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brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:00 PM
using only the words of Jesus, justify war.
can you?

Lucky posted this for me
http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/data/500/1373pw_sign_1.jpg

so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?
what did Jesus say about slavery?
BE A GOOD SLAVE!

how many did Jesus order to go to war?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:03 PM
I don't remember the Constituition including the words of Jesus.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I don't remember the Constituition including the words of Jesus.

I don't remember askin about the Constituition

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 09:08 PM
A man hears a noise in his home. A thief is trying to get in. The man realizes this yet decides to do nothing about it because he believes that Jesus would have wanted it this way. The thief ends up killing the family because this man asked himself, "What would Jesus do?"

Did the man answer this question correctly?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

I don't remember askin about the Constituition

That's your standard tactic, isolate the conversation to disclude any evidence which shows you are clearly mistaken.

However, since the US has declared the war which you are referring to, my point is absolutely pertinent.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Poly

A man hears a noise in his home. A thief is trying to get in. The man realizes this yet decides to do nothing about it because he believes that Jesus would have wanted it this way. The thief ends up killing the family because this man asked himself, "What would Jesus do?"

Did the man answer this question correctly?
NOPE
he should have talked to the theif.

now tell me.

has the theif REALLY killed the man?

by killing the theif, would the man have lived?

maybe in this world, but thats not what the idea is.

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:25 PM
:bang:

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

That's your standard tactic, isolate the conversation to disclude any evidence which shows you are clearly mistaken.

However, since the US has declared the war which you are referring to, my point is absolutely pertinent.
no it isnt pertinent.
it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

NOPE
he should have talked to the theif.

now tell me.

has the theif REALLY killed the man?

by killing the theif, would the man have lived?

maybe in this world, but thats not what the idea is.

:confused:

bW, this is a hypothetical situation here.
Yes, the thief really kills the man. The man decided to have a little chat with the thief instead of defending himself but before he could get 2 words out the thief blows his head off and then goes and kills the rest of his family. Now you really want to tell me that Jesus was happy that this man who decided to talk with the thief instead of doing whatever necessary in protecting his family?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

no it isnt pertinent.
it has nothing to do with the question at hand.

Oh contrare moanfrare, you want to berate Bush for starting a war. You are somehow, with your twisted theology, trying to make a case that it isn't the Christian thing to do and I am rightfully explaining to you that Christianity has nothing to do with the obligation of the President of the US to defend it's citizens.

Now, if you are asking "Is it OK for Brother Willi to start a war?", then that would be another topic. Of course, the answer will still ultimately be determined by the Constitution. :bannana:

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Poly

:confused:

bW, this is a hypothetical situation here.
Yes, the thief really kills the man. The man decided to have a little chat with the thief instead of defending himself but before he could get 2 words out the thief blows his head off and then goes and kills the rest of his family. Now you really want to tell me that Jesus was happy that this man decided to talk with the thief instead of doing whatever necessary in protecting his family?

BW has lost his mind.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 09:33 PM
BB.Your spinning your wheels. You can't reason with nut cases.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Poly

:confused:

bW, this is a hypothetical situation here.
Yes, the thief really kills the man. The man decided to have a little chat with the thief instead of defending himself but before he could get 2 words out the thief blows his head off and then goes and kills the rest of his family. Now you really want to tell me that Jesus was happy that this man who decided to talk with the thief instead of doing whatever necessary in protecting his family?
YEP
prove me wrong

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Oh contrare moanfrare, you want to berate Bush for starting a war. You are somehow, with your twisted theology, trying to make a case that it isn't the Christian thing to do and I am rightfully explaining to you that Christianity has nothing to do with the obligation of the President of the US to defend it's citizens.

Now, if you are asking "Is it OK for Brother Willi to start a war?", then that would be another topic. Of course, the answer will still ultimately be determined by the Constitution. :bannana:
you see no other way but war?

tell me Jesus would say "go kill em George"

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 09:36 PM
BillyBob
BW has lost his mind.

e4e ----You can't lose what you never had.:rolleyes:

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

BB.Your spinning your wheels. You can't reason with nut cases.
is Jesus a "nut case"???

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

BB.Your spinning your wheels. You can't reason with nut cases.

Apparently.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 09:40 PM
brother Willi


is Jesus a "nut case"???

e4e ---- No, but you are not Jesus. Your the nut case.:D :kookoo:

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi



e4e ---- No, but you are not Jesus. Your the nut case.:D :kookoo:

then PLEASE, justify war using only the words of Jesus


havin trouble?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you see no other way but war?

Depends on the situation. War was never the first option, there were countless UN Resolutions and direct ultimatums from the US to Saddam which were all rejected before GW decided to invade Iraq. You cannot tell me that you do not know all this?

Even more appropriate is the history lesson you seem to need concerning the US invasion of Afghanistan. There was this incident called 9-11, perhaps you heard of it????????




tell me Jesus would say "go kill em George"

Who knows, but the fact is that we were attacked and Jesus doesn't dictate our foreign policy!

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

then PLEASE, justify war using only the words of Jesus


havin trouble?

Nope, better. I have shown that the words of Jesus have nothing to do with the US decision to go to war, nor should they.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Depends on the situation. War was never the first option, there were countless UN Resolutions and direct ultimatums from the US to Saddam which were all rejected before GW decided to invade Iraq. You cannot tell me that you do not know all this?

Even more appropriate is the history lesson you seem to need concerning the US invasion of Afghanistan. There was this incident called 9-11, perhaps you heard of it????????


justify war using only the words of Jesus





Who knows, but the fact is that we were attacked and Jesus doesn't dictate our foreign policy!

WHO KNOWS???????????

tell me about Jesus
what did he say or do to make you unsure??????????

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Nope, better. I have shown that the words of Jesus have nothing to do with the US decision to go to war, nor should they.
justify war using only the words of Jesus Billy.

you cant, thats why you try to change the topic.

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

justify war using only the words of Jesus

I have no need to, the war is justified by the obligation of our Government.



WHO KNOWS???????????

tell me about Jesus
what did he say or do to make you unsure??????????

It doesn't matter, Jesus isn't the President.

Lucky
September 12th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Mind if we turn the table and ask you to prove war is wrong, using only the words of Jesus?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

justify war using only the words of Jesus Billy.

you cant, thats why you try to change the topic.

I didn't change the topic. The topic is war. The war we are discussing is being fought by the US Government. No topic change here.

But I've seen you try this tactic before, very lame! :down:

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Mind if we turn the table and ask you to prove war is wrong, using only the words of Jesus?
your job, if you choose to is

justify war using only the words of Jesus

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

justify war using only the words of Jesus



Oh get off it already!

Did Jesus say anything about disciplining our children? Well, I guess since nothing about this is in the red letters we should let kids do whatever they please and never correct them if they are wrong.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I didn't change the topic. The topic is war. The war we are discussing is being fought by the US Government. No topic change here.

But I've seen you try this tactic before, very lame! :down:

honest answer is , Billy cant do it, he cant justify war using only the words of Jesus.
so he changes it to" the president must defend us"

nice try Billy, NO CIGAR.

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Oh get off it already!

Did Jesus say anything about disciplining our children? Well, I guess since nothing about this is in the red letters we should let kids do whatever they please and never correct them if they are wrong. I can just hear kids yelling at their parents... "You can't do anything to me. Prove to me using only the red letters that it's ok for you to discipline me".

ShadowMaid
September 12th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Now, it's just my opinion, and I know I'm young, but I'd think, that when there's a dude, running at you with a vest full of bombs, and he's being paid to kill you and himself... would he really stop to listen to words?

He might stop after a big gun is pointed at him.... (i.e. :dead: )

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Oh get off it already!

Did Jesus say anything about disciplining our children? Well, I guess since nothing about this is in the red letters we should let kids do whatever they please and never correct them if they are wrong.
look at his life, look at his words.

what has Jesus taught us???

can you kill the killer, without becoming the killer you kill???

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

honest answer is , Billy cant do it, he cant justify war using only the words of Jesus.
so he changes it to" the president must defend us"

nice try Billy, NO CIGAR.

Nope, you are drowning and are flayling at straws.

Let me ask you this, BW, which war is it that you are talking about?

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

look at his life, look at his words.

what has Jesus taught us???

can you kill the killer, without becoming the killer you kill???

I'd rather be the killer than the killed. That's a no-brainer. :dunce:

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

look at his life, look at his words.

what has Jesus taught us???

can you kill the killer, without becoming the killer you kill???
bW thinks it's wrong for us to discipline our kids since we can't prove that it should be done using only the words Jesus used.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Now, it's just my opinion, and I know I'm young, but I'd think, that when there's a dude, running at you with a vest full of bombs, and he's being paid to kill you and himself... would he really stop to listen to words?

He might stop after a big gun is pointed at him.... (i.e. :dead: )
you are correct.

so, can you show me Jesus saying to kill?
look at his life, look at his words.

your life belongs to God.

is death but a step on our path?
YEP.
why fear it?

better you should live with God, or with man?



WHAT DID JESUS TEACH?????

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Nope, you are drowning and are flayling at straws.

Let me ask you this, BW, which war is it that you are talking about?

ANY WAR

BillyBob
September 12th, 2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

ANY WAR

Ahhh, well then I have allready addressed that. :bannana:

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:05 PM
Jesus said give unto Cesar what is Cesar's and give unto God what is God"s . That makes us obligated to both, our government and to God. Sense I am not obligated to the law of God, having been set free from the law then my obligation to my government is the only law that I an obliged to honor.

E4E

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Poly

bW thinks it's wrong for us to discipline our kids since we can't prove that it should be done using only the words Jesus used.
i teach my kids with love, not with fear.

that is what Jesus taught.

you are free to smack em if you like, do you really think Jesus would???

Crow
September 12th, 2004, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i teach my kids with love, not with fear.

that is what Jesus taught.

you are free to smack em if you like, do you really think Jesus would???

Yes.

ShadowMaid
September 12th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you are correct.

so, can you show me Jesus saying to kill?
look at his life, look at his words.

your life belongs to God.

is death but a step on our path?
YEP.
why fear it?

better you should live with God, or with man?



WHAT DID JESUS TEACH?????

Well, God doesn't control our life directly, or tell us when to die and all that jazz.

But God did set some requirements or responsibility, and one of them is to protect your family. So if a dude is trying to kill your family you're supposed to kill him.

And we don't listen to just Jesus, there's a whole Bible with the rest of God's word.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Spare the rod and spoil the child. You are part of the reason we have such selfish children these days.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

Jesus said give unto Cesar what is Cesar's and give unto God what is God"s . That makes us obligated to both, our government and to God. Sense I am not obligated to the law of God, having been set free from the law then my obligation to my government is the only law that I an obliged to honor.

E4E
are you really now?
if it was legal to kill, would you???

you are to live as Jesus taught.

NOT AS MAN TEACHES

Lucky
September 12th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i teach my kids with love, not with fear.

that is what Jesus taught.

you are free to smack em if you like, do you really think Jesus would???
:hammer:

You're diggin yourself a deeper hole with every post. :freak:

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i teach my kids with love, not with fear.

that is what Jesus taught.

you are free to smack em if you like, do you really think Jesus would???
I didn't say anything about smackin' 'em.
Have you ever corrected your children in any way? If you have then by your own argument, you were wrong because you can't prove that it was ok for you to do so using only the words of Jesus.

Have you ever listened to Christian Contemporary Music? If you have then you were wrong because you can't prove it's ok using only the words of Jesus.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Yes I would if the situation called for it.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

Spare the rod and spoil the child. You are part of the reason we have such selfish children these days.

tell me of my kids, PLEASE!!!

i was never hit once

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Poly

I didn't say anything about smackin' 'em.
Have you ever corrected your children in any way? If you have then by your own argument, you were wrong because you can't prove that it was ok for you to do so using only the words of Jesus.

Have you ever listened to Christian Contemporary Music? If you have then you were wrong because you can't prove it's ok using only the words of Jesus.

did Jesus correct?
YEP
did he use violence?
NOPE

who are the "vipers" Jesus spoke of???

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

Yes I would if the situation called for it.
then you would kill yourself, to save yourself.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:17 PM
brother Willi
then you would kill yourself, to save yourself.

e4e --- You are a moron:freak:

Poly
September 12th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

did Jesus correct?
YEP

Jesus never said it was ok for parents to correct their children.


did he use violence?
NOPE
I seem to remember Him being a tad bit ticked, creating a ruckus because some greedy money makers were abusing His Father's house.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi

e4e --- You are a moron:freak:
thank you.


you plan your wars, have fun

DONT DO IT IN THE NAME OF JESUS!

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Jesus never said it was ok for parents to correct their children.


did Jesus correct?
wait you answered that yourself right here


I seem to remember Him being a tad bit ticked, creating a ruckus because some greedy money makers were abusing His Father's house.

look at his life, read his words.
did Jesus correct?
YEP
did he preach peace or violence?
PEACE

will he know you?
did you live your life by his example?

think REAL hard now.
what of the wheat and tares again??

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi

e4e --- You are a moron:freak:
do you understand what i meant?

ShadowMaid
September 12th, 2004, 10:29 PM
There's a difference in cruelty, defense and discipline.

God gave us the choice, on whether to be responsible or not.

If a thief brakes into a house, that's cruelty, if the owner of the house shoots him to protect his family and himself, that's defense. The owner of the house's God given responsibility is to defend his family.

If you spank a child because they accidentally stepped on your foot, that's cruelty, if you spank a child because they told you "no" in rebellion, then that's discipline.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:29 PM
brother Willi
thank you.

e4e --- I am glad that you recognized this truth any way and agree your a moron.

brother Willi
you plan your wars, have fun

e4e ---I have never planed a war and wars are never fun. You are even more stupid than I though.

brother Willi
DON'T DO IT IN THE NAME OF JESUS!

e4e --- I leave that to nut cases like you.:zakath:

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Matthew 5:1
When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.

Matthew 5:2
He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:4
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Matthew 5:5
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Matthew 5:7
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Matthew 5:8
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Matthew 5:10
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:13
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

Matthew 5:15
nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Matthew 5:16
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:21
"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'

Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:23
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

Matthew 5:24
leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

Matthew 5:25
"Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

Matthew 5:26
"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

Matthew 5:27
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:29
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30
"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:31
"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';

Matthew 5:32
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 5:33
"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'

Matthew 5:34
"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

Matthew 5:35
or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.

Matthew 5:36
"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.

Matthew 5:37
"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5:40
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Matthew 5:41
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Matthew 5:42
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 5:47
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

brother Willi
September 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5:40
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Matthew 5:41
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Matthew 5:42
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 5:47
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

elected4ever
September 12th, 2004, 10:42 PM
So?

billwald
September 12th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Jesus didn't discuss every possible topic, but how about, "Render to Caesar?"

Shadowx
September 12th, 2004, 11:02 PM
so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?

A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"

Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:

Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?

Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...

Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?

When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?

aikido7
September 12th, 2004, 11:17 PM
Love your enemies--unless they are REALLY bad. Then kill them.

The Father makes his sun to shine on the good, and darkness to descend on the evil.

The Father sends rain on the unjust and unrighteous.

There--isn't that easy? Nothing hard about following Jesus. Just act the way Jesus does--the way most people would do.

Really--when you come to think about it--Jesus is no different than you or me. Being a Christian shouldn't be so difficult after all....

Crow
September 12th, 2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?

A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"

Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:

Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?

Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...

Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?

When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?

POTD! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=590006#post590006):first:

ebenz47037
September 12th, 2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

using only the words of Jesus, justify war.
can you?

Lucky posted this for me
http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/data/500/1373pw_sign_1.jpg

so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?
what did Jesus say about slavery?
BE A GOOD SLAVE!

how many did Jesus order to go to war?

Jesus may not have ordered any to go to war, but He did say this:


Matthew 10
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

So, He told us Himself that He did not come to bring peace. He came to bear the sword. There will be no real peace on earth until He returns to rule it. Revelation talks about the great war that will happen when He returns. From my understanding, that doesn't look like peace there.

There is no God-ruled government on earth at this time. It will come in the future with Christ's return. Until then, I don't think we should expect our government to act as Christ would. These are men. Christ is more than a man. He is our Lord and King.

SOTK
September 13th, 2004, 02:51 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi
.................did he preach peace or violence?
PEACE

Matthew 10-34:36
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]

I'm not stating that Jesus preaches violence, BW, but he certainly isn't all about "Peace" either! Some Christians and even non-believers are too quick to point out that Jesus is about love. Well, he is, but Jesus and the Father have shown themselves to be wrathful as well. They can be angered and can deliver righteous judgement.

Jesus isn't here yet, BW. We are living on a planet occupied by evil...Satan! Evil is alive and well! Sure, we are to love one another and to become as Christ-like as possible, but loving one another is pretty hard when we are surrounded by evil. There is a WAR going on right now, BW. WHich side are you on? I am on God's side myself, and, yes, I believe that can mean killing evil if so led.

We are to witness are we not? To spread the good news, correct? If I let an evil person kill me, that can mean that people that I may have been supposed to witness too can't receive the message. Or you can look at it another way. My willingness to die could allow other victims to die having not received the good news yet. That's even worse! It's permanent!

No, BW, Peace will only happen when Jesus is actually here. Until then, evil remains and is in full force! Love will only truly exist when Jesus returns to reign. In the mean time, we love as much as we can and fight when confronted with evil!

SOTK

Christine
September 13th, 2004, 04:49 AM
Brother Willie, I've saw every scriptural reference you gave, and all or almost all were from the book of Matthew or another one of the Gospels. In many of the scriptures you gave, Jesus is telling the saved Jews how the world will be during Christ's millennial reign on earth.

If you accept all of scripture as being devinely inspired, and if Jesus was devine, then His words contradicted what His inspired word says elsewhere in scripture. God commanded King David to go to war. God commanded Israel to fight the enemies that were living in their land to get their land back. So, BW, when you are quoting the words of Jesus, you need to keep them in their context and see if they even apply to us today.

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 08:12 AM
Matthew 10-34:36
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]

to understand this, you need to pretend you are from that time. in that place.

be part of that jewwish family and bring home news of a messiah

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Brother Willie, I've saw every scriptural reference you gave, and all or almost all were from the book of Matthew or another one of the Gospels. In many of the scriptures you gave, Jesus is telling the saved Jews how the world will be during Christ's millennial reign on earth.

can you show me this?

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 08:28 AM
I'm not stating that Jesus preaches violence, BW, but he certainly isn't all about "Peace" either! Some Christians and even non-believers are too quick to point out that Jesus is about love. Well, he is, but Jesus and the Father have shown themselves to be wrathful as well. They can be angered and can deliver righteous judgement.

yes they can


we can not

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 08:28 AM
am i wheat?

am i tares?


tell me, then kill me

Chileice
September 13th, 2004, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Shadowx

so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?

A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"

Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:

Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?

Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...

Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?

When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?

Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!


Originally posted by JESUS
"Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food.
11"Now whatever city or town you enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and stay there till you go out. And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves.
Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21"Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

24"A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household! Therefore do not fear them. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known.

27 "Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Chileice
September 13th, 2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by Shadowx

so, my question is.
what is a Christian?
is it not to be Christ like?

A few questions..given your definition of "Christian"
Although I hate to dissect Crow's POTD, I think a further examination is in order.


Originally posted by Shadowx
Wilber, who killed king herod in the NT? I mean if we are to be Christ like, then it wouldn't necessarily be a sin to kill a wicked king would it? Or did God the father kill Herod against the teachings of Jesus Christ and thereby became un-Christlike? :chuckle:

God killed Herod, or allowed him to die anyway. But look what happened first:
Luke 13
30And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last."
31On that very day[1] some Pharisees came, saying to Him, "Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill You."
32And He said to them, "Go, tell that fox, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.'

LUKE 23.11,12
Then Herod, with his men of war, treated Him with contempt and mocked Him, arrayed Him in a gorgeous robe, and sent Him back to Pilate. That very day Pilate and Herod became friends with each other, for previously they had been at enmity with each other.


God let this man kill a bunch of folks and even condemn Christ to death WITHOUT killing him. What if someone HAD killed him? Would that have been God's will? Might not another king have let Jesus off the hook? I think killing a leader because we get the whim to do so is wrong. I fully believe that with prayer, instead of guns, Sadaam Hussein could have dropped dead of a heart attack, eaten rotten meat or whatever and died if that were God's plan. Maybe God wanted to kill Sadaam but instead he is alive to serve as some sort of inspiration to those who followed him. So, yes, I think it would be a sin for me to kill any leader: Castro or Blair or the leader of N. Korea. It is still a sin.




Originally posted by Shadowx
Would it be wrong..for someone to take away the sight of a pagan trying to turn another away from faith in Christ? Would that be un-Christlike? Would Jesus condemn that...?
Without the EXPLICIT command of God... YES. It would be a sin. Pagans and others have always tried to turn us from the faith. But the beauty of Christianity, real Christianity is we can stand in the face of persecution, ridicule and abuse because we stand with the Christ who was likewise ridiculed and abused. SATAN himself tried to turn Jesus from His faith. Maybe some pagan peon would be just the challenge we need to grow in our faith... not to put his eyes out.



Originally posted by Shadowx
Would you have a problem if I made a whip and ran some heathens out of YOUR house? You know, maybe they are trying to rape your kids or something...
Actually, I would have a problem with that unless I had invited you over. I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defence from his ethic. But I think it should be a last resort. And personal self-defense is a FAR different matter than nations taking up arms against nations... especially in some kind of pre-emptory war. That is what Vietnam was sold to us as. It was the was to keep America safe, because if Vietnam fell we were going to be fighting the commies on our soil. Well we lost some 50,000 fine young men, lost Vietnam and the commies never arrived on our doorstep. Premptory violence just breed contempt and more violence.


Originally posted by Shadowx
Is Godly Criminal Justice for today?
Criminal justice, yes. Warfare, NO.


Originally posted by Shadowx
When a Christian cop guns down a maniac who is shooting up a school yard full of Children..Is Jesus mad at him for not "turning the other cheek"? Is he a criminal or a hero in God's eyes?


I guarantee that cop doesn't want to pull the trigger. If he does he is a bad cop. But, in the line of duty he has to do it sometimes. But he is the rightfully selected arm of the authorities we are to obey and he is acting to stop abherrent criminal behaviour. Should that same cop go into a neighbourhood where drugs are being sold and kill all of the 15-20 year lod boys because they are the ones most likely to use drugs?! Of course not, but that is the kind of mentality it takes to drop into other countries and kill "suspected terrorists" without any evidence or right to trial. That is evil. All of these children who have been killed who couldn't have possibly been terrorists.

I know you all are on Brother Willi's case but I think he is right. You cannot justify war with Jesus' words. Christians suffered and died by the hundreds and thousands in the first three centuries and the Gospel spread like wildfire. After becoming the state religion, decadence spread like wildfire. How does anyone KNOW that God wants the U.S. to remain a superpower. Maybe it is His time to do something else to wake the world up to the fact that Christianity does not belong to America. Praise God that there are Americans who are Christians but when more of them act like Christians, instead of just Americans, this world will see a revival like we haven't experienced in generations.

billwald
September 13th, 2004, 11:32 AM
We let the Moslems kill all us Christians because "to die is gain." Pie in the sky, by and by.

Shadowx
September 13th, 2004, 11:49 AM
"Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!"

You said:
"Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it."

Would you also agree we might have to blind people for it?
Like say...Paul...who blinded a man, because he was seeking to turn someone from the faith. Would it be an act of unfaithfulness to the Lord if a Christian cop had to kill a criminal? (see scenario in my first post) Or would you quote to Him, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Or in this case bullet..

You said:
I" think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth."

Yes, provided he confines God to a few verses..and puts words into Jesus' mouth like, "Love your enemy" Wilber's addition- WHILE he is raping your family.
"If he is hungry feed him, if he is thirsty give him drink" Wilber's addition-"WHILE he is raping your 5 yearold daughter.." So I guess you and he would condemn Paul for blinding God's enemy...I don't recall Paul giving him any thing to eat or drink at that moment..

You said:
"Jesus wanted us to trust him."

Protecting ones family, or going off to war to destroy a wicked genocidal regime. (or taking away someone's eyesight as Paul did) isn't the absence of faith, it can be the presence of it. Was Paul being unfaithful and un-Christlike when he blinded a man?

You said:
"If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help."

Would you help him if he asked you to? Didn't Jesus say "Follow me" "It's enough for the student to be like his teacher?" So again..if we go and kill a wicked genocidal king.., why would you and Wilber condemn us? Didn't Wilber say we need to be "Christ like"??? Then you and he need to be consistant..
Do you support Jesus killing king Herod? Do you condemn the saints in Revelations pleading with God to kill their enemies?

You said:
"Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them."
So then you agree with Jesus saying "It's enough for the student to be like his master"?

Would you agree that Jesus spoke through Paul?
Paul mocked the Christians at Corinth for being of the mind you and Wilber are of. That they would even let people smack them in the face..

2co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
2co 11:20 For ye suffer, if a man bring you into bondage, if a man devour you, if a man take of you, if a man exalt himself, if a man smite you on the face.

So here we have Paul mocking the very thing Jesus who was preaching the "Gospel of the kingdom" told HIS disciples they should do..."Turn the other cheek." It would seem you and Wilber believe this is for all people, at all times, under EVERY SITUATION..(Paul did not) Nor do the saints in Revelation who are praying to God to kill their enemies..
Now..I don't have any problems reconciling Paul mocking believers for being of the, "turn the other cheek mentality" in my Christian theology, but how do you and Wilber..?

"we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. *Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them.* Maybe we ought to listen!"

Yeah..except for the ones where he supports violence...
And I guess if you mean to say ALL his teachings are for us today, then you need to be circumcised and keep *all* the law of mosses.

Shadowx
September 13th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Chileice...

I just read your "disecting my post"..
I responded to your first post to me before I read it. How about holding up with any more..I will resubmit my last post with additional comments to your new stuff either tonight or tommorrow. Then you can comment on it all.

Ok?

ebenz47037
September 13th, 2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Matthew 10-34:36
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35For I have come to "set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36and "a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'[5]

to understand this, you need to pretend you are from that time. in that place.

be part of that jewwish family and bring home news of a messiah

If you do that with one scripture, you must do it with all of it, bro Willi. Either it all applies to everyone or none of it applies to anyone anymore.

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Jesus may not have ordered any to go to war, but He did say this:

"Matthew 10
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."


YEP, he sure did.

tell me, what did he mean by "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

how could one deny him?
by not taking his message as important maybe?
whjat is the message?

then Jesus said"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."


to understand this, just look at this thread.
but to reallty experience it.
go back in time.
bring home this message of a Messiah.

remember, the high priest wants you to yell Barrabas

so does your family.



There will be no real peace on earth until He returns to rule it. Revelation talks about the great war that will happen when He returns. From my understanding, that doesn't look like peace there.


now is not Revelation .
now is the time that the wheat and tares grow together


There is no God-ruled government on earth at this time. It will come in the future with Christ's return. Until then, I don't think we should expect our government to act as Christ would. These are men. Christ is more than a man. He is our Lord and King.
remember how the abortion issue got Gearge elected?

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

If you do that with one scripture, you must do it with all of it, bro Willi. Either it all applies to everyone or none of it applies to anyone anymore.
ok, sorry, i didnt see this.
see my last post please.

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by billwald

Jesus didn't discuss every possible topic, but how about, "Render to Caesar?"

absolutly "Render to Caesar"
give him all you wish.
he is not my God.
i render to God ALL that is God's.

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

Following Jesus is hard. We might get killed for it. I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth. Jesus wanted us to trust him. If HE wants to kill someone, that's up to him and he can rot the king's guts out without my help. But if I try to save my life I lose it. If I lose it for His sake and the gospel's, I gain it. It's not what we like to hear so we make up baloney like the gospels are only for Jews. That negates all of Jesus' teaching. That is a bunch of hog hooey. Jesus' words are just as valid today as the day he spoke them. Maybe we ought to listen!
and thats my POTD

Chileice, do you feel the sword?
the one that cuts you in half while you said it?

sword has many meanings.

thank you for understanding

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx


Would you also agree we might have to blind people for it?
Like say...Paul...who blinded a man, because he was seeking to turn someone from the faith. Would it be an act of unfaithfulness to the Lord if a Christian cop had to kill a criminal? (see scenario in my first post) Or would you quote to Him, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"? Or in this case bullet..

should Shadowxians follow your followers words, if those words do not agree with your words, and the example your life leaves?

i do not knock Paul.
i ask folks to be Christ like.
not Paul like




Yes, provided he confines God to a few verses..and puts words into Jesus' mouth like, "Love your enemy" Wilber's addition- WHILE he is raping your family.

you wanna explain this?


"If he is hungry feed him, if he is thirsty give him drink" Wilber's addition-"WHILE he is raping your 5 yearold daughter.." So I guess you and he would condemn Paul for blinding God's enemy...I don't recall Paul giving him any thing to eat or drink at that moment..

so you are Paul like?



Yeah..except for the ones where he supports violence...
And I guess if you mean to say ALL his teachings are for us today, then you need to be circumcised and keep *all* the law of mosses.

if i support the law of the old west, am i saying it is good today?

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 02:53 PM
WE ARE ALL AT THE SAME WEDDING PARTY

IT IS TIME TO TEST THE SPIRITS!

does GANDHI pass the test?

http://www.vov.com/leaders/gandhi.html

ebenz47037
September 13th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

YEP, he sure did.

tell me, what did he mean by "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

He was (IMHO, mind I'm not a Bible scholar) saying that anyone who denies that He is the Christ (says, "Jesus was a good teacher, but that's all." Or "Jesus was not the Messiah.") will be denied before the Father.


how could one deny him?
by not taking his message as important maybe?
whjat is the message?

How is one not taking His message as important when they spread the gospel and try to prepare the field for harvest? If Jesus was a pacifist, he wouldn't have overturned the tables in the temple. He also wouldn't have spoken the words in the scripture I cited.


then Jesus said"34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."


to understand this, just look at this thread.
but to reallty experience it.
go back in time.
bring home this message of a Messiah.

I've gone over the thread several times. You have to look at the entire message of Christ. When he told us to turn the other cheek, do you think he was telling us to let someone kill our children? I don't. There is a difference between self defense (and protecting one's family) and vengence. If someone were to try to kill my daughter or me, I would try to stop them any way I could. But, if someone were to kill my daughter, I would not be allowed to kill him/her according to scripture. That's the difference I see there.


remember, the high priest wants you to yell Barrabas

so does your family.

I know that. :chuckle: And, I cannot see myself among those yelling Barrabas. But, I didn't live then. I don't know. :)


now is not Revelation .
now is the time that the wheat and tares grow together

You're right. But, I was telling you that Jesus is not going to be coming in peace. He will bring peace after evil has been crushed under His feet. :)


remember how the abortion issue got Gearge elected?

I know. But, that's not why I voted for him. I voted for him because I saw Algore for what he is. I know that one day, openly worshipping God will be outlawed in the world. I pray that it's after my daughter and I are dead. But, I don't know when it's going to be.

I know that we believe differently on this issue, bro Willi. But, that doesn't make you less of a Christian than I am or make me less of one than you are. :)

brother Willi
September 13th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

He was (IMHO, mind I'm not a Bible scholar) saying that anyone who denies that He is the Christ (says, "Jesus was a good teacher, but that's all." Or "Jesus was not the Messiah.") will be denied before the Father.
can you say he was the Messiah, without knowing what he wanted?





How is one not taking His message as important when they spread the gospel and try to prepare the field for harvest? If Jesus was a pacifist, he wouldn't have overturned the tables in the temple. He also wouldn't have spoken the words in the scripture I cited.

yes he overturned tables
how many did he hit?



I've gone over the thread several times. You have to look at the entire message of Christ. When he told us to turn the other cheek, do you think he was telling us to let someone kill our children? I don't. There is a difference between self defense (and protecting one's family) and vengence. If someone were to try to kill my daughter or me, I would try to stop them any way I could. But, if someone were to kill my daughter, I would not be allowed to kill him/her according to scripture. That's the difference I see there.
i agree, we do need to look at the
entire message of Christ
and how he lived his life.



I know that. :chuckle: And, I cannot see myself among those yelling Barrabas. But, I didn't live then. I don't know. :)
and thats the only true answer.
to yell "Barrabas" would mean a vote for a murder





You're right. But, I was telling you that Jesus is not going to be coming in peace. He will bring peace after evil has been crushed under His feet. :)
YEP, but for now, are we not the wheat and tares growing together?




I know. But, that's not why I voted for him. I voted for him because I saw Algore for what he is. I know that one day, openly worshipping God will be outlawed in the world. I pray that it's after my daughter and I are dead. But, I don't know when it's going to be.
i completely agree with you.
Bush was the correct vote.
but i think we been duped.




I know that we believe differently on this issue, bro Willi. But, that doesn't make you less of a Christian than I am or make me less of one than you are. :)
agreed:)

Shadowx
September 13th, 2004, 04:37 PM
My original post to Wilber was intended to see how consistent he was willing to be..with his definition of "Christian"
I ask him basically if it was Christ like to use physical force, since Jesus at times did use force against his enemies, both personally and through the apostle Paul.
So he can't say, even if he wants to confine God to the 4 gospels, it's not Christ like to ever use physical force against the enemies of God.


Although I hate to dissect Crow's POTD, I think a further examination is in order.
O come now, you don't hate it at all :)
You might "hate" my responce though..


I fully believe that with prayer, instead of guns, Sadaam Hussein could have dropped dead of a heart attack, eaten rotten meat or whatever and died if that were God's plan.
No, you do NOT fully believe that, IF you believe in self defense.
You said: " I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defence from his ethic." This contradicts your idea that if it's God's will to destroy a genocidal raping murderer,we wouldn't have to lift a finger.., just pray..You are not consistant..If it's God's will that you be defended from such a person, why would he need YOUR help?

If It's God's will for the attack to stop, you won't have to lift a finger to do anything to assist God.., Right?

Or if your child is being gang raped...You can just pray to God while it's happening..and if nothing happens you will then know it was his will for you and your child..And hey, to prove it to your child, when he asked you why all you did was pray, you can give him an answer by confining God to a few verses in the 4 gospels.


"Maybe God wanted to kill Sadaam but instead he is alive to serve as some sort of inspiration to those who followed him".
Yes, Saddam is an inspiration to all other potential child raping, genocidal lunatics that Christians will come to your defense, with, "It's all God's will", don't worry, carry on...


"Without the EXPLICIT command of God... YES. It would be a sin. Pagans and others have always tried to turn us from the faith. But the beauty of Christianity, real Christianity is we can stand in the face of persecution, ridicule and abuse because we stand with the Christ who was likewise ridiculed and abused. SATAN himself tried to turn Jesus from His faith. Maybe some pagan peon would be just the challenge we need to grow in our faith... not to put his eyes out."
You admit that Jesus didn't exclude self defense, can you show me where he specifically says it's ok for YOU to defend yourself and your family?
Did he come and personally tell you it was ok, did he tell you specificaly in any verses self defense is ok? And if not is it wrong?

You say below that it's a SIN to use physical violence, unless Jesus gives you SPECIFIC commands..
If you can't show me a specific teaching or command by Jesus that allows for YOU to defend yourself.., then by your own words you are sinning..

Of course since Jesus in the 4 gospels didn't say, "America, go kill off nazis", we were wrong to destroy hitler's regime also. That was un Christlike..to the nazis..,right? But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell the Jews it was unChrist like..to them would you?
"We should have allowed nazis to rape, murder and torture you.."
"It was unGodly of us to stop that..." "We should have just prayed..about it"

Do you think the good samaritine would have been labled a bad samaritine by Jesus, if he had come along while the attack was under way and used physical force to stop it, even if he had to kill..?


Actually, I would have a problem with that unless I had invited you over. I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defense from his ethic. But I think it should be a last resort. And personal self-defense is a FAR different matter than nations taking up arms against nations... especially in some kind of pre-emptory war. That is what Vietnam was sold to us as. It was the was to keep America safe, because if Vietnam fell we were going to be fighting the commies on our soil. Well we lost some 50,000 fine young men, lost Vietnam and the commies never arrived on our doorstep. Premptory violence just breed contempt and more violence.
Interesting..You would have a problem with me if I saw someone break into your house and then heard cries coming from inside, if I came in univited by you and tried to stop him?
Who would you run off, me or the person trying to murder you?

"Preemptory violence just breed contempt and more violence."
How do YOU define preemptory violence? Saddem murdered around a million people. His regime tortured, raped and murdered school kids..both in his country and Kuwait.

Was Israel wrong to preemptively take out Saddems nuke program?


I guarantee that cop doesn't want to pull the trigger. If he does he is a bad cop.
And I would say if he hesitates, he is a bad cop..I would say if while a criminal is gunning down a play ground full of kids and he hesitates to stop him, because you or Wilber were his adviser, I would say he, you and Wilber have done a bad thing..


"But, in the line of duty he has to do it sometimes. But he is the rightfully selected arm of the authorities we are to obey and he is acting to stop abhorrent criminal behavior."
I don't think Wilber allows for this.. and you really can't allow for it in terms of personal self defense, unless Jesus tells you it's ok..


"Should that same cop go into a neighborhood where drugs are being sold and kill all of the 15-20 year lod boys because they are the ones most likely to use drugs?! Of course not, but that is the kind of mentality it takes to drop into other countries and kill "suspected terrorists" without any evidence or right to trial. That is evil. All of these children who have been killed who couldn't have possibly been terrorists".
You say it's evil for a cop to do such a thing, but you try to argue by using king Herod's example, that God wanted saddem's regime to stay in power for the very reason you claim would be evil...
Saddem's regime murdered, tortured and raped innocent teens. Was HIS preemptive rape and torture strikes wrong?
According to your Christian views, if God doesn't want that cop to murder innocent teens...He will DIRECTLY stop him...we are free from any responsiblities..


"Christians suffered and died by the hundreds and thousands in the first three centuries and the Gospel spread like wildfire."
Then how dare you support self defense in the name of Jesus Christ and hinder the Gospel..


How does anyone KNOW that God wants the U.S. to remain a superpower.
How do you know he doesn't?

A few final questions..
Why did Paul mock those in the body of Christ at Corinth for being of the mind that they would let someone smack them in the face?
Who would you want present with you if someone was trying to torture and rape your family, someone who believes what Wilber believers, or me....? And if you say Wilber, go tell that to your family. ..

Shadowx
September 13th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

should Shadowxians follow your followers words, if those words do not agree with your words, and the example your life leaves?

i do not knock Paul.
i ask folks to be Christ like.
not Paul like
So Paul wasn't being Christ like when he blinded a man? :chuckle:
No...I think ..you are asking people to be like you..

I think Brother Willi may be the only one disciple enough to face the truth."

Yes, provided he confines God to a few verses..and puts words into Jesus' mouth like, "Love your enemy" Wilber's addition- WHILE he is raping your family.

you wanna explain this?
Yeah see above.

If he is hungry feed him, if he is thirsty give him drink. Wilber's addition-"WHILE he is raping your 5 yearold daughter.." So I guess you and he would condemn Paul for blinding God's enemy...I don't recall Paul giving him any thing to eat or drink at that moment..

so you are Paul like?
Paul said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I have followed Christ"
Was he not following Christ when he used violence? I suspect that you would only agree that he was following Christ, when he was following you...

Chileice
September 13th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx


No, you do NOT fully believe that, IF you believe in self defense.
You said: " I do not think Jesus has excluded legitimate self-defence from his ethic." This contradicts your idea that if it's God's will to destroy a genocidal raping murderer,we wouldn't have to lift a finger.., just pray..You are not consistant..If it's God's will that you be defended from such a person, why would he need YOUR help?

If It's God's will for the attack to stop, you won't have to lift a finger to do anything to assist God.., Right?

First off, I don't think it is your place to tell me what I believe, even if you perceive the belief to be inconsistent. Certainly you may question my beliefs and probe to find out why I believe them but you are not in my mind, just as I am not in yours.

Second, Yes, I do believe with all my heart that had we as Christians joined in concerted prayer before running to the gun closet, God would have done something divine to bring Sadaam's reign to an end or to a new conclusion. In fact, I think Sadaam nay have been changing his heart. Not that he was an angel, but under pressure, much of what he had been doing before, he was no longer doing. Perhaps God was at work in his heart. It is hard to convince me that LESS people have been killed since the entry into Iraq than would have been killed without it.


Originally posted by Shadowx

Or if your child is being gang raped...You can just pray to God while it's happening..and if nothing happens you will then know it was his will for you and your child..And hey, to prove it to your child, when he asked you why all you did was pray, you can give him an answer by confining God to a few verses in the 4 gospels.

Yes, Saddam is an inspiration to all other potential child raping, genocidal lunatics that Christians will come to your defense, with, "It's all God's will", don't worry, carry on...

Oh yes, the proverbial gang rape your children question. How often does that happen? Of course as a concerned father I would do all I could to stop them and probably would die in the intent if I couldn't kill them first. And if they were armed, they would likely kill me or you for that matter. So what will we have gained? Our raped children will also have a dead father. I'm not saying I would just stand there, I know I wouldn't but Brother Willi's idea of talking to them is at least as likely to be more effective than my attempt to beat them up.


Originally posted by Shadowx
You admit that Jesus didn't exclude self defense, can you show me where he specifically says it's ok for YOU to defend yourself and your family?
Did he come and personally tell you it was ok, did he tell you specificaly in any verses self defense is ok? And if not is it wrong?

You say below that it's a SIN to use physical violence, unless Jesus gives you SPECIFIC commands..
If you can't show me a specific teaching or command by Jesus that allows for YOU to defend yourself.., then by your own words you are sinning..


I believe the following verses show that Jesus wanted his disciples to be prepared to defend themselves:

Originally posted by Luke
Luke 22
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?"
So they said, "Nothing."
36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: "And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."
38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."
And He said to them, "It is enough."

But I am also aware of this verse and ones like it where Jeus roundly condemns the wanton use of the sword (violence).

Originally posted by Matthew
Matthew 26
52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

So I do believe self-defence is a position one can Biblically hold while yet being pacific in nature and conduct.



Originally posted by Shadowx
Of course since Jesus in the 4 gospels didn't say, "America, go kill off nazis", we were wrong to destroy hitler's regime also. That was un Christlike..to the nazis..,right? But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell the Jews it was unChrist like..to them would you?
"We should have allowed nazis to rape, murder and torture you.."
"It was unGodly of us to stop that..." "We should have just prayed..about it"

"Preemptory violence just breed contempt and more violence."
How do YOU define preemptory violence? Saddem murdered around a million people. His regime tortured, raped and murdered school kids..both in his country and Kuwait.

Was Israel wrong to preemptively take out Saddems nuke program?



I think that a country also has a right to defend itself and even to come to the aid of its friends. But again as a last resort. I think America did do the right thing in Europe in WWII and again in the first Gulf War. But I think what She is doing now is not helping bring peace and stability. Russia has now declared that it will make preemptory strikes anywhere it feels it has the need to to protect itself. Do you see where this is leading??!! You cannot deny that Russia has just as much need to do so as the US or Israel. Egypt could easily claim it has reason to start a preemptive strike on Israel as does Syria or Lebanon. The list could end up being endless... Greece attacking Turkey, Turkey attacking Iran and Iraq to be spared from the Kurdish terrorists. Spain attacking France to be spared from the ETA groups that hide out there. Preemptory violence BREEDS violence. I stand by that statement and hope I have made the point clear enough to be understood.

Shadowx
September 13th, 2004, 09:23 PM
First off, I don't think it is your place to tell me what I believe, even if you perceive the belief to be inconsistent. Certainly you may question my beliefs and probe to find out why I believe them but you are not in my mind, just as I am not in yours.
I don't need to be in your mind, you are displaying your mind here and now..I'm commenting on what's coming out.
I don't think you and wil agree on a whole lot..
He doesn't agree with the idea of self defense as being Christ like, as far as I can tell.
I'm happy for your family that you believe it IS Christ like to love them enough to try to protect them..and that you do agree some wars are Godly.


I'm not saying I would just stand there, I know I wouldn't but Brother Willi's idea of talking to them is at least as likely to be more effective than my attempt to beat them up.
I never said talking couldn't be effective before hand, you have to size up the situation. Use wisdom. As for what is worse, "A dead father or a raped child" "No greater love does a man have then to lay down his life for a friend..." How much more your daughter?However, Most gun owning homes don't have to deal with this dilemma.


I believe the following verses show that Jesus wanted his disciples to be prepared to defend themselves
Luke 22
35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?"
So they said, "Nothing."
36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: "And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."
38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."
And He said to them, "It is enough." But I am also aware of this verse and ones like it where Jesus roundly condemns the wanton use of the sword (violence).Matthew 26
52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Yes, I use the same verses as part of an overview to show that self defense is Christ like. But that when Jesus rebukes peter it's because his self defense was out of place. Jesus was on a mission. It wasn't the first time He rebuked peter for being contrary to it...( "This shall never happen to you!!" Jesus said, "Get behind me Satan thou saverest not the things of God")
Violence can be both Godly and ungodly...Unfortunately people like Wili take these verses and apply them in every situation: "See Jesus condemns the use of weapons!!"
"Can't use a gun/sword to protect your family!!" "It's a sin!, Jesus said so in the Bible!!"


Originally posted by Shadowx
Of course since Jesus in the 4 gospels didn't say, "America, go kill off nazis", we were wrong to destroy Hitler's regime also. That was un Christlike..to the nazis..,right? But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't tell the Jews it was unChrist like..to them would you?
"We should have allowed nazis to rape, murder and torture you.."
"It was ungodly of us to stop that..." "We should have just prayed..about it

"Preemptory violence just breed contempt and more violence."
How do YOU define preemptory violence? Saddem murdered around a million people. His regime tortured, raped and murdered school kids..both in his country and Kuwait.

Was Israel wrong to preemptively take out Saddems nuke program? "[/qoute]

[QUOTE]I think that a country also has a right to defend itself and even to come to the aid of its friends. But again as a last resort. I think America did do the right thing in Europe in WWII and again in the first Gulf War. But I think what She is doing now is not helping bring peace and stability. Russia has now declared that it will make preemptory strikes anywhere it feels it has the need to protect itself. Do you see where this is leading??!! You cannot deny that Russia has just as much need to do so as the US or Israel. Egypt could easily claim it has reason to start a preemptive strike on Israel as does Syria or Lebanon. The list could end up being endless... Greece attacking Turkey, Turkey attacking Iran and Iraq to be spared from the Kurdish terrorists. Spain attacking France to be spared from the ETA groups that hide out there. Preemptory violence BREEDS violence. I stand by that statement and hope I have made the point clear enough to be understood.

Wily, do you think Chileice post here should be post of the day? :)
He says it's not always a sin to kill, that in some situations it's ok to kill other people. He says it's not a sin to invade other nations under certain circumstances..(help a friend etc etc)


"Russia has now declared that it will make preemptory strikes anywhere it feels it has the need to protect itself. Do you see where this is leading??!! You cannot deny that Russia has just as much need to do so as the US or Israel."
Preemption, like violence, can be moral or immoral. If Russia wants to preempt some radical groups, or nations that are *actively* seeking to murder off it's population, I support them. Would it be ungodly/immoral for them to go after the remnants of the group that just murderer hundreds of their people? I would be very happy if Russia and any other nation joined our efforts to kill off Islamic murdering, raping, torturing fanatics.


" Egypt could easily claim it has reason to start a preemptive strike on Israel as does Syria or Lebanon."

Yeah, nations can *claim* a lot of things, but that doesn't mean there preemptive attack is justifiable. I would guess you are using the same measuring stick for that as I am...
If Egypt wants to attack Israel again, what is stopping them?
The Pacifism of the Israelis?? :) Or maybe it's the fact that they have tasted of Israelis wrath before and have also seen them preempt saddems nuke program..Is that remotely possible?

Would you compare Israelis preemptive strike on saddems nukes as morally equivalent with Al-Qaeda preemptive attack on us?
Or as morally equivalent as the Arab nations (Including Egypt's) attack on them in 1948, just for being Jewish?

I don't think you and Wily see eye to eye on these issues....Like I said above..I am thankful for that much and I bet so is your family...
If I haven't answered all your points, please feel free to bring them back up..

Wily, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR...If he is being attacked or raped, it's not ungodly for you to show him some love and help him out..
You might condemn me for it, but if one of your family members was being raped, I would do what I could, including physical violence to stop it..

I will just take my chances that Jesus won't condemn me to hell for it..

Godbless,
Danny

brother Willi
September 14th, 2004, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Shadowx

So Paul wasn't being Christ like when he blinded a man? :chuckle:
No...I think ..you are asking people to be like you..



Yeah see above.


Paul said, "Be ye followers of me, even as I have followed Christ"
Was he not following Christ when he used violence? I suspect that you would only agree that he was following Christ, when he was following you...

follow me and i will have to turn around and beat you silly.

follow Jesus

brother Willi
September 14th, 2004, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by Shadowx

I don't think you and wil agree on a whole lot..
He doesn't agree with the idea of self defense as being Christ like, as far as I can tell.
I'm happy for your family that you believe it IS Christ like to love them enough to try to protect them..and that you do agree some wars are Godly.
God wants us to use our brains.
if you see danger, walk the other way.
would you jump of a building and think "God will save me"

will you play with fire?





I never said talking couldn't be effective before hand, you have to size up the situation. Use wisdom. As for what is worse, "A dead father or a raped child" "No greater love does a man have then to lay down his life for a friend..." How much more your daughter?However, Most gun owning homes don't have to deal with this dilemma.
i have no guns, i sold them all right before 1/1/2000.
all those nuts wantin guns, it made me sick.
i should have distroyed those guns, not sold them.
do not think oi would sit by and do nothing.
but violence is not an option.
i would rather offer my life.




Yes, I use the same verses as part of an overview to show that self defense is Christ like. But that when Jesus rebukes peter it's because his self defense was out of place. Jesus was on a mission. It wasn't the first time He rebuked peter for being contrary to it...( "This shall never happen to you!!" Jesus said, "Get behind me Satan thou saverest not the things of God")
Violence can be both Godly and ungodly...Unfortunately people like Wili take these verses and apply them in every situation: "See Jesus condemns the use of weapons!!"
"Can't use a gun/sword to protect your family!!" "It's a sin!, Jesus said so in the Bible!!"
WHEN, that is the question.
if you steal?
if you hit me?
let me tell you all something.
when i was young, a drunk neighbor came over one thanksgiving day.
he came up, grabbed my wife, and kissed her.
i didnt like it, and she most deffinitely didnt.

then he wanted a kiss from my sister in law.

i got his attention
i ask him why hes actin like a nut.

he wanted to party
he had no car
so i drove him to a party

later i got the hear (NOT FROM MY WIFE)
"why didnt you beat the crap out of him"

was peace not brought back to my home by my actions?

what if i did smack him?

would i have peace in my home?

would i have peace with my neighbor?





Wily, do you think Chileice post here should be post of the day? :)
He says it's not always a sin to kill, that in some situations it's ok to kill other people. He says it's not a sin to invade other nations under certain circumstances..(help a friend etc etc)

Chileice got my POTD for understanding my opinion.

we are now talkin bout things arent we?

did i once study matial arts, YEP.

i was not always who i am today.

judging from some here, i would have been stoned to death many years ago.

judgeing from some today, would result in the same fate.

think about that.



Preemption, like violence, can be moral or immoral. If Russia wants to preempt some radical groups, or nations that are *actively* seeking to murder off it's population, I support them. Would it be ungodly/immoral for them to go after the remnants of the group that just murderer hundreds of their people? I would be very happy if Russia and any other nation joined our efforts to kill off Islamic murdering, raping, torturing fanatics.

then what?
kill all that dont agree with you?




Would you compare Israelis preemptive strike on saddems nukes as morally equivalent with Al-Qaeda preemptive attack on us?
Or as morally equivalent as the Arab nations (Including Egypt's) attack on them in 1948, just for being Jewish?

Israel chose Barrabas

you can , or you can choose Jesus.




Wily, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR...If he is being attacked or raped, it's not ungodly for you to show him some love and help him out..
You might condemn me for it, but if one of your family members was being raped, I would do what I could, including physical violence to stop it..

I will just take my chances that Jesus won't condemn me to hell for it..

Godbless,
Danny
dont kill for me

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Last attempt...
Wilber, was Paul being unchristian like when he blinded a man?
Yes or no.

I would imagine you allow for honesty in your spiritual realm..
So please just answer yes or no..

"so i drove him to a party"

That was very "loving" of you towards him..
..I think maybe you got a contact high..that is still with you..

"then what?
kill all that dont agree with you?"

Stop attacking some absurd argument I never made.
It's not me killing, it's you.., with your more spiritual then God doctrines..In not supporting the death penalty for filthy murderers, by default you support it for their victims..You can't oppose the death penalty you can only misappropriate it. I want murderers put to death, you want their victims put to death..

I think you should stop trying to be more "spiritual" then God.
I hope no one ever reaches the spiritual plain you are on..

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 12:42 PM
"Wily, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR...If he is being attacked or raped, it's not ungodly for you to show him some love and help him out..
You might condemn me for it, but if one of your family members was being raped, I would do what I could, including physical violence to stop it.."

I will just take my chances that Jesus won't condemn me to hell for it..

"dont kill for me"

If you let your family be raped and murdererd before your eyes and rebuked the person trying to stop it with physical force, it wouldn't be the person trying to stop it who was the killer, it would be you.

brother Willi
September 14th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

"Wily, LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR...If he is being attacked or raped, it's not ungodly for you to show him some love and help him out..
You might condemn me for it, but if one of your family members was being raped, I would do what I could, including physical violence to stop it.."

I will just take my chances that Jesus won't condemn me to hell for it..

"dont kill for me"

If you let your family be raped and murdererd before your eyes and rebuked the person trying to stop it with physical force, it wouldn't be the person trying to stop it who was the killer, it would be you.
i understand your point.
to stop a killing is good.

just as to break the sabbath is justified, if you save your dog.

shall i kill?

trust me, i have questioned all this for many years.

if i stop a fist with my hand, that is a matter of skill, shall i practice and make ready for that day?
i did for many years.

at what point shall i kill?
at what point do i kick the neighbors rear?
do not both of these options provoke futher fighting?
the only way to win a war, is to deny it.

shall you stop the fist with your hand?
maybe
shall you strike back?

brother Willi
September 14th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

Last attempt...
Wilber, was Paul being unchristian like when he blinded a man?
Yes or no.

I would imagine you allow for honesty in your spiritual realm..
So please just answer yes or no..

"so i drove him to a party"

That was very "loving" of you towards him..
..I think maybe you got a contact high..that is still with you..

"then what?
kill all that dont agree with you?"

Stop attacking some absurd argument I never made.
It's not me killing, it's you.., with your more spiritual then God doctrines..In not supporting the death penalty for filthy murderers, by default you support it for their victims..You can't oppose the death penalty you can only misappropriate it. I want murderers put to death, you want their victims put to death..

I think you should stop trying to be more "spiritual" then God.
I hope no one ever reaches the spiritual plain you are on..
heres a new idea for you

Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Matthew 6:15
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Lucky
September 14th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

the only way to win a war, is to deny it.
:Cyrus:

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Wilis Idea of punishment for someone sexually assaulting his wife..

Quick, take the drunken bum to a party..where he can get smashed, put other peoples lives at risk and brag to all his drunken bum friends on where they can go for free sexual activities..

That should scare the hell out of anyone and secure his wife from any future assaults...

Thanks to wily and his kind, more crimes will take place..
The only people wily wants punished are the innocent...

Congrats..

Chileice
September 14th, 2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Shadowx

Wilis Idea of punishment for someone sexually assaulting his wife..

Quick, take the drunken bum to a party..where he can get smashed, put other peoples lives at risk and brag to all his drunken bum friends on where they can go for free sexual activities..

That should scare the hell out of anyone and secure his wife from any future assaults...

Thanks to wily and his kind, more crimes will take place..
The only people wily wants punished are the innocent...

Congrats..

Come on! You are pretty heavy on his case. I think the original point of this thread was that you can't justify war using Jesus' words and up to now I think Willi has won the battle. I have heard no credible arguments to justify war... especially a preemptive one with Jesus' words.

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Then why do you support war? If Jesus doesn't?
lol..How about if I use your OWN arguments to justify war...

You 2 crack me up...

BillyBob
September 14th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Jesus has nothing to do with the war against terrorism. If Jesus wants to get involved, I suggest he go talk to the Muslims and convince them to stop blowing up our stuff, because if they don't stop, we will kill them.

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 07:48 PM
He is involved, many military personal are Christians.
And they are fighting because they believe it is Godly, christ like..
He is just not involved in this war through the lives of Christians like Wily.

Jesus has to do with it through the lives of Christians who are helping to kill those filthy murderers. (Who are condemned by other Christians..)

The problem is, Jesus, (God's way) is not in the hearts of those murderers, if so..there wouldn't be any terrorism. And allowing them(As some Christians believe) to continue murdering us off, isn't going to change that.

BillyBob
September 14th, 2004, 08:03 PM
I have no problem killing them.

Delmar
September 14th, 2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

you see no other way but war?

tell me Jesus would say "go kill em George" This Jesus you talk about must really be ashamed of the God of the Old Testament!

Shadowx
September 14th, 2004, 08:58 PM
lol!...

Delmar
September 15th, 2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

using only the words of Jesus, justify war.
can you?


Using only the words of Jesus, justify government involvement in any issues besides law enforcement /defense and infrastructure.

Can you?

JoyfulRook
September 15th, 2004, 11:49 AM
1 Samuel 15:18
and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.'

Do you disbelieve GOD or only believe Christ's Words?

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by deardelmar

This Jesus you talk about must really be ashamed of the God of the Old Testament!
NOPE

im not ashamed odf the old west in the USA

it was a different time.
i hope one day you join me in the New

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

1 Samuel 15:18
and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.'

Do you disbelieve GOD or only believe Christ's Words?

you are confused.

THAT WAS THEN

THIS IS NOW.

what does Jesus say?


Matthew 5:1
When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.

Matthew 5:2
He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,

Matthew 5:3
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:4
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

Matthew 5:5
"Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

Matthew 5:6
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

Matthew 5:7
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

Matthew 5:8
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Matthew 5:9
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Matthew 5:10
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:11
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:13
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

Matthew 5:15
nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

Matthew 5:16
"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Matthew 5:18
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Matthew 5:19
"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20
"For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:21
"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'

Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:23
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,

Matthew 5:24
leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering.

Matthew 5:25
"Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.

Matthew 5:26
"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

Matthew 5:27
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 5:29
"If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30
"If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:31
"It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE';

Matthew 5:32
but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 5:33
"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'

Matthew 5:34
"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

Matthew 5:35
or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.

Matthew 5:36
"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.

Matthew 5:37
"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'

Matthew 5:39
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Matthew 5:40
"If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.

Matthew 5:41
"Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.

Matthew 5:42
"Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 5:47
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:10 PM
do you understand the circle of war?

i kill you

your brother kills me

my brother kills your brother

your friends kill my brother

my friends kill your friends

ETC

ETC


END THE CYCLE!!!

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

NOPE

im not ashamed odf the old west in the USA

it was a different time.
i hope one day you join me in the New

Yeah, now we have terrorists who hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings. They have the means to aquire WMD including nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. They mean to kill all of us if we let them.

Welcome to the 'New'.

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

do you understand the circle of war?

i kill you

your brother kills me

my brother kills your brother

your friends kill my brother

my friends kill your friends

ETC

ETC


END THE CYCLE!!!

That's the plan, KILL ALL THE TERRORISTS!

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
That's the plan, KILL ALL THE TERRORISTS! Problem is, the definition of "terrorist" keeps expanding. Before long it'll be "everybody who isn't like me".

Actually, that's the definition already, according to the Bushies...

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
They mean to kill all of us if we let them.Maybe your dog will be their first victim... :chuckle:

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Problem is, the definition of "terrorist" keeps expanding. Before long it'll be "everybody who isn't like me".

Actually, that's the definition already, according to the Bushies...
YEP

what some dont seem to understand is

they are terrorising us

BECAUSE WE DID IT TO THEM

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Maybe your dog will be their first victim... :chuckle:


:madmad:

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

YEP

what some dont seem to understand is

they are terrorising us

BECAUSE WE DID IT TO THEM

Oh yeah, I almost forgot that time a bunch of Christians hijacked an Arab plane and flew it into their buildings. :doh:

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Oh yeah, I almost forgot that time a bunch of Christians hijacked an Arab plane and flew it into their buildings. :doh:

Billy, you dont get it.

im not sayin their right

im sayin

THE BELIEVE THEY HAVE JUST CAUSE

JUST CAUSE

isnt that your battle cry Billy?

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

:madmad:
i dont like your dog

im gonna kill it, and make you watch!


now what Billy???

you gonna kill me, or my dog?

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Billy, you dont get it.

im not sayin their right

im sayin

THE BELIEVE THEY HAVE JUST CAUSE

JUST CAUSE

isnt that your battle cry Billy? Save your energy, Willi; your plaintive entreaties fall upon deaf ears.

Power is all that BB and people like him understand; power, money and violence.

Those thing are, after all, the true driving forces in the world...

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i dont like your dog

im gonna kill it, and make you watch!


now what Billy???

you gonna kill me, or my dog?

You, why would I kill your dog?

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Billy, you dont get it.

im not sayin their right

im sayin

THE BELIEVE THEY HAVE JUST CAUSE

JUST CAUSE

isnt that your battle cry Billy?

Then we'll let bombs and missles settle it.

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

1 Samuel 15:18
and the LORD sent you on a mission, and said, 'Go and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are exterminated.'

Do you disbelieve GOD or only believe Christ's Words? Too bad the Christians won't take that verse to heart when dealing with unbelievers.

They might actually accomplish something if they would...

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Too bad the Christians won't take that verse to heart when dealing with unbelievers.

They might actually accomplish something if they would...
can i kill Billy?

:D

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

can i kill Billy?

:D

You are welcome to try......

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Save your energy, Willi; your plaintive entreaties fall upon deaf ears.

Power is all that BB and people like him understand; power, money and violence.

Those thing are, after all, the true driving forces in the world...
most likely true.

but i dont post just for him to read

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

You are welcome to try......

why?

to give you a reason to start war?

the only way to win a war, is to deny a war:D

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Save your energy, Willi; your plaintive entreaties fall upon deaf ears.

Power is all that BB and people like him understand; power, money and violence.

Those thing are, after all, the true driving forces in the world...

You know better than that, Gerald. We have had enough conversations that you have absolutely no reason to misrepresent me in such a way. :down:

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

why?

to give you a reason to start war?

the only way to win a war, is to deny a war:D

You mean, 'The only way to avoid war is to allow yourself to be conquered'.

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

You mean, 'The only way to avoid war is to allow yourself to be conquered'.

NOPE
and
YEP

what did the Jews want?
a military messiah?

what did they get?

smeone who said be a good slave.

but you dont see that

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
You know better than that, Gerald. We have had enough conversations that you have absolutely no reason to misrepresent me in such a way. :down: I'm the Resident Fiend. It's what I do. :D

Certainly you're not going to deny that power, money and violence are the true driving forces in the world, are you?

If so, you give human beings a lot more credit than I do...

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

NOPE
and
YEP

what did the Jews want?
a military messiah?

what did they get?

smeone who said be a good slave.

but you dont see that

The US isn't a Jewish state, maybe you should run your peacenik suggestions by the Israeli's and see what they say?

Gerald
September 15th, 2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

The US isn't a Jewish state, maybe you should run your peacenik suggestions by the Israeli's and see what they say? Well, the Israelis are a bunch of savages, anyway. As if they needed an excuse to knife somebody...

Delmar
September 15th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

You, why would I kill your dog? You really don't get it do you billy bob. Well er um:think: neither do I ,I guess but that's just beside the point. Jesus never talked about killing your dog now did he.

Delmar
September 15th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

Billy, you dont get it.

im not sayin their right

im sayin

THE BELIEVE THEY HAVE JUST CAUSE

JUST CAUSE

isnt that your battle cry Billy? Did sombody say beleiving in your cause makes it just? Having a just cause makes it just you dinnger!

philosophizer
September 15th, 2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

NOPE

im not ashamed odf the old west in the USA

it was a different time.
i hope one day you join me in the New

BrotherWilli, please! That is an utterly miserable analogy.

You're saying that Jesus is not ashamed of God in the Old Testament just as you are not ashamed of the "old west" in America.

So by that reasoning, America either did no wrong in the 1800's or God used to make mistakes in the Old Testament.

Please, either rethink your position or come up with a better argument cuz that one doesn't work.

Delmar
September 15th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by philosophizer

So by that reasoning, America either did no wrong in the 1800's or God used to make mistakes in the Old Testament.

I guess the anger management class paid off!

Chileice
September 15th, 2004, 06:44 PM
The fact is someone has to back down for wars to end. Jesus was willing to back down and was the Saviour of mankind. That was his victory. I know that very few can see self-sacrifice as a means to an end, but it has worked rather dramatically in the few cases it was used: early Christians, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr. But most people, Christians included, want no part of a plan that might include self-sacrifice. If the imps that run governments actually went out on the battlefield, like they did in the beloved OT now that might be a different story. But nowdays when Saddaam and George send waves of impressionable youth to do their dirty work it is just a curse on humanity.

I know some of Willi's metaphors are strange and I know he is fired up on this issue to the point he is getting to sound like a one-tune trumpet, but he is saying some things most of you are REFUSING to hear. It is not that you are not capable of hearing, you are unwilling to entertain the thought that the mightiest of nations might be the nation that becomes servant of all.

Does it sound far-fetched? Of course it does, because the enemies are real and we can't imagine them backing down so we keep upping the stakes. But someday, maybe in the lifetime of you younger folks, you may see the demise of America, that her very constant use of power may be what brings the wrath of the nations against her. Just like what happens to school bullies. Someday the wimp gets enough and laces the bully right back.

Proverbs 15.1 might work just as well for nations as it does for individuals. But we will never know as long as we live in denial about Jesus' pacifist way of dealing with people. Were that not the case he would not have suffered "with this sinful and adulterous generation" but would have brought it to a ringing halt. Instead he went to a cold cruel cross as a common criminal to die for the very idiots he came to save... like you and me. Praise God he didn't chose violence but rather chose to be violated (not in the sexual sense) for you and me.

I know I am also going to fall on deaf ears but I cannot help but think Willi is a bit like the prophet crying out in the wilderness and everyone else is plugging their ears and running screaming at the top of their lungs so as no to have to listen.

BillyBob
September 15th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Hint:

The terrorists aren't gonna back down.


Hint #2:

We better not back down either or else we will all end up dead or speaking Arabic.

However Chileice, you might look good in a burka.........

SOTK
September 15th, 2004, 07:19 PM
:chuckle:

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

The fact is someone has to back down for wars to end. Jesus was willing to back down and was the Saviour of mankind. That was his victory. I know that very few can see self-sacrifice as a means to an end, but it has worked rather dramatically in the few cases it was used: early Christians, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr. But most people, Christians included, want no part of a plan that might include self-sacrifice. If the imps that run governments actually went out on the battlefield, like they did in the beloved OT now that might be a different story. But nowdays when Saddaam and George send waves of impressionable youth to do their dirty work it is just a curse on humanity.

I know some of Willi's metaphors are strange and I know he is fired up on this issue to the point he is getting to sound like a one-tune trumpet, but he is saying some things most of you are REFUSING to hear. It is not that you are not capable of hearing, you are unwilling to entertain the thought that the mightiest of nations might be the nation that becomes servant of all.

Does it sound far-fetched? Of course it does, because the enemies are real and we can't imagine them backing down so we keep upping the stakes. But someday, maybe in the lifetime of you younger folks, you may see the demise of America, that her very constant use of power may be what brings the wrath of the nations against her. Just like what happens to school bullies. Someday the wimp gets enough and laces the bully right back.

Proverbs 15.1 might work just as well for nations as it does for individuals. But we will never know as long as we live in denial about Jesus' pacifist way of dealing with people. Were that not the case he would not have suffered "with this sinful and adulterous generation" but would have brought it to a ringing halt. Instead he went to a cold cruel cross as a common criminal to die for the very idiots he came to save... like you and me. Praise God he didn't chose violence but rather chose to be violated (not in the sexual sense) for you and me.

I know I am also going to fall on deaf ears but I cannot help but think Willi is a bit like the prophet crying out in the wilderness and everyone else is plugging their ears and running screaming at the top of their lungs so as no to have to listen.

Chileice:thumb:
thank you, and God bless you:)

we must remember
most of the Jews were waiting for a Messiah that will kick some Roman hind end
they got this guy talkin about peace, forgiving,told them to be good slaves, trust in God , etc.

the Jews blew it, they listened to the high priests.

the high preists killed our Messiah

and today, Christians have made Jesus into the Roman killer the Jews wanted

brother Willi
September 15th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Hint:

The terrorists aren't gonna back down.


Hint #2:

We better not back down either or else we will all end up dead or speaking Arabic.

However Chileice, you might look good in a burka.........

Billy, you said if i killed your dog and made you watch, you would kill me, not my dog.

BILLY, you killed my cat!!!

you went out of your way, drove of the road, and killed my cat walking along the road.

dont tell me you didnt, you admitted some time ago you have done this, others have admitted doing the same.

please PM me your adress so i can kill you.
nevermind, il find you.


GET THE IDEA???

brother Willi
September 16th, 2004, 02:47 PM
so i am hated

Knight
September 16th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

so i am hated I think if we hated you we would simply extend general apathy towards you. :(

Delmar
September 16th, 2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Chileice


I know I am also going to fall on deaf ears but I cannot help but think Willi is a bit like the prophet crying out in the wilderness and everyone else is plugging their ears and running screaming at the top of their lungs so as no to have to listen. did you say something?

BillyBob
September 16th, 2004, 05:11 PM
*hands over ears* La la la la la la la *hands over ears*

brother Willi
September 16th, 2004, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

*hands over ears* La la la la la la la *hands over ears* :doh:

BillyBob
September 16th, 2004, 09:45 PM
:bannana:

Crow
September 16th, 2004, 09:56 PM
No hablo Engles.

BillyBob
September 16th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Si!

Knight
September 16th, 2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Si! Some might even say... "sigh" :sigh:

Poly
September 17th, 2004, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by Knight

Some might even say... "sigh" :sigh:
That would be me! :nono:

Lighthouse
September 18th, 2004, 01:44 AM
Crow, you misspelled "Ingles."

Crow
September 18th, 2004, 05:54 AM
No hablo EspaƱol.

Rolf Ernst
September 19th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Brother Willi-- how can I justify a preemptive war, especially on such threads of an excuse?

Do a google search for "jus belli" At that location, there is a page which researches the long history of the sentiments of nations concerning what the grounds are for a "just war." Consideration is given to the views of both secularists and theologians; and neither of them, in the history of "jus belli" philosophy, approve of what we have been doing in Iraq.

The neocons Bush put in his administration are leading America into a colossal national catastrophe; and don't begin to think this is about WMD or oil. It is about the aim Thomas Barnett spoke of--"decades of war will be necessary to assimilate non-integrated nations into the global world order." Barnett is in great demand on the D.C. talk circuit.
High ranking military and political figures sit before him in rapt wonder as he describes his vision.

Think of it! He sees decades of making war against sovereign nations simply because they must be "assimilated" into the global world order.

To those of you who have scoffed at the "conspiratorialist" idea of "the New world Order":--- "Global World Order," or "global governance" mean the same thing--the new world order; the rule over all nations by the atheistic, socialistic United Nations!

Here is some news for those of you who have yukked it up over the "Conspiritorialist nut cases" who have been warning you about what is NOW just outside YOUR door--when men's motives, mindsets, words, and actions provide irrefutable evidence that they are set upon a certain course, THAT IS not A THEORY!!

You have been yukking it up while they have been executing their plan; and you haven't even taken the little bit of effort it takes to do research on the computer. You will blindly vote for Bush or Kerry, and either one will keep moving into the global world order as swiftly as possible. Either one will sign the FTAA treaty early next year. That will effectively put our national sovereignty in subjection to the multinational interests of nations in this hemisphere. Either one will sign a national draft law before summer, and either will keep the high tech military force moving to bring into subjection every nation that would not otherwise join the global world order.

You scoffers just keep laughing!! Soon, they will be coming for your sons and daughters because war requires fodder for the cannons.

elected4ever
September 19th, 2004, 08:39 PM
Rolf Ernst

The neocons Bush put in his administration are leading America into a colossal national catastrophe; and don't begin to think this is about WMD or oil. It is about the aim Thomas Barnett spoke of--"decades of war will be necessary to assimilate non-integrated nations into the global world order." Barnett is in great demand on the D.C. talk circuit.

e4e

:up: But of course Im just a conspiricy nutt:juggle: :bang:

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Brother Willi-- how can I justify a preemptive war, especially on such threads of an excuse?
i understand
i sure cant justify wars
Jesus never justified wars

i did this thread to prove this to my fellow Christians

how many understand it?




Do a google search for "jus belli" At that location, there is a page which researches the long history of the sentiments of nations concerning what the grounds are for a "just war." Consideration is given to the views of both secularists and theologians; and neither of them, in the history of "jus belli" philosophy, approve of what we have been doing in Iraq.
i cant justify any war
but yes these wars Bush pushed are total insanity




The neocons Bush put in his administration are leading America into a colossal national catastrophe;
no arguement from me


and don't begin to think this is about WMD or oil. It is about the aim Thomas Barnett spoke of--"decades of war will be necessary to assimilate non-integrated nations into the global world order." Barnett is in great demand on the D.C. talk circuit.
High ranking military and political figures sit before him in rapt wonder as he describes his vision.

Think of it! He sees decades of making war against sovereign nations simply because they must be "assimilated" into the global world order.

To those of you who have scoffed at the "conspiratorialist" idea of "the New world Order":--- "Global World Order," or "global governance" mean the same thing--the new world order; the rule over all nations by the atheistic, socialistic United Nations!

Here is some news for those of you who have yukked it up over the "Conspiritorialist nut cases" who have been warning you about what is NOW just outside YOUR door--when men's motives, mindsets, words, and actions provide irrefutable evidence that they are set upon a certain course, THAT IS not A THEORY!!

You have been yukking it up while they have been executing their plan; and you haven't even taken the little bit of effort it takes to do research on the computer. You will blindly vote for Bush or Kerry, and either one will keep moving into the global world order as swiftly as possible. Either one will sign the FTAA treaty early next year. That will effectively put our national sovereignty in subjection to the multinational interests of nations in this hemisphere. Either one will sign a national draft law before summer, and either will keep the high tech military force moving to bring into subjection every nation that would not otherwise join the global world order.

You scoffers just keep laughing!! Soon, they will be coming for your sons and daughters because war requires fodder for the cannons.
i see it
no arguement from me

elected4ever
September 19th, 2004, 09:39 PM
brother Willi, I don't think pacifism can be justified from scripture. If that is what you are saying, then I think you are wrong but many men have given their lives to secure the right for you to be wrong.

No war sense WW11 has been a legal war in the sense that its legality can be justified constitutionally. All wars that we have fought sense then were to test the technology to see if it could be improved. The goal is to overwhelm the enemy and force compliance with the world system.

One of the last bastions that stand against the new world order is Islam. The United States is the enforcer or policeman that forces compliance. The United Nations is not the New World Order. The New World order is run by the International Bankers and what countries they cannot buy they will use military force to force compliance. The Armed Forces of the United States are the big stick welded like a club to intimidate the non compliant countries.

:e4e:

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi, I don't think pacifism can be justified from scripture. If that is what you are saying, then I think you are wrong but many men have given their lives to secure the right for you to be wrong.

No war sense WW11 has been a legal war in the sense that its legality can be justified constitutionally. All wars that we have fought sense then were to test the technology to see if it could be improved. The goal is to overwhelm the enemy and force compliance with the world system.

One of the last bastions that stand against the new world order is Islam. The United States is the enforcer or policeman that forces compliance. The United Nations is not the New World Order. The New World order is run by the International Bankers and what countries they cannot buy they will use military force to force compliance. The Armed Forces of the United States are the big stick welded like a club to intimidate the non compliant countries.

:e4e:
i see that happening
but can you justify war using the Word of Jesus?

that is what id like someone to do, so far no one has

elected4ever
September 19th, 2004, 09:59 PM
brother Willi
but can you justify war using the Word of Jesus?

e4e
No more that you can justify not going to war by the same words. We ought not to put words in Jesus's mouth by assigning meaning that is not indicated by those words. No were does Jesus say that it is always wrong to go to war.

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi

e4e
No more that you can justify not going to war by the same words. We ought not to put words in Jesus's mouth by assigning meaning that is not indicated by those words. No were does Jesus say that it is always wrong to go to war.

are these the signs of the end

Matthew 24:6
"You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end.

Matthew 24:7
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.

Matthew 24:8
"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.

Matthew 24:9
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.

brother Willi
September 19th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

how does this fit war?

elected4ever
September 20th, 2004, 04:43 AM
brother Willi
how does this fit war?

e4e
Those verses have nothing to do with war. They have everything to do with keeping the perfect law of God. Do you keep the perfect law of God? If you are under the perfect law of God you are not in Christ and grace has no effect in your life.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 05:41 AM
Originally posted by elected4ever

brother Willi

e4e
Those verses have nothing to do with war. They have everything to do with keeping the perfect law of God. Do you keep the perfect law of God? If you are under the perfect law of God you are not in Christ and grace has no effect in your life.

can you explain better for me please?

im confused by what you said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
when was this correct?
this sounds like war can be just
Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


and doesnt this give a new direction?

how can i love my enemy, and be at war with them?

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

elected4ever
September 20th, 2004, 06:20 AM
When Jesus was on earth He taught the perfect law of God. When he said, "You have heard it said," he referenced how man had changed the law to suit himself. The people who said this were changing the law. Jesus came to fulfill the Law of God and He did so. When we accept Christ the Perfect law of God is fulfilled in us through Christ and we are no longer under law but under grace. The Law of God brings death to man and under the law all men stand condemned but under grace we have received life. To be under law is to deny the life that Christ has brought to us. To use the law as an an excuse for the Christian not to fulfill his civic duty is to change the law to fit our own purposes just as our present government has changed the law of the the US government illegally so they can execute there plans in defiance of the law. We are commanded to obey the authorities that have been placed over us. Just as Christians obeyed Hitler so the Christians obey our government and seek to live peaceably and with honor.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by elected4ever

When Jesus was on earth He taught the perfect law of God. When he said, "You have heard it said," he referenced how man had changed the law to suit himself. The people who said this were changing the law. Jesus came to fulfill the Law of God and He did so. When we accept Christ the Perfect law of God is fulfilled in us through Christ and we are no longer under law but under grace. The Law of God brings death to man and under the law all men stand condemned but under grace we have received life. To be under law is to deny the life that Christ has brought to us. To use the law as an an excuse for the Christian not to fulfill his civic duty is to change the law to fit our own purposes just as our present government has changed the law of the the US government illegally so they can execute there plans in defiance of the law. We are commanded to obey the authorities that have been placed over us. Just as Christians obeyed Hitler so the Christians obey our government and seek to live peaceably and with honor.

i agree Jesus would have lived and died by hitlers law.

if hitler said "pick up a gun, and shoot my enemies" would Jesus have killed?

elected4ever
September 20th, 2004, 07:31 AM
Why bring in a straw man? Man can only speculate. He has no way of knowing. That is a vain pursuit.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 08:19 AM
Originally posted by elected4ever

Why bring in a straw man? Man can only speculate. He has no way of knowing. That is a vain pursuit.
i think this "strawman" needs to be looked at.

can i be Christian and not first look at the life and Word of Jesus first?

hitler made law.
does Jesus want me to obay the law, if it dont agree with his Word?

elected4ever
September 20th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Jesus did.Heads of State are minesters of God

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by elected4ever

Jesus did.Heads of State are minesters of God

saddam,hitler,etc...?

then do we not fight the minesters of God when we go to war?

Jabez
September 20th, 2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

i think this "strawman" needs to be looked at.

can i be Christian and not first look at the life and Word of Jesus first?

hitler made law.
does Jesus want me to obay the law, if it dont agree with his Word?

Matthew 22
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Jabez

Matthew 22
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

do i kill for Caesar?

Jabez
September 20th, 2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by brother Willi

do i kill for Caesar?

If you are a Guard for him,and were commanded to do so,i suppose you would.Now this getts touchy to me.We are told we must obey the law,at what point to we break that?

brother Willi
September 20th, 2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by Jabez

If you are a Guard for him,and were commanded to do so,i suppose you would.Now this getts touchy to me.We are told we must obey the law,at what point to we break that?
thats a good question

i know you went to war, so i value your opinion here

smothers
September 21st, 2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by brother Willi

is Jesus a "nut case"???

Jesus would probably have lived a quiet life as a carpenter if he took anti-psychotic drugs.