PDA

View Full Version : Forgiving Others



Pages : [1] 2

Lucky
May 13th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Should we forgive only those who ask for forgiveness? Tell me why you think we should or should not.

ebenz47037
May 13th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Normally, I would agree with Knight and Poly on their position. "No. You should only forgive the repentent."

But, in a case, where you're anger is affecting your life, you need to forgive the person for your own sanity.

Melody
May 13th, 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Lucky

Should we forgive only those who ask for forgiveness? Tell me why you think we should or should not.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

This does not say that one waits for a request for forgiveness before forgiveness is granted.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Jam 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
Jam 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Unforgiveness does not harm the one that commited the offense, it harms the one that carries it. Forgiveness releases the victim not the offender.

That offense still stands between God and the offender, but we are not responsible for other people's sins in the eyes of God, only our own.

As David said, Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Lucky:

Forgive in what sense? Dictionary.com


for·give ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fr-gv, fôr-)
v. for·gave, (-gv) for·giv·en, (-gvn) for·giv·ing, for·gives
v. tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.

Do you mean forgive as in definition 1 or 2 or both? I think it's possible to cease being angry or holding a grudge while still not excusing them for their offense.

An example of that would be a woman whose husband cheats on her. She can renounce her anger towards him, but not excuse him from the penalty of committing the wrong. The penalty might be that she doesn't trust him, or that she will divorce him for example. Thus she hasn't excused him for his actions, but she has forgiven him in another sense.

the Sibbie
May 13th, 2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Forgive, but don't forget. But how is this true forgiveness?

cattyfan
May 13th, 2004, 12:02 PM
A woman may forgive a man for his infidelity, but if he is not sorry or repentant for his trespass, is that sin forgiven?

Poly
May 13th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Normally, I would agree with Knight and Poly on their position. "No. You should only forgive the repentent."

But, in a case, where you're anger is affecting your life, you need to forgive the person for your own sanity.
I can see where you are coming from. I've had similiar situations but if anger is affecting your life over something that somebody did to you, you can choose not to allow the memories of it to disable you in any way and instead choose to live a healthy life. This doesn't mean that you have to forgive them when they've never repented over it. It simply means you choose to rise above it not allowing what that person did to have any affect on your life.
When Christians relay a message that people can be forgiven for their actions, though they haven't asked for repentance, or realized the damage they've done, it gives them the idea that there is no consequences that will have to be paid if they do wrong. They expect that forgiveness will be given to them no matter what.

Melody
May 13th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by cattyfan

A woman may forgive a man for his infidelity, but if he is not sorry or repentant for his trespass, is that sin forgiven?

It is by her, He is still responsible for his own offense and must answer to God and his own conscience.

JoyfulRook
May 13th, 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Melody

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

This does not say that one waits for a request for forgiveness before forgiveness is granted.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
Jam 5:10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
Jam 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

As David said, Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest. Funny how every single verse you said was written by a kingdom believer. Try these verses:

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

So instead of it being WORKS, it is because God has forgiven you already.

If he repents then shall you forgive.

JoyfulRook
May 13th, 2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Poly

I can see where you are coming from. I've had similiar situations but if anger is affecting your life over something that somebody did to you, you can choose not to allow the memories of it to disable you in any way and instead choose to live a healthy life. This doesn't mean that you have to forgive them when they've never repented over it. It simply means you choose to rise above it not allowing what that person did to have any affect on your life.
When Christians relay a message that people can be forgiven for their actions, though they haven't asked for repentance, or realized the damage they've done, it gives them the idea that there is no consequences that will have to be paid if they do wrong. They expect that forgiveness will be given to them no matter what. So basically forget, not forgive. :thumb:

cattyfan
May 13th, 2004, 12:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cattyfan

A woman may forgive a man for his infidelity, but if he is not sorry or repentant for his trespass, is that sin forgiven?

quote
originally response by Melody:

It is by her, He is still responsible for his own offense and must answer to God and his own conscience.

good answer. that's what I was taught, as well.

beanieboy
May 13th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

So basically forget, not forgive. :thumb:

When did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them, when they repented for killing him on the cross, or beforehand, when they weren't aware of what they were doing?

Shouldn't one do the same?

Or was Jesus just a wuss?

Melody
May 13th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Funny how every single verse you said was written by a kingdom believer. Try these verses:

Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Ephesians 4:32
Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.

So instead of it being WORKS, it is because God has forgiven you already.

If he repents then shall you forgive.

I think that you are still missing the point. If I forgive someone that has injured me it is because Christ has already forgiven me and I want Christ to continue to forgive me.

If I forgive someone of an offence that offence is finished between them and me, that does not necessarily mean that the offense is finished between the offender and God. The offender is still answerable to God for the offense.

I think that there is a mistaken idea that if I forgive someone of an offense that God automatically forgives the offender also.

Aimiel
May 13th, 2004, 12:32 PM
I was taught that when someone cuts us off on the expressway, that's a tiny offense, which, if unforgiven, will clog the path a little bit. Someone cuts in front of us in the checkout line, that might be a little worse, depending on how busy your day is. We don't realize that is we don't forgive men these things, that our prayer, on its way to The Lord, goes up our 'chimney' and tries to reach The Lord, but can't get past all the petty little things which have now not only completely clogged up our chimney, but the smoke of our own sin has now clouded our heart, mind and lives with critical faultfinding. We've become stumblingblocks, instead of being the center of hospitality, hope, faith and forgiveness that The Lord is, and His People should represent. We need to ask The Great Chimneysweeper for some help with our lives.

Aimiel
May 13th, 2004, 12:36 PM
We can forgive, which is human. God being able to forget our sin, that's divine. When Christians forget one another's sin, and worship The Lord together, that is when He is pleased, to see Himself in us.

JoyfulRook
May 13th, 2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

When did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them, when they repented for killing him on the cross, or beforehand, when they weren't aware of what they were doing?

Shouldn't one do the same?

Or was Jesus just a wuss? He was saying they don't know that I'm God. And God has the Power to for give sins anyway:
John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 12:44 PM
Dread Helm:

Regarding Christ's "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing" comment:


He was saying they don't know that I'm God. And God has the Power to for give sins anyway:
John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Your point is irrelevant.

Answer me this (yes or no answers would be sufficient):

1. Were those who crucified Christ repentant of their sin of executing an innocent?
2. Did Christ forgive them?

the Sibbie
May 13th, 2004, 12:46 PM
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
Matthew 18:21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"
22 Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'
27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 "But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!'
29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet[4] and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.'[5]
30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?'
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 "So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."[6]

This situation demonstrates how God will forgive us. Notice that the first servant asked the master forgiveness (well in this case he actually asked for some extra time, notice he still held himself responsible for that debt.) Therefore the master forgave him beyond even what the servant asked. But before the servant asked for forgiveness the master held the man accountable for his debt.

Then in the second half of the parable, the first servant confronted (not in the best manner) his fellow servant about repayment of a debt. The fellow servant also asked for extra time, but the first proudly refused to forgive his fellow servant. Therefore when the master heard what happened, he revoked the forgiveness that he had given to the first servant and once again held that servant accountable for his debt.

This is the way the Father deals with our sin. He holds us accountable, but will forgive us if we ask. But if we refuse to forgive others if they ask, our Father will once again remember our sin.

This parable doesn't say forgive others even if they don't ask. It shows that the debtor should be held accountable. Even if the master didn't completely forgive the debt, I don't think that would be wrong. The master would have been wrong not to at least give the first servant more time. But the master out of the compasion of his heart, forgave the whole debt. (I just wanted to clarify because I don't want to send the message that we don't need to repay our debts if we ask forgiveness. Ha...that would be silly.)

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

When did Jesus ask the Father to forgive them, when they repented for killing him on the cross, or beforehand, when they weren't aware of what they were doing?

Shouldn't one do the same?

Or was Jesus just a wuss? Jesus asked the Father....

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they divided His garments and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

The Roman soldiers clearly knew they were crucifying an innocent man or at very least a man that their leader (Pilate) said had done no crime (Luke 23:4).

So Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them for what they were doing, yet for what they DIDN'T know they were doing.

Now..... what were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of???? :)

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

I was taught that when someone cuts us off on the expressway, that's a tiny offense, which, if unforgiven, will clog the path a little bit. Someone cuts in front of us in the checkout line, that might be a little worse, depending on how busy your day is. We don't realize that is we don't forgive men these things, that our prayer, on its way to The Lord, goes up our 'chimney' and tries to reach The Lord, but can't get past all the petty little things which have now not only completely clogged up our chimney, but the smoke of our own sin has now clouded our heart, mind and lives with critical faultfinding. We've become stumblingblocks, instead of being the center of hospitality, hope, faith and forgiveness that The Lord is, and His People should represent. We need to ask The Great Chimneysweeper for some help with our lives. These things are not sinful.

Therefore when a person cuts us off on the freeway or jumps in line at the grocery store we should look past the offense or we will become bitter people. But these things are not sinful therefore the question of forgiveness and repentance doesn't really apply.

the Sibbie
May 13th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Knight

...we should look past the offense or we will become bitter people. I think this is where longsuffering and self control come into play.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Knight:


Jesus asked the Father....

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they divided His garments and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

The Roman soldiers clearly knew they were crucifying an innocent man or at very least a man that their leader (Pilate) said had done no crime (Luke 23:4).

So Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them for what they were doing, yet for what they DIDN'T know they were doing.

Now..... what were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of.

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by the Sibbie

I think this is where longsuffering and self control come into play. :sibbie: The Sibbinator strikes again!!! :thumb:

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of. That isn't what the Bible says.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Knight:


That isn't what the Bible says.

What isn't what the Bible says?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



Ignorance and repentance are not the same thing. In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin. So any way you cut it, Christ forgave them for sins that they had not repented of. Oh and you forgot to answer my question.....

What were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:08 PM
What were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of????

Executing the Son of God. I don't see how that affects the case I'm making.

PureX
May 13th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

Should we forgive only those who ask for forgiveness? Tell me why you think we should or should not. Let's be honest. If we only forgave those who recognized their offensive behaviors and asked us for our forgiveness, we'd basically almost never forgive anyone. And who would want to carry around all that resentment? Not me.

I also think that it's part of the idea of forgiveness that the person being forgiven does not have to "repent". It would be wonderful if they did, of course, but it's not a criteria for their being forgiven. You can see this in the word, itself: for - given, given before, before what? It could mean before being asked, or it could mean even before causing offense. Either way, I don't see any inference that there must be some request prior to forgiveness.

Aimiel
May 13th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Knight

These things are not sinful.

Therefore when a person cuts us off on the freeway or jumps in line at the grocery store we should look past the offense or we will become bitter people.I don't know about you, but I used to 'take offense' when someone did these things to me. I took this sermon to heart.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
But these things are not sinful therefore the question of forgiveness and repentance doesn't really apply.Someone who cuts in line, whether he realizes it or not, is commiting a crime, and an offence. We are to obey the law, whether it is man's or God's law, it is to be obeyed. You don't consider criminals to be sinning, unless they violate one of the commandments? I do. They are in rebellion.

the Sibbie
May 13th, 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Jesus asked the Father....

Now..... what were the Roman Soldiers doing that they weren't aware of???? :)


Originally posted by adajos

Executing the Son of God. I don't see how that affects the case I'm making. I believe you already answered that one for yourself.


Originally posted by adajos

In fact, it's impossible to repent of a sin if one is ignorant of it being a sin.


Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.” And they divided His garments and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Sibbie:

I'm confused by your post.

Knight suggested that his interpretation of that was that Christ didn't forgive the solders for crucifying an innocent man, but rather forgave them for something they didn't know they did---executing the Son of God.

My point is, who cares? He still forgave them for a sin they didn't repent of, because they didn't know they were doing it.

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by PureX

Let's be honest. If we only forgave those who recognized their offensive behaviors and asked us for our forgiveness, we'd basically almost never forgive anyone. And who would want to carry around all that resentment? Not me.Forgiving someone who doesn't repent is wrong. It hurts them and it hurts you and God grieves when we do it.

If you personally feel less resentment for false forgiveness good for you! but others may have greater resentment when they are fooled into forgiving those who don't ask.



I also think that it's part of the idea of forgiveness that the person being forgiven does not have to "repent". It would be wonderful if they did, of course, but it's not a criteria for their being forgiven. When we forgive them without repentance we solidify their sin.

We hurt them because now they feel repentance is not neccesary.

Moreover...
If we are forgiving (even without repentance) because it makes us "feel better" isn't that a selfish way to live? I try to not be selfish and try to do God's will which is better for the sinner. Arn't we supposed to be helping those who are sinning????

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by adajos
My point is, who cares? He still forgave them for a sin they didn't repent of, because they didn't know they were doing it. Uh.... hello... is anyone in there?????:freak:

The point is..... (which you helped illustrate brilliantly) is that Jesus DIDN'T ask the Father to forgive them of the sin that they knew they were committing.

Get the point?

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Knight:


Uh.... hello... is anyone in there?????

The point is..... (which you helped illustrate brilliantly) is that Jesus DIDN'T ask the Father to forgive them of the sin that they knew they were committing.

Get the point?

I get your point. But you're missing my point. Maybe this will help.

What was Jesus forgiving them for and had they repented of what He forgave them for before he forgave them?

He must have been forgiving them of sin right, or why would He say "Father, forgive them"? So, did they repent of that sin prior to Christ asking for their forgiveness?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't know about you, but I used to 'take offense' when someone did these things to me. I took this sermon to heart.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!Someone who cuts in line, whether he realizes it or not, is commiting a crime, and an offence. We are to obey the law, whether it is man's or God's law, it is to be obeyed. You don't consider criminals to be sinning, unless they violate one of the commandments? I do. They are in rebellion. Aimiel.... dude... what are you talking about????

Are you seriously trying to make the point that offending someone is a sin?????

If so, Jesus was the biggest sinner of all time!!!

As it is written: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” - Romans 9:33

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



I get your point. But you're missing my point. Maybe this will help.

What was Jesus forgiving them of and had they repented of what He forgave them for before he forgave them? First off.... Jesus didn't forgive them of anything. Jesus did however ASK the Father to forgive them for doing what they were NOT aware of.

Secondly....There is no biblical evidence to suggest that Jesus wanted the Father to forgive them for the sin they WERE aware of.

Melody
May 13th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I tell you what, you keep claiming that it is ungodly to forgive those that have not asked for repentance. Show me the scripture that I cannot forgive.

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Melody

I tell you what, you keep claiming that it is ungodly to forgive those that have not asked for repentance. Show me the scripture that I cannot forgive. Luke 17:3 “Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 “And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Knight:


First off.... Jesus didn't forgive them of anything. Jesus did however ASK the Father to forgive them for doing what they were NOT aware of.

What's the point of making the distinction? I don't see that it's germane to the topic, unless you are suggesting that either Christ couldn't forgive sin Himself or that different parts of the Trinity could have different "statuses" of forgiveness towards a given sin.

Bottom line, the Roman soldiers weren't aware they were sinning by executing the Son of God yet Christ forgave them--unless He was asking the Father to do something that He was unwilling to do Himself.


Secondly....There is no biblical evidence to suggest that Jesus wanted the Father to forgive them for the sin they WERE aware of.

I never suggested that we ought to forgive people in all circumstances, nor that God would either. I suggested that sometimes forgiveness is appropriate even if we haven't been asked for forgiveness.

I believe Christ bears out that idea from the cross.

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by adajos
I don't see that it's germane to the topic, unless you are suggesting that either Christ couldn't I never suggested that we ought to forgive people in all circumstances, nor that God would either. I suggested that sometimes forgiveness is appropriate even if we haven't been asked for forgiveness.

I believe Christ bears out that idea from the cross. REALLY????? How so? Out of the two on the crosses with Jesus one was repentant and one wasn't. Which one did Jesus forgive? :think:

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 01:56 PM
Gotta go for now.....

I will try to visit this thread later tonight!

Thanks for the debate y'all! :up:

PureX
May 13th, 2004, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Forgiving someone who doesn't repent is wrong. It hurts them and it hurts you and God grieves when we do it.You may be misunderstanding forgiveness. Just because we forgive someone doesn't mean that they are not still accountable for their behavior. If someone steals my car, I can forgive them, but I still want my car back, and society will still want the theif to be punished for his crime, and rightly so.

Originally posted by Knight If you personally feel less resentment for false forgiveness good for you! but others may have greater resentment when they are fooled into forgiving those who don't ask.If you're going to hold resentments against everyone who doesn't behave as you think they should, you're going to be carrying around a whole lot of resentment! And to tell you the truth I think that most of it will then be your own fault.

Originally posted by Knight When we forgive them without repentance we solidify their sin. Another person's sins or repentance is between them and God. That's not our business. Our business is to deal with crime. Dealing with crime isn't about forgiveness, it's about establishing and maintaining peace and social order. We must do this whether we forgive people or not.

Originally posted by Knight We hurt them because now they feel repentance is not neccesary.We are not in charge of what other people think or feel. That is their own business.

Originally posted by Knight If we are forgiving (even without repentance) because it makes us "feel better" isn't that a selfish way to live? I try to not be selfish and try to do God's will which is better for the sinner. Arn't we supposed to be helping those who are sinning???? Jesus gave is one command, yet he very interestingly expressed this command three ways, he said: "Love God..., and love you brother as yourselves". Jesus also said that as we forgive others, so shall we in turn be forgiven. The interesting thing about love and forgiveness is that they are as good for the giver as they are for the receiver. You seem to be implying, here, that because love and forgiveness feel good to the giver, as well as the receiver, that they must be selfish. But Jesus commanded us to love our brothers as we love ourselves. He didn't say to love our brothers and deny loving ourselves. He meant that the goodness of love and forgiveness be felt by both the giver and the receiver. And it is in the nature of love and forgiveness that it is this way.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 02:08 PM
Knight:


REALLY????? How so? Out of the two on the crosses with Jesus one was repentant and one wasn't. Which one did Jesus forgive?

Did I or did I not just say that forgiveness of unrepentant sinners is not always appropriate? In that case it wasn't. Why would you bring this up other than to avoid the topic and muddy the waters?

Are you going to answer my questions? You seem to still be missing the point.

Were the Roman soldiers repentant of the sin of executing the Son of God prior to Christ asking the Father to forgive them?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by PureX
Jesus also said that as we forgive others, so shall we in turn be forgiven. And He also explained the proper way to forgive others. :D (Luke 17:3)

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by adajos
Were the Roman soldiers repentant of the sin of executing the Son of God prior to Christ asking the Father to forgive them? No. Of course not! As both you and I have already pointed out they were NOT aware they were executing the Son of God.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Knight:



Were the Roman soldiers repentant of the sin of executing the Son of God prior to Christ asking the Father to forgive them?

No. Of course not! As both you and I have already pointed out they were NOT aware they were executing the Son of God.

Ignorance of sin does not making something not sinful. If somebody not familiar with the Christian concept of lust as a sin, and they look at pornography, they are still sinning, even though they are ignorant of it.

In the same way, though the Roman soldiers were not aware they were executing the Son of God, yet they were still sinning by doing so. And as you said above, they were not repentant. Yet Christ makes that request for forgiveness of the Father.

So does your above statement mean that you admit there is Biblical precedent for forgiveness of sin without repentance in some circumstances?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by adajos

Ignorance of sin does not making something not sinful. If somebody not familiar with the Christian concept of lust as a sin, and they look at pornography, they are still sinning, even though they are ignorant of it. Not in this case because there was no way for the Roman Soliders to know the extent of what they were doing in regard to executing the Son of God.

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 03:03 PM
Knight:



Ignorance of sin does not making something not sinful. If somebody not familiar with the Christian concept of lust as a sin, and they look at pornography, they are still sinning, even though they are ignorant of it.

Not in this case because there was no way for the Roman Soliders to know the extent of what they were doing in regard to executing the Son of God.

Do you apply the same thinking to the sins of people in isolated, primitive cultures who've never heard the name of Christ or Biblical law? Their sins are not sins because there was no way for them to know of their sin?! If not, is this the only situation you can conceive of in which sin "doesn't count" because of human ignorance?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Originally posted by adajos
Do you apply the same thinking to the sins of people in isolated, primitive cultures who've never heard the name of Christ or Biblical law? Their sins are not sins because there was no way for them to know of their sin?! If not, is this the only situation you can conceive of in which sin "doesn't count" because of human ignorance? Obviously that would depend on the sin wouldn't it?

Knight
May 13th, 2004, 03:11 PM
The bottom line is the Roman Soldiers were not forgiven! At least not that we know of. Christ was simply asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they weren't aware of. You can imagine hell is an awful place. And you can imagine how awful it must be to spend eternity with the burden of your sin piled on your back. Now imagine finding out that you executed the Son of God!!! The Creator of all that exists!!!!! Ouch!

Even still we don't know if the Father forgave that aspect of the sin.

Freak
May 13th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Poly

They expect that forgiveness will be given to them no matter what. Your brand of Christianity is quite cultic, Poly. Allow me to share with you God's Word on this subject...

We forgive regardless....

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.

Aimiel
May 13th, 2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Knight

what are you talking about?Hopefully, the subject matter at hand; namely: Forgiving Others. Do you forgive someone that cuts you off, or say, "You jerk?"
Are you seriously trying to make the point that offending someone is a sin?No, but that committing a crime is, which it looked like you were trying to smooth over by dismissing.

The fact that we're offended neither always means that the 'offender' is guilty of anything, or that our perceived offense was merited. I've often had to apologize to people who mis-understood me, and hope they don't hold anything against me for it, and even more often, had to apologize for being 'offensive.'

I do agree that Jesus is The Rock of Offense, and that He knows how to get right to the heart of every matter.

As far as your 'bottom line' goes, about the Roman soldiers, I believe that if He hadn't said that, the earth might just have been destroyed, just a few seconds later.

Freak
May 13th, 2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Forgiving someone who doesn't repent is wrong. Clearly, this is in error.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Furthermore, forgiveness on a human level is necessary if we are to experience forgiveness from God (see Matthew 6:12-15). Forgiveness is also a crucial element in resolving anger and bitterness (see Ephesians 4:27-32). You calling people to unforgiveness is unbiblical and dangerous. :down:

adajos
May 13th, 2004, 03:56 PM
Knight:


The bottom line is the Roman Soldiers were not forgiven! At least not that we know of. Christ was simply asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they weren't aware of.

You've already admitted that the Roman Soldiers were unrepentant of their sin of executing the Son of God. You admit that Christ asked the Father to forgive them of their sin. Then you claim that they were not forgiven and that that is the "bottom line". Then you claim that


Even still we don't know if the Father forgave that aspect of the sin.

Which implies that we really don't know whether they were forgiven or not, which seems to contradict your bottom line. So is it the bottom line that God didn't forgive them or isn't it?

Regardless of whether the soldiers' sin was forgiven, would Christ have asked the Father to forgive their sin in spite of their unrepentance if there was something inherantly wrong with forgiving unrepentant sinners? I don't think that makes any sense.

If Christ asked the Father to forgive people who sinned, and were unrepentant (as you've admitted) than I think it's a safe and logical conclusion that forgiving unrepentant sinners in some circumstances is appropriate.

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Freak

Your brand of Christianity is quite cultic, Poly. Allow me to share with you God's Word on this subject...

We forgive regardless....

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven--if there was anything to forgive--I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. Freak.... what is the disagreement?

We all agree forgiveness is what God wants. Yet God wants forgivenenss to be given in the appropriate manner.

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Furthermore, forgiveness on a human level is necessary if we are to experience forgiveness from God (see Matthew 6:12-15). Forgiveness is also a crucial element in resolving anger and bitterness (see Ephesians 4:27-32). You calling people to unforgiveness is unbiblical and dangerous. :down: Your inability to understand almost every topic that is raised at TOL is dangerous. :kookoo:

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by adajos
Which implies that we really don't know whether they were forgiven or not, which seems to contradict your bottom line. So is it the bottom line that God didn't forgive them or isn't it? No. You are not reading my posts very carefully.

Let me spell it out for you.

Ultimately we are debating whether or not Luke 23:34 is a good proof text for the doctrine of forgiving WITHOUT repentance.

So lets review....

Here is what we know for sure....

Jesus didn't ask the Father to forgive the Roman soldiers for anything BUT the stuff they were unaware of. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they WERE aware of. This very fact proves my point I have been making all along which is Luke 23:34 is not a good proof text for claiming we should forgive without repentance.

Furthermore... we don't even know for sure if God forgave the Roman soldiers for the stuff they were unaware of and therefore makes the verse even weaker for using it in such a manner.

adajos
May 14th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Knight:


Ultimately we are debating whether or not Luke 23:34 is a good proof text for the doctrine of forgiving WITHOUT repentance.

I agree.


So lets review....

Here is what we know for sure....

Jesus didn't ask the Father to forgive the Roman soldiers for anything BUT the stuff they were unaware of. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking the Father to forgive them of the sin they WERE aware of. This very fact proves my point I have been making all along which is Luke 23:34 is not a good proof text for claiming we should forgive without repentance.

Furthermore... we don't even know for sure if God forgave the Roman soldiers for the stuff they were unaware of and therefore makes the verse even weaker for using it in such a manner.

Firstly, would Christ ask the Father to do something that He wouldn't do? Christ had the power to forgive sins Himself, it's quite clear from the NT. Surely Christ had forgiven the Roman soldiers Himself, because it would be quite bizarre for Him to ask the Father to do something He was unwilling to do Himself. So I think your objection of not being sure whether they were forgiven is false. I've pointed this out before and you didn't respond....

However, I think your whole dichotomy of the Roman soldiers' sin into two different sins---the sin they knew and the sin they didn't know--and for forgiving them for only one part of the same act is highly questionable at best.

There is no good reason to believe that when Christ said "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do" that He really meant "forgive them for the sin of executing the me, the Son of God, but don't forgive them for executing a person they know is innocent". That's quite a stretch, built on sheer speculation, not on what the Bible says.

Bottom line: I see no insinuation from the words of Christ or from the rest of Luke 23 that imply the Roman soldiers committed any sin other than ignorantly executing Christ. Whether they knew He was innocent or not is nothing but speculation--it does not say they were aware of it, nor does it say that it was a separate sin they committed.

I think your notion of two distinct sins in the same act that needed separate forgiveness from God is only in your head, not in the Bible.

You make your case based upon:


The Roman soldiers clearly knew they were crucifying an innocent man or at very least a man that their leader (Pilate) said had done no crime (Luke 23:4).

But that verse in no way mentions that the soldiers were there when Pilate said he committed no crime. For all we know Pilate gave the order for His crucifixion, and the soldiers were woken up and told to follow his orders. They might not have known any of what had transpired during the trial.

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by adajos
Firstly, would Christ ask the Father to do something that He wouldn't do? Uh.... yes. Yes He would and yes he did....

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” - Matthew 26:39

Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.” - Matthew 26:42


There is no good reason to believe that when Christ said "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do" that He really meant "forgive them for the sin of executing the me, the Son of God, but don't forgive them for executing a person they know is innocent". That's quite a stretch, built on sheer speculation, not on what the Bible says. I disagree completely.

I think the text is very clear.

But hey, you can think whatever you like.


Bottom line: I see no insinuation from the words of Christ or from the rest of Luke 23 that imply the Roman soldiers committed any sin other than ignorantly executing Christ. Whether they knew He was innocent or not is nothing but speculation--it does not say they were aware of it, nor does it say that it was a separate sin they committed.Are you saying the Roman soldiers weren't aware that Pilate had stated in public....

So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” - Luke 23:4


I think your notion of two distinct sins in the same act that needed separate forgiveness from God is only in your head, not in the Bible. I would say I just proved you wrong on that. :D


But that verse in no way mentions that the soldiers were there when Pilate said he committed no crime. For all we know Pilate gave the order for His crucifixion, and the soldiers were woken up and told to follow his orders. They might not have known any of what had transpired during the trial. LOL... :chuckle: OK my man.... if you want to believe that....have at it!

I think we have beat this topic to death.

Personally I think you failed miserably to make your point (which is weak in the first place). But it was an interesting volley none the less.

So... do you have any other biblical evidence to suggest we should forgive without repentance?

Aimiel
May 14th, 2004, 03:43 PM
It was well-known that only God can forgive sins, even the religious hypocrites of Jesus' day knew that, and because they did not recognize Jesus' Diety, thought that He could not forgive sin.

Freak
May 14th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Freak.... what is the disagreement? God doesn't call for us to forgive those who are only repentant....that's silly theology...

God's Word tells us...
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Please note the bold. Scripture doesn't require that you must forgive only those who repent but rather you must forgive those who wrong you regardless....I don't expect you to understand the most basic Biblical ideas but please try. Please.

Freak
May 14th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Knight sincerely asks
So... do you have any other biblical evidence to suggest we should forgive without repentance?

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Even when there is no repentance. We ought to not harbor unforgiveness but rather we should forgive those who wrong us regardless..:up:

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Freak

God doesn't call for us to forgive those who are only repentant....that's silly theology... Then your beef is with Jesus not me.

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Even when there is no repentance. We ought to not harbor unforgiveness but rather we should forgive those who wrong us regardless..:up: Are you SURE about that?????

“And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:4

Freak
May 14th, 2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Then your beef is with Jesus not me.

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3 Actually Jesus said this too:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

We forgive those who repent and we forgive those who don't repent. Embrace all the words of Christ, stop picking & choosing.

:down:

Freak
May 14th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Are you SURE about that?????

“And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” - Luke 17:4 I'm quite sure...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:06 PM
Freak... everytime Jesus spoke about forgiveness He didn't need to restate every principle regarding appropriate forgiveness.

Ephesians 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.

OK, so we are to forgive in the same manner hat Christ forgave us.

Remind me again... was that WITH or WITHOUT repentance?

Melody
May 14th, 2004, 06:07 PM
When did the woman caught in the act of adultary repent?

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Freak

We forgive those who repent and we forgive those who don't repent. Embrace all the words of Christ, stop picking & choosing. Again... Jesus said it... not me.

So your beef is with Jesus.... go complain to Him about it.

Melody
May 14th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Or the man let down through the roof?

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Melody

When did the woman caught in the act of adultary repent? We have been through this before.

This was a trap that Jesus outsmarted.

Yet for sake of argument. Even if it weren't a trap the story would still be a poor example because.....

Jesus commaned her to repent!

She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” - John 8:11

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:14 PM
What is so hard to understand about Jesus clear teaching on the matter?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:15 PM
......and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Say what???

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:20 PM
......and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

I thought that's what you said!

Melody
May 14th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by Knight

We have been through this before.

This was a trap that Jesus outsmarted.

Yet for sake of argument. Even if it weren't a trap the story would still be a poor example because.....

Jesus commaned her to repent!

She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.” - John 8:11

That is not a command to repent that is a commend to stop sinning, and even then it was after the act of forgiveness.

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:23 PM
Originally posted by Melody

That is not a command to repent that is a commend to stop sinning :shocked: I almost choked on my soda when I read that. :chuckle:

Melody, I like you. You seem like a nice person.

But try to be serious here.

Stopping sinning IS repenting!

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Melody

........ and even then it was after the act of forgiveness. So you think that is the object lesson from the story of the woman caught in adultery????

So you're saying...... Jesus was trying to tell us to forgive sinners and then command them to repent? :confused:

Uh... I think you better read that story again and try a little harder this time. Maybe you could pray for discernment.

Melody
May 14th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Knight

So you think that is the object lesson from the story of the woman caught in adultery????

So you're saying...... Jesus was trying to tell us to forgive sinners and then command them to repent? :confused:

Uh... I think you better read that story again and try a little harder this time. Maybe you could pray for discernment.

First of all we don't have the capability to forgive sinners, only God has that privilege. We do have the responsibility to forgive offenses done to us personally. And the scripture is clear that if we don't forgive those offenses then we have blocked our access for God to forgive us ours.

If you want to wait for someone to ask your forgiveness before you let go of the offenses. You go ahead, I don't have the time or emotional resources to keep track of everyone that has ever hurt me.

Knight
May 14th, 2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Melody

First of all we don't have the capability to forgive sinners, only God has that privilege.Hmmmm what shall we do with the dozens of verses in the Bible stating we should forgive?????


We do have the responsibility to forgive offenses done to us personally. And the scripture is clear that if we don't forgive those offenses then we have blocked our access for God to forgive us ours.Yet only to the repentant as Jesus so clearly has stated.


If you want to wait for someone to ask your forgiveness before you let go of the offenses. You go ahead, I don't have the time or emotional resources to keep track of everyone that has ever hurt me. I am curious.....


What is it about....

......and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

That you don't understand?

In your opinion.... what was Jesus REALLY saying when He said....
"......and if he repents, forgive him."?????

PureX
May 14th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Aparently, Jesus contradicted himself. So what now? Knight is picking the quotes that support his own philosophy of life, and others pick the opposing quotes that support theirs. And how would we know which is right? Do we count up the quotes and see which philosophy has more supporting quotes? Interesting. This must pose quite a dilemma for those who believe that the bible is perfect and inerrant in every word and phrase.

For myself, I will stick with what I believe to be the essence of Jesus' message - that God loves us and forgives us and wants us to love and forgive each other in turn. And that as God's love is NOT conditional, neither should ours be, if possible. So no repentances or apologies are required.

Freak
May 14th, 2004, 08:38 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Freak... everytime Jesus spoke about forgiveness He didn't need to restate every principle regarding appropriate forgiveness.

Jesus was quite clear:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Just because you have a problem with His words doesn't mean it's my problem. Quite the contrary, it's your problem.


Ephesians 4:32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ forgave you.



OK, so we are to forgive in the same manner hat Christ forgave us.

Remind me again... was that WITH or WITHOUT repentance?

Don't be silly, Knight we should forgive when there is repentance and when there isn't. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't forgive those who repent. But you have no right to say we can't forgive when there is no repentance.

Do you remember, Knight, when Jesus came to Jericho to a man who was accused of stealing? Perhaps it was legal stealing, but it was still stealing. He had over taxed the people. Jesus looked into the face of Zacchaeus and said, "I forgive you." There was a difference in Zacchaeus' personality after that. He said to the crowd, "If I have stolen from any of you, I am willing to restore it four fold and half of my goods I will give to the poor." There was a real change in his person when he began to walk and to live in Jesus Christ. He became a forgiven child of God.

Homework for Knight:

Was Jesus mistaken when He asked for us to forgive one another regardless of repentance...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


The context is clear that when you're in prayer to God you should possess a attitude of forgiveness not unforgiveness and forgive even when there is no repentance...

Yorzhik
May 14th, 2004, 10:01 PM
Knight: right-on brother!

P.S. this might be an all-time-great thread

Poly
May 15th, 2004, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Knight

In your opinion.... what was Jesus REALLY saying when He said....
"......and if he repents, forgive him."?????
Makes you wonder why he stuck, "if he repents" in there in the first place. He could have easily worded it, "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him... and forgive him." Apparently Jesus thought it important enough to stick that little important piece of info in there.
Wonder what he wanted them to do if he didn't repent? :think:

SOTK
May 15th, 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Normally, I would agree with Knight and Poly on their position. "No. You should only forgive the repentent."

But, in a case, where you're anger is affecting your life, you need to forgive the person for your own sanity.

:thumb:


I agree and have experienced this myself.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by Poly

Makes you wonder why he stuck, "if he repents" in there in the first place. He could have easily worded it, "Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him... and forgive him."

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

This is in the context of when you're praying by yourself, Poly. Your blindness speaks volumes. :down:

Poly
May 15th, 2004, 09:17 AM
Freak, why did Christ stick the "if he repents" part in there?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Poly

Freak, why did Christ stick the "if he repents" part in there? Why are you having trouble understanding?

We must forgive those who repent and those who don't repent. We should possess a forgiving attitude. Harboring unforgiveness is a problem. In fact Jesus tells us that when we pray we should forgive and there is no mention that we should wait for some repentance...

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by PureX

Aparently, Jesus contradicted himself. So what now? Knight is picking the quotes that support his own philosophy of life, and others pick the opposing quotes that support theirs. Actually that isn't true.

Jesus isn't contradicting Himself at all!

Jesus explained how to forgive (upon repentance).

And then later He simply tells people to forgive.

He doesn't need to re-explain the way to forgive every time He tells people that they should forgive.

Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

No contradiction in that whatsoever.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by SOTK4ever

:thumb:


I agree and have experienced this myself. Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

I would also go so far as to say I have often forgiven without repentance, especially when the nature of the sin against me is very minor.

But what about when the sin is monumental?

Should we really forgive the unrepentant molester of our children? Is that healthy for us? For our children? And for the molester himself? Isn't the goal to adhere to God's will? God is looking for repentance why should we work against God's will?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Knight


Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

No contradiction in that whatsoever.

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Knight


I would also go so far as to say I have often forgiven without repentance, especially when the nature of the sin against me is very minor. Hmmm. That's good because that's exactly what Jesus calls us to do--forgive.

...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


But what about when the sin is monumental?

Should we really forgive the unrepentant molester of our children? Is that healthy for us? Psalms 103 speaks of God not treating us as "our sins deserve." This is called mercy, grace. This is what God has called us to...

Consider the words of Jesus...
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that.


God is looking for repentance why should we work against God's will? Of course God is looking for repentance but even before there's repentance there is love for the unrepentant. John 3:16-17 would be good place to start for ya.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by Freak
...Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.
Some people do not forgive those who have already repented and that is wrong.

Therefore.... there is every reason to believe that Jesus was referring to those that continued to "hold" an offense against another when they shouldn't have in the verse you reference Mark 11:25

So what is the lesson?

Forgive those that repent!

And those that do not forgive when repentance is made are sinning in and of themselves!

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Freak

Of course God is looking for repentance but even before there's repentance there is love for the unrepentant. John 3:16-17 would be good place to start for ya. And true love is not always manifested as acceptance, forgiveness and mercy is it?

For if God is love and love were pure acceptance and forgiveness then no one would go to hell would they?

God is love indeed. But God displays true love! True love abhors evil and clings to what is good.

PureX
May 15th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by Knight No contradiction in that whatsoever. Well it certainly looks contradictory to me.

"If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him."

Perhaps now would be a good time to remember that Jesus did not write these, but various unknown writers did, and that they were only copying and interpreting it from previous texts.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Some people do not forgive those who have already repented and that is wrong.

Therefore.... there is every reason to believe that Jesus was referring to those that continued to "hold" an offense against another when they shouldn't have in the verse you reference Mark 11:25

Pure speculation that Jesus is requiring in this teaching that we should forgive only those who are repentant, for repentance is not mentioned. He is clearly teaching that you should forgive and not hold unto unforgiveness in your heart.


Forgive those that repent! And those whom are unrepentant. Matthew puts it this way...

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Knight

And true love is not always manifested as acceptance, forgiveness and mercy is it? True love is found in the words of Jesus who taught...

And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.


True love abhors evil and clings to what is good. Did you know God is kind to the wicked by allowing them to have children, to enjoy marriage, to enjoy his creation. In fact, God has blessed pagans with these blessings.

Do you now see that God blesses pagans?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input. Uh... that wasn't anecdotal evidence.

I suggest you get a dictionary. They come in very handy sometimes.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by PureX

Well it certainly looks contradictory to me.

"If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him."

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him."

Did you read this....?

Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Ok... so here we are at our 100th post on this most interesting thread and what do we know? We now know that Freak thinks that God wants us to forgive unconditionally with or without repentance.

What on odd theology.

So tell me Freak if Jesus really wants us to forgive WITHOUT repentance why doesn't He follow His own example?

Why did He only forgive the repentant thief on the cross? Why didn't He forgive the other guy as well?

Moreover why doesn't He forgive EVERYONE???

Why is anyone in hell?

Shouldn't EVERYONE be forgiven?

Why did John the Baptist cry for repentance? Why didn't he just yell through the streets "all are already forgiven!!!"

Is the government unrighteous for punishing criminals? According to Freak the government would only be righteous if they forgave all sins and crimes. You are forgiven Mr. child molester and have a great day! :rolleyes:

So tell us Freak.....
Why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Why doesn't Jesus forgive unconditionally?

PureX
May 15th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Did you read this....?

Think of it this way....
The boss at Taco bell explains to the employees how to make a taco. Later he tells them to make tacos when the orders are coming in. The boss doesn't need to re-explain making a taco every time he asks his employees to make a taco. Yeah, I read it. Sorry, but your analogy won't fly. "...if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them" is not a qualified statement. There is no implication, here, that any previous requirement about repentance applies. In fact, the words "anything" and "anyone" both imply that there are no conditions or qualifications. Both words specifically mean ALL instances of perceived slight. You just don't want to admit that these statements are contradicting each other.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Do you now see that God blesses pagans? He has also cursed their ungodly lifestyles and eventually sends them to hell if they don't............


......don't do.......


......don't do what?????


What is it the pagan must do to get forgiveness of sin?

Please answer me that.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by PureX

Yeah, I read it. Sorry, but your analogy won't fly. "...if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them" is not a qualified statement. There is no implication, here, that any previous requirement about repentance applies. In fact, the words "anything" and "anyone" both imply that there are no conditions or qualifications. Both words specifically mean ALL instances of perceived slight. You just don't want to admit that these statements are contradicting each other. You shouldn't hold anything against anyone that you shouldn't be holding.

Plain and simple.

Jesus has already explained as did God Himself through the entire message of the Bible that repentance is required for forgiveness.

He doesn't need to state it over and over each and everytime the detailed process of what He has already made so crystal clear.

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Please comment on Jesus clear teaching in Luke 17:3 PureX.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

Knight: right-on brother!

P.S. this might be an all-time-great thread Thanks!

Isn't wacky how liberalized modern day Christianity is?

Not one of these "super forgivers" will touch or comment on Luke 17:3 yet it is the most clear statement on the issue in the entire Bible!

PureX
May 15th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Knight You shouldn't hold anything against anyone that you shouldn't be holding.

Plain and simple.You should have been Bill Clinton's lawyer. *smile*

Originally posted by Knight Jesus has already explained as did God Himself through the entire message of the Bible that repentance is required for forgiveness.A whole lot of people who have read the bible cover to cover many times will disagree with you about that. But then that just goes to show that much of what the bible authors wrote contradicts itself, and people are going to interpret the text to mean what they want it to mean, anyway.

This is why we should not be treating the bible as if it were absolute.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by PureX
A whole lot of people who have read the bible cover to cover many times will disagree with you about that.Well then... a whole lot of people are wrong.

Anyone who reads the Bible and doesn't get that repentance doesn't play a part in forgiveness of sins would be just plain ignorant.

“It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.” - Jeremiah 36:3

“But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” - Matthew 9:13

PureX
May 15th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Well then... a whole lot of people are wrong. Of course they are, because as we all know, you can't possibly be wrong.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Uh... that wasn't anecdotal evidence.

I suggest you get a dictionary. They come in very handy sometimes. dictionary.com defines anecdotal as...

Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.

Your "taco bell" story was based on your casual observation.

Simply laughable, Knight. :down:

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Knight

He has also cursed their ungodly lifestyles and eventually sends them to hell if they don't............


......don't do.......


......don't do what?????


What is it the pagan must do to get forgiveness of sin?

Please answer me that. But you do acknowledge that God blesses the pagan, right? And this without repentance, imagine that.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by PureX

Of course they are, because as we all know, you can't possibly be wrong. No comment on Luke 17:3 eh? :rolleyes:

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Knight

We now know that Freak thinks that God wants us to forgive unconditionally with or without repentance. No kidding bright eyes.

God's Word teaches we ought to have a forgiving attitude and not to harbor unforgiveness...

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.



What on odd theology. Odd? Yes!!! Your theology is odd! I don't believe we should harbor unforgiveness but rather we should forgive.


So tell me Freak if Jesus really wants us to forgive WITHOUT repentance why doesn't He follow His own example?

...for salvation God requires repentance but for our dealings with people on a daily basis Jesus tells us to be forgiving...

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.


Is the government unrighteous for punishing criminals? No. Silly boy.


According to Freak the government would only be righteous if they forgave all sins and crimes. No. I believe the gospel is a more powerful tool then the death penalty. See 1 Cor. 6 for an example. Imagine that.


So tell us Freak.....
Why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Why doesn't Jesus forgive unconditionally? God does love us unconditionally. :kookoo:

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Freak

dictionary.com defines anecdotal as...

Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis.

Your "taco bell" story was based on your casual observation.

Simply laughable, Knight. :down: LOL... my Taco Bell story wasn't an observation!

Seriously Freak why do you have such a hard time with such simple concepts?

My taco bell story was what we like to call a.... "analogy".

A resemblance of relations; an agreement or likeness between things in some circumstances or effects, when the things are otherwise entirely different. Thus, learning enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before hidden.

So Freak.... tell us why doesn't Jesus forgive EVERYONE without their repentance?

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Ok... so here we are at our 100th post on this most interesting thread and what do we know? We now know that Freak thinks that God wants us to forgive unconditionally with or without repentance.

What on odd theology.

So tell me Freak if Jesus really wants us to forgive WITHOUT repentance why doesn't He follow His own example?

Why did He only forgive the repentant thief on the cross? Why didn't He forgive the other guy as well?

Moreover why doesn't He forgive EVERYONE???

Why is anyone in hell?

Shouldn't EVERYONE be forgiven?

Why did John the Baptist cry for repentance? Why didn't he just yell through the streets "all are already forgiven!!!"

Is the government unrighteous for punishing criminals? According to Freak the government would only be righteous if they forgave all sins and crimes. You are forgiven Mr. child molester and have a great day! :rolleyes:

So tell us Freak.....
Why doesn't God forgive unconditionally? Why doesn't Jesus forgive unconditionally? Great point, Knight. :BRAVO:

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Freak
God does love us unconditionally. :kookoo: EVERYONE????

Or... just the repentant???

Please answer.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Knight

LOL... my Taco Bell story wasn't an observation! Ha!Of course it is. Silly boy. You had to have a reference point for your story and you used what you have observed from your experience with "taco hell."

:kookoo:

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Freak

No. I believe the gospel is a more powerful tool then the death penalty. See 1 Cor. 6 for an example. Imagine that. Maybe judges should sentence murderers to attend Bible studies at their local church.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Great point, Knight. :BRAVO: Your signature rings true! :D

Melody
May 15th, 2004, 04:52 PM
You don't get it yet. There is a difference between forgiving someone for a personal offense and some being forgiven for their sins.

We don't have that ability. It is not in our sphere of influence. God makes the rules not us, and he says that if you don't forgive others he won't forgive you.

Just because you forgive someone does not mean that their sins are forgiven. Those remain between them and God.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Freak... does God forgive EVERYONE (even the unrepentant) unconditionally?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Knight

EVERYONE????

Or... just the repentant???

Please answer. He loves everyone...

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son...

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[8] and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that..

Homework for Knight...

If you love those who love you (the repentant), what reward will you get? Are not even the tex collectors doing that?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Melody

You don't get it yet. There is a difference between forgiving someone for a personal offense and some being forgiven for their sins.

We don't have that ability. It is not in our sphere of influence. God makes the rules not us, and he says that if you don't forgive others he won't forgive you.

Just because you forgive someone does not mean that their sins are forgiven. Those remain between them and God. Just perhaps Knight will understand this simple Biblical concept, just maybe.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Melody

You don't get it yet. There is a difference between forgiving someone for a personal offense and some being forgiven for their sins.Good point that's why Jesus made it so crystal clear.....

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Care to comment on that?


We don't have that ability. It is not in our sphere of influence. God makes the rules not us, and he says that if you don't forgive others he won't forgive you.

Just because you forgive someone does not mean that their sins are forgiven. Those remain between them and God. That is only stating the obvious. No one here (that I am aware of) is claiming that we have the ability to forgive sins the way God does so your point is irrelevant and off topic.

Please comment on Luke 17:3.

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Freak

If you love those who love you (the repentant), what reward will you get? Are not even the tex collectors doing that? It is loving to tell the lost that they need to repent. It is not loving to pretend they are forgiven regardless of whether they repent.

Come on, Freak! You're starting to sound like smaller.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Maybe judges should sentence murderers to attend Bible studies at their local church. What did Jesus do with Paul, the murderer? Did it work?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Freak

He loves everyone...I didn't ask if God "loved" EVERYONE did I? I asked if God FORGIVES EVERYONE (even the unrepentant) unconditionally.

Well does He?

Please answer the question.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Freak

What did Jesus do with Paul, the murderer? Did it work? Does He do that with EVERYONE???

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:05 PM
Freak... does God forgive EVERYONE (even the unrepentant) unconditionally?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:07 PM
From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” - Matthew 4:17

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:08 PM
Melody..... what did Jesus mean when He said....?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Melody
May 15th, 2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

It is loving to tell the lost that they need to repent. It is not loving to pretend they are forgiven regardless of whether they repent.

Come on, Freak! You're starting to sound like smaller.

And it is unforgiving spirits like yours that make me start to understand smaller.

Melody
May 15th, 2004, 05:12 PM
When David sinned did he ask forgiveness of those that he injured, or of God?

Was he forgiven or not?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Melody

And it is unforgiving spirits like yours that make me start to understand smaller. We aren't unforgiving!

I always forgive the repentant.

Now....

Melody..... what did Jesus mean when He said....?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

PureX
May 15th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Knight

No comment on Luke 17:3 eh? :rolleyes: I don't take the bible as the literal or inerrant word of God, so I don't have a problem with the fact that these quotes contradict themselves. I would say that this is only natural considering the many authors and translations involved. When I read the bible I'm able to take this into account, and trust that God's spirit within me will help me to see through the contradictions to the truth. And if I'm wrong, I can accept this as just a part of being human and change and keep moving on. I don't have to have some magical static rock of righteousness to guide my life. I don't have to be right all the time. After all, I am forgiven even if I'm wrong. *smile*

I think that quote in Luke 17 is wrong. I think God's love and forgiveness are unconditional and are ours regardless of whether we "repent" or not. Now, we can still refuse to recognize that love, and we can still be miserable by this choice. But that's our own doing, not God's.

SOTK
May 15th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Anecdotal evidence is interesting, I have some myself!

And I can tell you that my anecdotal evidence is very different from yours.

That's why "The battle of the anecdotal evidence" is futile.

But I do appreciate your input.

I would also go so far as to say I have often forgiven without repentance, especially when the nature of the sin against me is very minor.

But what about when the sin is monumental?

Should we really forgive the unrepentant molester of our children? Is that healthy for us? For our children? And for the molester himself? Isn't the goal to adhere to God's will? God is looking for repentance why should we work against God's will?

Sorry Knight. I don't really care what you have to say on this one. I have learned to forgive so that I don't drink. That works for me, and I will stick with it!

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by PureX

I don't take the bible as the literal or inerrant word of God...

I think that quote in Luke 17 is wrong. Freak... Melody... do you agree with PureX?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by SOTK4ever

Sorry Knight. I don't really care what you have to say on this one. I have learned to forgive so that I don't drink. That works for me, and I will stick with it! OK, if that's what you want to do... but for me..... I will stick with Jesus!

SOTK
May 15th, 2004, 05:23 PM
whatever

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Melody

When David sinned did he ask forgiveness of those that he injured, or of God?

Was he forgiven or not? The man he injured was dead!

Melody
May 15th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Knight

We aren't unforgiving!

I always forgive the repentant.

Now....

Melody..... what did Jesus mean when He said....?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Of Course we should forgive someone that asks our forgiveness.

But our forgiveness should not depend on their repentance. Because our own forgiveness depends on us forgiving others.

There is not one scripture stating that our forgiveness of others depends on their requesting it.

Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

You are putting a stipulation on Your forgiveness that puts you in a very precarious position. For if you are wrong you are living in dangerous territory.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by Melody
There is not one scripture stating that our forgiveness of others depends on their requesting it. Not one?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Please comment on Luke 17:3.

At least PureX did!

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Does He do that with EVERYONE??? :kookoo: If He did it to Paul then He can do it to anybody else.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:11 PM
From a 'less than scriptural' perspective and more of a personal one, I would find it nearly impossible to not forgive someone who sincerely asked for forgiveness.

Maybe I'm just a softie........

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Knight

I didn't ask if God "loved" EVERYONE did I? See your own post #114. :doh:



I asked if God FORGIVES EVERYONE (even the unrepentant) unconditionally.

Well does He?

Please answer the question. Silly question. What does Jesus say that we must do...

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Freak... Melody... do you agree with PureX? Knight, I've lost respect for you. That was a stupid question to ask me. I believe the Old and New Testaments are inspired by the Triune God.

Knight, do deny the deity of Christ?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Knight

OK, if that's what you want to do... but for me..... I will stick with Jesus! Divisive. :down:

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Homework:

Do you believe we should harbor unforgiveness, bitterness and anger towards those who have hurt us?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by SOTK4ever

Sorry Knight. I don't really care what you have to say on this one. I have learned to forgive so that I don't drink. That works for me, and I will stick with it! :up: don't let the plot lovers take your eyes off Jesus who said:

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Freak... do you forgive the devil?

Do you forgive the devil for what he has done?

Do you forgive the devil for what he is still doing?

Do you forgive the "demons" you cast out?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

From a 'less than scriptural' perspective and more of a personal one, I would find it nearly impossible to not forgive someone who sincerely asked for forgiveness.

Maybe I'm just a softie........ I think most people feel the same way. I know I do.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:28 PM
It's obvious, guys. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes. Just as we ask forgiveness, so must we be willing to forgive. Anything less would be arrogant and superficial.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Freak... do you forgive the devil?

Ladies and gentleman, this must be the most idiotic post/question ever written. Jesus told us humans to forgive other humans not fallen angels, Knight. Were you aware of this? Did you learn your Bible from plot materials?

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Not granting forgiveness to the repentant is a personal indictment, the sentence being spiritual separation from God and your fellow man.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

It's obvious, guys. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes. Just as we ask forgiveness, so must we be willing to forgive. Anything less would be arrogant and superficial. That really isn't the issue. The issue is.... should we forgive the unrepentant (ya know... those that aren't asking or do not want forgiveness)?

What say ye?

Should we forgive Al Qaeda?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Knight, for your benefit:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

This was for us humans to other humans not fallen angels. Get it?

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Not granting forgiveness to the repentant is a personal indictment, the sentence being spiritual separation from God and your fellow man. Again... BB I think you missed the topic just a tad. :D

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Again... BB I thihnk you missed the topic just a tad. :D

Probably, I came in kinda late on this discussion and haven't read most of the responses....


Never mind. :D

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Knight

That really isn't the issue. The issue is.... should we forgive the unrepentant (ya know... those that aren't asking or do not want forgiveness)?

What say ye?

Should we forgive Al Qaeda? We should punish them. But we should model Christ' example:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Knight, for your benefit:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

This was for us humans to other humans not fallen angels. Get it? OK so your answer is "no". Good! :up:

Now maybe you can respond to....

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Freak

We should punish them. Punish them?????????? Why not forgive them???:confused:

Knight
May 15th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Probably, I came in kinda late on this discussion and haven't read most of the responses....


Never mind. :D That's OK!

So.... should we forgive the unrepentant?

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Knight

That really isn't the issue. The issue is.... should we forgive the unrepentant (ya know... those that aren't asking or do not want forgiveness)?

Sorry.



What say ye?

Should we forgive Al Qaeda?

No, of course not. I cannot forgive them, they are actively killing my fellow countrymen and would just as easily kill me if they had the opportunity.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Punish them?????????? Why not forgive them???:confused: Re-read what I posted. Knight, you're losing it.

Greywolf
May 15th, 2004, 06:36 PM
Is repentance necessarily the same as asking for forgiveness?

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Knight

OK so your answer is "no". Good! :up:

Now maybe you can respond to....

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3 I already answered your questions. We should forgive those who repent and those who do not....

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob


No, of course not. I cannot forgive them, they are actively killing my fellow countrymen and would just as easily kill me if they had the opportunity.

I assume that is the wrong answer........

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I assume that is the wrong answer........ BB, Knight would like us to believe that it's ok to harbor hate, anger, and bitterness towards those who have hurts us. That's downight dangerous and silly.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Freak

BB, Knight would like us to believe that it's ok to harbor hate, anger, and bitterness towards those who have hurts us. That's downright dangerous and silly.

I will not pretend to know what Knight's intentions are, but it is natural to hate people who are intent on killing you. They certainly hate us!!!! If I let down my guard, I will become a victim.

Sorry Freak, I HATE the men who killed Nick Berg. I would kill them myself if the situation was provided.

It is what it is.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I will not pretend to know what Knight's intentions are, but it is natural to hate people who are intent on killing you. They certainly hate us!!!! If I let down my guard, I will become a victim.

Sorry Freak, I HATE the men who killed Nick Berg. I would kill them myself if the situation was provided.

It is what it is. That's exactly what Knight is teaching...we should hate those who have hurt us. Harbor it in your heart. Let the hate grow into rage. Don't ever forgive.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Freak

That's exactly what Knight is teaching...we should hate those who have hurt us. Harbor it in your heart. Let the hate grow into rage. Don't ever forgive.

Now wait a minute. I didn't say I would never forgive, Freak, you are twisting my words. Go back a page to my first posts in this thread, you will see that your accusation isn't accurate.

However, those evil, butchering, Arab terrorists are no where near repentance. As such, I hate them and would kill them if I had the opportunity.

I'll take my chances with God and what he may think about my actions.

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Freak

That's exactly what Knight is teaching...we should hate those who have hurt us. Harbor it in your heart. Let the hate grow into rage. Don't ever forgive. That is not what Knight is teaching, and you know it.

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Freak has a propensity for disappearing when the debate gets heated.

Where'd you go, Freak?

Leo Volont
May 15th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Freak has a propensity for disappearing when the debate gets heated.

Where'd you go, Freak?

"Heated?"

Maybe he needs to go off and have a cigerette, and then recoup his forces somewhat.

Turbo
May 15th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Melody

Of Course we should forgive someone that asks our forgiveness.

But our forgiveness should not depend on their repentance. Because our own forgiveness depends on us forgiving others.

There is not one scripture stating that our forgiveness of others depends on their requesting it.Luke 17:3, Matthew 18:15-17.


Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

Our forgiveness does not depend on whether we forgive others because we are already forgiven. Those who were under the dispensation of circumcision had to forgive (the repentant) in order to be forgiven by God. That was who Jesus addressed. But those under the dispensation of uncircumcision should forgive (the repentant) because we are already forgiven.

And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you. Ephesians 4:32
Do you see how Paul is saying something different than what Jesus said? Though it's not really the topic of this thread, the distinction is important.

So according to Paul were are supposed to forgive others similarly to how God forgave us. Now, does God forgive the unrepentant? When you put your faith in Christ, did you do so with an attitude of unrepentance?


Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Luke records it this way:
"And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him." Luke 17:4

And right before the verses you quoted, Jesus laid out that one should rebuke the sinner, if he repents, forgive... if he doesn't, turn up the heat... and if he utterly refuses to repent, "let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." In other words, don't forgive him anyway.
"Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Matthew 18:15-17

BillyBob
May 15th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by Leo Volont

"Heated?"

You know what I mean.


Maybe he needs to go off and have a cigarette, and then recoup his forces somewhat.

Maybe he is possessed! :shocked:

Maybe he just needs a beer. :cheers:

I dunno, it just seems like he makes a dash for the door right when things start to get interesting.

temple2006
May 15th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Knight...Who says he did not forgive the other thief?

adajos
May 15th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Knight:


Uh.... yes. Yes He would and yes he did....

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” - Matthew 26:39

(emphasis mine)

You'll notice that when Christ is asking the Father for something He wants, but thinks He can't have--not being crucified--He qualifies His request with "if it is possible". There is similar qualification of Christ's request of the Father in the second passage He spoke at Gethsemene.

Not so with "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" from the cross. In that, He knew He was not asking for something that would undermine the salvation of humanity, as He knew in your examples.

Do you agree Christ had the power to forgive sins?

Would Christ ask the Father to forgive the same sin that Christ Himself would not forgive?

Your objection of, "we don't know if the Father really did forgive them" is very weak, because there is no good answer to that last question, which seems to be the position you espouse in order to cast doubt on a fact that destroys your argument.



There is no good reason to believe that when Christ said "Father, forgive them for they don't know what they do" that He really meant "forgive them for the sin of executing the me, the Son of God, but don't forgive them for executing a person they know is innocent". That's quite a stretch, built on sheer speculation, not on what the Bible says.

I disagree completely.

I think the text is very clear.

But hey, you can think whatever you like.

Yes, the text is very clear. It's that very clarity of the text that shows your arbitrary creation of two distinct sins requiring separate forgiveness for one act is unBiblical.



Bottom line: I see no insinuation from the words of Christ or from the rest of Luke 23 that imply the Roman soldiers committed any sin other than ignorantly executing Christ. Whether they knew He was innocent or not is nothing but speculation--it does not say they were aware of it, nor does it say that it was a separate sin they committed.

Are you saying the Roman soldiers weren't aware that Pilate had stated in public....

So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” - Luke 23:4

Nope, I'm saying the Bible doesn't break the sins for which the Roman soldiers needed forgiveness into two categories like you do.

The Bible doesn't say that the Roman soldiers knew He was innocent, you are assuming they do. You are further assuming that pagan Roman soldiers were aware that they were committing a sin in following the orders given to them to execute a man believed to be innocent by Pilate. You are even further assuming that even if they thought they were sinning that the same act would need to be forgiven twice.

Again, it's the clarity of the text that highlights your false assumptions. If you abide by the situation as written in that passage without tenuous theorizing, then you're whole theology of "never forgive unless forgiveness is asked for" is uprooted. No wonder you have to take such flights of fancy with the text.



I think your notion of two distinct sins in the same act that needed separate forgiveness from God is only in your head, not in the Bible.

I would say I just proved you wrong on that.

I would say "nope". I can think of nowhere in the Bible where the same act needed to be forgiven twice as apparently the Roman soldiers did in your interpretation. Without your artificially constructed sin dichotomy, your deck of cards collapses.


LOL... OK my man.... if you want to believe that....have at it!

I think we have beat this topic to death.

Personally I think you failed miserably to make your point (which is weak in the first place). But it was an interesting volley none the less.

So... do you have any other biblical evidence to suggest we should forgive without repentance?

I don't know about "beat to death." I do think we've come to a point where you're not going to budge, even in the face of compelling evidence.

I disagree with your assessment of my case--but then again, I think your case is built on nothing other than biased speculation

Melody
May 15th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I will not pretend to know what Knight's intentions are, but it is natural to hate people who are intent on killing you. They certainly hate us!!!! If I let down my guard, I will become a victim.

Sorry Freak, I HATE the men who killed Nick Berg. I would kill them myself if the situation was provided.

It is what it is.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.

Lighthouse
May 15th, 2004, 11:34 PM
Knight-
I think Melody's point is that the verse doesn't say to only forgive them if they ask for it. It only says that we are to forgive them, when they do. I will not depend on someone else's hate to define my love. But just because I have forgiven, that doesn't mean I will forget. And it definitely doesn't mean that I will let it happen again.

Freak
May 15th, 2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by adajos

Knight:



You'll notice that when Christ is asking the Father for something He wants, but thinks He can't have--not being crucified--He qualifies His request with "if it is possible". There is similar qualification of Christ's request of the Father in the second passage He spoke at Gethsemene.

Not so with "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" from the cross. In that, He knew He was not asking for something that would undermine the salvation of humanity, as He knew in your examples.

Do you agree Christ had the power to forgive sins?

Would Christ ask the Father to forgive the same sin that Christ Himself would not forgive?

Your objection of, "we don't know if the Father really did forgive them" is very weak, because there is no good answer to that last question, which seems to be the position you espouse in order to cast doubt on a fact that destroys your argument.



I disagree completely.

I think the text is very clear.

But hey, you can think whatever you like.

Yes, the text is very clear. It's that very clarity of the text that shows your arbitrary creation of two distinct sins requiring separate forgiveness for one act is unBiblical.



Are you saying the Roman soldiers weren't aware that Pilate had stated in public....

So Pilate said to the chief priests and the crowd, “I find no fault in this Man.” - Luke 23:4 [/quote]

Nope, I'm saying the Bible doesn't break the sins for which the Roman soldiers needed forgiveness into two categories like you do.

The Bible doesn't say that the Roman soldiers knew He was innocent, you are assuming they do. You are further assuming that pagan Roman soldiers were aware that they were committing a sin in following the orders given to them to execute a man believed to be innocent by Pilate. You are even further assuming that even if they thought they were sinning that the same act would need to be forgiven twice.

Again, it's the clarity of the text that highlights your false assumptions. If you abide by the situation as written in that passage without tenuous theorizing, then you're whole theology of "never forgive unless forgiveness is asked for" is uprooted. No wonder you have to take such flights of fancy with the text.



I would say I just proved you wrong on that.[/quote]

I would say "nope". I can think of nowhere in the Bible where the same act needed to be forgiven twice as apparently the Roman soldiers did in your interpretation. Without your artificially constructed sin dichotomy, your deck of cards collapses.




I don't know about "beat to death." I do think we've come to a point where you're not going to budge, even in the face of compelling evidence.

I disagree with your assessment of my case--but then again, I think your case is built on nothing other than biased speculation Yep, this pretty much sums it up biblically. Case close. :up: :chuckle:

BillyBob
May 16th, 2004, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Melody

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Luk 6:28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.

You are right, let's just lay down our 'arms', open the borders and let the Muslims kill us all. Sound good to you????

Freak
May 16th, 2004, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

You are right, let's just lay down our 'arms', open the borders and let the Muslims kill us all. Sound good to you???? BB, let's simply hate all the muslims and kill them all, right?

Melody
May 16th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

You are right, let's just lay down our 'arms', open the borders and let the Muslims kill us all. Sound good to you????

You are not argueing with me, you are argueing with the scriptures, you don't like what Jesus said. Take it up with Him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You show me one apostle or christian in the scriptures that lifted up arms to save their own lives.

BillyBob
May 16th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Melody

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the scriptures, you don't like what Jesus said. Take it up with Him.

First of all, This is a little more serious than a dispute with a member of your community. Secondly, you see what submitting to the bad guys ultimately resulted in for Jesus. That was his destiny, not mine.


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I don't fear them, I just want to kill them.


You show me one apostle or Christian in the scriptures that lifted up arms to save their own lives.

Hey, if you don't want to protect yourself and your family, that's your choice, but I can't think of anything less Christian.


Besides, martyrdom really isn't my cup of tea.

When this thing really gets bad, and it's going to, you may see things differently. If not, have a nice funeral. I would like to come and pay my respects to you, but I'll be too busy fighting Muslims, sorry.

BillyBob
May 16th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Freak

BB, let's simply hate all the muslims and kill them all, right?

It's starting to look that way......

BillyBob
May 16th, 2004, 01:42 PM
For the record, I do not hate any group of people based solely on their religious or philosophical persuasion. I also do not think that every Muslim is evil, nor do I think that every Muslim is a terrorist. However, I can't tell the good ones from the bad ones and the good ones don't seem to be doing much to help weed out the bad ones, so I am inclined to believe that many more of them are bad than I previously thought. That being the case, with all the violence directed towards Americans from Muslims, I am prepared to take a stand in the most militant fashion. Interpret that as you wish.


::This message was approved by BillyBob::

Nineveh
May 16th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by ebenz47037

Normally, I would agree with Knight and Poly on their position. "No. You should only forgive the repentent."

But, in a case, where you're anger is affecting your life, you need to forgive the person for your own sanity.

Does anger have to be one and the same with forgiveness?

I can think of instances in my life where I have been sinned against and the person has not asked for forginess (has not repented). I'm not angry at them, the emotion of anger does not influence my life even though they are unrepentant and I am unforgiving.

I would most certainly forgive them if asked, that is what I am called to do. However there would be no "emotional" release about it.

Is it fair to say, un/forgiveness doesn't have to include the aspect of anger at all and vise versa?

Lucky
May 17th, 2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by Greywolf

Is repentance necessarily the same as asking for forgiveness?
No. Asking forgiveness is merely that. Repentance is much more. It involves making an about-face, putting an end to and turning away from the sin.

Lucky
May 17th, 2004, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Knight

What is so hard to understand about Jesus clear teaching on the matter?

“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Originally posted by Knight

......and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

Originally posted by Knight

Say what???

Originally posted by Knight

......and if he repents, forgive him. - Luke 17:3

I thought that's what you said!
:chuckle:

Lucky
May 17th, 2004, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

P.S. this might be an all-time-great thread.
When I start a thread, you know it'll be a good one! :D

Lucky
May 17th, 2004, 01:38 AM
I've never understood the idea of having to forgive someone who does not want forgiveness. It just doesn't make sense. You cannot force someone to take the forgiveness you grant them anymore than you can force them to repent. You can tell them "I'm willing and waiting to grant you forgiveness, but you have to ask for it." Otherwise, if they don't want it, they are rejecting the forgiveness. Thus, the "forgiveness transaction" is incomplete and you haven't truly forgiven them, no matter how much you tried. But you are not to blame for them not wanting forgiveness. The guilt is on their hands, so to speak. After all, it was their offense!

firechyld
May 17th, 2004, 01:41 AM
Am I the only person here you thinks that you forgive someone for your own sake, not theirs?

Lucky
May 17th, 2004, 01:49 AM
Perhaps in those situations where there is a lot of hatred built up, the person you are really forgiving is yourself, not the person you hate. In other words, "forgiving them" is just a cheesy cover up for you repenting of (turning away from) your rage and hatred. That it is more of a need to be forgiven than a need to forgive.

firechyld
May 17th, 2004, 01:59 AM
Hrmmm... not exactly how i see it.

I've been through a lot in my not-that-many years, and I've had a lot of nasty things done to me by others. But I deal, I forgive, and I move on. Holding onto a grudge is only going to damage me, not them.

BillyBob
May 17th, 2004, 06:33 AM
I hate this topic.

Please forgive me.

:freak:

SOTK
May 17th, 2004, 06:43 AM
:chuckle:

Chileice
May 17th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by firechyld

Hrmmm... not exactly how i see it.

I've been through a lot in my not-that-many years, and I've had a lot of nasty things done to me by others. But I deal, I forgive, and I move on. Holding onto a grudge is only going to damage me, not them.

Colossians 3 kind of clears it all up, I do believe.

Character of the Christian Life and Home

Originally posted by Paul
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
The first question is for everyone is: are you a Christian? If you are, you shouldn't be focused on this life and all its troubles and all the offenses that could offend you. Billy-Bob, if you are Christ's you are already dead. If you really believe Christ saving your own physical life shouldn't matter so much. Not to say that life isn't important, but their are issues even bigger. I thank God for the thousands of Christians who died in the first centuries to show how much Christ loved, to spread Christianity, not by military might but by a willingness to suffer for the sake of Christ that His Kingdom might grow.



Originally posted by Paul
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

If you are a Christian, you shopuld be in a process of renewal. The sisn should be becoming less... not the sins of others, but rather your own sins. How can you put away anger, wrath and malice from your mouth if you don't forgive? One cannot forgive if they don't see themselves as forgiven. For that reason I have serioud doubts about the relation with Christ that someone has if they say it is somehow wrong to forgive. I do not believe they have experienced forgiveness. Because if we receive a full and complete forgiveness for our sins, we will want to forgive others of theirs. Paul says so as he continues:

Character of the New Man

Originally posted by Paul
12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.

Longsuffering rather than a trigger finger. Bearing with one another. That means it won't be easy. Sometimes I will be bearing the burden of someone who will not repent or ask forgiveness. Yet, I, as the mature Christian am willing to bear that load for the sake of Christ. There can never be peace in the body if everyone is looking for grudges to hold onto. "As Christ forgave, so you also MUST do." It is not an optional phrase. You can try to rationalize it away... but at you own peril. Forgiveness is Christianity. it is the reason Jesus lived, died and rose again. If we do not offer the world forgiveness, we do not offer the world the message of Christ.

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I assume that is the wrong answer........ Not according to me! :D

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I will not pretend to know what Knight's intentions are, but it is natural to hate people who are intent on killing you. They certainly hate us!!!! If I let down my guard, I will become a victim. :thumb:

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Freak, you are twisting my words. If only I had a dime for every........ :D

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Hey, if you don't want to protect yourself and your family, that's your choice, but I can't think of anything less Christian.
BB.... you are impressing me on this thread... very nice!

Good work! :up:

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Lucky

I've never understood the idea of having to forgive someone who does not want forgiveness. It just doesn't make sense. You cannot force someone to take the forgiveness you grant them anymore than you can force them to repent. You can tell them "I'm willing and waiting to grant you forgiveness, but you have to ask for it." Otherwise, if they don't want it, they are rejecting the forgiveness. Thus, the "forgiveness transaction" is incomplete and you haven't truly forgiven them, no matter how much you tried. But you are not to blame for them not wanting forgiveness. The guilt is on their hands, so to speak. After all, it was their offense! :thumb:

Great post.

God doesn't force forgiveness on the unrepentant and He doesn't want us to either.

Poly
May 17th, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Knight

If only I had a dime for every........ :D
Hey, I've got it! Let's get a fund raiser going. Everybody donates a dime for every time Freak twists words. TOL could easily be supported that way. :bannana:

Knight
May 17th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Hey, I've got it! Let's get a fund raiser going. Everybody donates a dime for every time Freak twists words. TOL could easily be supported that way. :bannana: :ha: We'll be rich.... RICH I tell you!!!!

BillyBob
May 17th, 2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Knight

BB.... you are impressing me on this thread... very nice!

Good work! :up:

:D

Knight
May 18th, 2004, 10:10 PM
bump

Yorzhik
May 18th, 2004, 10:56 PM
I think the forgiveness people are afraid. Bunch of yellow-bellied brainless can't think past their nose crack-pots that they are.

Knight
May 18th, 2004, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by Yorzhik

I think the forgiveness people are afraid. Bunch of yellow-bellied brainless can't think past their nose crack-pots that they are. :chuckle:

I know where you are going errrrrrrrrrrrr I know what you mean. :D

Yorzhik
May 18th, 2004, 11:00 PM
;)

firechyld
May 18th, 2004, 11:06 PM
You'll never be forgiven for that comment!

*staples hand to forehead*

Yorzhik
May 19th, 2004, 01:01 AM
And I'm not asking for forgiveness, either.

firechyld
May 19th, 2004, 01:03 AM
Well, in that case you can have it. You can just deal. :p

Crow
May 19th, 2004, 01:30 AM
I think that forgiveness has to be a two party effort in order to achieve the full benefit.

Certainly, we should let go of anger toward another person if it is eating away at us.

But true forgiveness is something more.

If we forgive another with no regret nor action on their part, we have taken from them an opportunity to face up to what they have done and to make ammends. They have not made things right, and may continue in their wrongful behavior toward others because they have not been made to deal with the consequences of the behavior.

I agree with BillyBob that it's hard to not forgive one who is truly sorry for his tresspasses. It would be harmful to both that person and myself.

Forgiveness does not release them from obligation to undo their act to the best of their ability. I can forgive the kid that breaks my window, but I also expect him to pay to have it repaired. Restitution not only restores that which the victim lost, but it is the way a transgressor restores himself--releasing him from obligation to the victim and helps to repair the damage to their relationship that was caused by their act.

Correct forgiveness--seeking forgiveness, forgiving, restitution, and restoration--is beneficial to both parties. Incorrect forgiveness--just blanket-stamping every transgression "forgiven"--might make the victim feel better about himself, but it does not address the problem that the offender has with behaving decently toward others, and creates a likelyhood that he will continue in his destructive actions.

firechyld
May 19th, 2004, 01:33 AM
Hrmm...

I forgive for my sake. The person who has wronged me should remedy their actions not because I'm still holding a grudge, but because they want to better themselves.

Changing for someone else isn't true change. It has to start from within.

I'd say that (to me at least) forgiveness and remorse can be mutually exclusive.

That's not to say that it always should be, of course...

Crow
May 19th, 2004, 01:45 AM
Originally posted by firechyld

Hrmm...

I forgive for my sake. The person who has wronged me should remedy their actions not because I'm still holding a grudge, but because they want to better themselves.

Changing for someone else isn't true change. It has to start from within.

I'd say that (to me at least) forgiveness and remorse can be mutually exclusive.

That's not to say that it always should be, of course...


Ideally, both parties would participate, but that's ideally, not actually.

My mother has never admitted that she was wrong to abuse her kids. I don't hold a grudge against her, but our relationship is not restored as it would have been if she had done so.

Forgiveness and seeking forgiveness benefits both parties. And seeking forgiveness is a change from within, unless, of course, it's at the insistance of one's defense attorney. :bannana:

Freak
May 19th, 2004, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Crow

I think that forgiveness has to be a two party effort in order to achieve the full benefit.

I have a close friend who was raped up in a park in Seattle. This friend harbored hate, rage, unforgiveness, bitterness towards this person (whom they did not know) for 20 years. Finally, my friend forgave, releasing their right to be angry, which liberated my friend from all the anger she had been holding unto for years. True forgiveness, in this case, wasn't two party for she didn't even know the person that raped her. She forgave and she now lives alife of true freedom.

Like Jesus said...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Crow
May 19th, 2004, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Freak

I have a close friend who was raped up in a park in Seattle. This friend harbored hate, rage, unforgiveness, bitterness towards this person (whom they did not know) for 20 years. Finally, my friend forgave, releasing their right to be angry, which liberated my friend from all the anger she had been holding unto for years. True forgiveness, in this case, wasn't two party for she didn't even know the person that raped her. She forgave and she now lives alife of true freedom.

Like Jesus said...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Freak, does the perpetrator of a sinful act receive healing and spiritual growth from forgiveness if he does not confess, repent, and make restitution of his transgression? No. In order for forgiveness to benefit both parties, both parties have to be involved.

This is the part of my post you addressed:

I think that forgiveness has to be a two party effort in order to achieve the full benefit.

And I stand by that. Unless the transgressor seeks forgiveness, only one party benefits. The transgressor does not receive any spiritual benefit.

As for what Jesus said, He was absolutely right. We have go to God through Christ in faith to obtain Grace and forgiveness for our sins.

If we approach God under the pretext that we have committed no sins and therefore do not require a Savior, then are we forgiven? Where do we go in the afterlife? Hint: :devil: That is the manner in which God forgives. We should forgive as He does.

We can forgive as in let go of our anger, but the full benefit does not occur soley on our actions.

Nineveh
May 19th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Crow,
I like how you have explained your understanding on forgiveness.

I had a question about the "anger" and "hate" side of it, is it necessary to tie forgiving and not forgiving to the emotions of "anger" and "hate"? It seems unhealthy to act soley from those emotional states...

*****
In general, to the topic:

I would like to add, asking for forgiveness isn't always easy, and can be quite painful. But after I sought the soul saving forgiveness Christ has to offer, asking a neighbor or brother for forgiveness is way easier now.

Looking at and facing the infractions we commit against others, if we have any heart at all, can be soul wrenching. Especially if that wronged party has since passed on.

I have found guilt to be just as detrimental as harbored anger and hate.

Knight
May 19th, 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Crow

I think that forgiveness has to be a two party effort in order to achieve the full benefit.

Certainly, we should let go of anger toward another person if it is eating away at us.

But true forgiveness is something more.

If we forgive another with no regret nor action on their part, we have taken from them an opportunity to face up to what they have done and to make ammends. They have not made things right, and may continue in their wrongful behavior toward others because they have not been made to deal with the consequences of the behavior.

I agree with BillyBob that it's hard to not forgive one who is truly sorry for his tresspasses. It would be harmful to both that person and myself.

Forgiveness does not release them from obligation to undo their act to the best of their ability. I can forgive the kid that breaks my window, but I also expect him to pay to have it repaired. Restitution not only restores that which the victim lost, but it is the way a transgressor restores himself--releasing him from obligation to the victim and helps to repair the damage to their relationship that was caused by their act.

Correct forgiveness--seeking forgiveness, forgiving, restitution, and restoration--is beneficial to both parties. Incorrect forgiveness--just blanket-stamping every transgression "forgiven"--might make the victim feel better about himself, but it does not address the problem that the offender has with behaving decently toward others, and creates a likelyhood that he will continue in his destructive actions. Excellent! :thumb:

Freak
May 24th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Crow

Freak, does the perpetrator of a sinful act receive healing and spiritual growth from forgiveness if he does not confess, repent, and make restitution of his transgression? No. We, however, receive, healing when we release the bitterness & malice we might hold unto though by refusing to forgive. We need to forgive for there are many times we might not have the opportunity to get face to face with the perpetrator. Wouldn't you agree?


We can forgive as in let go of our anger, but the full benefit does not occur soley on our actions. :dizzy: What if you can't get in touch with the person or don't know the person? Can we forgive them without knowing if they have repented?

Nineveh
May 24th, 2004, 08:28 PM
I don't mean to butt in, but...

Freak, you say, "We, however, receive, healing when we release the bitterness & malice we might hold unto though by refusing to forgive."

Why does it seem "bitterness", "malice", hate" and "emotional pain" need to rely on forgiveness or the withholding of forgiveness?

Bad emotions aren't a good basis for forgiving or not. Either you can give the power to let others manipulate you emotionaly, or you seek The Comforter's guidence. In the same way, those in The Body have asked Jesus.


We need to forgive for there are many times we might not have the opportunity to get face to face with the perpetrator.

That seems like a good reason for those who know they need to seek forgiveness from others as soon as they can. In essence, leaving their sacrifice and making peace before they offer their best to God. Everything we do, Freak, is a witness to Christ. When does God cover our sins? When we ask.

Freak
May 24th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh
Why does it seem "bitterness", "malice", hate" and "emotional pain" need to rely on forgiveness or the withholding of forgiveness? When someone is wronged they should respond in forgiveness and not unforgiveness. Simple.


Bad emotions aren't a good basis for forgiving or not. Sure it is. We shouldn't hold unto anger, hate, bitterness, or malice. We should release those emotions and forgive those who wronged us.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another.

Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.


Everything we do, Freak, is a witness to Christ. When does God cover our sins? When we ask. I noticed you completely ignored my question. Let's try again...
What if you can't get in touch with the person or don't know the person? Can we forgive them without knowing if they have repented? Answer this question! Please.

Nineveh
May 24th, 2004, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by Freak

When someone is wronged

Sure it is. We shouldn't hold unto anger, hate, bitterness, or malice. We should release those emotions and forgive those who wronged us.

Freak, I understand there can be hate associated with sin, that's why God doesn't want us to sin, it causes pain. But I can't think of any circumstances where emotion should be the reason for our actions.


Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another.


Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

This verse doesn't undo how forgiveness works. Do you believe all are saved?



I noticed you completely ignored my question. Let's try again...
What if you can't get in touch with the person or don't know the person? Can we forgive them without knowing if they have repented? Answer this question! Please.

No. We don't have to, nor do we have to allow the emotions to control our lives, we may shed the emotion, smart folks seek Christ at these times. The emotion and forgiveness are 2 seperate things.

I have sinned against people who had passed away before I repented. That was part of the soul crushing weight God dropped on it one night. It makes me realize I need to take action while I can to gain the forgiveness from those I can. Forgiveness is golden, you should know this as one who has humbled yourself before Christ.

I can not however take away any emotional pain I caused them. That's a really good reason not to sin against others, it hurts.

Freak
May 24th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh
This verse doesn't undo how forgiveness works. Do you believe all are saved? Let me help you...

God's Word tells us to forgive those who have wronged us. In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that.

Btw, no, not all are saved, silly girl.




No. We don't have to, nor do we have to allow the emotions to control our lives, we may shed the emotion, smart folks seek Christ at these times. The emotion and forgiveness are 2 seperate things. Is unforgiveness wrong?


I have sinned against people who had passed away before I repented. That was part of the soul crushing weight God dropped on it one night. It makes me realize I need to take action while I can to gain the forgiveness from those I can. And if you don't gain forgiveness from another human being? Then what? Can Christ still rescue? I think so.


I can not however take away any emotional pain I caused them. I serve a much more powerful God then that. I can go before God and ask Him to heal.

Nineveh
May 25th, 2004, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by Freak

Btw, no, not all are saved, silly girl.

How do those who are saved, get saved?


Is unforgiveness wrong?

No, in context (ie: unasked for)


And if you don't gain forgiveness from another human being? Then what? Can Christ still rescue? I think so.

Let's go at this one thing at a time. First the general idea of forgiveness, once we have that down, then let's get into the finer points, ok? Remember, I'm a "silly girl" so let's take it slow.

Let's also bear in mind the point I am trying to get across : emotion and forgiveness are not the same.

Freak
May 25th, 2004, 08:23 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

How do those who are saved, get saved? Let's see what Romans 10:9-10 states:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


No That is contrary to Christ-likeness. But that's a problem you need to deal with.


Let's go at this one thing at a time. First the general idea of forgiveness, once we have that down, then let's get into the finer points, ok? Remember, I'm a "silly girl" so let's take it slow. Yes, you are a silly girl. For Jesus was clear that repentance isn't always required to forgive someone.


Let's also bear in mind the point I am trying to get across : emotion and forgiveness are not the same. Forgiveness is a decision to forgive, to no longer reserving the personal right to being angry at the person whom wronged you, releasing the right you have to harbor unforgiveness--that's forgiveness...

In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that.

Nineveh
May 25th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Let's see what Romans 10:9-10 states:

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Any repentance involved in that, do you think?


That is contrary to Christ-likeness. But that's a problem you need to deal with.

Isn't that what we are talking about right now?


Yes, you are a silly girl. For Jesus was clear that repentance isn't always required to forgive someone.

Are we talking the woman in adultery or what Christ uttered on the cross, or did you have an example you wanted to share?


Forgiveness is a decision to forgive, to no longer reserving the personal right to being angry at the person whom wronged you, releasing the right you have to harbor unforgiveness--that's forgiveness...

So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?

Freak
May 25th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Any repentance involved in that, do you think? Yes. My Scriptural points stands however.


Are we talking the woman in adultery or what Christ uttered on the cross, or did you have an example you wanted to share? No. We are talking about this...

In the context of prayer...

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

And this without the requirement of repentance. Imagine that


So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor? No. The driving factor is this:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Get it?

Nineveh
May 26th, 2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Freak

Yes. My Scriptural points stands however.

So when we confess with our mouths and believe in our hearts Jesus raised from the dead, it's because we have repented.

I wonder why it has to be "confess with our mouths"? What are we confessing? And why does it have to be, "believe with our hearts" that we believe?

Please answer my question, "So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?"

Freak
May 26th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Please answer my question, "So you are a believer emotion should be the driving factor?" I said: NO!!! Why are you confused? The driving force to forgive is in the words of Jesus...



Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

Nineveh
May 26th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Alright, then we agree (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=530573#post530573), hatred and anger shouldn't be the driving force to forgive or not. Hatred and anger can be dealt with seperately from forgiveness. Thank you.

Freak
May 27th, 2004, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Nineveh

Alright, then we agree (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=530573#post530573), hatred and anger shouldn't be the driving force to forgive or not. Hatred and anger can be dealt with seperately from forgiveness. Thank you. The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.

Nineveh
May 27th, 2004, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Freak

The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus

Amen.

firechyld
May 27th, 2004, 08:46 PM
The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.

The only reason you forgive people is because Jesus told you to?

Am I the only one who finds that a little scary?

Yorzhik
May 27th, 2004, 09:16 PM
It would be scary if God didn't give us a good reason *not* to forgive if the offender didn't repent.

firechyld
May 27th, 2004, 09:42 PM
The impression that those words give me is that if Freak wasn't a Christian, he'd have no objection to being a horrible person.

While I appreciate that Christians feel that their religion makes them better people, surely one should have a certain degree of intrinsic moral fibre that isn't imposed by religious belief...

1Way
May 28th, 2004, 12:49 AM
Firechyld - I agree. But as to Freak, he is a Christian and he is a rotton egg, both. I also agree with Yorzhik, that actual forgiveness is taught upon the condition that they offending party repents. I say that forgivness can NOT happen unless the offender repents. Offenses and the amending of offenses are always a two way street, it's always takes two or more people to offend and make amends. You are only responsible for your own actions, and forgiveness is really at the essence of what it means to be saved. So imagine how damaging it is to portray that you can forgive any and everyone no matter what, even if they never repent, you just forgive them. Then the next time they think about the forgiveness of sins unto salvation, and that God is a loving God like the forgiving Christian's all talk about, then probably all will end up getting saved since forgiveness is so ubiquitous.

It is absolutely impossible to rightly forgive someone if they are not sorry for doing what they did. You can release whatever personal animosity towards them, but, you can not forgive the unrepentant. Repentance is not an optional ingrediant, it is manditory. And you can try to forgive someone even though you are not sure about their repentance, so you can offer it, but if the other person is not repentant, then there is nothing you can do about that but maybe pray for them.

Delmar
May 28th, 2004, 06:43 AM
quote:
The driving force should be the Scriptural truth presented to us by Jesus--we should forgive. However, when there is hate and anger we should let go of it and forgive the one that wronged us (and whom brought the anger and hate). Fairly simple.




Originally posted by firechyld

The only reason you forgive people is because Jesus told you to?

Am I the only one who finds that a little scary?

misquoted him a bit don't you think? To say"The driving force should be" is WAY different from saying there is no other defensable reason for.

1Way
May 28th, 2004, 09:15 AM
firechyld - Also, not only do Christians do what God tells us to do, as in, just because He tells us to do it, we also respect and promote much of the common norms and standards of right and wrong, including common sense and reason, and common social curtsies and moral notions as well. And more to the point, I strive to be Christlike, not because God tells to be so, but because I love Him and want to be like Him.

Many Christians live a moral and upright life prior to becoming a Christian, they opposed crime and gross immorality, they were a helpful and productive part of society, they even helped the little old lady across the street and made occasional financial contributions to local charities where it seems that they are really making an important difference. There are universally accepted rights and wrongs, and to a very large degree, unsaved people many times tend to honor and respect these unwritten standards. And a person can do that even after they become saved, so it need not always be that Christians act because they were told to act a certain way.

There is an apparently universal moral sentiment about fairness. If someone serves to swindle you, or betray your trust in order to rob you of what is yours, then almost without any exception, man reacts the same, they object on the grounds of fairness, that it is unfair to rob and swindle. Not convinced, ask any skeptic to go to work for a company that agrees with you to pay you so much per hour, and then when the time comes for payment, they swindle you out of your paycheck with some bogus reasoning that is totally unfair. What if you went to a doctor to have a legitimate operation, and instead of removing a cyst, they leave it in there and take out a kidney and say 70% of your small intestines to sell them in a black market organ theft ring. That would be wrong and it would not take a Christian to rightly convict such terrible behavior as being even criminal.

You might be tempted to call that animal instinct, the instinct for survival, and to some extent I agree, it is natural for beings to want to serve themselves with that which preserves their life and happiness, but there is no reasonable explanation for why beings seem preprogrammed with life protecting standards including moral standards of right and wrong. If we are all a product of something other than intelligent design, then the fact that life is surrounded with logically sound principles and standards and norms, is beyond the scope of coincidence. The incredible order and logical consistency in design is one of the strongest indicators for intelligence being behind all of life. In fact, when you simply consider microbiology, recent times have made significant end roads that point all the more strongly for intelligent design verses origins without intelligent design.

DNA is one of the coolest studies in biology, and at the cellular level, it is a science that is fabulously infused with pre-determined intelligent design. I mean think of it for a split second. A human being, even a partially formed baby in the mother's womb is a system that is far more complex than a Boeing 747, yet that little baby was ultimately formed from one single cell we call an egg from the mother, and one single sperm cell from the father, and then all you have to do is have proper implantation in the womb, add warmth and nutrients and in time, out comes a human being! Think of it. From a tiny tiny speck, on that single DNA strand, is the genetic blueprint of you. You went from being a microscopic dot with no form or comely design, almost pure information with some wonderful building blocks, and then that tiny thing self replicated into you. The complexity and order and design involved is simply staggering. And don't forget, it is not enough to know what is involved in order to make you, you must also execute every single instruction in the right order and have every function carried out correctly before the next function can proceed, it is an interdependent system with so many variables that it is way way waaaaay hideously complex. Intelligent design is the only reasonable response.

There simply is no reasonable view that says that humanity is any other product than from an intelligent design. God says that even if you do not have the law of God, like you never read nor heard about the bible for example, and yet you naturally do the things in the law, it becomes a law unto yourself showing itself as written on your heart. See God has created us with a profound understanding about Himself and His eternal attributes which include, right and wrong (i.e. fairness, rational sense, etc) even though most reject God in subversive unrighteousness. So even unsaved people have a really good idea how we should treat one another because we are created after the image of God on purpose, so we do not necessarily need the bible to teach us to not lie and steal, everyone has a God and good and bad awareness inside them, and it is always good to do good, and it is always bad to do evil.

If you get a chance, a must see video is "Unlocking the Mystery of Life", produced by Illustra media, "the scientific case for intelligent design". You can get it at Bob Enyart's website KGOV dot com, or any number of places. But it is HIGHLY recommended for the pure edutainment of it all. They do an outstanding job of explaining highly technical aspects of life, in common man's terms, and they show pictures too, smile, they use state of the art animations and take us into the inner workings of the cell to help us all visualize what is actually going on, and how excitingly intelligent the foundation of life really is at the cellular level. Of special note is a huge issue called, irreducible complexity. See, in any system that is fundamentally formed from chance or random events, you must get more and more simple, so that the not smart design principle, chance, can actually happen. But the exact opposite is what actually happens. At the most foundational and microscopic levels, biological systems are ridiculously complex, so much so that intelligent design is virtually demanded in order to even conceive how life began and continues. Useful function and the order of design just demolish the tierd notions of unintelligent design. I really and truely hope you get that video, one time it was on PBS and it is a top notch presentation, so it MIGHT be in local libraries, not sure. A star in this presentation is Michael Behe who is a best selling author and theoretician against Darwinian evolution. I can give you an example of irreducable complexity in just a few scant sentances if you would like a taste of the brunt of this hugely important issue. But I have written so much already. I hope this helps. :D

Delmar
May 28th, 2004, 05:24 PM
View Video Clip (Windows Media Require

opps!

1Way
May 28th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Thanks for the tip Delmar, I went to http://www.illustramedia.com and downloaded a video clip for that movie, and it is pretty cool. The speaker on the video clip used to be a leading proponent of chemical evolution but after more and more evidence was in about the incredible complexity of even the most basic of living cells (or cell organisms), he became persuaded that evolution was wrong, and that intelligent design was right.

Of special note, the process illustrated of forming a protein was largely obscured so that it did not easily make sense what was being produced. If you look carefully, you can barely see that there is a string of molecules being formed immediately below the assembly line. Unfortunately that part of the video got munched for downsizing for the internet but the video has it all well illustrated. It's a .rm file so most computers should have a player to play it. :)

Yorzhik
May 31st, 2004, 12:49 AM
I'm very glad Freak is gone. It was counter-productive to the discussion.

1Way
May 31st, 2004, 10:34 AM
Yorzhik, I'm starting to get out more, I've visited two churches recently in an attempt at ministering the truth to others and some of that is exciting, but it is going really slow. If you want, we can get together for lunch or go to some church together sometime, I'm just afraid that TT will put our opportunity for meeting a long way off.

And I think that meeting with people will help me deal more responsibly with domestic concerns, which I am struggling with right now. I would prefer Sunday School over the sermon, or going to a small group meeting, you know, something where our views can become shared to some extent. Let me know if or when something like this will work, or maybe we can watch a TT event too, I just do not know about when they happen and all that. Also, there are scant few believers that I know of who are of like-minded faith in my area. We might want to get together with them too.

If you have not seen the video, unlocking the mystery of life, it would also be a great occasion to get together, it is a very exciting and thought provoking video, it's like true science is back again!

Yorzhik
May 31st, 2004, 01:28 PM
Cool. Let's get together at some church on Sunday morning. This next Sunday could be okay, but I'll have to check with the person who knows what I'm doing ;)

You are about 30 minutes from N. South Bend? If so, then I am too, and there are a number of good churches there (relatively good churches, anyway).

I think it's a little funny that you have been going to churchs to get the truth out... when I tell people my ministry is in the church, they look at me strange - as if ministries should come *from* the church, not go *into* them :D

1Way
May 31st, 2004, 02:53 PM
LOL. That will work. Man, I really pity some closed view non-dispensationalist Sunday school teacher, they will have their hands full w/you and me in the same class. :D Maybe I'll have to buy a lip guard, a nice looking one, so that I wont get a swollen lip from constantly biting it. I have a TOL T shirt you know. It's a classic. And a TOL hat too. :D But I'm cool, I have a pocket PC and so I have ready access to three translations (NKJV, KJV, NAS) and complete electronic word and phrase searching. Yorzhik, this is sort of cracking me up. Maybe we should just sit in with the pasture's class and weed out the undesirable element. Oh boy. LOL

Maybe we should walk in together, like in formation with our bibles out slightly in front of us, like holy crosses setting the evil spirits at bay. Sorry, but I have to work hard at being good, ,,, I mean silent in such situations. I'm going to half to do like extra bible reading this week, you can never get enough in times of trial and tribulation.

1Way
May 31st, 2004, 03:12 PM
I know, maybe I'll just try counting the Christian clichés, and maybe you count the false doctrines, that'll probably keep us preoccupied instead of looking like we're about ready to :cry: or :shocked: or :sozo2: or :bang:. LOL You know, I'm a bad actor, maybe you don't need these distractions, but I usually do. If you let me have an opening, I'm in there, making a stand. :bannana: You seem more at peace with the universe :Nineveh: , you will probably :bow: rub off :shut: well on me. Looking forward to it. :thumb:

Delmar
May 31st, 2004, 04:10 PM
Don't forget to take the artical pack with you!

Delmar
May 31st, 2004, 04:10 PM
see if you can get yourselves kicked out right away!

1Way
May 31st, 2004, 06:52 PM
LOL :thumb: I think I have an article pack around here somewhere. :D

Yorzhik - Our friend DearDelmar is one of a few outstanding rebels in my neck of the woods. In fact, :) wonder woman and superman got hooked up over "not being nicer than God" stuff! No joke, they eventually got married after surviving an initial screen test of biblical scrutiny over "not being nicer than God"! Talk about an interesting testimony, those two.

Delmar
May 31st, 2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

LOL :thumb: I think I have an article pack around here somewhere. :D

Yorzhik - Our friend DearDelmar is one of a few outstanding rebels in my neck of the woods. In fact, :) wonder woman and superman got hooked up over "not being nicer than God" stuff! No joke, they eventually got married after surviving an initial screen test of biblical scrutiny over "not being nicer than God"! Talk about an interesting testimony, those two. Ah you remember my story... and you tell it so well!

1Way
May 31st, 2004, 07:25 PM
The chords of likeminded faith and appreciation runs deep, you guys are the best.

We'll have to visit you folks too, that way we can offset so much anti-like-mindedness that we should get from the saints at large. LOL

Yorzhik
May 31st, 2004, 11:09 PM
I might have some obligations to uphold, but I'm getting juiced about this coming Sunday. I'll email you as the day approaches.

So what denomination to you prefer? I like Church of God or Baptist. They seem to have enough biblical knowledge to at least stay in the conversation.