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Christine
September 13th, 2004, 04:36 AM
Home-schooling robs children
By MARGARET W. BOYCE


I read with interest the recent article in The Sentinel about home-school
families. I find it strange that we send our young men and women to help
assure that children can go to school in Afghanistan, yet we allow parents
in Michigan to keep their children at home.

One of the best and brightest moves that our Founding Fathers made was to
make it possible for all children in America, not just the rich, to be
educated. Eventually, all children were expected to attend. If they did not,
they were considered "truant" and parents were held responsible and could go
to jail. This public education still is the very cornerstone of democracy.

This strange phenomenon called "home schooling" at best undermines these
principles. For many children, it is far worse. Who is monitoring these
families? Many a child of abusive parents has an observant teacher to thank
for a rescue, some for their very lives. To whom can these children turn
when they are kept at home? They are being denied a basic right, which has
been fought for all the way to the Supreme Court -- the right to attend
school.

We don't allow people to play doctor or nurse without a license, nor can
one play lawyer without passing some rather rigorous tests. But today,
anyone who wants to "play school" can do so, regardless of their educational
background. Recently, some parents have been jailed for withholding medical
treatment for their children, yet we are almost making heroes of these
parents who do the same with their children's education.

Some parents of home-schooled children speak glowingly of the "wonderful
imaginations" developed by their lonely child, who, being surrounded always
by adults, has little opportunities to develop friendships with real
children. Others associate only with small groups of like-minded people.
What happens when they enter the world and cannot control everything, as
they do in their sheltered home environment?

What an ego trip for a parent -- to be all things to your children, to
control every thought, every concept that enters their world. Is this
education, or programming? To deny them the stimulation of working and
playing with their peers is unfair. It's far better to send them out into
the world for brief forays, such as the school day, and then discuss the
day's adventure while they are still young enough to want to work out values
with their parents.

There are other losses, such as never being "on the team," never cheering
for "our school," never being in a class where the interaction of ideas is
more important than the text, or doing any of the myriad of things that make
up the process of "belonging," from the first day of school to the 50th
class reunion. There is far more to an education than a curriculum -- it
includes summer break, Friday nights and graduation.

I have met and talked with a variety of home-schoolers, both children and
parents. Many have great gaps in their knowledge. Many are incredibly naive.
Some do quite well -- they would have been superstars in school. Others
can't wait to leave home, knowing full well that they have been cheated.

Parents often believe that they are protecting their children from the
"evils" of life. However, children cannot be brought up in a bell jar.
Remember that the school day is only six hours long, five days a week. That
leaves many hours during the week and summer for the parent.

Give your child the wings needed to grow outside of that jar. If parents
wish to be involved in the education of their children, there are many
opportunities to be part of the school day. Volunteer to be a lunch or
recess monitor. Offer to tutor children in reading or math. Help the art
teacher. Be a part of the process of building your community, not a member
of the opposition.

A recent Harvard study following home-schooled children over many years
found that these children did not do better at the college level than
traditionally educated children. The real trip was for the mothers, who
received the big emotional rewards. My response is: Mothers, get a life. How
unfair it is for you to take away your own child's life in order to gratify
yours? Is this what we must expect from the "me first" generation as it
raises their families?

The role of a parent is vital in a child's education. However, without all
four of the pillars provided by home, school, church and community working
together, we have a precarious foundation for the next generation. The
public school system is the very cornerstone of democracy in America. We
need to cherish it and nurture it.

http://www.thehollandsentinel.net/stories/091204/opi_091204052.shtml

Crow
September 13th, 2004, 05:30 AM
I wonder why this woman feels that homeschool kids have no friends? Or why she feels that it is her decision whether parents should have the option to school their kids or not?

She cites that one has to have a license to nurse and be a lawyer. This it true if one is doing this activity for the public for profit. One has the right to act as his own counsel without a law degree, just as parents have performed nursing activities for their kids and within ther families since time immemorable.

Kids have the right to an education. They do not have an obligation to a public school education. Homeschooling and private schools are a good alternative.

The Columbus Ohio area published a list of the schools it deemed to be substandard based on tests and how long the school had been on the list. Some had been there for 5 years. If I had a kid in one of those 5 year failures, I would be negligent if I let my kid go to such a miserable disgrace of a learning institution.

It's the parent's choice. And no one is destroying their community and joining the "opposition" if they homeschool. What a nutcase.

Turbo
September 13th, 2004, 06:21 AM
Originally written by Margaret W. Boyce

One of the best and brightest moves that our Founding Fathers made was to
make it possible for all children in America, not just the rich, to be
educated. Eventually, all children were expected to attend. If they did not,
they were considered "truant" and parents were held responsible and could go
to jail. This public education still is the very cornerstone of democracy.Boyce thinks our founding fathers established the public school system? :hammer:

Lucky
September 13th, 2004, 08:26 AM
:kookoo: :chuckle:

Jefferson
September 13th, 2004, 08:56 AM
Homeschooling robs children of having good odds of becoming sluts before they graduate highschool.

Gerald
September 13th, 2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Crow
I wonder why this woman feels that homeschool kids have no friends?Well, all the ones I've ever encountered were nutbars...

billwald
September 13th, 2004, 11:26 AM
How many have you encountered and under what circumstances?

Gerald
September 13th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by billwald
How many have you encountered...137 over the last two years. Yes, I have kept a count.

...and under what circumstances?Ordinary social situations.

ShadowMaid
September 13th, 2004, 02:02 PM
I didn't even read the whole thing, and I'm going to take this time to ask... why do I find this incredibly stupid?

Now please excuse me while I finish this painful article. :rolleyes:

Crow
September 13th, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Well, all the ones I've ever encountered were nutbars...

I met ebenz's kid and Christine and Elaine a few months ago. They weren't nutbars and they were 3 nice intelligent kids.

Then there are the kids my nephew hangs out with in his public school. And the get up they adopt over the summer. One, in particular, comes to mind....

Picture a somewhat dumpy kid of around 16. His hair is cut about 1/4 inch long all over his head except for 3 inch bangs which hang, lank and greasy, upon his pimple bespecked foreheand. The bangs are streaked blond (on black hair) in a manner resembling prison stripes. Blue spray paint or dye or who knows what has been applied to the rest of the hair in a somewhat dappled pattern. One eyebrow is pierced 3 times. He wears hoop earrings in both ears, and a zircon stud in his nose.

The t-shirt is black, sleveless, and conspicuously unclean. Eau de pitt is painfully evident.

He affects the layered look for his lower body. A layer of bare love handle, with a saucy hint of cleavage. A layer of exposed underwear. A layer of baggy pants, sagging in the manner of one who has loaded one's undergarment.

The sandals are of the style once known as "Ho Che Minh. The toenails are laquered black.

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be a nutbar. :chuckle:

If I had kids, I sure wouldn't want them hanging out with this .... I don't know what to call him. True, he's the most repulsive of the bunch and has to clean up somewhat during the school year, but the rest aren't far behind. I'd rather keep my kids at home or at a private school, even if they did lose out on some of the social aspects of rubbing elbows with such a ..... specimen.

Gerald
September 13th, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Crow
I met ebenz's kid and Christine and Elaine a few months ago. They weren't nutbars and they were 3 nice intelligent kids.Well, I did say all the ones that I had encountered...;)

Picture a somewhat dumpy kid of around 16. His hair is cut about 1/4 inch long all over his head except for 3 inch bangs which hang, lank and greasy, upon his pimple bespecked foreheand. The bangs are streaked blond (on black hair) in a manner resembling prison stripes. Blue spray paint or dye or who knows what has been applied to the rest of the hair in a somewhat dappled pattern. One eyebrow is pierced 3 times. He wears hoop earrings in both ears, and a zircon stud in his nose.

The t-shirt is black, sleveless, and conspicuously unclean. Eau de pitt is painfully evident.

He affects the layered look for his lower body. A layer of bare love handle, with a saucy hint of cleavage. A layer of exposed underwear. A layer of baggy pants, sagging in the manner of one who has loaded one's undergarment.

The sandals are of the style once known as "Ho Che Minh. The toenails are laquered black.

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be a nutbar. :chuckle:

If I had kids, I sure wouldn't want them hanging out with this .... I don't know what to call him. True, he's the most repulsive of the bunch and has to clean up somewhat during the school year, but the rest aren't far behind. I'd rather keep my kids at home or at a private school, even if they did lose out on some of the social aspects of rubbing elbows with such a ..... specimen. Problem is, the truly dangerous "specimens" are the ones who dress and speak well and keep their grades up, but beneath that civilized exterior beats the heart of a villain of the deepest dye...like yours truly... ;)

Crow
September 13th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Problem is, the truly dangerous "specimens" are the ones who dress and speak well and keep their grades up, but beneath that civilized exterior beats the heart of a villain of the deepest dye...like yours truly... ;)

They ones who dress and speak well do have the potential. That loathsome friend of my nephew.....oh, well--the world needs ditchdiggers too. Was that from Stripes?

I'd rather have my nephew hang with the clean dangerous than the bizzaro kids. Sometimes, I just have to look at them, even though they're gross as heck. It's like passing a really horrible car wreck--no matter how civilized you pretend to be, you just gotta look.....

Gerald
September 13th, 2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Crow
They ones who dress and speak well do have the potential.Indeed. Just look at Eddie Haskell...

I'd rather have my nephew hang with the clean dangerous than the bizzaro kids.Are you sure about that? A "clean, dangerous" could corrupt your nephew and turn him into... :noway: ...an atheist. I know that I've planted that evil seed into more than one young mind... :devil:

Are you certain that bizarro and basically harmless is preferable to...the alternative...? :noid:

Just doing my part to curdle the milk of human kindness... ;)

SOTK
September 13th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Yes, all this from a room full of experts in here. :yawn: I noticed most of you are parents. :rolleyes:

ebenz47037
September 13th, 2004, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

Yes, all this from a room full of experts in here. :yawn: I noticed most of you are parents. :rolleyes:

Your point being?

SOTK
September 13th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Your point being?

I'm tired of hearing anti-public school remarks and seeing anti-public school threads. Homeschooling is fine and has my support, but I'm tired of the snide remarks, generalizations, and negative feelings from homeschoolers or homeschool supporters regarding public school. It's especially tiresome coming from fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Furthermore, I get irritated when some of the people campaigning against public school aren't even parents yet!

I don't mind debating the ends and outs of this issue, but when it comes across in the fashion that I described above and/or I feel that I am being judged, it bothers me.

I have never felt that way with you, Nori. I appreciate your opinion and how you address it. :)

SOTK

Christine
September 13th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Your point being?
He doesn't think someone's qualified to speak on an issue unless they've "been there, done that." :rolleyes:

ebenz47037
September 13th, 2004, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

I'm tired of hearing anti-public school remarks and seeing anti-public school threads. Homeschooling is fine and has my support, but I'm tired of the snide remarks, generalizations, and negative feelings from homeschoolers or homeschool supporters regarding public school. It's especially tiresome coming from fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Furthermore, I get irritated when some of the people campaigning against public school aren't even parents yet!

I've been on all three sides of the board with this issue. :) :jessilu: was in Christian school for kindergarten and first grade, public school for about one to two months in second grade and again for about three months in fourth grade, and homeschooled the rest. My choice, based solely on the schools (both public and private) that I've dealt with, is to homeschool my daughter. I know that some people cannot homeschool. That's one reason I volunteer to help parents who want to homeschool but can't. I also know people who would like to send their kids to public or private school but don't, either because of distance or finances.

The reason I do not put down parents for making educational decisions for their children is because the decision belongs in the hands of the parents. I tend to ignore comments, both pro-homeschooling and anti-homeschooling, that put down parents for making decisions that they feel are in their childrens' best interests. I saw your remark and took the bait and bit. :chuckle:


I don't mind debating the ends and outs of this issue, but when it comes across in the fashion that I described above and/or I feel that I am being judged, it bothers me.

Let 'em judge you. One way or the other, it has no effect on how you raise your children. Does it? I know what it's like being judged. I'm the second parent ,in my generation, in my family who has decided to homeschool. Most of my family looks down on my cousin and me. But, my cousin's oldest son just got a free ride to Princeton based on his SAT score. Very proud of him. :)

My family tells me, all the time, that :jessilu: needs to experience public school. I tell them that I don't want her to be pregnant by the time she graduates (if she even does) or told that she cannot learn to her full potential because it hurts someone's feelings.


I have never felt that way with you, Nori. I appreciate your opinion and how you address it. :)

SOTK

I know. :) I saw the comment and had to bite. :chuckle: I know it's hard having some of the criticism about your decisions on how to raise your children coming from a child. I love Christine, but in this case, I think she's wrong. Parents have to make the decisions about their own children and should be applauded for doing such a thing in today's world of little to no morals.

ebenz47037
September 13th, 2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Christine

He doesn't think someone's qualified to speak on an issue unless they've "been there, done that." :rolleyes:

Okay, Christine. Now, it's your turn. :chuckle: You know that I like you very much. And, you know how I feel about homeschooling. But, in this case, I have to agree with SOTK.

It is the parents' responsibility to raise their children how they see fit. That includes their education. Although, personally, I believe that homeschooling is much better for children than private and/or public school, each parent should make that decision, without fear of criticism from children not related to them. This is a case of respecting your elders. I believe that children should respect their elders unless given reason not to. Reasons not to respect your elders include abuse or disrespect shown by the elder in question toward your parents. I have seen neither of those from SOTK toward you.

And, although I say "children should respect their elders," I can say that I show a good example of that myself. I respect my elders.

I know that this is taking this discussion off track, but I felt this needed to be said. Christine, please remember that I am saying this in love.

SOTK
September 13th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Nori,

Thank you for your supportive and encouraging words! I sincerely appreciate them. :) I hope some of the others around here learn to follow your tact. It's one thing to disagree on an issue but quite another to pass judgement or to ridicule.

I hope :jessilu: knows what a special mother she has in you!

In Christ,

SOTK

SOTK
September 13th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Christine

He doesn't think someone's qualified to speak on an issue unless they've "been there, done that." :rolleyes:

Are you dense? My problem with you and how you disrespected me was explained quite clearly by myself and others in that last homeschooling thread of yours. I stated often in that last thread that I respected your right to your opinions as long as you respected mine. As far as I am concerned, you sinned against me and remain unrepentant about it. I used to have a lot of respect for you, Christine, eventhough we haven't seen eye to eye on certain issues. Obviously, that has changed. You crossed the line and it's obvious to me you have a lot of growing up to do.

I can tell you one thing; my kids might be in public education but they would never disrespect their elders as you have done nor be blinded by their own pride.

In Christ,

SOTK

Lighthouse
September 14th, 2004, 12:01 AM
The woman who wrote that article is daft!

I met :jessilu: and...:shut:

Yorzhik
September 14th, 2004, 12:26 AM
I can tell you one thing; my kids might be in public education but they would never disrespect their elders as you have done nor be blinded by their own pride.
That's great. I just hope you realize that it will be in spite of public school, not because of it.

This guy isn't even a Christian. You can read a lot of what he has to say, just look him up on the internet: Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto.

If you can be shamed into getting your kids out of public school, that would be my honored service to you and your children.

ebenz47037
September 14th, 2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

That's great. I just hope you realize that it will be in spite of public school, not because of it.

This guy isn't even a Christian. You can read a lot of what he has to say, just look him up on the internet: Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto.

If you can be shamed into getting your kids out of public school, that would be my honored service to you and your children.

Yorzhik,

It is not our job, as homeschooling parents, to shame non-homeschooling parents into pulling their kids out of public schools. I believe, without a doubt, that homeschooling is the best thing for children and for parents. But, I also believe, without a doubt, that it is the parents' responsibility to decide what is best for their children, not their friends' children, or their neighbors' children, or even their nieces and nephews.

There are families who do have to have the income from two working parents (I don't know if this is the case in SOTK's family or not). My own opinion should have nothing to do with how they raise their kids unless they ask me for advice.

What you're trying to do to SOTK right now is pretty much the same thing my own family is trying to do to me about putting my daughter back in public school. But, I'll tell you like I tell my own family. It's none of your business what he does about his childrens' educations.

I don't mean to be rude to you. But, I honestly get tired of people telling parents how to raise their children. I hear this all the time. Most of the homeschooling parents I know believe that it's the best thing for children to be homeschooled. But, they also recognize that they cannot force parents to do what they do.

Yorzhik
September 14th, 2004, 12:54 AM
Okay Nori, I'm just full of vinegar tonight for some reason.

Crow
September 14th, 2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Gerald
Are you certain that bizarro and basically harmless is preferable to...the alternative...? :noid:

Just doing my part to curdle the milk of human kindness... ;)

The school my nephew goes has one of the worst bunches of kids I have ever seen. The school expects almost nothing of their students, and it shows. Take my nephew. He has a D+ average, and yet he was passed into the next grade. He reads on about a 3rd grade level, and he's in the 9th. And there's nothing wrong with his smarts--he's just not going to do what doesn't interest him.

He's going to make his own decisions regarding what he believes, regardless of where he gets (or doesn't get) his education. We've had a few discussions about religion and faith, and he's undecided. I'm concerned, but I realize that not all people make their choices early--I was over 40 when I did.

I don't want him to be 25, unable to hold a job, and hanging out with junkies.

If kids want to achieve, then they can in the worst of schools. But not every kid does. It's kids like my nephew who definitely shouldn't be in a public school. Not only does he disrupt the rest of the class, but he has plenty of fellow goofs to socialize with, as opposed to actually learning anything. And he just keeps getting passed on to the next grade.

I wish his parents would do something different with him, but that's their call. I worry a lot about this kid.

ebenz47037
September 14th, 2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

Okay Nori, I'm just full of vinegar tonight for some reason.

Me too. :) I don't want to be rude. Homeschooling is a subject near and dear to my heart. But, like I said a couple of times, so is parenting. :)

I have a hard time when I see people telling other parents how to parent. I get it all the time from my own family. I think that's the main reason I keep wanting to stand up for SOTK (that, and I think he's a pretty nice guy). :)

I go through spurts with this. Most of the time, you will see me arguing for homeschooling. But, that's because most of the time people are saying that parents cannot teach their children as well as public school teachers can. Right now, it's more of a thing about parents being responsible for the choices about their own children.

BTW, I had an arguement with my mom today about my sister being responsible for her own children. That's one of the reasons my mom's moving back to California. She wants to "take care of my nephew." She's definitely not going to like my sister's plan to homeschool him and move him to Arkansas.

ebenz47037
September 14th, 2004, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by SOTK

Nori,

Thank you for your supportive and encouraging words! I sincerely appreciate them. :) I hope some of the others around here learn to follow your tact. It's one thing to disagree on an issue but quite another to pass judgement or to ridicule.

Not a problem. I just have to do and say what's in my heart.


I hope :jessilu: knows what a special mother she has in you!

In Christ,

SOTK

Not yet. She's 14 and "knows more than I do" right now. She'll realize that I'm not so stupid later in life. :chuckle:

SOTK
September 14th, 2004, 02:23 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

That's great. I just hope you realize that it will be in spite of public school, not because of it.

I'm not necessarily implying that it has anything to do with Public Education. Christine knows what I'm talking about. The comment was meant towards her, obviously, and not you. My kids attitude and behaviorisms come from my wife and I and our instruction of the Bible. In other words, they don't need homeschooling to be brought up right in Christ.


Originally posted by Yorzhik
If you can be shamed into getting your kids out of public school, that would be my honored service to you and your children.

Shame?? You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even stooping to such a ridiculous and hurtful remark! My family is quite happy with our decisions regarding education and we do not require nor want your service. Instead, what we should have is your support, brotherly love, and acceptance. Obviously, that's too much to ask of you. Kindly reserve your "shame" for yourself.

In Christ,

SOTK

SOTK
September 14th, 2004, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Not a problem. I just have to do and say what's in my heart.

Well, thanks again for continuing to stick up for me on this! I do realize what your opinion on this issue is, and I really don't have a problem with it. :) As I have said repeatedly, homeschooling has my support. I just don't think it's the only option. I came to a decision which I feel is the best for my children, and as you have so rightly and eloquently stated, it's my business.

As for your heart, it's a big one! :)



Originally posted by ebenz47037
Not yet. She's 14 and "knows more than I do" right now. She'll realize that I'm not so stupid later in life. :chuckle:

I can relate to that! :chuckle: She will realize it though! :)

In Christ,

SOTK

Christine
September 14th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

Are you dense? My problem with you and how you disrespected me was explained quite clearly by myself and others in that last homeschooling thread of yours.
SOTK, the "others" you refer to our yourself and Firechyld. Unless I've forgotten someone, there was no one else saying that I was being disrespectful.


I stated often in that last thread that I respected your right to your opinions as long as you respected mine. As far as I am concerned, you sinned against me and remain unrepentant about it.
SINNED How? By supposedly disrespecting you???


I used to have a lot of respect for you, Christine, even though we haven't seen eye to eye on certain issues. Obviously, that has changed. You crossed the line and it's obvious to me you have a lot of growing up to do.
I have not changed. Perhaps your outlook on me has. Do I have some growing up to do, sure, but I'm not sure it's in the areas you think it is. My parents (the ones that matter here) see nothing wrong with what I do.


I can tell you one thing; my kids might be in public education but they would never disrespect their elders as you have done nor be blinded by their own pride.
SOTK, you refer back quite a bit to the "other thread." Have you read our dialouge there lately? I asked you questions that were short and to the point. I could have been taken as being "curt" but I fail to see how I was disrespectful. However, the way you came at me, just because I asked you a few questions was quite strong. By the way, my father has cautioned me about how I debate with adults, such as yourself, who are older than me. He has told me to be respectful and courteous, but that is not to prevent me from debating with them or telling them they are wrong. How are you defining disrespectful?

Lighthouse
September 15th, 2004, 12:36 AM
Well, I'm saying it now. Christine, you have been very disrespectful in your attitude towards SOTK.

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by Christine

Home-schooling robs children
By MARGARET W. BOYCE

What an ego trip for a parent -- to be all things to your children, to
control every thought, every concept that enters their world. I highly doubt some woman would bother to make the sacrifices that homeschooling moms need to make just for a good old ego trip.


There is far more to an education than a curriculum -- it
includes summer break, Friday nights and graduation. It's news to me that homeschoolers don't have summer breaks, Friday nights to hang with friends and graduations. :rolleyes:



The real trip was for the mothers, who
received the big emotional rewards. My response is: Mothers, get a life. How
unfair it is for you to take away your own child's life in order to gratify
yours? Is this what we must expect from the "me first" generation as it
raises their families?Actually, she's got it backwards. Mothers who homeschool there children are actually sacrificing a lot of their free time. I just recently talked to a mother who was proclaiming how glad she was to have her son out of the house every day now that he's started school. She also mentioned that her husband is at home during the day and leaves for work right before her son comes home from school. So he really misses his dad and won't be able to see him at all until maybe the weekends. I mentioned that she could homeschool him and she curtly said, "I'm not for homeschooling." Try telling me that that isn't a "me first" attitude!


The
public school system is the very cornerstone of democracy in America. We
need to cherish it and nurture it. If my kids have a higher chance of getting shot or having to deal with all the peer-pressure of having sex at a young age, etc., NO THANKS! Judging by her attitude, I wouldn't want her kids' attitudes to rub off on my kids.

Lucky
September 15th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Well, I'm saying it now. Christine, you have been very disrespectful in your attitude towards SOTK.
Welcome to TruthSmack.com

philosophizer
September 15th, 2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Christine

Home-schooling robs children
By MARGARET W. BOYCE

....

The role of a parent is vital in a child's education. However, without all
four of the pillars provided by home, school, church and community working
together, we have a precarious foundation for the next generation. The
public school system is the very cornerstone of democracy in America. We
need to cherish it and nurture it.


What a ridiculous article! She apparently subscribes to that whole "it takes a village" notion.

philosophizer
September 15th, 2004, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Crow

I wonder why this woman feels that homeschool kids have no friends? Or why she feels that it is her decision whether parents should have the option to school their kids or not?

She cites that one has to have a license to nurse and be a lawyer. This it true if one is doing this activity for the public for profit. One has the right to act as his own counsel without a law degree, just as parents have performed nursing activities for their kids and within ther families since time immemorable.

Kids have the right to an education. They do not have an obligation to a public school education. Homeschooling and private schools are a good alternative.

The Columbus Ohio area published a list of the schools it deemed to be substandard based on tests and how long the school had been on the list. Some had been there for 5 years. If I had a kid in one of those 5 year failures, I would be negligent if I let my kid go to such a miserable disgrace of a learning institution.

It's the parent's choice. And no one is destroying their community and joining the "opposition" if they homeschool. What a nutcase.

Right on! :thumb:

avatar382
September 15th, 2004, 08:35 AM
If my kids have a higher chance of getting shot or having to deal with all the peer-pressure of having sex at a young age, etc., NO THANKS! Judging by her attitude, I wouldn't want her kids' attitudes to rub off on my kids.

Frankly, I don't believe it's the peer pressure that has kids having sex at a young age, it's the pressure of the rather strong natural human sex drive. Those who have the conviction to resist it will do so regardless of any peer pressure. Those who do not have the conviction will give into it.

I think the quality of homeschooled education depends on the parents administering the lessons. My roommate in college was homeschooled, and he was perhaps the most intelligent and learned person I have ever known.

Then again, his mother was a professor of English and his father held a Master's in Mathematics and a Ph.D. in Literature, and was a freelance playwright...

I have a public school education. I am pleased with it. I enjoyed my time in high school, I had many great experiences, and what I learned adequately prepared me for college. I think that homeschool can work for some, while public school can work for others.

philosophizer
September 15th, 2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Gerald

Well, all the ones I've ever encountered were nutbars...


You're one to talk.

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by Crow
What a nutcase. :ha: That's what I was thinking. That and a flaming liberal. :Patrol:

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by avatar382

Frankly, I don't believe it's the peer pressure that has kids having sex at a young age, it's the pressure of the rather strong natural human sex drive. Those who have the conviction to resist it will do so regardless of any peer pressure. Those who do not have the conviction will give into it. That's not true. Even if you have the conviction, after being around people with lower standards, you convincing yourself that perhaps bending the rules a bit won't harm anything, even when you know in the back of your head that you shouldn't be doing this and later on regret giving in to temptation. I'll shamefully admit that I'm guilty of this. :(

Actually what you said resembles something my aunt recently said to me. I mentioned that my cousin should just get married already since they already live together (which is pretend marriage). She (what I consider to be a strong Christian) said "Why? This way they still have that option to leave if they wanted to." Which shocked me coming from her. I told her, "But they are already acting like they are married. A piece of paper won't make much of a difference." She told me, "Well if they had the conviction that co-habiting is wrong they wouldn't do it." But I know that isn't true since there are plenty of Christians that do the very same thing, even if they know it's wrong. It's called weakness (in that state peer-pressure doesn't help). Just because someone can't overcome something doesn't make it right.

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by philosophizer
You're one to talk. :chuckle:

Rolf Ernst
September 15th, 2004, 09:32 AM
Yeah, homeschooling robs children because it teaches them to read and think. The government schools are doing all they can to prevent their students from being deprived like that by deliberately dumbing them down, drugging them, and making sure they get a good close look at the violence and evil in the world by bringing both of them into the school. That way they won't be culturally deprived or shocked when they see drugs and sex in society and murder on the streets after they graduate with a diploma they can't read.

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Yeah, homeschooling robs children because it teaches them to read and think. The government schools are doing all they can to prevent their students from being deprived like that by deliberately dumbing them down, drugging them, and making sure they get as good close look at the violence and evil in the world by bringing both of them into the school. That way they won't be culturally deprived or shocked when they see murder on the streets after they graduate with a diploma they can't read. NOW YOU'RE TALKING! :rolleyes:

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Rolf Ernst
Yeah, homeschooling robs children because it teaches them to read and think. The government schools are doing all they can to prevent their students from being deprived like that by deliberately dumbing them down, drugging them, and making sure they get as good close look at the violence and evil in the world by bringing both of them into the school. That way they won't be culturally deprived or shocked when they see murder on the streets after they graduate with a diploma they can't read. When did all this start, exactly?

I graduated HS in 1983, and I never experienced anything like that the whole time I was in school, and I was in a big inner city school in Alabama (second only to Mississippi in terms of crappy schools.).

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Crow

I met ebenz's kid and Christine and Elaine a few months ago. They weren't nutbars and they were 3 nice intelligent kids.

Then there are the kids my nephew hangs out with in his public school. And the get up they adopt over the summer. One, in particular, comes to mind....

Picture a somewhat dumpy kid of around 16. His hair is cut about 1/4 inch long all over his head except for 3 inch bangs which hang, lank and greasy, upon his pimple bespecked foreheand. The bangs are streaked blond (on black hair) in a manner resembling prison stripes. Blue spray paint or dye or who knows what has been applied to the rest of the hair in a somewhat dappled pattern. One eyebrow is pierced 3 times. He wears hoop earrings in both ears, and a zircon stud in his nose.

The t-shirt is black, sleveless, and conspicuously unclean. Eau de pitt is painfully evident.

He affects the layered look for his lower body. A layer of bare love handle, with a saucy hint of cleavage. A layer of exposed underwear. A layer of baggy pants, sagging in the manner of one who has loaded one's undergarment.

The sandals are of the style once known as "Ho Che Minh. The toenails are laquered black.

I guess it all depends on what you consider to be a nutbar. :chuckle: Crow, that was painfully hilarious! :darwinsm:

the Sibbie
September 15th, 2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Crow

Sometimes, I just have to look at them, even though they're gross as heck. It's like passing a really horrible car wreck--no matter how civilized you pretend to be, you just gotta look..... :darwinsm: !!!!

avatar382
September 15th, 2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by the Sibbie

That's not true. Even if you have the conviction, after being around people with lower standards, you convincing yourself that perhaps bending the rules a bit won't harm anything, even when you know in the back of your head that you shouldn't be doing this and later on regret giving in to temptation. I'll shamefully admit that I'm guilty of this. :(

Actually what you said resembles something my aunt recently said to me. I mentioned that my cousin should just get married already since they already live together (which is pretend marriage). She (what I consider to be a strong Christian) said "Why? This way they still have that option to leave if they wanted to." Which shocked me coming from her. I told her, "But they are already acting like they are married. A piece of paper won't make much of a difference." She told me, "Well if they had the conviction that co-habiting is wrong they wouldn't do it." But I know that isn't true since there are plenty of Christians that do the very same thing, even if they know it's wrong. It's called weakness (in that state peer-pressure doesn't help). Just because someone can't overcome something doesn't make it right.

I think we all have that weakness. It's part of being human.

If you fell to temptation, ask yourself - what tempted you? Your body? Or the influence of your friends?

I see your point that the influence of others can make it harder to resist the desires of the body, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the desires of the body that is the prime motivator. I've never met anyone who has sex solely because it's socially "cool". I believe the converse is true: Being sexually active is socially "cool" because sex is something that is desirable for (most) people.

It seems as it takes a powerful motivator to willingly abstain from what are biologically wired to do. For some people (myself :ha: ) a lack of a partner, or waiting for a partner to be willing, is quite the motivator. For others, religious conviction does the trick...

Christine
September 15th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Well, I'm saying it now. Christine, you have been very disrespectful in your attitude towards SOTK.
Brandon, I realize that when it comes to education (homeschooling VS. public-schooling) we are of differing views. Put our differences aside for a moment and read what I said and what SOTK said. If you were not of the same mindset he is, would you think me disrespectful?

ebenz47037
September 15th, 2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Brandon, I realize that when it comes to education (homeschooling VS. public-schooling) we are of differing views. Put our differences aside for a moment and read what I said and what SOTK said. If you were not of the same mindset he is, would you think me disrespectful?

Christine, you and I agree about homeschooling vs. public schooling and I think you were very disrespectful to SOTK here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=590366#post590366). IMHO, there's no call for that at all.

SOTK
September 15th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Christine

SOTK, the "others" you refer to our yourself and Firechyld. Unless I've forgotten someone, there was no one else saying that I was being disrespectful.


SINNED How? By supposedly disrespecting you???


I have not changed. Perhaps your outlook on me has. Do I have some growing up to do, sure, but I'm not sure it's in the areas you think it is. My parents (the ones that matter here) see nothing wrong with what I do.


SOTK, you refer back quite a bit to the "other thread." Have you read our dialouge there lately? I asked you questions that were short and to the point. I could have been taken as being "curt" but I fail to see how I was disrespectful. However, the way you came at me, just because I asked you a few questions was quite strong. By the way, my father has cautioned me about how I debate with adults, such as yourself, who are older than me. He has told me to be respectful and courteous, but that is not to prevent me from debating with them or telling them they are wrong. How are you defining disrespectful?

Christine,

You either don't get it or you don't care. Personally, I think it's the latter. Either way, I really don't have much else to discuss with you. As long as you remain unrepentant, I don't see much need for us to continue to dialogue.

SOTK

P.S. My 10 year old read what you wrote in the other thread and wanted to know why you talked to me like that. I wonder why she could pick up on your disrespectful attitude and you can't??

Lucky
September 15th, 2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

Yes, all this from a room full of experts in here. :yawn: I noticed most of you are parents. :rolleyes:
SOTK uses the :rolleyes: smilie.

Originally posted by Christine

He doesn't think someone's qualified to speak on an issue unless they've "been there, done that." :rolleyes:
Christine uses the :rolleyes: smilie.



Date of birth issues (elder/youngin') aside, neither party was considerably more disrespectful than the other. But, I am biased, I like both SOTK and Christine, and hate to see any of them bellyache over this. Hopefully we'll all remember this is a "bring your thick-skin" kind of board and move on.

:noid:

Christine
September 15th, 2004, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Christine, you and I agree about homeschooling vs. public schooling and I think you were very disrespectful to SOTK here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=590366#post590366). IMHO, there's no call for that at all.
:nori: I have respect for you and your opinions. However, I believe :lucky: already pointed out why I don't see that as being disrespectful. FYI, if it's the smilie ( :rolleyes: ) that gets you, I did consider leaving it out, but since SOTK used it, I thought "why not."

Christine
September 15th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by SOTK

Christine,

You either don't get it or you don't care. Personally, I think it's the latter. Either way, I really don't have much else to discuss with you. As long as you remain unrepentant, I don't see much need for us to continue to dialogue.
I don't see much need for continued dialogue either, but you're the one that's jumping in every time I start a homeschooling discussion. Oh, and I'm not unrepentant. If there was something to repent from, I would repent.



P.S. My 10 year old read what you wrote in the other thread and wanted to know why you talked to me like that. I wonder why she could pick up on your disrespectful attitude and you can't??
Either you're not telling all that your daughter said, or the girl didn't see it as disrespectful. You don't quote her as saying I was disrespectful. It could be that your daughter wondered why someone was questioning her fathers beliefs. I know if I was her age I would probably assume my father was right, and would wonder why someone would question him. Try showing her other debates with other people you've been involved in on TOL and she if she doesn't have the same reaction ("Why are they talking to you like that?")

Christine
September 15th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Lucky
Date of birth issues (elder/youngin') aside, neither party was considerably more disrespectful than the other. But, I am biased, I like both SOTK and Christine, and hate to see any of them bellyache over this. Hopefully we'll all remember this is a "bring your thick-skin" kind of board and move on.

I have no intention of "bellyaching" over this, :lucky: However, if it continues to come up, I feel I should defend myself. :)

ebenz47037
September 15th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Christine

:nori: I have respect for you and your opinions. However, I believe :lucky: already pointed out why I don't see that as being disrespectful. FYI, if it's the smilie ( :rolleyes: ) that gets you, I did consider leaving it out, but since SOTK used it, I thought "why not."

Christine, I don't have any more or less respect for you. It had nothing to do with the smilie. It was what you said. In a way, it's funny because I usually tell :jessilu: that it's pretty much the way she says something and not what she says. In this case, it was what you said, not how you said it.

I asked SOTK what he meant by his comment. And, you decided to tell me what you thought. And, as I told you in my PM, if it hadn't been for the stuff I'm going through with my mom right now, I probably wouldn't have said a word. I've kept my opinion to myself throughout this whole thing with you and SOTK until now.

I care very deeply for both you and SOTK. You need to realize that it's not your job to convince him that he should homeschool his kids. The way you've been going about trying to convince him of the error of his ways is obviously not working. If anything, it's turning him further against homeschooling.

In this case, I think you need to learn a little tact. :) In my opinion, what you said was disrespectful to SOTK. I know you (and others) don't see it that way. I watched the whole thing between you and SOTK in the other thread as well. I noticed that he didn't start getting disrespectful of you until you wouldn't lay off telling him that he was wrong, under any circumstances, for sending his children to public school. It's not your call, Christine. It's his.

He felt that your harping on him about homeschooling after he told you that it was his decision was disrespectful. You, obviously, don't think it is disrespectful to tell an adult parent how to raise his children.

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

SOTK uses the :rolleyes: smilie.

Christine uses the :rolleyes: smilie.



Date of birth issues (elder/youngin') aside, neither party was considerably more disrespectful than the other. But, I am biased, I like both SOTK and Christine, and hate to see any of them bellyache over this. Hopefully we'll all remember this is a "bring your thick-skin" kind of board and move on.

:noid:

Lucky's right.

I've briefly researched this 'feud' [:chuckle:] and I don't see a problem.

I am a Homeschool StepDad and appreciate what it takes to homeschool children, but SOTK made a valid point when he said that some homeschoolers overtly attack the public school system and attack the parents of children in Public schools. Some parents don't homeschool for any number of reasons, that doesn't mean they should be derided.

There is nothing wrong with vehemently disagreeing with each other, God knows I don't have a problem with using strong, condecending language, but I don't think there is any reason for either SOTK or Christine to hold a grudge. This is 'lightweight' compared to a lot of other arguments I've seen at TOL.

Trust me! :angel:

Move on to the next topic, don your thick skin and let it rip!

:BillyBob:

Lighthouse
September 15th, 2004, 08:04 PM
I'm beginning to rethink my stance on the academics of homeschooling being better.

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

I'm beginning to rethink my stance on the academics of homeschooling being better.

What are you talking about, Gerald was Publically schooled!!! :freak:

Yorzhik
September 15th, 2004, 09:55 PM
I'm not necessarily implying that it has anything to do with Public Education. Christine knows what I'm talking about. The comment was meant towards her, obviously, and not you. My kids attitude and behaviorisms come from my wife and I and our instruction of the Bible. In other words, they don't need homeschooling to be brought up right in Christ.
My comment had little to do with your discussion with Christine. I was talking about your kids in public school. They will have respect for their elders despite their public school training, not because of it. Did you read what John Gatto had to say? The evidence is compelling.


Shame?? You ought to be ashamed of yourself for even stooping to such a ridiculous and hurtful remark!
The man doth protest too much, methinks; "ridiculous and hurtful remark!"? C'mon, it wasn't that bad. Your kids are in danger, you should reconsider. But I'll admit that shaming you into the correct position may not be the best tactic. However, please listen to sound reason and remove your kids from public school.


My family is quite happy with our decisions regarding education...
Then you don't understand the danger your children are in.


... and we do not require nor want your service.
I see you no problem dishing it out. Why can't you take it?


Instead, what we should have is your support, brotherly love, and acceptance.
I should support the destruction of your children with brotherly love and acceptance? Now that really upsets me. If someone told you to accept a mother murdering her children with "brotherly love", wouldn't you be incensed at that suggestion?


Obviously, that's too much to ask of you. Kindly reserve your "shame" for yourself.
It's not too much to ask. Just convince me that public schools don't destroy kids as the mountains of evidence so far shows they do. And BTW, there is no shame in being on the side with the greatest evidence, so why do you suggest that I reserve my shame for myself?

Lighthouse
September 15th, 2004, 10:17 PM
I was publicly schooled as well, but I know the difference between "are" and "our." As do many of my frineds who were in public school. And I know kids from public school who don't. As well as some other things. And I have noticed that there are the same differences in homeschooled kids, as well. So I'm not sure what to think anymore.

SOTK
September 16th, 2004, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

My comment had little to do with your discussion with Christine. I was talking about your kids in public school. They will have respect for their elders despite their public school training, not because of it. Did you read what John Gatto had to say? The evidence is compelling.


The man doth protest too much, methinks; "ridiculous and hurtful remark!"? C'mon, it wasn't that bad. Your kids are in danger, you should reconsider. But I'll admit that shaming you into the correct position may not be the best tactic. However, please listen to sound reason and remove your kids from public school.


Then you don't understand the danger your children are in.


I see you no problem dishing it out. Why can't you take it?


I should support the destruction of your children with brotherly love and acceptance? Now that really upsets me. If someone told you to accept a mother murdering her children with "brotherly love", wouldn't you be incensed at that suggestion?


It's not too much to ask. Just convince me that public schools don't destroy kids as the mountains of evidence so far shows they do. And BTW, there is no shame in being on the side with the greatest evidence, so why do you suggest that I reserve my shame for myself?

Look, the problem with most Public Schools is not necessarily the School. It's parents. Sure, there are bad school administrators and there are bad teachers. Some Public Schools in some states and in some cities are probably terrible, however, the success of a child's education isn't completely dependent upon the school, the teacher, or the administrators. The success of the child's education is dependent upon the active involvement of the parents in their children's lives.

If a kid fails, it's because his parents let him fail. Most schools offer solid curriculum and most teachers are good teachers. In fact, most teachers have my sincere respect. My dad is a teacher, my grandmother was a teacher, and I have three aunts and one cousin who are teachers. What a fantastic job! Yes, they get paid for this job, but they are also being of service. They need support from their communities and from their classes' parents, because it is a big job. If they fail, it's because their classes' parents failed them. It always goes back to the parents. If a child is struggling, the parent needs to step in. If a parent wants their child to learn more on a subject, than the parent needs to step in.

Speaking of parental involvement, my family is Christian. We are raising our children as Christians. They are involved in our Church, go to Sunday School, choir, Awana, and are taught the Bible by their parents. As I'm sure you do, we parent with God and His Word in mind. Our kids are taught to have faith and to lean on Him. Forgive me for saying this, but I sometimes wonder how much faith you have in your children and in God by how much some of you homeschoolers fear Public Education. Sure, some things at school are different than what is taught at home. They experience different schools of thought and meet different children who are raised differently. You fear this. I can see it in your words. I just don't. I really don't think it confuses them as much as you would have us Christian Public School supporters believe. In fact, I've seen the opposite. I think it strengthens the Christian child's faith as well as provides opportunites for growth, for compassion, for realistic questions, for witnessing, and for love.

So, danger? My kids are only in danger if I abandon them from my involvement in their education.......from their lives. What do you think, Yorzhic, Christian familes who choose public education are not involved? What do you think.....that we just have them go to school and call it good? No, we most certainly don't. My wife volunteers in our kids classes and I visit often. Besides this, there are huge amounts of time spent with our kids and their homework as well as our own brand or twist on what they have learned. A lot of you "Christian" homeschoolers attempt to paint the average Christian public schoolers as stupid and uninvolved.....that we are monsters for sending our kids to Public School.

See, this is why I get so upset with Christians like you. You aren't any better than the dysfunctional organized religion type Christians that I have chosen to stay away from for so long. You seem to have it in your head that if a Christian doesn't do something which you think is Christian we aren't Christian. I know, I know.....you haven't said that, but that's what I perceive to come next. Christine came dangerously close to that and might have well said it. It's in her words and it's in yours. It's in a lot of posters I see at TOL who go out of their way to blast Public Education and any Christian who chooses to not completely agree that Homeschooling is the only option. Case in point; you just attempted to paint an even worse picture of me by comparing my support of public education with abortion....murder. That I'm causing the destruction of my kids like I would if I aborted them! You're sick, and I feel sorry for you.

You have done nothing but convince me that I have made the right decision and as Nori has warned....... pushed me even further away from ever considering homeschooling, or at the very least, supporting it. In fact, other than Nori and a few other homeschoolers I respect at TOL and in my own life, I'm beginning to have a low opinion of most of you.

There.....that's more than I was gonna post and more than you deserve. This all started because I stated that it was "okay" to believe in other options besides homeschool. I was attacked....not the other way around. In fact, I have stated from the beginning that it's a personal decision. A parent's decision.....a decision which is none of your business and none of mine. If you take anything away from this argument, I hope you take away that. As I have said before, homeschoolers are entitled to their opinions. In the future, I just hope some of you learn to "sell" it in a different way. Obviously, attempting to demonize us isn't gonna work.

SOTK

Christine
September 16th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Christine, I don't have any more or less respect for you. It had nothing to do with the smilie. It was what you said. In a way, it's funny because I usually tell :jessilu: that it's pretty much the way she says something and not what she says. In this case, it was what you said, not how you said it.
:nori:
I hope you don't think that comment was spurned just by SOTK's question/comments to you. I said that based on the comments of SOTK to me in the other thread, and based on the way he treated me when we were discussing literature once. SOTK acts like you shouldn't be critical of something (be it school, literature, etc) unless you've read the book, been through school, etc. I agree that with somethings, experience is good. If I was going to tell SOTK how to fix his car, it'd be best if I'd done that before, but if I was going to tell him why not to read Playboy, I don't think it's necessary for me to have read it. The same, IMO, applies here. It is not necessary for me to have attended public school, considered sending children to public school, etc in order for me to know how wrong and evil they really are. Of course, I have facts and evidence to back up my stance, just not personal experience.




I care very deeply for both you and SOTK. You need to realize that it's not your job to convince him that he should homeschool his kids. The way you've been going about trying to convince him of the error of his ways is obviously not working. If anything, it's turning him further against homeschooling.
As I told you in my response to your PM :nori: I am not trying to "boss" SOTK, raise his kids, or anything else of the kind. I am debating homeschooling VS public schooling with SOTK, not attacking him, or his family.


In this case, I think you need to learn a little tact. :) In my opinion, what you said was disrespectful to SOTK. I know you (and others) don't see it that way. I watched the whole thing between you and SOTK in the other thread as well. I noticed that he didn't start getting disrespectful of you until you wouldn't lay off telling him that he was wrong, under any circumstances, for sending his children to public school. It's not your call, Christine. It's his.
I wouldn't lay off under any circumstances????? What are you talking about, I walked away from that thread refusing to even respond to him because he had such a bad attitude. :confused:


He felt that your harping on him about homeschooling after he told you that it was his decision was disrespectful. You, obviously, don't think it is disrespectful to tell an adult parent how to raise his children.
:nori: Again, I'm not telling him how to raise his children. It's his job to do, and his decisions to make. If he jumps in to homeschooling threads on TOL, and tells homeschoolers such as myself some of his views, he can expect those views on education to be challenged. I'm not personally attacking him or undermining his authority as a parent, I'm merely involved in a discussion on TOL, which happens to be on homeschooling. :)

Lighthouse
September 16th, 2004, 11:29 PM
Comparing Playboy to public school? :rolleyes:

Lucky
September 16th, 2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Comparing Playboy to public school? :rolleyes:
You totally missed the point.

Lighthouse
September 17th, 2004, 12:31 AM
I got the point Lucky. I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.

Turbo
September 17th, 2004, 05:34 AM
She didn't! :doh:

Christine just said that firsthand experience is not necessary to have a valid opinion or engage in a debate on either topic.

I would add that it's not fair to dismiss someone's views on public/homeschooling just because that person isn't a parent. That form of argument is similar to when pro-aborts say that men shouldn't speak out against abortion because they can't get pregnant, or that women who have never experienced a "crisis pregnancy" are in no position to condemn abortion.

I am NOT saying that sending your kids to public school is the moral equivalent of abortion. But hopefully we all agree that abortion is wrong and no one here would not to me, Christine, lighthouse, or SOTK speaking out against abortion regardless of the pro-abort's preference that we keep silent.

SOTK, I've been meaning to give you a call about this. (My computer's keyboard is messed up so I haven't been posting much.) We are to love our neighbor and hold back those who are wandering toward the slaughter, and in Christine's mind that is what she is doing. Christine believes that sending kids to public school is wrong and endangers kids, and you disagree. You two can debate who is right and who is mistaken if you want, but telling Christine and others (including myself) that we should stay silent because we are not parents is off-base.

Like I said, I was planning on calling you about this, but I'd decided to post it here in hopes of making Christine's point more clear to lighthouse. (Deja vu, eh? ;))

Delmar
September 17th, 2004, 05:36 AM
I don't think she was. She was using one truth to demonstrate another. That you don't have to wallow in the mud to know it will get you dirty!

Christine
September 17th, 2004, 07:20 AM
If anyone is still following the original topic ;) , here is a good rebuttal article of the first post on this thread. :)

http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~wright/boyce.htm

Yorzhik
September 17th, 2004, 11:38 AM
lighthouse wrote
Comparing Playboy to public school?
-and-


lighthouse wrote
I got the point Lucky. I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.
You're so far off base you sound like Hilston... only not as smart.

Yorzhik
September 17th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Christine wrote:
...here is a good rebuttal article of the first post on this thread.
Not very well done. But definitely done better than the letter by Boyce!

Perhaps the person that did the rebuttal follows the martial arts philosophy of never being too much better than your opponent.

Gerald
September 17th, 2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik
Perhaps the person that did the rebuttal follows the martial arts philosophy of never being too much better than your opponent.
:noway:
Which martial art espouses that philosophy?

Christine
September 17th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Yorzhik
You're so far off base you sound like Hilston... only not as smart.
Yorzhik, what is this supposed to mean?

Turbo
September 17th, 2004, 01:03 PM
It means Sunday is going to be a blast! :D ;)

Christine
September 17th, 2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

It means Sunday is going to be a blast! :D ;)
Um, Dad hasn't let us know yet whether we can go or not, :turbo:

Turbo
September 17th, 2004, 01:26 PM
:shocked:

Christine
September 17th, 2004, 01:28 PM
We've asked though :D

Yorzhik
September 17th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Which martial art espouses that philosophy?
I heard it from a martial arts teacher. IIRC, the reason behind it is that you don't want to teach your enemies your great secrets, and you don't want to gloat in front of an enemy because that weakens you in your next encounter. Makes sense to me in a Sun Tzu sort of way.

Lighthouse
September 17th, 2004, 11:18 PM
I DIDN'T THINK CHRISTINE WAS EQUATING PORN TO PUBLIC SCHOOL! :mad::madmad:

I just think porn was a bad choice to make her point.

Turbo-
SOTK was pointing out that Christine had no business condemning him for sending his children to public school. Not that she didn't have a basis for advocating public school was bad.

firechyld
September 17th, 2004, 11:45 PM
The basic points raised by the author are valid... they just become less rational when they're taken to the extreme, as they were in this instance.

The exact same statement can be used against those in the pro-homeschooling camp... the basic points are valid, but they just appear silly when taken to the extreme. Unfortunately, this is common.

What I'm getting at is that there clearly exist benefits to each schooling system. However, the prescence of these positives is NOT proof of the opposing system's negatives. One system being good does not automatically mean that the other is bad.

The author unjustly condemns homeschooling. But I think many involved in this thread have done public schooling the same injustice. Neither system is guaranteed to fail, and that's a simple fact.

Yorzhik
September 17th, 2004, 11:54 PM
quote:
lighthouse wrote

Comparing Playboy to public school?


I just don't think comparing public school to porn is viable.
Then lighthouse wrote:

I DIDN'T THINK CHRISTINE WAS EQUATING PORN TO PUBLIC SCHOOL!
Then at admit that you used a poor choice of words. Your statements could easily be taken as you accusing Christine of making porn and public school comparable, at the very least.

Lighthouse
September 18th, 2004, 02:54 AM
Comparing does not mean the same as equating, to me. I do understand that what I said could be taken wrong, as it was, but what Christine said could have as well. Anyone could have believed that she was equating them. But I am the only that pointed that out. But honestly, I just don't care. The bottom line is that Christine is wrong about public school. And I was wrong about homeschooling being better, in academics.

Christine
September 18th, 2004, 04:24 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Comparing does not mean the same as equating, to me. I do understand that what I said could be taken wrong, as it was, but what Christine said could have as well. Anyone could have believed that she was equating them. But I am the only that pointed that out. But honestly, I just don't care. The bottom line is that Christine is wrong about public school. And I was wrong about homeschooling being better, in academics.
Lighthouse, would you please explain what you mean of what I put in bold? :)

Lighthouse
September 18th, 2004, 07:55 PM
If you really want me to.

I always saw public school's biggest problem being that most teachers didn't care enough to be of any use. And because of that, most students didn't learn much of anything...and those of us who did only learned because we paid attention the first time and taught ourselves. I figured that a parent who cared enough to teach their own kids would be a better teacher than public school teachers. But I have seen homeschooled children use words, when writing, such as, "our," when the proper word is "are," or "seens," when the correct word is "scenes." So it seems that's not just a public school problem.

Christine
September 19th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

If you really want me to.

I always saw public school's biggest problem being that most teachers didn't care enough to be of any use. And because of that, most students didn't learn much of anything...and those of us who did only learned because we paid attention the first time and taught ourselves. I figured that a parent who cared enough to teach their own kids would be a better teacher than public school teachers. But I have seen homeschooled children use words, when writing, such as, "our," when the proper word is "are," or "seens," when the correct word is "scenes." So it seems that's not just a public school problem.
Ahhh. Sometimes homeschoolers, such as myself :o , simply get in a hurry with their typing and aren't thinking about proper forms of words, etc. What they (and I) need to do is better proofread before we submit the "final" copy. Do some homeschoolers have educational problems, as we here of with public school students? Sure, but not as many homeschoolers have problems, because Dad and Mom can see where they need work early on. A teacher with a classroom full of students does not always recognize the signs.

Turbo
September 19th, 2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

If you really want me to.

I always saw public school's biggest problem being that most teachers didn't care enough to be of any use. And because of that, most students didn't learn much of anything...and those of us who did only learned because we paid attention the first time and taught ourselves. I figured that a parent who cared enough to teach their own kids would be a better teacher than public school teachers. But I have seen homeschooled children use words, when writing, such as, "our," when the proper word is "are," or "seens," when the correct word is "scenes." So it seems that's not just a public school problem. It sounds like you're basing your conclusions on a few anecdotal cases. Wouldn't it make more sense to look for statistical comparisons of homeschoolers vs. public schoolers?

firechyld
September 19th, 2004, 10:24 PM
It sounds like you're basing your conclusions on a few anecdotal cases. Wouldn't it make more sense to look for statistical comparisons of homeschoolers vs. public schoolers?

It would, but it's difficult to get an accurate comparison. The data pools are so dramatically different in size that it skews the results.

SOTK
September 19th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

She didn't! :doh:

Christine just said that firsthand experience is not necessary to have a valid opinion or engage in a debate on either topic.

I would add that it's not fair to dismiss someone's views on public/homeschooling just because that person isn't a parent. That form of argument is similar to when pro-aborts say that men shouldn't speak out against abortion because they can't get pregnant, or that women who have never experienced a "crisis pregnancy" are in no position to condemn abortion.

I am NOT saying that sending your kids to public school is the moral equivalent of abortion. But hopefully we all agree that abortion is wrong and no one here would not to me, Christine, lighthouse, or SOTK speaking out against abortion regardless of the pro-abort's preference that we keep silent.

SOTK, I've been meaning to give you a call about this. (My computer's keyboard is messed up so I haven't been posting much.) We are to love our neighbor and hold back those who are wandering toward the slaughter, and in Christine's mind that is what she is doing. Christine believes that sending kids to public school is wrong and endangers kids, and you disagree. You two can debate who is right and who is mistaken if you want, but telling Christine and others (including myself) that we should stay silent because we are not parents is off-base.

Like I said, I was planning on calling you about this, but I'd decided to post it here in hopes of making Christine's point more clear to lighthouse. (Deja vu, eh? ;))

Turbo,

I wasn't initially going to reply to your post, because I had decided to bow out of this thread and argument. It was painfully obvious to me, and I think some others as well, that this wasn't going any where. I have reservations that what I am about to say will probably go unheard as well. Be that as it may, I wanted to try posting one more time in the hopes that my point or points will be clear.

First of all, I have never fully stated nor felt that people's opinions regarding certain subjects should be dismissed due to the fact that they haven't had firsthand experience with said subject, however, with certain subjects I believe it can sure weaken that person's argument when they haven't had firsthand experience. Also, it can make them look like a jerk especially when they begin to pass judgement on me. Abortion, I believe, is a moral issue and a poor example to use when trying to show that a male can have an opinion on this. Abortion is a far cry away from the subject of homeschooling and Public Education. Also, statistics are much more concrete when using them as evidence to bolster an opinion on the destructive nature of abortion. I don't believe this is necessarily the case with the Public Education debate.

For example, do you know the success rate or statistics regarding the specific Elementary School my children attend in the community in which I live in the Northwest? Have you been to that school? Have you met with my children's teacher? Have you volunteered in that classroom? Have you met with that Elementary School's Principal? Do you know what their curriculum is? Did you know that this school has offered to let my oldest child skip a grade because she is at a higher learning level? Did you know that this School District has honor classes at a different school for kids who are learning at an accelerated rate? Did you know that this School District has math labs and individualized reading programs for kids that are having a hard time keeping up? Furthermore, were you aware that my middle child had reading difficulties last year but with the help of her parents and her one on one reading teacher she overcame this problem?

The answer to all these questions is a resounding "NO", yet you and others have an extremely negative opinion on Public Education because you have read statistics and apparently know the truth. This is what I have meant by generalizations. You guys can not account for specific parents, specific schools, specific school districts, specific cities, specific states, and specific kids. Some of you, who don't have kids yet, may have investigated your communities school district and local schools, but I am willing to wager that a lot of you haven't. Most of you have no idea what they are like nor what issues may arise because you are not there yet! I AM there! I am a parent! I have been there through every step of the way. I know exactly what Public Education is like, because I have experienced it from a parent's perspective. Have you?

Furthermore, I would never pass judgement on another parent because they chose a different educational option for their children. Who am I to do such a thing? I am not them and their kids are not my kids. I have said from the beginning that there is nothing wrong with homeschooling. As I have told Nori, heck, I would homeschool if I ever detected the slightest hint of inadequacy in my children's education. I have no problem with Christine, Nori, Crow, Poly, you, or anybody else feeling that homeschooling is the best option for a child's education. That is not my issue. Let me repeat, that is NOT my issue. You are all entitled to your opinions, however, when you begin to pass judgement on me or blast others who also have chosen the Public School route without knowing all the facts, you are wong! It's arrogant, inappropriate, and disrespectful. There are more appropriate ways to convince people and more appropriate ways to communicate a position.

You mentioned that Christine says that sending kids to public schools endangers them and that I say they don't. I hope you see now that I don't think it is as simple as that nor do I think that all Public Schools are safe or that all Public Schools are dangerous. This goes back to my previous statements that whether or not a parent sends their kids to Public Schools is a personal decision. Hopefully, a decision which the parents investigate extensively. The bottom line is that Christine has no idea whether or not the school in which I send my kids is dangerous or not. Neither do you. You guys know nothing about this school nor nothing about my kids. Since you are not parents nor a member of my family, your opinion about my decision to send my kids to Public School matters little to me. Hopefully, especially given the manner in which these opinions were communicated as well, you can see why I would be inclined to "dismiss" them. This subject went from being a matter of debate to something personal. Turbo, I can't understand why you don't see that.

As far as your comments about "holding the neighbor back from the slaughter", sorry, but I find that paranoid as well as a scare tactic meant to "push" me into your side of the argument. Hint: It doesn't work. Instead, it pisses me off. Again, there are more appropriate ways to communicate your positions. I know this because there have been a few posters, Nori is one, who has expressed their opinion about homeschooling in a much more conducive and non-judgemental way.

You may call me if you like, Turbo, but my feelings and opinion will be the same.

SOTK

Lighthouse
September 19th, 2004, 11:50 PM
Right on, SOTK!
:thumb:

Christine-
I think that private tutoring is the best thing, academically...because I believe that the teacher should be a great teacher, who is educated in the area of education. And can work more closely with the students. omeschooling usually implies that one or more of the parents does the teaching. I do not think that is always best, because parents are not always good teachers. Even one on one. My dad used to try to help my stepsister with her homework. He was no help, because she didn't get it...no matter how hard he tried. He got frustrated. He was not the right person to teach her. And I don't think he would have been any good at teaching me. My mother doesn't think she is very smart, so I don't think she would have felt competent enough to teach me, or my brothers. And I think the best thing that happened to me was that I went to private Christian schools for four years, pre-school through second grade.

ebenz47037
September 20th, 2004, 01:42 AM
SOTK is right about public schools. I talked to him and his wife on the phone last night. I've made my judgements on public schools due to my experience with them as a parent. I do not take anyone's word for it.

Without knowing anything about his childrens' school, I told him and his wife that my opinion is that homeschooling is the best thing for children. And, I highly encouraged him and his wife to do so, if they can.

Even after they told me what their childrens' school is like, I encouraged them to homeschool, based on my own experiences with public schools as a parent. As a parent of a fourteen year old, I have yet to see one good public school. That doesn't mean they don't exist. It just makes it harder for me to believe that they exist.

Lighthouse
September 20th, 2004, 01:45 AM
I've encouraged him to do the same, but mostly on a financial basis. Because private schools are too expensive.

ebenz47037
September 20th, 2004, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

I've encouraged him to do the same, but mostly on a financial basis. Because private schools are too expensive.

Yep. I speak from experience there as well. :)

Poly
September 20th, 2004, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse



omeschooling usually implies that one or more of the parents does the teaching. I do not think that is always best, because parents are not always good teachers.
Parents are made to think that after potty training their child, teaching him to walk and talk, teaching him his ABCs, to eat with utensils along with instructing him in many other important areas in his early childhood development, suddenly they are too stupid to continue teaching him after he turns 5 and have no other choice but to let somebody else do it. Nobody knows my child better than I do. Nobody knows his learning style better than I do. I fail to find in scripture where God tells us to be sure and let somebody else instruct our children after they reach a certain age because we will no longer be able to do it. I'll be the first one to admit that when my children reached high school it took much more studying on my part in certain subjects in order to get the job done but it is getting done. It's up to the parents to do whatever necessary in making sure their child is learning what they feel is important in his development and preparing him to become a productive and responsible adult. And today there are other options if the parent is having real difficulty in instructing his/her child in certain areas. There are co-ops, tutors, video instructional tapes and homeschool groups where moms are willing to swap subjects with other moms who have an easier time teaching it.

I went to the high school that my kids would now be attending if they weren't being homeschooled. I know that they are getting a much better education at home.

firechyld
September 20th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Poly: Do you feel that there is any part of a high school curriculum that you would be completely unable to teach your child?

Lighthouse
September 20th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Poly, you just reaffirmed what I said.

Poly
September 21st, 2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by firechyld

Poly: Do you feel that there is any part of a high school curriculum that you would be completely unable to teach your child?
So far? No. But if that ends up being the case, there are other options I will have other than sending them to public schools.


Originally posted by lighthouse

Poly, you just reaffirmed what I said.

You mentioned that Parents aren't always the best teachers. You're reaffirming what I said if, in saying "not always" you're meaning, most of the time they are but if they aren't, they should seek out some of the other options I listed.

Christine
September 21st, 2004, 06:08 PM
Here is a very good article by Elizabeh Farah; all government education teaches false religion.

Pulling kids out of government schools, part 1

by Elizabeth Farah

© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com


My last column concluded with this charge (in part):

“All parents who are married and have no extraordinary circumstances to prevent them from doing so, should today remove their children from the government school system.?

I promised I would defend this “outrageous? statement – I’m going to address only one of many reasons in this column today.

Parents should take their kids out of government school because government education is not possible. "Government education" is an oxymoron. The object of teaching is the transmission of truth, which is reality. A synonym for the word “teach? is “indoctrinate.? Another good term is to “propagate? or “propagandize,? which is the teaching of any system of principles. You can see the problem I have with any government indoctrinating or propagandizing children. It is inherently immoral and un-American to charge the government with this responsibility.

Let’s next answer the question, “Why do we send children to school?? The correct answer is “to become educated.? We will define education in a minute, but first, let us examine incorrect answers to the question. If you said: babysitting, socialization, behavior modification, or “a place to go to until the child is an adult? your reasoning is wrong, but this perverted reasoning is the natural outcome of resting the role of educator in the hands of the government and it has replaced true education entirely today.

Now let's define education. The best definition is found in Webster’s 1828 dictionary (available on CD Rom from ShopNetDaily):

EDUCATION, n [Latin educatio] The bringing up, as of a child; instruction; formation of manners. Education comprehends [encompasses] all that series of instruction and discipline which is intended to enlighten the understanding, correct the temper, and form the manners and habits of youth, and fit them for usefulness in their future stations. To give children a good education in manners, arts and science, is important; to give them a religious education is indispensable; and an immense responsibility rests on parents and guardians who neglect these duties.

Is Noah Webster correct? Yes he is. It is not a matter of opinion; it is the truth which is knowable. Before we go further, let's look at the definition given by today’s Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary Online:

Education
1 a: the action or process of educating or of being educated; also : a stage of such a process b : the knowledge and development resulting from an educational process [a man of little education]
2 : the field of study that deals mainly with methods of teaching and learning in schools

That sound you hear is Noah Webster spinning in his grave. This is the dictionary your government school children and teachers use. You see, someone has to decide which books and reference materials are used in the schools. They are selected by the state. The history books, philosophy books, science books are all selected by the government! Even the definition of words becomes a de facto function of government. This is most appalling because education is a decidedly religious activity. Why? All human endeavor is constrained, informed, defined and imprinted with the worldview of the individual or institution. And worldview is a belief system determined by religious belief. What is religious belief? It is defined by the answers given to a few questions:


What is the purpose of life?
What happens when we die?
How did life come into being?
Your answers to these questions determine how you approach every single endeavor of your life. All institutions have a worldview too, and it affects every single endeavor in which they engage.

Therefore, the simple act of defining the word “education? requires judgment (read worldview). OK you say, just don’t teach anything which requires worldview judgments. That is impossible; let's see why. Take history class as an example:

Student: Was Hitler right to kill Jews?
Teacher: No
Student: Why?
Teacher: Because it is wrong to kill innocent people.
Student: Why?
Teacher: Because everyone has the right to live!
Student: Why? [This is where it gets sticky. The answer is determined solely by your worldview – read, “religion?]
Teacher: Because God says so. [Now this is the correct answer – but we can’t talk about the reality of God in government schools so. …]

Teacher: Because it is against the law!
Student: Why?
Teacher: Because the government says so!
Student: What if the government says it is OK?
Teacher: But the government wouldn’t say that!
Student: The government of Germany did.

Conclusion: Because our system forbids government to teach morality, it cannot teach about the Holocaust. To take the concept of immorality out of the subject of the Holocaust is impossible without denying truth.

Education by definition requires the search for truth. Therefore government must teach about immorality. Which the government can’t do. Therefore, the government can’t teach.

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24156

Lighthouse
September 21st, 2004, 07:02 PM
That article has excellent points, Christine.

1PeaceMaker
September 21st, 2004, 07:23 PM
I just wanted to comment/ask, being a young mother who was partly homeschooled -

Is training up a child a part time or fulltime job?

We know if we train them up right, they will not depart from the right way.

Pr 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Christine
September 21st, 2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

That article has excellent points, Christine.
Thanks Lighthouse. The reason I posted it was that the author was showing how public education is a false religion, and anti-Christian. This would make it wrong to send children to public school, regardless of where you live, what school it is, etc. Would you like to see Part Two?

Lighthouse
September 21st, 2004, 08:20 PM
I was especially interested in the part about how "government education" is an oxymoron. I know I was miles ahead of the rest of the kids in my grade, when I entered public school, but [since the public school was too ignorant to figure that out] I got screwed.

firechyld
September 21st, 2004, 09:38 PM
The only reason any of you can think of for killing humans being wrong is "God said so"? You people scare me. And the "teacher" in the example is an idiot. I seriously doubt that scene would play out that way.

A quick question for homeschoolers: How does the homeschooling system prepare students for learning in a tertiary environment? Once a student hits university/college, they are going to have to know how to learn in a classroom environment. How do you deal with this when teaching a child in a homeschooling environment?

Lighthouse
September 21st, 2004, 10:01 PM
fc-
God never said it was wrong to kill another human being. He said it was wrong to kill an innocent human, but it is not wrong simply because He said it is wrong. It was wrong well before that. Basically, it is not wrong because God said it is wrong, but rather, God said it is wrong, because it is wrong.

firechyld
September 21st, 2004, 10:04 PM
God never said it was wrong to kill another human being. He said it was wrong to kill an innocent human, but it is not wrong simply because He said it is wrong. It was wrong well before that. Basically, it is not wrong because God said it is wrong, but rather, God said it is wrong, because it is wrong.

So why does the article imply that the "right" response to that question is "Because God said so"? That's just silly.

Lighthouse
September 21st, 2004, 10:06 PM
The person who wrote the article has some good points, but isn't right about everything. But, as you do with Planned Parenthood, we can't throw it all away based on one faulty premise.

ShadowMaid
September 21st, 2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by firechyld
A quick question for homeschoolers: How does the homeschooling system prepare students for learning in a tertiary environment? Once a student hits university/college, they are going to have to know how to learn in a classroom environment. How do you deal with this when teaching a child in a homeschooling environment?

Wow! That makes us sounds like we never experience outside life!

Those things that you mentioned don't seem like things that would take a long time to adapt to.

firechyld
September 21st, 2004, 10:43 PM
lighthouse..


The person who wrote the article has some good points, but isn't right about everything. But, as you do with Planned Parenthood, we can't throw it all away based on one faulty premise.


I'm not throwing away all her points. I'm throwing away that ridiculous scenario and the conclusions she drew from it.

Shadowmaid...


Wow! That makes us sounds like we never experience outside life!

I'm not talking about outside life. I'm talking about a classroom learning situation. If you go on to tertiary education, you ARE going to have to know how to deal with it.


Those things that you mentioned don't seem like things that would take a long time to adapt to.

They are. I've been in classroom schooling my whole life, and I still have trouble adapting to the slightly different model that is a university lecture theatre and tutorial group. How much harder is that going to be for a student who has never had to deal with a classroom situation?

Yorzhik
September 22nd, 2004, 12:46 PM
Look, the problem with most Public Schools is not necessarily the School.
Right, it's the government school system.


It's parents.
Wrong. If you understood anything about human nature, you would understand that when responsibility is taken where it was previously held by someone else, the person that held it before tends to relinquish their responsibility. If you want parents to be responsible, then don't advocate a system that allows the removal of parent's responsibility, which is what public school allows.


Sure, there are bad school administrators and there are bad teachers. Some Public Schools in some states and in some cities are probably terrible, however, the success of a child's education isn't completely dependent upon the school, the teacher, or the administrators. The success of the child's education is dependent upon the active involvement of the parents in their children's lives.
Right! The success of a child's education is dependent upon the active involvement of the parents in their children's lives! That's a great description for homeschooling. Why do you subject your children to government schools whose intent is to thwart your premise?


If a kid fails, it's because his parents let him fail.
That, and the government schools don't care if the kid fails, either. Read the book.


Most schools offer solid curriculum…
Except for the part where they teach the children they are slime that came to life by accident. And another part where they discourage phonics. And the other parts where teachers who teach bad things are rarely discouraged.


…and most teachers are good teachers.
This would only be true if teachers didn't know how bad the system was. They do know how bad it is, so they are culpable. We know this is true because:
1. My mother, a teacher in the late 50's early 60's recognized how bad the system was even in the "good" school districts, and the system certainly hasn't gotten better with age!
2. John Taylor Gatto chronicles the evidence, read about it here: http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/
3. The Thomas B. Fordham Institute tracks the percentage of public school teachers that send their kids to private school (Hint – the percentage is WWWWWAAAAAYYYYYY higher than the general population, even in rural districts)


In fact, most teachers have my sincere respect. My dad is a teacher, my grandmother was a teacher, and I have three aunts and one cousin who are teachers.
Now I see you have an emotional interest in saying public schools are good. I understand, but you should at least learn to temper your loyalties with some facts.


What a fantastic job! Yes, they get paid for this job, but they are also being of service. They need support from their communities and from their classes' parents, because it is a big job. If they fail, it's because their classes' parents failed them. It always goes back to the parents. If a child is struggling, the parent needs to step in. If a parent wants their child to learn more on a subject, than the parent needs to step in.
Patently wrong. See above.


Speaking of parental involvement, my family is Christian. We are raising our children as Christians. They are involved in our Church, go to Sunday School, choir, Awana, and are taught the Bible by their parents. As I'm sure you do, we parent with God and His Word in mind. Our kids are taught to have faith and to lean on Him.
Great. Your children might survive because you are doing so well with them when they are not in school. Just remember, they will survive because of your constant re-training, and in spite of their schooling.


Forgive me for saying this, but I sometimes wonder how much faith you have in your children and in God by how much some of you homeschoolers fear Public Education. Sure, some things at school are different than what is taught at home. They experience different schools of thought and meet different children who are raised differently. You fear this. I can see it in your words. I just don't. I really don't think it confuses them as much as you would have us Christian Public School supporters believe. In fact, I've seen the opposite. I think it strengthens the Christian child's faith as well as provides opportunites for growth, for compassion, for realistic questions, for witnessing, and for love.
At least you admit it takes faith to put one's children in harm's way. Frankly, I keep my kids out of danger. But I guess I'm funny that way.


So, danger? My kids are only in danger if I abandon them from my involvement in their education.......from their lives.
At least you admit that leaving kids on their own is dangerous. And especially because the evidence is clear that many wolves prowl the government schools systems hallways with impunity (even encouragement). And this, coupled with the fact that the only system that lets you leave-your-kids-and-forget-about-them is the government schools system. It's hard to do if you are private schooling, and almost impossible with homeschooling.


What do you think, Yorzhic, Christian familes who choose public education are not involved? What do you think.....that we just have them go to school and call it good? No, we most certainly don't. My wife volunteers in our kids classes and I visit often. Besides this, there are huge amounts of time spent with our kids and their homework as well as our own brand or twist on what they have learned. A lot of you "Christian" homeschoolers attempt to paint the average Christian public schoolers as stupid and uninvolved.....that we are monsters for sending our kids to Public School.
Just remember, they will survive because of your involvement, and in spite of the schooling they get in the government school system.


See, this is why I get so upset with Christians like you. You aren't any better than the dysfunctional organized religion type Christians that I have chosen to stay away from for so long. You seem to have it in your head that if a Christian doesn't do something which you think is Christian we aren't Christian. I know, I know.....you haven't said that, but that's what I perceive to come next.
That would only be because you are irrational and paranoid. Instead of understanding the compelling evidence presented to you for your own good; instead you stop your ears and scream pejoratives at those who disagree with you.


Christine came dangerously close to that and might have well said it. It's in her words and it's in yours. It's in a lot of posters I see at TOL who go out of their way to blast Public Education and any Christian who chooses to not completely agree that Homeschooling is the only option.
Anyone who's read this thread even superficially realizes that you are overstating the situation. Why do you overstate it? What are you afraid of? Possibilities include: your emotional attachment to teachers in your family, or you know you are putting your children at risk and don't want to realize your internal conflict, or both. You might even have another reason you haven't alluded to, but these are the only two you've mentioned so far.


Case in point; you just attempted to paint an even worse picture of me by comparing my support of public education with abortion....murder. That I'm causing the destruction of my kids like I would if I aborted them! You're sick, and I feel sorry for you.
I was using a bit of a generality there. Abortion doesn't kill all the kids that undergo the procedure, but that is the aim of abortion. So because that is the intent of abortion, we say, "don't have an abortion and destroy your children." even though not ALL children are sure to be murdered by abortion. In the same way, the intent of public schools is to harm your children, so we use the English literary convention of speaking of a part being the whole.

Your attempt to say that I'm equating abortion with public school when my intent to show that we should care for one another is clear and telling of your shrill extremist stance.


You have done nothing but convince me that I have made the right decision and as Nori has warned....... pushed me even further away from ever considering homeschooling, or at the very least, supporting it. In fact, other than Nori and a few other homeschoolers I respect at TOL and in my own life, I'm beginning to have a low opinion of most of you.
Good! I'm glad we are getting you to commit one way or the other. As God said, "I'd rather you be hot or cold."


There.....that's more than I was gonna post and more than you deserve. This all started because I stated that it was "okay" to believe in other options besides homeschool.
That's a lie, we've all stated there are more options than just homeshooling (although homeschooling is the best option). Tutoring and private school (if one chooses a good one) are good options as well. You didn't "stated that it was "okay" to believe in other options besides homeschool", you said that public school was a GOOD idea. And that deserves a rebuttle.


I was attacked....not the other way around. In fact, I have stated from the beginning that it's a personal decision. A parent's decision.....a decision which is none of your business and none of mine. If you take anything away from this argument, I hope you take away that. As I have said before, homeschoolers are entitled to their opinions. In the future, I just hope some of you learn to "sell" it in a different way. Obviously, attempting to demonize us isn't gonna work.

SOTK
I don't know about that SOTK. I'm mean, it seems that attacking you and demonizing you has resulted in one good thing… at least you seem to be solidly cold now.

And one more thing, it is my business to warn people that they are putting their kids in harm's way.

Christine
September 22nd, 2004, 01:26 PM
firechyld,

The "scenario and the conclusions" seem ridiculous to all those who ignore, reject, and defy God the Creator. Any vestige of morality and truth in these non-ordained institutions and reprobate people are borrowed, or stolen, capital from God's system of morality and truth. Only the Christian worldview is intelligible. All others, shall we say, are "just silly."

Christine's dad

Yorzhik
September 22nd, 2004, 03:35 PM
Hey, Christine's dad, glad to see you jump in here. And that's a great point you make, as well!

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by firechyld
A quick question for homeschoolers: How does the homeschooling system prepare students for learning in a tertiary environment? Once a student hits university/college, they are going to have to know how to learn in a classroom environment. How do you deal with this when teaching a child in a homeschooling environment?

And that may well change. I don't know about Aussieland, but there is a trend in the US for more and more schools to allow some of their courses to be taken online, and in some cases, one can earn their degree entirely online from a "traditional" school. People with GEDs are admitted to tertiary environments and do just fine. People leave educational institutions and enter the job force, which is nothing like school, and manage to learn.

I imagine if homeschoolers were all failing miserably in college and flunking out in droves, people wouldn't homeschool their kids, but that doesn't seem to be the case. They adjust just fine.

I've seen 60 year olds learn to use computers and the net, firechyld. Most people are pretty adaptable.

Poly
September 22nd, 2004, 03:56 PM
Hi Christine's dad! :wave:

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 04:07 PM
I went to over a dozen schools in my first 9 grades--a result of my family moving frequently. I adapted to everything from private schools to a private tutor to a huge inner city school to a small public school in the sticks. True, I didn't learn much of anything at school because my father also taught me at home and I tested out several grades ahead of my level throughout my class clown career. But when there was something new to learn in school, I did.

If a kid is so unadaptable that they cannot adapt to a new system of learning, then a public school grad could not adapt to college, as it is much different than high school. Nor could anyone make the transition from school to job, and we know that most do fine. There will always be some unadaptable people, firechyld, but I believe that is a personal quality, not a result of how one is educated.

firechyld
September 22nd, 2004, 06:56 PM
Christine's dad...


firechyld,

The "scenario and the conclusions" seem ridiculous to all those who ignore, reject, and defy God the Creator. Any vestige of morality and truth in these non-ordained institutions and reprobate people are borrowed, or stolen, capital from God's system of morality and truth. Only the Christian worldview is intelligible. All others, shall we say, are "just silly."

Christine's dad


Hrmmm. I can see where your daughter gets much of her attitude.

My point was that the author painted a highly inaccurate and unlikely picture of a classroom situation, and then proceeded to draw extreme conclusions from that example. That's all I meant by my statement... not that homeschooling is necessarily a bad choice.

Drawing those same conclusions from more realistic scenarios, or (even better!) from actual data, would not be as ridiculous as the example given.

Crow...


And that may well change. I don't know about Aussieland, but there is a trend in the US for more and more schools to allow some of their courses to be taken online, and in some cases, one can earn their degree entirely online from a "traditional" school. People with GEDs are admitted to tertiary environments and do just fine. People leave educational institutions and enter the job force, which is nothing like school, and manage to learn.

I imagine if homeschoolers were all failing miserably in college and flunking out in droves, people wouldn't homeschool their kids, but that doesn't seem to be the case. They adjust just fine.

I've seen 60 year olds learn to use computers and the net, firechyld. Most people are pretty adaptable.

I wasn't intending to imply that homeschooled kids will necessarily flunk out of college... just that they're on the back foot when it comes to adjusting to tertiary learning environments. I was wondering how homeschooling parents deal with that, if they deal with it at all.

It may not be a critical issue, but anything that disadvantages your kid should be addressed.

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by firechyld
I wasn't intending to imply that homeschooled kids will necessarily flunk out of college... just that they're on the back foot when it comes to adjusting to tertiary learning environments. I was wondering how homeschooling parents deal with that, if they deal with it at all.

It may not be a critical issue, but anything that disadvantages your kid should be addressed.

Most of the people I personally knew who had difficulty in college did so because they could not adjust to having to discipline themselves to study and pull material from text as opposed to having someone lecture it to them. They simply did not have the discipline to make themselves seek knowledge that was not lectured to them. Suddenly, instead of spending 40 ish hours a week in class, they only spent about 15.

Homeschoolers as a whole come to a tertiary school with more independent study skills, and I would suspect a bit more disciplined. I don't see this as being on the "back foot."

It's up to the parents which perceived advantage they desire for their kids.

firechyld
September 22nd, 2004, 07:31 PM
Most of the people I personally knew who had difficulty in college did so because they could not adjust to having to discipline themselves to study and pull material from text as opposed to having someone lecture it to them. They simply did not have the discipline to make themselves seek knowledge that was not lectured to them. Suddenly, instead of spending 40 ish hours a week in class, they only spent about 15.

Homeschoolers as a whole come to a tertiary school with more independent study skills, and I would suspect a bit more disciplined. I don't see this as being on the "back foot."

It's up to the parents which perceived advantage they desire for their kids.

Fair call. :)

Still... do we have any homeschooling parents around whose kids are university age, or near university age? I'd like to know if anyone has had some experience with this...

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by firechyld

Fair call. :)

Still... do we have any homeschooling parents around whose kids are university age, or near university age? I'd like to know if anyone has had some experience with this...

Christine is about 18--ask her.

I recently took courses on the net. Much nicer than getting out of my butt-ugly tore up garden clothes and making the commute. You lose out on some of the social aspects, but I can socialize plenty without school.

firechyld
September 22nd, 2004, 07:48 PM
Christine is about 18--ask her.


She's 16, and doesn't want to go on to further study.

Crow
September 22nd, 2004, 07:55 PM
I know some friends from PA who's kids went to college after homeschooling, but they did not do it in the "straight from school" way--they went into the armed forces, and took some classes while there via distance learning, so those would not be typical cases. When they first set foot on a college campus, they will be several years older than many of their peers, with around 2 years worth of credits and government money to pay for the rest of their education.

There are probably a few around here somewhere who went from homeschooling to college in a more traditional way.

My friends kids did not take this option because they did not want to graduate with huge debt hanging over their heads. Their way, they will have most of their education paid for by the time they graduate. They have done well, both in their military service and their distance courses, so far.

Christine
September 22nd, 2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by firechyld

She's 16, and doesn't want to go on to further study.
Actually, I'll be 17 next week.

firechyld
September 22nd, 2004, 08:02 PM
Which means you're 16. :)

Turbo
September 23rd, 2004, 05:35 AM
SOTK, you said this:
Originally posted by SOTK

See, this is why I get so upset with Christians like you... You seem to have it in your head that if a Christian doesn't do something which you think is Christian we aren't Christian. I know, I know.....you haven't said that, but that's what I perceive to come next. Christine came dangerously close to that and might have well said it. It's in her words and it's in yours.
...Immediately after saying this:

A lot of you "Christian" homeschoolers attempt to paint the average Christian public schoolers as stupid and uninvolved.....that we are monsters for sending our kids to Public School.

We all know what it means when "Christian" is in quotes.

1PeaceMaker
September 24th, 2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by firechyld

The only reason any of you can think of for killing humans being wrong is "God said so"? You people scare me. And the "teacher" in the example is an idiot. I seriously doubt that scene would play out that way.

A quick question for homeschoolers: How does the homeschooling system prepare students for learning in a tertiary environment? Once a student hits university/college, they are going to have to know how to learn in a classroom environment. How do you deal with this when teaching a child in a homeschooling environment?

How does going to school with children and underpaid, overworked, frustrated public school teachers prepare you for a university?

I hope that isn't too breif of a response, but I've got to go for now. :)

firechyld
September 28th, 2004, 12:21 AM
How does going to school with children and underpaid, overworked, frustrated public school teachers prepare you for a university?


Because when you get to university, you'll be in a class with other used-to-be-children, and a lecturer who may well be underpaid and frustrated.