toldailytopic: Pedophile priests. Why does the the Catholic Church have such a wide-s

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Nathon Detroit

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The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 14th, 2010 11:11 AM


toldailytopic: Pedophile priests. Why does the the Catholic Church have such a wide-scale problem with them?






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chrysostom

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
it doesn't

the incidence of pedophilia is the same or less than any other institution that deals with children

so you misstated the question

what you may be referring to is the problem the Church has had with homosexual priests
and
the Church no longer knowingly ordains homosexuals

85% of all the cases reported are male
and
not children

the problem has been addressed
but
we will continue to hear about it
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Clearly this is a result from the Churches unbiblical stance that forces Priests to be celibate.

When you make a demand such as that... your reap the horrifying consequences.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
The Catholic Church has an especially sick, twisted, unhealthy view of sexuality.

Its bureaucracy and policy of celibacy encourages, aids, and abets predators of children.

Its conviction in its infallibility leads to a culture of suppression, and contempt for the secular rule of law.

When you mix historic contempt of sexuality and the veneration of an unattainable virgin with a male-dominated culture that exposes children to a system of perverts who know they're above the law...the very worst will happen.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Catholic sex abuse cases

In a statement read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated "We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases", adding that this figure was comparable with that of other groups and denominations.[10] Additionally, according to Newsweek magazine, the figure in the Catholic Church is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[11]​

Since other non-celebate clergy are also involved in the sexual abuse of children, and pedophiles appear to work their way into jobs where they can have access to children, I don't think the problem is a celebacy doctrine, especially since those who sexually abuse children are breaking the vow and could have done so with a woman (as some do).
 

zippy2006

New member
Catholic sex abuse cases

In a statement read out by Archbishop Silvano Maria Tomasi in September 2009, the Holy See stated "We know now that in the last 50 years somewhere between 1.5% and 5% of the Catholic clergy has been involved in sexual abuse cases", adding that this figure was comparable with that of other groups and denominations.[10] Additionally, according to Newsweek magazine, the figure in the Catholic Church is similar to that in the rest of the adult population.[11]​

Since other non-celebate clergy also are involved in the sexual abuse of children, and pedophiles appear to work their way into jobs where they can have access to children, I don't think the problem is a celebacy doctrine, especially since those who sexually abuse children are breaking the vow and could have done so with a woman (as some do).

Indeed, I've never seen numbers that say otherwise.
 

MaryContrary

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Hall of Fame
From what I gather, they don't. At least not compared to any other similar group. The reason it seems so is that the Catholic church is an institution. Institutions can and are judged as a whole, rather than a group of individuals.

Depending on what numbers you look at, you could argue it's a bigger problem among Protestant churches. But since, for this example, Protestant denominations simply aren't as institutionalized as the Catholic church, it's not nearly as easy to perceive "the Protestant church" in regards to any charge in particular. As the Catholic church dominates as a Christian institution, they're judged more stringently as an institution.

Additionally, being institutionalized, organized and structured as it is works against any priest being brought to task by members of that church. It's easier to bring a report against the local pastor who doesn't have the tangible connection to some world-wide organization and who can be easily replaced. The local pastor, whatever their connections, will generally be viewed as simply that...the local pastor. Just some guy. A Catholic priest is intricately connected to and draws real authority from a very large and, in such a case, intimidating base.

Transferring priests elsewhere when such incidents do come to light, whatever the rationale behind it, is perceived as contrary to one's duty to uphold the law. Something most people consider a moral obligation. All the more so when an institution of any note is involved. And all the more still when that institution otherwise presents itself as a moral institution.

All said I think the Catholic church should display a greater awareness of the pitfalls associated with being the sort of institution they are. As well as the higher moral standard they will inevitably be held to. I haven't seen much of that in regards to these incidents so far.

If the Catholic church truly regards itself as the moral institution they claim to, then they should actively work to be less insulated from their moral responsibilities, rather than allowing the inherent insularity from moral responsibility afforded by their status to stand. In this instance, reacting more aggressively and intolerantly to pedophilia and all other sexual deviancy in their ranks than would be expected of any individual or much smaller organization.

This should have been an opportunity for Christians the world over to praise them for their reaction to having these things brought to light. And for unbelievers to revile them for their reaction. Rather, we see the opposite. Unbelievers revile them as a sexually deviant institution and Christians lament their weak response.

Institutions make of whole groups an individual. How should a Christian respond if they were guilty of pedophilia and that was brought to light? That is how the Catholic church should have responded. You don't cover it up or point to how someone else did the same thing a few weeks ago in another state. You publicly repent, make amends as you can and suffer all the consequences. You plead guilty at your own trial and ask for the stiffest sentence possible if the death penalty is off the table.

What part of that has the Catholic church failed to do? The sentencing. All the priests guilty of such should have been turned over to authorities. And the church should have demanded the stiffest possible sentence for all of them. And taken steps to aggressively root out any hint of such in the church that hadn't been brought to light. Their response overall should have been shocking to every non-Christian out there.

*****

Regarding the argument for celibacy in the priesthood by 1 Corinthians 7:8-9...that's all well and good. If it applies. And since we have no test to determine whether it applies or not, you will have priests attempting to strive for a standard that's unreachable to them. It was clearly never intended as a standard to strive for but as a qualification that either exists or does not. Until you determine how to test for that qualification, you can't hold others to it without insuring a large portion of them will fail. Which, ironically, is the very fact the verse is founded upon.
 

HisServant

New member
From what I gather, they don't. At least not compared to any other similar group. The reason it seems so is that the Catholic church is an institution. Institutions can and are judged as a whole, rather than a group of individuals.

Depending on what numbers you look at, you could argue it's a bigger problem among Protestant churches. But since, for this example, Protestant denominations simply aren't as institutionalized as the Catholic church, it's not nearly as easy to perceive "the Protestant church" in regards to any charge in particular. As the Catholic church dominates as a Christian institution, they're judged more stringently as an institution.

Additionally, being institutionalized, organized and structured as it is works against any priest being brought to task by members of that church. It's easier to bring a report against the local pastor who doesn't have the tangible connection to some world-wide organization and who can be easily replaced. The local pastor, whatever their connections, will generally be viewed as simply that...the local pastor. Just some guy. A Catholic priest is intricately connected to and draws real authority from a very large and, in such a case, intimidating base.

Transferring priests elsewhere when such incidents do come to light, whatever the rationale behind it, is perceived as contrary to one's duty to uphold the law. Something most people consider a moral obligation. All the more so when an institution of any note is involved. And all the more still when that institution otherwise presents itself as a moral institution.

All said I think the Catholic church should display a greater awareness of the pitfalls associated with being the sort of institution they are. As well as the higher moral standard they will inevitably be held to. I haven't seen much of that in regards to these incidents so far.

If the Catholic church truly regards itself as the moral institution they claim to, then they should actively work to be less insulated from their moral responsibilities, rather than allowing the inherent insularity from moral responsibility afforded by their status to stand. In this instance, reacting more aggressively and intolerantly to pedophilia and all other sexual deviancy in their ranks than would be expected of any individual or much smaller organization.

This should have been an opportunity for Christians the world over to praise them for their reaction to having these things brought to light. And for unbelievers to revile them for their reaction. Rather, we see the opposite. Unbelievers revile them as a sexually deviant institution and Christians lament their weak response.

Institutions make of whole groups an individual. How should a Christian respond if they were guilty of pedophilia and that was brought to light? That is how the Catholic church should have responded. You don't cover it up or point to how someone else did the same thing a few weeks ago in another state. You publicly repent, make amends as you can and suffer all the consequences. You plead guilty at your own trial and ask for the stiffest sentence possible if the death penalty is off the table.

What part of that has the Catholic church failed to do? The sentencing. All the priests guilty of such should have been turned over to authorities. And the church should have demanded the stiffest possible sentence for all of them. And taken steps to aggressively root out any hint of such in the church that hadn't been brought to light. Their response overall should have been shocking to every non-Christian out there.

*****

Regarding the argument for celibacy in the priesthood by 1 Corinthians 7:8-9...that's all well and good. If it applies. And since we have no test to determine whether it applies or not, you will have priests attempting to strive for a standard that's unreachable to them. It was clearly never intended as a standard to strive for but as a qualification that either exists or does not. Until you determine how to test for that qualification, you can't hold others to it without insuring a large portion of them will fail. Which, ironically, is the very fact the verse is founded upon.

Very well put.

The continued resistance of the RCC to turn over documentation to authorities is a red flag for me. There was a report release about the abuse problems in the Netherlands just last week about how the church is refusing to help the authorities.

Then there is the fact that the Pope is claiming diplomatic immunity to avoid testifying in various cases.. yet when he was a cardinal, abuse cases we under his authority..

Aren't christians to strive to be above reproach.. and when they do injure someone, come forth quickly to pay double what is owed?
 

some other dude

New member
Clearly this is a result from the Churches unbiblical stance that forces Priests to be celibate.

When you make a demand such as that... your reap the horrifying consequences.

Are other groups of people who have not taken vows of celibacy immune to the problem?


And as far as it being unbiblical, I believe Paul had a thing or two to say about the subject.
 

Evoken

New member
To me the main problem with this, is not so much the fact that it has happened, it is indeed a grevieous and horrible offense which while no more widespread in The Church than in other Christian groups, it is to be deplored that it occurs at all. Rather, the main problem, as far as The Church is concerned, is the response that has been given to it and how the whole matter had been handled by the bishops and even the Pope.

Some bishops have in the past simply moved the child abusing priests from one diocese to another, thinking that excluding an abusing priest from contact with what would be his victims would somehow solve the problem. Even the current Pope himself, when he was a cardinal, is said to have had something to do with "covering up" abuses. Pope John Paul II didn't do much better on this matter either.

Instead of actually hammering down, excommunicating and turning men guilty of this to the authorities so that they receive their proper sentence(which in my opinion should be the most severe, namely, the death sentence); these churchmen handled the whole thing with soft gloves. Blinded perhaps by a misplaced love and compassion or just downright cowardice, they tried to hide the dirt under the carpet and as a result got themselves and the whole Church with them into a mess; doing along the way untold harm to the image and voice of The Church.

That, to me, is the essence of the problem.

A priest engaging in child abuse or even homosexual acts is not something new; men have been prone to such sins from the beginning. What matters here is how the issue is handled, which is what in turn has the potential to suppress future offenses of this kind. Back in the 16th century, during the pontificate of Pope St. Pius V, there were some cases of this around, and he stroke fiercely against them. After expounding on the gravity of this offense, the Pope concludes his encyclical establishing that:

Constitution Horrendum illud scelu, August 30, 1568
"So that the contagion of such a grave offense may not advance with greater audacity by taking advantage of impunity, which is the greatest incitement to sin, and so as to more severely punish the clerics who are guilty of this nefarious crime and who are not frightened by the death of their souls, we determine that they should be handed over to the severity of the secular authority, which enforces civil law.

Therefore, wishing to pursue with greater rigor than we have exerted since the beginning of our pontificate, we establish that any priest or member of the clergy, either secular or regular, who commits such an execrable crime, by force of the present law be deprived of every clerical privilege, of every post, dignity and ecclesiastical benefit, and having been degraded by an ecclesiastical judge, let him be immediately delivered to the secular authority to be put to death, as mandated by law as the fitting punishment for laymen who have sunk into this abyss."

This is the proper attitude and response to offenses of this kind. To do otherwise, to ignore or try to cover it up is giving, as it were, impunity to such acts, something which is, as the Pope says, "the greatest incitement to sin". Offenses like this are not just the sins of an individual, they make an impact on The Church herself, they are a source of much embarrassment for the whole Church and ultimately a hindrance to her mission.

In truth, it is quite a sad case, that a minority of abusing priests and an unwilliness to properly deal with them, has tainted the image of The Church and has done much to undermine her moral voice. As a consequence, the majority of churchmen, who are good and faithful, have to deal with being painted with a broad brush and seen under a negative light.

If this issue had been handled differently, if the offenders had been driven out and excluded from The Church and handed to the secular authorities for proper punishment, if an example had been made of them, whereby the spiritual excellency of The Church was exhibited, things would be much different and an unnecessary obstacle, for those seeking to embrace or remain within the true faith, would have been avoided altogether.


Evo
 

HisServant

New member
Well put... but I have to ask myself what would motivate the cardinals to move these people around instead of turn them over to the authorities.. I don't think its compassion.. I think there are many skeletons in the closets that they are afraid may come to light.
 

Granite

New member
Hall of Fame
Well put... but I have to ask myself what would motivate the cardinals to move these people around instead of turn them over to the authorities.. I don't think its compassion.. I think there are many skeletons in the closets that they are afraid may come to light.

I'd say it's indifference for the victims coupled with a sympathy (envy?) for the perpetrators. Those in authority within the church simply did not care. Maybe it was out of embarrassment, out of fear, out of a spirit of collusion with the predators...but it happened, and on a global scale. I'm skeptical of any attempt to downplay the extent of this scandal, because it does keep getting worse and we do keep hearing more and more.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
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And as far as it being unbiblical, I believe Paul had a thing or two to say about the subject.
What Paul said was specifically stated to be his thoughts and not a command from God. It was never to be made into a requirement to be in such positions in churches.
 

zippy2006

New member
Well put... but I have to ask myself what would motivate the cardinals to move these people around instead of turn them over to the authorities.. I don't think its compassion.. I think there are many skeletons in the closets that they are afraid may come to light.

I'd say it's indifference for the victims coupled with a sympathy (envy?) for the perpetrators. Those in authority within the church simply did not care. Maybe it was out of embarrassment, out of fear, out of a spirit of collusion with the predators...but it happened, and on a global scale. I'm skeptical of any attempt to downplay the extent of this scandal, because it does keep getting worse and we do keep hearing more and more.

Are you guys going to make any points or are you just going to sling emotional mud?

The only argument I can begin to perceive is that Catholic clergy are somehow different from other men (more evil). If you want to sustain that then be my guest but we have seen no evidence in support of it so far.

So far we know:

1. Terrible things have happened, both in Catholic circles and every other circle

2. People who commit these crimes should be punished and the problem should be addressed. I think we all agree that it hasn't been addressed adequately in the past decades.

Do you have anything to add that isn't gossip?
 

Traditio

BANNED
Banned
Clearly this is a result from the Churches unbiblical stance that forces Priests to be celibate.

When you make a demand such as that... your reap the horrifying consequences.

:plain:

Catholic Church: "Priests, don't have sex."

Priest has sex with a male boy.

Everyone else: "It's the Catholic Church's fault!"

Uh...? One plus one equals...chair?
 

Nydhogg

New member
Taking into consideration that it's the largest denomination in existence, and that has more priests than others, it makes sense that the catholic Church has more instances of child sexual abuse in absolute numbers.

Overall it happens at a similar rate in the different churches. While the catholic Church wasn't exactly transparent, they at least had a policy of trying to keep offending priests away from children in the future (putting them to administrative tasks), instead of just sending the pastor to a new congregation and letting it be their freaking problem, like certain Protestant denominations have been certainly known to do.
 
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