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Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 08:39 PM
I am disgusted. I am disgusted by the pro life movement. I am disgusted with the Republicans. I am disgusted with our jelly spined Christians who are saying that assisted suicide is alright! I am disgusted with talk show hosts: Hugh Hewit, with Sean Hannity, with Matt Drudge etc. etc. etc.


They hold majority rules and our wicked laws over God's law. I am infuriated. There are not many words to describe my anger.

Terri Schiavo is starving to death and our Republican, jelly spined Christians are saying that Jeb Bush was right not to break the law and take the National Guard and storm the building to give Terri Schiavo nourishment.

Some say that we were keeping her alive by artificial means but all they were doing was giving her food and water, not keeping her alive on an iron lung! And don't you eat? All need to eat.


This country is not going to Hell in a handbasket; it's going to Hell with jet rockets.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I'm sorry I can't make you feel better, Wamba. I know how you feel, and all I can offer is a soda. What kind would you like?

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 08:58 PM
I'm sorry I can't make you feel better, Wamba. I know how you feel, and all I can offer is a soda. What kind would you like?


:) thanks. I'll take a coke.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 08:59 PM
I am disgusted. I am disgusted by the pro life movement. I am disgusted with the Republicans. I am disgusted with our jelly spined Christians who are saying that assisted suicide is alright! I am disgusted with talk show hosts: Hugh Hewit, with Sean Hannity, with Matt Drudge etc. etc. etc.


They hold magority rules and our wicked laws over God's law. I am infuriated. There are not many words to describe my anger.

Terri Schiavo is starving to death and our Republican, jelly spined Christians are saying that Jeb Bush was right not to break the law and take the National Guard and storm the building to give Terri Schiavo nourishment.

Some say that we were keeping her alive by artificial means but all they were doing was giving her food and water, not keeping her alive on an iron lung! And don't you eat? All need to eat.


This country is not going to Hell in a handbasket; it's going to Hell with jet rockets.And what should we do, big fella? What are you doing?

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:00 PM
And what should we do, big fella? What are you doing?

I think the better question for you to ask is, "What is Mr 5020 doing?"

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:01 PM
And what should we do, big fella? What are you doing?

What do you think we should do?! Let her dehydrate? No! Give her food and water!

And if I had money I would fly to Florida and try to get her water.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:01 PM
:) thanks. I'll take a coke.

:thumb:

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:01 PM
I think the better question for you to ask is, "What is Mr 5020 doing?"Mr. 5020 is looking up. He knows there is nothing he can do about this situation that he hasn't already done.

See "Action Items" at www.terrisfight.org.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:02 PM
What do you think we should do?! Let her dehydrate? No! Give her food and water!

And if I had money I would fly to Florida and try to get her water.So you're not going to do anything. Got it.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:03 PM
So you're not going to do anything. Got it.

Dude! He didn't say that! He's doing all he can!

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Mr. 5020 is looking up. He knows there is nothing he can do about this situation that he hasn't already done.

See "Action Items" at www.terrisfight.org.

Would you stand up for the truth?

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:05 PM
So you're not going to do anything. Got it.



Excuse me? I at least am saying I'm pro life. Unlike what you seem to be saying.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:08 PM
Excuse me? I at least am saying I'm pro life. Unlike what you seem to be saying.I am pro-life. Extremely pro-life. I'll stand up for truth in any way I can, and I've gotten in many arguments in the extremely liberal area I live in about the Terri case. I was just stating that there is nothing that the people you are yelling at can do.

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:09 PM
I am pro-life. Extremely pro-life. I'll stand up for truth in any way I can, and I've gotten in many arguments in the extremely liberal area I live in about the Terri case. I was just stating that there is nothing that the people you are yelling at can do.

The people here or people in power?

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:10 PM
The people here or people in power?The people here.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:12 PM
I am pro-life. Extremely pro-life. I'll stand up for truth in any way I can, and I've gotten in many arguments in the extremely liberal area I live in about the Terri case. I was just stating that there is nothing that the people you are yelling at can do.



For one I was not yelling, no words were capitalized.

I was stating what is right, telling people to think, just think. God's laws are above ours and sometimes man's law needs to be broken to stay in line with God's laws.

Poly
March 28th, 2005, 09:13 PM
I didn't think he was yelling but more like venting. Sometimes situations like this get to you so much that you gotta vent.

Nineveh
March 28th, 2005, 09:14 PM
Wamba...

Check out Lucky's advice (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13059) :)

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:14 PM
I didn't think he was yelling but more like venting. Sometimes situations like this get to you so much that you gotta vent.


Right, venting

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:14 PM
The people here.

I guess we can't do much more than attempt to give her water but I appreciated his post because it basically summed up my feelings. People today are too concerned with comfort, even if others are being murdered, to do anything other than sigh patiently and say very piously,"It's in God's hands".

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:16 PM
Wamba...

Check out Lucky's advice (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13059) :)


:chuckle:

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:23 PM
For one I was not yelling, no words were capitalized.Sorry, I misunderstood the use of the bold, italics, and exclamation points.

I was stating what is right, telling people to think, just think. God's laws are above ours and sometimes man's law needs to be broken to stay in line with God's laws.Does the Bible teach a Good Samaritan Law™? In other words, "Thou shalt not murder, and thou must break the law of the land to stop murder at all costs."

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:26 PM
Does the Bible teach a Good Samaritan Law™? In other words, "Thou shalt not murder, and thou must break the law of the land to stop murder at all costs."
That can go under "Love your neighbor" and "Obey God rather than men".

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood the use of the bold, italics, and exclamation points.
Does the Bible teach a Good Samaritan Law™? In other words, "Thou shalt not murder, and thou must break the law of the land to stop murder at all costs."



So if the government was going to kill your whole family, and they had some kind ofauthorization you wouldn't take up arms and fight?

logos_x
March 28th, 2005, 09:29 PM
I'm disgusted, too.
I was taken in by some of the rhetoric being spewed...that Terri Schiavo was in a vegetative state and all that was being accomplished was prolonging her misery and causing undue strain on her husband...etc., etc.,
And it's all bunk.
It is disgusting...because it's all a lie. Terri isn't vegetative, and near as I can see through all the lies, wants to live...in spite of what we have been lead to think.
The "laws" that the President and Governor Bush are so concerned about not violating don't apply. There is no law that applies, other than doing what is right, and that is feeding Terri.

But...the question remains. What can we do, if the courts won't allow anything to be done. Go in with a team of like-minded doctors and kidnap her? That is the only option left if the court order is not issued to replace the feeding tube.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:30 PM
I'm disgusted, too.
I was taken in by some of the rhetoric being spewed...that Terri Schiavo was in a vegetative state and all that was bing acomplished was prolonging her misery and causing undue strain on her husband...etc., etc.,
And it's all bunk.
It is disgusting...because it's all a lie. Terri isn't vegetative, and near as I can see through all the lies, wants to live...in spite of what we have been lead to think.
The "laws" that the Pesident and Govenor Bush are so concerned in not violating don't apply. There is no law that applies, other than doing what is right, and that is feeding Terri.

But...the question remains. What can we do, if the courts won't allow anything to be done. Go in with a team of like-minded doctors and kidnap her? That is the only option left if the court order is not issued to replace the feeding tube.Exactly. Remember Wamba, I agree with you about how horrible this is. All I asked you is what you thought we should do.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:31 PM
So if the government was going to kill your whole family, and they had some kind ofauthorization you wouldn't take up arms and fight?I do not contain the imaginative skills to put myself in that situation.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Exactly. Remember Wamba, I agree with you about how horrible this is. All I asked you is what you thought we should do.

I answered. Feed her. Give her water. It's as simple as that.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:33 PM
I do not contain the imaginative skills to put myself in that situation.


It's not hard.

Poly
March 28th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood the use of the bold, italics, and exclamation points.
Does the Bible teach a Good Samaritan Law™? In other words, "Thou shalt not murder, and thou must break the law of the land to stop murder at all costs."

Pharoah ordered that the midwives kill all male boys in Egypt that were born (Exodus 1:15-22) but they didn't and God was pleased.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:33 PM
I answered. Feed her. Give her water. It's as simple as that.I think a few people tried that already. They're in jail now.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:34 PM
It's not hard.Perhaps you're more imaginative than I am.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:35 PM
I think a few people tried that already. They're in jail now.


I don't belive so... Doug McBurney for example. He was there for a few hours.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:35 PM
Pharoah ordered that the midwives kill all male boys in Egypt that were born (Exodus 1:15-22) but they didn't and God was pleased.True, but it didn't quite answer the question. I asked if there was a Good Samaritan Law™ in the Bible.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Perhaps you're more imaginative than I am.


Perhaps.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:36 PM
I don't belive so... Doug McBurney for example. He was there for a few hours.I believe you missed my point. You are telling us that we should do something that cannot be done.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Perhaps you're more imaginative than I am.

You can't imagine yourself defending your family?

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:36 PM
I think a few people tried that already. They're in jail now.

Most of that was purely symbolic. Imagine if even one hundred Christians just decided to risk it go all at the same time. What would the police do? Shoot them all?

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:37 PM
Perhaps.What I would give for some imagination or creativity sometimes.

:sigh:

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:37 PM
True, but it didn't quite answer the question. I asked if there was a Good Samaritan Law™ in the Bible.


I'm not quite sure what you mean... Jesus in the parable was saying love your neighbor. That was in the Bible.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:37 PM
I believe you missed my point. You are telling us that we should do something that cannot be done.

So it's the right thing to throw up our hands and give up?

Poly
March 28th, 2005, 09:37 PM
True, but it didn't quite answer the question. I asked if there was a Good Samaritan Law™ in the Bible.

I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you mean are we required to do all we can to save her and that we'll suffer some kind of consequence if we don't?

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:38 PM
You can't imagine yourself defending your family?I was saying that the situation is so mind-blowing that sitting calmly in my room, I have no idea how I would react. I suppose it would vary from situation to situation.

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:38 PM
True, but it didn't quite answer the question. I asked if there was a Good Samaritan Law™ in the Bible.


That can go under "Love your neighbor" and "Obey God rather than men".

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:38 PM
I believe you missed my point. You are telling us that we should do something that cannot be done.



It's quite possible. if everyone outside of the hospital rushed the building with water, she would get some.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:39 PM
I was saying that the situation is so mind-blowing that sitting calmly in my room, I have no idea how I would react. I suppose it would vary from situation to situation.

Just making that clear. :)

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:40 PM
I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you mean are we required to do all we can to save her and that we'll suffer some kind of consequence if we don't?
There's quite a few questions coming my way. I'm trying to answer them all. When I clicked 'Reply' on this post, by the time it went to the Reply screen, there were 2 more posts directed at me.

I'm asking if it would be sinful, I guess.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:40 PM
It's quite possible. if everyone outside of the hospital rushed the building with water, she would get some.She can't swallow.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:41 PM
She can't swallow.



A feeding tube would be used.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:42 PM
A feeding tube would be used.So, the people outside (and some like-minded doctors), would rush through and insert the feeding tube, for what purpose? Police would be called to the scene, and the feeding tube would be removed again.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:44 PM
So, the people outside (and some like-minded doctors), would rush through and insert the feeding tube, for what purpose? Police would be called to the scene, and the feeding tube would be removed again.

So it's the right thing to just give up, yes?

BTW, this is just a yes or no question.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:45 PM
So, the people outside (and some like-minded doctors), would rush through and insert the feeding tube, for what purpose? Police would be called to the scene, and the feeding tube would be removed again.


The purpose would be to get her water. Although we may be stopped, we would have to try. What is the point of doing it if it will be taken right back out? It would be the right thing to do.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:48 PM
The purpose would be to get her water. Although we may be stopped, we would have to try. What is the point of doing it if it will be taken right back out? It would be the right thing to do.So, where is the line drawn? If we must break laws to "love our neighbor," should we start shooting judges, abortionists, and (hopefully) Hillary Clinton. You would make her nearly starve to death, and then make her go through the whole process again. That just sounds like torture.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:49 PM
So it's the right thing to just give up, yes?

BTW, this is just a yes or no question.No.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:50 PM
So, where is the line drawn? If we must break laws to "love our neighbor," should we start shooting judges, abortionists, and (hopefully) Hillary Clinton. You would make her nearly starve to death, and then make her go through the whole process again. That just sounds like torture.

I realize this is fellowship week, and I don't want to seem overly unfellowship-like but, so we should just let her starve and not do anything?

And, no we are not going to break love you neighbor... we are loving out neighbor by standing up for Terri.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 09:51 PM
No.

So you're trying to find out where the line is drawn, right?

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:53 PM
Oh, and on where to draw the line, we should not take execution into our own hands.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:53 PM
I realize this is fellowship week, and I don't want to seem overly unfellowship-like but, so we should just let her starve and not do anything?What should we do? Your suggestions are at best, unrealistic; at worst, torture. Many people are doing the only things they can do: pray (if they believe in such a thing), protest, and I have sent countless e-mails and made 2 phone calls to Jeb Bush's office.

Poly
March 28th, 2005, 09:53 PM
There's quite a few questions coming my way. I'm trying to answer them all. When I clicked 'Reply' on this post, by the time it went to the Reply screen, there were 2 more posts directed at me.

I'm asking if it would be sinful, I guess.

To refuse somebody water who is in desperate need of it to save his/her life would be wrong if it's within our power to get it to them. We've already seen that those who are attempting to get her water at this point are having no success and it wouldn't be a sin if one didn't try. But it's so understanding to see somebody so moved, thinking "I'm going to get water to her if it kills me". Sometimes we want the right thing done so bad we can't see anything else but wanting desperately to accomplish it.

I have to be honest and say that Wamba's suggestion of a huge group bombarding has entered my mind as well. I don't have the resources to get down there but if I knew for sure that there was going to be a massive take over and that the outcome was that she would be very likely to get the nourishment to save her life, I would be awfully tempted to find a way. I'm sure there's a lot of sincere wishful thinking going on right now with a lot of people.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:54 PM
So you're trying to find out where the line is drawn, right?Exactly, though Wamba had a good answer. But why just execution? Is that the only thing we shouldn't take into our hands?

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:54 PM
To refuse somebody water who is in desperate need of it to save his/her life would be wrong if it's within our power to do this. We've already seen that those who are attempting to get her water at this point are having no success and it wouldn't be a sin if one didn't try. But it's so understanding to see somebody so moved, thinking "I'm going to get water to her if it kills me". Sometimes we want the right thing done so bad we can't see anything else but wanting desperately to accomplish it.

I have to be honest and say that Wamba's suggestion of a huge group bombarding has entered my mind as well. I don't have the resources to get down there but if I knew for sure that there was going to be a massive take over and that the outcome was that she would be very likely to get the nourishment to save her life, I would be awfully tempted to find a way. A lot of wishful thinking going on right now with a lot of people.:thumb: Good post.

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 09:56 PM
So, where is the line drawn? If we must break laws to "love our neighbor," should we start shooting judges, abortionists, and (hopefully) Hillary Clinton. You would make her nearly starve to death, and then make her go through the whole process again. That just sounds like torture.

No, we don't kill people if we do not have the proper authority or authorization because that power is not delegated to everyone. Everyone does have the authorization to intervene in a situation where an innocent person is being harmed or in this case, murdered even if it becomes necessary to kill the criminal.

SOTK
March 28th, 2005, 09:57 PM
I think in some unfortunate and wrong situations like this all we can do is be outspoken and pray. Good intentions can sometimes make matters worse and not better.

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 09:57 PM
No, we don't kill people if we do not have the proper authority or authorization because that power is not delegated to everyone. Everyone does have the authorization to intervene in a situation where an innocent person is being harmed or in this case, murdered even if it becomes necessary to kill the criminal.


Exactly

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:57 PM
No, we don't kill people if we do not have the proper authority or authorization because that power is not delegated to everyone. Everyone does have the authorization to intervene in a situation where an innocent person is being harmed or in this case, murdered even if it becomes necessary to kill the criminal.Like abortionists?

Crow
March 28th, 2005, 09:58 PM
You know, instead of being frustrated, use the opportunity that this sad case provides. In the last few nights at work it has been a hot topic of discussion. It was interesting to see that several people who originally were OK with turning off Terri's feeding have now switched sides. If nothing else, use what you've seen here to help you get some advance directives into writing. Don't let the courts decide whether or not you are worthy of hydration and nourishment.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 09:58 PM
I think in some unfortunate and wrong situations like this all we can do is be outspoken and pray. Good intentions can sometimes make matters worse and not better.Exactly.

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 10:00 PM
Like abortionists?

I think we would be authorized to intervene or even kill an abortionist if he is attempting to kill a child just as we would to protect a child from anyone else. I don't think that we have the right to simply kill him whenever we want just as we aren't authorized to kill someone who will eventually kill an innocent person. It all depends on the situation and the escalation of force.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 10:02 PM
I think we would be authorized to intervene or even kill an abortionist if he is attempting to kill a child just as we would to protect a child from anyone else. I don't think that we have the right to simply kill him whenever we want just as we aren't authorized to kill someone who will eventually kill an innocent person. It all depends on the situation and the escalation of force.So, to make sure I understand you, if a doctor down the street was about to perform an abortion, it would be okay for me to walk in and shoot him in the head, am I correct?

P.S. I am done for tonight. I average 3 posts per day, and I've quadrupled that in this thread alone. I'm all TOL'd out (though if you feel like yelling at me, I am Mister5020 on AIM and Mr_5020 on YIM, which I should still be logged into for a while.

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 10:06 PM
So, to make sure I understand you, if a doctor down the street was about to perform an abortion, it would be okay for me to walk in and shoot him in the head, am I correct?

P.S. I am done for tonight. I average 3 posts per day, and I've quadrupled that in this thread alone. I'm all TOL'd out.

You have the right to try to stop him. If it escalates to the point where violence is merited than yes, you may fire when ready. You don't get to kill him if he's a med student considering abortion as a career or if he is to perform an abortion tomorrow or sometime later. Similarly, you can kill some who is breaking into your home to kill you but you don't get to kill them if they say, "I'm going to kill you tomorrow".

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 10:09 PM
You can always make a scene, get thrown in jail, and all the time listen to Terri's parents beseech you to stop...:rolleyes:

Wamba
March 28th, 2005, 10:18 PM
You can always make a scene, get thrown in jail, and all the time listen to Terri's parents beseech you to stop...:rolleyes:

She needs water. So I would say all of those things are worth it. And the Schindlers need to realize that the people who try to give her water are admirable.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 10:29 PM
You have the right to try to stop him. If it escalates to the point where violence is merited than yes, you may fire when ready.That would be taking execution into your own hands, wouldn't it?

She needs water. So I would say all of those things are worth it. And the Schindlers need to realize that the people who try to give her water are admirable.No they're not.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 10:37 PM
No they're not.

Wait... didn't you say it's wrong to just give up? So you don't think it's right to try and help her?

Imrahil
March 28th, 2005, 10:40 PM
That would be taking execution into your own hands, wouldn't it?


That first quote was actually by me. No, it's not executing someone, it's saving an innocent life just as self-defence is. Execution is killing someone for a crime. Self-defence (or the defence of others) is different because it is simply defending an innocent life from an unlawful killing.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 10:54 PM
Wait... didn't you say it's wrong to just give up? So you don't think it's right to try and help her?Yes, in ways that are actually beneficial.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 11:39 PM
Yes, in ways that are actually beneficial.

What ways do you consider beneficial?

Do you think the cops would benefit from passive activity? It's not just about Terri, it's about right and wrong.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:32 AM
What ways do you consider beneficial?
What should we do? Your suggestions are at best, unrealistic; at worst, torture. Many people are doing the only things they can do: pray (if they believe in such a thing), protest, and I have sent countless e-mails and made 2 phone calls to Jeb Bush's office.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 08:59 AM
Do you think the cops would benefit from passive activity? It's not just about Terri, it's about right and wrong.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:03 AM
I didn't reply because I didn't understand your question.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 09:06 AM
I didn't reply because I didn't understand your question.

You talked about ways that are beneficial. Well, is it only ways that are beneficial to Terri? This isn't just about Terri anymore. We're trying to show everyone the truth. Unless the cops get it shoved in their face, they're not going to realize the Nazi's they've become. Why don't we just stop that and let them go on thinking it's alright to kill her?

Does that make sense for you?

Wamba
March 29th, 2005, 10:15 AM
bump

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:22 AM
You talked about ways that are beneficial. Well, is it only ways that are beneficial to Terri? This isn't just about Terri anymore. We're trying to show everyone the truth. Unless the cops get it shoved in their face, they're not going to realize the Nazi's they've become. Why don't we just stop that and let them go on thinking it's alright to kill her?

Does that make sense for you?The cops may very well agree with you and me. They are doing their job. Just like the doctors and nurses did when they removed the feeding tube. Do you know for a fact that those police officers want Terri to die. I know that my uncles (all of which are police officers) have had to do tons of things they did not feel was right, but it was their job.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:31 AM
The cops may very well agree with you and me. They are doing their job. Just like the doctors and nurses did when they removed the feeding tube. Do you know for a fact that those police officers want Terri to die. I know that my uncles (all of which are police officers) have had to do tons of things they did not feel was right, but it was their job. They might try reasessing their jobs.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:34 AM
They might try reasessing their jobs.Ok, so who would do their jobs. I would have to say the every police officer I've talked to (and there are many) on the local force here, object to one thing they have to do every day. So, perhaps they should all quit, right?

Nineveh
March 29th, 2005, 10:39 AM
"They are doing their job."

That sounds a lot like, "I was just following orders"...

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:41 AM
"They are doing their job."

That sounds a lot like, "I was just following orders"...Keep in mind, the police officers didn't remove the feeding tube, nor are they pointing their guns at Terri. They are simply enforcing the law that someone else made.

Nineveh
March 29th, 2005, 10:43 AM
Isn't that called abetting?

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Keep in mind, the police officers didn't remove the feeding tube, nor are they pointing their guns at Terri. They are simply enforcing the law that someone else made. Just like all the Nazis who were "just following orders". They were equally responsible.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Isn't that called abetting?No. Abetting is defined as "to encourage, support, or approve of."

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:48 AM
Just like all the Nazis who were "just following orders". They were equally responsible.Those Nazis were pulling the triggers. These are not.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:52 AM
Those Nazis were pulling the triggers. These are not.
Not all of them. While their comrades murdered the women and infants upstars, the Nazis guarding the door didn't do a thing. Compare that to: While the Doctors inside starved Terri, the Policemen outside didn't do a thing. In fact they are going so far as to prevent others from doing a thing either.
As I said. They should think about the worthyness of their carreers.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:53 AM
Not all of them. While their comrades murdered the women and infants upstars, the Nazis guarding the door didn't do a thing. Compare that to: While the Doctors inside starved Terri, the Policemen outside didn't do a thing. In fact they are going so far as to prevent others from doing a thing either.
As I said. They should think about the worthyness of their carreers.Like I said, when they all quit, who will do their jobs?

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Like I said, when they all quit, who will do their jobs?

If you had lived in the 1940's you might have said::

Like I said, when they all the Nazis quit, who will do their jobs?
Maybe they should stop abetting murderers.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 11:08 AM
If you had lived in the 1940's you might have said::

Maybe they should stop abetting murderers.You're being an idiot. Comparing these police officers to the Nazi's is stupid and, as Zakath said, "intellectually lazy." Police officers do more than guard that hospice. Remember the praise we were giving them when they stormed into the WTC?

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Mr. 5020 wrote:

They are doing their job.

You're being an idiot.
You don't see the parallel between Nazi guards actively protecting murderers "just doing their job" and the police actively protecting a murder "just doing their job"? You've got to be as dense as a hunk of granite!

BTW, when the police went into the WTC, where they trying to stop people from stopping a murder? or where they saving people that were being murdered?

Poly
March 29th, 2005, 11:21 AM
You've got to be as dense as a hunk of granite!




:crackup:

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 11:34 AM
You're being an idiot. I'm being an idiot by saying that these police officers are abetting and defending the muder of an innocent human? Some logic.


Comparing these police officers to the Nazi's is stupid They're doing just about the same thing.
As Zakath said, "intellectually lazy." Oh great now he's getting quotes from Zakath... :doh:
Thus Sayeth the Lord Zakath... But wait you didn't say that :rolleyes:
Remember the praise we were giving them when they stormed into the WTC? But you would say "they were just doing what they were supposed to do".


"Let the Clone Army be initialized...."

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 11:37 AM
But you would say "they were just doing what they were supposed to do". Do you believe that every single NYPD officer wanted to run into that burning building?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 11:39 AM
You don't see the parallel between Nazi guards actively protecting murderers "just doing their job" and the police actively protecting a murder "just doing their job"?Who is the murderer they are protecting? The government and the family have BOTH asked the police to stop people from coming inside.

You've got to be as dense as a hunk of granite!:chuckle:

BTW, when the police went into the WTC, where they trying to stop people from stopping a murder? or where they saving people that were being murdered?They were trying to save people who were being murdered.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Do you believe that every single NYPD officer wanted to run into that burning building?
No. Not every police officer wants to defend the Hospice either. Not every Nazi wanted to kill jews. And if they personally did not pull the trigger, they are still just as guilty.

"I was just obeying orders." That didn't fly at the Nuremburg Trials, It shouldn't fly here.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 11:46 AM
No. Not every police officer wants to defend the Hospice either. Not every Nazi wanted to kill jews. And if they personally did not pull the trigger, they are still just as guilty.

"I was just obeying orders." That didn't fly at the Nuremburg Trials, It shouldn't fly here.Not much of a comparison there. The police officers are enforcing the wishes of the family, not just the government.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Not much of a comparison there. The police officers are enforcing the wishes of the family, not just the government. The wishes of the family don't matter. God's wishes matter. If Terri had left a written directive it still wouldn't matter. She should still live whether she wants to or not. That's why suicide is against God's law.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 11:59 AM
The wishes of the family don't matter. God's wishes matter. If Terri had left a written directive it still wouldn't matter. She should still live whether she wants to or not. That's why suicide is against God's law.It is not suicide if you're already dying and you let it happen. Is refusing chemotherapy suicide? As per a popular pastor that is often quoted here, she should have just died when she collapsed on the floor in her home, as she should not have been kept alive by life support.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 12:08 PM
Who is the murderer they are protecting? The government and the family have BOTH asked the police to stop people from coming inside.
You are as dense as granite. I guess we can call you "chip off the 'ol granite". Protecting someone who is in the process of being murdered, and protecting a murderer are the same thing. You don't see it, do you?


They were trying to save people who were being murdered.
So you see the difference between protecting people being murdered and saving people being murdered? If you do, you'll understand why the different sets of cops get different treatment.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 12:14 PM
It is not suicide if you're already dying and you let it happen. Terri is not dying.

As per a popular pastor that is often quoted here, she should have just died when she collapsed on the floor in her home, as she should not have been kept alive by life support. No. You've misunderstood the message. When you are old, sick, and feeble, and dying of old age, a terminal illness, injuries, and the best you can do is give them another month or so, you have no obligation to keep that person alive on a ventilator. Or is you are 50 and your heart stops you have no family and you have advanced heart diease you have no obligation to give CPR and keep him alive for another 6mo's until his heart blows. (these are just examples and don't HAVE to happen this exact way for the principle to be understood)

However a 40 yo mom who is seriously injured in a car crash and must be rushed to the hospital to live is good. You shouldn't just let her die. Or in Terri's case: an eating disorder that leaves you unconscious and not breathing, should be saved, whether she is able to continue a normal life or be a vegetable, you still have the obligation to rescue that person.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 12:14 PM
It is not suicide if you're already dying and you let it happen. Is refusing chemotherapy suicide? As per a popular pastor that is often quoted here, she should have just died when she collapsed on the floor in her home, as she should not have been kept alive by life support.
Again, displaying your granite-like properties. She wasn't already dying. Food and water isn't medical treatment anymore than your lunch is medical treatment. Chemotherapy is medical treatment. The difference between a terminal patient being allowed to die, and treating a medical emergency I'm sure is far outside of your willful ignorance to comprehend.

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 12:24 PM
As per a popular pastor that is often quoted here, she should have just died when she collapsed on the floor in her home, as she should not have been kept alive by life support.
Where do you get that idea? Why didn't you quote the "often quoted" pastor? Frankly, I'm disappointed and surprised at you, Mr. 5020.

Of course we can’t always determine immediately the extent of damage, and if we don’t revive someone who can perhaps fully recover over time, then the default position is that they should die because of an unhealthy bias against revival. From what you’ve written, I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone, but not wrong to let a dying man die. However, I’d like to try to pull you further to the side of erring on the side of life even in those precious moments when life-saving actions must be taken.

Quoted from this post (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=702123&postcount=34).

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 01:33 PM
Mr. 5020, would you give a dying man/woman one last drink of water? If she's really dying, why hold water from her?

Terri's blood will be on the police mens hands, because they are allowing an innocent life to be taken. They're "just doing their jobs," and the consequence is the blood of the innocent.

You are saying that it's okay for the Terri's blood to be on their hands.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Mr. 5020, would you give a dying man/woman one last drink of water? If she's really dying, why hold water from her?Because she cannot swallow?

Nineveh
March 29th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Frankly, I'm disappointed and surprised at you, Mr. 5020.

I concur.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Because she cannot swallow?

That is not a relevant reason to hold water from her if she's really dying. Use a tube if need be.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 02:54 PM
That is not a relevant reason to hold water from her if she's really dying. Use a tube if need be.... which would violate the standing order of the court.

So we've gone full circle and the woman dies while your deity, and his followers, appear powerless to do anything but gripe on web forums and try to garner a few moments of television coverage...

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 02:57 PM
... which would violate the standing order of the court.

So we've gone full circle and the woman dies while your deity, and his followers, appear powerless to do anything but gripe on web forums and try to garner a few moments of television coverage...

You want to know something, Zakath? Perhaps you don't, but I'm going to tell you that you can go ahead and think all we want is to yell and scream and get the spotlight. At least I know it isn't the true reason. You've been told that's not what we want, and it's true, even if you don't want to believe it. I'm not going to force it upon you.

Gods laws are what counts, not mans court laws.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 03:01 PM
You want to know something, Zakath? Probably not, but I think you're going to tell me anyway, right?


Perhaps you don't, but I'm going to tell you that you can go ahead and think all we want is to yell and scream and get the spotlight.I already have. The actions of you and your heroes demonstrate the truth of my comments...


At least I know it isn't the true reason. You've been told that's not what we want, and it's true, even if you don't want to believe it.Talk is cheap. Show me...


Gods laws are what counts, not mans court laws.But in this case, puny human law will prevail over the alleged "laws" of your deity.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 03:07 PM
Probably not, but I think you're going to tell me anyway, right?

I already have. The actions of you and your heroes demonstrate the truth of my comments...

Now, you can go ahead and think that. I know a lot of other people probably view it as such.


Talk is cheap. Show me...

I doubt you would believe me then.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 03:09 PM
Now, you can go ahead and think that.I will.


I know a lot of other people probably view it as such.So do I.


I doubt you would believe me then.So you've got nothing but talk... :rolleyes:

Why am I not surprised? :ha:

Wamba
March 29th, 2005, 03:16 PM
I will.

So do I.

So you've got nothing but talk... :rolleyes:

Why am I not surprised? :ha:

In honor of Felloeship week I will be as "nice" as possible. Your ideas are foolish and mocking of God. On Judgement Day you will stand before God and be accountable for all of the mocking and wicked things you said here. Have a geat day :e4e:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 03:19 PM
In honor of Felloeship week I will be as "nice" as possible.
How kind of you.


Your ideas are foolish and mocking of God.Only in the opinion of a religionist.


On Judgement Day you will stand before God and be accountable for all of the mocking and wicked things you said here. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen. :)


Have a geat day :e4e:And you, as well. :D

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Because she cannot swallow?
Actually, she can. The lack of spit down her chin is evidence that she can learn to eat.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 06:25 PM
Talking to Zakath:

On Judgement Day you will stand before God and be accountable for all of the mocking and wicked things you said here.
And you'll be thrown into hell forever and you'll get exactly what you want: life without God. And they won't have alcohol, weed, and wild parties in hell.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 06:38 PM
No. Abetting is defined as "to encourage, support, or approve of." So it is abetting. They're obviously supporting it.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 06:56 PM
Where do you get that idea? Why didn't you quote the "often quoted" pastor?Because I had read it, but couldn't find it.

Frankly, I'm disappointed and surprised at you, Mr. 5020.:( That does sadden me, but I'm sure I'll be alright.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 06:58 PM
Mr. 5020, would you give a dying man/woman one last drink of water? If she's really dying, why hold water from her?Yes, I would - if it was at all possible.

Terri's blood will be on the police mens hands, because they are allowing an innocent life to be taken. They're "just doing their jobs," and the consequence is the blood of the innocent.I guess it is on your hands, my hands, and every Christian's hands (other than Doug McBurney, of course) since we have done nothing. How do we know that those police officers aren't doing everything within their legal power to stop what is happening. I know that I have.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 07:01 PM
Because I had read it, but couldn't find it.

Here it is:


Pro-life community just switched positions; it now supports assisted suicide!

You blinked, you missed it. The pro-life community just switched positions; it now supports assisted suicide! In their vital fight to save Florida’s Terri Schiavo from being starved to death by judicial decree, they foolishly hinged their position on the absence of a “written directive.” If the Hemlock Society had tried to pass a federal law legitimizing assisted suicide, pro-lifers would have stopped them. But pro-life leaders have so often compromised on “Thou shall not murder,” they no longer realize when they’re making concessions. They tried desperately to pass the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act which, for the first time ever in federal law, would have legitimized state assisted suicide laws permitting “the withdrawal of food or fluids” simply with “a written advance directive valid under applicable law.” Morality does not require ventilating and pumping fluids through a virtual corpse that has no brain activity, but starving someone to death is wrong. With this development, the pro-life movement would have people looking to “pull the plug,” and when finding no plug, go ahead and assist in suicide by starvation because of a “written directive.” And now that even pro-lifers are sliding down the slippery slope, when the culture of death wants to prevent the suffering of starvation and administer a mercy-killing lethal injection, who will be left to argue?
Pastor Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church .org

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Here it is:Thank you.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:16 PM
I guess it is on your hands, my hands, and every Christian's hands (other than Doug McBurney, of course) since we have done nothing. How do we know that those police officers aren't doing everything within their legal power to stop what is happening. I know that I have.

There's a difference between trying to help, and trying to stop help.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:21 PM
There's a difference between trying to help, and trying to stop help. What if they're doing both?

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:22 PM
What if they're doing both?

You can't be pro-death and pro-life at the same time.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:24 PM
You can't be pro-death and pro-life at the same time.I never said you could. I said they could be stopping help (arresting people doing nothing but attracting media attention) and trying to help (contacting people who can actually do something) at the same time.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:29 PM
I never said you could. I said they could be stopping help (arresting people doing nothing but attracting media attention) and trying to help (contacting people who can actually do something) at the same time.

Are you trying to imply something you didn't type out?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:30 PM
Are you trying to imply something you didn't type out?I don't think I was. I'm not nearly that creative.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:33 PM
I don't think I was. I'm not nearly that creative.

So you're just saying that Karl and Mr. McBurney just wants the spotlight. I'm surprised to here you imply this, though maybe I shouldn't be. You're also saying that we should do this paper/phone, and people who can actually do something to help Terri.... yes? No? Am I incorrect?

Chileice
March 29th, 2005, 07:34 PM
You can't be pro-death and pro-life at the same time.

Unfortunately too many people are both. They support unborn children and then support the sale of assault rifle to kill the already born ones. Or they support homes for unwed mothers and adoption agencies for kids but support assisted suicide for the elderly. People are very aware of the consequences of their choices. Some are pro-death when it comes to criminals and pro-life when it comes to dying patients. But the reality is either ALL life is sacred or it AIN'T! People need to use some logic to make decisions that square with what they say they believe... not just following the lead of their favourite talking head. :hammer:

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:35 PM
So you're just saying that Karl and Mr. McBurney just wants the spotlight. I'm surprised to here you imply this, though maybe I shouldn't be.I'm not saying that is what they wanted. I said that is all they did.

You're also saying that we should do this paper/phone, and people who can actually do something to help Terri.... yes? No? Am I incorrect?Usually you're very articulate, but I don't understand this sentence.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:35 PM
Unfortunately too many people are both. They support unborn children and then support the sale of assault rifle to kill the already born ones. Or they support homes for unwed mothers and adoption agencies for kids but support assisted suicide for the elderly. People are very aware of the consequences of their choices. Some are pro-death when it comes to criminals and pro-life when it comes to dying patients. But the reality is either ALL life is sacred or it AIN'T! People need to use some logic to make decisions that square with what they say they believe... not just following the lead of their favourite talking head. :hammer:

... I'm not even going to begin taking this apart.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:37 PM
Unfortunately too many people are both. They support unborn children and then support the sale of assault rifle to kill the already born ones. Or they support homes for unwed mothers and adoption agencies for kids but support assisted suicide for the elderly. People are very aware of the consequences of their choices. Some are pro-death when it comes to criminals and pro-life when it comes to dying patients. But the reality is either ALL life is sacred or it AIN'T! People need to use some logic to make decisions that square with what they say they believe... not just following the lead of their favourite talking head. :hammer:I disagree. People can lose the sanctity of their own life by taking another. For example, if I hold you hostage, and threaten to shoot you in the head, it would not be wrong for a police sniper to blow my brains all over the place.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:38 PM
... I'm not even going to begin taking this apart.:chuckle: That was wise. I tried, but a stupid post bred a stupid reply. Ah well....

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:38 PM
I'm not saying that is what they wanted. I said that is all they did.

All they did but not all they wanted?


Usually you're very articulate, but I don't understand this sentence.

Are you saying that people should stop protesting, and do it the "civil" way? Wouldn't only Terri benefit from that?

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:39 PM
:chuckle: That was wise. I tried, but a stupid post bred a stupid reply. Ah well....

Frustrating how that works out, huh? :D

Chileice
March 29th, 2005, 07:44 PM
... I'm not even going to begin taking this apart.

And why not? What are you afraid that you will find, that you too are an inconsequent person?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:44 PM
All they did but not all they wanted?They may have genuinely wanted to give Terri water, but they did nothing even close to that. All they got was media attention.

Are you saying that people should stop protesting, and do it the "civil" way?I think protesting is a civil way.

Wouldn't only Terri benefit from that?I guess I don't need to reply to this part.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:45 PM
And why not?

I tried, but a stupid post bred a stupid reply. Ah well....

Chileice
March 29th, 2005, 07:47 PM
I disagree. People can lose the sanctity of their own life by taking another. For example, if I hold you hostage, and threaten to shoot you in the head, it would not be wrong for a police sniper to blow my brains all over the place.

Certainly people can do stupid things that may legitimately put them in peril but it does not make their lives of NO value. Unless you are a strict calvinist and hold that such a person was damned from the beginning, you cannot hold that line of thinking and maintain the grace of Christ. It is a logical fallacy.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Wow, I just now saw that this thread earned my 2 red boxes in my CP. One said, "What are you doing?" The other said, "Ugh! What ever happened to the normal 5020?"

Can't please 'em all all the time I guess.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:48 PM
And why not? What are you afraid that you will find, that you too are an inconsequent person?

I'm not afraid that I'm wrong, I'm afraid that you're wrong. :) But A) this isn't the thread and B) I'm not about the discuss this, when it's just going to go around in circles. I'm sure you've talked about this many times with better debaters then I am.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:48 PM
Certainly people can do stupid things that may legitimately put them in peril but it does not make their lives of NO value. Unless you are a strict calvinist and hold that such a person was damned from the beginning, you cannot hold that line of thinking and maintain the grace of Christ. It is a logical fallacy.I am not a strict Calvinist, nor am I saying that their life is of no value; I am saying that I would happily pull the trigger in that instance.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 07:50 PM
They may have genuinely wanted to give Terri water, but they did nothing even close to that. All they got was media attention.

LOL! Mr. McBurney got real close! LOL!


I think protesting is a civil way.

So you're not against protesters, you're just against spotlight grabbers.


I guess I don't need to reply to this part.

I'm going to say this again, it's not just about Terri. It's about people seeing the truth.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:53 PM
So you're not against protesters, you're just against spotlight grabbers.I guess I need to clarify, as that sounds like a oxymoron. I am not against protests that grab the spotlight. That is, of course, what protests are for. I am against someone trying to take the spotlight away from the protest and put it on himself/herself.

I'm going to say this again, it's not just about Terri. It's about people seeing the truth.I agree.

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 07:56 PM
Because I had read it, but couldn't find it.Do you remember whether it was something he actually posted, a quote from someone else (like Jefferson), or hearsay?

Could it be that you mistook his Crow quote (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=702123&postcount=34) for his own words?


Do you see that the post I quoted contradicts what you said about him?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Do you remember whether it was something he actually posted, a quote from someone else (like Jefferson), or hearsay?

Could it be that you mistook his Crow quote (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=702123&postcount=34) for his own words?


Do you see that the post I quoted contradicts what you said about him?The correct post was quoted earlier in this thread, which apparently I had misunderstood. But, like Zakath said earlier, it was somewhat vague, and us non-Enyartians do not know where he stands already.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 07:58 PM
Some are pro-death when it comes to criminals and pro-life when it comes to dying patients. But the reality is either ALL life is sacred or it AIN'T! People need to use some logic to make decisions that square with what they say they believe... not just following the lead of their favourite talking head. :hammer:

So if you are right, why do you think the Bible is so supportive of putting people to death?

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 08:04 PM
The correct post was quoted earlier in this thread, which apparently I had misunderstood. But, like Zakath said earlier, it was somewhat vague, and us non-Enyartians do not know where he stands already.
Did you not realize he was quoting Crow? (Maybe I should put a quote box around it.)

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 08:06 PM
I guess I need to clarify, as that sounds like a oxymoron. I am not against protests that grab the spotlight. That is, of course, what protests are for. I am against someone trying to take the spotlight away from the protest and put it on himself/herself.

I know them personally. Karl and Mr. McBurney didn't do that just to get into the media. Doubt there's any way I could convince you of that though. I will say, they don't like getting arrested, but when the media does happen to get a few of their words into the paper, it helps spread the truth quicker. You would agree that's a good thing, right? If they were never arrested, and the paper never put one of the words in print, they would do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do.


I agree.

How do you think this should be done?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:11 PM
I know them personally. Karl and Mr. McBurney didn't do that just to get into the media. Doubt there's any way I could convince you of that though.I said earlier that I did not think that was the only reason they did it. But I suppose at this time you're so set against me, that all my words are evil.

I will say, they don't like getting arrested, but when the media does happen to get a few of their words into the paper, it helps spread the truth quicker.Perhaps I missed the newspaper article where the truth (that goes beyond Terri) was stated.

You would agree that's a good thing, right?That is correct.

If they were never arrested, and the paper never put one of the words in print, they would do it anyway, because it's the right thing to do.That protest was already all over every paper in America.

How do you think this should be done?I honestly do not know. The protest was a great idea, though.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Did you not realize he was quoting Crow? (Maybe I should put a quote box around it.)I did not, at the time. Like I said earlier, I misunderstood. I would never blaspheme the great Bob.

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 08:16 PM
I said earlier that I did not think that was the only reason they did it. But I suppose at this time you're so set against me, that all my words are evil.
Perhaps I missed the newspaper article where the truth (that goes beyond Terri) was stated.
That is correct.
That protest was already all over every paper in America.
I honestly do not know. The protest was a great idea, though.

Oh good, it seems we agree. :)

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Oh good, it seems we agree. :):shocked: ;)

Ninjashadow
March 29th, 2005, 08:19 PM
I think the real problem here is HOW they are letting her die. If it were a matter of "simply" pulling the plug and her heart stops and she dies immediately, I don't think that this would be as big a deal. However, having said that, what they are doing is torturing her. She is starving/dehydrating to death. I find it incredibly hard to believe that she told her 'husband', "Honey, if I ever wind up needing tubes to live, pull the tubes and let me slowly die a painful, miserable death."

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 08:19 PM
I honestly do not know.
If you don't know, then don't say that those who do know are doing it wrong.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:20 PM
I think the real problem here is HOW they are letting her die. If it were a matter of "simply" pulling the plug and her heart stops and she dies immediately, I don't think that this would be as big a deal. However, having said that, what they are doing is torturing her. She is starving/dehydrating to death. I find it incredibly hard to believe that she told her 'husband', "Honey, if I ever wind up needing tubes to live, pull the tubes and let me slowly die a painful, miserable death."You're absolutely right. The evilness in this plot is horrifying, at best. I struggle to maintain how one human can wish this upon another.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:21 PM
If you don't know, then don't say that those who do know are doing it wrong.Not knowing how to do it right and knowing what is wrong are two separate things. Off the top of my head, I have no idea what 13 x 16 equals, but I know that 1,000,123,458,231,321.891 is the wrong answer.

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 08:22 PM
I did not, at the time. Like I said earlier, I misunderstood. OK. I edited the post to make the quote easier to distinguish.
I would never blaspheme the great Bob. Excuse me for setting the record straight. :rolleyes: I'd have done the same if someone wrongly attributed something to you.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:23 PM
Excuse me for setting the record straight. :rolleyes: I'd have done the same if someone wrongly attributed something to you.It had already been set straight.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 08:31 PM
Not knowing how to do it right and knowing what is wrong are two separate things. Off the top of my head, I have no idea what 13 x 16 equals, but I know that 1,000,123,458,231,321.891 is the wrong answer.
No, 5020, you can figure out the right answer for 13x16 if you think about it a little bit. You've had time to figure out this situation with Terri... and you still don't know the answer? It isn't that complicated. Only if you are a rock, like granite, could you have not figured it out. Only if you are more bothered by misbehaving protesters than judicial murder could you not figure it out.

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 08:33 PM
The evilness in this plot is horrifying, at best. I struggle to maintain how one human can wish this upon another.
The trick is they de-humanize her. Have you noticed how many of the people who can't wait to see her murdered keep saying that she's "brain dead" or "in a vegetative state"? It's the same thing they do with unborn baby, saying "It's not a baby, it's a fetus" or "It's a blob of tissue." It's the same thing Nazi's and other eugenics proponents do to justify killing "human waste" and "sub-humans."

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 08:42 PM
I disagree. People can lose the sanctity of their own life by taking another. For example, if I hold you hostage, and threaten to shoot you in the head, it would not be wrong for a police sniper to blow my brains all over the place.
I didn't get a chance to bring this up earlier but would you agree that by the same logic, you would be right to stop an abortionist by similar means if necessary?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:48 PM
No, 5020, you can figure out the right answer for 13x16 if you think about it a little bit. You've had time to figure out this situation with Terri... and you still don't know the answer? It isn't that complicated. Only if you are a rock, like granite, could you have not figured it out. Only if you are more bothered by misbehaving protesters than judicial murder could you not figure it out.In that case, what is your great idea for getting the truth spread out?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:48 PM
I didn't get a chance to bring this up earlier but would you agree that by the same logic, you would be right to stop an abortionist by similar means if necessary?No. One is against the law, and the other is not.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:00 PM
The trick is they de-humanize her. Have you noticed how many of the people who can't wait to see her murdered keep saying that she's "brain dead" or "in a vegetative state"? But those descriptions can be medically accurate in certain situations. While Terri Shiavo is not "brain dead" she is in a PVS.


It's the same thing they do with unborn baby, saying "It's not a baby, it's a fetus" or "It's a blob of tissue."It's a matter of perspective. All humans are, in some sense, a blob of tissue.


It's the same thing Nazi's and other eugenics proponents do to justify killing "human waste" and "sub-humans."The trick is the Christians try to demonize their opponents by comparing them to "Nazis" or other traditionally evil groups. I've borne the brunt of such namecalling several times in the last week. Particularly after I voiced an unpopular opinion about one of TOL's heroes... :rolleyes:

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM
No. One is against the law, and the other is not.

What if kidnapping, rape or murder is legalized? Would you then condemn that sniper?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM
The trick is the Christians try to demonize their opponents by comparing them to "Nazis" or other traditionally evil groups. I've borne the brunt of such namecalling several times in the last week. Particularly after I voiced an unpopular opinion about one of TOL's heroes... :rolleyes:Im starting to agree with you more and more... :shocked:

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:02 PM
What if kidnapping, rape or murder is legalized? Would you then condemn that sniper?It's an unrealistic comparison.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:07 PM
It's an unrealistic comparison.

Not at all. Murder of various peoples or groups (Jews, Christians etc.) has been legalized throughout history.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:08 PM
Not at all. Murder of various peoples or groups (Jews, Christians etc.) has been legalized throughout history.In that case, yes, I would condemn the sniper.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 09:09 PM
In that case, what is your great idea for getting the truth spread out?
Post you opposition to Terri's murder on forums. Call your congress persons. If you can, go and protest and if you cannot, support churches that can. Take water to Terri. Tell the police what they are doing, and if they don't listen, tell them more forcefully. Send money to Churches that are sponsering protesters. Keep the police from doing their jobs easy by laying in the path where they are supposed to go. Where ever you go, tell people that Terri is being murdered and they shouldn't just passively ignore it. Write a column or editorial in the newspaper. If you have a radio show, keep it as a constant topic. Post how you oppose the murder on your blog. Make it a campaign issue in the next election. If people think of more things, don't discourage them.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:10 PM
In that case, yes, I would condemn the sniper.

You would condemn him for killing a Christian or for killing the attacker of the Christian?

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 09:11 PM
In that case, yes, I would condemn the sniper.
How about the judge that ordered the sniper to murder the various people?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:13 PM
You would condemn him for killing a Christian or for killing the attacker of the Christian?The attacker of the Christian.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:14 PM
How about the judge that ordered the sniper to murder the various people?That is illogical, because the legal system is against the sniper in this hypothetical situation.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:21 PM
The attacker of the Christian.

Why on earth would you condemn a man who saves an innocent life? :confused:

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Why on earth would you condemn a man who saves an innocent life? :confused:It is not his job to be the judge, jury, and executioner.

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 09:35 PM
But those descriptions can be medically accurate in certain situations. While Terri Shiavo is not "brain dead" she is in a PVS.

It's a matter of perspective. All humans are, in some sense, a blob of tissue. Case in point.


The trick is the Christians try to demonize their opponents by comparing them to "Nazis" or other traditionally evil groups. I've borne the brunt of such namecalling several times in the last week. Particularly after I voiced an unpopular opinion about one of TOL's heroes... :rolleyes:But those comparisons can be accurate in certain situations.

If the shoe fits...

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:36 PM
It is not his job to be the judge, jury, and executioner.

He's not being judge, jury and executioner. He's protecting an innocent person from being murdered.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:37 PM
He's not being judge, jury and executioner. He's protecting an innocent person from being murdered.Illegally. "Thou shalt not murder. No exceptions."

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:37 PM
But those comparisons can be accurate in certain situations.Or not, in most situations. ;)


If the shoe fits...But I'm talking about all the people who are being given shoes that don't fit.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:39 PM
Illegally. "Thou shalt not murder. No exceptions."

So there is no difference in say, raping and killing a woman and stopping that rapist?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:41 PM
So there is no difference in say, raping and killing a woman and stopping that rapist?Do they have the same result?

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Do they have the same result?
No. One ends with an innocent woman being murdered. The other ends with the woman alive and the evil rapist dead. One is bad and one is good.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:45 PM
No. One ends with an innocent woman being murdered. The other ends with the woman alive and the evil rapist dead. One is bad and one is good.I see what you're saying, but that's what he have the legal system for. That why's we elect our leaders. Do what you wish, but be willing to be a criminal and accept the consequences thereof.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:48 PM
I see what you're saying, but that's what he have the legal system for. That why's we elect our leaders. Do what you wish, but be willing to be a criminal and accept the consequences thereof.

Let me be clear. I'm not encouraging people to take on the role of judge. I am saying that it is morally and Biblically right to protect an innocent person if they are being attacked. That is different from avenging someone after the fact.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Let me be clear. I'm not encouraging people to take on the role of judge. I am saying that it is morally and Biblically right to protect an innocent person if they are being attacked.By killing the other? You have a reference, of course.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 09:56 PM
By killing the other? You have a reference, of course.

A reference supporting defending people? Sure. "Love your neighbor" is a good place to start but a specific example would be Moses defending the Israelite.


24 "And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he [Moses] defended and avenged him who was oppressed and struck down the Egyptian."
25 "For he supposed that his brethren would understand that God would deliver them by his hand, but they did not understand.

I know that this story is generally thought to be a murder but obviously, God was willing to use Moses right then to free the Israelites. God was going to bless the action and raise Moses up if only the people would follow. That doesn't sound like something God would do if it was a sin does it?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:29 PM
A reference supporting defending people? Sure. "Love your neighbor" is a good place to start but a specific example would be Moses defending the Israelite.

I know that this story is generally thought to be a murder but obviously, God was willing to use Moses right then to free the Israelites. God was going to bless the action and raise Moses up if only the people would follow. That doesn't sound like something God would do if it was a sin does it?And as we know, that worked out real well.

26 And the next day he appeared to two of them as they were fighting, and tried to reconcile them, saying, "Men, you are brethren; why do you wrong one another?'
27 But he who did his neighbor wrong pushed him away, saying, "Who made you a ruler and a judge over us?
28 Do you want to kill me as you did the Egyptian yesterday?'
29 Then, at this saying, Moses fled and became a dweller in the land of Midian, where he had two sons.

Imrahil
March 29th, 2005, 10:51 PM
And as we know, that worked out real well.


26 And the next day he appeared to two of them as they were fighting, and tried to reconcile them, saying, "Men, you are brethren; why do you wrong one another?'
27 But he who did his neighbor wrong pushed him away, saying, "Who made you a ruler and a judge over us?
28 Do you want to kill me as you did the Egyptian yesterday?'
29 Then, at this saying, Moses fled and became a dweller in the land of Midian, where he had two sons.
(One last post for the night)

What does that have to do with the example? The fact that an Israelite was a sinner and a jerk to Moses doesn't change the fact that Moses did the right thing and God wanted to bless him for it.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM
(One last post for the night)We can agree on that. Have a good night.

Mr. 5020
March 30th, 2005, 07:12 AM
Shadowmaid said,

You're swinging like a pendulum.
Can you show me my contradictory posts?

ShadowMaid
March 30th, 2005, 08:11 AM
Shadowmaid said,

Can you show me my contradictory posts?

I've looked back, it seems your posts are pretty consistant. But I'm having trouble now in understanding yours posts. I'm confused on where you stand exactly, and I apologize for a, perhaps, false accusation. :o

Mr. 5020
March 30th, 2005, 08:13 AM
I've looked back, it seems your posts are pretty consistant. But I'm having trouble now in understanding yours posts. I'm confused on where you stand exactly, and I apologize for a, perhaps, false accusation. :oGood. Now give me a green box to replace the red box you already gave me. ;)

ShadowMaid
March 30th, 2005, 08:16 AM
Good. Now give me a green box to replace the red box you already gave me. ;)

Could you explain where you stand?

Wamba
March 31st, 2005, 10:22 AM
bump again

JoyfulRook
March 31st, 2005, 10:37 AM
Attention TOL: Terri Schindler Schiavo is dead as of this morning.

This is sad. I hope she goes to be with the Lord. For More information (http://www.terrisfight.org/)

Wamba
March 31st, 2005, 10:41 AM
:cry: This is a sad age that kills its own people.

Rimi
March 31st, 2005, 10:53 AM
This truly is sad. Just a jumble of emotions. Anger, grief, despair, hope. Keep coming tho to "what can we do?" Seriously, what can we do. How should we even be praying on this? I keep jumping from asking God to comfort her family to crying out for vengeance on this nation. So distracted. I just don't know how to pray. Sorry, just ranting. Very, very upset.

Zakath
March 31st, 2005, 10:58 AM
It's all over now, so can we can go back to being normal, reasonably polite individuals? :think:

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 01:26 PM
:sozo2: :madmad: :Grizzly: :liberals:

I feel a little better now.

Art Deco
March 31st, 2005, 03:41 PM
:cry: This is a sad age that kills its own people. Agreed, but now the battle gets more intense. Pour out your wrath through tireless confrontation on those who let her die be they Repubs or Dems, Christians, or non-Christians alike. Terri will have died in vain if we give up the culture war. Tactics change, the courts have now become the number one target. Get some rest, the battle rages. God is testing us...Circle the wagons. :angel:

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 07:52 PM
It's all over now, so can we can go back to being normal, reasonably polite individuals? :think:
Amen.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 07:53 PM
Amen.

So you're not going to tell me exactly where you stand?

Art Deco
March 31st, 2005, 07:59 PM
So you're not going to tell me exactly where you stand? The Amen tells you all you need to know...sad to say...:(

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:03 PM
The Amen tells you all you need to know...sad to say...:(

Okay, if he doesn't want to talk about his position, I'm not going to make him.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:05 PM
So you're not going to tell me exactly where you stand?Where I stand on what? I'm not sure, but does this help?

You're absolutely right. The evilness in this plot is horrifying, at best. I struggle to maintain how one human can wish this upon another.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:06 PM
Okay, if he doesn't want to talk about his position, I'm not going to make him.Geez, give me time to reply, will ya. I was trying to find one of my earlier posts.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:06 PM
Where I stand on what? I'm not sure, but does this help?

It seemed that we disagreed, I was trying to figure out where.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:06 PM
Geez, give me time to reply, will ya. I was trying to find one of my earlier posts.

There was no attitude in my post.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:08 PM
It seemed that we disagreed, I was trying to figure out where.
Where I Stand?
by Oscar Silva

I believe what happened to Terri Schiavo was a horrible, horrible thing, and I believe those that did it will be punished by an eternal flame.

THE END

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:09 PM
There was no attitude in my post.:confused:

I meant that you guys were already discussing my lack of reply before I ever had a chance to reply. It had nothing to do with attitude.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:11 PM
:confused:

I meant that you guys were already discussing my lack of reply before I ever had a chance to reply. It had nothing to do with attitude.

I never said that you weren't going to post. I said that if you didn't want to state your position, you didn't have to. I'm not going to make you.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:13 PM
I never said that you weren't going to post. I said that if you didn't want to state your position, you didn't have to. I'm not going to make you.Ok, I posted where I stand. Is everybody happy now?

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:14 PM
Ok, I posted where I stand. Is everybody happy now?

It seems everyone but you. Are you happy? Do you want to discuss your position?

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:17 PM
It seems everyone but you. Are you happy? Do you want to discuss your position?My position on what? I already posted my position on Terry's murder.

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:21 PM
Do you still think it is wrong to save innocent lives if it requires breaking the law?

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:23 PM
Mr. 5020, do you really believe it's "The End" of the Schiavo case? Do you want it to be?

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:27 PM
Do you still think it is wrong to save innocent lives if it requires breaking the law?That depends upon the situation.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:28 PM
Mr. 5020, do you really believe it's "The End" of the Schiavo case? Do you want it to be?I'm sure there are many more court cases on the way, if that's what you're asking.

Wamba
March 31st, 2005, 08:29 PM
That depends upon the situation.


This situation. The Terri Schiavo situation. You can break the law and get here water. What do you do?

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:31 PM
That depends upon the situation.
Why?

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:31 PM
Why?Because every situation is different.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:32 PM
This situation. The Terri Schiavo situation. You can break the law and get here water. What do you do?There was no point to doing in this situation. It would have just prolonged the torture. The only way to get anything done in this case was through legal routes, which, unfortunately, failed us.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:33 PM
I'm sure there are many more court cases on the way, if that's what you're asking.

Yes, I have the feeling that there are going to be more court cases also.

I mean, now that it's over, do you just want people to drop it the subject? Go on?

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:33 PM
Because every situation is different.
No, why is it sometimes wrong to do the right thing? That seems to be an impossiblity does it not?

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:35 PM
Yes, I have the feeling that there are going to be more court cases also.

I mean, now that it's over, do you just want people to drop it the subject? Go on?Not at all. Citizens everywhere, including myself, should be urging their congressmen to look into legislature that would stop this from happening again. I'm sure, with time, they can come up with something. Unfortunately, the laws they passed this time were done in haste, so they had legal holes.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:35 PM
No, why is it sometimes wrong to do the right thing? That seems to be an impossiblity does it not?When you do the right thing the wrong way.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:36 PM
Not at all. Citizens everywhere, including myself, should be urging their congressmen to look into legislature that would stop this from happening again. I'm sure, with time, they can come up with something. Unfortunately, the laws they passed this time were done in haste, so they had legal holes.

Okay, now I'm moving onto a different topic, which Wamba and Imrahil have right now.

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:37 PM
When you do the right thing the wrong way.
No such thing. If you are doing the right thing, it's the right thing

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:37 PM
Okay, now I'm moving onto a different topic, which Wamba and Imrahil have right now.I hope that I answered your questions. I don't want you to think I'm "swinging like a pendulum" or anything.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:38 PM
No such thing. If you are doing the right thing, it's the right thingThere's no such thing as doing the right thing the wrong way? How many times have you heard, "You were right. You just did it the wrong way."?

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:40 PM
I hope that I answered your questions. I don't want you to think I'm "swinging like a pendulum" or anything.

So far you're pretty consistant in what you're saying. You don't believe the case of Terri Schiavo should be forgotten, and something should be done to try and keep this from happening. I think where you and I disagree is what should be done to try and prevent this.

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:40 PM
There's no such thing as doing the right thing the wrong way? How many times have you heard, "You were right. You just did it the wrong way."?
I don't think I've ever heard that actually. But do you think that it is shortsighted or immoral to do things the "wrong way"?

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:42 PM
I don't think I've ever heard that actually. But do you think that it is shortsighted or immoral to do things the "wrong way"?It can be immoral to do things the wrong way. A sniper that goes around shooting rapists will serve in prison right next to a rapist.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:43 PM
I think where you and I disagree is what should be done to try and prevent this.All I say is to do things that will make a difference and aren't a black eye in what you're trying to do. I would be willing to say that the Terri protest lost some of its honor by the actions of McBurney and followers, at least in the eyes of some, wouldn't you?

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:43 PM
It can be immoral to do things the wrong way. A sniper that goes around shooting rapists will serve in prison right next to a rapist.
:doh: A sniper going around shooting rapists would be immoral. That would not be the "right thing the wrong way".

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:45 PM
:doh: A sniper going around shooting rapists would be immoral. That would not be the "right thing the wrong way".You don't think rapists should be put to death?

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:45 PM
All I say is to do things that will make a difference and aren't a black eye in what you're trying to do. I would be willing to say that the Terri protest lost some of its honor by the actions of McBurney and followers, at least in the eyes of some, wouldn't you?

They were right for trying to get Terri water, and protesting. They did make a difference.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:47 PM
They were right for trying to get Terri water, and protesting. They did make a difference.You didn't answer my question.

julie21
March 31st, 2005, 08:51 PM
They were right for trying to get Terri water, and protesting. They did make a difference.
Terri didn't get the water...her life ended..what difference did they make? I am seriously interested Shadowmaid, because I cannot see it.
A future difference may be made through fixing/exploring better legislation under the Constitution to ensure this does not set a precedent for future victims.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:51 PM
You didn't answer my question.

Can you restate your question?

Imrahil
March 31st, 2005, 08:52 PM
You don't think rapists should be put to death?
I absolutely think they should be put to death! That is completely different than someone taking it upon themselves to go around killing them. Justice must be applied by the proper authorities for it to be just.

ShadowMaid
March 31st, 2005, 08:53 PM
Terri didn't get the water...her life ended..what difference did they make? I am seriously interested Shadowmaid, because I cannot see it.
A future difference may be made through fixing/exploring better legislation under the Constitution to ensure this does not set a precedent for future victims.

It's more then just Terri. It's also about showing people the truth. The police men for example, it would have never entered their minds that they were being paid to help murder an innocent woman if there were no protesters to talk them through it.

Mr. 5020
March 31st, 2005, 08:59 PM
I absolutely think they should be put to death! That is completely different than someone taking it upon themselves to go around killing them. Justice must be applied by the proper authorities for it to be just.Hmmm....I think you're swinging now, or at least confusing me. The proceeding dialogue made me believe that you thought a sniper taking out evil-doers was ok. Was I mistaken?

I disagree. People can lose the sanctity of their own life by taking another. For example, if I hold you hostage, and threaten to shoot you in the head, it would not be wrong for a police sniper to blow my brains all over the place.

I didn't get a chance to bring this up earlier but would you agree that by the same logic, you would be right to stop an abortionist by similar means if necessary?

No. One is against the law, and the other is not.

What if kidnapping, rape or murder is legalized? Would you then condemn that sniper?

In that case, yes, I would condemn the sniper.

Why on earth would you condemn a man who saves an innocent life? :confused: