same color blood.
I think she's missing the satire of your posts.

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 09:34 PM
:confused: I must be missing something. :o

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:42 PM
"We are the world."

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 09:50 PM
There can be no peace in a pagan run country.

Exactly right! :up: You have points! :)

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 09:54 PM
"We're all basically good."

ShadowMaid
April 11th, 2005, 10:03 PM
Exactly right! :up: You have points! :)

Thanks!

Now what I being to serious when ninjashadow was joking? :confused:

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 10:09 PM
"Love will guide us through."

Mr. 5020
April 11th, 2005, 10:12 PM
Thanks!

Now what I being to serious when ninjashadow was joking? :confused:
Yes, you whert.

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 10:14 PM
:chuckle:

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 10:15 PM
:darwinsm: :chuckle: :crackup:

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 10:16 PM
ShadowMaid, people were arguing on here (kind of the point of this forum, I know) so I started spouting stupid liberal "catchphrases" in response to it. I was just joking around.

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 10:38 PM
"all sin is the same".

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 10:38 PM
"we shouldn't judge."

Knight
April 11th, 2005, 10:38 PM
"hate the sin, love the sinner."

Ninjashadow
April 11th, 2005, 10:40 PM
I can't believe I forgot three of the biggest ones!!

SOTK
April 11th, 2005, 11:30 PM
"hate the sin, love the sinner."


Is this one your favorite? :chuckle:

julie21
April 12th, 2005, 02:24 AM
I'm talking about welts/bruises that last long enough for the police to take pictures later. I have a feeling we'll just agree to disagree on this one.
That makes two of us on this one!

Delmar
April 12th, 2005, 04:46 AM
As a note, I'll never admit to knowing whether or not Enyart actually did anything that I would consider "abuse." However, he is a convicted child abuser. So you have no problem refering to someone, who never abused their child as a conviicted child abuser, as long as he was convicted.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 05:30 AM
That makes two of us on this one!
Three.

Delmar
April 12th, 2005, 06:13 AM
To the point of red welts? My mother spanked me many times in my childhood. She raised welts on my backside exactly once, which caused her to adjust the manner in which she spanked me. Did that one spanking cross over the line of abuse? It did cross over a line that she made sure never to cross again! That fact alone tells me she was not given to child abuse.

Caille
April 12th, 2005, 07:44 AM
So you have no problem refering to someone, who never abused their child as a conviicted child abuser, as long as he was convicted.


Since you declined to follow up on the thread " Zakath is Genuine" http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19304&page=22&pp=15, I'll bring it over here.



http://www.corpun.com/usdm9904.htm

xcerpt from the article:

April 10 - Denver Christian radio talk-show host Bob Enyart was handcuffed in a Jefferson County courtroom Friday and led to jail to begin serving a 60-day sentence for beating his stepson with a belt.

Enyart was convicted in 1995 of misdemeanor child abuse resulting in injury for inflicting bruises, welts and broken skin on the buttocks of his stepson, Stephen, who was 7 at the time. The misdemeanor case took two trials in Jefferson County and almost five years to play out.

"It's been a very long process, it's been very hard on Stephen," said John Mayns, the boy's father and custodial parent. Through the lengthy process, Enyart claimed that he did nothing wrong, saying in 1997 that "taking a boy to the woodshed" was once "politically correct." Enyart did not address the court Friday. But Mayns said the discipline was more than a mere spanking.

"He did not spank him, he beat him," Mayns said. The beating with a belt, for which Enyart was sentenced to jail, happened in the boy's mother's Arvada home. Enyart disciplined Stephen, at the behest of the boy's mother, Cheryl, for refusing to take a shower. The couple was dating at the time, but was not yet married. He was also accused of beating his stepson another time on a camping trip in El Paso County but was later acquitted.





Did Enyart use a belt ?

Was the the child Enyart's stepson at the time of the incident ?

Was the father convinced that abuse had occurred ?

Was the judge convinced that abuse had occurred ?

I guess the only way that Enyart would no longer be considered a "convicted child abuser" would be if he was pardoned. Has this happened?

At what point does discipline turn into abuse ?

How hard would you have to swing a belt to break the skin ?

Does it matter if the action is perpetrated by somebody unrelated to the child ? Without the permission of both parents ?

In a case like this one, who do you think should get to determine whether the line between discipline and abuse has been crossed ?

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 07:49 AM
So you have no problem refering to someone, who never abused their child as a conviicted child abuser, as long as he was convicted.To say someone is a convicted child abuser isn't a matter of opinion; it is a fact.

Caille
April 12th, 2005, 07:52 AM
For goodness sakes! I can make a red mark (small welt), by slapping my finger against my arm! If doesn't even hurt! Of course I want the spanking to hurt/sting, so yes, welts are okay.



And how hard would you have to slap your finger against your arm to break the skin ?

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 08:10 AM
The article I read, the first one I found, indicated that there were welts and broken skin.

BillyBob
April 12th, 2005, 08:13 AM
I see that this thread is winding down.

You know what they say 'All's welt that ends welt'. :freak:

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 08:17 AM
For what it's worth, I am a "fan" of Mr. Enyart and I think that he is widely misunderstood, even at times by those who support him. In his public persona, he is deliberately confrontational. This is because he is trying to use the Law for its proper purpose, which is to convict the lost of their sinfulness and lead them to the understanding that they need a Savior. He cares about people enough to risk the condemnation even of brothers in Christ as a "shock jock" or some kind of deranged lunatic. I do not agree with him on all matters theological. But I think he is a legitimate servant of God and is worthy of support.

Yes he did spend time in jail. However, I would attribute this much more to the corruption of the secular law than to his own corruption.

Granite
April 12th, 2005, 09:20 AM
He hurt the kid, he went to jail. Not much more can be said.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 09:59 AM
I see that this thread is winding down.

You know what they say 'All's welt that ends welt'. :freak:
:chuckle:

Turbo
April 12th, 2005, 10:05 AM
And how hard would you have to slap your finger against your arm to break the skin ?


The prosecution attempted to make the argument that if a red welt is examined close enough (microscopically) the redness of the welt is caused from broken blood vessels i.e., bleeding.

The press ran with this asinine logic and the rest is.... as they say.... history. :)
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=720908&postcount=6

beefalobilly
April 12th, 2005, 10:29 AM
My mother spanked me many times in my childhood. She raised welts on my backside exactly once, which caused her to adjust the manner in which she spanked me. Did that one spanking cross over the line of abuse? It did cross over a line that she made sure never to cross again! That fact alone tells me she was not given to child abuse.

That's your mom though, not Mr. Enyart ;)

From my personal experience (being spanked by my parents), it's not the physical pain of spanking that causes the punishment. I can remember my parents spanking me and I would purposely cry, even though the pain wasn't enough to warrent crying, only because I wanted to make them feel bad. I feel the punishment comes more from the distance it creates. I loved my parents, and any kid who's been raised properly loves their parents, and feels bad when they've created a rift between them...

Also, the kid wasn't even techincally his son at the time, enyart was only dating the mom (according to the article just posted). And the kids real father said something to the effect of "he didn't spank him, he beat him" which indicates to me that this father isn't opposed to spanking, because he doesn't automatically equate spanking with beating or child abuse.

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 10:31 AM
That's your mom though, not Mr. Enyart ;)

From my personal experience (being spanked by my parents), it's not the physical pain of spanking that causes the punishment. I can remember my parents spanking me and I would purposely cry, even though the pain wasn't enough to warrent crying, only because I wanted to make them feel bad. I feel the punishment comes more from the distance it creates. I loved my parents, and any kid who's been raised properly loves their parents, and feels bad when they've created a rift between them...

Also, the kid wasn't even techincally his son at the time, enyart was only dating the mom (according to the article just posted). And the kids real father said something to the effect of "he didn't spank him, he beat him" which indicates to me that this father isn't opposed to spanking, because he doesn't automatically equate spanking with beating or child abuse.

So the spanking incident is the only thing anyone is really concerned about?

Turbo
April 12th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Check out http://shadowgov.com
Good stuff! :up:

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 10:38 AM
Okay, I checked it out.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 10:39 AM
the site changed....not the right one

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 10:40 AM
the site changed....not the right one

Well, what was the point you were going for?

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 10:42 AM
it's supposed to be a writing about how Enyart wants to set up some kind of theological dictatorship in the US.

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 10:47 AM
I know he favors monarchy as a form of government.

Anyway, what about the basic idea that he is active in trying to lead people to Jesus? Is there no merit to this?

Granite
April 12th, 2005, 10:47 AM
it's supposed to be a writing about how Enyart wants to set up some kind of theological dictatorship in the US.

More or less...

beefalobilly
April 12th, 2005, 11:23 AM
So the spanking incident is the only thing anyone is really concerned about?

No, that's just what we were discussing. Even if you assume he lost control and went way overboard on the kid, that doesn't invalidate any of his other beliefs, it just means he screwed up.

Caille
April 12th, 2005, 12:02 PM
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=720908&postcount=6


Knight, Turbo - never seen that spin, too bad there's no corroborating evidence for it. No response to my questions either, and since Deardelmar seems to have lost interest, I'll make my final point.

IMHO, Enyart was lucky to get off as lightly as he did. If the boyfriend of my estranged wife (or ex-wife) did that to my seven year old son, I'm not sure I would bother calling the cops. I think I would be more inclined to deal with him myself. What do scriptures say about protecting your family ?

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 12:32 PM
Caille,

There's much more than this incident. You should read some of his writings.

docrob57
April 12th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Caille,

There's much more than this incident. You should read some of his writings.

I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but since I don't know what you are apologizing for, could you tell me what your objections are to the writings?

Lucky
April 12th, 2005, 12:52 PM
You should read some of his writings.
Yep, good stuff. :up:

Crow
April 12th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Yep, good stuff. :up:
Yup. :thumb:

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 01:08 PM
Yep, good stuff. :up:
Some of it.

Imrahil
April 12th, 2005, 01:15 PM
Some of it.
Which ones didn't you like?

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 01:17 PM
I'm not sure which ones they were. BobE's been on my ignore list for a little while now.

Lucky
April 12th, 2005, 01:35 PM
I'm not sure which ones they were. BobE's been on my ignore list for a little while now.
It obviously wasn't his Battle Royale posts. :angel:

He got his hind parts whipped so badly against Bob Enyart, it made him sick, and he had to call in back-up.* (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=661145&postcount=43)

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 01:41 PM
I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but since I don't know what you are apologizing for, could you tell me what your objections are to the writings?

Negative. I retracted my apology.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 01:50 PM
It obviously wasn't his Battle Royale posts. :angel:
This is true. :o

Caille
April 12th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Caille,

There's much more than this incident. You should read some of his writings.


Been there, done that. You want to have some fun, slog through his Battle Royale, my introduction to this site.

If you're interested in getting a real feel for the man, check out this thread

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12416

The show should be available online at www.kgov.com.

BillyBob
April 12th, 2005, 02:37 PM
I know he favors monarchy as a form of government.


Then he must have loved the Clintons.....

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 02:39 PM
Knight, Turbo - never seen that spin, too bad there's no corroborating evidence for it. No response to my questions either, and since Deardelmar seems to have lost interest, I'll make my final point.

IMHO, Enyart was lucky to get off as lightly as he did. If the boyfriend of my estranged wife (or ex-wife) did that to my seven year old son, I'm not sure I would bother calling the cops. I think I would be more inclined to deal with him myself. What do scriptures say about protecting your family ?You have a backward idea of "protection".

I want my children to be raised in a godly way. If my children were disrespecting their mother they would deserved to be spanked. I would be thankful to the father figure that had the boldness to discipline them the way they should be disciplined.

I do not want to "protect" them from what is proper.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 02:44 PM
Caille,

There's much more than this incident. You should read some of his writings.I am pretty sure me and Bob Enyart agree on almost every major political and theological point. I am aware of some small differences in opinion I have with Bob but nothing major to my knowledge.

Therefore....
If you believe Bob is in error you must believe I am in error.

If I am in error I want to know about it so I can change my position.

I publicly challenge you to show me where I am in error. Please feel free to start a new thread so we can discuss this matter in depth. Feel free to start with any topic that you feel Bob (and I) are in error.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure which ones they were. BobE's been on my ignore list for a little while now.
Huh???

Bob only has a few posts here on TOL. Why would you bother to put him on ignore? It sounds to me like you may have other "issues".

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Anyone who doesn't like Bob has "issues"
:think:

Imrahil
April 12th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Anyone who doesn't like Bob has "issues"
:think:
Is that what he said?

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Anyone who doesn't like Bob has "issues"
:think:
That isn't what I said now is it Edgeian? :nono:

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Yes, imrahil, but my point is it seems that disagreeing with the man, not liking the man gets you in trouble around here.

Knight, I reject the challenge because it won't change anything. We will agree to disagree. If that means I disagree with you, so be it.

It would be a pretty boring board if it were full of nothing but Bob fans.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Yes, imrahil, but my point is it seems that disagreeing with the man, not liking the man gets you in trouble around here.

Knight, I reject the challenge because it won't change anything. We will agree to disagree. If that means I disagree with you, so be it.

It would be a pretty boring board if it were full of nothing but Bob fans.Forget about Bob!!!

You missed the point.

The point is... I do not want to be believing in error. And since you seem to know that Bob has suspect views... and since I am friends with Bob and happen to know my views and Bob's views are very similar, you must be aware that my views are suspect as well. I want to know where my views are in error. I want to be "closer to truth", don't you? If you can help me.... but refuse, I can only assume you care little for me. :(

Imrahil
April 12th, 2005, 05:07 PM
Yes, imrahil, but my point is it seems that disagreeing with the man, not liking the man gets you in trouble around here.


"Yes" as in yes that is what Knight said?

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 05:13 PM
I care for you knight, but am afraid I don't have time to put into a huge, researched debate. My views have all been stated on this board. Refer to my previous posts, dig into the Scripture, and reread post 111, and you'll get it. I won't trust any man that says it's ok for Erin to do what she did to me just for being a kind and caring person and then refuse to apologize for it.

I don't think any of Bob's views have any eternal effect on your soul, that is I don't think he's spreading any false gospel. It's his methods and some of the other things he seems to believe in. So I don't believe you are hellbound for believing in Bob.

Some little old weatherman is not going to change everything. I came along to show that theologians are not perfect, and I hope people realize that. That is why I almost never mentnion the theologians I like, whether I was personal friends with them or not, because by doing so I would adopt their label and open myself up to the same attacks that you did. And I don't mean to attack, just to raise possibilities. I know Bob has lead many to Christ. I know he speaks a lot of truth. Maybe he repented of his child abuse, and if he did, it would ne nice if it was made known. I'm not a politician, but I get the willies when reading about his governmental views, and that's all I can say right now.

drbrumley
April 12th, 2005, 05:16 PM
I care for you knight, but am afraid I don't have time to put into a huge, researched debate. .

Translation,

I want to continue to talk about and say things about people or issues I have no idea about.

Crow
April 12th, 2005, 05:17 PM
I am pretty sure me and Bob Enyart agree on almost every major political and theological point. I am aware of some small differences in opinion I have with Bob but nothing major to my knowledge.


While we're at it, Edge, I am close to Bob Enyart's view on almost every major theological issues and many social/political ones. In fact, I very likely would never have come to Christ had it not been for Bob Enyart. I also would like to know where you consider both Bob and Knight to be in error, as I am even closer to Knight's views politically.

drbrumley
April 12th, 2005, 05:19 PM
Crow,

Dont hold your breath waiting for an answer.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 05:33 PM
I care for you knight, but am afraid I don't have time to put into a huge, researched debate.We don't need to go into a "huge researched debate". I just want to know where I am in error can't you tell me????

We are already here on TOL discussing all sorts of stuff can't you take the time to point me in the right direction???

[Mick Jagger] Time is on our side [/Mick Jagger]

We have nothing but time! Come on let's dive into the nuts and bolts... that's what TOL is intended for.


My views have all been stated on this board. Refer to my previous posts, dig into the Scripture, and reread post 111, and you'll get it. I won't trust any man that says it's ok for Erin to do what she did to me just for being a kind and caring person and then refuse to apologize for it. I want to know about these "other things" that I am so wrong about.

Surely you have the courtesy to tell me.... don't you?


I don't think any of Bob's views have any eternal effect on your soul, that is I don't think he's spreading any false gospel. It's his methods and some of the other things he seems to believe in. So I don't believe you are hellbound for believing in Bob. I don't know what "believing in Bob." means? Was that supposed to be another insult?

Do you have any favorite Bible teachers? Do you "believe in them"? Or would it make more sense to say you enjoy their work and have learned from them? :rolleyes:


Some little old weatherman is not going to change everything.That isn't true.... if several folks are agreeing with the "little old weatherman" who says its going to be very hot tomorrow and therefore they are all planning a picnic in the park yet you happen to know there is going to be a surprise blizzard, it is a bit rude of you to withhold this very pertinent information.


I came along to show that theologians are not perfect, and I hope people realize that. Another mischaracterization of this discourse. Do you have it in you to state something in an honest way?

Has anybody made the claim that Bob Enyart is perfect?

The answer is NO. Please do a better job communicating.


That is why I almost never mentnion the theologians I like, whether I was personal friends with them or not, because by doing so I would adopt their label and open myself up to the same attacks that you did. And I don't mean to attack, just to raise possibilities. I know Bob has lead many to Christ. I know he speaks a lot of truth. Maybe he repented of his child abuse, and if he did, it would ne nice if it was made known. I'm not a politician, but I get the willies when reading about his governmental views, and that's all I can say right now.:doh: Bob didn't repent of his child abuse because IT WASN'T child abuse!!!

You still don't get it do you?

Spanking your children isn't a crime! Only left wing wacko's think it is a crime and that is the side you have taken.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Translation,

I want to continue to talk about and say things about people or issues I have no idea about.
:chuckle:

Crow
April 12th, 2005, 05:42 PM
*checks watch*

*crickets chirping*

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 05:52 PM
We need a cricket smilie.

Ninjashadow
April 12th, 2005, 05:53 PM
:think:

Lucky
April 12th, 2005, 05:57 PM
I think a sound byte (http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/crickets/domest.wav) would work better.

drbrumley
April 12th, 2005, 05:59 PM
I think a sound byte (http://creatures.ifas.ufl.edu/misc/crickets/domest.wav) would work better.
That was to funny.

Ninjashadow
April 12th, 2005, 05:59 PM
I almost fell asleep listening to that.

BillyBob
April 12th, 2005, 06:01 PM
:chuckle:

Maybe there is a way to link the sound byte to a cricket smilie.

[It would get used as much as :Commie: , :flamer: and :cow: .] :eek:

Caille
April 12th, 2005, 06:05 PM
I am pretty sure me and Bob Enyart agree on almost every major political and theological point. I am aware of some small differences in opinion I have with Bob but nothing major to my knowledge.

Therefore....
If you believe Bob is in error you must believe I am in error.

If I am in error I want to know about it so I can change my position.

I publicly challenge you to show me where I am in error. Please feel free to start a new thread so we can discuss this matter in depth. Feel free to start with any topic that you feel Bob (and I) are in error.

Thanks in advance for your time.



OK - since this was directed at Edge in reply to a post I had made, I'll give it a crack (ignoring the fact that the questions I asked earlier have still gone unanswered).

I believe Bob's approach as detailed here http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12416 is in error, specifically that it comes very close to violating the ninth commandment


BTW – I won’t be back until tomorrow morning.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 07:00 PM
OK - since this was directed at Edge in reply to a post I had made, I'll give it a crack (ignoring the fact that the questions I asked earlier have still gone unanswered).

I believe Bob's approach as detailed here http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12416 is in error, specifically that it comes very close to violating the ninth commandment


BTW – I won’t be back until tomorrow morning.Sorry to burst your bubble but I do not read all the posts on TOL. So I do not know what questions of yours have gone "unanswered" and I am really am not sure what your link is referencing.... so maybe we should just start from scratch eh?

Let's just remove the veil of ambiguity and springboard ourselves into the wonderful world of clarity. Fair enough?

Give me an issue that you disagree with.... let's start with just one issue so we can tackle it in the proper way. Deal?

Maybe the best the best thing to do is when you return to TOL start a new thread titled something like....
"Hey Knight you are wrong about such and such, or wrong about so and so."

Then we can see if it leads us anywhere. :cool:

Currently my main focus is on our "Edgeian" since he is the one attempting to make the most noise but I will gladly entertain you as well.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 07:12 PM
The stuff I read about his governmental plans, about setting up a theological monarchy, and immediatly executing not only murderers, but all old testament capital crimes including homosexuality, I don't agree with that because Jesus came to fulfill the law.

But I"m not a left wing liberal. I'm a right winger, and I support both the death penalty and spanking. God told us to be in submission to the government ordained over us, and that I what I believe we should do. I support the death penalty for murder, because that is what's in the Bible and that's what the US government ordained as legal. "Whoever sheds blood, by man shall his blood be shed." I guess one of my problems is with the homos....they shouldn't be put to death in the first few days. It's a sin, and they can turn from it later in life, as I am sure I told you one of my college friends has.

Again, I am not against spanking. My mum says I spank my kid too much....but I don't think it's right to whip someone with a belt and make welts. Whether the skin was truely broken or not, someone thought this was severe enough to press charges, and we shouldn't subject ourselves to that kind of questioning as Christians. My spanks hurt but they don't injure my boy. And another major reason I am against Bob Enyart is because I came on this board and just tried to be a friendly guy, and a Bob supporter has singlehandely come out and publically attacked me for no reason at all, and then used Enyart's writings to back themselves up. I can't agree with a Christian who thinks that is ok.

That, in a nutshell, is why I disagree with Bob Enyart. And no Bob supporters are willing to say "Bob may be going about it wrong" and just continue to attack me. Well I don't care anymore. If you all don't like me, I don't care. I don't see a problem with his fundamental theology, but I disagree with his harsh, confrontational, insulting style, his constant seeking of media attention for his protests, his spanking a boy that wasn't even his at the time to the point of a trial, and his radical governmental views. I can't back it up except with the Scripture where Jesus says not to go out on the streetcorners and pray with many words and showing everyone you are fasting as a public display, which in my opinion Enyart does by seeking so much media attention.

If you all hate me that's fine. That's how I feel, and I stick to it.

Lucky
April 12th, 2005, 07:23 PM
The stuff I read about his governmental plans, about setting up a theological monarchy, and immediatly executing not only murderers, but all old testament capital crimes including homosexuality, I don't agree with that because Jesus came to fulfill the law.

I support the death penalty for murder, because that is what's in the Bible and that's what the US government ordained as legal.
:doh:

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 07:24 PM
Lucky, if I am in error on my interpretation of Bob's intent, please enlighten me.

Imrahil
April 12th, 2005, 07:25 PM
:doh:
Copy that. :doh:

ShadowMaid
April 12th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Copy that. :doh:

Ditto :doh:

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Huh???

Bob only has a few posts here on TOL. Why would you bother to put him on ignore? It sounds to me like you may have other "issues".96, to be exact. And what does post totals have to do with the ignore list. I also have "gimp" on that list.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 07:28 PM
Roger that, everyone.

Crow
April 12th, 2005, 07:28 PM
Ditto. :doh:

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 07:29 PM
Lucky, if I am in error on my interpretation of Bob's intent, please enlighten me.He's saying you contradicting yourself. Noticed the emboldened words in your post that he quoted.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 07:30 PM
He's saying you contradicting yourself. Noticed the emboldened words in your post that he quoted.
Well, I'm not perfect. I'll freely admit that.

ShadowMaid
April 12th, 2005, 07:33 PM
Well, I'm not perfect. I'll freely admit that.

Oh good. Then you admit you were in error for that post? :)

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 07:36 PM
Oh good. Then you admit you were in error for that post? :)
So bad... :chuckle:

SOTK
April 12th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Again, I am not against spanking. My mum says I spank my kid too much....but I don't think it's right to whip someone with a belt and make welts. Whether the skin was truely broken or not, someone thought this was severe enough to press charges, and we shouldn't subject ourselves to that kind of questioning as Christians. My spanks hurt but they don't injure my boy..

The Edge,

I am sure you spank as carefully as you can and consistently as you can, however, what if you decided to spank a little harder some time? What if your kid did something, in your mind, which was so wrong you felt a harder spanking was appropriate? And what if this particular spanking left a couple of marks? Now, you still love your kid. That hasn't changed. You just felt a harsher spanking was necessary and you want your kid to seriously learn from this error. Now, let's say the wrong people (biased liberal idiots :loser: ) see the welts and run with it. In other words, for the sake of argument, let's say the shoe is on your foot.

Now, you knew your intentions were right as the father. You also know that, per God and His Word, you have done nothing wrong. Can you honestly tell me that you would deserve prosecution for this?

Think about it.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 08:33 PM
The Edge,

I am sure you spank as carefully as you can and consistently as you can, however, what if you decided to spank a little harder some time? What if your kid did something, in your mind, which was so wrong you felt a harder spanking was appropriate? And what if this particular spanking left a couple of marks? Now, you still love your kid. That hasn't changed. You just felt a harsher spanking was necessary and you want your kid to seriously learn from this error. Now, let's say the wrong people (biased liberal idiots :loser: ) see the welts and run with it. In other words, for the sake of argument, let's say the shoe is on your foot.

Now, you knew your intentions were right as the father. You also know that, per God and His Word, you have done nothing wrong. Can you honestly tell me that you would deserve prosecution for this?

Think about it.
SOTK, very well worded question.

I agree that different types of spanks can be used depending on severity. We usually use either hands or a wooden spoon. Based on severity, we increase the number and speed of the spanks, until we get verbal submission. It's usually not a huge ordeal.

However, we live in a liberal society, and if anyone on the outside sees marks, they are going to haul you away for child abuse. And if you get convicted, whether you meant to or not, that hangs over your head, and family and friends will question your motives, no matter whether you meant to hurt your kid or not. And if a conviction like that hangs over my head, people are going to question my faith, and I don't ever want that to happen. It's better to just eliminate the chance and have a better witness for Christ because of it.

It's possible to spank your kids into submission without leaving a single mark. That's what I think the right thing to do is.

D

SOTK
April 12th, 2005, 08:51 PM
SOTK, very well worded question.

I agree that different types of spanks can be used depending on severity. We usually use either hands or a wooden spoon. Based on severity, we increase the number and speed of the spanks, until we get verbal submission. It's usually not a huge ordeal.

However, we live in a liberal society, and if anyone on the outside sees marks, they are going to haul you away for child abuse. And if you get convicted, whether you meant to or not, that hangs over your head, and family and friends will question your motives, no matter whether you meant to hurt your kid or not. And if a conviction like that hangs over my head, people are going to question my faith, and I don't ever want that to happen. It's better to just eliminate the chance and have a better witness for Christ because of it.

It's possible to spank your kids into submission without leaving a single mark. That's what I think the right thing to do is.

D

The Edge,

You really didn't answer my question. In keeping with my hypothetical, do you feel you should be prosecuted and/or crucified by the liberal media, your family, friends, and co-workers?

On a side note, you do hurt your kids every time you spank. You do know that, don't you? If you don't believe me, take a look at their bare bottoms. It might not be a welt in the sense you are referring to as a welt, but it is a mark nonetheless. You see what I'm getting at? Spankings are supposed to hurt. That's the whole point. It's learning right from wrong through a painful lesson. In a matter of speaking, we are leaving a mark whether their is a physical one or not. Again, that's the whole point.

When you make the decision to follow God's Word and spank your children, you need to realize that it's possible that a spanking or two may end with some marks and bruises. You say it hasn't happened to you yet. I'm saying that it probably will. And if it does, how has anything changed?

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 08:56 PM
SOTK, we're playing with words. Bruises, welts, bleeding is wrong. A red sting is ok; it's like getting hit in the face with a racquetball; it stings a lot for a few minutes and then fades. Yes spankings are supposed to hurt, but not damage. They are supposed to teach.

I guess if Enyart felt he was right, there's nothing I can do. But his conviction causes me not to judge him, but to question him, to look very carefully at what a man like him says before buying wholeheartedly into it.

ShadowMaid
April 12th, 2005, 09:00 PM
I just have a question... if I get a cut on my figer and it bleeds, and then it heals. Is my finger damaged?

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 09:01 PM
Yea!!! Now we are getting somewhere!
The stuff I read about his governmental plans, about setting up a theological monarchy,I have news for you.... a "theological monarchy" is the government of choice when Jesus reigns. When Jesus returns He will not be setting up a democracy.

Theocracies originate from the Bible! The Bible contains the books 1st and 2nd KINGS, I don't recall the book of presidents. :)

So.... that being said... what exactly do you have against theocracies?


and immediatly executing not only murderers, but all old testament capital crimes including homosexuality, I don't agree with that because Jesus came to fulfill the law.He came to fulfill the requirements of the law for Israel He did NOT come to destroy the law.

“ Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." - Matthew 5:17

P.S. None of this has anything to do with the criminal justice system which God has given to man. For if it did nothing would be illegal! The above is in regard to God's law between Himself and Israel.

Kidnapping illegal? NO Jesus fulfilled the law!!!
Rape illegal? NO!!! Jesus fulfilled the law!!!

That isn't very sound logic is it?


But I"m not a left wing liberal. I'm a right winger, and I support both the death penaltyYou do??? But... but.... Jesus fulfilled the law!!!



and spanking. God told us to be in submission to the government ordained over us, and that I what I believe we should do. I support the death penalty for murder, because that is what's in the Bible and that's what the US government ordained as legal. But... but.... Jesus fulfilled the law!!!


"Whoever sheds blood, by man shall his blood be shed." I guess one of my problems is with the homos....they shouldn't be put to death in the first few days. It's a sin, and they can turn from it later in life, as I am sure I told you one of my college friends has. And a murderer cannot turn from his sin? Of course he can! You painfully miss the point of a swift death penalty. God demands a swift death penalty so that men are not provoked into that type of sin in the first place. In other words... when Jesus is ruling over the earth (in the future) men will not become homos and therefore few (if any) will be put to death.

"Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil." Eccl. 8:11


Again, I am not against spanking. My mum says I spank my kid too much....but I don't think it's right to whip someone with a belt and make welts. I honestly do not believe you can spank without leaving at least some redness. I tend to think you are grasping at straws here. I can tell you this.... by your standards my father was a child abuser.


Whether the skin was truely broken or not, someone thought this was severe enough to press charges, and we shouldn't subject ourselves to that kind of questioning as Christians. My spanks hurt but they don't injure my boy. And another major reason I am against Bob Enyart is because I came on this board and just tried to be a friendly guy, and a Bob supporter has singlehandely come out and publically attacked me for no reason at all, and then used Enyart's writings to back themselves up. I can't agree with a Christian who thinks that is ok. No reason at all???? Come on Edge you are a big boy. There should be no reason to pout and feel sorry for yourself, you have admitted yourself you were attempting to rebuke Erin so it isn't as if your opposition was unwarranted.


That, in a nutshell, is why I disagree with Bob Enyart. And no Bob supporters are willing to say "Bob may be going about it wrong" and just continue to attack me.What makes you think any Bob Enyart supporters think Bob is "going about it wrong" in the first place? You can't just assume that you are correct in your analysis and assume that your opposition is wrong. Maybe.... just maybe... you are the one in error and have wrongly judged a pastor and father without having any idea as to what really happened.


Well I don't care anymore. If you all don't like me, I don't care.Spare me the drama. :baby:


I don't see a problem with his fundamental theology, but I disagree with his harsh, confrontational, insulting style,Do you disagree with Jesus confrontational style? How about John the baptist? And what about the apostle Paul?

Do you disagree with....

1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Titus 1:13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,


his constant seeking of media attention for his protests, his spanking a boy that wasn't even his at the time to the point of a trial, and his radical governmental views. I can't back it up except with the Scripture where Jesus says not to go out on the streetcorners and pray with many words and showing everyone you are fasting as a public display, which in my opinion Enyart does by seeking so much media attention.

If you all hate me that's fine. That's how I feel, and I stick to it.:baby: Come Edge... man up!

If you are going to make outlandish accusations you best be prepared to defend yourself. You know the old saying..... don't show up to a gun fight with a knife. Or in this case... if you are going to dish it out you best be prepared to take it as well.

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 09:04 PM
I just have a question... if I get a cut on my figer and it bleeds, and then it heals. Is my finger damaged?
:bang:
temporarily damaged. but that is unintentional. come on shadowmaid, you're smarter than this.

Gosh, this is all useless!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been drawn out for my final round, but I give up. That doesn't mean I agree, but I'm not pressing this anymore. I'd have more luck getting water from a stone.

ShadowMaid
April 12th, 2005, 09:08 PM
:bang:
temporarily damaged. but that is unintentional. come on shadowmaid, you're smarter than this.

Gosh, this is all useless!!!!!!!!!!!

I have been drawn out for my final round, but I give up. That doesn't mean I agree, but I'm not pressing this anymore. I'd have more luck getting water from a stone.

You don't have to get so emotionally angry. I was merely asking a calm question.

I'm just wanted to know your opinion on this.

SOTK
April 12th, 2005, 09:14 PM
SOTK, we're playing with words. Bruises, welts, bleeding is wrong. A red sting is ok; it's like getting hit in the face with a racquetball; it stings a lot for a few minutes and then fades. Yes spankings are supposed to hurt, but not damage. They are supposed to teach.

I think it is you who is playing with words, The Edge. That's been my point with these questions. No offense.



not to judge him, but to question him, to look very carefully at what a man like him says before buying wholeheartedly into it.

I agree! :up: There is nothing wrong with questioning any pastor or religious leader. I have questioned my own Pastor. Before I became a member of my church, I investigated some of the literature the church was using. That's a good thing!

Listen, I have never read anything by Bob Enyart (books), have never heard any of his shows, and have never attended any of his sermons. Basically, I don't know too much about him except from what I've heard by some of his friends here at TOL and a few posts of his. That's it. I'm not sure if I agree with everything I've heard either, but I would never think to pass judgement on him. I don't know enough to do that. In reference to the spanking incident, I haven't had the opportunity to ask him personally about it. Because of this and the fact that I know how our society is regarding us Christians, I don't have the right to judge him or anybody else in his shoes.

My point(s) about all of this is to try to get you to see how easy it is for us Christians to be persecuted when it comes to spanking or just about anything for that matter. We are hated and despised by society. What happened to Bob, could happen to me, to you, and to any Christian.

Mr. 5020
April 12th, 2005, 09:35 PM
You don't have to get so emotionally angry. I was merely asking a calm question.

I'm just wanted to know your opinion on this.Your "calm" questions are typically very sarcastic and insulting.

PureX
April 12th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Edge, why are you still bantering with these people? All you're doing is providing them with an object for their bile. It's like a pack of wild dogs, if you just stop posting they'll start chewing on each other, or they'll go lay down in the corner and fall back asleep.

Delmar
April 12th, 2005, 09:56 PM
Knight, Turbo - never seen that spin, too bad there's no corroborating evidence for it. No response to my questions either, and since Deardelmar seems to have lost interest, I'll make my final point.

IMHO, Enyart was lucky to get off as lightly as he did. If the boyfriend of my estranged wife (or ex-wife) did that to my seven year old son, I'm not sure I would bother calling the cops. I think I would be more inclined to deal with him myself. What do scriptures say about protecting your family ? I havn't lost intrest, I work for a living do you mind!

The Edge
April 12th, 2005, 10:05 PM
Well, I would not go as far as to say Shadowmaid is "insulting" but she is tough ;)

Shadowmaid I am not angry at all. Frustrated at times but not angry at all! I don't hold grudges. Pefect example, I still have my hand extended for Erinmarie, when by this point I could tear her to pieces for not only attacking me but opening me up to be subjected to this contiuous Enyartian torture. ;)

I started reading the Battle Royale 7.....interesting stuff.

Anyway, I guess it's time to stop feeding the beasts.

I predict a Columbia House style post in the near future.....you know those "We want you back" mails they send after you fulfill your commitment and quit the club? "Come back, and we'll give you 15 CD's for the price of 1!"

"Come back, and you can be debated by 10 Enyart supporters for the price of 5!!!!" LOL!!!!!!!! Hey, If I get a friend to join, will you throw in 4 free Enyart supporters!?!??!?!?" LOLOLOL!!!!

Sorry, gotta have some fun. You know I'll be back. I always come back. I must have fallen for the Columbia House trick 9 or 10 times throughout my life, before I had to start paying REAL bills.

It was fun. I enjoyed it actually. Sharpened my skills....my posting skills, my typing skills. They like people with good skills....bowstaff skills, nunchuck skills, etc.

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Your "calm" questions are typically very sarcastic and insulting.
Dude... what is your problem?

Knight
April 12th, 2005, 11:10 PM
[subliminal message] Edge... Ahem... post 180... ahem... :noid: [/subliminal message]

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 05:59 AM
[subliminal message]Knight...Ahem...post 111 in the other thread....ahem....all my previous posts....ahem....[/subliminal message]

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 06:05 AM
There are 1000s of threads. Maybe a link to it would be nice. Thanks!

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 06:15 AM
Edge, why are you still bantering with these people? All you're doing is providing them with an object for their bile. It's like a pack of wild dogs, if you just stop posting they'll start chewing on each other, or they'll go lay down in the corner and fall back asleep.
Did ImpureX say something?

Mr. 5020
April 13th, 2005, 06:36 AM
Dude... what is your problem?
I'm sorry? :confused:

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 06:55 AM
There are 1000s of threads. Maybe a link to it would be nice. Thanks!
He knows which one, dude.

Caille
April 13th, 2005, 07:33 AM
Edge, why are you still bantering with these people? All you're doing is providing them with an object for their bile. It's like a pack of wild dogs, if you just stop posting they'll start chewing on each other, or they'll go lay down in the corner and fall back asleep.


I dunno, it was more fun watching them chew on each other when Sozo was here - he could really get them riled up....

PureX
April 13th, 2005, 07:59 AM
I dunno, it was more fun watching them chew on each other when Sozo was here - he could really get them riled up....Don't get me wrong, I like a good debate as much as the next guy, but this wasn't a debate. This was just a few bullies smelling blood and trying to make a ridiculous altercation escalate.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 08:05 AM
I didn't really watch what happened with Sozo. There seemed to be a problem between him and Zakath though, from what little I saw.

Caille
April 13th, 2005, 08:20 AM
Sorry to burst your bubble but I do not read all the posts on TOL. So I do not know what questions of yours have gone "unanswered" and I am really am not sure what your link is referencing.... so maybe we should just start from scratch eh?


OK - I'll make it easier



Let's just remove the veil of ambiguity and springboard ourselves into the wonderful world of clarity. Fair enough?

Give me an issue that you disagree with.... let's start with just one issue so we can tackle it in the proper way. Deal?


How about this one?
I believe Bob's approach as detailed here http://www.theologyonline.com/forum...ead.php?t=12416 is in error, specifically that it comes very close to violating the ninth commandment



January 30th, 2004, 12:21 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
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There is coloring and then there is coloring

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Enyart takes the art of spin-doctoring to a new level. In spite of his nominal obeisance to Christian norms of honesty, he does not hesitate to use severe exaggeration and outright lies to carry his points. A classic example was over the course of two shows late in 2001. On Dec 28 2001, in a show entitled “Signer Barney Franklin”, starting at 31 minutes into the show, he brings up an incident that occurred a few years prior on one of his radio broadcasts. As he tells it, some elementary students in the Jefferson School district were given an assignment to color an explicit drawing of a naked man’s genitalia. This came to the attention of one of the parents of a student, who passed the picture to Bob. Bob decided to send it to Pat Schroeder, a Colorado congresswoman. He says he initially faxed the picture to her office with a request for her to color it, much as the students were being asked to do. He then tells of a phone call that he got almost immediately from her office asking what was going on.

The exact dialogue from that show is interesting. Starting at 34 minutes and 50 seconds into the show – this is what Bob said:
Quote:
I just sit down in the studio and start to open the show and the phone rings, and it’s some worker at Pat Schroeder’s office, I think his name is Kip. Kip is on the phone, and Kip is really mad. And he wants to know - he is just beside himself – and he wants to know – “Who, who sent this to us, did you” - and you could tell that he – “I just want to, I just want to confirm that you sent this to us.”

And he wants to call the police and charge me with making an obscene phone call to a congresswoman’s office over the FAX lines.

So he was really angry. And he just got the information he wanted, and just before he hung up, I explained where we got the picture. And you could tell that sort of deflated his anger. Because what he thought was pornographic at one moment, that was a crime, being sent from a radio station to a governing official, that was so despicable and obscene and enraged him - and all of a sudden it was being given to girls and boys in the fourth grade, well that is perfectly acceptable.

Kip just in case you are listening out there somewhere in the world, you are a blithering idiot, you are a moron, you are a piece of human waste. What an idiot.

Note the following very specific claims that Bob made:

Kip is really mad

He is just beside himself

He wants to call the police and charge Bob with making an obscene phone call using the FAX

He was really angry

He changed from thinking the picture was vulgar to OK

He is a blithering idiot

He is a moron

He is a piece of human waste

In the next show, on 31 Dec, 2001, titled “CSMAHON at Eathlink.net”, he chooses to actually play the recording of that event. Starting at 1 minute and 30 seconds into that show, he discusses the recording he is about to play.

I strongly recommend you listen to the clip itself. It starts at 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the 31 Dec 2001 show. Listen to both the exact dialogue, and especially the tone of the representative (Kip) from Pat’s office.

Following is the full dialogue from Kip (the representative from Pat’s office), and the dialogue from Bob:
Quote:
BE: Hello, hello

Kip: Hi, are you there?

BE: Yes, this is Bob Enyart, host of Speak Your Mind on KQXI radio. I just, uh, I am on the air right now, and I just got the message that you guys had called in for me.

Kip: I am just calling to confirm, did you in fact send us this fax?

BE: Yes I did, I was wondering if Pat Schroeder could maybe color that in and then call me to chat about it.

Kip: What does that mean - color it in?

BE: Well if she could take like a crayon, or maybe even a neon crayon, and could color it in and she could stay within the lines, and then call in and talk about the experience.

Kip: Ok, that is the purpose for my call, just to clarify and confirm that you sent this.

BE: Ok, could I just ask your name?

Kip: Sure, my name is Kip.

BE: Kip, and just to let you know where we got that, we got that from the Jefferson County School District – they hand that out to the kids I think in 5th grade, and they have them sit in little groups of boys and girls, and color it in together

Kip: The teachers hand this out?

BE: Yes the teachers hand this out, and they have the girls color in that - that is drawing of a guy spread eagled, you can see everything there. And they have the kids sit in groups of boys and girls and color it, and during the course of the class the teacher says the word penis about 20 something times according to the manual. Some of the parents are like up in arms about this, because it looks gross, it looks far beyond what you need to do to teach a kid about sexual reproduction, and I thought Pat Schroeder as a Federal Representative should know what our Federal tax dollars are going for.

Kip: Thanks Bob for letting us know.

Nowhere in the recording does Kip raise his voice. Throughout he sounds very professional, and the most pronounced emotion he shows is slight surprise at finding the picture was being handed out by teachers. He made no threats, no hint that he was going to call the police, no hint of anger in his voice.

Compare the actual dialogue and see how many of the claims Bob made the week before against Kip were true. Really mad? Beside himself? Wants to charge Bob? Angry? Changed his mind about the picture? Blithering idiot? Moron? Human waste?

A lot of these attributes may be applicable, but not to Kip. They belong to the man who levied them and then professes to be a minister of God.

It may be that the incident of the schools issuing inappropriate coloring material for sex education was true, but in light of the blatant misrepresentation of the interaction with Kip, I am certainly not going to blithely think that the story as Bob tells it is free from exaggeration or outright fabrication.




Maybe the best the best thing to do is when you return to TOL start a new thread titled something like....
"Hey Knight you are wrong about such and such, or wrong about so and so."



I'd love to, but as a newbie posting with dial-up (from my folks (freezing !!) basement) I'm embarrassed to admit I can't figure out how to start a new thread. Can't even get the embarrassed smiley to insert without deleting everything I've banged out so far.


Then we can see if it leads us anywhere. :cool:



Currently my main focus is on our "Edgeian" since he is the one attempting to make the most noise but I will gladly entertain you as well.



Knock yourself out - Edge needs no help from me.

Caille
April 13th, 2005, 08:25 AM
:doh: Bob didn't repent of his child abuse because IT WASN'T child abuse!!!

You still don't get it do you?

Spanking your children isn't a crime! Only left wing wacko's think it is a crime and that is the side you have taken.



Who gets to decide whether the line between discipline and abuse has been crossed ? The perpetrator ?

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 10:51 AM
[subliminal message]Knight...Ahem...post 111 in the other thread....ahem....all my previous posts....ahem....[/subliminal message]
So... I take all that time to compose a response and you going to just ignore it???? :nono:

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 10:53 AM
I dunno, it was more fun watching them chew on each other when Sozo was here - he could really get them riled up....
What drug are you on?

Me and Sozo are tight!

I love Sozo. We didn't "chew on each other" over Sozo!

Sozo is in our camp you dimwit! Sozo's problem is he gets too angry and cannot control himself and his language which is why he was ultimately banned (which he desired).

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 10:58 AM
Ok Edge,

Since you want to obfuscate.

Hey Knight, what thread is The edge talking about?

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 11:10 AM
So... I take all that time to compose a response and you going to just ignore it???? :nono:
Happens to me all the time. :yawn:

Actually I didn't ignore it. If I want to say any more I'll say it.


Dr Brumley, it's the "zakath is genuine" thread. My rebuke to Erin is what started this all. Actually, Erin started it because if she didn't attack me out of the blue like she did, then I would never have even had cause to investigate Bob Enyart.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Happens to me all the time. :yawn:

Actually I didn't ignore it. If I want to say any more I'll say it.


Dr Brumley, it's the "zakath is genuine" thread. My rebuke to Erin is what started this all. Actually, Erin started it because if she didn't attack me out of the blue like she did, then I would never have even had cause to investigate Bob Enyart.

You know Edge, it wasn't until you started a thread about Terry Shiavo and how ricidoulous that case became and how she shouldn't live and how far it came that you put yourself on christians radar screen.Then people saw you for who you were. Then when you were called on it, you attempted to duck the issue. It's the same thing now. You don't want to discuss right and wrong thru the lens of scripture. You have a problem being called on your own words. You say don't judge me, but yet you yourself judge Bob Enyart. Maybe you need to find a dictionary and find out what hypocrite means.

AS Knight said, if we, meaning those who share with Bob's views, is in error, we will be happy to to listen to you prove our error, so we can repent. Instead of taking us up on the offer, you again duck the issue and refuse to put your money where your mouth is.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 12:41 PM
You know Edge, it wasn't until you started a thread about Terry Shiavo and how ricidoulous that case became and how she shouldn't live and how far it came that you put yourself on christians radar screen.Then people saw you for who you were. Then when you were called on it, you attempted to duck the issue. It's the same thing now. You don't want to discuss right and wrong thru the lens of scripture. You have a problem being called on your own words. You say don't judge me, but yet you yourself judge Bob Enyart. Maybe you need to find a dictionary and find out what hypocrite means.

AS Knight said, if we, meaning those who share with Bob's views, is in error, we will be happy to to listen to you prove our error, so we can repent. Instead of taking us up on the offer, you again duck the issue and refuse to put your money where your mouth is.

Well, Doc, I don't exactly see you acting through the lens of Scripture.

In the Terri thread, I spoke without research. If you were smart enough to read on, you would find that I later retracted what I said and admitted I had no stance on the issue either way. But you are just wanting to remain on the war path, so you only remember the things I said that you don't like so you can continue in your attempts to use them against me. I'm not falling for it, Doc. You come across as a self righteous, angry man, and I know you probably aren't in real life, but your anger towards me is making yourself look bad. You need to stop slinging insults and whining and crying and start paying closer attention. Just as you accuse me of speaking without knowing, you are posting without reading followups.

Delmar
April 13th, 2005, 02:25 PM
Who gets to decide whether the line between discipline and abuse has been crossed ? The perpetrator ?
Fair question. To start with, it would be my opinion that any one who would claim that all spanking is abuse would not be qualified to make that judgment.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 02:42 PM
Fair question. To start with, it would be my opinion that any one who would claim that all spanking is abuse would not be qualified to make that judgment.
I agree.

I would also say, on the other side, that anyone who says all spanking is ok and it's impossible to go too far is also unqualified.

Delmar
April 13th, 2005, 02:54 PM
I agree.

I would also say, on the other side, that anyone who says all spanking is ok and it's impossible to go too far is also unqualified.
Yup. I don't know too many that would make that case.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Actually I didn't ignore it. If I want to say any more I'll say it.

Ok.

I guess there is no need for me to respond to you anymore is there?

You are kind of rude don't you think ?

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Well, Doc, I don't exactly see you acting through the lens of Scripture.

In the Terri thread, I spoke without research. If you were smart enough to read on, you would find that I later retracted what I said and admitted I had no stance on the issue either way. But you are just wanting to remain on the war path, so you only remember the things I said that you don't like so you can continue in your attempts to use them against me. I'm not falling for it, Doc. You come across as a self righteous, angry man, and I know you probably aren't in real life, but your anger towards me is making yourself look bad. You need to stop slinging insults and whining and crying and start paying closer attention. Just as you accuse me of speaking without knowing, you are posting without reading followups.
Well, thats a blantant fabrication.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 03:15 PM
So is nearly all of what you say about me, Doc.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 03:27 PM
How so? What do I say about you?

That you indeed made false comments regarding Terry?

That you indeed made false comments regarding Bob Enyart?

That you indeed make drive-by postings and when called on it, refuse to answer?

That indeed you judge us for judging, when you do the same thing?

Tell me where I am wrong.

Or could it be the appearance of your so-called devotion to the Edge? You say your not devoted to him, great, I'll take your word for it.

I do know when caught in a pickle jar, you hide cause you don't want to discuss it. You would rather discuss trivial things and stay out of major disputes. Knight has been very good to you and even offered a discussion to what you imply as wrong teaching from the Bible, but instead of discuss it, if your right, we are living a lie so to speak. Shows how much you care about other people's souls.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 03:38 PM
How so? What do I say about you?

That you indeed made false comments regarding Terry?

That you indeed made false comments regarding Bob Enyart?

That you indeed make drive-by postings and when called on it, refuse to answer?

That indeed you judge us for judging, when you do the same thing?

Tell me where I am wrong.

Or could it be the appearance of your so-called devotion to the Edge? You say your not devoted to him, great, I'll take your word for it.

I do know when caught in a pickle jar, you hide cause you don't want to discuss it. You would rather discuss trivial things and stay out of major disputes. Knight has been very good to you and even offered a discussion to what you imply as wrong teaching from the Bible, but instead of discuss it, if your right, we are living a lie so to speak. Shows how much you care about other people's souls.
Knight has been very good to me, but behind the scenes he docs me 75 rep points every chance he gets. I applaud Knight for running this fantastic board. The bottom line is I'm allowed to have my feelings without being forced to debate them. And I choose not to debate for two simple reasons:
1) I just suck at debating; I have not developed the skills for good, tasteful debating style and I'm afraid I would resort to rudeness and insults like Doctor Brumley has
2) I choose not to debate with people that exhibit the same character that I want to restrain myself from exhibiting.

No debate is necessary Doc. And that is because I can actually see truth on both sides. This is an issue based on opinion, and there's nothing you guys can say to make me follow Bob Enyart, and you guys are just going to have to accept that. Doc, this has nothing to do with the destiny of your soul, because I am sure Bob Enyart has the fundamentals of salvation correct. So don't worry about it. You just want to draw me into a formal debate so you can use your tactics to humiliate me more, and I won't subscribe to that.

You continue to fail to pay attention, and would rather put words in my mouth and then accuse me for speaking them. Read, Doctor, read. Read what has been posted. Then think a little bit. I know you can think; you did graduate from medical school if I am not mistaken. Maybe you'll figure it out some day.

Servo
April 13th, 2005, 03:44 PM
This is an issue based on opinion, and there's nothing you guys can say to make me follow Bob Enyart, and you guys are just going to have to accept that.

Nobody here at TOL would do that, that would be plain weird.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Doc,

The character of your next post to me will determine whether I put you on my ignore list or keep listening to what you have to say. Chose your words carefully.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Knight has been very good to me, but behind the scenes he docs me 75 rep points every chance he gets.I do not appreciate you purposefully ignoring my response to you which I invested a certain amount of time into. Which is the very purpose of reputation points, it allows users to show their pleasure or displeasure with the posts made by others here at TOL. For you to blatantly disregard my efforts is just plain rude.


This is an issue based on opinion, and there's nothing you guys can say to make me follow Bob Enyart, and you guys are just going to have to accept that.:rolleyes: Oh please..... Edge.... you are a knucklehead! Do you honestly think anyone here cares if you like Bob Enyart or not???

That isn't even the issue!

The issue is...
Was the spanking Bob gave his stepson actually child abuse? And what are these unknown "other things" things that Bob Enyart teaches that are in error as you suggest? And as it turns out when you finally gave some examples of these "errors" you didn't even have the courtesy to address my response!

You are indeed reaping what you sow.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 04:14 PM
ok ok i'll respond sometime tonight. but be cool and don't hurl insults.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 04:15 PM
ok ok i'll respond sometime tonight. but be cool and don't hurl insults.If the insult fits....

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 04:38 PM
The issue is...
Was the spanking Bob gave his stepson actually child abuse? And what are these unknown "other things" things that Bob Enyart teaches that are in error as you suggest? And as it turns out when you finally gave some examples of these "errors" you didn't even have the courtesy to address my response!
Ok....
The spanking Bob Enyart gave his [not son at the time] was child abuse if it was done out of anger and if he did not explain to the kid what he did wrong. It was child abuse if he indeed broke the skin and made welts that lasted long enough for police to take pictures later and use them as evidence in court. However, I have been unable to find the photographs on the net of the actual injury, so I am afraid I can't provide proof of my own. However, someone obviously thought it was child abuse, and in our country, child abuse is illegal. God tells us in Romans 13 to obey the government, and since Bob broke the law and got caught, he deserved to serve his jail term. So while the Bible says corporal punishment is ok (which I agree with) we are also to obey the government God ordained over us, which has laws protecting children against excessive abuse. I don't believe spanking a child is abuse as long as there's no evidence that the government could possibly use to convict someone. Therefore, it's my opinion that we should use corporal punishment, but to be careful. Therefore, we uphold the Bible, and we obey the government, which is also in the Bible.

I found an article in "Westword" that detailed Bob Enyart thorugh this story. I don't know how reliable this press is because Westword described itself as an alternative newspaper. However this was the most detailed account I could find, and it stated that there was broken skin, several welts, and the belt was even damaged in the beating. The boy's brother called the police. The paper also said that Bob lead people to Christ while in jail....that is to be applauded. The article also says that Bob gleefully makes money at his son's expense. I am not putting complete stock in this paper since it is an alternative paper, but from this we can glean two things....
1) Stephen's brother was concerned enough to call the police, and
2) There was damage to the belt and apparently enough injury to the boy to warrant this investigation which lead to a conviction.

As for what else I disagree with? There's no scriptural support, but I think he focuses way to much on homophobia and I think he should not be advocating overthrow of the US government. While I do agree with you, Knight, that a theological monarchy is the Biblical government of choice, that is not what God as placed over us right now, and we are called by Romans 13 to be in submission to the government that God has ordained over us. We are given the right to vote in the people we like, and since that is part of government we should do that. And we can speak and peacefully protest, but not overthrow. If I am misunderstanding his writings here, let me know. But this is how I feel. I think he should focus more on leading people to Christ and teaching Bible and less on slammnig gays and writing strange essays about overthrowing the government. I see a lot of good in Bob, but I think some of it is misguided.

So Knight, is this affecting your eternal destiny? I don't think so. Are you in serious error? Probably not. You seem to be more focused on theology, and that is good, in my opinion.

Well, I believe this sufficiently covers it. It reponds to your post that I didn't write to earlier. I hope this helps you see where I am coming from.

d

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 05:08 PM
Ok....
The spanking Bob Enyart gave his [not son at the time] was child abuse if it was done out of anger and if he did not explain to the kid what he did wrong.

Bob did this. Yet you still have a problem with it.


It was child abuse if he indeed broke the skin and made welts that lasted long enough for police to take pictures later and use them as evidence in court.

The boys father in question was a policeman. He was called by his other son. He took the photos immediately after the spanking.


However, I have been unable to find the photographs on the net of the actual injury, so I am afraid I can't provide proof of my own.

Because there is no proof except the fact the boys BIOLOGICAL father took the photos immediately after the spanking.


However, someone obviously thought it was child abuse, and in our country, child abuse is illegal.

Yes, the father. God tells us in Romans 13 to obey the government, and since Bob broke the law and got caught, he deserved to serve his jail term.

Got caught doing what? Spamking his soon to be stepson. Plus, it is opinion based on the father. opinion is not law.


So while the Bible says corporal punishment is ok (which I agree with) we are also to obey the government God ordained over us, which has laws protecting children against excessive abuse.

With this line of thought, Hitler told Germany to kill Jews would be ok cause we are following the governments rule.


I don't believe spanking a child is abuse as long as there's no evidence that the government could possibly use to convict someone. Therefore, it's my opinion that we should use corporal punishment, but to be careful. Therefore, we uphold the Bible, and we obey the government, which is also in the Bible.

See above


I found an article in "Westword" that detailed Bob Enyart thorugh this story. I don't know how reliable this press is because Westword described itself as an alternative newspaper. However this was the most detailed account I could find, and it stated that there was broken skin, several welts, and the belt was even damaged in the beating. The boy's brother called the police. The paper also said that Bob lead people to Christ while in jail....that is to be applauded. The article also says that Bob gleefully makes money at his son's expense. I am not putting complete stock in this paper since it is an alternative paper, but from this we can glean two things....
1) Stephen's brother was concerned enough to call the police, and
2) There was damage to the belt and apparently enough injury to the boy to warrant this investigation which lead to a conviction.

Wrong again. Your trust in newspapers is amazing.


As for what else I disagree with? There's no scriptural support, but I think he focuses way to much on homophobia and I think he should not be advocating overthrow of the US government.

He advocates a military overthrow of the government? Link please.


While I do agree with you, Knight, that a theological monarchy is the Biblical government of choice, that is not what God as placed over us right now, and we are called by Romans 13 to be in submission to the government that God has ordained over us.

So God Predestined our government is what your saying?


We are given the right to vote in the people we like, and since that is part of government we should do that. And we can speak and peacefully protest, but not overthrow. If I am misunderstanding his writings here, let me know. But this is how I feel. I think he should focus more on leading people to Christ and teaching Bible and less on slammnig gays and writing strange essays about overthrowing the government. I see a lot of good in Bob, but I think some of it is misguided.

See above


So Knight, is this affecting your eternal destiny? I don't think so. Are you in serious error? Probably not. You seem to be more focused on theology, and that is good, in my opinion.

Well, I believe this sufficiently covers it. It reponds to your post that I didn't write to earlier. I hope this helps you see where I am coming from.

d]

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Ok....
The spanking Bob Enyart gave his [not son at the time] was child abuse if it was done out of anger and if he did not explain to the kid what he did wrong.

Huh?????? You don't think parents get angry at their kids?

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 05:29 PM
DR Brumley

Congratulations for being the first TOLian EVER to be placed on my ignore list. I've been here for over 5 years.

You misread everything I say, you hurl insults and you have a bad attitude. I cannot talk to someone who changes everything I say before responding to it.

Enjoy your time in my cone of silence.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Huh?????? You don't think parents get angry at their kids?
We all do. But we are called to not punish our kids out of anger or provoke them to anger, but bring them up in the admonition of the Lord.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Edge... I appreciate your response... I really do. But it almost seems like you didn't read my last major response to you. I addressed almost every issue that you raised in your last post... so maybe my large response to you fell through the cracks?

It was post #180.

Thanks.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 05:38 PM
didn't fall through the cracks. I addressed it. Sorry it's not complete enough. But it said ALL of what I want to say. It's enough for you to go on.

D

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 05:39 PM
Oh and just so you know.... The Westword is a commie pinko ULTRA left wing paper. It isn't even really a newspaper but more like a tabloid.

Knight
April 13th, 2005, 05:40 PM
didn't fall through the cracks. I addressed it. Sorry it's not complete enough. But it said ALL of what I want to say. It's enough for you to go on.

DOK... but you didn't respond to a single point that I addressed. All you did was re-state what you had already stated which I have already responded to.

Zakath
April 13th, 2005, 05:55 PM
Oh and just so you know.... The Westword is a commie pinko ULTRA left wing paper. It isn't even really a newspaper but more like a tabloid.
Aww, c'mon Knight. Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think. :D

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Im on Edges IGNORE list!!!! Thank God!

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 06:34 PM
We all do. But we are called to not punish our kids out of anger or provoke them to anger, but bring them up in the admonition of the Lord.

You don't think a parent can be angry at their child while admonishing them? Under what circumstances is punishment allowed? Don't you think a parent can be angry at his child and still be fair while doling out punishment?

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 06:38 PM
We all do. But we are called to not punish our kids out of anger or provoke them to anger, but bring them up in the admonition of the Lord.


As a side note, I find it interesting that your idol [as specified by your signature] has a 'rage inside him' while we are discussing anger.

Just seemed noteworthy somehow.......

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 06:39 PM
Still waiting on the link that Bob Enyart supports the military overthrow of the government

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 06:40 PM
Careful Billy, you might join me in Edges ignore list

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 06:54 PM
:shocked:

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 07:20 PM
As a side note, I find it interesting that your idol [as specified by your signature] has a 'rage inside him' while we are discussing anger.

Just seemed noteworthy somehow.......
;)

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 07:26 PM
Nah' I'll keep the Doctor out in the open. I had a feeling he would immediatly begin badmouthing me behind my back just like a Believer should......
I won't give him the satisfaction or the opportunity. I wanted to see how he'd handle the threat, and he failed with perfect predictability. Sad.

Knight, I did respond to your points. And I did not only restate I backed down a tad on the child abuse, because I suspected the Westword might not be entirely trustworthy. That's why I said I wouldn't buy totally into it. And it's the only thing I could find that made the boy's injuries sound so severe.

The truth is, I don't know how severe the beating was. But Bob was convicted, and they must have convicted him for a reason. But this is also the same justice system that aquitted OJ and failed to remove Clinton from office. It's flawed. So perhaps I jumped to too hard a conclusion....I'll give you that. But I will leave you with this thought....I still question the man. And I AM allowed to do that.



And to the doctor, I won't even respond to your post except to say that I never said "military overthrow." This is just another perfect example of how you change my posts to say something that you can easily attack. It makes you look like an idiot.

And I would never put Billybob on my ignore list, because he's a good man and I consider him a friend. One day when he and I almost went at it, he had the heart to PM me and apologize and say some kind words. I have a lot of respect for him for doing that. You should follow his example, because right now I don't see the fruit of the spirit in you.

Edge

Caille
April 13th, 2005, 07:29 PM
What drug are you on?

Me and Sozo are tight!

I love Sozo. We didn't "chew on each other" over Sozo!

Sozo is in our camp you dimwit! Sozo's problem is he gets too angry and cannot control himself and his language which is why he was ultimately banned (which he desired).




I'd love to continue with this, but since it would be against the rules, I'll let it drop.

Lighthouse
April 13th, 2005, 07:37 PM
... I would never put Billybob on my ignore list, because he's a good man and I consider him a friend. One day when he and I almost went at it, he had the heart to PM me and apologize and say some kind words. I have a lot of respect for him for doing that.
Do you realize what you have just done to BillyBob's reputation?

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 07:43 PM
LH,
No, I don't...but I merely complimented him for doing the right thing one day. I don't care about reputation.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:09 PM
Nah' I'll keep the Doctor out in the open. I had a feeling he would immediatly begin badmouthing me behind my back just like a Believer should......
I won't give him the satisfaction or the opportunity. I wanted to see how he'd handle the threat, and he failed with perfect predictability. Sad.

Knight, I did respond to your points. And I did not only restate I backed down a tad on the child abuse, because I suspected the Westword might not be entirely trustworthy. That's why I said I wouldn't buy totally into it. And it's the only thing I could find that made the boy's injuries sound so severe.

The truth is, I don't know how severe the beating was. But Bob was convicted, and they must have convicted him for a reason. But this is also the same justice system that aquitted OJ and failed to remove Clinton from office. It's flawed. So perhaps I jumped to too hard a conclusion....I'll give you that. But I will leave you with this thought....I still question the man. And I AM allowed to do that.



And to the doctor, I won't even respond to your post except to say that I never said "military overthrow." This is just another perfect example of how you change my posts to say something that you can easily attack. It makes you look like an idiot.

And I would never put Billybob on my ignore list, because he's a good man and I consider him a friend. One day when he and I almost went at it, he had the heart to PM me and apologize and say some kind words. I have a lot of respect for him for doing that. You should follow his example, because right now I don't see the fruit of the spirit in you.

Edge


Edge, then how do you suppose an overthrow of the government is going to happen? You know as well as I do, those in power will not give it up voluntarilly.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:18 PM
Nah' I'll keep the Doctor out in the open. I had a feeling he would immediatly begin badmouthing me behind my back just like a Believer should......
I won't give him the satisfaction or the opportunity. I wanted to see how he'd handle the threat, and he failed with perfect predictability. Sad.



Knight, I did respond to your points. And I did not only restate I backed down a tad on the child abuse, because I suspected the Westword might not be entirely trustworthy. That's why I said I wouldn't buy totally into it. And it's the only thing I could find that made the boy's injuries sound so severe.

But Bob was convicted, and they must have convicted him for a reason. But this is also the same justice system that aquitted OJ and failed to remove Clinton from office. It's flawed. So perhaps I jumped to too hard a conclusion....I'll give you that. But I will leave you with this thought....I still question the man. And I AM allowed to do that.

And to the doctor, I won't even respond to your post except to say that I never said "military overthrow." This is just another perfect example of how you change my posts to say something that you can easily attack. It makes you look like an idiot.

And I would never put Billybob on my ignore list, because he's a good man and I consider him a friend. One day when he and I almost went at it, he had the heart to PM me and apologize and say some kind words. I have a lot of respect for him for doing that. You should follow his example, because right now I don't see the fruit of the spirit in you.

Edge

I didn't bad-mouth you. I said thank God you put me on ignore. Then I told Billy he needs to watch what he says, that he may end up on ignore. Those were just facts as presented. And I am STILL waiting for the link to provide AN OVERTHROW of the government. Thats not bad mouthing young pup.

But now I see you are attempting to back track. And thank you at least admitting this;


The truth is, I don't know how severe the beating was.

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 08:19 PM
Edge, then how do you suppose an overthrow of the government is going to happen? You know as well as I do, those in power will not give it up voluntarilly.
There can be a peaceful overthrow

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:23 PM
There can be a peaceful overthrow

And you have a problem with this how?

The Edge
April 13th, 2005, 08:24 PM
if the us government were to crumble on its own, then it is right for a new government to take its place. if it happened to be Bob's, I would submit to it in that case.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:31 PM
if the us government were to crumble on its own, then it is right for a new government to take its place. if it happened to be Bob's, I would submit to it in that case.

Ok, how about our government is so bad, someone has to step in and take control. Or does that mean to you that we should do nothing but be pacifists?

BillyBob
April 13th, 2005, 08:35 PM
if the us government were to crumble on its own, then it is right for a new government to take its place. if it happened to be Bob's, I would submit to it in that case.


Really?

The reason I ask is because I am curious about a person who is submissive to a government simply because it claims authority.

For example, if [I hate to do this] Hitler were to have won WWII and was the 'Ruler' of the US, should every US citizen have submitted to him simply because he became their ruler?


I know it's an extreme analogy, but I beleive its extremism makes my point nicely.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Really?

The reason I ask is because I am curious about a person who is submissive to a government simply because it claims authority.

For example, if [I hate to do this] Hitler were to have won WWII and was the 'Ruler' of the US, should every US citizen have submitted to him simply because he became their ruler?


I know it's an extreme analogy, but I beleive its extremism makes my point nicely.

That gets some green rep points. Good job!

Delmar
April 13th, 2005, 08:40 PM
As for what else I disagree with? There's no scriptural support, but I think he focuses way to much on homophobia and I think he should not be advocating overthrow of the US government.
Bob has never to my knowlage advocated overthrow of the US government. He as a matter of fact states quite plainly the we have NO right to do so.





While I do agree with you, Knight, that a theological monarchy is the Biblical government of choice, that is not what God as placed over us right now, and we are called by Romans 13 to be in submission to the government that God has ordained over us. We are given the right to vote in the people we like, and since that is part of government we should do that. And we can speak and peacefully protest, but not overthrow. If I am misunderstanding his writings here, let me know. But this is how I feel. I think he should focus more on leading people to Christ and teaching Bible and less on slammnig gays and writing strange essays about overthrowing the government. I see a lot of good in Bob, but I think some of it is misguided.

Writing a story about what a just Government would be like is not the same thing as advocating overthrow.

SOTK
April 13th, 2005, 08:45 PM
But this is also the same justice system that aquitted OJ and failed to remove Clinton from office. It's flawed. So perhaps I jumped to too hard a conclusion....I'll give you that.

:thumb:

I'm glad to see you admit to that! That's a big part of what I was trying to point out to you.


But I will leave you with this thought....I still question the man. And I AM allowed to do that.
Edge

There is nothing wrong with questioning, The Edge. :up: You are also entitled to your opinion. If I may point out, I think where you got into trouble with a few folks on TOL is when you went from just stating your opinion to throwing out accusations. As you are probably painfully aware, this caused people to become defensive as well as a little frustrated when it seemed you didn't have a lot of information to back up your accusations. Personally, I think this all could have been avoided if you just stated what you stated above.

drbrumley
April 13th, 2005, 08:47 PM
rep points for SOTK