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brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 09:33 PM
why own a gun?

if its for fun, fine target shootin is fun

if its for huntin, fine we all need to eat

if its for self defense, prove to me that a Christian needs one for that

BillyBob
September 19th, 2004, 09:34 PM
Instead, I'll direct you to the Constitution.

temple2006
September 19th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Billy Bob.....Depends upon which self you are defending. (Constitutions have been known to be wrong?)

BillyBob
September 19th, 2004, 09:38 PM
The only Constitution I am concerned with is the US Constitution. Which Constitution were you referring to?

temple2006
September 19th, 2004, 09:41 PM
BB.....same one.

BillyBob
September 19th, 2004, 09:44 PM
So, you are saying that the US Constitution is wrong?

Crow
September 19th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Why I own a gun. (actually many guns) Hunting, target shooting, home defense, plinking, bragging to my gun buddies about how many I own, and in case BillyBob ever has a question about a gun, I can tell him because I have the same one.

BillyBob
September 19th, 2004, 10:05 PM
:chuckle:

BillyBob
September 19th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Still laughing! :chuckle:

firechyld
September 19th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Plinking?

Crow
September 19th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by firechyld

Plinking?

That's something that evidently isn't the same in Aussie. "Plinking" is a very informal type of target shooting. It is done on non-regulation targets, usually the tin can, and the sound the bullet makes when it hits is a "plink," hence the name "plinking."

Lucky
September 19th, 2004, 10:26 PM
BillyBob has to ask a girl how to use a gun. :chuckle:

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 10:35 PM
ever shoot butterflys?

i did, not proud of it

POOF

Lucky
September 19th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

ever shoot butterflys?
I tried once, but I missed and hit a cat. :devil:

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

I tried once, but I missed and hit a cat. :devil:
did you eat it?

temple2006
September 20th, 2004, 02:24 AM
BB...Not necessarily, but you know how many ways it can be interpreted. It does not command you to own a gun, does it?

ebenz47037
September 20th, 2004, 03:05 AM
Well, Bro Willi, I can speak for no one but myself. I bought my gun to protect myself and my daughter. We had lived in a fairly large city before my husband passed away and I wasn't sure that we'd be all right. It took me a while to get used to it being in the house. But, soon, it became more of a tool for recreation. I do what Crow calls "plinking." It relaxes me by getting my mind off of everyday life. I've gotten quite good at hitting my target. I'm thinking of buying a long bow and targets for it. I used to love archery. And, of course, I'm thinking about getting another gun. :)

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 05:52 AM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Well, Bro Willi, I can speak for no one but myself. I bought my gun to protect myself and my daughter. We had lived in a fairly large city before my husband passed away and I wasn't sure that we'd be all right. It took me a while to get used to it being in the house. But, soon, it became more of a tool for recreation. I do what Crow calls "plinking." It relaxes me by getting my mind off of everyday life. I've gotten quite good at hitting my target. I'm thinking of buying a long bow and targets for it. I used to love archery. And, of course, I'm thinking about getting another gun. :)
i understand that part about why you bought them Nori.
i did the same
we lived in a trailer park
i worked nights, so i bought Daisy (my wife) a gun for protection.

did i trust in God when i did this?

we also got a black lab, named him Sarge, one of the smartest dogs we ever had.
when he was a pup, he loved to chew on stuff
sometimes id come home, and Daisy would be sittin on the kitchen table, Sarge loved to bite at her ankles:chuckle:

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by temple 2000

BB...Not necessarily, but you know how many ways it can be interpreted. It does not command you to own a gun, does it?

It [2nd Ammendment] allows me to own a gun without the worry of the government taking it away from me.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

It [2nd Ammendment] allows me to own a gun without the worry of the government taking it away from me.
thats true Billy
but the point temple 2000 i think makes is, it doesnt say you MUST own a gun

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 06:29 AM
I never said otherwise.

aikido7
September 20th, 2004, 06:44 AM
A .410 shotgun makes a great assualt weapon for pheasants and a .22 rifle is great for killing tin cans and empty pop bottles.

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 06:47 AM
And a .45 is great for killing a man. [or a really angry woman]

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 08:09 AM
And a .454 Colt New Service, AKA Crow's dresser drawer gun #1, is an excellent weapon for home/personal protection. Unless you live in an area where pheasants, tin cans, and bottles are known to commit assault.

Poly
September 20th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i understand that part about why you bought them Nori.
i did the same
we lived in a trailer park
i worked nights, so i bought Daisy (my wife) a gun for protection.

did i trust in God when i did this?


Do you lock your doors when you go to bed at night? Do you encourage your wife to do so if you are gone at night or at any time?

Gerald
September 20th, 2004, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Crow
...bragging to my gun buddies about how many I own...The truly effective gun owner doesn't need to brag...:think:

cattyfan
September 20th, 2004, 08:54 AM
Do you lock your doors when you go to bed at night? Do you encourage your wife to do so if you are gone at night or at any time?

there are plenty of things people do or use every day for safety: child-proof caps, seat belts, goggles when welding, closed doors while driving a car, shoes when outside in below zero weather, immunizations against deadly diseases or medications to treat illnesses...

Does this mean all the people who do these things don't trust in God???

Conversely, if we don't do these things and end up hurt or dead, then is God untrustworthy?

What an odd premise.

ebenz47037
September 20th, 2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i understand that part about why you bought them Nori.
i did the same
we lived in a trailer park
i worked nights, so i bought Daisy (my wife) a gun for protection.

did i trust in God when i did this?

we also got a black lab, named him Sarge, one of the smartest dogs we ever had.
when he was a pup, he loved to chew on stuff
sometimes id come home, and Daisy would be sittin on the kitchen table, Sarge loved to bite at her ankles:chuckle:

Well, now, having a gun is like belonging to the Lion's club or the moose lodge or something. A bunch of friends go shooting together. I'm probably the only sober person there. But, I still have fun. :chuckle:

You already know that I have dogs. I'd hate to have to live without them now.

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Gerald

The truly effective gun owner doesn't need to brag...:think:

Not for defense purposes, of course not.

But for status points in the brotherhood of gun nuts, you MUST brag. Otherwise, how will people know that their gun collections stink compared to yours? :chuckle:

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:17 AM
interesting

when i ask "did i trust in God when i did this?"

you answer with


there are plenty of things people do or use every day for safety: child-proof caps, seat belts, goggles when welding, closed doors while driving a car, shoes when outside in below zero weather, immunizations against deadly diseases or medications to treat illnesses...



Do you lock your doors when you go to bed at night? Do you encourage your wife to do so if you are gone at night or at any time?
while it is true , these are also looked at as safety issues.

do any of these bring harm because we do them?

cattyfan
September 20th, 2004, 09:21 AM
the question appears to be, "Is protecting yourself a demonstration of a lack of faith in God?" That is to what we were responding. How is protecting ourselves from harm against GOd?

Gerald
September 20th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Crow
But for status points in the brotherhood of gun nuts, you MUST brag. Otherwise, how will people know that their gun collections stink compared to yours? :chuckle: Well, I don't have that sort of ego problem... ;)

Zakath
September 20th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by Gerald

Well, I don't have that sort of ego problem... ;) I don't have a gun collection worth bragging about. :ha:

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Gerald

The truly effective gun owner doesn't need to brag...:think: ...which is why everyone on TOL knows that you are full of hot air.

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

do any of these bring harm because we do them? Owning a gun brings harm?

Or are you referring to the harm done to the criminal who breaks into a gun-owner's home?

erinmarie
September 20th, 2004, 11:30 AM
Turbo, just playing the Devil's Advocate here for a minute, (it also doesn't hurt that I know you well). Do you think you will purchase a gun when you have children? And also, do you feel you were inadaquately protected at your home growing up? In other words, do you think it was an error on the part of your parents that they never kept a gun in the house?
Just curious! ;)

Gerald
September 20th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Turbo
...which is why everyone on TOL knows that you are full of hot air. I don't recall ever having made a claim to the contrary... :chuckle:

If someone takes my more bellicose posts seriously, that is not my problem... :chuckle:

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Owning a gun brings harm?

Or are you referring to the harm done to the criminal who breaks into a gun-owner's home?

If you drop one on your toe, it really, really hurts.

As for the criminal, I feel no obligation to make provisions to provide for the on the job saftey needs of felons and assailants.

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by erinmarie

Turbo, just playing the Devil's Advocate here for a minute, (it also doesn't hurt that I know you well). Do you think you will purchase a gun when you have children? And also, do you feel you were inadaquately protected at your home growing up? In other words, do you think it was an error on the part of your parents that they never kept a gun in the house?
Just curious! ;)

I grew up in a house full of weapons. My father shot expert numerous times in the service, and taught me to shoot at an early age.

Jabez
September 20th, 2004, 05:47 PM
I think the point BW is tring to make is,what would Jesus do if in that situation?Would he pull out a gun and shoot a robber?

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

I think the point BW is tring to make is,what would Jesus do if in that situation?Would he pull out a gun and shoot a robber?
I've stated my reasons for owning a gun.

Jesus wouldn't have to. Let's face it, He had abilities I don't possess. Jesus didn't have guns avaliable in 33ish AD, but we know that at least one of his disciples, Peter, had a sword with him while accompanying Christ, because Christ stayed him when he attempted to use it to protect Him, as Christ had already chosen to be sacrificed.

And frankly, Jabez, it is a waste of my time to engage in discourse with BW. BW changes his story frequently, and replies this way (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=593682#post593682) when his many conflicting versions are pointed out. His standard reply when one of his assertations is refuted is "your eyes are full of blood." I haven't seen any indication whatsoever that he is capable of anything but untruthfulness. Y'all discuss things with him if you wish.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 07:16 PM
howbout it Turbo, what the hell was wrong with your parents?

you know what was wrong?
NOTHING
the problem is in your thinking


most of you here make me sick
poly,catty find shame that you must make your husbands live by the sword

i vomit your words out as i read them, crow also and billy
you all make me sick
you bloodthirsty christians.
you attack the idea of "what whould Jesus do" without mercy, you only see Jesus the roman killer
you are my enemy, because you are the enemy of the Word of Jesus.

you prove here that his Word is not welcome unless you can twist it to mean "i can kill anyone who breaks into my home"


I DONT CARE IF YOU DONT LIKE ME
hate me, hate is what you do best.

i love you, il help you if i can
YEP, even if you steal from me.

"WHATSO EVER YOU DO TO THE LEAST OF MY BROTHERS, THAT YOU DO UNTO ME.

REPENT AND CHANGE

SEE YOURSELF IN THE MOST EVIL OF YOUR BROTHERS.

AS I SEE MYSELF IN YOUR EVIL


now laugh away vipers
laugh away

One Eyed Jack
September 20th, 2004, 07:29 PM
I got my first gun when I was six years old. It's a bit scratched up, but I've still got it. I'm going to let my nephew sand it and restain it, and then I'm going to let him have it.

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 07:33 PM
I shot my first gun when I was 4 or 5 years old. My dad let me shoot his .22. I had it refinished a few years back, and it's still a tack shooter.

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

I think the point BW is tring to make is,what would Jesus do if in that situation?Would he pull out a gun and shoot a robber?

Jesus does not condemn those who kill in self-defense.
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. Exodus 22:2-3a

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus does not condemn those who kill in self-defense.
If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. Exodus 22:2-3a
yes Turbo, live by the sword
live with the blood on your hands.
Jesus teaches a better way

your parent might understand

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 07:39 PM
bro Willi...

Who, in your opinion, can own a gun for defensive purposes?

Can Christians become police officers? Can they serve in the military?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

bro Willi...

Who, in your opinion, can own a gun for defensive purposes?

Can Christians become police officers? Can they serve in the military?
that would be great to talk about.
my dad was in WW2 he lived in Austria, when hitler took over, my dad was given 2 choices, die now, or help.
he did not believe in war then,he kept his head down
did his best not to kill anyone

a cop,if the law is just, sure
shoot not to kill

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 07:47 PM
my dad never allowed a gun in the house

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

that would be great to talk about.
my dad was in WW2 he lived in Austria, when hitler took over, my dad was given 2 choices, die now, or help.
he did not believe in war then,he kept his head down
did his best not to kill anyone

a cop,if the law is just, sure
shoot not to kill

So a police officer is allowed to use a gun to protect the citizens of a community?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

So a police officer is allowed to use a gun to protect the citizens of a community?
WWJD?

thats the question.

whats your thoughts?

some countries ive heard dont let cops carry guns.
i think Japan, i might be wrong on that.
do you know if thats true?

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 08:02 PM
I was in and out of the house doing yardwork most of the day, and erin and I ended up talking about this over AIM. But I'll recap it here for everyone else.
Originally posted by erinmarie

Turbo, just playing the Devil's Advocate here for a minute, (it also doesn't hurt that I know you well). Do you think you will purchase a gun when you have children? I already own a gun, but I don't really have it set up to use for defense right now. I would consider getting a pistol some day. It depends.


And also, do you feel you were inadaquately protected at your home growing up?No.*


In other words, do you think it was an error on the part of your parents that they never kept a gun in the house?No.

______________________

The current trend of hiding/locking up the guns in an effort to prevent a kid from ever gaining acces to a gun and making guns taboo, and I don't think that's the best approach. I think the taboo will not only make messing with a gun more alluring, but it will also assure that they won't know how to handle one should they come across one (or seek one out).

I plan to teach my future kids how to shoot and how to safely and responsibly handle firearms. The same goes for other potentialy dangerous tools, such as my table saw and circular saw, and I intend to take a similar approach with them as well.


*edit: I misread one of the questions.

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

WWJD?

thats the question.

whats your thoughts?

Jesus would tell the govermental authorities to use a sword to bring fear upon those who consider practicing evil.

So, once again, is a police officer allowed to use a gun to protect the citizens of a community?

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:03 PM
Good for you, Turbo! :up:

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

Jesus would tell the govermental authorities to use a sword to bring fear upon those who consider practicing evil.


interesting, can you show me that?

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

interesting, can you show me that?

Romans 13:3-4

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Turbo
The current trend of hiding/locking up the guns in an effort to prevent a kid from ever gaining acces to a gun and making guns taboo, and I don't think that's the best approach. I think the taboo will not only make messing with a gun more alluring, but it will also assure that they won't know how to handle one should they come across one (or seek one out).

I plan to teach my future kids how to shoot and how to safely and responsibly handle firearms. The same goes for other potentialy dangerous tools, such as my table saw and circular saw, and I intend to take a similar approach with them as well.

My dad taught me to shoot when I was very young. The guns weren't locked up in our house, and when a kid was deemed old enough and showed the interest, they learned how to shoot. There were no gun accidents in our household because we grew up knowing not to mess with them without permission. Plus they weren't quite forbidden fruit because my dad took us out and let us shoot pretty much as often as we wished.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

I was in and out of the house doing yardwork most of the day, and erin and I ended up talking about this over AIM. But I'll recap it here for everyone else.I already own a gun, but I don't really have it set up to use for defense right now. I would consider getting a pistol some day. It depends.

why?



Yes. why, are you dead?who died?



No.
good for you, so i am not evil, or a bad parent because i have no guns?

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Crow

My dad taught me to shoot when I was very young. The guns weren't locked up in our house, and when a kid was deemed old enough and showed the interest, they learned how to shoot. There were no gun accidents in our household because we grew up knowing not to mess with them without permission. Plus they weren't quite forbidden fruit because my dad took us out and let us shoot pretty much as often as we wished.

Me too. I was so young the first time I shot a gun, I don't even remember the experience. My Father and I were always shootin', it was our weekend thing to do together. I had 4 or 5 guns by the time I was 12 years old and my High School Graduation present was a Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum.

So far, I haven't killed anyone. :noid:

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Me too. I was so young the first time I shot a gun, I don't even remember the experience. My Father and I were always shootin', it was our weekend thing to do together. I had 4 or 5 guns by the time I was 12 years old and my High School Graduation present was a Smith and Wesson .357 Magnum.

So far, I haven't killed anyone. :noid:

I can remember shooting, but I can't remember the first time I shot. He got the .22 when I was four, so I suspect it was right around then.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

Romans 13:3-4

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil."
umm, hitler, saddam etc...

remember my dad was in WW2 , on the wrong side.

had he been kill happy, it might have been your dads he killed

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

umm, hitler, saddam etc...

remember my dad was in WW2 , on the wrong side.

had he been kill happy, it might have been your dads he killed

I'm sorry, bro Willi, but what exactly is it in that verse in Romans that you object about?

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:17 PM
That's the exact age I was thinking. We lived out in the country and could walk to go plinking.

Crow
September 20th, 2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

That's the exact age I was thinking. We lived out in the country and could walk to go plinking.

We lived in Texas in the suburbs, but folks (at that time) looked the other way if you brought your kids to the AFB rifle range and taught them to shoot.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

I'm sorry, bro Willi, but what exactly is it in that verse in Romans that you object about?

are all goverments minister of God ?

if i lived at the time of Jesus, am i to kill Christians as Rome wanted?

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

are all goverments minister of God ?

if i lived at the time of Jesus, am i to kill Christians as Rome wanted?

No, all governments are not ministers of God. Do you know the difference between good and evil? Are there governments that practice evil? Are you sure you understand the verse?

Are you an anarchist?

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Crow

We lived in Texas in the suburbs, but folks (at that time) looked the other way if you brought your kids to the AFB rifle range and taught them to shoot.

Ahhhh...the 'Good ole Days'. :cloud9:

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

No, all governments are not ministers of God. Do you know the difference between good and evil? Are there governments that practice evil? Are you sure you understand the verse?

Are you an anarchist?
see how nice it is to talk.



"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;"

i see the war we are in as wrong, we invaded 2 other countries.
if i go to war, the govermnent i fight against is evil, but what of the innocent folks there.
dont our bombs kill them?
today war is different from the days of Jesus
you saw your enemy, face to face

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

WWJD?

thats the question.

whats your thoughts? Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22:36

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22:36

let me post this for now, and lets compare and talk about it

Matthew 26:51
And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear.

Matthew 26:52
Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SOTK
September 20th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

why own a gun?

if its for fun, fine target shootin is fun

if its for huntin, fine we all need to eat

if its for self defense, prove to me that a Christian needs one for that

I like owning a gun for all three!!!!! :bannana:

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:44 PM
:bannana:

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

I like owning a gun for all three!!!!! :bannana:
you can do that

WWJD?

BillyBob
September 20th, 2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you can do that

WWJD?

Shoot you.

SOTK
September 20th, 2004, 08:49 PM
:darwinsm:

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Luke 22:35
And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing."

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

let me post this for now, and lets compare and talk about it

Matthew 26:51
And behold, one of those who were with Jesus reached and drew out his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his ear.

Matthew 26:52
Then Jesus *said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jesus was ready to lay down His life as a sacrifice for mankind's sin. It was the preparation day for the Passover, when the lamb was to be slain. The main reason He came to earth was to die for us, and it was His time.

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.

As for "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword," this is not a call for pacifism you hope it is. On the contrary, it is a call for the death penalty for murderers. Note the similarity between what Jesus said in Matthew 26:52 and Revelation 13:10:

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

SOTK
September 20th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you can do that

WWJD?

bw, you asking that question for everything is getting old. I know that BillyBob, Crow, myself, and others have answered your questions. You just don't like the answers, or more importantly probably, can't hear the answers.

Again, Jesus knows that there is a war going on. He warned us of it. Evil is real and it exists here on Earth until He comes back. We have the right to defend ourselves and our families until Jesus comes and takes away all evil. Do I believe Jesus likes bloodshed necessarily? No, he most certainly doesn't. He wishes all would come to Him and lay evil aside, but that's not how it is. We all have been given a choice, and in this day in age, almost everyone knows what the Truth is. Ignorance is not an excuse. If someone chooses to embrace evil and comes after me or mine, I'm blowing them away! I won't like it, but I will do it! I won't feel that I will be judged by God for doing it either. He knows what's going on.

SOTK

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus was ready to lay down His life as a sacrifice for mankind's sin. It was the preparation day for the Passover, when the lamb was to be slain. The main reason He came to earth was to die for us, and it was His time.

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.

As for "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword," this is not a call for pacifism you hope it is. On the contrary, it is a call for the death penalty for murderers. Note the similarity between what Jesus said in Matthew 26:52 and Revelation 13:10:

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

how can i kill the killer, without becomeing the killer i kill?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus was ready to lay down His life as a sacrifice for mankind's sin. It was the preparation day for the Passover, when the lamb was to be slain. The main reason He came to earth was to die for us, and it was His time.

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.

As for "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword," this is not a call for pacifism you hope it is. On the contrary, it is a call for the death penalty for murderers. Note the similarity between what Jesus said in Matthew 26:52 and Revelation 13:10:

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

so, if i use a sword to kill, will i be killed by the sword?

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Not all killing is murder. Why do you suppose God commanded that murderers be executed? Do you think that it is sinful for a government to follow God's commandment to punish criminals? Or would you prefer that governments profane God by keeping people alive who should not live?

Poly
September 20th, 2004, 09:08 PM
bW, what is your response to this part of Turbo's post?


Originally posted by Turbo

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Not all killing is murder.
lets talk about that.

when is killing not murder?

am i to resist evil with a gun, or the Word?

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 09:10 PM
An ancestor of mine: Emperor Valerius Liscenious, whose vicious hate for Christianity caused the murder of thousands of martyrs; is the namesake I carry. I do believe in curses being passed to the third and fourth generation of them that hate God; and have broken the curse, but only by The Blood of The Lamb. Not that Emperor Valerius (or his legacy) mean anything to me, other than, "Wow, that's cool," from most who learn of it. I don't believe that men are ever perfect, in this life, nor that they should be worshipped; especially leaders, who everyone seems to feel that it is their duty to find some 'dirt' on. Probably partly due to the way that the commoners used to go on about their rulers being great, or ascribing magical powers to them. We are under the curse that we build for ourselves, when we disobey The Lord, Who told us to pray for leaders, everywhere, so that all men might serve Him in peace. He walked the walk.

Yes, police (and even the military) are ministers of God, on our behalf. God sets up one ruler, takes him down and puts up another. He still runs the whole show, but allows us to stew in pots that we have filled. Thank God that He has given us His Grace, through Jesus, the only way out of this sinking cesspool called earth. That's Who we need to talk about. He lives in our actions. He walks (and talks) in our flesh.

I own a gun, and wouldn't hesitate to use it, were someone to enter my house unwanted, or otherwise threaten my family. I believe that Jesus said that if we didn't own a gun, that we should sell our coat, and buy one. I agree. If more people owned guns and the criminals knew that, there'd be a lot less crime. Many European countries enjoy far less crime than we do, partly because of the gun ownership (required by law) and partly because national service in the military is mandatory for all able-bodied citizens. I guess that when the only 'dissident' population is infirm, the meetings go kinda' slow. They learn how to walk, from those who've been there, and then came back to help them.

My dad fought in WWII. He got his left kneecap torn off by a German artillery shell, near the end of the war. There were Jews, Christians, Catholics, agnostics, Native Americans and who knows, maybe even Satanists and Mormons out there, fighting against a common enemy: tyranny. I thank God for him, and pray daily for his salvation. He's 86 years old, and we're going to look at a retirement home, next week. He can't walk so well anymore. He was a USPS Letter Carrier for 31 years, even though he only had one kneecap. When I was young, I remember how much he was silent, most of the time. I had a rough go of it trying to catch up to him when I followed along, now and then, on his mail route. He walked the walk.

We came to this country to seek our fortunes in 'new territory,' America. We decided that taxation without representation was ridiculous. Now we have more taxes and even less representation. Our elected officials think that the 'special interest' groups speak for all Americans. I think that they just talk, talk, talk; but don't walk the walk. Too many fools walking around doing all the talking. It is the meek, the downtrodden few, who are quiet, most of the time, that you have to watch out for. One day they get their belly-full of someone or something and then, LOOKOUT; they're un-stoppable. My dad is that way. Well maybe not so much any more, but he talks about the walk that he had. I honor my dad. He is my hero. Always will be.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Poly

bW, what is your response to this part of Turbo's post?

OK

Turbo said "But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords. "

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

am i to resist evil with a gun, or the Word? Resist evil within your own heart, devising mischief against God-fearing TOL'ers, who only tease you because you're easy prey. Read your Bible, and pray. Those things are important. The rest will fall into place, if you'll trust God.

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?Of course, since they weren't even allowed to carry a purse (money) or scrip (notepad). He had instructed them so.

Jabez
September 20th, 2004, 09:14 PM
To me it is clear that the Sword or guns these are mans way,not Gods.Though swords and guns are useful.We are to live beyond men reaching for spirtual ground.In the name of God anything is possable.If a robber comes into my home and i catch him and rebuke him in the name of Jesus i command him to leave,he will leave unharmed.Do you have enough faith to do it?I always dont,for iam not perfect,iam less than perfect,iam nothing!

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

An ancestor of mine: Emperor Valerius Liscenious, whose vicious hate for Christianity caused the murder of thousands of martyrs; is the namesake I carry. I do believe in curses being passed to the third and fourth generation of them that hate God; and have broken the curse, but only by The Blood of The Lamb. Not that Emperor Valerius (or his legacy) mean anything to me, other than, "Wow, that's cool," from most who learn of it. I don't believe that men are ever perfect, in this life, nor that they should be worshipped; especially leaders, who everyone seems to feel that it is their duty to find some 'dirt' on. Probably partly due to the way that the commoners used to go on about their rulers being great, or ascribing magical powers to them. We are under the curse that we build for ourselves, when we disobey The Lord, Who told us to pray for leaders, everywhere, so that all men might serve Him in peace. He walked the walk.

Yes, police (and even the military) are ministers of God, on our behalf. God sets up one ruler, takes him down and puts up another. He still runs the whole show, but allows us to stew in pots that we have filled. Thank God that He has given us His Grace, through Jesus, the only way out of this sinking cesspool called earth. That's Who we need to talk about. He lives in our actions. He walks (and talks) in our flesh.

I own a gun, and wouldn't hesitate to use it, were someone to enter my house unwanted, or otherwise threaten my family. I believe that Jesus said that if we didn't own a gun, that we should sell our coat, and buy one. I agree. If more people owned guns and the criminals knew that, there'd be a lot less crime. Many European countries enjoy far less crime than we do, partly because of the gun ownership (required by law) and partly because national service in the military is mandatory for all able-bodied citizens. I guess that when the only 'dissident' population is infirm, the meetings go kinda' slow. They learn how to walk, from those who've been there, and then came back to help them.

My dad fought in WWII. He got his left kneecap torn off by a German artillery shell, near the end of the war. There were Jews, Christians, Catholics, agnostics, Native Americans and who knows, maybe even Satanists and Mormons out there, fighting against a common enemy: tyranny. I thank God for him, and pray daily for his salvation. He's 86 years old, and we're going to look at a retirement home, next week. He can't walk so well anymore. He was a USPS Letter Carrier for 31 years, even though he only had one kneecap. When I was young, I remember how much he was silent, most of the time. I had a rough go of it trying to catch up to him when I followed along, now and then, on his mail route. He walked the walk.

We came to this country to seek our fortunes in 'new territory,' America. We decided that taxation without representation was ridiculous. Now we have more taxes and even less representation. Our elected officials think that the 'special interest' groups speak for all Americans. I think that they just talk, talk, talk; but don't walk the walk. Too many fools walking around doing all the talking. It is the meek, the downtrodden few, who are quiet, most of the time, that you have to watch out for. One day they get their belly-full of someone or something and then, LOOKOUT; they're un-stoppable. My dad is that way. Well maybe not so much any more, but he talks about the walk that he had. I honor my dad. He is my hero. Always will be.
and please understand that i mean no disrespect for any who have been at war,

my dad faught against your dad

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi



"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;"

i see the war we are in as wrong, we invaded 2 other countries.
if i go to war, the govermnent i fight against is evil, but what of the innocent folks there.
dont our bombs kill them?
today war is different from the days of Jesus
you saw your enemy, face to face

bro Willi...

I do not own a gun, and I never will.

However, I ask you once again, do you believe that God institutes authorities to have the power to protect it's citizens?

Can a Christian police officer use a gun to protect and defend people in his community? Yes or no?

Poly
September 20th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

OK

Turbo said "But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords. "

why that day?

does this mean they never had swords before that day?
(Don't, Poly!! ....resist...must... resist!)

What does this have to do with anything?

:doh: (couldn't resist)

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

Resist evil within your own heart, devising mischief against God-fearing TOL'ers, who only tease you because you're easy prey. Read your Bible, and pray. Those things are important. The rest will fall into place, if you'll trust God.
i do trust in God.
i understand i chew my own food.
but trusting means trusting.
it does not mean play with fire and trust we wont get burnt.

how much do we trust, if we do not give our lives?

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

when is killing not murder?We've already given you some examples:
A government official executing a rightly convicted of a captal criminal A person defending himself or another from imminent life-threatening danger.

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

I think the point BW is tring to make is,what would Jesus do if in that situation?Would he pull out a gun and shoot a robber? Of course He wouldn't, but we aren't walking by faith in Him, or we'd be of The Same Spirit. We'd have spoken to Frances and to Ivan, and they'd have stopped. We'd have forbidden the terrorists to come to our shores. We'd also be able to shoot lightning bolts out of our arses, and get rid of all un-believers.

I think the point we're trying to make is: we're not Jesus, and don't walk at His Level, just yet. He saw our example of faith, when He said, "O ye of little faith." We're puny. He knew we'd need to protect ourselves, and told the disciples to buy swords, for just such an occasion. He also said that thieves don't come to us, except to kill, steal and destroy.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

Of course, since they weren't even allowed to carry a purse (money) or scrip (notepad). He had instructed them so.

but why that day?
was it to make a point?

what did those sword accomplish?

he never said use them, he stopped the use of them, even healed the ear damaged

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi


how much do we trust, if we do not give our lives?
Do you think God would consider you worse than an infidel for not feeding and clothing your family, but yet call you righteous for turning them over to the hands of a killer?


It is one thing to die for ministering the gospel, and another thing to die because you apathetically stand by while someone rapes and murders your wife and children.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

We've already given you some examples:
A government official executing a rightly convicted of a captal criminal A person defending himself or another from imminent life-threatening danger.

im still not sure thats just today

it was in the OT

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

If a robber comes into my home and i catch him and rebuke him in the name of Jesus i command him to leave,he will leave unharmed.Do you have enough faith to do it? What makes you think the robber would leave? When did God ever promise that?

And what do you make of Exodus 22:2-3a? Why is that in the Bible?

SOTK
September 20th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

but why that day?
was it to make a point?

what did those sword accomplish?

he never said use them, he stopped the use of them, even healed the ear damaged

It wasn't to make a point, bw, come on! There is only one reason to be ordered to carry weapons....defense. Jesus didn't want any of his disciples to be killed or harmed because He was being persecuted. He wanted them to protect themselves.

He healed that soldiers ear because he felt Peter acted out of anger and was not defending himself but Jesus. Jesus already knew what was going to happen to Him. It was an unnecessary act so he healed the soldier and told Peter to stand down.

That's my interpretation anyways.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

Do you think God would consider you worse than an infidel for not feeding and clothing your family, but yet call you righteous for turning them over to the hands of a killer?


It is one thing to die for ministering the gospel, and another thing to die because you apathetically stand by while someone rapes and murders your wife and children.

"But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."
what did the early Christians do?

did they let their enemy kill them?

what is lost if you believe in salvation?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

It wasn't to make a point, bw, come on! There is only one reason to be ordered to carry weapons....defense. Jesus didn't want any of his disciples to be killed or harmed because He was being persecuted. He wanted them to protect themselves.

He healed that soldiers ear because he felt Peter acted out of anger and was not defending himself but Jesus. Jesus already knew what was going to happen to Him. It was an unnecessary act so he healed the soldier and told Peter to stand down.

That's my interpretation anyways.
and i am interested in your interpretation

could Jesus not defend them?

the swords were not used with his permision.

and when they got pulled out, Jesus stopped it.

he could have let them kill each other, then walked to the high preists house and said "here i am"

Turbo
September 20th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

im still not sure thats just today

it was in the OT It's in the NT too. We've already shown you where.

I've seen you say that certain criminals ought to be imprisoned. Where's the Biblical justification for that?

And how are police officers supposed to go about apprehending criminals if the threat of force isn't allowed?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by Poly

(Don't, Poly!! ....resist...must... resist!)

What does this have to do with anything?

:doh: (couldn't resist)
did you find your answer Poly?

Jabez
September 20th, 2004, 09:37 PM
1-Exodus is OT,we dont live by that now.
2-Faith
3-Theres power in the most high name.Hebrews
Matthew-we are given authority over evil


Originally posted by Turbo

What makes you think the robber would leave? When did God ever promise that?

And what do you make of Exodus 22:2-3a? Why is that in the Bible?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

It's in the NT too. We've already shown you where.
yep, and we are talkin about that




I've seen you say that certain criminals ought to be imprisoned. Where's the Biblical justification for that?

was not Cain sent away?




And how are police officers supposed to go about apprehending criminals if the threat of force isn't allowed?
good question, are there countries that dont allow there cops to carry guns?

Sozo
September 20th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

It wasn't to make a point, bw, come on! There is only one reason to be ordered to carry weapons....defense. Jesus didn't want any of his disciples to be killed or harmed because He was being persecuted. He wanted them to protect themselves.

He healed that soldiers ear because he felt Peter acted out of anger and was not defending himself but Jesus. Jesus already knew what was going to happen to Him. It was an unnecessary act so he healed the soldier and told Peter to stand down.

That's my interpretation anyways.

Not to add any fuel to bro Willi's insanity, but the reason Jesus told them to go and buy a sword was so that the scripture could be fulfilled that He was numbered among transgressors...

"And He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one. "For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'And He was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." And they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough....

... And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him"

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

Not to add any fuel to bro Willi's insanity, but the reason Jesus told them to go and buy a sword was so that the scripture could be fulfilled that He was numbered among transgressors...

"And He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one. "For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'And He was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." And they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough....

... And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him"

bro Willi's insanity thanks you

SOTK
September 20th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

Not to add any fuel to bro Willi's insanity, but the reason Jesus told them to go and buy a sword was so that the scripture could be fulfilled that He was numbered among transgressors...

"And He said to them, "When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" And they said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one. "For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, 'And He was numbered with transgressors'; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment." And they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords." And He said to them, "It is enough....

... And when those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And a certain one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus answered and said, "Stop! No more of this." And He touched his ear and healed him"

Yes, you are correct, Sozo. That was really why He did that. Thanks.

SOTK

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 09:48 PM
I don't see how you can cut off a man's ear, unless you're swinging to cut off his head, and you either are a poor swordsman, or the soldier is trained well enough that he can duck sideways. That's the way I picture Peter, being one of the 'sons of thunder' they were nicknamed. I believe he was trying to kill the soldier.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 09:48 PM
time for me to go sleepy

thank you all for the talk

tomorrow
:wave:

Aimiel
September 20th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Good night Willi-Bob.

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Turbo
And what do you make of Exodus 22:2-3a? Why is that in the Bible?


Originally posted by Jabez

1-Exodus is OT,we dont live by that now.I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. The Exodus verses I referred to say that a man who kills a criminal in self-defense should not be punished. Are you saying that since "we dont live by that now," that the man who kills in self defense should be punished? If so, what should his penalty be?

What about murder, theft, and rape? They were crimes in the OT. Should they still be crimes today? When Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-4 that God wants governments to punish evildoers, what sorts of evildoers was he talking about?


Originally posted by Turbo

What makes you think the robber would leave? When did God ever promise that?


Originally posted by Jabez

2-Faith

3-Theres power in the most high name.Hebrews
Matthew-we are given authority over evil Would you please cite the specific passages you to which you are referring? Thanks, Jabez. :)

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't see how you can cut off a man's ear, unless you're swinging to cut off his head, and you either are a poor swordsman, or the soldier is trained well enough that he can duck sideways. That's the way I picture Peter, being one of the 'sons of thunder' they were nicknamed. I believe he was trying to kill the soldier.
im guessing by the time stamp on the threads, you missed Sozo's reply , before your post went up.

i will assume you agree with Sozo , unless you say otherwise.

yes Peter was ready to kill for Jesus.

Jesus stopped the battle.

Thank God that it is written Peter denied Jesus, just as we ALL will at times.

Thank God even more that Jesus still loved Peter.

do you see yourself in your brothers eyes?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Turbo

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. The Exodus verses I referred to say that a man who kills a criminal in self-defense should not be punished. Are you saying that since "we dont live by that now," that the man who kills in self defense should be punished? If so, what should his penalty be?

Jabez, please correct me if you think me wrong.

maybe, Jabez meant we should not kill in self defence.




What about murder, theft, and rape? They were crimes in the OT. Should they still be crimes today?

yes



When Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-4 that God wants governments to punish evildoers, what sorts of evildoers was he talking about?

Would you please cite the specific passages you to which you are referring? Thanks, Jabez. :)

first you must define a just government

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 08:34 AM
What have we all learned as a team?

do we buy a sword/gun for self defence?

temple2006
September 21st, 2004, 08:48 AM
Poly....Saw your post in the shout box....Maybe that blood in your eye is not from your scratching...maybe it is a squirt from when you were washing your feet in the blood of your enemies, maybe?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by temple 2000

Poly....Saw your post in the shout box....Maybe that blood in your eye is not from your scratching...maybe it is a squirt from when you were washing your feet in the blood of your enemies, maybe?

:thumb:
indeed something for Poly to ponder

Lucky
September 21st, 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

What have we all learned as a team?
There's one player who keeps fumbling.

do we buy a sword/gun for self defence?
:) :duh:

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Lucky

There's one player who keeps fumbling.

:) :duh:
even though you fumble, we will still hand you the ball

Nineveh
September 21st, 2004, 09:08 AM
Why own a gun?

To save the innocent from evil intentions:

Laotian forces have been accused of raping, disembowelling and murdering children belonging to the minority Hmong tribe in a campaign of state-sponsored terror. cite (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=561439)

I do not understand how a tool can be held accountable instead of the evil heart that turns it into a weapon against innocent blood.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Why own a gun?

To save the innocent from evil intentions:
please read the last 3 pages of this thread, you may find a different Way



I do not understand how a tool can be held accountable instead of the evil heart that turns it into a weapon against innocent blood.

a gun used for target shootin or hunting is a tool.
a gun used for protection is a weapon

Nineveh
September 21st, 2004, 09:22 AM
Abraham went to get Lot with arms, not flowers. Just so you will know, I don't own a gun. I appriciate what they have done to build this nation and the expert craftsmanship that has gone into making them, however. With that said, the evil heart of a man intent on harming my family may wish I did have a gun once he realizes my choice of tool to defend innocent blood, though :)

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Abraham went to get Lot with arms, not flowers. Just so you will know, I don't own a gun. I appriciate what they have done to build this nation and the expert craftsmanship that has gone into making them, however. With that said, the evil heart of a man intent on harming my family may wish I did have a gun once he realizes my choice of tool to defend innocent blood, though :)
Jesus gave you that right Ninevah.

you can live by the sword, or live by the Word

Nineveh
September 21st, 2004, 10:01 AM
... or I can live by the Word and protect the innocent blood in my home against the evil intentions of men's hearts.

Standing by to watch an evil man act out his unchecked desire is not Godly, it's godless.

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

And a .45 is great for killing a man. [or a really angry woman]

Speaking from personal experience, a 30.06 rifle can slow a guy down too!

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

... or I can live by the Word and protect the innocent blood in my home against the evil intentions of men's hearts.

Standing by to watch an evil man act out his unchecked desire is not Godly, it's godless.

please teach me then

protect, YES.


with a weapon, NOPE.

please teach me these words of kill my brother you speak of.
i have never seen them

Aimiel
September 21st, 2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

a gun used for target shootin or hunting is a tool.
a gun used for protection is a weapon So please enlighten us, did Jesus intend for Peter to use his sword for target shooting or hunting? He said we were to buy swords. I take that as 'handgun' in today's vernacular.

Aimiel
September 21st, 2004, 10:34 AM
They do not carry the sword in vain. I guess if we had one policeman for every human being, and they escorted us everywhere we went we wouldn't need to own guns. I don't believe that The Lord wants us to allow some fool in the middle of the night to be allowed to have his way with our family, but that we are to defend them, and protect them from all harm. 911 might get you a cop, if they're not busy at the moment, but Smith & Wesson will get you peace of mind, and a much quieter perpetrator, while you wait.

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 10:38 AM
I just stumbled onto this thread, so pardon me for being many post behind current. I usually keep to the Origins section, but it's been quiet lately, and this one's too good to pass up.


Originally posted by Turbo

But clearly Jesus did not think it was immoral to arm one's self with a sword, right? He told them earlier that day to get swords.
Turbo, I think Sozo (of all people) pointed out that you're kinda overlooking the reason He instructed them to get swords. What say you?


Originally posted by Turbo

As for "for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword," this is not a call for pacifism you hope it is. On the contrary, it is a call for the death penalty for murderers.
Turbo, for someone who looovvves to interpret the Bible as much as you do, this is quite an amazing stretch. Jesus was calling for the death penalty here? In the context of the incident (you know, Peter cutting off the slave’s ear with a sword and being reprimanded by Jesus, who then undoes the injury caused by the sword Peter wielded in Jesus’s defense), can you please explain how you could possibly see a call for the death penalty in Jesus saying “for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword??

Lucky
September 21st, 2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

please teach me these words of kill my brother you speak of.
Why would you consider an evildoer, i.e. someone breaking into your house, your "brother"?



Also, I think chandru46 is starting to speak better English than you. You might consider asking him to teach you some things like grammer, proper use of capitalization, syntax, etc.

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by aharvey

Turbo, I think Sozo (of all people) pointed out that you're kinda overlooking the reason He instructed them to get swords. What say you?Sozo is correct as usual. But if it were wrong to carry swords, Jesus would not have told them to do so. If Jesus wanted to be counted among criminals, he also could have instructed his followers to go mug a few people. But of course He would never do that. By carrying swords that day they were able to be regarded as criminals while committing no crime.


Turbo, for someone who looovvves to interpret the Bible as much as you do, this is quite an amazing stretch. Jesus was calling for the death penalty here? In the context of the incident (you know, Peter cutting off the slave’s ear with a sword and being reprimanded by Jesus, who then undoes the injury caused by the sword Peter wielded in Jesus’s defense), can you please explain how you could possibly see a call for the death penalty in Jesus saying “for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword?? If Peter hadn't stopped when Jesus warned him and ended up killing that Roman officer, he would have been executed.

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Turbo

Sozo is correct as usual. But if it were wrong to carry swords, Jesus would not have told them to do so. If Jesus wanted to be counted among criminals, he also could have instructed his followers to go mug a few people. But of course He would never do that. By carrying swords that day they were able to be regarded as criminals while committing no crime.

So Jesus chose swords specifically because He considered sword-carrying to be a good thing even though it technically made the carriers criminals? Interesting extrapolation...


Originally posted by Turbo

If Peter hadn't stopped when Jesus warned him and ended up killing that Roman officer, he would have been executed.

And THAT'S the basis for your claim that Jesus was calling for the death penalty? Way beyond interesting extrapolation, though!

BillyBob
September 21st, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by Aimiel

So please enlighten us, did Jesus intend for Peter to use his sword for target shooting or hunting? He said we were to buy swords. I take that as 'handgun' in today's vernacular.

I'd rather have a handgun than a sword, it's much easier to concele and you don't have to get real close to the person you are about to kill. :dead:

BillyBob
September 21st, 2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Lucky

Why would you consider an evildoer, i.e. someone breaking into your house, your "brother"?
.

The person breaking into Brother Wackie's house is his brother, but the posters at this website are vipers! :dunce:

Zakath
September 21st, 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I'd rather have a handgun than a sword, it's much easier to concele and you don't have to get real close to the person you are about to kill. :dead: But you can't use a handgun to help you fix a sandwich in a pinch... :D

... unless, of course, you count sticking up a Burger King... :think:

the Sibbie
September 21st, 2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

The person breaking into Brother Wackie's house is his brother, but the posters at this website are vipers! :dunce: AMEN!! :ha:

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

So please enlighten us, did Jesus intend for Peter to use his sword for target shooting or hunting? He said we were to buy swords. I take that as 'handgun' in today's vernacular.

did Sozo and aharvey explain this?

strange you see the Word saying He said we were to buy swords.

can you show me WE

Nineveh
September 21st, 2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Why would you consider an evildoer, i.e. someone breaking into your house, your "brother"?

You took the words right outta my mouth :lucky: ....

bW,
How might you protect your family against an armed villian unarmed?

The command is, "Thou shalt not murder". Murder is the unlawful taking of life.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

You took the words right outta my mouth :lucky: ....

bW,
How might you protect your family against an armed villian unarmed?
Faith, trust in God, THE WORD

let go of the sword




The command is, "Thou shalt not murder". Murder is the unlawful taking of life.

when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take?

your enemies life belongs to God.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 01:24 PM
CAn anyone show me where Jesus said

"WE are to buy swords"

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

The command is, "Thou shalt not murder". Murder is the unlawful taking of life.

Um, but I thought you considered abortion, which has been lawful for a few decades now, to be murder.

Maybe you meant murder is the unlawful taking of life, plus abortion?

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 01:35 PM
Unlawful doesn't always mean illegal. Look it up.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Unlawful doesn't always mean illegal. Look it up.

you mistake law, with Law

law is mans law

it is lawful in this country to murder babies(abortion)

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 01:43 PM
I'm sure Nineveh wasn't referring to man's law.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

I'm sure Nineveh wasn't referring to man's law.

then we must ask
is our law evil

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Unlawful doesn't always mean illegal. Look it up.

Hadn't realized that. It can mean "illegal" or "immoral." Not only that, but my Webster's dictionary, at least, does use "unlawful" when referring to murder, not "illegal." Well, actually it says murder is the unlawful and malicious taking of a human life by another human.

This thread goes a long way, at one level anyways, towards explaining the Christian-gun connection in this country. It's also interesting to note that the Biblical justifications being presented here either come from the eye-for-an-eye OT or from Paul, or else when Jesus himself is quoted it's way out of context. I think the range of situations in which you guys are comfortable with using deadly force is WAYYYY out of alignment with that of the Big Guy. Rationalize all you want ("What, you think he'd want Saddam to remain in power?"), but it's hard to escape the feeling that his view is that your temporary moment on this Earth should not be such a high priority for you that you should kill other people to prolong it.

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by aharvey

Hadn't realized that. It can mean "illegal" or "immoral." Not only that, but my Webster's dictionary, at least, does use "unlawful" when referring to murder, not "illegal." Well, actually it says murder is the unlawful and malicious taking of a human life by another human.:thumb: You got it! I'm actually quite pleased about that. There is a certain resident atheist on this board who refuses to acknowledge that simple point.


I think the range of situations in which you guys are comfortable with using deadly force is WAYYYY out of alignment with that of the Big Guy. Aren't you pro-choice?


Rationalize all you want ... but it's hard to escape the feeling that his view is that your temporary moment on this Earth should not be such a high priority for you that you should kill other people to prolong it. Then why did God specify that a man who kills in self-defense should not be punished?

philosophizer
September 21st, 2004, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

was not Cain sent away?
First off, I thought you payed no heed to the Old Testament. So what does it matter what Cain did?

Second, how is this anything like imprisonment? This is not imprisonment, it is banishment. Should criminals today be banished?

Why are you this dead-set against killing, claiming that Jesus never taught self-defense, and yet you accept imprisonment as a punishment? Show me where Jesus said "lock up all the murderers instead of killing them."





good question, are there countries that dont allow there cops to carry guns?
But they carry something! Be it a billy club, mag-lite, taser, or pepper-spray, they carry something as a criminal deterent. I don't know why you are thinking that there are other countries where the police just walk around and talk polite to the bad guys. Even without guns, police are still known to kick butt.

So do you also believe that one who "lives by the pepper-spray shall die by the pepper-spray"?

Turbo
September 21st, 2004, 02:33 PM
:first: (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16503)

Knight
September 21st, 2004, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

:first: (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16503) I agree! :up:

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

:thumb: You got it! I'm actually quite pleased about that. There is a certain resident atheist on this board who refuses to acknowledge that simple point.
No biggie. "Unlawful," "illegal," and "immoral" are just words, none of which were used in the original texts, right? (i.e., these are English words). It is too bad that the one word has these two meanings that differ in such an important way. Must be a source of lots of confusion.


Originally posted by Turbo

Aren't you pro-choice?

You'll have to explain why that's not a non sequitur. I should also mention that I make no claim to having the perspective that perfectly aligns with that of Jesus.


Originally posted by Turbo

Then why did God specify that a man who kills in self-defense should not be punished?

Which God is this, eye-for-an-eye or lose-your-life-by-saving-it? i.e., is this OT God or Jesus talking? You haven't followed up on the Peter-sword-Jesus-death penalty questions, so I'm assuming you're getting this from somewhere else?

philosophizer
September 21st, 2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by aharvey
Which God is this, eye-for-an-eye or lose-your-life-by-saving-it? i.e., is this OT God or Jesus talking?

You're not a Christian, right? Well, Christians believe they are one and the same. Which makes bW's position all the more perplexing.

aharvey
September 21st, 2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by philosophizer

You're not a Christian, right? Well, Christians believe they are one and the same. Which makes bW's position all the more perplexing.

Oh, I understand full well that they are one in the same. I also understand that Jesus came in and clarified or otherwise changed a few things that were in the OT (what'd He say about food, for example?). I don't find BW's position perplexing at all. Jesus does say things that are more consistent with a meek inheriting the earth, turn the other cheek worldview. He doesn't spend a lot of time discussing when it's okay to do grievous bodily harm to others. Why aren't the implications of that even worth considering?

Aimiel
September 21st, 2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I'd rather have a handgun than a sword, it's much easier to concele and you don't have to get real close to the person you are about to kill. Methinks this is why they wore long tunics in those days, so that even those who couldn't afford a sword might look like he's armed, by carrying a good stout stick under his clothing.

Aimiel
September 21st, 2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

The person breaking into Brother Wackie's house is his brother, but the posters at this website are vipers!Go ahead and preach, BillyBob!!! :thumb:

Lucky
September 21st, 2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

please teach me these words of kill my brother you speak of.

Originally posted by Lucky

Why would you consider an evildoer, i.e. someone breaking into your house, your "brother"?
Still waiting for a response, bW.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by aharvey

Hadn't realized that. It can mean "illegal" or "immoral." Not only that, but my Webster's dictionary, at least, does use "unlawful" when referring to murder, not "illegal." Well, actually it says murder is the unlawful and malicious taking of a human life by another human.

This thread goes a long way, at one level anyways, towards explaining the Christian-gun connection in this country. It's also interesting to note that the Biblical justifications being presented here either come from the eye-for-an-eye OT or from Paul, or else when Jesus himself is quoted it's way out of context. I think the range of situations in which you guys are comfortable with using deadly force is WAYYYY out of alignment with that of the Big Guy. Rationalize all you want ("What, you think he'd want Saddam to remain in power?"), but it's hard to escape the feeling that his view is that your temporary moment on this Earth should not be such a high priority for you that you should kill other people to prolong it.
:thumb:

as i recall, arent you atheist?

it is funny how atheist sometimes understand what Jesus said, better then his so called followers

Aimiel
September 21st, 2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by aharvey

Why aren't the implications of that even worth considering? Because He knew our faith, that we would not walk in what He walked in, for quite some time. We haven't even begun to yet, 2,000 years later. I believe that The Lord also asked the most profound question ever posed upon the earth: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Every time I read that, I pray, "Lord, grant that you might find it in me."

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by philosophizer

You're not a Christian, right? Well, Christians believe they are one and the same. Which makes bW's position all the more perplexing.
some read the Word with a gun in their hand, fearing the bad guy breaking in the door.

fear is what seperates us.

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

Because He knew our faith, that we would not walk in what He walked in, for quite some time. We haven't even begun to yet, 2,000 years later. I believe that The Lord also asked the most profound question ever posed upon the earth: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Every time I read that, I pray, "Lord, grant that you might find it in me."
do you own a gun for protection?

then fear is in you.

why do you fear man, dont you trust God?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Why would you consider an evildoer, i.e. someone breaking into your house, your "brother"?

Still waiting for a response, bW.

didnt you get the memo?

we are all from Adam and Eve.

when you understand Jesus, you are my Brother in faith

Jabez
September 21st, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. The Exodus verses I referred to say that a man who kills a criminal in self-defense should not be punished. Are you saying that since "we dont live by that now," that the man who kills in self defense should be punished? If so, what should his penalty be?

What about murder, theft, and rape? They were crimes in the OT. Should they still be crimes today? When Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-4 that God wants governments to punish evildoers, what sorts of evildoers was he talking about?

Would you please cite the specific passages you to which you are referring? Thanks, Jabez. :)

Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.

Acts4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

James 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Theres power in the name.

2 Timothy 1:7 For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline.

Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Colossians 3:17 (1) Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, (2) giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

Hebrews 1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Self defense,iam all for it.Crimals should be punished according to the laws set forth.

Lucky
September 21st, 2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

didnt you get the memo?

we are all from Adam and Eve.
Okay. I wouldn't call an evildoer my brother, but if you consider him your brother, be my guest.

I realize this is going off-topic a little, but since you answered me the way you did, I'm dying to know how you'll respond to these questions:

Why are you referring to the OT, which you write off as useless for doctrine? And since you're a WWJD'er/Red Letter-onlyist, why do you go against Christ's definition of a brother?
Matthew 12:48-50
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

:confused:

Jabez
September 21st, 2004, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Okay. I wouldn't call an evildoer my brother, but if you consider him your brother, be my guest.

I realize this is going off-topic a little, but since you answered me the way you did, I'm dying to know how you'll respond to these questions:

Why are you referring to the OT, which you write off as useless for doctrine? And since you're a WWJD'er/Red Letter-onlyist, why do you go against Christ's definition of a brother?
Matthew 12:48-50
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

:confused:

Good question!Maybe we should say who is my neigbor?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Okay. I wouldn't call an evildoer my brother, but if you consider him your brother, be my guest.

I realize this is going off-topic a little, but since you answered me the way you did, I'm dying to know how you'll respond to these questions:

Why are you referring to the OT, which you write off as useless for doctrine? And since you're a WWJD'er/Red Letter-onlyist, why do you go against Christ's definition of a brother?
Matthew 12:48-50
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

:confused:
i answered
i said

when you understand Jesus, you are my Brother in faith

do these words disagree with what Jesus said?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

Good question!Maybe we should say who is my neigbor? :think:

Jabez
September 21st, 2004, 06:50 PM
Proverbs 6:30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.

Lucky
September 21st, 2004, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i answered
i said

when you understand Jesus, you are my Brother in faith

do these words disagree with what Jesus said?
For the sake of argument, no. But, I wasn't talking about those words. Here are your words, the words I was commenting on:

Originally posted by brother Willi

didnt you get the memo?

we are all from Adam and Eve.
And so I repeat:

Why are you referring to the OT, which you write off as useless for doctrine? And since you're a WWJD'er/Red Letter-onlyist, why do you go against Christ's definition of a brother?
Matthew 12:48-50
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

:confused:

temple2006
September 21st, 2004, 07:01 PM
But Lucky, Jesus did not say ONLY those who do the will........?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

For the sake of argument, no. But, I wasn't talking about those words. Here are your words, the words I was commenting on:

And so I repeat:

Why are you referring to the OT, which you write off as useless for doctrine? And since you're a WWJD'er/Red Letter-onlyist, why do you go against Christ's definition of a brother?
Matthew 12:48-50
But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

:confused:
Lucky, you got brothers or sisters?

brother Willi
September 21st, 2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by philosophizer

First off, I thought you payed no heed to the Old Testament. So what does it matter what Cain did?

if the NT says a new Way, then it overwrites the OT

not all the OT is overwritten



Second, how is this anything like imprisonment? This is not imprisonment, it is banishment. Should criminals today be banished?
thats how Australia got many of its folks




Why are you this dead-set against killing, claiming that Jesus never taught self-defense, and yet you accept imprisonment as a punishment? Show me where Jesus said "lock up all the murderers instead of killing them."
to stop a fist with your hand is self defence


But they carry something! Be it a billy club, mag-lite, taser, or pepper-spray, they carry something as a criminal deterent. I don't know why you are thinking that there are other countries where the police just walk around and talk polite to the bad guys. Even without guns, police are still known to kick butt.

So do you also believe that one who "lives by the pepper-spray shall die by the pepper-spray"?

if your a cop, carry all these things you like

Nineveh
September 21st, 2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Faith, trust in God, THE WORD

let go of the sword

...some words in BOLD...


when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take?

your enemies life belongs to God.

...completely evading the question....

:think:

:idea:

bW, I think you have been possessed by smaller! Where if Freak when you need him?

aharvey
September 22nd, 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

:thumb:

as i recall, arent you atheist?

it is funny how atheist sometimes understand what Jesus said, better then his so called followers

Worse, I'm an evolutionary biologist! I'm not foolish enough to believe that we can say there is no God. I just don't go for the literal interpretation of the OT as infallible historical document. Although I know many people on this group do not seem to consider Catholics "real" Christians, that's how I was raised, Catholic schools and everything, so I'm not exactly naive about the contents of the Bible. I found the huge impact of Gibson's movie intriguing; apparently Catholics spend a good deal more time dwelling on the gory details of the passion than do other denominations, who were thus unprepared for a visual representation of these events.

aharvey
September 22nd, 2004, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Aimiel

Because He knew our faith, that we would not walk in what He walked in, for quite some time. We haven't even begun to yet, 2,000 years later. I believe that The Lord also asked the most profound question ever posed upon the earth: "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" Every time I read that, I pray, "Lord, grant that you might find it in me."

Sorry, I don't see how that makes BW's viewpoint so wrong that it's not even worth considering.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

...some words in BOLD...



...completely evading the question....

:think:

:idea:

bW, I think you have been possessed by smaller! Where if Freak when you need him?
i answered your question, with a question.
did you think about my questions?

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Originally posted by philosophizer

First off, I thought you payed no heed to the Old Testament. So what does it matter what Cain did?

if the NT says a new Way, then it overwrites the OT

not all the OT is overwritten
Your god must be bipolar. "Kill kill kill... no wait... changed my mind... just let me wash your feet."




Second, how is this anything like imprisonment? This is not imprisonment, it is banishment. Should criminals today be banished?
thats how Australia got many of its folks
This is not an answer.





Why are you this dead-set against killing, claiming that Jesus never taught self-defense, and yet you accept imprisonment as a punishment? Show me where Jesus said "lock up all the murderers instead of killing them."
to stop a fist with your hand is self defence
Not an answer.





But they carry something! Be it a billy club, mag-lite, taser, or pepper-spray, they carry something as a criminal deterent. I don't know why you are thinking that there are other countries where the police just walk around and talk polite to the bad guys. Even without guns, police are still known to kick butt.

So do you also believe that one who "lives by the pepper-spray shall die by the pepper-spray"?
if your a cop, carry all these things you like
Not an answer!



This is why so many people are getting impatient with you, brother Willi. You aren't answering questions that people are asking you.

When I asked about banishment today, you talk about Australia. I understand the reference, but it does nothing toward answering my question.

When I asked you to show me where Jesus would support imprisoning murderers, you replied about stopping a fist. That didn't even ADDRESS the quote that it was a reply to.

When I challenged your idea that police in other countries don't carry weapons, you told me what I could do if I became a policeman. What does that have to do with my challenge?!!



Look. A lot of people are impatient with you. Some might have "blood in their eyes" as you say, but most are just put out by your inconsiderate discussion method. If some people have responded to you in aggrevation, it is only because you have not shown them the love you claim to cherish in your responses. You have made it appear as though you do not really care about what they are asking you.

When someone does this, people commonly just ignore the person. But I have seen people struggling against your conveyed apathy. They do this because they want to reach you and have a discussion.

Okay. Maybe you're style of posting isn't the long-argumentative form that most have here. But when you deliberately start several threads for the purpose of debating big issues, you had better at least attempt to present a proper debate form and actually break apart and answer questions presented to you.

Now here's reality. brother Willi, you are posting on a religious debate site. The purpose here is to debate. Debate involves a cycle of answering questions and then presenting new ones. When you don't answer questions, you don't appear to care. When you don't appear to care, you aren't showing Love. So why don't you show us some love and answer the questions that many people have, in love, presented to you.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by aharvey

Worse, I'm an evolutionary biologist!
yep, but we can agree to disagree on evolution, and still be good neighbors



I'm not foolish enough to believe that we can say there is no God. I just don't go for the literal interpretation of the OT as infallible historical document. Although I know many people on this group do not seem to consider Catholics "real" Christians, i see bloodthirsty OT lovin Christians as missing the point Jesus came to make.
there is scum in all ponds
there is also clean water in all ponds



that's how I was raised, Catholic schools and everything, so I'm not exactly naive about the contents of the Bible. I found the huge impact of Gibson's movie intriguing; apparently Catholics spend a good deal more time dwelling on the gory details of the passion than do other denominations, who were thus unprepared for a visual representation of these events.

yep, me too Catholic schools

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer



Now here's reality. brother Willi, you are posting on a religious debate site. The purpose here is to debate. Debate involves a cycle of answering questions and then presenting new ones. When you don't answer questions, you don't appear to care. When you don't appear to care, you aren't showing Love. So why don't you show us some love and answer the questions that many people have, in love, presented to you.
to teach another, is sometimes the best way to learn yourself

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by Jabez

Proverbs 6:30 Men do not despise a thief if he steals
to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
yep, and if one shoots before asking, they may shoot a good man

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

to teach another, is sometimes the best way to learn yourself

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 --
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


Do you have love?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

1 Corinthians 13:1-3 --
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


Do you have love?
you tell me

do i?

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you tell me

do i?

Luke 6:32-33 --
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.


Can you show love to those who ask questions against your beliefs? Can you give them answers? Do you care?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

Luke 6:32-33 --
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.


Can you show love to those who ask questions against your beliefs? Can you give them answers? Do you care?

am i not attacked for living these words?

Luke 6:32-33 --
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

am i not attacked for living these words?

Luke 6:32-33 --
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that.


Romans 14:19-21 --
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

If you are being attacked, why do you not love your attackers by giving them what they want-- by turning the other cheek?

They want answers to questions. You refuse to give them this. You are doing something to cause your brother to fall. You are not showing love. You do not seem to care.

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:25 AM
brother Willi,

Am I your neighbor?

Am I your brother?

Do you love me?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

Romans 14:19-21 --
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

If you are being attacked, why do you not love your attackers by giving them what they want-- by turning the other cheek?

They want answers to questions. You refuse to give them this. You are doing something to cause your brother to fall. You are not showing love. You do not seem to care.
if i give you a fish, you eat for one day.

if i teach you how to fish, you eat everyday.

questions make folks think a lot harder

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

brother Willi,

Am I your neighbor?

Am I your brother?

Do you love me?

YES!

YES!

YES!

Am I your neighbor?

Am I your brother?

Do you love me?

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

YES!

YES!

YES!

Why did you reply to my questions in such an inconsiderate way?




Am I your neighbor?

Am I your brother?

Do you love me?
Yes to all three.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

Why did you reply to my questions in such an inconsiderate way?


im sorry if you see it as inconsiderate

please tell me why



Yes to all three.

:D

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

im sorry if you see it as inconsiderate

please tell me why
From post #176 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=595780#post595780)

Originally posted by philosophizer
When I asked about banishment today, you talk about Australia. I understand the reference, but it does nothing toward answering my question.

When I asked you to show me where Jesus would support imprisoning murderers, you replied about stopping a fist. That didn't even ADDRESS the quote that it was a reply to.

When I challenged your idea that police in other countries don't carry weapons, you told me what I could do if I became a policeman. What does that have to do with my challenge?!!







Originally posted by brother Willi
:D Congrats on that third green star, by the way.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

From post #176 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=595780#post595780)


how would you answer your questions?








Congrats on that third green star, by the way.
howbout that
thank you:D

philosophizer
September 22nd, 2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

how would you answer your questions?
My questions were about your beliefs. I can't answer them. And even if I could, it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

The main point of that post was to ask you about imprisonment. Would you have murderers imprisoned their whole lives? If so, why? Is it because of something Jesus said? If so, what?

And the second point was about police who don't carry guns. They do carry something. If it's not alright for a cop to use a gun on a criminal, is it okay to use a billy club?







howbout that
thank you:D You're welcome.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer

My questions were about your beliefs. I can't answer them. And even if I could, it wouldn't be nearly as fun.

The main point of that post was to ask you about imprisonment. Would you have murderers imprisoned their whole lives? If so, why? Is it because of something Jesus said? If so, what?
i see jail more in what Jesus taught then a good stoneing to death.
do you?


And the second point was about police who don't carry guns. They do carry something. If it's not alright for a cop to use a gun on a criminal, is it okay to use a billy club?

if it is called for, yes

but justly, and with mercy.

we must always see ourselves in our brothers and sisters.

do your questions teach me?






You're welcome. [/QUOTE]

Aimiel
September 22nd, 2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by aharvey

Sorry, I don't see how that makes BW's viewpoint so wrong that it's not even worth considering. For the same reason that selling everything that you have and giving all your money to the poor isn't done... a lack of faith. If we trusted The Lord half as much as we think we do, we'd do as He said, not as we think. We think we're walking by faith, but most of what we do shows what we have faith in: money. We work, we buy guns to defend our 'stuff' and we save money for vacations. I just don't see where someone ought to be foolish enough to put their life on the line, not keeping a gun in the house and not being willing to defend the lives and safety of their family (apparently) by thinking that one suggestion by The Lord would mean that their obedience is mandatory, when one isn't follwing all that He said, or at least looking at the context of what was said. It just seems too far-fetched. It reminds me of the 'snake-handling' churches, for some reason. Completely out-of-context; and not worth regarding as sound or acceptable doctrine.

aharvey
September 22nd, 2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Aimiel

For the same reason that selling everything that you have and giving all your money to the poor isn't done... a lack of faith. If we trusted The Lord half as much as we think we do, we'd do as He said, not as we think. We think we're walking by faith, but most of what we do shows what we have faith in: money. We work, we buy guns to defend our 'stuff' and we save money for vacations. I just don't see where someone ought to be foolish enough to put their life on the line, not keeping a gun in the house and not being willing to defend the lives and safety of their family (apparently) by thinking that one suggestion by The Lord would mean that their obedience is mandatory, when one isn't follwing all that He said, or at least looking at the context of what was said. It just seems too far-fetched. It reminds me of the 'snake-handling' churches, for some reason. Completely out-of-context; and not worth regarding as sound or acceptable doctrine.

Nope, still not getting it. Your first couple of sentences seem to say that we work to get money, buy stuff, buy guns to protect our stuff, because we don't have enough faith in the Lord to do what he actually said to do (which I assume does NOT revolve around money, stuff, and protection thereof!), not as we think. So far you sound like you're exactly on the same page as BW. The second half of your post seems to be where you dismiss his viewpoint, but frankly, your arguments don't add up to me.

I agree that it is inappropriate to base your entire view on this or any other issue on one statement (suggestion? I've never heard of Jesus's teaching being considered mere suggestions before!), especially without properly recognizing the context of the statement. However, if you follow this thread, this has been more of a problem with the pro-gun (pro-sword?) crowd. BW's argument, as aggravatingly as he may seem to be presenting it, is in fact that when you look overall at what Jesus said and did, it's hard to justify the legal weaponry and aggression that seem to characterize our society. And I happen to think that that's a valid viewpoint worthy of more serious consideration than is being presented here, for exactly the reasons that you wish to deny it!

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 11:06 AM
Matthew 25:36
naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

Matthew 25:39
'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Matthew 25:36
naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'

Matthew 25:39
'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'

Do you think that these verses endorse a prison system?

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i answered your question, with a question.
did you think about my questions?

You said, "protect, YES. with a weapon, NOPE."

I asked, "How might you protect your family against an armed villian unarmed?"

You "answered", " when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take? your enemies life belongs to God."


Either your "protection" is simply standing by to watch the slaughter, or you believe an evil man has the "right" to take your family's lives while you don't have the right to stop the evil.

Out of curiosity...

If you saw another man's wife being murdered, would you stop it? If yes, How far would you go to stop it?

Granite
September 22nd, 2004, 02:24 PM
Guns good.

Being raped/mugged/murdered bad.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Do you think that these verses endorse a prison system?


for now
what was the punishment for murder given to Cain?
banishment.not death

hard to banish a person in the world today without jail of sometype.

whats your thoughts

should it be a new thread?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 02:41 PM
Did you answer my question yet? Did those verses endorse a prison system?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

You said, "protect, YES. with a weapon, NOPE."

I asked, "How might you protect your family against an armed villian unarmed?"

You "answered", " when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take? your enemies life belongs to God."


Either your "protection" is simply standing by to watch the slaughter, or you believe an evil man has the "right" to take your family's lives while you don't have the right to stop the evil.

Out of curiosity...

If you saw another man's wife being murdered, would you stop it? If yes, How far would you go to stop it?
i would do my best to stop harm from coming to anyone.

if the "weapon" is used to kill, then the question remains

" when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take? your enemies life belongs to God."

if you "knock out" the bad guy, then he is no longer a danger.

but still alive.


talkin and askin is a great way to learn

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i would do my best to stop harm from coming to anyone.

if the "weapon" is used to kill, then the question remains

" when does Jesus teach you your enemies life is yours to take? your enemies life belongs to God."

Yes, the question remains, how far would you go to stop the evil man from murdering your neighbor's wife?


if you "knock out" the bad guy, then he is no longer a danger.

but still alive.

You missed. Now he is going to murder her and you. What now?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Did you answer my question yet? Did those verses endorse a prison system?



what was the punishment for murder given to Cain?
banishment.not death

hard to banish a person in the world today without jail of sometype.

so yes, i believe JAIL, is Biblical in the sense that banishment is.

whats your thoughts

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Yes, the question remains, how far would you go to stop the evil man from murdering your neighbor's wife?



You missed. Now he is going to murder her and you. What now?

you tell me

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you tell me

You let the evil man do as his selfish desire dictates?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

You let the evil man do as his selfish desire dictates?

that looks like a question.
:D

is that your answer?

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 02:59 PM
She's asking what you would do, brother Willi. Or, what do you think is the right thing to do in that situation?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

what was the punishment for murder given to Cain?
banishment.not death

hard to banish a person in the world today without jail of sometype.

so yes, i believe JAIL, is Biblical in the sense that banishment is.

whats your thoughts

My thoughts are that you have stated your opinion, and shown us no biblical support for it. Banishment and jail are 2 different things.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

She's asking what you would do, brother Willi. Or, what do you think is the right thing to do in that situation?

tell me what you want me to do.:D

then i can tell you if i can

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Crow

My thoughts are that you have stated your opinion, and shown us no biblical support for it. Banishment and jail are 2 different things.
lets start a new thread.

please if you could Crow, ive been starting many

please lets talk

Turbo
September 22nd, 2004, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

tell me what you want me to do.:D

then i can tell you if i can I doubt it.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

I doubt it.
try me:D

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:08 PM
Brother Willie, I see no need or gain to be had by starting a new thread for a person who is not intellectually honest enough to answer direct questions, but yet demands that others answer his.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Brother Willie, I see no need or gain to be had by starting a new thread for a person who is not intellectually honest enough to answer direct questions, but yet demands that others answer his.
when do i demand you answer mine?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:12 PM
You demand that of nurmerous people who have tried to debate you. And I'm not going to waste time posting links, as BB and I did before. Remember how you reacted, bW? The others who read this know that which I speak of.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Crow

You demand that of nurmerous people who have tried to debate you. And I'm not going to waste time posting links, as BB and I did before. Remember how you reacted, bW? The others who read this know that which I speak of.
the drug threads???

think crow think

what were the drug threads???

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

the drug threads???

think crow think

what were the drug threads???

A stunning example of your deceptiveness and untruthfulness.

BillyBob
September 22nd, 2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Crow

A stunning example of your deceptiveness and untruthfulness.

Yep!

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

tell me what you want me to do.:D

then i can tell you if i can

If your neighbor's wife was about to be murdered, how far would you go to stop the criminal? Would you bother to do anything at all? Call the cops so they could clean up after? Take pictures? Use lethal force?

What would you expect of your neighbor if he was witness to your wife in the same situation?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Crow

A stunning example of your deceptiveness and untruthfulness.
and how do crackheads sound?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

and how do crackheads sound?

It doesn't matter how they sound. You are deceitful and untruthful. Not to be trusted or believed.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

If your neighbor's wife was about to be murdered, how far would you go to stop the criminal? Would you bother to do anything at all? Call the cops so they could clean up after? Take pictures? Use lethal force?

What would you expect of your neighbor if he was witness to your wife in the same situation?
i own no guns, so what to do:think:

stop them, but with words alone?

might work.

take out his knee with a well placed kick, he wont be able to walk or run after us.

if he has a gun or knife
if i get close enough, get myself on his gun/knife hand side, then he cant shoot/stab me, then take out his knee.

hows that sound?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Crow

It doesn't matter how they sound. You are deceitful and untruthful. Not to be trusted or believed.
you dont get it and thats ok.
didnt you say you were an addict?

if not, im sorry i misread somethin.

if so, you sounded just like that

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you dont get it and thats ok.
didnt you say you were an addict?

if not, im sorry i misread somethin.

if so, you sounded just like that

Nice try at a redirect, bW. You are still deceitful and untruthful.

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i own no guns, so what to do:think:

The first murderer used a rock.


stop them, but with words alone?

might work.

It seems you are willing to bet your family's lives on it.


take out his knee with a well placed kick, he wont be able to walk or run after us.

if he has a gun or knife
if i get close enough, get myself on his gun/knife hand side, then he cant shoot/stab me, then take out his knee.

hows that sound?

It's good to know you would at least put forth some effort. What if it took taking his life to stop him from murdering your neighbor's wife?

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Nice try at a redirect, bW. You are still deceitful and untruthful.
sound to me as you are

i did it to make a point.

you shootin blanks for fun?:D

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

The first murderer used a rock.



It seems you are willing to bet your family's lives on it.



It's good to know you would at least put forth some effort. What if it took taking his life to stop him from murdering your neighbor's wife?
i dont think i would, but it has never happened, so the honest answer is
i dont know.

i assume you dont wish it on me.

what would you do?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

sound to me as you are

i did it to make a point.

you shootin blanks for fun?:D
Why would I choose to believe a provable liar?

It's like the boy who cried wolf. Lie enough times, and eventually no one believes you, whether you are being truthful or not.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 06:53 PM
the first punishment for murder was banishment, not death

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i dont think i would, but it has never happened, so the honest answer is
i dont know.

i assume you dont wish it on me.

what would you do?

I would love my neighbor as myself and to the best of my ability stop the evil doer, even if that means his life for his victim's.

About Cain not being put to death...

If from the time of Abel's murder to the Flood letting murderers go free had a positive impact on the hearts of men then God would not have noted:

"The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time."

Nor would He have changed the rule to kill the murderers as soon as Noah got off the boat.

Balder
September 22nd, 2004, 07:08 PM
Buddhism emphasizes non-violence and one of its central "commandments" is not to kill (not just not to murder, but not to kill), so I don't say this lightly:

I won't say that I would never kill someone in a crisis situation like the ones you all have been discussing, but I would certainly look for ways to incapacitate the person rather than killing them. An injury that knocks them unconscious or stops them from moving long enough to get away is always a possibility.

Buddhism teaches that it is a sin to kill, but if you kill without hatred then the consequences are not as bad for the killer than if the killing is done with malice. But some Buddhist teachers have also turned conventional morality on its head with this line of thinking:

If an act of killing leads inevitably to punishment or hell, it is sometimes better for the "spiritual" person to volunteer to take the punishment (even time in Hell) by killing a person who can't be stopped otherwise, especially if you know that by so doing you will prevent them from accumulating worse karma for themselves, and from causing terrible suffering and hardship to others.

The best solution, in Buddhist thinking, would be to stop the person from committing murder or rape and to imprison them in an environment where they actually have a chance to be reformed. But in some extreme circumstances, the moral and altruistic response would be to knowingly "accept" whatever negative karma or punishment may befall you for committing a single murder, if you can thereby stop someone from committing an even greater evil that will cause great longterm harm both to themselves and others.

Attention to the welfare even of the murderer plays a part in this "extreme-case" thinking ... attention that is notably absent in most "Christian" discussions of this issue on TOL.

Peace,
Balder

Jabez
September 22nd, 2004, 07:12 PM
My life is on the line for any of my brothers and sisters,if nessasary i would use a gun to defend them.I would gladly risk my life for my family,brothers and sisters,neigbor or anyone in harms way.I cant think of a better way to die than laying your life down for someone elses,can you?

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Jabez

My life is on the line for any of my brothers and sisters,if nessasary i would use a gun to defend them.I would gladly risk my life for my family,brothers and sisters,neigbor or anyone in harms way.I cant think of a better way to die than laying your life down for someone elses,can you?

I have a whole collection of guns. I've shot since I was about 4--I was so young I don't remember the first time. I have never shot another human being, and hope never to do so.

In defense of myself or family, I would shoot an attacker and kill him if necessary to defend. If I didn't have a gun, I'd use whatever is on hand, but I keep my guns loaded and accessable because the reality is that a 5'2" female is unlikely to stop someone bent on criminal assault effectively by other means. I am more likely to protect myself and my family effectively by using a firearm.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Why would I choose to believe a provable liar?

It's like the boy who cried wolf. Lie enough times, and eventually no one believes you, whether you are being truthful or not.
to crow, Billy, catty, all

the crackhead is now an ex-crackhead.

i come to you and say

i am sorry for the hell i must have put you through.

i understand now, you were doing your best to correct me, but my ears were closed.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME


now its up to you

will you forgive me, or hold this over me forever?

Jabez
September 22nd, 2004, 07:28 PM
Ive already forgotten,what was it again?......lol.;)

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

to crow, Billy, catty, all

the crackhead is now an ex-crackhead.

i come to you and say

i am sorry for the hell i must have put you through.

i understand now, you were doing your best to correct me, but my ears were closed.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME


now its up to you

will you forgive me, or hold this over me forever?

If you want to be forgiven, fine, you are. But what's your being an ex-crackhead have to do with your untruthfulness now? Nothing.

I do not believe you to be a truthful or credible person based upon your own words.

BB is credible.
SOTK is credible
Purex is credible, even if I think almost everything he believes is wrong.

Credibility isn't about crack, booze, drugs, or forgiveness.

Jabez
September 22nd, 2004, 07:29 PM
Hey iam credible!......;)

Nineveh
September 22nd, 2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Balder

Buddhism emphasizes non-violence and one of its central "commandments" is not to kill (not just not to murder, but not to kill), so I don't say this lightly:

I have no doubt.


I won't say that I would never kill someone in a crisis situation like the ones you all have been discussing, but I would certainly look for ways to incapacitate the person rather than killing them. An injury that knocks them unconscious or stops them from moving long enough to get away is always a possibility.

The law here in my state says something similar. If you can get away you must or it will be seen as murder rather than self defense (outside the home). I think most people would seek a way to remove the threat with minimal loss of life. Except maybe Gerald. ( :) )


Buddhism teaches that it is a sin to kill, but if you kill without hatred then the consequences are not as bad for the killer than if the killing is done with malice. But some Buddhist teachers have also turned conventional morality on its head with this line of thinking:

You understand there is distinction between murder and kill, so why not call them by them what they are instead of lumping two different things into one name?


If an act of killing leads inevitably to punishment or hell, it is sometimes better for the "spiritual" person to volunteer to take the punishment (even time in Hell) by killing a person who can't be stopped otherwise, especially if you know that by so doing you will prevent them from accumulating worse karma for themselves, and from causing terrible suffering and hardship to others.

I think my God has a better way. Don't murder, if you do know the government will take your life. (unfortunatly men refuse to follow God's ideas most of the time... )

If you accidentally or lawfully take a life you are not held accountable for their blood.


The best solution, in Buddhist thinking, would be to stop the person from committing murder or rape and to imprison them in an environment where they actually have a chance to be reformed.

Prison doesn't work. Has Charles Manson been "reformed"? He himself refuses all forms of available help.


But in some extreme circumstances, the moral and altruistic response would be to knowingly "accept" whatever negative karma or punishment may befall you for committing a single murder, if you can thereby stop someone from committing an even greater evil that will cause great longterm harm both to themselves and others.

Commiting a murder isn't the same as killing. Unless one repents of murder he will see hell after the government exacts justice. If they repent, the will be delivered from hell by their Savior after the government exacts justice.

Killing a murderer is not a sin. An example would be the executioners.


Attention to the welfare even of the murderer plays a part in this "extreme-case" thinking ... attention that is notably absent in most "Christian" discussions of this issue on TOL.

The welfare of the gulty murderer's soul can have one cure. Christ. He has until the end of his life to repent whether he knows the end will be in 3 days or he does not know the day of his death (usually of old age in prison).

Murder isn't something that is forgotten so easily. What is missed by the people who seek other "ways" than Christ is these people live, knowing daily, blood is on their hands. That is a hard burden to bear and an act that can not be undone. It is mercy to let someone like Andrea Yates* know her day and hour.

(*the last I heard she was starving herself to death and her husband has recently filed for divorce.)

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Crow

If you want to be forgiven, fine, you are. But what's your being an ex-crackhead have to do with your untruthfulness now? Nothing.

I do not believe you to be a truthful or credible person based upon your own words.

BB is credible.
SOTK is credible
Purex is credible, even if I think almost everything he believes is wrong.

Credibility isn't about crack, booze, drugs, or forgiveness.
you see it as you wish crow

my words are honest, they are as i believe.

if you see fault in my words correct me as i do you.

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:49 PM
what have we learned?

if you need someone to come over and kill the bad guy, dont call me.
if you want help in any way that dont include the death of anyone but myself, call me

brother Willi
September 22nd, 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Prison doesn't work. Has Charles Manson been "reformed"? He himself refuses all forms of available help.

is charles manson a danger to us today?

billwald
September 22nd, 2004, 08:58 PM
After listening for 40 years to My Old Man saying that he would not permit gunss in his house, I proposed that I post a sign in fron of his house, "GUN-FREE HOUSE." He replied, "You think I am crazy?"

In other words, he could be "righteous" as long as there were other people who would do the killing for him.

Crow
September 23rd, 2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by billwald

After listening for 40 years to My Old Man saying that he would not permit gunss in his house, I proposed that I post a sign in fron of his house, "GUN-FREE HOUSE." He replied, "You think I am crazy?"

In other words, he could be "righteous" as long as there were other people who would do the killing for him.

:chuckle: And also OK with benefiting from having people THINK that he might have guns.

aharvey
September 23rd, 2004, 07:04 AM
I'm finding it hard to believe 1) that I'm finding BW to be the aggrieved party in this thread, and 2) how steadfastly you guys refuse to even consider his central point, that Jesus himself was consistent and unambiguous about the taking of a life. The responses I've heard to this have been:

1) BW, you're untrustworthy, so why should we believe you?
2) OT quotes.
3) NT quotes that have nothing to do with whether and when it is appropriate to kill.
4) "Common sense" arguments: what would you do if someone tried to kill you/your wife/etc.?
5) I've had a gun since I was a baby, and no one's gonna take that away from me.

Not one of you have seriously considered the implications of the possibility that in fact Jesus didn't give his approval to deadly response in any situation. What it seems to boil down to is that you are more than willing to wield the Bible in defense of any restriction, as long as it doesn't affect you personally.

Harsh? Let's take a few examples:

Evolution: None of you are evolving (not an insult, individuals cannot evolve, only populations), so it does you no harm to insist on a literal interpretation of the OT. So you do.

Homosexuality: There may be an exception or two lurking here, but it's safe to assume that most of you are not homosexual and in fact find the thought personally repulsive. Therefore, it does you no harm to insist on as many sanctions and restrictions on this behavior as possible.

Divorce: The "sanctity of marriage" is a key argument in favor of banning gay marriage. Never mind the fact that the vast, vast majority of people who would violate the sanctity of marriage in a world where gay marriage was allowed would still be those heterosexuals getting divorced. So why isn't there a far larger outcry against the far more widespread violation of this sacrament? Why not calls for a constitutional amendment banning divorce? Because, unlike homosexuality, this one might affect you personally. And even if you don't plan to get a divorce, you do NOT want the option taken away from you. Cattyfan started a very revealing thread not too long ago, criticizing people who get multiple divorces. Odd restriction, I thought; why not just divorces period? Well, turns out she's had a divorce herself, so she knows from personal experience that even a good Christian may find it necessary to violate the sanctity of marriage. But her understanding only applies to the first divorce; she seems to be certain that all subsequent divorces must have some other, unChristian cause.

Guns: I'm sorry, but there is precious little support for the idea that Jesus would be in favor of killing other people to protect yourself. I'd say he was pretty consistent in opposing this idea, and in fact some of his most wistful remarks were to the effect that the biggest obstacle most people would face in getting to heaven involved sacrificing your Christian principles in order to extend your puny temporary moment here on Earth. But hardly anyone here will even consider that idea, and you've made it abundantly clear that you're willing to do whatever it takes in order to extend your puny temporary moment here on Earth.

Bottom line seems to be that you're willing to be very, er, aggressive in your support of particular Christian ideals, but only to the extent that they don't apply to you directly. Which makes you only human, I guess!

cattyfan
September 23rd, 2004, 08:05 AM
Cattyfan started a very revealing thread not too long ago, criticizing people who get multiple divorces. Odd restriction, I thought; why not just divorces period? Well, turns out she's had a divorce herself, so she knows from personal experience that even a good Christian may find it necessary to violate the sanctity of marriage. But her understanding only applies to the first divorce; she seems to be certain that all subsequent divorces must have some other, unChristian cause.


Interesting you decide to cite me on a thread on which I haven't been posting. Let me refresh your memory: My divorce wasn't something I wanted...and my divorce and anullment met the Biblical criteria for disolution of marriage, which is why a bishop in the Catholic church with whom I had been seeking council for years shepherded me through the process. (see my answer on the Women's Rights thread.)

I still don't approve of divorce at the drop of a hat. People who don't take their vows seriously disgust me.

And of course their would be a higher percentage of divorces for heterosexuals: there is a far greater number of heterosexuals in existance.

Good to know my comments are sticking in your head, but do try to keep them accurate, in context, and complete.

Nineveh
September 23rd, 2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

is charles manson a danger to us today?
To your point: does prison "work"?


what have we learned?

That to you "loving your neighbor as yourself" means siding with evil over innocence.

aharvey
September 23rd, 2004, 08:18 AM
Originally posted by cattyfan

Interesting you decide to cite me on a thread on which I haven't been posting. Let me refresh your memory: My divorce wasn't something I wanted...and my divorce and anullment met the Biblical criteria for disolution of marriage, which is why a bishop in the Catholic church with whom I had been seeking council for years shepherded me through the process. (see my answer on the Women's Rights thread.)

I still don't approve of divorce at the drop of a hat. People who don't take their vows seriously disgust me.

And of course their would be a higher percentage of divorces for heterosexuals: there is a far greater number of heterosexuals in existance.
So wouldn't a ban on divorce go much, much farther towards protecting the sanctity of marriage?


Originally posted by cattyfan

Good to know my comments are sticking in your head, but do try to keep them accurate, in context, and complete.

If you'd actually read this post, you would see that your comments are used in context, and accurate. Your thread did not question why a Christian would get a divorce; it questioned why a Christian would get more than one divorce. You gave yourself as an example of a Christian who got one divorce, and gave your justifications. You explicitly question whether those justifications could be used more than once.

I'm sure you don't want to see the relevance of that to this thread, but it's there. People are more willing to cut slack on things that may affect them personally than on things that don't. Think about racial profiling. Virtually all the folks I've heard arguing in favor of it would never be affected by it.

Aimiel
September 23rd, 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i assume you dont wish it on me.I 'wish it on you' if only for the fact that you'll learn how stupid pacifism really is, when dealing with criminals. They aren't going to learn anything except that yours is a great neighborhood to do as they please without any interference, to speak of.

brother Willi
September 23rd, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by aharvey

I'm finding it hard to believe 1) that I'm finding BW to be the aggrieved party in this thread, and 2) how steadfastly you guys refuse to even consider his central point, that Jesus himself was consistent and unambiguous about the taking of a life. The responses I've heard to this have been:

1) BW, you're untrustworthy, so why should we believe you?
2) OT quotes.
3) NT quotes that have nothing to do with whether and when it is appropriate to kill.
4) "Common sense" arguments: what would you do if someone tried to kill you/your wife/etc.?
5) I've had a gun since I was a baby, and no one's gonna take that away from me.

Not one of you have seriously considered the implications of the possibility that in fact Jesus didn't give his approval to deadly response in any situation. What it seems to boil down to is that you are more than willing to wield the Bible in defense of any restriction, as long as it doesn't affect you personally.

Harsh? Let's take a few examples:

Evolution: None of you are evolving (not an insult, individuals cannot evolve, only populations), so it does you no harm to insist on a literal interpretation of the OT. So you do.

Homosexuality: There may be an exception or two lurking here, but it's safe to assume that most of you are not homosexual and in fact find the thought personally repulsive. Therefore, it does you no harm to insist on as many sanctions and restrictions on this behavior as possible.

Divorce: The "sanctity of marriage" is a key argument in favor of banning gay marriage. Never mind the fact that the vast, vast majority of people who would violate the sanctity of marriage in a world where gay marriage was allowed would still be those heterosexuals getting divorced. So why isn't there a far larger outcry against the far more widespread violation of this sacrament? Why not calls for a constitutional amendment banning divorce? Because, unlike homosexuality, this one might affect you personally. And even if you don't plan to get a divorce, you do NOT want the option taken away from you. Cattyfan started a very revealing thread not too long ago, criticizing people who get multiple divorces. Odd restriction, I thought; why not just divorces period? Well, turns out she's had a divorce herself, so she knows from personal experience that even a good Christian may find it necessary to violate the sanctity of marriage. But her understanding only applies to the first divorce; she seems to be certain that all subsequent divorces must have some other, unChristian cause.

Guns: I'm sorry, but there is precious little support for the idea that Jesus would be in favor of killing other people to protect yourself. I'd say he was pretty consistent in opposing this idea, and in fact some of his most wistful remarks were to the effect that the biggest obstacle most people would face in getting to heaven involved sacrificing your Christian principles in order to extend your puny temporary moment here on Earth. But hardly anyone here will even consider that idea, and you've made it abundantly clear that you're willing to do whatever it takes in order to extend your puny temporary moment here on Earth.

Bottom line seems to be that you're willing to be very, er, aggressive in your support of particular Christian ideals, but only to the extent that they don't apply to you directly. Which makes you only human, I guess!

:thumb:

POTD