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brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:32 PM
"I see all the different religious traditions as paths for the development of inner peace, which is the true foundation of world peace. These ancient traditions come to us as a gift from our common past. Will we continue to cherish it as a gift and hand it over to the future generations as a legacy of our shared desire for peace?"

the Dalai Lama

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:think:

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 02:42 PM
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Jesus Christ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:think:

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 02:42 PM
Oh, a quote thread!

"I have got little feet because nothing grows in the shade"

Dolly Parton

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 02:43 PM
There is a way that seems right to a man*, But its end is the way of death.

Solomon, Proverbs 14:12, 16:25




*like the Dalai Lama, for instance.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:54 PM
didnt Jesus say somethin about testin the spirits?

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 02:56 PM
Yep.


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

The Dalai Lama fails the test.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Yep.


Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

The Dalai Lama fails the test.
why?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 02:58 PM
Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

does The Dalai Lama speak of love?

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

why? See post number 2.

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 03:02 PM
"You shall have no other gods before Me."

God

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:think:

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

does The Dalai Lama speak of love?

Yup. So does NAMBLA.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

"You shall have no other gods before Me."

God

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:think:
YEP

but The Dalai Lama makes no claims to being God.
only a wise man.

or am i wrong?

Granite
September 22nd, 2004, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

"I see all the different religious traditions as paths for the development of inner peace, which is the true foundation of world peace. These ancient traditions come to us as a gift from our common past. Will we continue to cherish it as a gift and hand it over to the future generations as a legacy of our shared desire for peace?"

the Dalai Lama

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:think:

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Somebody other than Jesus talking about love and peace? Time for a stiff shot of Christian xenophobia!

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Somebody other than Jesus talking about love and peace? Time for a stiff shot of Christian xenophobia!

Nothing wrong with other's speaking of love and peace.

They just don't carry the weight of spiritual authority for Christians, any more than, say, the words of Winston Churchill or Mao.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Nothing wrong with other's speaking of love and peace. ok



They just don't carry the weight of spiritual authority for Christians, any more than, say, the words of Winston Churchill or Mao.
what of those who follow the words of the Dalai Lama, are his words against Jesus?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

ok


what of those who follow the words of the Dalai Lama, are his words against Jesus?

They follow a false path.

Christ tells us that He is the one way, the only way to the Father.

There are plenty of paths, and if Christ was a liar, then the they all might be OK.

I believe otherwise.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Crow

They follow a false path.

Christ tells us that He is the one way, the only way to the Father.

There are plenty of paths, and if Christ was a liar, then the they all might be OK.

I believe otherwise.
if i never heard of Jesus, would you rather i listened to hitler, or the Dalai Lama?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

if i never heard of Jesus, would you rather i listened to hitler, or the Dalai Lama?

Neither. You would be less dangerous if you listened to the Dalai Lama, but you'd still be on a path that doesn't lead to salvation.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Neither. You would be less dangerous if you listened to the Dalai Lama, but you'd still be on a path that doesn't lead to salvation.
so only Christians get to go to Heaven???

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:48 PM
would a JUST God send folks to hell because they never heard of Jesus???

Knight
September 22nd, 2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

would a JUST God send folks to hell because they never heard of Jesus??? Are you asserting the Dalai Lama never heard of Jesus?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

would a JUST God send folks to hell because they never heard of Jesus???

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Lucky
September 22nd, 2004, 11:05 PM
There's them precious red letters, bW. The words of Jesus. Do you think Jesus was lying when he spoke those words? (John 14:6)

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by Crow

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."
i tell you this, many of other faiths are better Christians then many of you here.

and when they come to Jesus, he will know them as his.

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Lucky

There's them precious red letters, bW. The words of Jesus. Do you think Jesus was lying when he spoke those words? (John 14:6)
Jesus said those words, it is you that do NOT understand them

Turbo
September 23rd, 2004, 07:13 AM
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jesus Christ, John 3:17-18


"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ...So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Paul, Romans 10:9-15, 17

...Not that the Dalai Lama hasn't heard.

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jesus Christ, John 3:17-18


"...that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, 'Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.' For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For 'whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.'

"How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? ...So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." - Paul, Romans 10:9-15, 17

...Not that the Dalai Lama hasn't heard.

the Dalai Lama has in his words done more then you

he knows Jesus, and Jesus knows him

Turbo
September 23rd, 2004, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

the Dalai Lama has in his words done more then youDone more to what?


he knows Jesus, and Jesus knows him Your quote in the opening post indicates otherwise. He's teaching that any god (or gods) will do, leading people away from the True and Living God.

aikido7
September 23rd, 2004, 03:09 PM
Jesus did say that "God is greater than I" in the Book of John, but he also said "The Father and I are One."

If God is love--which is biblical--then Jesus is love as well.

No man comes to the father except through Me (Love). Since Jesus was not like most humans going around glorifying his ego, his human persona, I think that whenever he referred to himself like this he was not focusing on the transient individual who lived and died in the first century.

He was taliking about his meaning and significance. I don't have any problem with seeing that all people come to God through love--no matter what cultural expression ("religion" or" belief" of that love they were born into.


leading people away from the True and Living God.

He is not leading people away from the True and Living God. He is leading all people and all religions away from claiming that their particular, cultural expression of that "True and Living God" is not the only one througout history or on the planet today.

You can't get to God without going through Jesus--but to more and more people, "Jesus" means so much more than the man who walked the dusty roads of Palestine in the first century.

John's gospel speaks of him as "the Way, the Truth., the Light." Those are qualities any religious or secular person can come to in their quest for divinity.

Turbo
September 23rd, 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by aikido7

John's gospel speaks of him as "the Way, the Truth., the Light." Really? Which verse are you quoting?

aikido7
September 23rd, 2004, 03:50 PM
Don't know. John's gospel is full of the magnificent "I Am" statements: "I am the light of the world," "I am the vine," etc.
If you have a concordance, you can easily find the specific verse.

John's Jesus has no parables, exorcisms or concern for the downtrodden. Most of this gospel has him speaking in long, densly-packed monologues on theology and mysticism concerned mainly with his importance and the necesssicty of believing in him. Since at the late time it was written, there is a bit of anti-Semiitism put into Jesus mouth ("Jews are devils") because at that time the early Christian movement was bumping up against the jewish majority in the Mediterranean and wanted to show their readers just what their Jesus thought of them.

I could look it up for you but most of my referrence books are packed away.

The "Strong's Concordance" is a good tool. You can pick them up at any Christain bookstore. I'm thinking that even a public library might carry one.

I AM going to the library tonight, but not to help anyone out but me. Have you heard of Cornel West? I caught an interview on the radio last night and want to check into some of his writings. Amazing guy! He has a broad intelligence and talks about everything from Nietzsche, rap, Christianity and George Bush.

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 05:03 PM
i will give my opinion.
do with it as you wish
ill stay to talk

picture the ENTIRE world, full of different tribes of peoples.

now think of just Israel, a small part of this world.
a world that sounds to me had been at war with Israel.

now to understand the rest, you must believe we are to be sheep.
Jesus could have said we are bears, but we are always sheep.
you can say thats cause wolves attack sheep, and im the wolf.
but then you can say that, and theres no need for me to really stay, unless someone does.

you are a sheep.

how about the rest of this world?

are only his sheep to go out and spread a way of peace?

John 10:15
As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.



now here above can we agree that he is going out after his flock,after his death in Israel?

I do NOT say Jesus came back, and died over and over, for all the many tribes of folks around the world in them days.

but the spirit of peace, the kind of inner peace Jesus talks about is echoed in other cultures.
find your brothers and sisters in that peace.

the other option is endless war.


Jesus did say "brother against brother"
that is true, does that mean Christian against Buddhist, or what you see at this board?

if you think you need to clear the fields for only Christianity, you have the same thoughts as some Muslims.
thats the kind of thinking that leads to 9-11

jesus said "test the spirits"
do so

is it a spirit of Jesus?

does it teach hate, war,
it aint the spirit of Jesus.

what better way to ready the world for Jesus, then he make his spirit easy for his people to see.


John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

ONE VOICE

ONE SHEPHERD

and when he comes for his sheep, does he hope to find them with a sword in their hand, killin a Muslim

Lucky
September 23rd, 2004, 05:06 PM
bW, when can we expect your "No Longer A Christian" thread?

Crow
September 23rd, 2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

the Dalai Lama has in his words done more then you

he knows Jesus, and Jesus knows him

Not according to Jesus.

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

bW, when can we expect your "No Longer A Christian" thread?
NEVER!!!

you do not see Christianity in my words?

Crow
September 23rd, 2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

NEVER!!!

you do not see Christianity in my words?

Nope. Christianity is clear about the exclusivity of Christ, that He is the only way.

I see brotherWillieism, a false religion where Christ is not the only way because brother Willie thinks that God's way is not just.






John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Poly
September 23rd, 2004, 07:40 PM
Wow, bW, I really thought you were just a very confused Christian when you first started all of this foolishness. Now it's clear that you don't even have a grasp on the very foundation of Christianity. :(

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Nope. Christianity is clear about the exclusivity of Christ, that He is the only way.

I see brotherWillieism, a false religion where Christ is not the only way because brother Willie thinks that God's way is not just.

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."


Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Matthew 12:31
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:33
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

Matthew 12:34
"You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

Crow
September 23rd, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Matthew 12:30
"He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters.

Matthew 12:31
"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:33
"Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

Matthew 12:34
"You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.

First of all, let me address what appears to be a major source of your confusion.

The "Me" Jesus refers to in the verses above is Him, not YOU, brother Willie. And Jesus is the Son of Man referred to above, not YOU.

Christ made no such statements regarding those who disagree with YOU, brother Willie. You imply in more than one thread and the shoutbox that anyone who does not agree with YOU is disagreeing with Christ or the Spirit by tossing these verses out and/or calling them vipers. That is a misuse of these scriptures.

And Matt 12:30 affirms that Christ is the only way by affirming that if one is not with Him, one is against Him. It nicely supports John 14:6

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Furthur supporting scriptures:

Acts 4:

8Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: "Rulers and elders of the people! 9If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a cripple and are asked how he was healed, 10then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11He is
" 'the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the capstone' 12Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."


1 John 5:

10Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.


So in light of scripture, I examine the following:


Originally posted by brother Willi

would a JUST God send folks to hell because they never heard of Jesus???

Originally posted by brother Willi

i tell you this, many of other faiths are better Christians then many of you here.

and when they come to Jesus, he will know them as his.

Originally posted by brother Willi

the Dalai Lama has in his words done more then you

he knows Jesus, and Jesus knows him

The Dalai Lama has not accepted Christ as savior. What he has done or not done on this earth of his own works or words does not bring him eternal life. He has not entered into relationship with Christ and accepted His gift of grace, which come only from Jesus Christ because only He made the perfect and acceptable sacrifice that satisfies the debt of our sins.

Only Christ can give us His righteousness, righteousness we cannot earn no matter how much our words have done. The passages above witness that there is not more than one way. So the Dalai Lama and those "better Christian" non-Christians are not saved and will not receive eternal life unless they accept Christ as savior before they die.

brother Willi
September 24th, 2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Crow

First of all, let me address what appears to be a major source of your confusion.

The "Me" Jesus refers to in the verses above is Him, not YOU, brother Willie. And Jesus is the Son of Man referred to above, not YOU.


WE are in TOTAL agreement




And Matt 12:30 affirms that Christ is the only way by affirming that if one is not with Him, one is against Him. It nicely supports John 14:6

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."


and WE are still in TOTAL agreement





So in light of scripture, I examine the following:


The Dalai Lama has not accepted Christ as savior. What he has done or not done on this earth of his own works or words does not bring him eternal life. He has not entered into relationship with Christ and accepted His gift of grace, which come only from Jesus Christ because only He made the perfect and acceptable sacrifice that satisfies the debt of our sins.


the Dalai Lama echoes the Spirit.
and when death comes. he will stand, and know Jesus.
and Jesus will know him.

2 Timothy 2:22
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Matthew 12:7
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

how do Buddhist monks live their lives?

you are correct, you can do ALL the wonderful works you want, but without LOVE and FORGIVENESS in your heart you do not have the Spirit within you.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 7:22
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

Matthew 7:23
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

the Dalai Lama makes NO claims to being God
"I am just a simple Buddhist monk - no more, nor less."






Only Christ can give us His righteousness, righteousness we cannot earn no matter how much our words have done. The passages above witness that there is not more than one way. So the Dalai Lama and those "better Christian" non-Christians are not saved and will not receive eternal life unless they accept Christ as savior before they die.

what of those who die young, say 5 year olds?

they have not said Jesus is Lord, they have not said Jesus is my savior.

will your words condem them also?
~~~

please give me your thoughts on this Jesus said.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Crow
September 24th, 2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi


You imply in more than one thread and the shoutbox that anyone who does not agree with YOU is disagreeing with Christ or the Spirit by tossing these verses out and/or calling them vipers. That is a misuse of these scriptures.


the Dalai Lama echoes the Spirit.
and when death comes. he will stand, and know Jesus.
and Jesus will know him.QUOTE]

Christ made no statements that anyone who "echos the spirit" is saved. The Dalai Lama knows of Christ, and has not accepted Him as savior. He is not going to be saved unless he does so, and the scriptures are clear on this.

[QUOTE]2 Timothy 2:22
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Matthew 12:7
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

how do Buddhist monks live their lives?

It doesn't matter for the purposes of salvation. The scriptures are clear that one must accept Christ as savior to be saved. Nice people are going to hell, bW, because they do not accept Christ as savior. Nice people are not righteous enough. We must have righteousness that equals God's, and only Christ can give us that.


you are correct, you can do ALL the wonderful works you want, but without LOVE and FORGIVENESS in your heart you do not have the Spirit within you.

You can have all of the love and forgiveness in your heart you wish, but unless God is a liar, it does not lead to salvation. He says so.


Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Matthew 7:22
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

Matthew 7:23
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Yup. There will be some who do not get into heaven who believe that they are Christians because they are counting upon their works to bring them righteousness.

There are Christians who have never understood the need of Christ as savior and never accepted him. They go to church, they busily set forth doing good to earn their way into heaven, and never realize that no matter how good they are, they can't do it. There are "social Christians" who attend church and believe that so many hours equal salvation.


the Dalai Lama makes NO claims to being God
"I am just a simple Buddhist monk - no more, nor less."

Too bad. He's a nice guy, but he has no savior.



what of those who die young, say 5 year olds?

they have not said Jesus is Lord, they have not said Jesus is my savior.

will your words condem them also?

I am unable to condemn or save anyone, bW. You should know that. I can point to what the scriptures say.

There is a thread around here where this is discussed--I'll pull it out and link it here--there is too much material to discuss in a single post. The short answer is "No." Here is that thread. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=543789#post543789)
~~~


please give me your thoughts on this Jesus said.
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Christ was speaking to a small number of Jews. And this has been done and continues to be fulfilled. The gentiles were brought into the fold who heard Christ's voice and believed. ONE Shepherd. Not a bunch. Again, this supports that Christ is the only way.

brother Willi
September 24th, 2004, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by Crow

You imply in more than one thread and the shoutbox that anyone who does not agree with YOU is disagreeing with Christ or the Spirit by tossing these verses out and/or calling them vipers. That is a misuse of these scriptures.

when folks disagree, they tend to see that in oneanother




It doesn't matter for the purposes of salvation. The scriptures are clear that one must accept Christ as savior to be saved. Nice people are going to hell, bW, because they do not accept Christ as savior. Nice people are not righteous enough. We must have righteousness that equals God's, and only Christ can give us that.

can one accept Christ as savior, and live by hate?

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5:40
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Matthew 5:41
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Matthew 5:42
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 5:47
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.




You can have all of the love and forgiveness in your heart you wish, but unless God is a liar, it does not lead to salvation.



can one claim salvation, and NOT have love and forgiveness in their heart ?



There are Christians who have never understood the need of Christ as savior and never accepted him. They go to church, they busily set forth doing good to earn their way into heaven, and never realize that no matter how good they are, they can't do it. There are "social Christians" who attend church and believe that so many hours equal salvation.

as evil as we have ALL been in our past, (myself included)

we ALL need Christ as savior



There is a thread around here where this is discussed--I'll pull it out and link it here--there is too much material to discuss in a single post. The short answer is "No." Here is that thread. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=543789#post543789)
~~~


5 or 50?

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 2:13
for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

Romans 2:15
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,





Christ was speaking to a small number of Jews. And this has been done and continues to be fulfilled. The gentiles were brought into the fold who heard Christ's voice and believed. ONE Shepherd. Not a bunch. Again, this supports that Christ is the only way.

heard Christ's voice i agree.

maybe we can talk about what that voice teaches
2 Timothy 2:22
Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

Matthew 12:7
"But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.


John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

Crow
September 24th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Love is not feeling good and standing by and speaking platitudes while another fails, or cheering him on down the path to ruin. Love is true, not a soothing lie or silence when watching another pursue self-destruction. One of the most hateful things we can do is allow our brother to fall by aiding him in error when he is weak, and reassuring him that all is right when he is wrong. Love does not cower from offending another if it saves them.

Love does not buy a junkie a fix. Love does not buy an alcoholic a beer. Love does not help a woman pay for an abortion. Love does not allow one's children to grow up without limits or correction. Love warns people of pitfalls. Love puts the well-being of another above one's need for acceptance and gratitude.

So is it loving to tell people that those who do not accept Christ have the "spirit of Christ" and will be saved because of their good words or peacefulness? Is it kind to deceive them into belief that they have no need for Christ because they are "good people" and possible be the stumbling block that sends a fellow human being to hell because you obscure the need we have for Christ to obtain salvation?

No. That is a sissy false love where one smiles and grins and does not attempt to intervene when someone is on the path to hell because appearing or feeling "loving" is more pleasant than showing true love and trying to steer one's fellow man from damnation.

We are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is. Can you pull that off, bW? No. The only perfection we can possess is the righteousness of Christ. If you let people believe that the Dalai Lama, Buddah, or whoever achieves righteousness without Him, then you mislead others, possibly to their eternal woe. That is not love, no matter how loving you feel you are being when you do it.

No human, save Christ, has ever kept the Law, because God's standard is perfection. The hearers of the Law who do not accept Christ as savior are just as damned as the doers who do not accept Christ, because all fail to keep the Law. When Christ was talking about wanting to murder someone is the same as killing someone, He was showing just how stringent God's standard for righteousness is. How we will never meet the requirements of the Law, no matter how hard whe try. Once we admit that it is impossible for us to keep the Law, then we are ready to understand how desperately we need Christ as savior. Paul explains this, telling us that the Law was a tutor, and we who have grace are dead to the Law.

The Pharasees were the biggest zealots for the Law in Israel, and Christ had nothing much good to say about them, and in fact called them sons of Hell. Yet Christ showed them love. Not the coward's love, but real love--He spoke the truth to them. He showed them their error, shamed their wickedness, and this gave them the opportunity to see their error and accept the truth.

Christ is the author of the Bible, bW, so you can't just pick out the red letters to discern what the Shepherd's voice teaches. John tells us that Christ has existed from the begining, and through Him all was made. No man has seen the Father--Christ told us that when He lived in human flesh. No man can know the Father except through the Son. It was Christ who walked with Adam and Eve. Christ is THE WORD. He gave us the scriptures by working through human beings.

It was Christ who told Noah to build the ark and leave the evil people behind to perish. Christ who rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom, and killed wicked people.

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Christ is the light which shone in the darkness but the darkness did not understand. The Jews hoped and waited for the Messiah when in reality the Messiah had guided all who would follow since He made mankind.

Christ gave every command and instruction in the OT as well as the new. No man can know the Father except through the Son, Remember when you said that the red letters in the Bible were more important to Christians? Christ authored those letters, black and red alike, through people He inspired. He worked through men who recorded the OT and the NT and He works through us if we allow Him to live through us.

Christ desired all to come to His fold. But He has already told us that many will not. Don't add to that number by deceiving others. Being a good person does not get you saved. The Dalai Lama is not going to heaven unless he accepts Christ, despite your opinion that he is a better Christian than many Christians.

Those "bloodthirsty OT Christians" you rail about know that Christ was not a new improved version of God, but that He has been with us since the begining, and that He did not confine His wisdom and teaching to a period of 3 years. If you wish to confine Christ to red letters, you toss out much of what He taught. Christ did not address many issues in his 3 year mission. Many of these had been addressed previously. And some issues He addressed were specific to that period. One needs the whole Bible to understand those red letters fully.

brother Willi
September 26th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Love is not feeling good and standing by and speaking platitudes while another fails, or cheering him on down the path to ruin. Love is true, not a soothing lie or silence when watching another pursue self-destruction. One of the most hateful things we can do is allow our brother to fall by aiding him in error when he is weak, and reassuring him that all is right when he is wrong. Love does not cower from offending another if it saves them.

AMEN SISTER



Love does not buy a junkie a fix. Love does not buy an alcoholic a beer. Love does not help a woman pay for an abortion. Love does not allow one's children to grow up without limits or correction. Love warns people of pitfalls. Love puts the well-being of another above one's need for acceptance and gratitude.


AMEN SISTER



So is it loving to tell people that those who do not accept Christ have the "spirit of Christ" and will be saved because of their good words or peacefulness? Is it kind to deceive them into belief that they have no need for Christ because they are "good people" and possible be the stumbling block that sends a fellow human being to hell because you obscure the need we have for Christ to obtain salvation?

AMEN SISTER
i speak of a Spirit of love, that lets us see our brothers and sisters as they echo the Word Jesus gave us.



No. That is a sissy false love where one smiles and grins and does not attempt to intervene when someone is on the path to hell because appearing or feeling "loving" is more pleasant than showing true love and trying to steer one's fellow man from damnation.


AMEN SISTER
when folks generate their own fears, that this happens.

[/QUOTE]
We are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is. Can you pull that off, bW? No. [/QUOTE]

AHMEN SISTER
i fall as many times as any here.
Luke 15:18
'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;

Luke 15:21
"And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

Romans 2:12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,




The only perfection we can possess is the righteousness of Christ. If you let people believe that the Dalai Lama, Buddah, or whoever achieves righteousness without Him, then you mislead others, possibly to their eternal woe. That is not love, no matter how loving you feel you are being when you do it.

Buddha paved the way for the word of Jesus

a Buddhist should be told of Jesus, if it is in him, he should read those RED letters.
they will see that "nirvana" is the letting go of the flesh.
a TRUE Buddhist, will see it.
they may or may not accept Jesus.
if they dont.and still live by the Buddhas law.
they have done this

Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

they are not damned, untill they see Jesus!



No human, save Christ, has ever kept the Law, because God's standard is perfection. The hearers of the Law who do not accept Christ as savior are just as damned as the doers who do not accept Christ, because all fail to keep the Law. When Christ was talking about wanting to murder someone is the same as killing someone, He was showing just how stringent God's standard for righteousness is. How we will never meet the requirements of the Law, no matter how hard whe try. Once we admit that it is impossible for us to keep the Law, then we are ready to understand how desperately we need Christ as savior. Paul explains this, telling us that the Law was a tutor, and we who have grace are dead to the Law.
AHMEN SISTER

Matthew 5:27
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OUCH
QUILTY AS CHARGED

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Matthew 9:13
"But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus *said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."




The Pharasees were the biggest zealots for the Law in Israel, and Christ had nothing much good to say about them, and in fact called them sons of Hell. Yet Christ showed them love. Not the coward's love, but real love--He spoke the truth to them. He showed them their error, shamed their wickedness, and this gave them the opportunity to see their error and accept the truth.

AHMEN SISTER

Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

and when we see the Holy Spirit shinning in our brother or sister, SEE IT.




Christ is the author of the Bible, bW, so you can't just pick out the red letters to discern what the Shepherd's voice teaches. John tells us that Christ has existed from the begining, and through Him all was made. No man has seen the Father--Christ told us that when He lived in human flesh. No man can know the Father except through the Son. It was Christ who walked with Adam and Eve. Christ is THE WORD. He gave us the scriptures by working through human beings.

It was Christ who told Noah to build the ark and leave the evil people behind to perish. Christ who rained fire and brimstone upon Sodom, and killed wicked people.
AHMEN SISTER

is it wise to start with the RED LETTERS first?
then when we understand them , read the rest?




John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Christ is the light which shone in the darkness but the darkness did not understand. The Jews hoped and waited for the Messiah when in reality the Messiah had guided all who would follow since He made mankind.
AHMEN SISTER

NOBODY need ever say they are not a Christian, if they understand these words




Christ gave every command and instruction in the OT as well as the new. No man can know the Father except through the Son, Remember when you said that the red letters in the Bible were more important to Christians? Christ authored those letters, black and red alike, through people He inspired. He worked through men who recorded the OT and the NT and He works through us if we allow Him to live through us.

AHMEN SISTER




Christ desired all to come to His fold. But He has already told us that many will not. Don't add to that number by deceiving others. Being a good person does not get you saved. The Dalai Lama is not going to heaven unless he accepts Christ, despite your opinion that he is a better Christian than many Christians.

AHMEN SISTER

from everything i understand.
it is NOT MINE to judge, but i do have the Word.
it tells me how to live my life.

from everything i have heard the Dalai Lama, and Buddha said.
i think they met Jesus after they died, and they knew each other.
they may, or may not be quilty of speaking out "against the Son of Man"
but I believe, they are NOT guilty of speaking out against THE Holy Spirit.


Matthew 12:32
"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.




Those "bloodthirsty OT Christians" you rail about know that Christ was not a new improved version of God, but that He has been with us since the begining, and that He did not confine His wisdom and teaching to a period of 3 years. If you wish to confine Christ to red letters, you toss out much of what He taught. Christ did not address many issues in his 3 year mission. Many of these had been addressed previously. And some issues He addressed were specific to that period. One needs the whole Bible to understand those red letters fully.

AHMEN SISTER

but do we not also need the RED LETTERS , to understand the rest?

Crow
September 26th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi
Buddha paved the way for the word of Jesus

Nope.


Matthew 28:19
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit

Why bother if Buddha and all those others already know Him? They don't need a doctor if they aren't sick.


but do we not also need the RED LETTERS , to understand the rest?

They are all part of a whole. Christ spoke in His human body in some, and through others in some, but He authored all of them. The red ones are no better than the black.

brother Willi
September 26th, 2004, 09:17 PM
FIRST, let me say thank you Crow, and others, for your input.

take a bow Crow, you debated well.

as i took the first shot, please take the last Crow.
i think its about been covered.

unless some one thinks not

we all must think.



Originally posted by Crow
Why bother if Buddha and all those others already know Him? They don't need a doctor if they aren't sick.


does this mean that the laborers hired last get the same pay?

does that mean you can accept Jesus on your death bed?

does it say the laborers are in the flesh?


Matt 20:1-16 "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ "They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ "He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ "When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ "But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

Crow
September 26th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi


does this mean that the laborers hired last get the same pay?

does that mean you can accept Jesus on your death bed?

does it say the laborers are in the flesh?

Whosoever believeth in me. God didn't state that it must be for X amount of time.



Matt 20:1-16 "For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ "They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ "He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ "When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ "But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen."

It doesn't matter how long one is a Christian in this life--if you're saved a minute, you have eternal life, just as if you're saved for 80 years.

But y'all will note that the master of the household didn't pay any folks who never set foot in his field.

Christ is the one way.