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bigfoot
May 28th, 2004, 04:25 AM
Considering that they have not chosen Him through their own free wills, how do those who die before the Age Of Accountability avoid becoming merely robots programmed to love God if they make it to Heaven (if you believe they make it to Heaven, that is)?
Would their love have any value?
And if so, why does not God just save everyone?

Crow
May 28th, 2004, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot

Considering that they have not chosen Him through their own free wills, how do those who die before the Age Of Accountability avoid becoming merely robots programmed to love God if they make it to Heaven (if you believe they make it to Heaven, that is)?
Would their love have any value?
And if so, why does not God just save everyone?

I don't see much if anything that addresses those who die before the age of accountability. Since purely spiritual beings (angels) were capable of exercising free will, as evidenced by 1/3 rebelling and getting the boot from lofty realms, I would guess that not spending a long time in a human body does not make one a robot. Their love would have as much value as anyone elses.

God provides that all may be saved. Some choose not to be saved. I believe that forced relationship is repugnant to God. If you force someone to have a relationship with you, can they really love you?

bigfoot
May 28th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Good point. Some of the angels did go their own way.
So then, if beings can be created in the presence of God, why not do it with us?
I’d hazard a guess to say that had this happened, many more would get/be saved.
According to one source (http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm), Christians in 2000 numbered about 2015 million, or 33% of the world’s population.
That’s quite a lot.
However, it also means 4030 million are set to burn forever.
Now that IS a lot.
See what I mean about soul wastage?

You wrote: “I believe that forced relationship is repugnant to God. If you force someone to have a relationship with you, can they really love you?”
I could not agree more.
What value has love if it is coerced or gained through threat?
However, isn’t this EXACTLY how God attempts to gain our love?
What God says is, “Love me, or burn forever”.
Here God gives us a ‘choice’, such as it is.
This is hardly the much-vaunted ‘free will’.
Our hand is clearly being forced.

bigfoot
May 29th, 2004, 04:39 PM
Crow:

'Some choose not to be saved'.
Why?

Knight
May 29th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by bigfoot

Considering that they have not chosen Him through their own free wills, how do those who die before the Age Of Accountability avoid becoming merely robots programmed to love God if they make it to Heaven (if you believe they make it to Heaven, that is)?
Would their love have any value?
And if so, why does not God just save everyone? Have you considered that those who die before the age of accountability do not automatically go to heaven?

Isn't it possible that upon death the soul is matured and God allows this soul his or her eternal choice then?

God doesn't seem to be in the business of making our eternal choices for us, so I do not think there is any reason to believe He makes this choice for any of those that are incapable here on earth (i.e., those too young or those with mental disabilities).

Thoughts?

bigfoot
May 29th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Hi Knight.

“Have you considered that those who die before the age of accountability do not automatically go to heaven?”
Indeed I have: http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.html

“Isn't it possible that upon death the soul is matured”?
Is this in, or outwith, His presence?

Knight
May 29th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by bigfoot

Hi Knight.

“Have you considered that those who die before the age of accountability do not automatically go to heaven?”
Indeed I have: http://members.aol.com/twarren13/account.htmlI apologize... but I just don't have the time to read your link.

It does look interesting.


“Isn't it possible that upon death the soul is matured”?
Is this in, or outwith, His presence? Huh? :confused:

bigfoot
May 30th, 2004, 02:06 AM
“It does look interesting.”
It is indeed.
And I’d be interested to see if you can counter that author’s conclusion that accountability begins at conception.

“Huh? ”
Where might this ‘soul maturation’ take place, exactly?
In some Matrix-style tank, in another dimension and by itself, right in front of God and benefiting from his instruction and knowing He exists, isolated from spiritual things so it has to have faith etc…?
And where does this artificially matured soul get its ‘own’ ideas and opinions from?
It didn’t have any as a baby, so how does it acquire them if God does not download them into its soul brain?
And if that’s what God does, then the soul will hardly reject Him.
But that would make a robot.
Do you see what I’m asking now?
All more concisely summed up as, “Is this in, or outwith, His presence?”.

Crow
May 30th, 2004, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot

Crow:

'Some choose not to be saved'.
Why?

There are a variety of reasons people choose to reject God.

Some I've heard are "I could never believe in a God who allowed _______ (fill in atrocity or natural disaster of your choice.) Or a God who would send people to hell for _______ (fill in crime or perversion of your choice.)

I've known people who rejected God because they feel He promised them basically anything they prayed for, and became angry when He did not deliver as they expected.

I've known people who rejected God because of terrible things that happened in their lives that caused them to feel that God did not care about them.

I've known those who rejected God because they did not believe in His existance.

The reasons people reject God are too numerous to list fully. Each individual has his own reasons.

dotcom
May 30th, 2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by bigfoot


And I’d be interested to see if you can counter that author’s conclusion that accountability begins at conception.

Jesus said it himself:

The Children of the Devil

Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven't come of myself, but he sent me. Why don't you understand my speech? Because you can't hear my word. You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn't stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you don't believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don't hear, because you are not of God."

John 8:42-47

Bigfoot,

Jesus came to save mankind. Here Jesus war referring to mankind - from conception to death. And the controversial "age of accountability" falls in between.
Maybe someone can elaborate what it means " you are of your father the devil..."but I think it means fall of man via the devil.

Knight
May 30th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by bigfoot
Where might this ‘soul maturation’ take place, exactly?K Mart? :D

Just kiddin'

Actually I don't know. My guess is it would be some sort of instantaneous event upon death.


And where does this artificially matured soul get its ‘own’ ideas and opinions from?
It didn’t have any as a baby, so how does it acquire them if God does not download them into its soul brain?Every soul is an individual with its own personality and such.


And if that’s what God does, then the soul will hardly reject Him.Maybe, maybe not. keep in mind free-will is a powerful thing. Who would have thought that angels would fall? After all..... angels knew who God was and many still rejected Him.


But that would make a robot.I see no logical reason to make that conclusion.

Duder
June 1st, 2004, 10:56 AM
Knight said:

Have you considered that those who die before the age of accountability do not automatically go to heaven?

Isn't it possible that upon death the soul is matured and God allows this soul his or her eternal choice then?

That would give a great advantage to those who are matured post-mortem! They get to choose God when they have clear evidence of the existence of God and the afterlife. It hardly seems fair to the rest of us who have to place our bets before we "know".

In the interests of fairness, maybe God gives those who die before the age of accountability a "do-over".

Knight
June 1st, 2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Duder

That would give a great advantage to those who are matured post-mortem! They get to choose God when they have clear evidence of the existence of God and the afterlife. You would think so eh?

But remember.... a good portion of the angels fell.

And think of all the times men turned against God even after He had done something miraculous!

Free-will seems to be a very powerful force and men seem to reject what they know to be true in favor of not submitting themselves to that truth.

philosophizer
June 1st, 2004, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot
What value has love if it is coerced or gained through threat?
However, isn’t this EXACTLY how God attempts to gain our love?
What God says is, “Love me, or burn forever”.

Well, I think there's more to it than that. Let's think down the line here:

God, in allowing us a choice, says, "Love Me, or don't."

If we love Him, we'll be with Him forever.

If we don't, we certainly would not want to be with Him.

If we're not with Him, we're somewhere where He isn't.

Where is that?

Balder
June 1st, 2004, 01:22 PM
If God is the source of existence and of life, then why do those who end up "apart from Him" continue to exist and to consciously suffer? Some Evangelical preachers, such as Hank Hanegraaff, make a point of emphasizing that the torment in Hell is beyond anything we can imagine or experience on Earth, and that it is rightfully considered punishment even if it is also a choice. Some Christians I know who believe in an eternal Hell downplay the "punishment" part, but if people continue to exist and have (painful) experiences apart from God, then it must be because God sustains them in their torment. And this indeed is punishment, isn't it?

If God doesn't sustain them, then you have a universe populated by many "gods" -- immortal beings who exist forever without depending for their existence upon an external agent.

philosophizer
June 1st, 2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Balder

If God is the source of existence and of life, then why do those who end up "apart from Him" continue to exist and to consciously suffer? Some Evangelical preachers, such as Hank Hanegraaff, make a point of emphasizing that the torment in Hell is beyond anything we can imagine or experience on Earth, and that it is rightfully considered punishment even if it is also a choice. Some Christians I know who believe in an eternal Hell downplay the "punishment" part, but if people continue to exist and have (painful) experiences apart from God, then it must be because God sustains them in their torment. And this indeed is punishment, isn't it?

If God doesn't sustain them, then you have a universe populated by many "gods" -- immortal beings who exist forever without depending for their existence upon an external agent.


Yes, but that way of thinking leans upon the definition of the word "existence" which is also quite unfathomable.

Balder
June 1st, 2004, 02:17 PM
Yes, but that way of thinking leans upon the definition of the word "existence" which is also quite unfathomable.

:think:

Aussie Thinker
June 3rd, 2004, 06:15 PM
Bigfoot,

Now.. cmon.. stop ruining the fairy tale by pointing out the contradictions and the ridiculous notions their religion thrives on !

Knight,

You keep talking about angels and their “free will”….

Ever wonder WHY 33 % of them “revolted”.. God must be one hell of a tyrant if 33 % revolted.. KNOWING they would be defeated and banished to hell ???

How BAD must he be ?

Do you see the ridiculousness of this logic..

NO HUMAN would NOT choose God if they knew he existed and was the loving caring deity you think him to be.

You logic is just sooo screwed up I can hardly believe it.

Knight
June 3rd, 2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Bigfoot,

Now.. cmon.. stop ruining the fairy tale by pointing out the contradictions and the ridiculous notions their religion thrives on !

Knight,

You keep talking about angels and their “free will”….

Ever wonder WHY 33 % of them “revolted”.. God must be one hell of a tyrant if 33 % revolted.. KNOWING they would be defeated and banished to hell ???

How BAD must he be ?

Do you see the ridiculousness of this logic..

NO HUMAN would NOT choose God if they knew he existed and was the loving caring deity you think him to be.

You logic is just sooo screwed up I can hardly believe it. You mean like...... someone being so rude and ignorant on an internet forum that he knew he was gonna get banned but he acted like a jerk any way?

:wave2:

One Eyed Jack
June 3rd, 2004, 09:22 PM
Alas, poor Aussie. I knew him well...

dotcom
June 4th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Bigfoot,

Now.. cmon.. stop ruining the fairy tale by pointing out the contradictions and the ridiculous notions their religion thrives on !

Knight,

You keep talking about angels and their “free will”….

Ever wonder WHY 33 % of them “revolted”.. God must be one hell of a tyrant if 33 % revolted.. KNOWING they would be defeated and banished to hell ???

How BAD must he be ?

Do you see the ridiculousness of this logic..

NO HUMAN would NOT choose God if they knew he existed and was the loving caring deity you think him to be.

You logic is just sooo screwed up I can hardly believe it.

Sunds like an excellent reasoning from an autochthonal confused atheist!

bigfoot
June 4th, 2004, 02:22 AM
Crow:

“There are a variety of reasons people choose to reject God.
Some I've heard are "I could never believe in a God who allowed _______ (fill in atrocity or natural disaster of your choice.) Or a God who would send people to hell for _______ (fill in crime or perversion of your choice.)
I've known people who rejected God because they feel He promised them basically anything they prayed for, and became angry when He did not deliver as they expected.
I've known people who rejected God because of terrible things that happened in their lives that caused them to feel that God did not care about them.”

All the above examples began with a belief in the existence of God.
However, they all ended when God failed to show any evidence of actually existing/seemingly deserted them.
Hardly surprising, then, that people should change their minds about whether he exists or not.

“I've known those who rejected God because they did not believe in His existance.”
Does not compute!
You have to KNOW something EXISTS in order to REJECT it.
And eternal torment is hardly fitting for those that really do not believe a divine being exists as they have seen no evidence?
Atheists reject the IDEA that God exists, not God himself, as they don’t believe He exists.
If they knew for a FACT God existed, why would most actually deny Him and opt for eternal damnation?
And if they were actually insane enough to do this, shouldn’t God protect these primitive, deluded, finite beings from themselves?



Knight:

“Every soul is an individual with its own personality and such.”
So, why then have any corporeal form at all?
Why not keep everything spiritual?
If every soul already has “its own personality and such”, despite not having had any life experience, why is the life experience necessary?
It does not seem to make a difference.
Indeed, God already knows what ‘choice’ a soul will make before He creates it, so why create the souls that would not choose Him?
That’s unless He actually wants billions to suffer eternally for their insane mistake?

“Maybe, maybe not. keep in mind free-will is a powerful thing. Who would have thought that angels would fall? After all..... angels knew who God was and many still rejected Him.”
OK then, so what’s going to stop a third of Heaven rebelling against God?
If we still have free will in Heaven, this then remains a possibility.
It’s happened before, so why not again?
God seems to have shot himself in the foot.



Duder:

“That would give a great advantage to those who are matured post-mortem! They get to choose God when they have clear evidence of the existence of God and the afterlife. It hardly seems fair to the rest of us who have to place our bets before we "know".
On the nose, my man!



Philosophizer:

“If we're not with Him, we're somewhere where He isn't. Where is that?”
Well, I need not be Hell.
There’s no torment if we do not exist.
But non-existence is not an option, apparently.
Why not?
It would certainly be more ‘loving’ than eternal torment.



Balder:

“… but if people continue to exist and have (painful) experiences apart from God, then it must be because God sustains them in their torment. And this indeed is punishment, isn't it?”

Wise words, sir!




Dotcom:

“Sunds like an excellent reasoning from an autochthonal confused atheist!”
Where does Aussie seem to be confused?

“NO HUMAN would NOT choose God if they knew he existed and was the loving caring deity you think him to be.”
Sounds fair enough to me.




Aussie:

I didn’t think you were being particularly rude or ignorant.
I’ve seen far worse on these boards and these posters are still posting.

Knight
June 4th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot
Aussie:

I didn’t think you were being particularly rude or ignorant.
I’ve seen far worse on these boards and these posters are still posting. TOL is cleaning house.

If you have nothing to add to the debate and your simply popping into threads just to make snide comments then please find another forum to pester.

bigfoot
June 5th, 2004, 02:15 AM
Knight:

Nothing to add...?

“Every soul is an individual with its own personality and such.”
So, why then have any corporeal form at all?
Why not keep everything spiritual?
If every soul already has “its own personality and such”, despite not having had any life experience, why is the life experience necessary?
It does not seem to make a difference.
Indeed, God already knows what ‘choice’ a soul will make before He creates it, so why create the souls that would not choose Him?
That’s unless He actually wants billions to suffer eternally for their insane mistake?

“Maybe, maybe not. keep in mind free-will is a powerful thing. Who would have thought that angels would fall? After all..... angels knew who God was and many still rejected Him.”
OK then, so what’s going to stop a third of Heaven rebelling against God?
If we still have free will in Heaven, this then remains a possibility.
It’s happened before, so why not again?
God seems to have shot himself in the foot.

Delmar
June 5th, 2004, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot



“I've known those who rejected God because they did not believe in His existance.”
Does not compute!
You have to KNOW something EXISTS in order to REJECT it.
And eternal torment is hardly fitting for those that really do not believe a divine being exists as they have seen no evidence?
Atheists reject the IDEA that God exists, not God himself, as they don’t believe He exists.
If they knew for a FACT God existed, why would most actually deny Him and opt for eternal damnation?
And if they were actually insane enough to do this, shouldn’t God protect these primitive, deluded, finite beings from themselves?



When my kid gets caught doing somthing wrong he tries to claim he doesn't know.

Fluke Artist
June 5th, 2004, 07:25 AM
Knight Posted


TOL is cleaning house.

So no views that disagree with the administrator will be allowed anymore ?


If you have nothing to add to the debate and your simply popping into threads just to make snide comments then please find another forum to pester.

Didn't bigfoot actually start the thread ?

Delmar
June 5th, 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Fluke Artist

Knight Posted



So no views that disagree with the administrator will be allowed anymore ?



Didn't bigfoot actually start the thread ?

I thought Knight was speeking to bigfoot about Aussie Thinker .

BillyBob
June 5th, 2004, 08:02 AM
I think Fluke Artist is Aussie Thinker. :think:

Turbo
June 5th, 2004, 09:22 AM
That's right, BB.


What a goof. He acts like he was the only atheist at TOL.

One Eyed Jack
June 5th, 2004, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I think Fluke Artist is Aussie Thinker. :think:

He is. Or rather, he was. He's just a memory now.

Knight
June 5th, 2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by deardelmar

I thought Knight was speeking to bigfoot about Aussie Thinker . :thumb:

dotcom
June 6th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by bigfoot


Dotcom:

“Sunds like an excellent reasoning from an autochthonal confused atheist!”
Where does Aussie seem to be confused?

It is biblically inaccurate to conclude the revolt of 33% of the angels was a result of G-d's tyranny. Aussie is confusing G-d with a tyrant, isn't he?

bigfoot
June 6th, 2004, 04:54 AM
deardelmar :


'When my kid gets caught doing somthing wrong he tries to claim he doesn't know.'

Bad analogy. Your kid KNOWS you exist.