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Janus
January 12th, 2005, 05:10 PM
Ok so this is the thing. I've decided I want a religion but having been brought up outside religion I can't decide which. Each and everyone says in their own scriptures that theirs is the one to follow and offers `true enlightenment' and why this is I appreciate. So I need some help, could you put these in order for me the first being (assuming I adhere and conform completely) absolutely, definetly going to heaven. The last being, straight to hell no further questions asked. I'm assuming some religions will have an element of respect for one another. Is it true that Christianity says that only through believing in Jesus can I ascend whilst others are a little less demanding. If I carry on as I have till now, ie. no religion (hence atheist?), do I, according to Christianity, stand a better chance of entering Heaven than a Muslim, who actively renouces Jesus as the son of God.

1. Islam (sunni)
2. Islam (shi'ite)
3. Judaism
4. Christianity (Catholic)
5. Christianity (Protestant)
6. Christian (Baptist)
7. Taoist
8. Budhist
9. Seikh
10. Hindu
11. Confuscian
12. Shinto
13. Druidism
14. Atheism

Jackielabby
January 12th, 2005, 05:12 PM
Welcome, Janus, welcome soul-mate.:)

God_Is_Truth
January 12th, 2005, 05:29 PM
why do you want a religion? you should follow that which you believe to be most true.

the bible declares that you are a sinner, cut off from God and under his divine wrath. it also states that you can not reconcile yourself to God through your own works and that your punishment is eternal seperation from him in a place called hell.

there is no hope in hell and there is no joy there either. it is a place apart from God filled with utter despair and deadness.

however, the good news is that 2000 years ago God became flesh through Jesus Christ and was hung on a cross by his own people; but on the cross he took the full punishment of the wrath of God for the sins of the world. 3 days later he rose from the dead as proof that God had accepted him as a complete sacrifice for sin.

the bible declares that through faith (trust, repentence) in the work of Jesus on the cross, anyone can be reconciled to God and given eternal life in heaven.

the bible is very clear that you cannot earn your own salvation and that it is only attained through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross.

call it religion if you like, but i call it the gospel, the power of salvation to all who believe.

based on the bible, the only "religion" that will get you to heaven would be christianity (protestant and baptist on your list). but i really don't think it's important as to what "religion" one has.

if you put your trust in Christ, your faith in the finished work on the cross where he died for your sins, and believe that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

let go of trying to be "religious" or joining something for the sake of joining it. salvation is found in Christ as well as all knowledge and wisdom. true peace, joy, love and "enlightment" are only found there as well.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. apart from him, you are lost.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 05:49 PM
Thankyou God_is_truth,

"The bible has declared me a sinner" but I don't think I am, I lead a good life, I'm fairly altruistic. I'm "cut off" yet through reasoning (I'm a historian) I find it impossible to side purely with the bible when I look at the source. I don't mean to offend you I don't mean God, I mean the men that scribed it, the men that translated it. I have an elementary understanding of Latin, yet I know that the bible was originally Greek, then Latin, then English (Catholic), then protestant English, then modern English from olde English. I'm more than aware of the politicall ramifications that occured during the reformation period but it leaves me doubting what version of the bible survives! I'd rather be my own fool than someone else's slave and surely an understanding God would understand that, if not fully supporting me. I have a hard time seeing Jesus or God condemning me whilst someone that has been brought up in the religion whom has never stopped to question their actions is not. Especially if my good deeds out number theirs, and in actions if not words have lived the life that Jesus intended but just not through Jesus' name.

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Janus

If I carry on as I have till now, ie. no religion (hence atheist?), do I, according to Christianity, stand a better chance of entering Heaven than a Muslim, who actively renouces Jesus as the son of God. No.

According to Christ himself:He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

Jackielabby
January 12th, 2005, 06:12 PM
From the Quran:
The Jews, the Christians and the Pagans will burn forever in the Fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. (98.6)

A different viewpoint.

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Janus

but I don't think I am [a sinner], I lead a good life, I'm fairly altruistic.

"Fairly altruistic?" Does that make you only "fairly righteous?"

You "lead a good life?" According to what standard?

Are you saying that you have never done anything that even you would consider to be morally wrong?

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Jackielabby

From the Quran:
The Jews, the Christians and the Pagans will burn forever in the Fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. (98.6)

A different viewpoint. And a wrong viewpoint.

But regardless, the question was:
If I carry on as I have till now, ie. no religion (hence atheist?), do I, according to Christianity, stand a better chance of entering Heaven than a Muslim, who actively renouces Jesus as the son of God.

Jackielabby
January 12th, 2005, 06:19 PM
Now a muslim would say the same about your viewpoint. Who is right? I certainly don't know.

Sozo
January 12th, 2005, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Jackielabby

Who is right? I certainly don't know. That is a viewpoint that we can all agree on. YOU do not know! :thumb:

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Jackielabby

Now a muslim would say the same about your viewpoint. Who is right? I certainly don't know. Well, Jesus claimed to be God. So investigating the truth of that claim might be a good place to start.

After all, if Jesus is God then His statement is true, and Mohommed's must be false because it contradict's what God has said. Right?

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Back at you, JOHN 3:19, if we can't agree on the source nor the translation, nor the translator. How can we quote chapter and verse. John might have been misquoted. The bible could have been rewritten. The Catholic church today might be a quite embracing place but does that excuse everything from the crusades to the inquisition. To paraphrase Jesus did he not say something along the lines of let he who is without sin cast the first stone. By fairly altruistic I meant that sure I mess up from time to time but I have a conscience and always try to put things right. If I can help someone even though it might not benefit myself I'll still help them if I can. Altruism - a regard for others. More so than Pope Innocent III or Pius IX.

Jackielabby
January 12th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

That is a viewpoint that we can all agree on. YOU do not know! :thumb:
And neither do you, pal.

PureX
January 12th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Janus,

This is just my own two cents, but why not construct your own 'religion'?

No one here (or anywhere else) can prove that God exists or what is God's nature or intent. Some religions proclaim this knowledge but they have no reasonable evidence to support their claims, while other religions accept "God" openly as a mystery. In the end, the nature and existence of God is speculation for all of us.

So if you're going to choose to believe in the existence and nature of a "God", why not define that God in the way that best suits you? What would you really want God to be like? What kind of God-concept would help you to become a better person (as you would define "better")? Instead of studying other men's God-concepts, why not study your own heart and soul and create your own God-concept?

Flipper
January 12th, 2005, 06:36 PM
Turbo wrote:


Well, Jesus claimed to be God. So investigating the truth of that claim might be a good place to start.


Well hang on a minute there. Jesus is reported to have made that claim. There is a difference you know. Furthermore, only one of the gospels, John, attributes Jesus with making that direct claim. John was the last synoptic gospel written possibly 90 years after the death of Jesus, so likely well outside living memory.

Be voracious in your reading; don't let the conservative Christians railroad you, unless you want to be railroaded.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 06:42 PM
Is anybody going to put the religions in a list of prefernce?
Are the Christian's going to damn us all? Very Christian!
Stop throwing quotes at me. "Jesus claimed to be God" CLAIMED, I question the source, how do we know that some little jewish kid didn't make an ammendment when John walked out the room. How do you lead your life to something that might not be. From what I've seen here I think that through self deduction I have a greater understnading of whats good and right. The Christian element seems to be saying Jesus is about love and forgiveness and if you don't believe us we'll damn you forever to the fires of Hell burn bastards burn!

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 06:43 PM
Very Christian attitude

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Back at you, JOHN 3:18, if we can't agree on the source nor the translation, nor the translator. How can we quote chapter and verse.Whether or not you and I agree about it has no bearing on whether or not the record is accurate and the statement is true. Jesus either said that or He didn't, and the statement is either true or it isn't.

In other words: The record is either accurate or it is not and the statement is either true or it is not, regardless of what either of us think about it.

Do you agree with that?


John might have been misquoted. The bible could have been rewritten.Do you have any evidence to suggest that, or are you just speculating?


The Catholic church today might be a quite embracing place but does that excuse everything from the crusades to the inquisition. Who said it did? This has nothing to do with the topic at hand.


To paraphrase Jesus did he not say something along the lines of let he who is without sin cast the first stone.Yes, and you claim to be without sin, and that you are good. But Jesus said, "No one is good but One, that is, God."

Again, according to what standard do you "lead a good life?"


By fairly altruistic I meant that sure I mess up from time to time...And by "mess up" do mean "sin"? Do you mean that you violate your own moral code (whatever that might be)?


Altruism - a regard for others. More so than Pope Innocent III or Pius IX. So what? God doesn't grade on a curve.

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Is anybody going to put the religions in a list of prefernce?Probably not.


Are the Christian's going to damn us all?No. If you do not humble yourself before Christ, admitting that you are a sinner in need of salvation, you damn yourself.


Very Christian! Yes, it is. Read John 3:18 again if you don't think so.


Stop throwing quotes at me. "Jesus claimed to be God" CLAIMED, I question the source,Then why don't you look into it instead of making assumptions?
how do we know that some little jewish kid didn't make an ammendment when John walked out the room.Upon what evidence do you make these claims? Or is your faith blind?


How do you lead your life to something that might not be.You tell us. Sozo and I aren't the ones basing our faith on ignorant speculations.


From what I've seen here I think that through self deduction I have a greater understnading of whats good and right.How do you know your deductions are right? What if I disagree with the source. ;) What makes your deductions superior to someone elses?

Have you ever done something that through self deduction you concluded was morally wrong?



The Christian element seems to be saying Jesus is about love and forgiveness...Not if you reject him. Why should God forgive you if you won't even admit that you've done anything wrong?

Turbo
January 12th, 2005, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Very Christian attitude How would you know?

the Sibbie
January 12th, 2005, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by Flipper

Be voracious in your reading; don't let the conservative Christians railroad you, unless you want to be railroaded. And don't let the atheists fool you into thinking that truth can't be known, unless you want to be fooled.

Flipper
January 12th, 2005, 07:37 PM
And don't let the atheists fool you into thinking that truth can't be known, unless you want to be fooled.


I didn't say anything about truth or its perceived complexities. I just said `do lots of reading, then make your own mind up based on what you find most convincing.'

Why would you disagree with that?

Sozo
January 12th, 2005, 07:39 PM
I love it!

Tag Team Truthsmakin'

:turbo: :sibbie:

Zakath
January 12th, 2005, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

I would think that if some guy, in your lifetime, walked on water, fed 5000 people with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, turned water into wine, healed several people from all kinds of diseases, rose from the dead and walked through walls, that you might find it rather difficult to forget that at some point He claimed to be God. :rolleyes: Those are all things he was alleged to have done. Similar claims were made by the followers of any of the other alleged miracle workers of his day...

Not much strength in the historical validity of that position for any of the alleged miracle workers.

Jackielabby
January 12th, 2005, 07:43 PM
Alleged is the operative word. All the stories (fairy tales, perhaps?) put down 70 or so years after allegedly taking place.

Flipper
January 12th, 2005, 07:47 PM
You may be better equipped to make an informed decision and decide what truth you find to be more convincing if you are familiar with all sides of a debate.

And speaking truthfully, it neither breaks my arm or picks my pocket if you decide to become a rampant fundamentalist baptist. Why should I mind? I don't have a great commission; I'm not out to make any converts for my worldview. Somewhat more important to me is that you make an informed decision and that you know why you made it. Whether you end up a baptist or a taoist, you'll have better anchors.

So, Sozo and Sibbie, are you suggesting he doesn't investigate any of the other religions at all (or *gasp* even the arguments for doing without)? Or that he should restrict his reading on Christianity to C.S. Lewis, Lee Strobel, and the like?

Flipper
January 12th, 2005, 07:57 PM
Sozo:



I would think that if some guy, in your lifetime, walked on water, fed 5000 people with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, turned water into wine, healed several people from all kinds of diseases, rose from the dead and walked through walls, that you might find it rather difficult to forget that at some point He claimed to be God.

And yet three of the gospels neglect to mention that last point although they attribute to him the status of messenger of God. Nor do they explicitly mention the trinity. It's just the last gospel (the one written after everyone was dead) that starts making these more explicit statements.

*strokes chin*

Nothing suspicious there.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 07:59 PM
Dearest Turbo,

1. "Salvation" according to a book that may be misquoted, misrepresented and at best unreliable.

2. I won't read John 3:18 in this context, it wouldn't stand up in a court of law, the bible as a source doesn't stand up to reasonable inquisition. And where does the church stand on that? The Inquisition.

3. You ask me on what evidence do I make these claims. I didn't claim anything. I asked how do we know that it didn't happen. I'm questioning the source in a logical manner before I commit myself and it doesn't stand up. It, the bible, is disputable otherwise we wouldn't be talking. A secondary source that is not corroborated.

4. What is my faith? Where is my ignorance? Do I have faith? What are my speculations (see 3)?

5. You ask if I have ever done something through self deduction that is wrong. No I haven't. Any transgressions have come about through lack of awareness and self deduction. Act in haste, repent at leisure!

6. Why should God forgive me even if I don't repent. Because if He doesn't then I can imagine a more able God than He. Something that would forgive me no matter what. If you're God is perfect and all forgiving then he must forgive regardless.

7. How would I know what a Christian attitude is? I'm objective about it. I don't get drawn into an argument about gospel I just try and understand the message. Jesus said the second most important commandment was love thy neighbour. I'm not really feeling the love! This thread started with what religion should I opt with as a means to weigh up the characteristics of the different faiths. You've not taken the opportunity to invite me to the Christian flock. You've just condemned from afar. Ever thought about running for pope?

Is Jesus about love and forgiveness-the muslims believe so they just call him Isa instead. This thread began with my own self assessment, I recommend you take a leaf out of my book.

Zakath
January 12th, 2005, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by the Sibbie

And don't let the atheists fool you into thinking that truth can't be known, unless you want to be fooled. [looks around]

I must have missed it... did some atheist say that "truth can't be known"??? :think:

Perhaps you're confusing truth with your particular belief about absolutism... :think:

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 08:03 PM
Flipper makes a lot of sense.

Nineveh
January 12th, 2005, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Jackielabby

Alleged is the operative word. All the stories (fairy tales, perhaps?) put down 70 or so years after allegedly taking place.

I know of people who question concentration camps and the lunar landing.

the Sibbie
January 12th, 2005, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

[looks around]

I must have missed it... did some atheist say that "truth can't be known"??? :think:

Perhaps you're confusing truth with your particular belief about absolutism... :think: Ok, for clarification that post was mostly aimed at PureX.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Dear Nineveh,
Yes but I can take you to a concentration camp. I can show you people who confessed to taking part in the the Final Solution. I can even show you graves. The teflon frying pan in my kitchen is there because they invented teflon in the space race. Countless scientific discoveries have come about only because of experiments conducted in space. Give me some facts, not deductions regarding your faith. Not what you hold true personally. Facts. Stop answering questions with a question. How can you justify the source and eligibility of the bible when its origins are at best dubious.

Zakath
January 12th, 2005, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by the Sibbie

Ok, for clarification that post was mostly aimed at PureX. Thanks for the clarification.

(But I don't think PureX is an atheist.)

the Sibbie
January 12th, 2005, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

Thanks for the clarification.

(But I don't think PureX is an atheist.) Picky, picky...atheist, agnostic...potayto, potahto.

BillyBob
January 12th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Is Janus from Uranus? [Well, not yours....you know what I mean....] :beanboy:

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 08:44 PM
BillyBob,
I'm from a place called Europe. Eu-Rope. Don't expect you and you're sister/wife have ever been here. The pilgrim fathers came from here, you let a bunch religious zealots loose and what do you get? The bible belt, USA

BillyBob
January 12th, 2005, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Janus

BillyBob,
I'm from a place called Europe. Eu-Rope.

You know what they say, give a man enough Eu-ROPE......:dead:



Don't expect you and you're sister/wife have ever been here.

Naw, my Bass Boat is made for shallow water. Besides, there ain't no Bass in the Atlantic Oshen, anyhow. Plus, I don't have much use for American hating commie queers. :flamer:





The pilgrim fathers came from here, you let a bunch religious zealots loose and what do you get? The bible belt, USA

Yeah, our history books are filled with accounts of the Pilgrims Landing at Plymouth Rock, Tennessee. :dunce:

BillyBob
January 12th, 2005, 08:52 PM
If you take away the 'J' from your name, you have a nice, dark place to bury your head.

brother Willi
January 12th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Ok so this is the thing. I've decided I want a religion but having been brought up outside religion I can't decide which. Each and everyone says in their own scriptures that theirs is the one to follow and offers `true enlightenment' and why this is I appreciate. So I need some help, could you put these in order for me the first being (assuming I adhere and conform completely) absolutely, definetly going to heaven. The last being, straight to hell no further questions asked. I'm assuming some religions will have an element of respect for one another. Is it true that Christianity says that only through believing in Jesus can I ascend whilst others are a little less demanding. If I carry on as I have till now, ie. no religion (hence atheist?), do I, according to Christianity, stand a better chance of entering Heaven than a Muslim, who actively renouces Jesus as the son of God.

1. Islam (sunni)
2. Islam (shi'ite)
3. Judaism
4. Christianity (Catholic)
5. Christianity (Protestant)
6. Christian (Baptist)
7. Taoist
8. Budhist
9. Seikh
10. Hindu
11. Confuscian
12. Shinto
13. Druidism
14. Atheism

Whatever gives you the peace you need to get out of hell.

Nitpicking creates hell of its own

Not picking creates hell of its own

Confusion is its own hell

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 09:00 PM
Dear William Robert,
I'm not communist,
I don't hate Americans,
Its called migration.
And there's nothing wrong with being queer, I personally choose not to be but why so much anger? Be happpy with what you are (obviously not the incestuous hillbilly hick thing you've developed but then nobody's perfect!)

P.S.

Read a book

BillyBob
January 12th, 2005, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Dear William Robert,

Who's he? :noid:



I'm not communist,

Are you sure? :think:



I don't hate Americans,

Good for you, so what's your problem then?



Its called migration.

Don't your wings get tired?



And there's nothing wrong with being queer,

Yes there is, it's......GAY!


I personally choose not to be but why so much anger?

No anger here, I'm laughing my head off! :darwinsm:


Be happpy with what you are (obviously not the incestuous hillbilly hick thing you've developed but then nobody's perfect!)

I'm not a hillbilly hick? :shocked:



P.S.

Read a book

See a dentist. :eek:

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 09:22 PM
Billy Hick,
I'd question whether you truly understand communisim, facism or liberalism. The former soviet block spoke openly acted against homosexuality, very much in the same ilk as yourself. Read a book. My country's socialist government fifty years ago formed the national health service and all medical work in this country is free. Despite your concerns for English dentistry I have wonderful teeth, not everything you read in guns`n'ammo is true. Read a book. The left party in this country is far right of anything in your country, we have history, integrity and, whether you love him or loathe him, a prime minister that can string a sentence. How is George W.? Buy the looks of things by your presidential campaign, representative democracy is all but dead. I find it incredulous that you might be offering theological advice to somebody.
Read a book.

Granite
January 12th, 2005, 09:32 PM
Hey Janus! Welcome to TOL.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 09:40 PM
Bloody hell, a friendly voice!

BillyBob
January 12th, 2005, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Billy Hick,

yes, Anus?



I'd question whether you truly understand communisim, facism or liberalism.

Oh, I understand it very well.


The former soviet block spoke openly acted against homosexuality,

The communist Party in this country openly embraces homosexuality as a means to eradicate morality, communisms greatest enemy.


very much in the same ilk as yourself.

Oh really? Please provide me with some evidence that I have acted against homosexuality.


Read a book.

Catch a fish.


My country's socialist government fifty years ago formed the national health service and all medical work in this country is free.

Commie.


Despite your concerns for English dentistry I have wonderful teeth, not everything you read in guns`n'ammo is true.

I'm pretty sure that a round from my 2nd Ammendment protected .45 Semi Automatic Pistol would blow your jead off. It appears that 'Guns n Ammo' was right about THAT!


Read a book.

Read the US Constitution.


The left party in this country is far right of anything in your country,

I don't know if the terms in your 'Queen Ridden' are congruous to ours, but you 'subjects' are considered leftist commies in this country.


we have history,


Yeah, did you ever read the part where Americans kicked your Limey *****?


integrity

Yep, and 2 dentists!


and, whether you love him or loathe him, a prime minister that can string a sentence.

Tony Blair? He's a good ally of the US and the Iraqi people.


How is George W.?

I haven't talked to him today, he's been kinda busy.


Buy the looks of things by your presidential campaign, representative democracy is all but dead.

Ah..... so by your definition of democracy, the candidate who garnered the most votes shouldn't have won the election? That's a new one.


I find it incredulous that you might be offering theological advice to somebody.


Theological advice? Show me where I have done that.



Read a book.

Spend a 'Euro'

brother Willi
January 12th, 2005, 10:26 PM
"Now watch him Folks cause he's a fairly dangerous man!"

"You may not know it but this man is a spy.
He's a undercover agent for the FBI
And he's been sent down here to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan!"

"He's a friend of them long haired, hippy-type, pinko fags!
I betchya he's even got a commie flag
tacked up on the wall inside of his garage."

"He's a snake in the grass, I tell ya guys.
He may look dumb but that's just a disguise,
He's a mastermind in the ways of espionage"

"Would you believe this man has gone as far
As tearing Wallace stickers off the bumpers of cars.
And he voted for George McGovern for President."


God loves long haired, hippy-type, pinko fags.

God loves Commies.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 10:52 PM
billy bob,
If we're Queen ridden we cannot be communists.
Its the pound over here, not the euro.
The war of independence where you kicked our arses-where do you think you came from. What language is it you speak over there? ENGLISH. You are British stock. If not British then European.
You think Tony B is a member of a `commie pary'!!!!!
British soldiers are dying in Iraq because of American G.I. mentality towards the iraqi people. More British soldiers have died because of American friendly fire than by the insurgents. There are more insurgents because of your inability to win a hearts and minds war.This isnt a conventional war there's a difference, which they would know if they were to read books. You're officers are failing in their responsibilites because they too are poorly educated and ill informed how to deal with with this gun-ho black and white mentality that you possess. We do know how to deal with terrorists. We fought the American financed IRA for long enough.Don't get me wrong I think the American stance over iraq in general is a good one I just don't like the minority of Americans, which you represent, that effect the majority. You are offensive. This isn't communism rant, its enlightened facism. . But please, please, please, please, please READ A BOOK.

Not everyone that disagrees you is a gay communist.
Not all Muslims are bad.
Certainly not all Iraqis.
You want to shoot me with your .45 semi automatic? Go ahead and do it! There's a 50:50 chance you'd point it the wrong way round and shoot yourself in the face and remove yourself gene pool. Long live the Darwin award.

PureX
January 12th, 2005, 10:59 PM
BANG!

brother Willi
January 12th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by PureX

BANG!

:thumb:

Either end of the gun is the wrong end of the gun.

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Brother willi,
whats the alternative. If a gun wielding maniac is running down the street shooting people surely its better that he dies rather than the many. In this case what is the greater good? My point is that guns, and war, can be justified.

brother Willi
January 12th, 2005, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Brother willi,
whats the alternative. If a gun wielding maniac is running down the street shooting people surely its better that he dies rather than the many. In this case what is the greater good? My point is that guns, and war, can be justified.

Hypothetical battles are lost.

Anything can be justified.

Is it better to kill your terrorist, or offer them peace?

Peace is the harder road, it requires courage.

Sozo
January 12th, 2005, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Bloody hell, a friendly voice!

Is Janus your whole name? Your first initial being J?

Janus
January 12th, 2005, 11:22 PM
Br. Willi
I completely agree with the concept of peace. We just disagree on how it can be best achieved. You believe the terrorists will cease if we comply. I believe we can suppress the terrorist movement's growth and ability to act which will ultimately achieve peace. Peace is the harder road to travel, in this case it demands courage of our soldiers and of our politicians as they face the world's councils. More over a resolve by the people of the said countries to back and support our troops in the objective they have been set. Diplomatic elections in Iraq by suppressing the insurgents. Peace will only be achieved through war when we are confronted by extremists who believe in war themselves until they live in an islamic world. Peace isn't an option yet.

God_Is_Truth
January 12th, 2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Thankyou God_is_truth,

"The bible has declared me a sinner" but I don't think I am, I lead a good life, I'm fairly altruistic.

have you ever lied? ever lusted after someone? ever hated somebody? ever stolen something? ever cheated? how about coveting? all of these are sins.



I'm "cut off" yet through reasoning (I'm a historian) I find it impossible to side purely with the bible when I look at the source. I don't mean to offend you I don't mean God, I mean the men that scribed it, the men that translated it. I have an elementary understanding of Latin, yet I know that the bible was originally Greek, then Latin, then English (Catholic), then protestant English, then modern English from olde English. I'm more than aware of the politicall ramifications that occured during the reformation period but it leaves me doubting what version of the bible survives!

well your best bet would be to go right to the greek manuscripts. we have quite a few of those you know.



I'd rather be my own fool than someone else's slave and surely an understanding God would understand that, if not fully supporting me.

i don't really know what you mean by this.



I have a hard time seeing Jesus or God condemning me whilst someone that has been brought up in the religion whom has never stopped to question their actions is not. Especially if my good deeds out number theirs, and in actions if not words have lived the life that Jesus intended but just not through Jesus' name.

the bottom line is that we all are condemned, every one of us. we have all sinned. you, me, pastors, teachers, football players, musicians, everyone. the only way one can be spared of the wrath incurred by the condemnation is by faith in God through the work of his Son Jesus on the cross. it is not based on our works because none of us is good enough. we've all sinned, all failed and all fallen short of the glory of God. we all need grace, and that's only through faith in the cross.

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by Janus

Bloody hell, a friendly voice!

:cool:

Janus
January 13th, 2005, 08:16 AM
"we all need grace , and that is through faith in the cross"

How can you have faith in the cross? Where do you get your information from if the evolution of the bible is 'dubious at best'?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Janus

"we all need grace , and that is through faith in the cross"

How can you have faith in the cross? Where do you get your information from if the evolution of the bible is 'dubious at best'?

What you're about to get is fundy doublespeak...

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by Janus

Dear Nineveh,
Yes but I can take you to a concentration camp. I can show you people who confessed to taking part in the the Final Solution. I can even show you graves. The teflon frying pan in my kitchen is there because they invented teflon in the space race. Countless scientific discoveries have come about only because of experiments conducted in space.

All of your "evidence" is not going to convince someone who doesn't want to believe.


Give me some facts, not deductions regarding your faith. Not what you hold true personally. Facts. Stop answering questions with a question. How can you justify the source and eligibility of the bible when its origins are at best dubious.

It was written by eyewitnesses, I can show you an empty grave, I can show you a city forgotten by men but remembered by God....

But none of my "evidence (http://www.johnankerberg.com/media-clips/media-clip-index-practical-christianity_index.html)" will convince someone who doesn't want to believe.

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

All of your "evidence" is not going to convince someone who doesn't want to believe.



It was written by eyewitnesses, I can show you an empty grave, I can show you a city forgotten by men but remembered by God....

But none of my "evidence (http://www.johnankerberg.com/media-clips/media-clip-index-practical-christianity_index.html)" will convince someone who doesn't want to believe.

Which grave? There are three that I'm aware of that various groups claim is the "real" burial site of Jesus.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

Which grave? There are three that I'm aware of that various groups claim is the "real" burial site of Jesus.

All 3 fill the record given in Scripture?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

All 3 fill the record given in Scripture?

The "record" is vague and sketchy at best. Just the same, there are three graves claimed by different groups to be the authentic resting place of Christ.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

The "record" is vague and sketchy at best.

Others (http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/editors-choice/EC0403W2.htm) say differently.


Just the same, there are three graves claimed by different groups to be the authentic resting place of Christ.

And only one will make the cut.

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 10:15 AM
I was thinking of distinguishing characteristics or a specific location that would help one find it...

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

I was thinking of distinguishing characteristics or a specific location that would help one find it...

things like: "in a garden nigh to the place where he was crucified, outside the city walls. ... that a stone was rolled against the tomb"

Do all three have these same characteristics?

Do they all show evidence of being "new" or at least "underconstruction". Are they all in a garden near the crucifixion site? Do they all have evidence of where a stone might be "rolled" infront of the opening?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

things like: "in a garden nigh to the place where he was crucified, outside the city walls. ... that a stone was rolled against the tomb"

Do all three have these same characteristics?

Do they all show evidence of being "new" or at least "underconstruction". Are they all in a garden near the crucifixion site? Do they all have evidence of where a stone might be "rolled" infront of the opening?

How, exactly, is a 2000 year old tomb going to be look new?:rolleyes:

God_Is_Truth
January 13th, 2005, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Janus

"we all need grace , and that is through faith in the cross"

How can you have faith in the cross? Where do you get your information from if the evolution of the bible is 'dubious at best'?

try those greek manuscripts i mentioned before.

Jackielabby
January 13th, 2005, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

All 3 fill the record given in Scripture?
And one of his graves is supposedly in Glastonbury Abbey, England.:confused:

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

How, exactly, is a 2000 year old tomb going to be look new?:rolleyes:

How much effort have you actually put into this investigation?

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Jackielabby

And one of his graves is supposedly in Glastonbury Abbey, England.:confused:

You mean you would't be able to mark that one off the list when compared to the Biblical account?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

How much effort have you actually put into this investigation?

Nin, you're a pro at asking questions and never answering them, so this response is typical. Believe it or not we apostates actually know a thing or two.

the Sibbie
January 13th, 2005, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Nin, you're a pro at asking questions and never answering them, so this response is typical. Believe it or not we apostates actually know a thing or two. Well then please share. I'd like to hear about the three that you know of that are claimed to be the "real" tomb.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Nin, you're a pro at asking questions and never answering them, so this response is typical. Believe it or not we apostates actually know a thing or two.

Well, I've seen the evidence. That's why I asked you how much effort you have actually put forth. Mind answering the question now?

I read your "coming out" thread. It appeared to me the only thing you left was a church buliding. Are you sure "apostate" fits you?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Well, I've seen the evidence. That's why I asked you how much effort you have actually put forth. Mind answering the question now?

I read your "coming out" thread. It appeared to me the only thing you left was a church buliding. Are you sure "apostate" fits you?

Yep, I'm pretty sure. And I've read enough to know that no one agrees if the "tombs" claimed to be Jesus' actually are. And there happens to be more than one claimant, as well.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 01:34 PM
Like I asked before...

Do they all have the same characteristics? Surely they do not all have the Bible account backing them up.

Please be sure not to over look Sibbie's post:

" Well then please share. I'd like to hear about the three that you know of that are claimed to be the "real" tomb."

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 01:35 PM
If all you're looking for is a tomb outside Jerusalem, plenty fit the bill. These are referred to as the tomb of Jesus more out of church tradition than anything else.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

If all you're looking for is a tomb outside Jerusalem, plenty fit the bill.

But that's not all the Bible says is it? Or did you not read the link?


These are referred to as the tomb of Jesus more out of church tradition than anything else.

Then we don't have to "count them in" if they don't muster up, do we?

Do you have any links for Sibbie?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 01:42 PM
NONE of them past muster. That's the point.

Anyway I think we've both hijacked this thread long enough...

Poly
January 13th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by granite1010



Anyway I think we've both hijacked this thread long enough...

Sibbie, looks like you've got him on the run. (I'm sure you expected nothing less.)

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

NONE of them past muster. That's the point.

That is only true if you want to be dishonest.


Anyway I think we've both hijacked this thread long enough...

Not really. This is a thread about "choosing a religion". The garden tomb is an evidence for Christ.

Don't have a link for Sibbie?

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Nineveh, an empty tomb doesn't prove a thing.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Neither do your empty arguments.

the Sibbie
January 13th, 2005, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

NONE of them past muster. That's the point.

Anyway I think we've both hijacked this thread long enough... Well, could you at least post links about the 3 tombs you referred to? I've never read about these but think they would be interesting to read at the least.

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Neither do your empty arguments.

That's funny coming from you.

Sibbie, I'll grab the link when I have a sec.

Granite
January 13th, 2005, 02:14 PM
Here's the two most famous:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a026.html

Another in India--yes, India--won't be anything but comic relief for Nineveh, I'm sure, but it's claimed to be the tomb of Jesus. Need to find a link for the article in the "Fortean Times."

the Sibbie
January 13th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Thanks, granite. :)

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Here's the two most famous:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a026.html

Thank you granite :)


Another in India--yes, India--won't be anything but comic relief for Nineveh, I'm sure, but it's claimed to be the tomb of Jesus. Need to find a link for the article in the "Fortean Times."

Well, compared to the Biblical account, we can tell this one wouldn't be a candidate can't we?

Honestly, is if fair to even include this one?

Janus
January 13th, 2005, 06:23 PM
I think I've got it now. To be a Christian you pick a story you want to believe in and you just stick to it. Its a bit like being in court. All the evidence might be against you. But you don't take any of it on board because if you were to, it would mean admitting that you've made a terrible mistake.

Back on to the ancient texts. The Vatican has locked away plenty of apocrypha. What about the texts that didn't even get into the bible. It wasn't Jesus, nor his diciples, nor any of the apostles that composed the Bible. It was an elcted Roman council 3 centuries after Jesus had died. I still maintain you cannot use the bible in argument to justify faith as it is unreliable.

Nineveh
January 13th, 2005, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Janus

I think I've got it now. To be a Christian you pick a story you want to believe in and you just stick to it. Its a bit like being in court. All the evidence might be against you. But you don't take any of it on board because if you were to, it would mean admitting that you've made a terrible mistake.

"Pick a story"? I don't get your context. Granite, Sibbie and I have been talking about the Garden Tomb. He claims there are "many" "claimed" tombs I say there is only one that fits the Biblical evidence. So maybe I'm not following because of what has recently been spoken about.


Back on to the ancient texts. The Vatican has locked away plenty of apocrypha. What about the texts that didn't even get into the bible. It wasn't Jesus, nor his diciples, nor any of the apostles that composed the Bible. It was an elcted Roman council 3 centuries after Jesus had died. I still maintain you cannot use the bible in argument to justify faith as it is unreliable.

Well, if that's what you believe, then I guess you should take:

3. Judaism
4. (Catholic)
5. Christianity (Protestant)
6. Christian (Baptist)

off your list.

Janus
January 13th, 2005, 08:34 PM
That last quote is undisputed by scholars. The bible was compiled in its entirity centuries after Jesus. Sure I'm willing to accept Mark wrote the book of Mark but does that make Mark right. When was the bible written then if you disagree with the historians? Why isn't it open to mistranslation, unless you have a genuine copy of the thing and can read Greek or ancient Aramaic. Isn't it possible if you believe in God and Satan that Satan being the biggest con artist there ever was got involved in the whole publishing of it. The Qu'ran is only the Qu'ran if its in Arabic. Why, because the muslims realised that any scripture is prone to alteration and so they tried to put a stop to it. Remember Salman Rushdie and the Satanic Rites? That was all over an insinuation that the Qu'ran was changed in just one paragraph. Don't just palm me off with 'well if thats what you believe thats ok because I know where I'm going when I die'. This is your opportunity to convert me. Save me. Give me a strong factually based argument for your beliefs so that I can believe too. Prove the Bible to be genuine, or don't use it in your argument. Don't justify the bible as an object that you need to have faith in, I need facts. My mind is open. Sell it to me.

Incidentally Islam,budhism, confucianism, seikhism and hinduism all seem to be far more understanding and tolerant of other religions. Don't get me wrong I've nothing against Christians but I have issues with the infrastructure and the organization of the Christian church, especially the vatican. If Britain joins the EU the Queen's sovereignty could be threatened. Decisions regarding Britain may be made by Europen politicians with more loyalty to the Pope than their own countries.
If the Christian faith is the true faith then I need to be told why, using facts why it is so, taking all of these arguments into account.

Frank Ernest
January 14th, 2005, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by :mock:J'anus

Billy Hick,
Good! All commie socialists believe their opponents are sub-human idiots. :rolleyes:


I'd question whether you truly understand communisim, facism or liberalism.
'Course you would. That's because he does truly understand C, F and L. That's why :BillyBob: rejects them all. :up:


The former soviet block spoke openly acted against homosexuality, very much in the same ilk as yourself. Read a book.
AHA! Sooooooo, your definition of a just government is whether or not it loves queers. :shocked:


My country's socialist government fifty years ago formed the national health service and all medical work in this country is free.
And your tax rate is? :1Way:


Despite your concerns for English dentistry I have wonderful teeth, not everything you read in guns`n'ammo is true.
Your teeth. True or false? :confused:


Read a book.
I have. Several. You? :o


The left party in this country is far right of anything in your country, we have history, integrity and, whether you love him or loathe him, a prime minister that can string a sentence.
:darwinsm: Zimbabwe? :noway:


How is George W.?
Looking good! :thumb:


Buy the looks of things by your presidential campaign, representative democracy is all but dead. I find it incredulous that you might be offering theological advice to somebody.
Read a book.
:darwinsm: :loser:
Your post gives new meaning and life to the word "incredulous." :dunce:

wickwoman
January 14th, 2005, 07:52 AM
Dear Janus:

I'm stepping in a few pages late. Please excuse me if I repeat something already said.

There is no "true faith" to be found outside your own heart. All religions are created by men, men make mistakes. However, the Spirit can reveal to you the wisdom you seek. If/when you find it, don't try to make a religion of it. This is where the problems arise. Spend time meditating and you will find the answers in a couple hundred lifetimes. The searching is what makes it worth getting up in the morning. ;) But sometimes take a break from your searching and enjoy a sunset. Some truths are right in front of your face.

If you'd like to read the writings of an enlightened Christian, try Thomas Merton. The Dhammapada records the sayings of the Buddha, he was a fully realized human being. The Bhagavad Gita tells the story of another realized human being and it could very well be another account of the life of the man Christians call Jesus. For that matter, the Buddha could have been that same man or an incarnation of his spirit. If you've done the New Testament sayings attributed to Jesus already, try some gnostic accounts - the Gospel of Thomas is interesting. It provides another perspective on the gospel.

Don't get caught up in the diversity of it all. The diversity is caused by men. There is a union to be found among all the holy scriptures of all the great religions. That union points to a common inspiration - one God, not many.

When a truth is forced upon another, it is ineffective and meaningless. But, sharing of truth among humankind is the way to live truth.

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Janus

I think I've got it now. To be a Christian you pick a story you want to believe in and you just stick to it. Its a bit like being in court. All the evidence might be against you. But you don't take any of it on board because if you were to, it would mean admitting that you've made a terrible mistake.

Back on to the ancient texts. The Vatican has locked away plenty of apocrypha. What about the texts that didn't even get into the bible. It wasn't Jesus, nor his diciples, nor any of the apostles that composed the Bible. It was an elcted Roman council 3 centuries after Jesus had died. I still maintain you cannot use the bible in argument to justify faith as it is unreliable.

Janus, congratulations: you catch on quickly!

"Doublethink" is not just a means of controlling political propaganda and checking civil heresy. It's a way of justifying your religion, as well. Orwell knew more about total control than most people think when they read "1984."

When all else fails--and when the evidence is stacked against you and your own dogma is inexplicable to even you--shrug it off as a "mystery" and pull your ace out of the hole. The "ace" being, of course, "faith", even when clearly contradicted or challenged by what your own eyes are looking at.

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 09:14 AM
Dear Granite,
I'm genuinely concerned for these people. They believe they're serving God yet I wonder who has taught them about God. Someone somewhere is pulling their strings and worst of all they don't realise it. At least wickwoman sounds quite open minded and happy go lucky. Its a breath of fresh air - I'm always being told I'm going to burn in hell!

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Janus

Dear Granite,
I'm genuinely concerned for these people. They believe they're serving God yet I wonder who has taught them about God. Someone somewhere is pulling their strings and worst of all they don't realise it. At least wickwoman sounds quite open minded and happy go lucky. Its a breath of fresh air - I'm always being told I'm going to burn in hell!

Oh, Wick's a doll.:D

But yes, I do feel some concern...not necessarily afraid OF these people, but I feel sorry for them.

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by Janus

That last quote is undisputed by scholars. The bible was compiled in its entirity centuries after Jesus.

The books were all written and being passed around the Churches well before the RCC ever came into existance.



Sure I'm willing to accept Mark wrote the book of Mark but does that make Mark right. When was the bible written then if you disagree with the historians?

I was disagreeing with your half truth.


Why isn't it open to mistranslation, unless you have a genuine copy of the thing and can read Greek or ancient Aramaic.

There are scads of fragments and transcripts out there.


Isn't it possible if you believe in God and Satan that Satan being the biggest con artist there ever was got involved in the whole publishing of it.

God promises His Words will not pass from us, and I believe He is much more powerful than created beings.


The Qu'ran is only the Qu'ran if its in Arabic. Why, because the muslims realised that any scripture is prone to alteration and so they tried to put a stop to it. Remember Salman Rushdie and the Satanic Rites?

I remember Satanic Verses.


That was all over an insinuation that the Qu'ran was changed in just one paragraph.

I guess I should ask if you have any quarrel with how the Qu'ran was "written/compiled".


Don't just palm me off with 'well if thats what you believe thats ok because I know where I'm going when I die'. This is your opportunity to convert me.

What makes you think I have some special power to force you to believe something you don't wanna believe?


Save me.

Sorry, that's not in my job description. You might want to ask Christ to do that though :)


Give me a strong factually based argument for your beliefs so that I can believe too.

I could give you some of the reasons I accepted Christ, but it would be akin to showing pics of the moon landing to someone who doesn't want to believe it happened.


Prove the Bible to be genuine, or don't use it in your argument. Don't justify the bible as an object that you need to have faith in, I need facts. My mind is open. Sell it to me.

I have never claimed one should put their faith in the Bible, rather I desire people put their faith in Christ.

I think your mind is about as open as Fort Knox.


Incidentally Islam,budhism, confucianism, seikhism and hinduism all seem to be far more understanding and tolerant of other religions.

You have got to be joking! Islam's goal is to wipe out the "infidels". That would be anyone who doesn't bend a knee to allah. Namely Jews and Christians.


Don't get me wrong I've nothing against Christians but I have issues with the infrastructure and the organization of the Christian church, especially the vatican.

Me too :)


If Britain joins the EU the Queen's sovereignty could be threatened. Decisions regarding Britain may be made by Europen politicians with more loyalty to the Pope than their own countries.

It's sad... Brittian used to be Protestant.


If the Christian faith is the true faith then I need to be told why, using facts why it is so, taking all of these arguments into account.

I came to know Christ by reading the Bible, not attending a denomination. I came to realize this God was telling me the Truth of the matter, I was a sinner and there was nothing I could do to undo what I had done. This is a heart matter. You, like every other person, has the free will to choose to accept or reject Christ.

My advice to you is to pick up a Bible, pray the God of that Book will guide you and read it. Read the NT gospel accounts and decide, is this God the One you want to serve or not.

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 10:04 AM
hey, Janus, before you jump into dave's congregation with ww, you might want to consider her god is "s/he-isallinall". Personally, considering a child molester as part of my god is just a touch too open minded for me.

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 10:19 AM
"The books were all written and being passed around the Churches well before the RCC ever came into existance."

Exactly- open to annotation

"There are scads of fragments and transcripts out there."

Exactly by authors of unknown origin and fragmnets at best. How can the whole truth ever be know if we only have fragments. The last line of the bible could have been, 'only joking, just go out and have a good time, there is no afterlife!'


"God promises His Words will not pass from us, and I believe He is much more powerful than created beings."

Promises in the bible of dubious origins.

"I could give you some of the reasons I accepted Christ, but it would be akin to showing pics of the moon landing to someone who doesn't want to believe it happened."

I'm not here to mock your religion. It may seem that way sometimes but I'm not. Any offered reasoning may give me an insight.


"I have never claimed one should put their faith in the Bible, rather I desire people put their faith in Christ."

Fine but all we know of Christ is what man and the bible tells us, both of which as sources are flawed.

"I think your mind is about as open as Fort Knox."
Ditto



"You have got to be joking! Islam's goal is to wipe out the "infidels". That would be anyone who doesn't bend a knee to allah. Namely Jews and Christians."
Only according to the extremists, which both Judaism (orthodox Judaism regarding the Israeli road map) and Christianity (think Crusades, the bile belt erradicating Darwinism and BillyBob)



"It's sad... Brittian used to be Protestant."
It still is, the declaration is 'Defender of THE Faith' rather than just faith.


"My advice to you is to pick up a Bible, pray the God of that Book will guide you and read it. Read the NT gospel accounts and decide, is this God the One you want to serve or not."

I have I just didn't stop there! I read a translation of the Qu'ran, the Torah too. Confucius and greek philosophy. I also studied European and Ancient history to trace the evolution of religion.

I'm still worried about Christian doctrine and its effects; political and moral

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Janus

Exactly- open to annotation

Do you have any info backing that up?


Exactly by authors of unknown origin and fragmnets at best. How can the whole truth ever be know if we only have fragments. The last line of the bible could have been, 'only joking, just go out and have a good time, there is no afterlife!'

Ever hear of the Caves of Qumran?

The authors of the books are the same as the autographs, did you mean to say "unknown copiers"? They didn't have Xerox back then...


Promises in the bible of dubious origins.

According to you.


I'm not here to mock your religion. It may seem that way sometimes but I'm not. Any offered reasoning may give me an insight.

I don't have a "religion", I have faith in Christ. And I do think you are being a tad dishonest about whether you mock or not. Just as I think you are a tad dishonest about your open mindedness.


Fine but all we know of Christ is what man and the bible tells us, both of which as sources are flawed.

According to you.


Ditto

I never claimed to be "open minded" :)


Only according to the extremists, which both Judaism (orthodox Judaism regarding the Israeli road map) and Christianity (think Crusades, the bile belt erradicating Darwinism and BillyBob)

You should read up on some islamic history.


It still is, the declaration is 'Defender of THE Faith' rather than just faith.

Not according to what I have read recently. In fact, (wish I'd bookmarked it now) there was an article about how Brittian couldn't be considered Christian any longer. The majority over there are either pagan or islamic.


I have I just didn't stop there! I read a translation of the Qu'ran, the Torah too. Confucius and greek philosophy. I also studied European and Ancient history to trace the evolution of religion.

Really? You prayed to each god of each of those writtings for guidence as your read them?


I'm still worried about Christian doctrine and its effects; political and moral

If you are "worried" about it, then why on earth would you want to "join" it?

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 10:36 AM
"The books were all written and being passed around the Churches well before the RCC ever came into existance."

Who said anything about the Catholic church? The canon was codified by majority vote in the third century. Books were chosen, books were discarded, and God help you if the council decided you were a heretic.

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by granite1010
Who said anything about the Catholic church? The canon was codified by majority vote in the third century. Books were chosen, books were discarded, and God help you if the council decided you were a heretic.

"It was an elcted Roman council 3 centuries after Jesus had died." -Janus

I could be mistaken as to what he meant by that, but my point is the same. The books were already in existence and being used by the Chruches by that time.

Sorry if I misunderstood you on that point Janus.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Janus
I'm still worried about Christian doctrine and its effects; political and moral

First of all, what are you worried about? Secondly, what is your basis for morality?

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 11:10 AM
Nineveh,
When I said The Faith I was talking about the declartion the British sovereign makes to His or Her country. Of course Islam believes itself to be true but Mohammed was still charitable to the Christians just as was Alexander the Great and Cyrus the Great to other denominations. I'm still worried about the Christian effects on moralit and political life. I'm still here because I don't believe in walking away from a problem nor putting my head in the sand. I don't have faith in that the problem will be taken care of by a higher power, therefore I address it myself. Initially by learning more about it
which is why I'm here.

The caves of Qumran, authors unknown.
I am openminded. The reason why we don't see eye to eye is just that. I am willing to argue points logically, you will always revert back to faith or scripture. Faith is unproven, scripture open to interpretation hence the multitude of religions and multiple schisms in Christianity.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Janus
I'm still here because I don't believe in walking away from a problem nor putting my head in the sand. I don't have faith in that the problem will be taken care of by a higher power, therefore I address it myself. Initially by learning more about it
which is why I'm here.

What exactly is this problem you keep talking about?

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 11:26 AM
The Church vote is widly regarded as a winner for Bush in the election.

The Papal hold over the EU states and Catholic politcians which directly affects day to to day living and long term policy, even the Queen's soverignty.

The 'higher moral ground' attitude that all churches share that make non-christian states resent America and by connection the West, attributing to proliferation and destabalising international affairs.

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Janus
When I said The Faith I was talking about the declartion the British sovereign makes to His or Her country.

Oh, well I was talking about "in reality"...


Of course Islam believes itself to be true but Mohammed was still charitable to the Christians just as was Alexander the Great and Cyrus the Great to other denominations.

So charitable in fact muslims hold Christians as slaves in the Sudan.


I'm still worried about the Christian effects on moralit and political life.

You really should answer OEJ's question.

Anyway, I could see where a pagan might have conflicts with not murdering, committing adultery, stealing, honoring parents and the like....


I'm still here because I don't believe in walking away from a problem nor putting my head in the sand.

And what is your problem? That there are some who dare follow Christ, even after all of your rationilzations against Him?


I don't have faith in that the problem will be taken care of by a higher power, therefore I address it myself. Initially by learning more about it which is why I'm here.

Thank you for exposing your claim to "openmindedness" as being a lie. At least you can quit claiming you want to be "converted", now.


The caves of Qumran, authors unknown.

Do a little more research on that, k?


I am openminded.

Now, now...


The reason why we don't see eye to eye is just that. I am willing to argue points logically, you will always revert back to faith or scripture.

Stop being dishonest. It's not going to get you anywhere. To correct you misconception, we don't see eye to eye because I repented of what you are now, and I used to be.


Faith is unproven,

Faith is the evidence of things unseen.


scripture open to interpretation hence the multitude of religions and multiple schisms in Christianity.

The only folks I see who misuse Scripture are those who need to make themselves right. wickwoman, your hero, is a master at it. Anyway, denominations aren't Christ. You yourself don't believe people should have faith in the Bible, yet you think it's ok people have faith in denominations?

Nineveh
January 14th, 2005, 11:28 AM
Why do you keep blaming the pope for being a Christian?

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 11:38 AM
I'm not blaming anyone, I've said all along if it works for you good on yer. Join a theology online site and I'm going to question all aspects of your theory. Because thats what it is, a theory. Remove the scripture as evidence as it has come under doubt and there is no longer any more evidence. Faith is defined as trust or confidence in someone or something and by definition therefore is not evidence in its own right. Open your minds to this and ask yourselves whether the theory stands true using the intelligence that God granted all of us, whatever you believe God to be, an ideal or an actual being is irreleveant. Show me a theory that is watertight then I will convert. So far you've been unable to do so.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Janus

The Church vote is widly regarded as a winner for Bush in the election.

How is this a problem for you?


The Papal hold over the EU states and Catholic politcians which directly affects day to to day living and long term policy, even the Queen's soverignty.

This isn't a problem for me.


The 'higher moral ground' attitude that all churches share that make non-christian states resent America and by connection the West, attributing to proliferation and destabalising international affairs.

So, you think if America became less Christian, the rest of the world would like us more? This isn't a popularity contest, Janus.

Lighthouse
January 14th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Janus

The Papal hold over the EU states and Catholic politcians which directly affects day to to day living and long term policy, even the Queen's soverignty.
Is it just me or are you ignoring the fact that most Catholic politicians are democrats? Kennedy, and Kerry are the two that immediately come to mind.

So, the Pope has nothing to do with the church vote that got Bush re-elected. Catholics and protestants are seperate, even in politics.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Janus

I'm not blaming anyone, I've said all along if it works for you good on yer. Join a theology online site and I'm going to question all aspects of your theory. Because thats what it is, a theory. Remove the scripture as evidence as it has come under doubt and there is no longer any more evidence. Faith is defined as trust or confidence in someone or something and by definition therefore is not evidence in its own right. Open your minds to this and ask yourselves whether the theory stands true using the intelligence that God granted all of us, whatever you believe God to be, an ideal or an actual being is irreleveant. Show me a theory that is watertight then I will convert. So far you've been unable to do so.

Why don't you tell us your beliefs? We'll see how watertight they are.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Is it just me or are you ignoring the fact that most Catholic politicians are democrats? Kennedy, and Kerry are the two that immediately come to mind.

So, the Pope has nothing to do with the church vote that got Bush re-elected. Catholics and protestants are seperate, even in politics.

Dude, he's talking about the EU there.

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 11:58 AM
I'm here to form my beliefs.

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 12:01 PM
One side of the argument is that religion should hold no sway over politics nor a state. An individual's relationship with his maker is their choice. When it involves more than that it becomes political.

Lighthouse
January 14th, 2005, 12:05 PM
What's EU? And why did he bring up the church vote getting Bush re-elected, then bring in the pope and Catholic politicians, if he isn't trying to make a connection?

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 12:08 PM
European Union.

Poly
January 14th, 2005, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Janus

I'm here to form my beliefs.

Baloney!! You had your mind made up before you ever typed one word on this forum.

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 12:10 PM
Well, let's at least TRY to give someone the benefit of the doubt...

...although with a name like "Janus" it is a little hard to.:D

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Well, let's at least TRY to give someone the benefit of the doubt...

...although with a name like "Janus" it is a little hard to.:D

Yeah, that's about as two-faced as you can get, ain't it? ;)

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 12:13 PM
:cool:

Glad somebody caught the reference.

One Eyed Jack
January 14th, 2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

What's EU?

Granite's already answered that one.


And why did he bring up the church vote getting Bush re-elected, then bring in the pope and Catholic politicians, if he isn't trying to make a connection?

I dunno. Maybe he's scramble-headed.

wickwoman
January 14th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Dear Janus & Granite:

Actually I am the 2 time nominee recipient of "most annoying poster." But I think "doll" and "open minded" are better descriptions. Thanks! :D

Granite
January 14th, 2005, 01:15 PM
:thumb:

anami
January 14th, 2005, 01:17 PM
Janus, please do not get frustrated by such responses and stop posting, we need more thinking people on this board.
Some of these kind of arguments make you wonder if there is a reason to write, but there are only a few of these posting, the rest actually debate (usually)




Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Good! All commie socialists believe their opponents are sub-human idiots. :rolleyes:

'Course you would. That's because he does truly understand C, F and L. That's why :BillyBob: rejects them all. :up:

AHA! Sooooooo, your definition of a just government is whether or not it loves queers. :shocked:

And your tax rate is? :1Way:

Your teeth. True or false? :confused:

I have. Several. You? :o

:darwinsm: Zimbabwe? :noway:

Looking good! :thumb:

:darwinsm: :loser:
Your post gives new meaning and life to the word "incredulous." :dunce:

At least you got a relatively cheery welcome, and a few bits of support.

everyone even the athiests thinks i'm totally nuts.

i am glad for thinking arguments, so no matter if we end up on the same or opposing sides of a debate, i will be happy to not have to debate a list of smilies.

anami
January 14th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Janus

Dear Granite,
I'm genuinely concerned for these people. They believe they're serving God yet I wonder who has taught them about God. Someone somewhere is pulling their strings and worst of all they don't realise it. At least wickwoman sounds quite open minded and happy go lucky. Its a breath of fresh air - I'm always being told I'm going to burn in hell!

i agree with you here, it seems to me the religion most suiting to christianities fear of other religions, is actually christianity. The only prophet i have ever come up that fits the bill of the false prophets in the bible, is the bible. False prophet with a huge congregation, movin into the mainstream to gain members. i don't want to go too much further with this here because it might get me banned (i mean no offense, just a suggestion, harmless words, oh administrator of power) but suffice to say i think christians may be one of "God's" ironic jokes.

anami
January 14th, 2005, 01:29 PM
By the way this took me forever to get, which made it really confusing to read my posts for awhile,

When you want to start a little quote box you put

text texte text

Capitalize all of the letters in quote and remember no slash in the first one slash in the second.

ok i am editing this because aparently it is not cap. sensative it's
[ QUOTE] TEXTTEXTTEXT[ /QUOTE] without the spaces i added.


Originally posted by Janus

"The books were all written and being passed around the Churches well before the RCC ever came into existance."

Exactly- open to annotation

"There are scads of fragments and transcripts out there."

Exactly by authors of unknown origin and fragmnets at best. How can the whole truth ever be know if we only have fragments. The last line of the bible could have been, 'only joking, just go out and have a good time, there is no afterlife!'


"God promises His Words will not pass from us, and I believe He is much more powerful than created beings."

Promises in the bible of dubious origins.

"I could give you some of the reasons I accepted Christ, but it would be akin to showing pics of the moon landing to someone who doesn't want to believe it happened."

I'm not here to mock your religion. It may seem that way sometimes but I'm not. Any offered reasoning may give me an insight.


"I have never claimed one should put their faith in the Bible, rather I desire people put their faith in Christ."

Fine but all we know of Christ is what man and the bible tells us, both of which as sources are flawed.

"I think your mind is about as open as Fort Knox."
Ditto



"You have got to be joking! Islam's goal is to wipe out the "infidels". That would be anyone who doesn't bend a knee to allah. Namely Jews and Christians."
Only according to the extremists, which both Judaism (orthodox Judaism regarding the Israeli road map) and Christianity (think Crusades, the bile belt erradicating Darwinism and BillyBob)



"It's sad... Brittian used to be Protestant."
It still is, the declaration is 'Defender of THE Faith' rather than just faith.


"My advice to you is to pick up a Bible, pray the God of that Book will guide you and read it. Read the NT gospel accounts and decide, is this God the One you want to serve or not."

I have I just didn't stop there! I read a translation of the Qu'ran, the Torah too. Confucius and greek philosophy. I also studied European and Ancient history to trace the evolution of religion.

I'm still worried about Christian doctrine and its effects; political and moral

Zakath
January 14th, 2005, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by the Sibbie

Picky, picky...atheist, agnostic...potayto, potahto. ...Christian, Gnostic... :chuckle:

Janus
January 14th, 2005, 10:38 PM
I brought up Bush and the EU because of religion's misplaced authority in the leadership of any country, democratic or otherwise.

If someone else's religion affects us, whomever's it may be we are supressed just as we are in a dictatorship. People feel loyalty to a faith regardless of its doctrine( see Catholic and protestant faiths) and will adhere to it regardless of their better judgement

Janus a pseudonym, look to roman mythology.

To quote, "Baloney. . . you had your mind made up. . ."
Jesus sees a sinner, " No you're a sinner, don't hit me with that I want you to teach me stuff.......you're damned." NOT LIKELY

Read the bible again you've lost the messgae somewhere. If I say I'm open minded be mature enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.

Frank Ernest
January 15th, 2005, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by :mock:anami

Janus, please do not get frustrated by such responses and stop posting, we need more thinking people on this board.
Some of these kind of arguments make you wonder if there is a reason to write, but there are only a few of these posting, the rest actually debate (usually)
:darwinsm:


At least you got a relatively cheery welcome, and a few bits of support.
:sheep:


everyone even the athiests thinks i'm totally nuts.
Majority Rulez! :alien:


i am glad for thinking arguments,
Got one? :troy:


so no matter if we end up on the same or opposing sides of a debate, i will be happy to not have to debate a list of smilies.
Cool! :cloud9:

BillyBob
January 15th, 2005, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by Banus
:shut:

Frank Ernest
January 15th, 2005, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by :mock:J'anus

I brought up Bush and the EU because of religion's misplaced authority in the leadership of any country, democratic or otherwise.
Middle East, anyone?


If someone else's religion affects us, whomever's it may be we are supressed just as we are in a dictatorship. People feel loyalty to a faith regardless of its doctrine( see Catholic and protestant faiths) and will adhere to it regardless of their better judgement
See communism, socialism, liberalism, etc.


Janus a pseudonym, look to roman mythology.
Did that. Picture of two-faced god. :think:


To quote, "Baloney. . . you had your mind made up. . ."
Jesus sees a sinner, " No you're a sinner, don't hit me with that I want you to teach me stuff.......you're damned." NOT LIKELY
Quite likely.


Read the bible again you've lost the messgae somewhere. If I say I'm open minded be mature enough to give me the benefit of the doubt.
Open-minded = Empty-headed
That cover it for ya? :chuckle:

wickwoman
January 16th, 2005, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Frank Ernest
Open-minded = Empty-headed
That cover it for ya? :chuckle:

Really? I would think it's the opposite. I mean, can anything get into a closed mind?

servent101
January 16th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Janus
post number one - no religion (hence atheist?),

Just because your not a member of a church does not mean you are an athiest - a lot of people who go to church, eventually leave, and are just fine, and probably better off than the ones that stay in the stigma campaigns and the self righteous indignation that organised chruces (some anyways) tend to breed in people.

as far as I can tell, your doing just fine.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

BillyBob
January 16th, 2005, 01:06 PM
You guys keep responding to 'Janus' even though he's been banned.....

LightSon
January 16th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Does someone have a link to Janus-Banus' bannable statement? I'm always curious as to what gets people banned. I searched for it, but was not successful.

anami
January 16th, 2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

Does someone have a link to Janus-Banus' bannable statement? I'm always curious as to what gets people banned. I searched for it, but was not successful.

Talking about why people got banned is apparently #15.

anami
January 16th, 2005, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by anami

Talking about why people got banned is apparently #15.

They had a list but i don't know how to find it on the site...sketch.

BillyBob
January 16th, 2005, 03:43 PM
I forgot where it happened, ask Turbo.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know why a poster gets banned, it helps the rest of the posters to understand what is and what isn't acceptable.

anami
January 16th, 2005, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I forgot where it happened, ask Turbo.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know why a poster gets banned, it helps the rest of the posters to understand what is and what isn't acceptable.

#15 is something like...
"Thou shalt not discuss the banning of other members in a public forum." or something such as that.

it had to do with you though, funny how you were not even insulted enough to remember. ooo, maybe it wasn't you, there's one other option...

Lighthouse
January 16th, 2005, 06:44 PM
LightSon-
PM Turbo if you want to know why. I'm sure he can provide the link.

bigtuna
January 18th, 2005, 08:58 PM
Do what you want, just don't take Judaism. It's a cultural religion like Paganism that is not designed for foriegn involvement. For you, you could always just live a life of religious humility and click none of the above.

Mr. 5020
January 18th, 2005, 10:52 PM
Maybe Janus should become a Banutian.

Jackielabby
January 19th, 2005, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I forgot where it happened, ask Turbo.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know why a poster gets banned, it helps the rest of the posters to understand what is and what isn't acceptable.

Too right, BB. Once again I find myself agreeing with you. Atheists (or commies as we are often referred to)and xians can agree on things. :)