PDA

View Full Version : The Walk-Away



ApologeticJedi
March 22nd, 2005, 09:12 PM
I agree with those that say that one cannot loose one's own salvation through sin. I don't believe we were saved on the basis of our lack of sin, so it makes little sense that we could loose our salvation by sinning.

What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation?

Mr. 5020
March 22nd, 2005, 09:35 PM
I guess that depends on whether or not humans have free will, right Christine?

ShadowMaid
March 22nd, 2005, 09:38 PM
When people walk away, I'm pretty sure it's because they no longer want to believe there is a God. Not just because they don't want to spend the rest of eternity with Him.

ApologeticJedi
March 22nd, 2005, 10:03 PM
Mr. 5020 said: “I guess that depends on whether or not humans have free will, right Christine?”


Good point.

I suppose my inquiry pre-supposes the free-will position. But for free-willers, what is the answer? Can someone loose their salvation by walking away?




ShadowMaid said "When people walk away, I'm pretty sure it's because they no longer want to believe there is a God. Not just because they don't want to spend the rest of eternity with Him. "



I think that's probably one reason people walk-away is that they cease beleiving in God. However it's too convenient to assume everyone has the exact same motives. I think some honestly don't want to live with God.

Sozo
March 22nd, 2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi

I agree with those that say that one cannot loose one's own salvation through sin. I don't believe we were saved on the basis of our lack of sin, so it makes little sense that we could loose our salvation by sinning.

What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation?

No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own. The life that they have is the life of God, and Jesus said that those who have the life will NEVER perish. If they perished through an act or will of their own then Jesus would be wrong, and He is not.

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Sozo

No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own. The life that they have is the life of God, and Jesus said that those who have the life will NEVER perish. If they perished through an act or will of their own then Jesus would be wrong, and He is not.

I agree. It is impossible to be 'unborn' spiritually, just as it is impossible to be 'unborn' physically. That is why Jesus used the term 'born again'.

There are a myriad of reasons that someone would 'walk away from the faith', and usually it is because the person was not discipled properly (or at all for that matter) and does not understand the goodness of God. As humans, our feelings change, but God never changes. Most people live life by their feelings instead of faith. Christians should be taught to focus on what Christ did for them, not what they are doing for Christ. Too many Christians get saved and never grow, so when life throws them curveballs, they throw up their hands and walk away because they were never given the tools and instruction to run their race.

Crow
March 23rd, 2005, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Sold Out

I agree. It is impossible to be 'unborn' spiritually, just as it is impossible to be 'unborn' physically. That is why Jesus used the term 'born again'.

There are a myriad of reasons that someone would 'walk away from the faith', and usually it is because the person was not discipled properly (or at all for that matter) and does not understand the goodness of God. As humans, our feelings change, but God never changes. Most people live life by their feelings instead of faith. Christians should be taught to focus on what Christ did for them, not what they are doing for Christ. Too many Christians get saved and never grow, so when life throws them curveballs, they throw up their hands and walk away because they were never given the tools and instruction to run their race.
I've known quite a few people who left Christianity at some point, myself included. The most frequent reason I've heard was "because it just isn't true." You've got some of those ex-Christians who left and became atheists on this board--some who returned and some who didn't. Some who I think (I can't know for sure) were actually saved, and some who never were.

I know a few of the stories. You might want to ask some of them. If nothing else, it can be a pretty good warning to Christians who think that they are doing Christ's work, but in reality mucking things up--I'm not speaking of anyone in particular.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 10:24 AM
You never know what's in a person's heart.

Rimi
March 23rd, 2005, 10:48 AM
I've not walked away from my faith, but I've left "fellowshipping" and going to church because of other Christians. Never because of Christ Jesus. Most Christians can't handle questions because they're afraid to really see what they believe, to see if it will stand, so t hey rebuff the one asking questions. Some don't like questions because they think you're stupid for asking in the first place, and gee isn't it obvious what the answer is! I know some who've left but it wasn't because they didn't really believe the truth of the Gospels. They were/are just angry with Christians and for God for "letting it happen". In their anger and loneliness, they say their atheists, but they believe in God more than some Christians I've met.

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi
I think that's probably one reason people walk-away is that they cease beleiving in God. However it's too convenient to assume everyone has the exact same motives. I think some honestly don't want to live with God.

I think that's a good probability. But as Sozo, Sold Out, and Crow have already said, God would not reject his own Body (of believers). Also, as Crow said, some people who "leave God," might not have ever been "with Him."

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi
...What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation? I'm probably one of those to whom Crow was referring...

I walked away.

Or, from my point of view, I gradually moved to a position where I believed it was all a delusion.

I've not been presented with a single shred of convincing evidence to the contrary in more than ten years.

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Zakath

I'm probably one of those to whom Crow was referring...

I walked away.

Or, from my point of view, I gradually moved to a position where I believed it was all a delusion.

I've not been presented with a single shred of convincing evidence to the contrary in more than ten years.

What was the deciding factor that caused you to walk away?

About 12 yrs ago, after my father-in-law was diagnosed with AIDS, my husband went off the deep end. He said he didn't believe in God anymore, stopped going to church, and basically turned his back on Christianity. It was horrible. He went on like that for over a year. He was a different person.

Right before his dad died, he started to come back to himself. Slowly but surely he started going to church with me. I had to have the patience of Job during all of this! It took YEARS for him to finally tell me why he did what he did. He was questioning God and he was mad at Him for taking his dad away. That's what children do, they get mad at their parents and stop talking to them. My husband was being childish and finally decided to face facts - his dad did something to cause his illness and it was not God being unfair to my husband. Don't we all face God mad with our fists up in the air? Of course! And that's what He wants to do so that we can have an honest relationship with Him.

Now I don't know if it was something like this that caused you to question Christianity, but I thought I'd throw it in, maybe (hopefully) to encourage someone else who's mad at God right now.

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 11:33 AM
Many "claiming" Christians walk away from religion, but that is all it is. They have a relationship with religion, holding to a form of godliness or morality, but they have never received His life, they deny the power of the gospel. Salvation is new life in Christ, not mental assent. Unless you are known by Him, you have walked away from something (religion, another Jesus or gospel), but it is not salvation. Salvation is past tense in those who have come to Christ by grace through faith, and it is beyond the possibilty to be undone. Again, read His lips...

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith."

NO ONE can perish that has eternal life.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Sold Out

What was the deciding factor that caused you to walk away?

... Thank you for sharing.

My disbelief is not based on any trauma or tragedy. Nothing spectacular. :nono:

After almost thirty years of studying Christian scriptures and theology I came to a gradual realization that I had been lied to, or at least been sold a "bill of goods" by people who were sincere, but sincerely wrong.

The more I examined the teachings of Christianity, the more difficulty I had in ignoring the cognitive dissonance I required to believe. Eventually I released the "belief" in YHWH completely and began exploring other religions. I ended up with the same conclusion in every religion I have yet investigated - they are all based on human desire and psychological projection, not empirical reality.

Eventually, I moved to my present position of atheism. There I will likely stay, until some deity manifests him/herself in a convincing fashion.

No frustration; and no anger at someone who isn't there. :shrug:

Just the awesome realization that I'm responsible for my making my own life meaningful and successful, not some supernatural entity... :D

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi

I agree with those that say that one cannot loose one's own salvation through sin. I don't believe we were saved on the basis of our lack of sin, so it makes little sense that we could loose our salvation by sinning.

What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation?

Time for a paradigm shift. Hang on this could be a little
rough going . \\\\^^^^?////

There, shift complete.

Life begins a birth, not death. The joys of salvation;
surrendering one's self will to Christ, living in the
eternal kingdom, looking forward to eternal life,
experiencing others through the eyes of Christ, all
are experienced here and now.

If one "walks away," then one longer participates
in sharing, enjoying the fruits of salvation.

As for what happens after death, that's up to God. For
here and now, accepting the gift and living the gift means
participating in the Kingdom here and now. To walk
away is to leave the Kingdom, here and now...

Dave

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 12:06 PM
The bible makes it clear that those who are believers, and are saved by grace through faith, know God and are known by Him.

Please tell us Zakath, since you "claim" to have once been a Christian, when did you know Him whom you now claim does not exist?

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

The bible makes it clear that those who are believers, and are saved by grace through faith, know God and are known by Him.

Please tell us Zakath, since you "claim" to have once been a Christian, when did you know Him whom you now claim does not exist? I "knew him" in the same surety that John Nash believed he was working for the U.S. government as a code breaker. In other words, as surely as you think you know him. ;)

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 12:13 PM
Nice analogy.:thumb:

For me it was a death in the family, then a burning experience by an abusive church...between the two of those it was enough to get me thinking. And reading. Which, from a dogmatic Christian standpoint, is NEVER a good sign.

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

I "knew him" in the same surety that John Nash believed he was working for the U.S. government as a code breaker. The reality is... you are as deluded now, as you were then. Nothing has changed.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

The reality is... you are as deluded now, as you were then. Nothing has changed. Not at all... "I was blind, but now I see..." :D

I don't need to live in a universe inhabited by fairies, ghoulies, and ghosties. Perhaps you do... :think:

Crow
March 23rd, 2005, 12:23 PM
For me, I went to a highly works-oriented church with abominable teachings. I wasn't saved, and didn't know what it meant. I walked away from Christianity because nearly everything I was taught about God by my fellow Christians was an easily refuted untruth, salvation by works and the expectations of miracles chief among them. I wanted to believe, but I couldn't believe a bunch of conflicting stuff.

When I finally got decent teaching, it all came together for me, and with hearing scriptures make sense, I believed.

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

Not at all... "I was blind, but now I see..." :D

I don't need to live in a universe inhabited by fairies, ghoulies, and ghosties. Either way, eventually, you will spend an eternity with them.

:flamer: :devil: :flamer:
:devil: :zakath: :devil:
:flamer: :devil: :flamer:

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 12:32 PM
As you pew grovelers are fond of saying to the apostates, Sozo: keep telling yourself that.

:devil:

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 12:33 PM
Profound as usual, So-slow. :rolleyes:

Gerald
March 23rd, 2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

The bible makes it clear that those who are believers, and are saved by grace through faith, know God and are known by Him.

Please tell us Zakath, since you "claim" to have once been a Christian, when did you know Him whom you now claim does not exist? When did you "know", Sozo?

Give the date, time, and circumstances of your epiphany.

PureX
March 23rd, 2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi I agree with those that say that one cannot loose one's own salvation through sin. I don't believe we were saved on the basis of our lack of sin, so it makes little sense that we could loose our salvation by sinning.

What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation? "Salvation" isn't magic, it's a process. We can participate in that process, and be changed by it, or we can refuse to participate in it and not be changed. It's up to us.

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Time for a paradigm shift. Hang on this could be a little
rough going . \\\\^^^^?////

There, shift complete.

Life begins a birth, not death. The joys of salvation;
surrendering one's self will to Christ, living in the
eternal kingdom, looking forward to eternal life,
experiencing others through the eyes of Christ, all
are experienced here and now.

If one "walks away," then one longer participates
in sharing, enjoying the fruits of salvation.

As for what happens after death, that's up to God. For
here and now, accepting the gift and living the gift means
participating in the Kingdom here and now. To walk
away is to leave the Kingdom, here and now...

Dave

Why is it that my brilliant observations are always washed
out by Sozo's nonsensical name calling banterings?

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by PureX

"Salvation" isn't magic, it's a process. Not according to some Evangelicals, it isn't.

"Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved!"

Push-pull, click-click, one saint that quick!

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 02:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by PureX

"Salvation" isn't magic, it's a process.


Not according to some Evangelicals, it isn't.

"Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved!"

Push-pull, click-click, one saint that quick!


It can be either. Salvation is the opening of one's eyes and heart
to the Grace of God, and the greatful acceptance of this free Gift.
For some its an epiphonous moment, for others its a learning process.

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Zakath
Eventually, I moved to my present position of atheism. There I will likely stay, until some deity manifests him/herself in a convincing fashion.


How about this....I'll pray that you get a 'burning bush' encounter with God. Who knows......

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Crow

For me, I went to a highly works-oriented church with abominable teachings. I wasn't saved, and didn't know what it meant. I walked away from Christianity because nearly everything I was taught about God by my fellow Christians was an easily refuted untruth, salvation by works and the expectations of miracles chief among them. I wanted to believe, but I couldn't believe a bunch of conflicting stuff.

When I finally got decent teaching, it all came together for me, and with hearing scriptures make sense, I believed.


Amen.....and don't think for a second that those people who discouraged you from faith in Christ won't answer for what they did.

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Time for a paradigm shift. Hang on this could be a little
rough going . \\\\^^^^?////

There, shift complete.

Life begins a birth, not death. The joys of salvation;
surrendering one's self will to Christ, living in the
eternal kingdom, looking forward to eternal life,
experiencing others through the eyes of Christ, all
are experienced here and now.

If one "walks away," then one longer participates
in sharing, enjoying the fruits of salvation.

As for what happens after death, that's up to God. For
here and now, accepting the gift and living the gift means
participating in the Kingdom here and now. To walk
away is to leave the Kingdom, here and now...

Dave

Dave, how long did it take for you to be born?

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Why is it that my brilliant observations are always washed
out by Sozo's nonsensical name calling banterings? I wasn't calling anyone "names" until now, you pathetic pervert.

I'd tell you to kiss my rear, but you would jump all over that opportunity.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Sold Out

How about this....I'll pray that you get a 'burning bush' encounter with God. Who knows...... Been there, done that. But, as you say, "who knows"? Perhaps, if there's a deity, he'll listen to your prayers...

Gerald
March 23rd, 2005, 02:18 PM
What am I bet that Sozo makes like a clam about his epiphany...?

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 02:24 PM
I'll take some of that, Gerald. Place your bets, gentlemen...

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

What am I bet that Sozo makes like a clam about his epiphany...? I won't take that bet. ;)

"If a man wants to bet you that the ace of spades will spit cider in your eye, get out your hankerchief, and your wallet" :)

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Sold Out

Dave, how long did it take for you to be born?

In the flesh, I'm told it took several hours.

I the Spirit, it took several years of learning and
contemplation which culminated in an epiphonous
encounter with the Holy Spirit.

Where are you coming from here?

Dave

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

I wasn't calling anyone "names" until now, you pathetic pervert.

I'd tell you to kiss my rear, but you would jump all over that opportunity.

Spoken by someone who clearly knows what its like to
have "never been a Christian." Hence his ability to judge
the hearts of others.

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Nice analogy.:thumb:

For me it was a death in the family, then a burning experience by an abusive church...between the two of those it was enough to get me thinking. And reading. Which, from a dogmatic Christian standpoint, is NEVER a good sign.

Many people turn away because of church. But leave the church, don't turn away from God. There are many screwballs in today's churches. I rarely go to church myself, since the church is so feminized.

If I lived in Denver, I would go to Denver Bible church!

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
If I lived in Denver, I would go to Denver Bible church!

:thumb:

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
...If I lived in Denver, I would go to Denver Bible church! :shut:

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Sold Out

How about this....I'll pray that you get a 'burning bush' encounter with God. Who knows......

Too bad too many people are looking for just that, it will never happen.

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

Too bad too many people are looking for just that, it will never happen.

Even if it did happen, would they believe? :think:

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Even if it did happen, would they believe? :think:

HA! Good point.
Reading though the Bible, it would appear very much NOT!

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

:shut:

I know, I know, the debate June '03.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Even if it did happen, would they believe? :think: I imagine that would depend entirely on the individual experiencing the event...

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

HA! Good point.
Reading though the Bible, it would appear very much NOT!

Funny how that works, huh.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

I know, I know, the debate June '03. Nope. I would have reservations about the character of the leadership of that organization, not Enyart's debating ability (or lack of it). ;)

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Funny how that works, huh. Sad how religionists make excuses for the deity's infamous "no show" policy.

:chuckle:

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

I imagine that would depend entirely on the individual experiencing the event...

Yes, and it seems that most individuals entirely decided not to believe.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Yes, and it seems that most individuals entirely decided not to believe. "Most individuals"??? You base that on... ???

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

"Most individuals"??? You base that on... ???

It's in the Bible. :)

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

Many people turn away because of church. But leave the church, don't turn away from God. There are many screwballs in today's churches. I rarely go to church myself, since the church is so feminized.

If I lived in Denver, I would go to Denver Bible church!

I haven't turned away from God; I'm looking and studying everything I can get my hands on.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

It's in the Bible. :) Citation, please... :)

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

It's in the Bible. :)

Pleasant thought. Most of those made in God's own image will be tortured for eternity. Thanks for the feel-good thought of the day...

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

Citation, please... :)

There isn't an exact Bible passage that states, "And even when God did miricles, most didn't believe." It's part of a study through the whole Bible.

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Pleasant thought. Most of those made in God's own image will be tortured for eternity. Thanks for the feel-good thought of the day...

I don't ever recall saying that.

Do you actually believe there is a Hell?

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:19 PM
ShadowMaid, you said:

"Yes, and it seems that most individuals entirely decided not to believe."

Now, if I follow, if "most" people "don't believe," this means that "most" people will face an eternity of hell when they die.

Yes or no?

(And no, I seriously doubt the Christian concocted witch's brew called "hell" exists in anything but a few fevered, medieval minds. Thanks for asking.)

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

Citation, please... :)

Study the responses most had after most of the miracles occurred in the Bible.

Here is one:


Luke 17:
12Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13And they lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
14So when He saw them, He said to them, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.

15And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.

17So Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?"

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

Study the responses most had after most of the miracles occurred in the Bible.

Here is one:


Luke 17:
12Then as He entered a certain village, there met Him ten men who were lepers, who stood afar off. 13And they lifted up their voices and said, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
14So when He saw them, He said to them, "Go, show yourselves to the priests." And so it was that as they went, they were cleansed.

15And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, returned, and with a loud voice glorified God, 16and fell down on his face at His feet, giving Him thanks. And he was a Samaritan.

17So Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But where are the nine? 18Were there not any found who returned to give glory to God except this foreigner?"

Thanks for the clarification.

So, a few billion souls and counting in hades. Giddy up.

:devil:

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

There isn't an exact Bible passage that states, "And even when God did miricles, most didn't believe." Of course not...


It's part of a study through the whole Bible. So it's someone's interpretation of "what god really meant to say."

Well I just got done with Ninnyvay where she chastised me for listening to men... sorry, no dice. ;)

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Thanks for the clarification.

So, a few billion souls and counting in hades. Giddy up.

:devil:

MIRACLES generally foster unbelief. It is not to say that people will reject altogether God and His Son. It is still up to the individual to decide.

Sold Out
March 23rd, 2005, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Dave Miller

In the flesh, I'm told it took several hours.

I the Spirit, it took several years of learning and
contemplation which culminated in an epiphonous
encounter with the Holy Spirit.

Where are you coming from here?

Dave

So on your birth certificate is a specific date, time and place of your birth, right?

Jesus said 'you must be born again'....being born is not a years long process, and you cannot birth yourself, so yes, there is a moment in time when someone accepts the gospel and is saved. For me it was June 1977 at age 6. I remember it like it was yesterday.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

MIRACLES generally foster unbelief. It is not to say that people will reject altogether God and His Son. It is still up to the individual to decide.

Ah. And what did Abraham tell Dives about people who saw miracles?

If they didn't believe Moses and the prophets, they won't believe even if their own brother or Lazarus came back from the dead. In our case, we have Moses, the law, the prophets, and the resurrection. On top of your supposed miracles. And Christianity still does not sway the majority of mankind.

Christianity by implication teaches that the majority of mankind is doomed to hell. And following your reasoning a miracle like the resurrection is the worst thing that could have happened.

Zakath
March 23rd, 2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

MIRACLES generally foster unbelief... So that was why YHWH used Pharaoh as an object lesson, eh? So Israel wouldn't believe????

ShadowMaid
March 23rd, 2005, 03:31 PM
MIRACLES generally foster unbelief. It is not to say that people will reject altogether God and His Son. It is still up to the individual to decide.

:o What Shimei said.

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

And following your reasoning a miracle like the resurrection is the worst thing that could have happened.

No, it was the best thing that could have happened. It was the ultimate sacrifice. God sacrificed His only Son for us!

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

No, it was the best thing that could have happened. It was the ultimate sacrifice. God sacrificed His only Son for us!

As a "miracle" it's done more to foster unbelief than anything else imaginable.

Gerald
March 23rd, 2005, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by granite1010
Christianity by implication teaches that the majority of mankind is doomed to hell. And following your reasoning a miracle like the resurrection is the worst thing that could have happened. Well, you know, separating the sheep from the goats and all that... :chuckle:

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

So that was why YHWH used Pharaoh as an object lesson, eh? So Israel wouldn't believe????


As a nation, they generally did not. Miracles were not all that common either. Israel was God’s spoke nation, and there was a job to be done.

BTW, have you seen any miracles lately?

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

As a "miracle" it's done more to foster unbelief than anything else imaginable.

That is up to you.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

That is up to you.

Not particularly, considering Pharaoh's heart wasn't hardened entirely of his own volition.

As I recall a certain foreign sky god had a LOT to do with the hardening.

Ecumenicist
March 23rd, 2005, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Sold Out

So on your birth certificate is a specific date, time and place of your birth, right?

Jesus said 'you must be born again'....being born is not a years long process, and you cannot birth yourself, so yes, there is a moment in time when someone accepts the gospel and is saved. For me it was June 1977 at age 6. I remember it like it was yesterday.

Good for you!

But its flawed to think that your experience sets the
standard for everyone else's experience.

Some say you have to speak in tongues.

Some say you have to handle snakes, and
drink arsenic.

Paul might have said that you have to be struck blind,
because that was his experience, but he doesn't say that.

Spiritual rebirth is different than physical birth.

take care,

Dave

Turbo
March 23rd, 2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Because a Christian is one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Did you have one?


Originally posted by granite1010

A "personal relationship" with an invisible deity happens to strike a lot of people as pretty impersonal, FYI.


Originally posted by Turbo

Translation: "No."


Originally posted by granite1010

Agreed. It's impossible to have a "relationship" with the figure known as Jesus Christ. Considering his existence is in doubt, on top of the fact that even if a "Jesus" lived he certainly is not who the church says he is, a "personal relationship" with him is a euphemism for "self-inflicted delusion of the mind."

You're right, Turbo, so right. I didn't have a relationship with Jesus. Got me!:chuckle:


http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=630637#post630637

Servo
March 23rd, 2005, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Not particularly, considering Pharaoh's heart wasn't hardened entirely of his own volition.

As I recall a certain foreign sky god had a LOT to do with the hardening.

Pharaoh's heart was already hard; having truth shoved in your face will either break you down and soften your heart or make it harder. Pharaoh had a choice, he could have repented.

Granite
March 23rd, 2005, 04:15 PM
Turbo, I don't understand the point of post 75.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2005, 04:57 PM
That's okay.

PureX
March 23rd, 2005, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Zakath Not according to some Evangelicals, it isn't.

"Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved!"

Push-pull, click-click, one saint that quick! Yeah, and we all can see what saints they are! *smile*

ApologeticJedi
March 23rd, 2005, 07:47 PM
Sozo said: “No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own.”


Those who are not in Christ have also been purchased, they just “deny the one who bought them”.

So you believe God forces people to live with Him who decide they don’t want a relationship with Him? Why then, didn’t he force the angels to live with him?

Sozo
March 23rd, 2005, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by ApologeticJedi

Sozo said: “No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own.”


Those who are not in Christ have also been purchased, they just “deny the one who bought them”.

So you believe God forces people to live with Him who decide they don’t want a relationship with Him? Why then, didn’t he force the angels to live with him? First of all, the angels have not been purchased. Angels are angels, not men. Should we discuss cats & dogs too?

Secondly, I believe my points have been made, and are indisputable. Either Jesus is telling the truth or He is lying. Which one do you believe?

Also, unless you are in Christ you have not been redeemed.

No one who is in Christ will decide not to have a relationship with Him, it is not even an option for them to do so.

I really question if a high percentage of the people on this site have ever come to understand what it means to be saved.

Lighthouse
March 24th, 2005, 10:29 PM
What Sozo said.

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 07:35 AM
Pharaoh's heart was already hard; having truth shoved in your face will either break you down and soften your heart or make it harder. Pharaoh had a choice, he could have repented.IIRC, doesn't the text indicate that, on at least one occasion, Pharaoh wanted to let Israel go, but YHWH "hardened his heart" so that he did not do so - i.e. that YHWH did something not in line with Pharaoh's will... :think:

Turbo
March 25th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Zakath, you are not correctly recalling the Biblical story, but you may be correctly recalling what some Calvinist teachers taught you.

Saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is no different than saying that God made Pharaoh mad. People often get mad when they are shown definitively to be wrong (surely you can relate), but it's not that those who proved them wrong forced them to become bitte, angry, or spiteful.

It's not like God sprinkled magical hardening dust on Pharaoh's heart. Why would God command Pharaoh (through Moses) to let His people go, and then force Pharaoh to disobey? :hammer:

Servo
March 25th, 2005, 09:13 AM
IIRC, doesn't the text indicate that, on at least one occasion, Pharaoh wanted to let Israel go, but YHWH "hardened his heart" so that he did not do so - i.e. that YHWH did something not in line with Pharaoh's will... :think:

A simple illustration:
Pharaoh’s heart was like a lump of clay. God’s power and glory shined down on Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s heart will either melt (repent) of become hard (unrepentant). God knew Pharaoh’s character and what would happen if He showed His power and glory.

Being able to predict some people's behavior if you prove them wrong is not that difficult to do.

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Zakath, you are not correctly recalling the Biblical story, but you may be correctly recalling what some Calvinist teachers taught you.

... :doh:... here we go again...

Example 1:
"...And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go..." Exodus 4:21

In Example 1, the construction is YHWH promises to do something to a person that will cause the person to act a certain way. One logical way to read this is that YHWH is contravening the free will of Pharaoh by hardening Pharaoh's heart.

Example 2:
"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." Exodus 7:3-4

In Example 2, YHWH again states that he will act to prevent Pharaoh from listening to Moses. He also states his reasons for doing this - so that he can "lay his hand on Egypt", i.e. punish Egypt. Here, YHWH effectively sets up Pharaoh and punishes all of Egypt when Pharaoh does exactly what YHWH wants him to do.

Example 3:
"And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go." Exodus 8:32
In Exodus 8, Pharaoh hardens his own heart. The language is clearly different from that of YHWH's threat and promise in the preceeding texts.

Example 4:
"And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. " Exodus 9:12
In Example 4, YHWH again gets credit for Pharaoh's condition.

Example 5:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD." Exodus 10:1-2

In Example 5, YHWH expands his intervention to the servants of Pharaoh as well as the monarch himself. All for the stated purpose of visiting further punishments upon Egypt.

Example 6:
"Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you. Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only...But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. " Exodus 10:16-17 and 20

In Example 6, Pharaoh repents of his sin and asks Moses to intervene for him before YHWH. Moses, being a good prophet, does so and YHWH removes the latest curse from Egypt. YHWH immediately turns around and harden's Pharaoh's heart again!

Example 7:
"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go." Exodus 10:27

In Example 7, Pharaoh is again victimized by the deity who hardens his heart.

The story goes on, but even you should be able to see the pattern from seven examples. ;)


Saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart is no different than saying that God made Pharaoh mad. People often get mad when they are shown definitively to be wrong (surely you can relate), but it's not that those who proved them wrong forced them to become bitte, angry, or spiteful.Frankly I find such an interpretation of the plainly written text incredibly naive, Tubo. The idea that, Ramses, a monarch of the Egyptian empire and one of the greatest generals of his day would bring his people to destitution, famine, and pestilence because he got irritated shows a unrealistic view of human thinking. One does not rise to such power and military ability without being able to control one's temper.


It's not like God sprinkled magical hardening dust on Pharaoh's heart. Why would God command Pharaoh (through Moses) to let His people go, and then force Pharaoh to disobey? :hammer:
The text answers that question plainly on two different occasions...

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." Exodus 7:3-4

"I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD." Exodus 10:1-2




"

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 10:04 AM
A simple illustration:
Pharaoh’s heart was like a lump of clay. God’s power and glory shined down on Pharaoh’s heart. Pharaoh’s heart will either melt (repent) of become hard (unrepentant). God knew Pharaoh’s character and what would happen if He showed His power and glory.

Being able to predict some people's behavior if you prove them wrong is not that difficult to do.See if my reply to Turbo's question helps clarify my thinking for you.

On Fire
March 25th, 2005, 10:11 AM
If Easter says anything to us today, it says this: You can put truth in a grave, but it won't stay there. You can nail it to a cross, wrap it in winding sheets and shut it up in a tomb, but it will rise! -Clarence W. Hall

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 10:13 AM
If Easter says anything to us today...Remember, that's "if"...

For some of us, Easter is merely another Sunday.

But for some folks like you, it has particular meaning. Enjoy your holy day. :thumb:

Gerald
March 25th, 2005, 10:17 AM
If Easter says anything to us today, it says this: You can put truth in a grave, but it won't stay there. You can nail it to a cross, wrap it in winding sheets and shut it up in a tomb, but it will rise! -Clarence W. HallA pity that comment is not germain to the discussion here.

Perhaps you should've posted it in the ECT forum.

Granite
March 25th, 2005, 10:25 AM
Just another Sunday...

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 10:27 AM
... which I plan to spend most of priming and painting inside the new wing on Castle Zakath... :D

On Fire
March 25th, 2005, 10:36 AM
A pity that comment is not germain to the discussion here.

It's a reminder of what some people have walked away from.

Granite
March 25th, 2005, 10:39 AM
Personally I'm better for it. In every way.

I cannot think of a single thing I honestly miss about the church. Not the rituals, the liturgy, the mystery, not the doctrine. About the only thing I do miss, from time to time, is the fellowship and camaraderie. But that's a pretty lousy reason to stay in a church.

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 10:45 AM
Personally I'm better for it. In every way.

I cannot think of a single thing I honestly miss about the church.Agreed.


Not the rituals, the liturgy, the mystery,...
I can always join the Masons or the Moose Lodge...


... not the doctrine.
If I want to debate doctrine, there's always one of those fundy online theology boards. ;)


About the only thing I do miss, from time to time, is the fellowship and camaraderie. But that's a pretty lousy reason to stay in a church.
I honestly found more camaraderie at local social organizations than in churches I attended.

On Fire
March 25th, 2005, 11:14 AM
Who's surprised? Anyone? Anyone?

Granite
March 25th, 2005, 11:19 AM
Not asking anybody to be surprised. But it's an honest appraisal of my situation and Zakath's.

I got beyond the Feel Guilty on Sunday For Not Going to Church phase a while ago.

On Fire
March 25th, 2005, 11:22 AM
You mean you USED to feel guilty for not going to church? Man, you DO have issues.

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 11:25 AM
You mean you USED to feel guilty for not going to church? Man, you DO have issues.
I never did... I did have to get used to having extra time, but never had any guilt about not attending religious services.

On Fire
March 25th, 2005, 11:37 AM
Was someone talking to the SOC?

Zakath
March 25th, 2005, 11:57 AM
Was someone talking to the SOC?
It's a Web forum. Everybody's talking to everyone else... ;)

Granite
March 25th, 2005, 12:15 PM
You mean you USED to feel guilty for not going to church? Man, you DO have issues.

Not "guilt" so much as it was something to get used to.

"Oh, man. It's nine o'clock. NINE O'CLOCK!?!? Sunday school starts in half an hour! Kick into high gear ASAP!"

Then came the realization: oh, yeah. I can sleep in and STAY in, if I'm so inclined.

Sweet.

Lighthouse
March 27th, 2005, 09:25 PM
I haven't been to church in months, and I don't feel guilty. I didn't even go today.

Lucky
March 27th, 2005, 11:52 PM
I agree with those that say that one cannot loose one's own salvation through sin. I don't believe we were saved on the basis of our lack of sin, so it makes little sense that we could loose our salvation by sinning.

What then, is the response to the idea that people can walk away? I'm speaking of someone who aftr accepting Jesus, decides he'd rather not spend all of eternity with God. Can someone walk away from their own salvation?
My response, borrowing Sozo's eloquent way of putting it...

No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own. The life that they have is the life of God, and Jesus said that those who have the life will NEVER perish. If they perished through an act or will of their own then Jesus would be wrong, and He is not.

Lighthouse
March 28th, 2005, 12:05 AM
Jesus ain't a liar. That's for sure.

Sold Out
March 28th, 2005, 08:08 AM
Jesus ain't a liar. That's for sure.

Yep...eternal security is a WONDERFUL FEELING!!!

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Nothing like a last minute sinner's prayer to absolve a lifetime.

Gerald
March 28th, 2005, 10:47 AM
Nothing like a last minute sinner's prayer to absolve a lifetime.That's part of the attraction, I s'pose...

Sozo
March 28th, 2005, 11:02 AM
Nothing like a last minute sinner's prayer to absolve a lifetime.

Only someone who thinks that is what it means to be saved by grace through faith, would have your perspective. Simply quoting a prayer, does not save you. Going to church or walking forward at a Billy Graham crusade does not save you.

Granite
March 28th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Only someone who thinks that is what it means to be saved by grace through faith, would have your perspective. Simply quoting a prayer, does not save you. Going to church or walking forward at a Billy Graham crusade does not save you.

So NEVER praying a "sinner's prayer" is going to save you? Not once? No exceptions? No deathbed confessions or last-minute cries of repentance?

Sozo
March 28th, 2005, 06:24 PM
So NEVER praying a "sinner's prayer" is going to save you? Not once? No exceptions? No deathbed confessions or last-minute cries of repentance?

Re-read what I said.

I did not say that prayer is not involved. There is more.

Ninjashadow
March 28th, 2005, 06:26 PM
Only someone who thinks that is what it means to be saved by grace through faith, would have your perspective. Simply quoting a prayer, does not save you. Going to church or walking forward at a Billy Graham crusade does not save you.

I agree with you. I think that it's what's in a person's heart that matters. A death bed repentance only "works" if the person truly means it. Just saying it doesn't mean much.

Sozo
March 28th, 2005, 07:31 PM
I agree with you. I think that it's what's in a person's heart that matters. A death bed repentance only "works" if the person truly means it. Just saying it doesn't mean much.

Exactly!

It is absolute surrender. An irreversible commitment, similar to suicide. You are so convinced that God is your only hope that you are willing to sacrifice all that you are for all that He is; Giving up all that you know and understand, for that which you cannot see or comprehend. It is the death of self at that very moment, and the impartation of new life.

Mr. 5020
March 28th, 2005, 07:36 PM
Romans 12:1-2, NKJV

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Lighthouse
March 28th, 2005, 11:59 PM
5020-
What exactly are you saying? I know what that verse says to me, but what is your purpose for presenting it in this thread?

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 09:50 AM
Re-read what I said.

I did not say that prayer is not involved. There is more.

I understand but you didn't answer my question.

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 10:25 AM
I understand but you didn't answer my question.

I did answer your question. There is no such thing as a definitive "sinner's prayer", a "deathbed confession", or a "last-minute cry of repentance" apart from what I defined as saving faith.

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 11:58 AM
I did answer your question. There is no such thing as a definitive "sinner's prayer", a "deathbed confession", or a "last-minute cry of repentance" apart what I defined as saving faith.

Are you saying that a sinner's prayer or deathbed confession isn't effectual (never works), or are you saying something else?

I'll simplify:

Is a deathbed confession/sinner's prayer at the last minute worthless?

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 12:15 PM
Are you saying that a sinner's prayer or deathbed confession isn't effectual (never works), or are you saying something else?

I'll simplify:

Is a deathbed confession/sinner's prayer at the last minute worthless?

I'm not sure, what it is you are having a problem understanding by my responses to your questions.

I have given you an exhaustive answer on what it means to have saving faith. Apart from what I have expressed concerning our response to God's grace, there are no other options. Saving faith may be a part of someone's prayer or "confession", but they can never be less than what I described.

Granite
March 29th, 2005, 12:18 PM
Okay, I think that answers my question.

Gerald
March 29th, 2005, 12:20 PM
I agree with you. I think that it's what's in a person's heart that matters. A death bed repentance only "works" if the person truly means it. Just saying it doesn't mean much.Unfortunately, there is no way to tell if a person "truly means it".

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 12:23 PM
Unfortunately, there is no way to tell if a person "truly means it".Particularly when they expire soon after uttering the prayer... :dead:

Lucky
March 29th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Unfortunately, there is no way to tell if a person "truly means it".
I didn't realize you cared that much if someone was saved or not.

Sold Out
March 29th, 2005, 02:05 PM
Zakath - I shouldn't, but I like your little quote (referring to God works in mysterious ways)...that is too funny!!

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 02:15 PM
Zakath - I shouldn't, but I like your little quote (referring to God works in mysterious ways)...that is too funny!!Glad you enjoyed it. :)

Ninjashadow
March 29th, 2005, 08:42 PM
Unfortunately, there is no way to tell if a person "truly means it".

Not for you an me, but God knows and he's the only one who matters in the situation.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 08:54 PM
Not for you an me, but God knows and he's the only one who matters in the situation.
But since he's not talking to anyone about it, (unless you're like Benny Hinn or Oral Roberts) the world and the Church are SOL when it comes to telling whether you've got the real McCoy or a fake.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 08:55 PM
...unless you're like Benny Hinn...:chuckle:

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 08:58 PM
But since he's not talking to anyone about it, (unless you're like Benny Hinn or Oral Roberts) the world and the Church are SOL when it comes to telling whether you've got the real McCoy or a fake.


When did the following happen to you?

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:00 PM
When did the following happen to you?

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"
How would we know that is happening? It's not bearing witness to us.

:confused:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:01 PM
When did the following happen to you?

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"Perhaps I should have added "Sozo" to the list with Hinn and Roberts...

Has your god been talking to you lately again about who is and who isn't "saved", Sozo?

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 09:05 PM
How would we know that is happening? It's not bearing witness to us.

:confused:Why would you say that?

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:06 PM
Why would you say that?Which part?

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 09:09 PM
Perhaps I should have added "Sozo" to the list with Hinn and Roberts...

Has your god been talking to you lately again about who is and who isn't "saved", Sozo?I knew you would ignore the question, and respond with an ignorant comment completely unrelated.

I can easily judge what someone claims about God and the message concerning Christ.

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 09:11 PM
Which part?If you don't want to answer the question, then butt out.

Mr. 5020
March 29th, 2005, 09:12 PM
If you don't want to answer the question, then butt out.What the heck are you talking about? I asked a question to you out of curiosity. You responded with a question that was too vague for me to answer correctly, and I'm the one who has trouble answering questions?

Ninjashadow
March 29th, 2005, 09:15 PM
But since he's not talking to anyone about it, (unless you're like Benny Hinn or Oral Roberts) the world and the Church are SOL when it comes to telling whether you've got the real McCoy or a fake.

I don't think it's the church's place to say who's going and who's not without a doubt. Only God can truly know someone's heart. Like it says in the bible, "Many will come to me and I will say I never knew you."

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:17 PM
I knew you would ignore the question, I considered the source and decided not to waste my time. You have repeatedly, and emphatically, stated that you do not believe I was ever a Christian. As such your question is meaningless.


and respond with an ignorant comment completely unrelated.I could make a similar comment about your initial quesiton. My comment was germaine to my original point.


I can easily judge what someone claims about God and the message concerning Christ.Yup. That's why I added you to the list along with Hinn and Roberts... I've heard them claim the same thing.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:19 PM
I don't think it's the church's place to say who's going and who's not without a doubt. Yet a number of roles in the Church need to be filled only by believers. If there is no reliable way to tell who the believers actually are, then how is the Church to fill those roles effectively?


Only God can truly know someone's heart. Like it says in the bible, "Many will come to me and I will say I never knew you."Unless they're like Sozo. Read his post prior to this one...

Ninjashadow
March 29th, 2005, 09:25 PM
What I'm getting at, Zakath (and I appreciate your intelligent approach) is that it's the heart that matters. If someone doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior, then they really don't have a chance to get into heaven, that's why the church roles are filled with believers.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:28 PM
What I'm getting at, Zakath (and I appreciate your intelligent approach) is that it's the heart that matters.If the Christian doctrine were verifiably true, I'd agree with you.


If someone doesn't accept Jesus as their Savior, then they really don't have a chance to get into heaven, that's why the church roles are filled with believers.What is your belief about those who do not accept through no fault of their own? Infant children? Mentally infirm adults?

Ninjashadow
March 29th, 2005, 09:32 PM
If the Christian doctrine were verifiably true, I'd agree with you.

I tend to think that God gives us enough to be able to take it on faith.


What is your belief about those who do not accept through no fault of their own? Infant children? Mentally infirm adults?

I think God is just and fair and would realize they those people weren't capable of understanding.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 09:33 PM
I tend to think that God gives us enough to be able to take it on faith. Perhaps, for at least some of you...


I think God is just and fair and would realize they those people weren't capable of understanding.Thank you for clarifying.

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 10:12 PM
I considered the source and decided not to waste my time. Nice try, Zakass, but the FACT is YOU cannot answer that question, because it proves you to be a liar.

You are not only a phony at TOL, your entire existence is a sham.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:22 PM
:yawn:
What is that buzzing sound?

Oh, Sozo must be trying to communicate again. :chuckle:

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:24 PM
Nice try, Zakass, but the FACT is YOU cannot answer that question,No I chose not to answer your question because you aren't worth my time.

As a matter of fact, Fellowship Week might be a great time for you to join Dimshack on my Ignore List...

:geek:

Ciao, baby!

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 10:26 PM
:yawn:
What is that buzzing sound?

Oh, Sozo must be trying to communicate again. :chuckle:


You can attempt to cover up my questions all you want with your spamming and evasions, but the fact remains... YOU are incapable of defending your position against the most simple question.

YOU are a liar, and a fraud! Everyone, but your kissing butt buddies knows it.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:29 PM
Buzz away, So-slow.

Since you're on Ignore, I can't read any of your vitriolic comments.

Enjoy stewing in your own bile. :thumb:

Sozo
March 29th, 2005, 10:33 PM
No I chose not to answer your question because you aren't worth my time.

As a matter of fact, Fellowship Week might be a great time for you to join Dimshack on my Ignore List...

:geek:

Ciao, baby!


Hopefully, someone else will quote this post to show you what an incredible baby YOU are. :baby:

What is so pathetic, about you Zakass, is that I have not only proved you as never being a Christian, but I have completely discredited you as a phony in the position that you now claim.

You entire life is a worthless existence.

Zakath
March 29th, 2005, 10:37 PM
:yawn:

Lighthouse
March 30th, 2005, 04:23 AM
Ignore me all you want, but I will not go away.:D

SOTK
March 30th, 2005, 05:14 AM
No, they cannot. It is a 100% absolute impossibilty for anyone to undue what God has done. Free will is not all inclusive, and those who are in Christ have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, and they are not their own. The life that they have is the life of God, and Jesus said that those who have the life will NEVER perish. If they perished through an act or will of their own then Jesus would be wrong, and He is not.

:thumb:

I agree with this, but couldn't God choose to send them to Hell at the end of the World if these type of people continue to deny Him?

Lighthouse
March 30th, 2005, 05:22 AM
If anyone denies Christ, they were never in Christ. Bottom line. End of story. No ifs ands, or buts about it.

SOTK
March 30th, 2005, 05:23 AM
Lighthouse, check out my post in your Pencils and Erasers thread.

Lighthouse
March 30th, 2005, 05:50 AM
I'm on my way there.:thumb:

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 07:01 AM
:thumb:

I agree with this, but couldn't God choose to send them to Hell at the end of the World if these type of people continue to deny Him?

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

"Paul, a bond-servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior"

If God chose to send them to hell, after they had received eternal life, then God would be a liar.

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 08:14 AM
What the heck are you talking about? I asked a question to you out of curiosity. You responded with a question that was too vague for me to answer correctly, and I'm the one who has trouble answering questions?


Didn't mean to jump on your case, but you appeared to be attempting to side with the clown's evasions.

How would you define "us"?

Mr. 5020
March 30th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Didn't mean to jump on your case, but you appeared to be attempting to side with the clown's evasions.

How would you define "us"?From just reading the verse (not studying it too deeply), it seems like our spirit and the Holy Spirit are bearing witness to someone else that we are children of God. Am I totally off base here, and why?

Gerald
March 30th, 2005, 09:33 AM
When did the following happen to you?

"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"When did that happen to you? Give date, time and circumstances.

Such an experience can't be that personal and private.

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 11:08 AM
When did that happen to you? Give date, time and circumstances.

Such an experience can't be that personal and private.Ahh, so So-slow refuses to answer, eh?

Why is he avoiding the question?

Perhaps we should start a thread "So-slow is a fraud". :chuckle:

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Ahh, so So-slow refuses to answer, eh?

Why is he avoiding the question?

Perhaps we should start a thread "So-slow is a fraud". :chuckle:

Was that question from Gerald directed at me? He has been on my ignore list for some time.

What is it related to?

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 01:05 PM
He was asking about the Spirit bearing witness:

When did that happen to you? Give date, time and circumstances.

Such an experience can't be that personal and private.

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 01:16 PM
He was asking about the Spirit bearing witness:

When did that happen to you? Give date, time and circumstances.

Such an experience can't be that personal and private.

It has been on going since the time that I placed faith in Him. There has not been a single moment of doubt or sense that He is not there.

As far as a date and time, why does he care?

On Fire
March 30th, 2005, 01:19 PM
It's an on-going experience for me, too.

Sold Out
March 30th, 2005, 02:17 PM
It has been on going since the time that I placed faith in Him. There has not been a single moment of doubt or sense that He is not there.

As far as a date and time, why does he care?

What is Granite1010 asking you? I was reading the thread and can't figure it out.

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 02:20 PM
What is Granite1010 asking you? I was reading the thread and can't figure it out.
So-slow asked various former Christians the following:

When did the following happen to you? "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God"

Granite was merely asking him to answer his own question... that doesn't sound unreasonable, does it?

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 03:42 PM
Granite was merely asking him to answer his own question... that doesn't sound unreasonable, does it?


I do not claim to be a former "christian", as you do, Zakass.

You are the one who refuses to answer the question because it exposes you to be a fraud.

The verse provides evidence that those who are believers have a witness from the Spirit that they are children of God. You refuse to agree that you had this witness.

The bible also makes it clear that those who believe can know that they have eternal life...

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for the witness of God is this, that He has borne witness concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. "

You have been exposed as a fraud and a liar, Zakass, and so has your butt-kissing groupie... granite.

Zakath
March 30th, 2005, 03:45 PM
There's that buzzing sound again... yep, So-slow's back online...

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 03:51 PM
I do not claim to be a former "christian", as you do, Zakass.

You are the one who refuses to answer the question because it exposes you to be a fraud.

The verse provides evidence that those who are believers have a witness from the Spirit that they are children of God. You refuse to agree that you had this witness.

The bible also makes it clear that those who believe can know that they have eternal life...

"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for the witness of God is this, that He has borne witness concerning His Son. The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the witness that God has borne concerning His Son. And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. "

You have been exposed as a fraud and a liar, Zakass, and so has your butt-kissing groupie... granite.

Sozo, how exactly would you define/explain/describe this "experience"? Does it make you feel warm and fuzzy? Toes tingle? Hair smoke? How or what happens here, exactly? And does anyone else here at TOL know what you're smoking?

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Sozo, how exactly would you define/explain/describe this "experience"? Does it make you feel warm and fuzzy? Toes tingle? Hair smoke? How or what happens here, exactly? And does anyone else here at TOL know what you're smoking?


Those verses speak for themselves, and the fact that you mock what God says about the witness of His Son, and the eternal life that is known to those who are His, proves that you, granite, NEVER came close to being a christian, and YOU are as much of a fraud and a liar as you mentor, Zakass.

Gerald
March 30th, 2005, 04:10 PM
Those verses speak for themselves, and the fact that you mock what God says about the witness of His Son, and the eternal life that is known to those who are His, proves that you, granite, NEVER came close to being a christian, and YOU are as much of a fraud and a liar as you mentor, Zakass.Sozo, drop dead. The world will be a better place without you.

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 04:13 PM
Those verses speak for themselves, and the fact that you mock what God says about the witness of His Son, and the eternal life that is known to those who are His, proves that you, granite, NEVER came close to being a christian, and YOU are as much of a fraud and a liar as you mentor, Zakass.

If anything John is not known for a verse "speaking for itself," as his work (whoever wrote it) is known to be--dare I say it--downright gnostic at times.

I'm forthright, happy, and know where I stand. And you're frustrated, more than likely strapped for cash, angry, and twisted. If turning into an Internet-bound bucket of bile like you is what Christianity held for me as time went on, I'm glad I got out when I did.

Sozo
March 30th, 2005, 04:16 PM
I'm forthright, happy, and know where I stand. Yep... a heartbeat from eternal damnation.
I'm glad I got out when I did You were NEVER in, and I just proved it.

Granite
March 30th, 2005, 04:18 PM
Yep... a heartbeat from eternal damnation. You were NEVER in, and I just proved it.

"Proved" what, Mr. Mouse? That I left the monkey house? Sure did. Unfortunately you're not a mind reader and no one knows what's in the hearts of men--certainly not you or me.

Gerald
March 30th, 2005, 04:27 PM
Unfortunately you're not a mind reader and no one knows what's in the hearts of men--certainly not you or me.Well, the Shadow knows, but that's another story...;)

Gerald
March 30th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Yep... a heartbeat from eternal damnation.And you're a heartbeat from eternal life, is that it?

I'd be interested to see you'd react if you were, say, looking down the barrel of a gun. You'd be praying like crazy for God to pull your chestnuts out of the fire, and you're a liar if you say otherwise.

Lighthouse
March 30th, 2005, 08:10 PM
The Spirit has born witness with my spirit that I am a child of God. And I know for certain that this never happened with :zakath: or rocky.

Zakath
March 31st, 2005, 06:40 AM
More buzzing... ahh it's dimshack posting again... :D

On Fire
March 31st, 2005, 06:45 AM
"Proved" what, Mr. Mouse? That I left the monkey house? Sure did. Unfortunately you're not a mind reader and no one knows what's in the hearts of men--certainly not you or me.
I have some idea based on what you've shared. It's funny the things people will bring into the balance when their relationship with God is on the line. Unfortunate.

Granite
March 31st, 2005, 07:09 AM
I have some idea based on what you've shared. It's funny the things people will bring into the balance when their relationship with God is on the line. Unfortunate.

Funny peculiar, perhaps, not funny ha-ha. My relationship with God wasn't on the line; I'd say my relationship with Christianity was. Unfortunately Christians are unable to see the distinction or, at the very least, respect it.

42ndgen
March 31st, 2005, 08:36 AM
To the Person that has not come to the place of full persuasion in their life yet it can appear to them that they are able to walk away. But the person that comes to the place of fully being persuaded He knows that nothing can seperate them from God and His purpose in their life. That person who is fully persuaded is also persuaded in this area also that nothing can trully seperate the person who in not fully persuaded from doing just what the Lord wants.

Rom 8:28-39 KJVA And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? (32) He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? (33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. (34) Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. (35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. (38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Grace and Peace Patrick