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Poly
May 30th, 2004, 01:19 PM
As many of you already know (because I've mentioned it only a hundred times), I am a former Calvinist. I was all of my life up until about 6 years ago. The church I grew up in was extremely hardcore/predestination. I look back now and realize that so much of what I said I believed about God, I really believed because men, whom I thought were extrememly wise, said it was true. I listened to how they interpreted scripture and took it as gold all the while saying that this is what I believed because I've checked it out with scripture. I'd have to say that 75% of the church did this same thing. The other 25% were the ones who were doing the misinterpreting of scripture, telling the rest of how we should believe. We kept close ties with many other Reformed Baptist churches and they were no different. I knew all the arguments. I could clobber you with what I thought was the truth about Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. I regret that I was arrogant in my thinking yet I was always one of the ones preaching the loudest on what a humbling doctrine it was. One thing that stands out about a Reformed Baptist is that you'll always hear them say how humbling the sovereign grace message is. They say this because they are supposedly humbled at themselves being one of the "elect" that God chose to be saved. But in reality there is quite a bit of pride in a Reformed Baptist. They may be humbled by the fact that God chose them but they think highly of themselves that God supposedly revealed this truth of election to them. Some men wanted to come accross as intimidating in their supposed great knowledge. Especially when one Reformed Baptist church got together with another either at a conference or some kind of ministry. It was as if there was this underlying understanding of how we were special and stood out to God because we understood this profound doctrine and God must have entrusted us enough to reveal it to us. Of course no one would dare admit that they thought this way. And when we came across things that were contradictory in the bible to predestination and it couldn't be interpreted in such a way to fit the sovereign grace doctrine, then of course you simply brought in the old anthropomorphism argument. We always felt as if we were doing this great thing for God in accepting something that He put in scriptures which He intended all the while for us not to be able to understand. And all the while trying to maintain that we were "humbled". (Is this hitting home with any of you Reformed Baptists out there? NO, of course not. :rolleyes: )

Fortunately, I was faced with the question "Was God capable of giving man a complete and totally free will without any involvement of Himself in that will?" Of course this was an incredibly hard question for me to have to deal with so I avoided it for a long time. After all, the message of predestination was all I had known and it was ingrained in me since I was a child. If I denied that, then I would deny the very foundation that I thought made up my entire Christian walk. (not to mention I'd have to eat a lot of crow). But I couldn't avoid it any longer.

If what I was preaching, about God being omnipotent was really true, then I had to face the realization that allowing man his own will to choose his own path could NOT be beyond God. If it was then God could NOT be the powerful God I always said He was. This time I chose to diligently study the word for myself to see if I had been pursuaded to believe certain things about passages in the bible. After much time of digging and searching I saw how I had been wrong for so many years. And when I see a passage now where God says things like "Now I know", He really meant that He knew something at that time that he totally did not know before. I now think of God as even more powerful because I now realize that God will bring about His glory no matter what. I believe He can do this despite man's complete free will. And I don't mean "complete" as the Calvinist claims he believes yet feels it's totally controlled by God at the same time, I mean totally FREE will! THAT is what a True sovereign and powerful God is.

Lighthouse
May 31st, 2004, 12:36 AM
:thumb:

Lucky
May 31st, 2004, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Poly

And when we came across things that were contradictory in the bible to predestination and it couldn't be interpreted in such a way to fit the sovereign grace doctrine, then of course you simply brought in the old anthropomorphism argument.
Can you please explain what that means for me? I've heard it before, looked it up even, but I'm still not sure I get it.

Poly
May 31st, 2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Can you please explain what that means for me? I've heard it before, looked it up even, but I'm still not sure I get it.
God describes himself in ways that would be considered human form although we know He is not human. Like when it says "arm of the Lord" in Isaiah 51:9, it's talking of God showing His strength. We know that He doesn't have the arm that we are imagining when we picture this action but we get the point that is trying to be made over His greatness. This is considered anthropomorphism. But a Calvinist will give this definition to certain passages in the bible where it doesn't fit. For instance, they feel that when God says prior to the flood that "He regretted making man", it's just God speaking on our level. But if God cannot be moved, touched by or react to our emotions why is He trying to put this occurance in such a way that would make us think that He can? Again, His magnitude is great so it's fitting to put it in such terms as "stretching out His arm", or "arm of the Lord", but what is it that He is trying to convey to us by using such a picture that describes Him being moved and truly regretting something if everything is already planned in advance and fixed?

Hope this helps.

Knight
May 31st, 2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Poly

As many of you already know (because I've mentioned it only a hundred times), I am a former Calvinist. I was all of my life up until about 6 years ago. The church I grew up in was extremely hardcore/predestination. I look back now and realize that so much of what I said I believed about God, I really believed because men, whom I thought were extrememly wise, said it was true. I listened to how they interpreted scripture and took it as gold all the while saying that this is what I believed because I've checked it out with scripture. I'd have to say that 75% of the church did this same thing. The other 25% were the ones who were doing the misinterpreting of scripture, telling the rest of how we should believe. We kept close ties with many other Reformed Baptist churches and they were no different. I knew all the arguments. I could clobber you with what I thought was the truth about Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. I regret that I was arrogant in my thinking yet I was always one of the ones preaching the loudest on what a humbling doctrine it was. One thing that stands out about a Reformed Baptist is that you'll always hear them say how humbling the sovereign grace message is. They say this because they are supposedly humbled at themselves being one of the "elect" that God chose to be saved. But in reality there is quite a bit of pride in a Reformed Baptist. They may be humbled by the fact that God chose them but they think highly of themselves that God supposedly revealed this truth of election to them. Some men wanted to come accross as intimidating in their supposed great knowledge. Especially when one Reformed Baptist church got together with another either at a conference or some kind of ministry. It was as if there was this underlying understanding of how we were special and stood out to God because we understood this profound doctrine and God must have entrusted us enough to reveal it to us. Of course no one would dare admit that they thought this way. And when we came across things that were contradictory in the bible to predestination and it couldn't be interpreted in such a way to fit the sovereign grace doctrine, then of course you simply brought in the old anthropomorphism argument. We always felt as if we were doing this great thing for God in accepting something that He put in scriptures which He intended all the while for us not to be able to understand. And all the while trying to maintain that we were "humbled". (Is this hitting home with any of you Reformed Baptists out there? NO, of course not. :rolleyes: )

Fortunately, I was faced with the question "Was God capable of giving man a complete and totally free will without any involvement of Himself in that will?" Of course this was an incredibly hard question for me to have to deal with so I avoided it for a long time. After all, the message of predestination was all I had known and it was ingrained in me since I was a child. If I denied that, then I would deny the very foundation that I thought made up my entire Christian walk. (not to mention I'd have to eat a lot of crow). But I couldn't avoid it any longer.

If what I was preaching, about God being omnipotent was really true, then I had to face the realization that allowing man his own will to choose his own path could NOT be beyond God. If it was then God could NOT be the powerful God I always said He was. This time I chose to diligently study the word for myself to see if I had been pursuaded to believe certain things about passages in the bible. After much time of digging and searching I saw how I had been wrong for so many years. And when I see a passage now where God says things like "Now I know", He really meant that He knew something at that time that he totally did not know before. I now think of God as even more powerful because I now realize that God will bring about His glory no matter what. I believe He can do this despite man's complete free will. And I don't mean "complete" as the Calvinist claims he believes yet feels it's totally controlled by God at the same time, I mean totally FREE will! THAT is what a True sovereign and powerful God is. Excellent post. :up:

God_Is_Truth
May 31st, 2004, 10:52 PM
thanks for sharing Poly. i actually had never heard you say that you were a calvinist before. it's wonderful to read that you stopped just listening to other people's interpretations and started reading the word on your own.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

Lucky
May 31st, 2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Hope this helps.
It does. :)

Poly
June 1st, 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

thanks for sharing Poly. i actually had never heard you say that you were a calvinist before. it's wonderful to read that you stopped just listening to other people's interpretations and started reading the word on your own.

John 8:32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Very true, GiT. The above response to Lucky is a perfect example of seeking out the word for myself. It's reasoning out for yourself and being brave enough to admit, "Now wait a minute. That doesn't fit what I've been taught all these years." And that leads you to do more studying such as in Ephesians 1 where I had always been taught that this is huge in showing predestination to be true. And if you're told that by other people and happen to just scan the passage, then yeah, you might think this as well. But upon further investigation of the passage, when I read the whole context and not just the pointed verses that had been shown to me, I couldn't deny that God was not talking about individuals being predestined to be saved but about a people whom He would "gather to Himself" when the fullness of time came. It was clear to me that this passage had been misrepresented to me for so many years and that God was clearly speaking of the adoption of a people, who were not sons of God at one time and now the time had come to fullfill the "mystery" and now they were to be sons of God. It was astounding to me when I would see these kinds of revelations that I had missed because I was too prideful and basically too dumb in just believing those that I thought were wise in what they believed was scriptural.

Clete
June 6th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Poly,

Wow! I could almost have written that oppening post myself! I didn't go to a Baptist church at the time but there's probably not a dimes worth of difference theologically speaking between my old church and pretty much any Baptist church I know of (except for the one I'm attending now.)
Otherwise it sounds like you and I had a pretty similar experience.
For me it all started with Bob Enyart's T.V. show that was being aired in Tulsa at the time. At first I thought he was way too harsh but after a while I understood what was happening and that he wasn't playing around for the sake of the cameras. It became clear that Bob really cared about these knuckle heads that called into his show.
His willingness to care enough to tell the truth without blinking coupled with the fact that he never ever got stumped in a debate or even remotely acted as if anyone ever brought something up that was a challenge to him intellectually was what caused me to believe initially that this guy has got something figured out that I don't!
When The Plot came out, I ordered it immediately and read it twice within two days. It was like a cool glass of water in the desert! I couldn't get enough. It was if I had been groping around in the dark for years and suddenly someone lit a candle!
After that, it was off to the races. I have learned more from Bob's ministry in the few years I been aware of it than all my previous years as a Christian. And as I've been a Christian since I was in third grade and I am know almost 35 years old, that's saying quite a bit.
God bless Bob Enyart and his ministry!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Poly
June 6th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Poly,

Wow! I could almost have written that oppening post myself! I didn't go to a Baptist church at the time but there's probably not a dimes worth of difference theologically speaking between my old church and pretty much any Baptist church I know of (except for the one I'm attending now.)
Otherwise it sounds like you and I had a pretty similar experience.
For me it all started with Bob Enyart's T.V. show that was being aired in Tulsa at the time. At first I thought he was way too harsh but after a while I understood what was happening and that he wasn't playing around for the sake of the cameras. It became clear that Bob really cared about these knuckle heads that called into his show.
His willingness to care enough to tell the truth without blinking coupled with the fact that he never ever got stumped in a debate or even remotely acted as if anyone ever brought something up that was a challenge to him intellectually was what caused me to believe initially that this guy has got something figured out that I don't!
When The Plot came out, I ordered it immediately and read it twice within two days. It was like a cool glass of water in the desert! I couldn't get enough. It was if I had been groping around in the dark for years and suddenly someone lit a candle!
After that, it was off to the races. I have learned more from Bob's ministry in the few years I been aware of it than all my previous years as a Christian. And as I've been a Christian since I was in third grade and I am know almost 35 years old, that's saying quite a bit.
God bless Bob Enyart and his ministry!

Resting in Him,
Clete
Ok, this is just wierd. Now I could have nearly written this post myself even down to the location of where you watched it. :D And rather than reading the Plot, I ordered it on tape, planning to listen to it over time, maybe a little bit each day. HA! I sat straight through it in one evening. Then I went to hubby and said "you gotta listen to this!"
I owe much to Bob's ministry.

Turbo
June 6th, 2004, 09:54 PM
Have you "two" every seen Psycho? :shocked: :noid:

Poly
June 6th, 2004, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Have you "two" every seen Psycho?
:D

Maybe I need to see if "NarrowWay" posts under another name around here that I'm not aware of. :think:

jaguar_prince
June 7th, 2004, 12:28 AM
And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 2,22


Augustine (aren't we talking about "Confessions"?) was a Manichean for many years before he turned to Orthodox Christianity again. But Manicheism remained in his thought as an undercurrent, all the more insidious because it was hidden. Likewise, you don't grow up in a Calvinist environment without being conditioned by it very deeply. And in fact, although you may have rejected Calvin, you apparently didn't reject the Evangelical faith completely, which I think is a contradiction, for Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and Melanchton are all basically one. You seem to have settled for some mutilated form of Lutheranism without predestination, without realizing that by doing away with "bondage of the will" and predestination, you have in fact unsettled the whole system beyond repair. You are now driving a car without brakes, if I may venture this comparison.

You have certainly learned a lot but not enough to refrain from posting self-righteous, hateful, hysterical anti-homo tracts which neither heal nor spread light. If I may say so here, you still have a long way to go before becoming a true disciple of the cursed man hanging from the Tree of Life.

Jesus forgave the adulterous woman. And he forbade us to judge each other.

The trouble is that Christians, instead of remaining a handful of marginal, persecuted, laughed at people, people who don't lock their doors at night and even pat robbers on their shoulders and refuse to hand criminals to the police, people who refrain from taking oaths on the Bible and don't resist evil in any way, became the majority.

That is the point when everything went wrong with Jesus' message, for if you try to apply his rules to large social bodies there ensues a lot of evil. People should have the right to divorce. And if you don't have tribunals, violence will be unstoppable. Other rules went so much against the grain of conventional wisdom that people simply ditched them, preferring instead to follow good, old Jewish Torah. Indeed the Torah is a code of rules for a collectivity of average people while the Sermon on the Mount is meant for a few crazy exceptionally gifted individuals only.

So "Christians" had to keep an eye open while closing the other when applying Jesus' teachings. They closed their eyes on the question of voluntary poverty, on the question of mercy for sinners, on the question of oaths, on the question of non-violence in the face of evil, on the question of refusal to claim one's property, etc., etc.

But they opened their eyes wide open on the question of divorce and on "do not sin" in "John" 8. They opened their eyes like Jumbo Jet engines on the vociferations of Paul against homos and on the related verse in Leviticus while conveniently closing their eye on "Do not judge". And so on and on and on to the present awful mess.

But Jesus was speaking only for a few people who were willing to become outcasts and fools on the eve of the Great Transformation of the World.

The little improbably starry-eyed, mundane wisdom-denying, safety and success-indifferent flock of sheep became a big ponderous herd of self-righteous, judgmental hypocritical half-blind water-buffalos destroying everything under their hooves and polluting the whole atmosphere with their stinking discordant doctrinal farts, which they call the voice of the Holy Spirit !

Having said that, since it is possible to escape from the clutches of Calvin, it is certainly possible to stop being an irrational water-buffalo.

May God grant you to make this quantum leap soon !

Greetings,

JP

Poly
June 7th, 2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.
Mark 2,22


Augustine (aren't we talking about "Confessions"?) was a Manichean for many years before he turned to Orthodox....(blah, blah, blah,

That's an awful lot of judging for somebody who preaches against it.

You're just about the most despicable Calvinist I've come across yet because you try and use it to justify your homosexuality.

Lighthouse
June 7th, 2004, 11:45 PM
Maybe j_p should just change his sn to fagqueer_princess. Since he doesn't seem to mind that he's gay. :rolleyes:

Clete
June 8th, 2004, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince
You have certainly learned a lot but not enough to refrain from posting self-righteous, hateful, hysterical anti-homo tracts which neither heal nor spread light. If I may say so here, you still have a long way to go before becoming a true disciple of the cursed man hanging from the Tree of Life.

As you are a pervert, what I'm about to post gets terribly close to tossing pearls to the pigs but I can't resist.

Adam and Eve partook from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and where condemned because it. We (the rest of mankind) are condemned by the Law. Both the Law and The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil have a ministry of death because the Law is a fulfillment or a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
God (Jesus) removed the burden of the Law from us by nailing it to the Cross. He also undid the curse at the Tree by becoming a curse for us by hanging on a tree.
What is the point of all this?
Jesus died in our place on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not on the Tree of Life you knuckle head! Nobody dies on the Tree of LIFE!!!

Now, talk to me some more about how much I haven't learned! :rolleyes:

Crow
June 8th, 2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

As you are a pervert, what I'm about to post gets terribly close to tossing pearls to the pigs but I can't resist.

Adam and Eve partook from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and where condemned because it. We (the rest of mankind) are condemned by the Law. Both the Law and The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil have a ministry of death because the Law is a fulfillment or a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
God (Jesus) removed the burden of the Law from us by nailing it to the Cross. He also undid the curse at the Tree by becoming a curse for us by hanging on a tree.
What is the point of all this?
Jesus died in our place on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not on the Tree of Life you knuckle head! Nobody dies on the Tree of LIFE!!!

Now, talk to me some more about how much I haven't learned! :rolleyes:

:think: ....:chuckle: .....:idea:.....:ha:

:first: .....:darwinsm:

:crow2:

Poly
June 8th, 2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

As you are a pervert, what I'm about to post gets terribly close to tossing pearls to the pigs but I can't resist.

Adam and Eve partook from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and where condemned because it. We (the rest of mankind) are condemned by the Law. Both the Law and The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil have a ministry of death because the Law is a fulfillment or a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
God (Jesus) removed the burden of the Law from us by nailing it to the Cross. He also undid the curse at the Tree by becoming a curse for us by hanging on a tree.
What is the point of all this?
Jesus died in our place on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, not on the Tree of Life you knuckle head! Nobody dies on the Tree of LIFE!!!

Now, talk to me some more about how much I haven't learned! :rolleyes:
That was just....just....
:BRAVO:

Clete
June 8th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Poly or Crow,

Just out of curiosity...

On a scale from 1 to 100, how foundational would you say what I posted is to the Christian faith? (The higher the number the more foundational.)

And what percentage of Christians would you guess are aware of this teaching?

titan
June 8th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Poly or Crow,

Just out of curiosity...

On a scale from 1 to 100, how foundational would you say what I posted is to the Christian faith? (The higher the number the more foundational.)

And what percentage of Christians would you guess are aware of this teaching?

Clete:

I am a Christian and I have been for 21 years. I am unsure whether or not I get your point.

I certainly get ...

Christ paid the price for our failure to meet the law.

And

Now we no longer need to satisfy the law to have eternal life.

However it seems as if you were making some other point which went over my head. Please clarify.

Titan

firechyld
June 8th, 2004, 11:55 PM
God describes himself in ways that would be considered human form although we know He is not human. Like when it says "arm of the Lord" in Isaiah 51:9, it's talking of God showing His strength. We know that He doesn't have the arm that we are imagining when we picture this action but we get the point that is trying to be made over His greatness. This is considered anthropomorphism. But a Calvinist will give this definition to certain passages in the bible where it doesn't fit. For instance, they feel that when God says prior to the flood that "He regretted making man", it's just God speaking on our level. But if God cannot be moved, touched by or react to our emotions why is He trying to put this occurance in such a way that would make us think that He can? Again, His magnitude is great so it's fitting to put it in such terms as "stretching out His arm", or "arm of the Lord", but what is it that He is trying to convey to us by using such a picture that describes Him being moved and truly regretting something if everything is already planned in advance and fixed?

Hope this helps.

I've only just flicked through this thread, but i noticed this on the first page and thought I'd contribute.

The use of "hand" or "arm" to refer to God exerting power over something actually stems from the Hebrew... it's not anthropomorphism as such. The Hebrew words for "hand" and "arm" are very closely related to the word for power.

True anthropormorphism is essentially a metaphor... the English translation reads like that, with the imagery being of God literally stretching out an arm. The Hebrew doesn't contain this element, as the "arm" would be literally read as power.

It's basically a language idiom... thought someone might find that interesting.

Judaic-Christian writings are actually quite sparse on the anthropomorphism. It's one of the factors leading to the development of Lockard's Ladder.

Crow
June 9th, 2004, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Poly or Crow,

Just out of curiosity...

On a scale from 1 to 100, how foundational would you say what I posted is to the Christian faith? (The higher the number the more foundational.)

And what percentage of Christians would you guess are aware of this teaching?

I'd say 100%. It was very basic.

I'd say about 2% or less understand that the Law was not salvation but damnation.

jaguar_prince
June 9th, 2004, 04:16 AM
As you are a pervert, what I'm about to post gets terribly close to tossing pearls to the pigs but I can't resist.

Go and learn what that meaneth:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, sexual perverts who lie in bed with males, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And I am heterosexual.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

jaguar_prince
June 9th, 2004, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Poly

That's an awful lot of judging for somebody who preaches against it.

I'm just doing the same as Jesus, my dear Jezebel:

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Jhn 8:15-16

This is called fruitful contradiction...


You're just about the most despicable Calvinist I've come across yet because you try and use it to justify your homosexuality.

I a Calvinist? Your reading comprehension must be pretty low, Delilah. I reject everything that even remotely smacks of the foul, demonic Reformation.

By the way, I wanted to tell you that unless you reject everything that is related to the Reformation (of which Calvinism is but one offshoot), you will end up driving a car with oars on it. You cannot simply ditch one doctrine and keep the rest. Each system is an organic whole.

Am I despicable? Then let God despise me! You have no right to despise, for it is written in your holy book:

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

And again:

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Although you all have despised me and murdered me in your heart, let me give you a piece of advice in brotherly love:

Mat 7:1-2

Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In other words, make sure that you become absolutely impeccable before you die because if you are not, if there is the slightest trace of sin in you, and remember that even the faintest lustful imagination is tantamount to outright adultery, God will judge with the same severity that you have judged me, me and all my brothers and sisters.

And don't say:"Jesus has covered my sins". He hasn't.

As the quote above makes perfectly clear, He covers only the sins of those who never judge their neighbor.

And don't dredge up some quote that says that we should denounce evil. One quote by Paul doesn't cancel out a whole string of quotes by Jesus and John.

And don't brandish Leviticus 20: it refers only to anal sex in the context of temple prostitution.

And don't thrust on me Paul's fulminations in Romans: they refer only to people whose whole life is focused on pleasure-seeking in endless sexual orgies.

The fact is that the Bible says nothing against loving another person of the same sex. The fact is that the Bible says nowhere that males should only love females and females should only love males.

It may even be that the young boy whom Jesus cured in Luke 7 was actually the lover (eromenos) of the centurion who begged Him to perform a miracle. And Jesus said that the Sodomites, contrary to the Chorazimites and the Capernaumites and all the Jews who turned their backs on Him, would have repented if the Gospel had been preached to them.

And the Bible gives numerous examples of polygamy. And God didn't rebuke the patriarchs and the kings who had harems. Even Luther allowed a German aristocrat to practice bigamy.

So pay attention to what is really written in the Bible. The Bible is not a Puritan manifest. Remember that a text taken out of its context is but a pretext. And if you really have too much aggressivity and violence within, turn it against your own sins. Get angry at yourself, despise yourself. Leave your neighbor alone. Or rather if you meddle with his life, do it from the position of the broken-hearted. From the position of one who is also hanging from the tree, cursed and transpierced.

And if in a final illumination you finally decide to abandon the Reformation Cadillac to recover the use of your legs, run, run to go into the kingdom of God with the homos and the tax-collectors!

Clete
June 9th, 2004, 05:47 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

Go and learn what that meaneth:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, sexual perverts who lie in bed with males, or even as this publican.

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And I am heterosexual.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I agree, repentant homos go to heaven! :thumb:
Are you repentant?
If so, then my labeling you a pervert was incorrect. If not then you have a problem. For not only do unrepentant homos go to hell but so do hypocrites.
It was you who pompously volunteered that there was a lot I needed to learn. Then when I simply pointed out that not only where you wrong in at least one basic Christian doctrine and that you therefore need not be telling me about how much I don't know, you then compare me to the publicans (which is laughable in light of my Tree of Life post) because I have pointed out your error. That makes you a hypocrite. If you're going to tell people they don't know much then don't get upset when they prove that it is you who doesn't know what they’re talking about.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 9th, 2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by Crow

I'd say 100%. It was very basic.

I'd say about 2% or less understand that the Law was not salvation but damnation.

I agree completely. Pretty tragic.

Clete
June 9th, 2004, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by titan

Clete:

I am a Christian and I have been for 21 years. I am unsure whether or not I get your point.

I certainly get ...

Christ paid the price for our failure to meet the law.

And

Now we no longer need to satisfy the law to have eternal life.

However it seems as if you were making some other point which went over my head. Please clarify.

Titan

The basic point is that the Law is a continuation of the ministry of The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Indeed, the Law gives us just that, knowledge of good and evil. Thus, with what Christ has accomplished at the cross we are no longer to partake of the Law. Or put another way, we are not to partake of The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That is our only prohibition, the very same prohibition that Adam and Eve were under. Christ has truly made all things new and undid the offense at the Tree for those that believe.
Get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Crow
June 9th, 2004, 06:56 AM
Christians tend to be ignorant of their faith because they are taught by other Christians who are ignorant of their faith.

6 and 7 year olds are capable of operating complex gaming equipment and computers, and they can understand current events. Why is it that most Christian kids get told broken-up stories plucked individually from the Bible that are portrayed as cute little fables instead of teaching them the very basics first, which aren't that hard to grasp if they're presented correctly?

It's no wonder so many kids grow up and turn from Christianity and think the Bible is just a collection of fairy tales--the well-intentioned people who instructed them don't know the basics.

Sozo
June 9th, 2004, 07:06 AM
Clete... I must clarify something you said...


Adam and Eve partook from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and where condemned because of it. We (the rest of mankind) are condemned by the Law.

It is not the Law that condemns us, but rather reveals the fact that we are already condemned.

"So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."



God (Jesus) removed the burden of the Law from us by nailing it to the Cross. True! However, He also took away the sin that condemns us, there for giving us the opportunity to partake from the Tree of Life!

This is an important distinction, and needed to be addressed.

Poly
June 9th, 2004, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

I'm just doing the same as Jesus, my dear Jezebel:

Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. Jhn 8:15-16


I a Calvinist? Your reading comprehension must be pretty low, Delilah. I reject everything that even remotely smacks of the foul, demonic Reformation.

If I'm mistaken about you being a Calvinist then I apologize. I was going by what I read here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14405&perpage=15&pagenumber=1).

So you're ok with judging and you're not ok with Calvinism.

Too bad that somebody so smart in these areas isn't smart enough to see that being a homo is wrong.

By the way, I wanted to tell you that unless you reject everything that is related to the Reformation (of which Calvinism is but one offshoot), you will end up driving a car with oars on it. You cannot simply ditch one doctrine and keep the rest. Each system is an organic whole.
:confused: Are you suggesting that one can't agree with what is scriptural about a doctrine and disagree with what is not? There are lots of doctrines out there. Some are based on scripture. Some only partly based on scripture. The Reformation speaks loudly of works not being a part of salvation. This is scriptural so I have no problem with this. Yes, the Reformation has been linked to Calvinism which I do reject because it is not scriptural.

Am I despicable?
Yes, that's what I said.

Then let God despise me! You have no right to despise, for it is written in your holy book:

He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
Exactly! In light of Romans 12:9,
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
I would be a hypocrite if I held people's hand on their way to hell, preaching only "God is love and He loves you just the way you are." It's pretty hateful to not warn those who are about to be destroyed.

Who are you to pick and choose only the verses that are pleasing to you? You can't choose to overlook:

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

1Timothy 5:20
Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.


Although you all have despised me and murdered me in your heart, let me give you a piece of advice in brotherly love:

Mat 7:1-2

[b]Judge not, that ye be not judged.

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

In other words, make sure that you become absolutely impeccable before you die because if you are not, if there is the slightest trace of sin in you, and remember that even the faintest lustful imagination is tantamount to outright adultery, God will judge with the same severity that you have judged me, me and all my brothers and sisters.
It's pretty clear that this is a false. You have simply given it the Jaguar Prince interpretation and we all know that your intepretations are based on what feels good to you. That doesn't cut it. Give God enough respect to search the meaning that He gives scripture.

If Jesus meant that nobody is to judge unless they are perfect, why would He say "then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye"? (Matthew 7:5) It's obvious that we will never be perfect so why would he tell us the particular point and time when this would be ok for us do so? Christ says don't judge hypocritically. I cannot judge you for being a homo if I myself am one as well. I cannot judge you for not accepting Christ if I have not accepted Him. But if those things do not apply to me then it is my responsibility to carry out Ephesians 5:11 and 1Timothy which cannot be done unless one makes a judgment as to who God says should be exposed.

[/QUOTE]


And don't dredge up some quote that says that we should denounce evil. One quote by Paul doesn't cancel out a whole string of quotes by Jesus and John.

What makes you think that what Paul says about exposing evil cancels out what Jesus said? Since Jesus didn't have a problem with judging as long as it wasn't done hypocritically, I don't see the conflict with what Paul has to say about evil being exposed. They fit together rather nicely.

Sozo
June 9th, 2004, 04:53 PM
:sozo: Clete...are you there?

God_Is_Truth
June 9th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Sozo

:sozo: Clete...are you there?

try a PM

jaguar_prince
June 9th, 2004, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I agree, repentant homos go to heaven! :thumb:
Are you repentant?
Clete


And you? Are you repentant of your own sins?

Or do you tell God every evening before going to bed:

God my beloved daddy
I deeply regret having offended you because
I got angry at my secretary and called her an idiot,
I drank too much Cognac at my son's birthday party
Etc., etc.

(Think of at least seven sins since your Bible says that even the just man sins seven times a day. )

And then you go on to say:

Shower me with the precious blood of your son
-hot or cold doesn't matter-
so that I may be pure in your eyes

Thereupon you conclude by saying:

Thank you God for your tender mercies!
You are my God!

And repeat the same little game the following day.

All the days of your life...

When will you repent, if at all ?

jaguar_prince
June 10th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Poly

If I'm mistaken about you being a Calvinist then I apologize. I was going by what I read

So you're ok with judging and you're not ok with Calvinism.

I am ok with a judging which is free of hate. A doctor (and we know that Jesus portrayed himself as a doctor) does not yell at his patients when they do something wrong. A doctor tells patiently the fat man or woman that he or she shouldn't eat so much ice-cream and apple pie, otherwise he or she will have a heart attack sooner or later. Does a doctor hate the patient who relapses? Does the doctor hate gluttony ? Does the doctor get all worked up when he sees his patient eating a gorgeous chocolate and vanilla ice-cream at the neighboorhood bakery?


Too bad that somebody so smart in these areas isn't smart enough to see that being a homo is wrong.

Too bad that you aren't smart enough to give me a credible reason for considering homosexuality an abominable sin other than appeal to the authority of two verses in a Jewish legal code written in the fifth century BC and two or three verses in Paul, a man who is not free from error and prejudice.

Homosexuality is widespread in the animal kingdom. So the Paulinian argument that homosexuality is para phusin (against nature) is simply false.

Apparently God loves diversity.


:confused: Are you suggesting that one can't agree with what is scriptural about a doctrine and disagree with what is not? There are lots of doctrines out there. Some are based on scripture. Some only partly based on scripture. The Reformation speaks loudly of works not being a part of salvation. This is scriptural so I have no problem with this. Yes, the Reformation has been linked to Calvinism which I do reject because it is not scriptural.

My dear Virginia, if you ditch predestination, you have to ditch lots of other things too: total depravity, divine omnipotence, sola fide and sola gratia, etc., etc. All these things go together.




Exactly! In light of Romans 12:9,
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.

In light of Romans 1, 18-20

Do you recognize that God revealed himself to all the pagan nations outside the special revelation to Isreal through Moses and Jesus?

This is what the three verses that precede Paul's condemnation of homosexual orgies clearly teach. Do you admit that there is such a thing as a cosmic revelation available to all wise men of all times ? In other words, are you willing because of what Paul says in Romans 1 to cast overboard the old wretched sola scriptura spinster and have her devoured by the Red Sea sharks?


I would be a hypocrite if I held people's hand on their way to hell, preaching only "God is love and He loves you just the way you are." It's pretty hateful to not warn those who are about to be destroyed.

You are absolutely right when you tell people: "Look, don't do that. It's wrong." You have a perfect right to say so. You have a perfect right to tell your own little son not to drink vitriol. But you are wrong when you do it with hate and contempt for the people who sin. A doctor who scolds his patients is using a strategy that is not only counterproductive, but also harmful. By your strident denunciations of homosexuality you are hardening homos in their sins while instilling in them a deep hate for religion in general.

So in your search for goodness you are right to be pure like a dove but you err fatally when, instead of being cunning like a snake, you act like an elephant in a China shop.

By the way why don't doctors get very emotional when they find that their patients sin against the rules of healthy living?


Who are you to pick and choose only the verses that are pleasing to you? You can't choose to overlook:

Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

1Timothy 5:20
Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

And what about you dear? Aren't you picking and choosing?

In fact, to pick and choose is sometimes a sign of intelligence and discernment, for in the Bible not everything applies to everybody. Otherwise why are you not a wandering Fransciscan monk without any property? Isn't it because you decided to discard what Jesus said to the rich man about selling everything to the poor and following him?

And how can you refrain from picking and choosing when you discover that Jesus ascended to heaven in the Galilee according to Matthew and Mark and from Bethany near Jerusalem in "John" and Luke ? Did Jesus bilocate?

I know the verses you have quoted, but first of all you need to prove that Paul intended his hearers to rebuke people who were outside the communities that he had founded. Did Paul want his disciples to go around blaming the pagans for their homosexual and other deviant practices?

Obviously not, that would have landed the fledgling Christian communities into a lot of trouble.

Second, I could show you several verses in Paul which state exactly the contrary of what he says in the two quotes above, namely that Christians should refrain from all judgment.

So instead of playing a kind of Biblical ping-pong game and hurling quotes indiscriminately at my head, please show me how the quotes you have cited harmonize with the numerous passages in the Bible which say unambiguously that we should refrain from judgment under pain of being severely judged ourselves.



It's pretty clear that this is a false. You have simply given it the Jaguar Prince interpretation and we all know that your intepretations are based on what feels good to you. That doesn't cut it. Give God enough respect to search the meaning that He gives scripture.

So are you assuming that you can read God's mind? Prove that your interpretation is the only plausible one.


If Jesus meant that nobody is to judge unless they are perfect, why would He say "then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye"? (Matthew 7:5) It's obvious that we will never be perfect so why would he tell us the particular point and time when this would be ok for us do so? Christ says don't judge hypocritically.

How do you know that it is impossible to be perfect? Is that not a doctrinal remnant of your Calvinistic upbringing? Jesus told us to be perfect like the Father. Would Jesus have commanded us to be perfect if it were impossible?

It is possible to be perfect but you are never going to be perfect unless you stop judging people here and now.

Note that the tendency to judge is considered by Jesus to be a major sin, perhap even the sin par excellence since all other sins in comparison are just "specks". Have you refllected seriously on this little scriptural detail?


I cannot judge you for being a homo if I myself am one as well. I cannot judge you for not accepting Christ if I have not accepted Him. But if those things do not apply to me then it is my responsibility to carry out Ephesians 5:11 and 1Timothy which cannot be done unless one makes a judgment as to who God says should be exposed.

Don't waste your time judging someone who is not your neighbor. Take care of yourself first. Use all your energy trying to apply in your life Jesus' commandment to be perfect and not to judge. If you sincerely try to understand what it means to refrain from all judgment instead of inventing pretexts for not listening to Jesus (for that is what you are doing in the name of common sense), God will enlighten you.

Once you are free from all judgment, God will give you a new wisdom which will enable you to heal people by your judgments instead of murdering them. Maybe you will be telling people the same things that you are telling them now but it will be fundamentally different because you will not be the same person anymore.

You will be another Christ. That is the meaning of the word "Christian".



What makes you think that what Paul says about exposing evil cancels out what Jesus said? Since Jesus didn't have a problem with judging as long as it wasn't done hypocritically, I don't see the conflict with what Paul has to say about evil being exposed. They fit together rather nicely.

What does it mean to judge hypocritically?

It means to judge when one is living in sin. A guilty person cannot judge another guilty person. Only God or a sinless person can be a judge (and the good news is that the father judges nobody. Yes, yes, Jesus said it !)

Now let me ask you:

Are you totally, irrevocably sinless?

No you aren't. In fact, according to your warped theology, it is even impossible to be sinless.

Therefore please be consistent, refrain from judgment.

Let there be the sound of silence. Silence heals. Noise is detrimental to physical and mental health.

Your present ego-ridden judgments are noise.

Clete
June 10th, 2004, 06:54 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

And you? Are you repentant of your own sins?

Or do you tell God every evening before going to bed:

God my beloved daddy
I deeply regret having offended you because
I got angry at my secretary and called her an idiot,
I drank too much Cognac at my son's birthday party
Etc., etc.

(Think of at least seven sins since your Bible says that even the just man sins seven times a day. )

And then you go on to say:

Shower me with the precious blood of your son
-hot or cold doesn't matter-
so that I may be pure in your eyes

Thereupon you conclude by saying:

Thank you God for your tender mercies!
You are my God!

And repeat the same little game the following day.

All the days of your life...

When will you repent, if at all ?

The typical Chrsitian might spew out this sort of nonsense (except for the blasphemous parts) but I do not.
It's not that I WILL BE forgiven if..., it's I HAVE BEEN forgiven because...
Further, you seem to equate all sins as being the same. They are not. Being a homo is not only a sin, it is a crime, a capital one at that!

Resting in Him,
Clete

jaguar_prince
June 10th, 2004, 11:39 PM
All sins are the same.

What is the essence of sin ?

Pleasure-seeking outside of God.

In other words, if you listen to some beautiful music and enjoy it without perceiving God in it, you are sinning.

If you make love to your legitimate wife and enjoy her without finding God in her, you are sinning just as the three homos nextdoor who are having an orgy are sinning.

Until you cannot find God in everything you do and perceive, you are living a life of sin.

Your whole life from morning till evening is sin.

Sin originally meant to miss the mark. The mark is God.

Striving to know him (how preposterous to claim to be resting in God !),



Jp

God_Is_Truth
June 10th, 2004, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The typical Chrsitian might spew out this sort of nonsense (except for the blasphemous parts) but I do not.
It's not that I WILL BE forgiven if..., it's I HAVE BEEN forgiven because...
Further, you seem to equate all sins as being the same. They are not. Being a homo is not only a sin, it is a crime, a capital one at that!

Resting in Him,
Clete

exactly! it's not that you will be found innocent before God, it's that you already have! and NOTHING can change that.

God_Is_Truth
June 10th, 2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

All sins are the same.



scripture please.

Delmar
June 11th, 2004, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

All sins are the same. No


What is the essence of sin ? Behaviour that leads to distruction.


Pleasure-seeking outside of God.

In other words, if you listen to some beautiful music and enjoy it without perceiving God in it, you are sinning. Perceiving God when you listen to music is good but not doing so is not the same as killing six million Jews.


If you make love to your legitimate wife and enjoy her without finding God in her, you are sinning just as the three homos nextdoor who are having an orgy are sinning. You are so nasty!


Until you cannot find God in everything you do and perceive, you are living a life of sin.
Your whole life from morning till evening is sin. Just the part that is not focused on God.


Sin originally meant to miss the mark. The mark is God. Yes the mark is God


Striving to know him (how preposterous to claim to be resting in God !),


Jp Unless you are resting in him!

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.


Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

Clete
June 11th, 2004, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince
Striving to know him (how preposterous to claim to be resting in God !)

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."*

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Turbo
June 11th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

...you are sinning just as the three homos nextdoor who are having an orgy are sinning. So you admit that three homos having an orgy are sinning?

bigfoot
June 11th, 2004, 06:20 AM
Hi Poly.

“Was God capable of giving man a complete and totally free will without any involvement of Himself in that will?" Of course this was an incredibly hard question for me to have to deal with so I avoided it for a long time.””
Well, here’s the answer: NO!

“I mean totally FREE will!”
While I’m sure you do mean ‘totally FREE will’, I think you’re confusing it with severely ‘limited free will’.
God gives us a ‘choice’, such as it is: love me, or burn forever.
What’s so ‘free’ about that?
It’s like a bully saying ‘give me that candy bar or I’ll punch your face’.
When love is attained through threat, of what value is it?
What about a ‘cease to exist’ option for the non-believers?
Much less threatening.
The threat more than constitutes “involvement of Himself in that will”.
So, why the threat?
God could play it any way He likes.


Some claim we damn ourselves as we are “without excuse”.
However, this ‘reasoning’ does not hold water.
If people actually KNOW that God exists and reject Him, surely they are INSANE!
This would mean that people KNOWINGLY lie to themselves.
And this lie will result in them ROASTING FOREVER.
And they KNOW this.
But they lie to themselves anyway, despite the ETERNAL TORMENT they KNOW awaits.
Are not these people INSANE and should be SAVED FROM THEMSELVES?

And here’s another thing… surely this punishment becomes invalid if the would-be punishees really do not believe a divine being exists as they have seen no evidence?
Atheists reject the IDEA that God exists, not God Himself, as they don’t believe He exists.
If they knew for a FACT God existed, I can’t imagine why they’d reject Him.
If God PROVED His existence then He might have a case, but as He doesn’t, isn’t He being a bit harsh?
And why not just make people CEASE TO EXIST, rather than SUSTAIN them in eternal torment?

Some say that if God revealed Himself, then there’d be no need for faith.
However, this kinda contradicts the ‘no excuse’ answer.
Also, some say that God revealing Himself would force our hand.
Hmmmm….. you mean like threatening eternal torment if we don’t love Him?
Once again, so much for ‘free will’.

the Sibbie
June 11th, 2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by jaguar_prince

All sins are the same. Woah! That is the biggest lie ever! When will some of you learn that is not true?


Pleasure-seeking outside of God.Is that not what you are doing when you choose to go against what God made to be natural?


If you make love to your legitimate wife and enjoy her without finding God in her, you are sinning just as the three homos nextdoor who are having an orgy are sinning.Just the action of a man marrying a woman, is honoring God, since God made Eve for Adam as the perfect companion. It is honoring and respecting God's perfect design.

Homosexuality, is a perversion and mockery of that perfect design. If someone gives you a gift of handmade furniture and you use it as firewood, you are perverting and mocking that the designer's intentions of that gift for you. (Maybe not the best analogy, but it's the best I could think of right now.)

No, God didn't make Adam and Steve, or even Adam, Eve and Steve. God made Adam and Eve and called it good.