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ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Deputies restrain Doug McBurney Sunday in front of the Pinellas Park hospice where Terri Schiavo lives, after he tried to pass police lines to give her water. About three dozen protesters stayed after Schiavo's family asked them to spend Easter with their families....

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/local_news/epaper/2005/03/28/s1a_Pinellas_0328.html

Those police men are no better then the Nazi's. :nono: Good job Mr. McBurney!

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 10:18 AM
Those police men are no better then the Nazi's. :nono: Good job Mr. McBurney!
So he stayed after being asked to leave by the family who called the demonstration in the first place, violated police order not to pass a legal police line and disrupt a facility full of infirm people and their families, got arrested, and somehow this makes him a "hero" and the police "nazis"?

:kookoo:

Yorzhik
March 28th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Zak. Was Bonhoeffer a hero? Of course. I guess if Doug is a hero would depend on if Terri was really being murdered or not. After looking at the evidence, I think it is obvious she is.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 01:28 PM
So he stayed after being asked to leave by the family who called the demonstration in the first place, violated police order not to pass a legal police line and disrupt a facility full of infirm people and their families, got arrested, and somehow this makes him a "hero" and the police "nazis"?

:kookoo:

Do you think the Nazi soldiers were wrong to murder all those jews? It's a yes or no question. :)

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 01:43 PM
Zak. Was Bonhoeffer a hero?
Not really, outside of a small circle, until after his death.


Of course. I guess if Doug is a hero would depend on if Terri was really being murdered or not. After looking at the evidence, I think it is obvious she is.Why would a media-hound's heroism be dependent on the status of a woman in a hospice? I notice that thirty or so other people got arrested and no one here published the names of those "heroes". :think:

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 01:46 PM
Do you think the Nazi soldiers were wrong to murder all those jews?I think soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, policemen, firemen, or national guardsmen who murder people are wrong, whatever government they serve.

I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there. :down:

As a matter of fact, I'm surprized one of the local Denver Christian shock jocks isn't down there trying to get his share of the limelight.

Don't you people get tired of regurgitating the same arguments year after year?

Why do you label everyone that doesn't agree with you a "nazi"?

Simple questions.

Knight
March 28th, 2005, 01:48 PM
Don't you people get tired of regurgitating the same arguments year after year?
Maybe you get tired of these arguments because you have no rational answer for them. :think:

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 01:51 PM
I think soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, policemen, firemen, or national guardsmen who murder people are wrong, whatever government they serve.

How about people who help with the murder?


Don't you people get tired of regurgitating the same arguments year after year?

I think we get tired of people being stupid, but we're happy to try and spread the truth.


Why do you label everyone that doesn't agree with you a "nazi"?

Not sure where you got this. I don't.


Simple questions.

Was that simple enough?

Nineveh
March 28th, 2005, 01:55 PM
Go Doug! Go Doug! :bannana: :jump:

And this guy....

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 01:57 PM
Maybe you get tired of these arguments because you have no rational answer for them. :think:
It's just hearing them over, and over, and over, and over... they lose their shock value and become merely trite.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 02:00 PM
Go Doug! Go Doug! :bannana: :jump:

And this guy....

:BRAVO:

drbrumley
March 28th, 2005, 02:00 PM
It's just hearing them over, and over, and over, and over... they lose their shock value and become merely trite.
Hey Zak, you mispelled, "Knight, I'm a loser. And I support murdering innocent people."

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:04 PM
How about people who help with the murder?Define "help"...

... do you mean the people that transport them?

... do you mean the people who built the buildings and house them?

... do you mean the people who deliver food to them?

... do you mean anyone who makes their living by capitalizing on the sufferings of others?

:think:


I think we get tired of people being stupid, but we're happy to try and spread the truth.And when your message fails, century after century, perhaps you'd do well to rexamine it. ;)


Not sure where you got this. I don't.Perhaps I was mistaken. It's just seemed that that term has been thrown around here quite a bit lately... (30+ posts in the last week)


Was that simple enough?Yes, thank you. :)

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Hey Zak, you mispelled, "Knight, I'm a loser. And I support murdering innocent people."
Speaking of redundant and trite, and look who shows up... nice try, dumbley. :chuckle:

drbrumley
March 28th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Oh wow, a juniour high trick of ryming a name.

I do have a question for you Mr. medical doctor. Why give morphiene to someone who should be euphoric because she is being starved and thristed to death. Wasn't it you who said or at least agreed she wouldn't feel anything? If she isn't feeling anything, then why the need for morphiene?

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Oh wow, a juniour high trick of ryming a name. What's wrong, DR, jealous? ;)


I do have a question for you Mr. medical doctor. Why give morphiene to someone who should be euphoric because she is being starved and thristed to death.BZZZZZT!
:down: Wrong again, Bosley. Zakath is not a medical doctor. I am a shrink, I don't do medical questions.


Wasn't it you who said or at least agreed she wouldn't feel anything?Fishing pretty hard there, eh?

Wrong on both counts. Again.


If she isn't feeling anything, then why the need for morphiene?Go ask a physician. :thumb:

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 02:17 PM
Define "help"...

... do you mean the people that transport them?

... do you mean the people who built the buildings and house them?

... do you mean the people who deliver food to them?

... do you mean anyone who makes their living by capitalizing on the sufferings of others?

:think:

Well, people who transport them to be murdered and the like. Does that make it more clear?


And when your message fails, century after century, perhaps you'd do well to rexamine it. ;)

Absolutely, we do it all the time.


Perhaps I was mistaken. It's just seemed that that term has been thrown around here quite a bit lately... (30+ posts in the last week)

Not everyone is a Nazi.


Yes, thank you. :)

:thumb:

drbrumley
March 28th, 2005, 02:17 PM
A message for Doug, If you need a place to rest while your in the area, I have a bed open for you. If you don't mind an hour drive from Pinellas County.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Karl Henderson, 25, of Denver Bible Church, took issue with Schindler. "We should be able to take her water if she's dying," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050328/pl_usatoday/angeratbushesastimegrowsshortforschiavo

:bannana:

drbrumley
March 28th, 2005, 02:20 PM
Oh, your just a godless shrink. Thats ok.

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Well, people who transport them to be murdered and the like. Does that make it more clear?Why yes, thank you.

So in your view the ambulance driver who took Terri Schaivo to the hospice is a nazi?


Absolutely, we do it all the time.Perhaps you should consider changing the ineffective parts of the message, not merely examining it. ;)



Not everyone is a Nazi.Never said everyone was. As a matter of fact, other than Hitler and a few of his top officials I don't ever recall calling anyone a Nazi here on TOL... :think:

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:31 PM
:bannana:
You left out part of the story. Context is important, ShadowMaid.

citation (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050328/pl_usatoday/angeratbushesastimegrowsshortforschiavo)
...Tension mounted outside Woodside Hospice here, where Schiavo was in her 10th day without food or water. Bobby Schindler, Schiavo's brother, told the protesters they aren't helping his family by getting arrested.

Karl Henderson, 25, of Denver Bible Church, took issue with Schindler. "We should be able to take her water if she's dying," he said.

"You're not speaking for our family," Schindler said...

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 02:45 PM
Why yes, thank you.

So in your view the ambulance driver who took Terri Schaivo to the hospice is a nazi?

10 years ago? No, he was trying to help her. Now the police men that are keeping her from getting water, they're Nazi's. They're letting her die when they could do something or at least try.


Perhaps you should consider changing the ineffective parts of the message, not merely examining it. ;)

It's only ineffective, because people don't like the truth.

The point I'm trying to make is, Mr. McBurney is a hero, because he's trying to show the truth, and is even willing to pay the consequences. The police, however, are just letting her die. :down:

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 02:48 PM
You left out part of the story. Context is important, ShadowMaid.

citation (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/usatoday/20050328/pl_usatoday/angeratbushesastimegrowsshortforschiavo)

To which he said,
We are speaking for Terri. Do not discourage people from doing what is right. What is right is trying to get her some water.

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 02:49 PM
10 years ago? No, he was trying to help her. Now the police men that are keeping her from getting water, they're Nazi's. They're letting her die when they could do something or at least try.Ahh, thank you for clarifying that point.


It's only ineffective, because people don't like the truth.Perhaps. Or it could be that, since Christians make up less than 1/3 of the world's population after twenty centuries, the message is not convincing to most of the world's people.


The point I'm trying to make is, Mr. McBurney is a hero, because he's trying to show the truth, and is even willing to pay the consequences. The police, however, are just letting her die. :down:Thank you for clarifying your point. I would agree that Mr. McBurney has his rights to ignore the expressed wishes of the Schindlers and the Shaivos and protest. But his insensitivity apparent playing to the camera does not rate "hero" status in my thinking.

Do you suppose Jesus would have protested many of the Roman executions the way McBurney is protesting this?

:think:

Poly
March 28th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Ahh, thank you for clarifying that point.


Thank you for clarifying your point. I would agree that Mr. McBurney has his rights to ignore the expressed wishes of the Schindlers and the Shaivos and protest. But his insensitivity apparent playing to the camera does not rate "hero" status in my thinking.



Do you really think that you have enough information or evidence to make such a statement? :) Surely you don't feel your profession gives you the authority to assume things about people that you have no way of knowing. :) You know nothing about him. :) I sense a little bit of overconfidence in claiming another motive behind his actions other than his true convictions. :) Would you like a soda? :)

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 03:32 PM
Disrespecting the Schindler's wishes for a few minutes of airtime is grotesque and absolutely shameful.

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Good job Mr. McBurney!
Yeah! Go Doug! :banana: It's sad that this is what things have come to.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 03:39 PM
Sad that what her parents want doesn't matter at this point.:nono:

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:41 PM
I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there. :down:

Simple questions.
Look, I know Doug, and I know that he would not have done it just to get his face on TV. He genuinely wants the Government and her dirtbag of an estranged husband to stop the killing of this innocent woman. If he did get media attention it's a good thing, as it reminds us that there are actually some people left in America that don't have a bloodlust for the Innocent Disabled, Innocent Unborn, and Innocent Elderly. :Commie: meet your alter ego :zakath: , :zakath: alter ego :Commie: . :down:

Servo
March 28th, 2005, 03:46 PM
I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there. :down:



Simple questions.

Wow, you are so wrong about that. I was with Doug once when he got arrested, not one camera around.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 03:46 PM
So his own agenda is more important than what the Schindlers want and are asking for.

Nice attitude.

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 03:47 PM
Do you really think that you have enough information or evidence to make such a statement? :) Which statement? I made several in one paragraph...


Surely you don't feel your profession gives you the authority to assume things about people that you have no way of knowing. :)No, I usually leave that type of thing to you religionists... :chuckle:


You know nothing about him. :)IIRC he was the person quoted in a local paper demanding that Aaron McKinney be handed over to a crowd (mob?) outside a courtroom for execution. source (http://www.hannibal.net/stories/110399/new_1103990014.html) His exact words, as quoted by the reporter were:

''We came here to request that the murderer be handed over for an execution,'' said demonstrator Doug McBurney.

That kind of statement tells quite a bit about the speaker, don't you think?


I sense a little bit of overconfidence in claiming another motive behind his actions other than his true convictions. :) Do you really think that you have enough information or evidence to make such a statement? :chuckle:

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:49 PM
The Police shouldn't be arresting little compassionate kids and Adults like Doug. They should be arresting, Judge Greer, Terri's estranged Husband, and the doctors who have withheld food and water to a woman who is mentally disabled, not terminal.

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:51 PM
...
''We came here to request that the murderer be handed over for an execution,'' said demonstrator Doug McBurney.

Alright! He should be arrested, tried and executed! :first:

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Wow, you are so wrong about that. I was with Doug once when he got arrested, not one camera around.Thank you for correcting that misperception. What, might I ask, were you doing when he got arrested?

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:53 PM
Karl Henderson, 25, of Denver Bible Church, took issue with Schindler. "We should be able to take her water if she's dying," he said.

He's right whether the Shindlers agree or not.

Zakath
March 28th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Alright! He should be arrested, tried and executed! :first:He who?

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 03:57 PM
He who? I believe he was referring to Judge Greer.

Servo
March 28th, 2005, 03:59 PM
Thank you for correcting that misperception. What, might I ask, were you doing when he got arrested?

Doug, myself, and some other people were holding up large signs that said "Rapist" and had a profile of Bubba Bill Jeff on them. We were standing on a public sidewalk near Columbine high school. Clinton was to visit that day and right before he passed us by in his limo, the police forced us to put our signs on the ground or be arrested. Doug refused to but his sign down.

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Doug, myself, and some other people were holding up large signs that said "Rapist" and had a profile of Bubba Bill Jeff on them. We were standing on a public sidewalk near Columbine high school. Clinton was to visit that day and right before he passed us by in his limo, the police forced us to put our signs on the ground or be arrested. Doug refused to but his sign down.
Standing for what's right yet again. He is a great guy.

Servo
March 28th, 2005, 04:07 PM
Standing for what's right yet again. He is a great guy.

:up:

Agape4Robin
March 28th, 2005, 04:08 PM
And when your message fails, century after century, perhaps you'd do well to rexamine it. ;)

Zak....it's NOT the message......it's the ones who recieve the message or more likely....fail to recieve it!! :rolleyes:

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 04:10 PM
He's right whether the Shindlers agree or not.

By this reasoning you'd support Michael Schiavo.:rolleyes:

This grandstanding and chest thumping might make you guys feel better but evidently it's distressing Terri's parents. I don't blame them.

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:10 PM
So his own agenda is more important than what the Schindlers want and are asking for.

Nice attitude.
No. What is morally right is more important than what the Schindlers want.

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:13 PM
By this reasoning you'd support Michael Schiavo.:rolleyes:

No Michael Schiavo is a muderer and it doesn't matter what he thinks or anyone else thinks, it's about what is morally right or wrong. Michael Schiavo was morally wrong. Doug was morally right. Terri should not be killed.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 04:16 PM
No Michael Schiavo is a muderer and it doesn't matter what he thinks or anyone else thinks, it's about what is morally right or wrong. Michael Schiavo was morally wrong. Doug was morally right. Terri should not be killed.

He may be right but this grandstanding is absolutely absurd. And her parents want these guys to pack up and go home. Evidently their own bloviating is more important than doing the decent thing and bowing out gracefully.

Agape4Robin
March 28th, 2005, 04:17 PM
No Michael Schiavo is a muderer and it doesn't matter what he thinks or anyone else thinks, it's about what is morally right or wrong. Michael Schiavo was morally wrong. Doug was morally right. Terri should not be killed.
:bannana: Go dread, Go Dread!!!!! :thumb:

Servo
March 28th, 2005, 04:20 PM
He may be right but this grandstanding is absolutely absurd. And her parents want these guys to pack up and go home. Evidently their own bloviating is more important than doing the decent thing and bowing out gracefully.

If Doug is right, why would he bow out?

Can Doug be right and absurd at the same time?

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:21 PM
Evidently their own bloviating is more important than doing the decent thing and bowing out gracefully.

Oh yeah go ahead. Just Bow out! Get on your knees and bow down to culture of death. You french leftist. :Commie:

I'm glad people like Doug and Karl have not Bowed out of this fight. It's bigger than Terri. It's about Right and Wrong.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 04:23 PM
If Doug is right, why would he bow out?

Can Doug be right and absurd at the same time?

Her parents have asked these people to chill out and stop getting themselves arrested. Evidently their wishes only matter when convenient.

This grandstanding has turned a tragedy into a farce and a woman's death into a horrific, circus-like spectacle.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 04:24 PM
Oh yeah go ahead. Just Bow out! Get on your knees and bow down to culture of death. You french leftist. :Commie:

I'm glad people like Doug and Karl have not Bowed out of this fight. It's bigger than Terri. It's about Right and Wrong.

Dread, get a clue and look before you leap. I'm a pro-life live free or die libertarian. What I am opposed to are these goons hogging the TV limelight while the Schindlers have asked them repeatedly to tone down their act.

I think a lot of these people are more interested the sound of their own voice than anything else.

Agape4Robin
March 28th, 2005, 04:26 PM
granite1010]Her parents have asked these people to chill out and stop getting themselves arrested. Evidently their wishes only matter when convenient.

Like the convnience of her husband asking the court to "let her die?"

This grandstanding has turned a tragedy into a farce and a woman's death into a horrific, circus-like spectacle

You can thank Michael Schiavo, Judge Greer and George Felos for that!!!!!

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:27 PM
This grandstanding has turned a tragedy into a farce and a woman's death into a horrific, circus-like spectacle. It is a tragedy. It is horrific. But guess what? It's bigger than Terri. It's about principle: It's about right and wrong. Other disabled people are at risk too. It's bigger than Terri. It is about right and wrong. This is disgusting

Agape4Robin
March 28th, 2005, 04:29 PM
It is a tragedy. It is horrific. But guess what? It's bigger than Terri. It's about principle: It's about right and wrong. Other disabled people are at risk too. It's bigger than Terri. It is about right and wrong. This is disgusting
:taoist: :vomit:

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 04:32 PM
I'm a pro-life live free or die libertarian.

Good. I'm glad you are pro life.


What I am opposed to are these goons hogging the TV limelight while the Schindlers have asked them repeatedly to tone down their act.
They are trying to bring attention to this woman's torturous death by Judicial Decree.

Agape4Robin
March 28th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Dread-
These people just don't get it!! :nono:
Even though they know they are wrong, they continue to argue. :loser: :rolleyes:

JoyfulRook
March 28th, 2005, 05:27 PM
You blinked, you missed it. The pro-life community just switched positions; it now supports assisted suicide! In their vital fight to save Florida’s Terri Schiavo from being starved to death by judicial decree, they foolishly hinged their position on the absence of a “written directive.” If the Hemlock Society had tried to pass a federal law legitimizing assisted suicide, pro-lifers would have stopped them. But pro-life leaders have so often compromised on “Thou shall not murder,” they no longer realize when they’re making concessions. They tried desperately to pass the Incapacitated Persons Legal Protection Act which, for the first time ever in federal law, would have legitimized state assisted suicide laws permitting “the withdrawal of food or fluids” simply with “a written advance directive valid under applicable law.” It's okay for dying people to die, it's not ok to kill them. Morality does not require ventilating and pumping fluids through a virtual corpse that has no brain activity, but starving someone to death is wrong. With this development, the pro-life movement would have people looking to “pull the plug,” and when finding no plug, go ahead and assist in suicide by starvation because of a “written directive.” And now that even pro-lifers are sliding down the slippery slope, when the culture of death wants to prevent the suffering of starvation and administer a mercy-killing lethal injection, who will be left to argue?

-Pastor Bob Enyart, DenverBibleChurch.org

PS. Legitimize means to declare legally valid; in accordance with law.



Just thought I would repost this.

ShadowMaid
March 28th, 2005, 08:30 PM
Wow! This thread has gone a long way since I left for dance. I read everything, but you'll have to clarify if you have an unanswered question to which I can answer. :) But it seems like Turin and Shimei have it handled. :)

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 08:34 PM
I think soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, policemen, firemen, or national guardsmen who murder people are wrong, whatever government they serve.

I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there. :down:

As a matter of fact, I'm surprized one of the local Denver Christian shock jocks isn't down there trying to get his share of the limelight.:chuckle:

And just who would you be talking about, Zakath?

Yorzhik
March 28th, 2005, 09:25 PM
So his own agenda is more important than what the Schindlers want and are asking for.

Nice attitude.
Yes...

More could be said but it's fellowship week.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 09:48 PM
Yes...

More could be said but it's fellowship week.

Personally I'm disinterested in this fellowship week BS, as I don't really "fellowship" with anybody here. (Those I do kinda fellowship with are the outcasts, as it were, so we're already "fellows." Oddfellows, anyway.) If a cat has your tongue, get rid of the **** in boots and say what's on your mind.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 09:53 PM
Good. I'm glad you are pro life.


They are trying to bring attention to this woman's torturous death by Judicial Decree.

Oh. Well have very, patronizingly generous of you.:rolleyes:

How much more attention does this tragedy really need? For crying out loud, Dread, it's frontpage and has been that way for a very long time. The last thing it needs is attention. The story has gotten overhyped, people are saturated with it.

Disregarding the Schindler's wishes just shows that these protestors and loud mouths care about their agenda, not about Terri's parents. They will accomplish nothing but make themselves look like the attention-grabbing windbags they already are, and are upsetting Terri's parents even more than they were before (if possible). These idiots with signs getting arrested are red meat, that's it. Sops. And Terri's parents realize they are doing no good whatsoever. They've asked the crowd to simmer down. The crowd refuses to.

That, my friend, means the lunatics are running the asylum.

Servo
March 29th, 2005, 09:07 AM
Oh. Well have very, patronizingly generous of you.:rolleyes:

How much more attention does this tragedy really need? For crying out loud, Dread, it's frontpage and has been that way for a very long time. The last thing it needs is attention. The story has gotten overhyped, people are saturated with it.

Disregarding the Schindler's wishes just shows that these protestors and loud mouths care about their agenda, not about Terri's parents. They will accomplish nothing but make themselves look like the attention-grabbing windbags they already are, and are upsetting Terri's parents even more than they were before (if possible). These idiots with signs getting arrested are red meat, that's it. Sops. And Terri's parents realize they are doing no good whatsoever. They've asked the crowd to simmer down. The crowd refuses to.


It is obvious that you do not care about Terri, but are you saying that YOU care about Terri's parents?

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 09:41 AM
It is obvious that you do not care about Terri, but are you saying that YOU care about Terri's parents?

Shimei, I am not going to repeat myself here regarding what I think should happen with Terri. (Fine, I'll break down; for the umpteenth time her parents should take over her care.)

This disregard for the Schindler's pleas to chill out just shows the most important thing to Randall Terry and Company is getting fifteen minutes. That's pretty callous, and pretty selfish.

wholearmor
March 29th, 2005, 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by Zakath

I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there.

WA:
If this situation had not been unfolding on camera, Doug McBurney wouldn't have even known about it. I'm pretty sure he wasn't sitting in a director's chair telling the camera operators who to shoot and when.

wholearmor
March 29th, 2005, 10:03 AM
Shimei, I am not going to repeat myself here regarding what I think should happen with Terri. (Fine, I'll break down; for the umpteenth time her parents should take over her care.)

This disregard for the Schindler's pleas to chill out just shows the most important thing to Randall Terry and Company is getting fifteen minutes. That's pretty callous, and pretty selfish.

The Schindler's not doing more to save their daughter is pretty callous and pretty selfish.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by Zakath

I am also of the opinion that if McBurney didn't have a chance of getting on camera, he probably wouldn't be there.

WA:
If this situation had not been unfolding on camera, Doug McBurney wouldn't have even known about it. I'm pretty sure he wasn't sitting in a director's chair telling the camera operators who to shoot and when.IMO, McBurney's just another media hound, chasing publicity. From what I have seen and read there were quite a number of people who quietly demonstrated at the site and didn't mug for the cameras.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:13 AM
How much more attention does this tragedy really need?
Enough attention so that Terri is no longer in danger.



Disregarding the Schindler's wishes just shows that these protestors and loud mouths care about their agenda, not about Terri's parents. They care about Terri more than they care for her parents. To my knowledge her parents and siblings are not being slowly murdered.


They will accomplish nothing but make themselves look like the attention-grabbing windbags they already are, and are upsetting Terri's parents even more than they were before (if possible). I'm sorry her parents are upset but if 300 protestors with dixie cups would have rushed the building, maybe someone could have made a difference. Again, Randall Terry, Doug, and Karl, are not trying to bring attention to themselves, they are trying to bring attention to this poor woman gruesome plight.


That, my friend, means the lunatics are running the asylum.
First, I'm not your friend. I'm just some guy you debate on the internet with. Second, You are right: Lunatics are running the Hospice (which is what you meant to say :rolleyes: )

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:15 AM
First, I'm not your friend. I'm just some guy you debate on the internet with....It is a commonly used figure of speech. I'm sure he was merely trying to get into the spirit of "Fellowship Week". :chuckle:

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:18 AM
IMO, McBurney's just another media hound, chasing publicity. From what I have seen and read there were quite a number of people who quietly demonstrated at the site and didn't mug for the cameras. As I and Shimei have already stated from personal experience, Doug did not do it for the camera. He brought 300 dixie cups and gallons of water for all the protestors to try to take Terri. Doug got arrested for trying to take her water like other before him, and the cameras took pictures of him. It was a good thing he got attention.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 10:19 AM
It is a commonly used figure of speech. I realize that.

I'm sure he was merely trying to get into the spirit of "Fellowship Week". :chuckle:
Maybe he was. :D

wholearmor
March 29th, 2005, 10:21 AM
IMO, McBurney's just another media hound, chasing publicity. From what I have seen and read there were quite a number of people who quietly demonstrated at the site and didn't mug for the cameras.

I really don't think that's truly your opinion. You just don't like Doug McBurney from afar. He wasn't mugging for the cameras in the true sense of the word. He agreed with his daughter that someone should give Terri water and he went down there to do just that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:22 AM
As I and Shimei have already stated from personal experience, Doug did not do it for the camera.In your opinion...


He brought 300 dixie cups and gallons of water for all the protestors to try to take Terri. How nice of him.

Doug got arrested for trying to take her water like other before him, and the cameras took pictures of himSo he watched someone else get arrested on camera, and then jumped at the opportunity for a bit of national media coverage... sounds just like what I was saying, doesn't it?


It was a good thing he got attention.Why was it a good thing that he got attention rather than Terri Schaivo or the Shindlers?

Flipper
March 29th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Yeah, this whole mess could have just been avoided using the Enyart Criterion by not interfering with the natural processes of death when she was arresting on her kitchen floor.

I will be very interested to learn the results of the autopsy.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 11:43 AM
Yeah, this whole mess could have just been avoided using the Enyart Criterion by not interfering with the natural processes of death when she was arresting on her kitchen floor. The "Enyart Criterion"?

Isn't that interesting... where did that one come from? :think:


I will be very interested to learn the results of the autopsy.Ditto. :thumb:

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 11:52 AM
The Schindler's not doing more to save their daughter is pretty callous and pretty selfish.

They have done everything they can possibly do. Short of kidnapping her and hiring a few round the clock nurses there's nothing else to be done. (I'm answering this on the off-chance that this post wasn't steeped in sarcasm; you can never tell.)

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 11:54 AM
Zak wrote:

Why was it a good thing that he got attention rather than Terri Schaivo or the Shindlers?
Because Terri is being murdered, and nothing so far has stopped her murder. Obviously, the attention Terri is getting isn't the right kind, so how do we change the attention that Terri is getting without bring attention to ourselves? If it could be done, we would do it. But it cannot, so it is good that someone was able to.

Wouldn't you bring attention to yourself to stop Terri's murder?

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 11:58 AM
Zak wrote:

The "Enyart Criterion"?
Yes, the "Enyart Criterion" aka "Flipper dreaming about understanding the debate"

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 11:59 AM
Wouldn't you bring attention to yourself to stop Terri's murder?
I would, but Zak's attitude seems to be that he'd jump at the chance to kill her himself.

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 12:00 PM
Dread, that's crap and you know it.

P.S. Is it just me or does the "Enyart Criterion" sound like the name of a bad supermarket novel?

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Zak wrote:

Because Terri is being murdered, and nothing so far has stopped her murder. Obviously, the attention Terri is getting isn't the right kind, so how do we change the attention that Terri is getting without bring attention to ourselves? If it could be done, we would do it. But it cannot, so it is good that someone was able to.So you're saying grabbing the spotlight for a little cheap publicity is the best way to go about this thing?

It seems that's your deity might intervene, but he certainlly doesn't seem to be interested in doing so... You've tried the courts, and that failed too. You tried Congress and the President, and they failed too.

I guess that means that all you Christians have left is media types like McBurney and Terry to try to fix what your deity won't.:rolleyes:


Wouldn't you bring attention to yourself to stop Terri's murder?I am not so egotistical that I believe that bringing any attention to myself would change that situation. :nono:

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 12:05 PM
Dread, that's crap and you know it. Maybe headbanging against a Granite wall has done something to my head... :bang: Whatever. :rolleyes:


P.S. Is it just me or does the "Enyart Criterion" sound like the name of a bad supermarket novel? It sounds like some old forged papers Dan Rather would report on written by a mysterious commie :Commie: named "Flipper".....

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Yeah, this whole mess could have just been avoided using the Enyart Criterion by not interfering with the natural processes of death when she was arresting on her kitchen floor. Did you just make this up or what? :confused:

Of course we can’t always determine immediately the extent of damage, and if we don’t revive someone who can perhaps fully recover over time, then the default position is that they should die because of an unhealthy bias against revival. From what you’ve written, I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone, but not wrong to let a dying man die. However, I’d like to try to pull you further to the side of erring on the side of life even in those precious moments when life-saving actions must be taken.

Quoted from this post (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=702123&postcount=34).

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 12:31 PM
Dread, that's crap and you know it.

P.S. Is it just me or does the "Enyart Criterion" sound like the name of a bad supermarket novel?Yeah, it does sound like badly contrived fiction.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 12:47 PM
I am not so egotistical that I believe that bringing any attention to myself would change that situation.
If it could be done without bringing attention to yourself, as we would also do if possible, wouldn't you do it to stop Terri's murder?

Thia
March 29th, 2005, 01:19 PM
[QUOTE This disregard for the Schindler's pleas to chill out just shows the most important thing to Randall Terry and Company is getting fifteen minutes. That's pretty callous, and pretty selfish.[/QUOTE]

Typical addictive behaviour on the part of the obnoxious protestors - "It's all about me! I have faith but no reason! Come on down and join the Band of Bobbies!" Let the Schiavos mourn their daughter in peace. It's obvious they're suffering terribly.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 02:08 PM
Typical addictive behaviour on the part of the obnoxious protestors - "It's all about me! I have faith but no reason! Come on down and join the Band of Bobbies!"
Get a clue. Just admit that you are trying to fit in with the likes of Granite, Zakath, and avatar382. You obviously couldn't care less about Terri, and side with the muderers. :doh:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Yeah, it does sound like badly contrived fiction.
A Ludlum novel to be precise...

From Turbo's citation of St. Bob the Broadcaster...

I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone, but not wrong to let a dying man die.
Perhaps that is what Flipper is referring to; or perhaps not. When he comes back, we'll find out.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 03:43 PM
Anyway, it's all old news... McBurney's got big-time competition for the spotlight now...

link (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=707251&postcount=225)
The Reverend Jesse Jackson has entered the ring...

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 03:52 PM
Perhaps that is what Flipper is referring to; or perhaps not. When he comes back, we'll find out.
Nice of you to take that sentence out of context on Flipper's behalf.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 03:54 PM
Nice of you to take that sentence out of context on Flipper's behalf.
I'm quite content to let my favorite cetacean type for himself... :thumb:

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 03:55 PM
Get a clue. Just admit that you are trying to fit in with the likes of Granite, Zakath, and avatar382. You obviously couldn't care less about Terri, and side with the muderers. :doh:

I side with her parents, not these publicity-hungry freaks getting arrested for ten minutes of airtime.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 04:00 PM
I side with her parents, not these publicity-hungry freaks getting arrested for ten minutes of airtime.
Did you hear about the latest media hound to show up to get their bit of spotlight?
None other than the Reverend Jesse Jackson... invited by the Schindlers... :doh:

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 04:00 PM
Flipper stated that Enyart would support withholding treatment from someone who was "arresting on her kitchen floor."

Zakath, based on the quotes in post #84, do you agree that Flipper mischaracterized Enyart's beliefs (whether intentionally or not)?

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 04:06 PM
Flipper stated that Enyart would support withholding treatment from someone who was "arresting on her kitchen floor."

Zakath, based on the quotes in post #84, do you agree that Flipper mischaracterized Enyart's beliefs (whether intentionally or not)?Short answer: I'm not sure. :think:

It depends entirely on how one interprets Enyart's own words: "... I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone, but not wrong to let a dying man die." There are several ways he could mean it. The context of your quote is insufficient for me to ascertain a possible fuller meaning of what Enyart does or does not believe with any reasonable probability of being correct...

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 04:12 PM
Short answer: I'm not sure. :think:

The context of your quote is insufficient for me to ascertain a possible fuller meaning of what Enyart does or does not believe...So even after reading this:
Of course we can’t always determine immediately the extent of damage, and if we don’t revive someone who can perhaps fully recover over time, then the default position is that they should die because of an unhealthy bias against revival. ...and this:
However, I’d like to try to pull you further to the side of erring on the side of life even in those precious moments when life-saving actions must be taken....you just can't figure it out. OK. Thanks for clarifying.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 04:14 PM
So even after reading this:...and this:...you just can't figure it out. OK. Thanks for clarifying.You're welcome. :thumb:

Perhaps Enyart's writing is not as clear to some of us as it is to some of his followers...

Thia
March 29th, 2005, 04:14 PM
Get a clue. Just admit that you are trying to fit in with the likes of Granite, Zakath, and avatar382. You obviously couldn't care less about Terri, and side with the muderers. :doh:

...and you are an arrogant kook. I don't need to 'fit in' with anyone, buddy. Believe me.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 04:40 PM
...and you are an arrogant kook. Riiiiight. That's me alright. :dunce: I'm a kook because I believe that murder is wrong and that Terri should live. :hammer:

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 04:58 PM
Anyone noticing the signature trend Wamba set off? :chuckle: :thumb:

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 05:06 PM
Short answer: I'm not sure. :think:

It depends entirely on how one interprets Enyart's own words: "... I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone, but not wrong to let a dying man die." There are several ways he could mean it. The context of your quote is insufficient for me to ascertain a possible fuller meaning of what Enyart does or does not believe with any reasonable probability of being correct...
As you said to someone earlier today, "Are you honestly this dense or are you just jerking my chain?"

What's odd is that you go out of your way to misunderstand the second half of the sentence...

"...but not wrong to let a dying man die."
...while you don't even agree with the first half:

" I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone..."

:think:

Servo
March 29th, 2005, 05:22 PM
Shimei, I am not going to repeat myself here regarding what I think should happen with Terri. (Fine, I'll break down; for the umpteenth time her parents should take over her care.)

This disregard for the Schindler's pleas to chill out just shows the most important thing to Randall Terry and Company is getting fifteen minutes. That's pretty callous, and pretty selfish.

The precedent that this murder sets is bigger than both Terri AND her parents' desire that the protesters would "chill". Even with that being said, saving Terri is more important than upsetting the parents.

Still, why are you more concerned with the parents being upset than you are with Terri being murdered?

Servo
March 29th, 2005, 05:36 PM
So you're saying grabbing the spotlight for a little cheap publicity is the best way to go about this thing?

I guess that means that all you Christians have left is media types like McBurney and Terry to try to fix what your deity won't.:rolleyes:)


Again, I have personally seen Doug and Karl on different occasions do this same type of protesting without a camera anywhere in sight.

BTW, are you more upset that Doug got his picture taken, or that Terri is being starved to death?

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 05:37 PM
Zak wrote:
A Ludlum novel to be precise...
No kidding. Having read most of the Bourne books, I have to say this is a first in history where the movie is better than the book. How did Ludlum get to be considered such a great writer?

Holly
March 29th, 2005, 06:12 PM
Wow, there is so much to respond to here! I agree with those who have said that this issue is much bigger than Terri's tragic situation. I wonder why there is so little attention paid to other cases that seem every bit as worthy of attention and support. For example, I haven't seen anything here about Sun Hudson, the precious little 6-month-old baby who was recently cut off life support over the objection of his family, all because they couldn't afford to pay the hospital bill!

ShadowMaid
March 29th, 2005, 06:15 PM
Wow, there is so much to respond to here! I agree with those who have said that this issue is much bigger than Terri's tragic situation. I wonder why there is so little attention paid to other cases that seem every bit as worthy of attention and support. For example, I haven't seen anything here about Sun Hudson, the precious little 6-month-old baby who was recently cut off life support over the objection of his family, all because they couldn't afford to pay the hospital bill!

You can start a thread for that, if you like.

JoyfulRook
March 29th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Good idea ShadowMaid. And Welcome to TOL Holly!

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 08:29 PM
As you said to someone earlier today, "Are you honestly this dense or are you just jerking my chain?"

What's odd is that you go out of your way to misunderstand the second half of the sentence...

"...but not wrong to let a dying man die."
...while you don't even agree with the first half:

" I think that you and I agree that it is wrong to kill someone..."

:think:I attempted to explain to you that your snippet of Enyart's post was insufficent for me to accurately discern what his point was. I've read enough of his maunderings over the years I've posted here to know whether or not I've got enough material to understand a point he's attempting to make.

You can either accept that or not. :shrug:

All the sarcasm and disdain you attempt to muster will not change my ability to decipher Enyart's writing. :rolleyes:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 08:32 PM
Again, I have personally seen Doug and Karl on different occasions do this same type of protesting without a camera anywhere in sight.I am assuming "Doug" is McBurney. Who is Karl? :confused:


BTW, are you more upset that Doug got his picture taken, or that Terri is being starved to death?I'm upset that people like McBurney and Terry and Jackson are attempting to capitalize off of the sufferings of others. Of course they are adherents of a religious view that stresses just that, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.
:rolleyes:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 08:33 PM
Zak wrote:
No kidding. Having read most of the Bourne books, I have to say this is a first in history where the movie is better than the book. How did Ludlum get to be considered such a great writer?I'm not sure, but I've always found his work a geat antidote for insomnia. ;)

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 09:15 PM
I'm not sure, but I've always found his work a geat antidote for insomnia.
I've been using the Ludlum method to get to sleep occasionally for the last 2 weeks. It never lets me down.

Yorzhik
March 29th, 2005, 09:17 PM
I'm upset that people like McBurney and Terry and Jackson are attempting to capitalize off of the sufferings of others.
And which are you more upset about? McBurney/Henderson/Terry/Jackson's actions? or Terri being murdered?

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:21 PM
And which are you more upset about? McBurney/Henderson/Terry/Jackson's actions? or Terri being murdered?Since I don't think Mrs. Shiavo is being murdered, that's a moot question.

By default, I'm more irritated by the antics of the three stooges. :rolleyes:

Turbo
March 29th, 2005, 09:28 PM
Since I don't think Mrs. Shiavo is being murdered, that's a moot question.

Right, Zakath thinks it's okay to kill an innocent person so long as the government signs off on it.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Right, Zakath thinks it's okay to kill an innocent person so long as the government signs off on it.
She is in the condition of brain damage due mainly to her own actions. Her inability to eat and drink is part of that condition. The court has merely decided to "let nature take its course". Perhaps it should have done so years ago... but then none of us are prescient.

If a drug addict overdosed on his/her drug and produced a similar PVS condition would you support using extraordinary means to keep them alive for a decade and a half?

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 06:59 AM
The precedent that this murder sets is bigger than both Terri AND her parents' desire that the protesters would "chill". Even with that being said, saving Terri is more important than upsetting the parents.

Still, why are you more concerned with the parents being upset than you are with Terri being murdered?

I'm not. But dragging in Randall Terry and Jesse Jackson, of all people, makes a bad situation even worse.

On Fire
March 30th, 2005, 07:16 AM
People are not vegetables not matter how helpless they are.

Turbo
March 30th, 2005, 07:46 AM
She is in the condition of brain damage due mainly to her own actions. Her inability to eat and drink is part of that condition. The court has merely decided to "let nature take its course".
If your son cracked his head open while attempting to do a dangerous trick on his bike, would you call an ambulance and try to save him, or would you "let nature take its course?"

If your daughter slashed her own wrists in your presence, would you call an ambulance and try to save her, or would you "let nature take its course?"


If a drug addict overdosed on his/her drug and produced a similar PVS condition would you support using extraordinary means to keep them alive for a decade and a half?If by "extraordinary means" you mean "give him food and water," then yes. :duh:

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 08:05 AM
People are not vegetables not matter how helpless they are.

If the lights aren't on they're certainly not what or who they used to be.

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 08:17 AM
If by "extraordinary means" you mean "give him food and water," then yes. :duh:Means requiring intervention by health care providers for the decade and a half...

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 08:20 AM
People are not vegetables not matter how helpless they are.
Yes, I agree. People are no more "vegetables" than they are "demons", "dogs", or "animals"...
Those are metaphorical terms used to describe some set of characteristics about the people being discussed. Unfortunately for reality, those metaphors seem to take on a life of their own over the years.

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 08:24 AM
If your son cracked his head open while attempting to do a dangerous trick on his bike, would you call an ambulance and try to save him, or would you "let nature take its course?"His action was an accident, not illegal, nor long-term. Even if it were your child, I would call an ambulance.


If your daughter slashed her own wrists in your presence, would you call an ambulance and try to save her, or would you "let nature take its course?" I know enough first aid to deal with that situation, unless she had managed to bleed herself out. I would say that it depends entirely on why she slashed her wrists.


If by "extraordinary means" you mean "give him food and water," then yes. Normally "giving food and water", at least by mouth is not considered "extraordinary means". Using feeding tubes for decades, is.

On Fire
March 30th, 2005, 09:00 AM
If the lights aren't on they're certainly not what or who they used to be.
But how convenient to call them "vegetables". We wouldn't starve an actual human being to death, would we?!?! NO!!!!! But a vegetable.....who cares!

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 09:27 AM
But how convenient to call them "vegetables". We wouldn't starve an actual human being to death, would we?!?! NO!!!!! But a vegetable.....who cares!

It's a matter of semantics. Besides, it's not a technical/medical term, but just layman's parlance.