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wickwoman
May 4th, 2004, 07:20 AM
You’ve heard the saying: “it’s all good.” There are things that happen to us and we judge them constantly as good or bad. The first key: they do not happen TO us, they just happen. The second key: they are neither good nor bad, they just are.

This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

It’s about living without resistance to what comes along, surrendering to our lives with appreciation for things as they are, appreciating every moment as part of a the greater whole that is our life.

I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God.

Poly
May 4th, 2004, 07:41 AM
Peace, love and joy, man! :vomit:

Wickwoman, you might want to lay off the mushrooms.

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 08:07 AM
You da bomb, girl!

If a christian mocks you for love, peace and joy, rejoice in that.

The thing that I learned when studying Buddhism is that those who you see as your enemy actually make you learn the most - force you to be patient, to return evil with kindness, to be humble, to let go of anger. Instead of carrying burdens, I was thankful for another challenge and opportunity to grow.

Thanks for the cool post.

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 08:11 AM
It's all, like, good wicky! Like, Peace out dude, I think i'm gonna, like, fall over from that overdose, dude! But Listen to this dude, it's like all profound, dude... :rolleyes:

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by wickwoman

You’ve heard the saying: “it’s all good.” There are things that happen to us and we judge them constantly as good or bad. The first key: they do not happen TO us, they just happen. The second key: they are neither good nor bad, they just are.

This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

It’s about living without resistance to what comes along, surrendering to our lives with appreciation for things as they are, appreciating every moment as part of a the greater whole that is our life.

I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God.

Wickwoman, so it seems to me, that whatever happens, you just go alone with it. Am I correct?

Well, I'm not going to let homo's into my house. I'm not about to let homo's talk to my siblings. I'm not about to let a druggie offer them drugs, and I'm not about to support putting them in a corrupt school.

I am going to resist, and I'm going to fight really hard to keep my siblings away from is evil!

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 08:17 AM
Why are christians such unhappy, angry people?

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 08:20 AM
It's not really true it's just when we're talking about Current Events and stuff, the worlds evil and we don't like it! :rolleyes:

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Why are christians such unhappy, angry people?

I'm angry because there shouldn't be such thing as homo's... but there is. I'm angry because there shouldn't be such thing as sexual intercourse out of marriage... but there is. God abhors these sins, and I abhor them also.

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 08:38 AM
I didn't realize that you were God.
Unhappy and angry God.

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

I didn't realize that you were God.
Unhappy and angry God.

Please explain where you got the idea that I was God?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 08:44 AM
Are you angry at yourself?
You are a sinner, too, you know.

PureX
May 4th, 2004, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by wickwoman

You’ve heard the saying: “it’s all good.” There are things that happen to us and we judge them constantly as good or bad. The first key: they do not happen TO us, they just happen. The second key: they are neither good nor bad, they just are.

This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

It’s about living without resistance to what comes along, surrendering to our lives with appreciation for things as they are, appreciating every moment as part of a the greater whole that is our life.

I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God. Excellent post! Thanks!

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Are you angry at yourself?
You are a sinner, too, you know.

No... I'm not angry at myself... should I be?

Yes, I know I'm a sinner. And I'm trying to put away by sinnful ways, and take after Jesus.

Balder
May 4th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Just don't tell the cranky old Zen masters that it's all Buddha. Whenever they see the Buddha on the road, they want to kill him. If everything is Buddha, we'd have quite a mess...




Just kiddin', wick!

Thanks for shedding a little radiance in here!



Peace out the revolution,

Balder

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

No... I'm not angry at myself... should I be?

Yes, I know I'm a sinner. And I'm trying to put away by sinnful ways, and take after Jesus.

I see.
So you are angry at OTHER sinners.
But are more forgiving of yourself.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 09:17 AM
Could someone please start a forum at www.ifitfeelsgooddoit.com for these dim wits?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 09:26 AM
You know, the whole idea of "if it feels good, do it" makes a lot of sense.

For example, I love smoking. I like the way it feels. But does it "feel good"? No. Whenever I smoke, I think about the fact that what stays on filter is a lot like what stays on my lungs. I have a harder time breathing the more I do it. And the whole time, I think, I should really stop this.

So, following the "feels good" formula, I know that I need to stop, because it doesn't feel good internally.

If right and wrong are written on your heart, it won't feel good.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Because you are lord of over beanieboy.

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Are you angry at yourself?
You are a sinner, too, you know.

Actually when your a Christian God blots out your sins, and covers it with "CHRISTIAN" so even if you sin, youre no longer a "Sinner".

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Actually when your a Christian God blots out your sins, and covers it with "CHRISTIAN" so even if you sin, youre no longer a "Sinner".

There is a parable about a man that owed a huge debt.
He was forgiven the debt, and went on his way.
He then came to another man who owed him a small debt. He refused to forgive the debt.
When the first man found this out, he said, "I forgave you a large debt, and you cannot forgive the small debt in another. So because you have not forgiven the small debt, I will not forgive your large debt."

What does that mean, exactly?

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

I see.
So you are angry at OTHER sinners.
But are more forgiving of yourself.

Beanieboy, I don't understand how you get these idea's.

Although, yes, I am NOW angry at myself. I'm angry because I always thought debating was usless, and now I'm not prepared to debate with you. I'm angry because I never used to think I had to work hard to be more like Jesus. And now all I have to defend myself is what I think is in the Bible.

But that doesn't mean that I don't believe. I do believe homo's should be put to death. Shouldn't we try to be more like God and do what He would do?

Poly
May 4th, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

For example, I love smoking. I like the way it feels.
Good thing, since you'll be experiencing your fair share of it. :devil:

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Beanieboy, I don't understand how you get these idea's.

Although, yes, I am NOW angry at myself. I'm angry because I always thought debating was usless, and now I'm not prepared to debate with you. I'm angry because I never used to think I had to work hard to be more like Jesus. And now all I have to defend myself is what I think is in the Bible.

But that doesn't mean that I don't believe. I do believe homo's should be put to death. Shouldn't we try to be more like God and do what He would do?

God killed entire cities.
Shouldn't you be out killing heathens, to be more like God?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Poly

Good thing, since you'll be experiencing your fair share of it. :devil:

Sweetie, how many times do I have to say this?
We aren't on the paths to the same place.

I would suggest you take out your map.
I think you made a wrong turn at Albaquerque

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid
Although, yes, I am NOW angry at myself. I'm angry because I always thought debating was usless, and now I'm not prepared to debate with you. I'm angry because I never used to think I had to work hard to be more like Jesus. And now all I have to defend myself is what I think is in the Bible.

But that doesn't mean that I don't believe. I do believe homo's should be put to death. Shouldn't we try to be more like God and do what He would do?

Btw, don't be angry because now you have to think, and support your ideas, or question what you are taught.
If anything, it will make you stronger in your beliefs.
It will make you understand better.
Ask God to guide you.

And remember that the Jewish scholars always debated the Torah and writings. We are given a mind to reason and understand. You are shedding your childish ways. Welcome to adulthood.:)

Should we try to be more like God?
Definitely.

:thumb:

What that means, well, that's what you have to learn.
Good luck.

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

God killed entire cities.
Shouldn't you be out killing heathens, to be more like God?

It may be for the same reason you aren't going out and killing heathens. But I think I'm not out killing heathen for a different reason.

BChristianK
May 4th, 2004, 11:04 AM
Wickwoman said:


You’ve heard the saying: “it’s all good.” There are things that happen to us and we judge them constantly as good or bad. The first key: they do not happen TO us, they just happen. The second key: they are neither good nor bad, they just are.

It depends a great deal as to what you mean exactly by “they.” You said that they are those things that happen that we judge as either good or bad.

Now it is true that some things happen that are neither good nor bad. A plane arrives late, that ‘s bad for the guy on the plane who needs to get to a meeting and will now be late to that meeting. It is good for the guy who left a meeting late and, were it not for the delay of the plane, would not be able to get back home to his family.

So there are some things that are neither good or bad, they just are.

However, there are also some things that I think we can accurately identify as bad.

The senseless beating of a homosexual to death by some very angry students outside of Laramie Wyoming is not, in my opinion, just somethin’ that happened.

It can be said rightly that this was bad, and that it happened to that young man.

Would you disagree?
Do you see how that is an important qualification to your statement?

Now you said:


This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

Ah, here again are elements I can agree with. To start with the agreement, there is the story of Joseph, who was sold into slavery, made the scapegoat of a setup, thrown into prison, came out of prison to become the second most powerful man in the largest and most powerful kingdom on the earth at that time, and finally brought drought relief to his father and his brothers who had sold him into slavery.

His statement when he finally confronted his brother was, "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive.

It is true that all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. And in many ways the things we judge ignorantly as bad are really seminal moments in our lives shaping us to be the people God intends for us to be.


I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God.
I am assuming by Buddha you mean “teaching.” That it is all “teaching.”
For, if I am correct, that is what the word "buddha" means. I don’t think that “the Buddha” would claim that everthing was him. But I know that Balder can inform us better here. So I agree that, to a great degree, everything is teaching.
God’s purposes will not be thwarted. His redemptive plan will be realized regardless of those who turn against him. So I also, don’t pay much attention to doomsday messages. In fact, I don’t really see a whole lot of doomsday messages in the word. I see apocalypse, which really means revealing or uncovering. I do see times of tribulation but those are all temporary and passing and the end of tribulation is the beginning of the goal of redemption.

But I am alarmed at sin, namely my own. I have enough trouble being alarmed at my own sin to pay an inordinant amount of attention to anyone elses. I see that the track that my sin would have me follow is the same track that the world, with its sin, is on, and the end is destruction, for sin is destined to be destroyed. The only hope is not to “live without resistance” to it, but to battle against it.

Were those students to battle against their own hatred, perhaps a young man would still be alive….

Grace and Peace

P.S. Haven’t seen you in awhile, hope everything was ok..

Duder
May 4th, 2004, 11:35 AM
You’ve heard the saying: “it’s all good.” There are things that happen to us and we judge them constantly as good or bad. The first key: they do not happen TO us, they just happen. The second key: they are neither good nor bad, they just are.

This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

It’s about living without resistance to what comes along, surrendering to our lives with appreciation for things as they are, appreciating every moment as part of a the greater whole that is our life.

I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God.

Wickwoman -

I would like to introduce you to a writer named Alan Watts (1923 - 1973). Watts was highly educated in religion, philosophy and the arts, and his passion was to explain as best he could the insights of the east in terms that the western mind could grasp. He did this in a very warm, conversational and sometimes funny style, and I think you would take great pleasure in reading The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are to start.

Alan Watts had a lot to say about your insight that "it's all good". Ultimately, he would have agreed with you. But while a world divided into good and bad is an illusory world, it is still an important world. It's the one we find ourselves in, and people of action who love life will have to deal with the problem of evil - it won't just "meditate away".

God, Brahman or the Ultimate Self put evil here to give us something to resist! With evil present, "the game is afoot". Now there are stakes that make life interesting. And that, according to Watt's and his interpretation of eastern wisdom, is the point of life - for both you and the Ultimate Self to have interesting experiences.

When an enlightened person discovers that evil is but one pole of an illusory continuum, he loses the absurd belief that evil must be eradicated. Of course evil must be resisted, but to wipe it out is not only impossible, it would also end the game!

It is good for an enlightened person to fight injustice, but he does so with a sly wink at his enemy - a wink that says "I see the Buddha hiding in you, you old rascal!"

Buddhism is about the middle way. It does not want to destroy evil by "meditating it away" - nor does it want to destroy evil by taking an ultimately serious stand against it. It would have us fight evil AS A GAME. The point is, it is NOT serious. It is PLAY, this whole Maya business - and when you know it is play, then you become a more effective player.


Originally posted by Balder:
Just don't tell the cranky old Zen masters that it's all Buddha. Whenever they see the Buddha on the road, they want to kill him. If everything is Buddha, we'd have quite a mess...

Just kiddin', wick!

Thanks for shedding a little radiance in here!

Peace out the revolution,

Balder

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways, eh?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

It may be for the same reason you aren't going out and killing heathens. But I think I'm not out killing heathen for a different reason.

But couldn't one argue:
God killed whole villages.
I'm going to go kill whole villages of heathens, because I want to be like God?

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

But couldn't one argue:
God killed whole villages.
I'm going to go kill whole villages of heathens, because I want to be like God?

:kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak: :kookoo: :freak:

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 11:51 AM
According to Buddhism, one is to see Buddha in everyone.
But that isn't different than what Christ taught. He said to turn the other cheek, and return evil with kindness, to love and bless your enemies.

Why? Because God loves everyone. God loved us when we were still sinners, and we need to show that love to one another. If you tell someone, "You are going to hell! Have a nice life!" you have given them no hope, no out, just condemnation.

It's not how Christ was. Christ loved the Prostitute, and said nothing unkind to her. He loved the adultress, and said nothing unkind to her. He saw the goodness in them. Sure, we all do bad things, but deep down, we all possess the ability to be good.

Paul killed Christians, and look at him.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 11:53 AM
You are deaf, dumb and blind to the ways of God.

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

There is a parable about a man that owed a huge debt.
He was forgiven the debt, and went on his way.
He then came to another man who owed him a small debt. He refused to forgive the debt.
When the first man found this out, he said, "I forgave you a large debt, and you cannot forgive the small debt in another. So because you have not forgiven the small debt, I will not forgive your large debt."

What does that mean, exactly?

Under the Kingdom Plan you had to forgive to be forgiven. Under the Body of Christ you forgive BECAUSE HE has forgiven your, but do not forgive those who have not repented (like you). BTW: There are no drugs or Ciggs in hell, :devil:

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 12:00 PM
It's all, like, good wicky! Like, Peace out dude, I think i'm gonna, like, fall over from that overdose, dude! But, like, Listen to this dude, it's like all profound, dude, It's all, like, Buhda, dude... :rolleyes:

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

You are deaf, dumb and blind ...
kid sure plays a mean pinball....

To your God, yes.
Look what it's done to you.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy
Look what it's done to you.

Set me FREE!

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

kid sure plays a mean pinball....

To your God, yes.
Look what it's done to you.

Actually I play Astroids :chuckle:

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Under the Kingdom Plan you had to forgive to be forgiven. Under the Body of Christ you forgive BECAUSE HE has forgiven your, but do not forgive those who have not repented (like you). BTW: There are no drugs or Ciggs in hell, :devil:

And there are cigs and drugs in heaven?
I'm not sure why you even bring that up.

So, according to your belief, the point Jesus was making is that you only have to forgive if someone is sorry.
Interesting.

So, Jesus cried out, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," and God said back, "Fat chance. It isn't like they are even sorry."

servent101
May 4th, 2004, 12:21 PM
Wickwoman
This is a Buddhist way of thinking about the things that arise that we would judge as good or bad: “it’s all Buddha.” For all that happens is part of the whole. The good parts of us, the bad parts of us, are all part of our essence. Without the experiences that shape us – good and bad – we would not be the people we are today. Without the experiences that will come along today and tomorrow, we would not be the people we are to be in the future.

It’s about living without resistance to what comes along, surrendering to our lives with appreciation for things as they are, appreciating every moment as part of a the greater whole that is our life.

I hear the doomsday messages of some religions today and think to myself lately, “it’s all Buddha.” I am not alarmed at the growth of “sin.” When I see the world, I see the evolution of humanity towards an ever higher awareness of the earth, ourselves, and of God.

People who teach this - then go and do remarkable things to call people to become more companionate, charitable, peaceful - but a lot of people read these things then use it as an excuse to watch the soap operas on TV, let their neighbor live in hell, drive by people in need - to escape reality and live in their own little world, void of compassion for anyone - seeking their own happiness, and failing miserably at that.

People do learn from their own mistakes, and people do get hurt when they are not watching out for the evil in the world - to take steps to prevent bad things from happening to them. When we have an attitude of All is Buddha - if it increases our ability to do good - then that is what it is meant for - so we can do more, accomplish more to better the human race, though this is not the case for people who take an individual approach to the writings - without guidance it is easy to make mistakes.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 12:26 PM
Buddhists are never to live passively.
You are to live actively, and giving freely.

I was reading this interesting book where the guy was talking about giving. A friend was over, and asked if he could have some juice, after opening the fridge. The man thought, if i say yes, I will have less juice for me. And then he thought, it's just juice. I can walk across the street and buy more.

It's like that. We think of it as good or bad. If you drink my juice, it is good for you, and bad for me. It should just be an offer with no judgement attached.

It's just juice, not a gallon of your blood.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Buddhists are never to live passively.
You are to live actively, and giving freely.

I was reading this interesting book where the guy was talking about giving. A friend was over, and asked if he could have some juice, after opening the fridge. The man thought, if i say yes, I will have less juice for me. And then he thought, it's just juice. I can walk across the street and buy more.

It's like that. We think of it as good or bad. If you drink my juice, it is good for you, and bad for me. It should just be an offer with no judgement attached.

It's just juice, not a gallon of your blood.

Ya know....you should start your own religion! Beanieism, or Beanites, or Cliches-a-Plenty.

Christine
May 4th, 2004, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

According to Buddhism, one is to see Buddha in everyone.
But that isn't different than what Christ taught. He said to turn the other cheek, and return evil with kindness, to love and bless your enemies.
"Turn the other cheek" was directed at a different dispensation.




It's not how Christ was. Christ loved the Prostitute, and said nothing unkind to her. He loved the adultress, and said nothing unkind to her. He saw the goodness in them. Sure, we all do bad things, but deep down, we all possess the ability to be good.
Unlike you, he told them to repent of their sins.


Paul killed Christians, and look at him.
He repented. He didn't continuing persecuting believers upon being saved.

wickwoman
May 4th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Thanks Beanieboy, Balder and Purex and anyone else I missed, for your kind comments.

To everyone else: There is no necessity to judge which bad events will turn out good in the end and which will not. For that matter, you, as a human being, do not have the foresight to do so. Example: Jesus’ crucifixion looked like a terrible event to the human beings who were there. And there were probably some followers who did not see him in his resurrected state (if this actually happened). They could have gone on and on about how terrible it was that he was crucified, however, they were incapable of knowing what the future held and how an entire religion that lasted for thousands of years would be founded on this person Jesus Christ.

As for those with bad intentions who commit what appears to be evil, they will receive their reward. However, this does not preclude the fact that all will work together for good. And, by no means, does the “it’s all Buddha” philosophy encourage wrong acts. However, it points to the truth of the matter: “all things work together for good.” Just because you do not see the end result does not mean that the end will not be good.

And how could anyone who acknowledges that even some things that look terrible on the surface do turn out good in the end, protest that there are other things that absolutely will not? How can a human being truly know the difference? Unless you have the ability to look into the future to the end of time, then you cannot predict that ALL things will not work together for good.

This is not condoning “evil.” It is giving up resistance to the whole of existence or the Tao, doing what you can to change your own world, and trusting the universe to handle the rest.

BChristianK
May 4th, 2004, 01:55 PM
Wickwoman


There is no necessity to judge which bad events will turn out good in the end and which will not. For that matter, you, as a human being, do not have the foresight to do so.

Agreed, but does that make such things good in and of themselves? You mentioned the crucifixion. Was that a good thing to do to someone? Should Pilate and the Sanhedrin be commended for this action because it all turned out good in the end?

I agree that some bad things lead to the good, but that doesn’t make the bad thing good.

Some good things came out of the murder of Matthew Shepherd, a lot of dialog was sparked about hate crimes, but that doesn’t make the students who killed Matthew shepherd commendable or innocent of guilt.

We appear to agree in your next statement.


As for those with bad intentions who commit what appears to be evil, they will receive their reward. However, this does not preclude the fact that all will work together for good.

So we are about 85% on the same page, where I disagree with you is in the next statement.



And how could anyone who acknowledges that even some things that look terrible on the surface do turn out good in the end, protest that there are other things that absolutely will not? How can a human being truly know the difference? Unless you have the ability to look into the future to the end of time, then you cannot predict that ALL things will not work together for good.

This will probably sound nitpicky but I think it is an important nitpick. Some things, are truly wrong, not just wrong on the surface. Those things can still be used toward an end of the ultimate good, but they are still wrong.

Now you are right that as human being we cannot look to into the eschaton and know for certain which things happened for the ultimate good and which did not, but we can still look and see things like the brutal rape, enslavement and murder of women in Sudan as evil and wrong.

Now you finally say:



This is not condoning “evil.” It is giving up resistance to the whole of existence or the Tao, doing what you can to change your own world, and trusting the universe to handle the rest.

the concept of trusting the universe is one that I have always found a little strange. It is a bit off topic, but as I consider the universe to be the sum of all things in the cosmos, I don’t place much trust in it as an entity with a collective consciousness.

My toilet bowl, my toothbrush and my dirty socks are all a part of the universe, and I don’t place a lot of trust in the vast accumulations of toilet bowls, toothbrushes and dirty socks, along with everything else in universe, to work things out.

I’d rather put my trust in a God Who’s composition is totally devoid of toilet bowls and dirty socks.

Perhaps I will start a thread on the alleged sovereignty of the universe.

:D

Grace and Peace

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Well, I'm not going to let homo's into my house. I'm not about to let homo's talk to my siblings. I'm not about to let a druggie offer them drugs, and I'm not about to support putting them in a corrupt school.



Do you also forbid your kids to interact with people who are gluttons, ShadowMaid?

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Why are christians such unhappy, angry people?

Because we need to protect our "truth" and if it takes bashing you, and your beliefs, then so be it.

*sarcasm mode off*

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

I'm angry because there shouldn't be such thing as homo's... but there is. I'm angry because there shouldn't be such thing as sexual intercourse out of marriage... but there is. God abhors these sins, and I abhor them also.

Should there be people who love to eat too much?

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Actually when your a Christian God blots out your sins, and covers it with "CHRISTIAN" so even if you sin, youre no longer a "Sinner".

So it's ok to be gay who is Christian, and not ok to be gay who is non-Christian?

It's ok to be glutton who is Christian, and not ok to be glutton who is non-Christian?

Christine
May 4th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Do you also forbid your kids to interact with people who are gluttons, ShadowMaid?
I'm not ShadowMiad, but allow me to express my opinion. :) Gluttony is, of course a sin, but it is far worse than sodomy. Why? Gluttons only hurt themselves, but sodomites often molest children and hurt others. So, my answer would be, yes, I would allow my children to interact with gluttons.

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Christine
He repented. He didn't continuing persecuting believers upon being saved.

So, if I kill 100 people, then stop, I am no longer a murderer?

Interesting.

Christine
May 4th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

So, if I kill 100 people, then stop, I am no longer a murderer?

Interesting.
I did not say that. If someone murdered 100 people, upon salvation, God would help them to stop murdering. However, they would still have to answer to the leagal authorities for their crimes and face the penalty.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

So, if I kill 100 people, then stop, I am no longer a murderer?

Interesting.

Remove your head from your posterior.

If you kill 100 people then stop you are still a murder and will spend the rest of your life in prison (or, better yet, suffer the death penalty).

If you kill 100 people then stop and receive Jesus Christ you are a redeemed murder and will spend the rest of your life in prison (or, better yet, suffer the death penalty) but you will also go to heaven.

On Fire
May 4th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Christine

I did not say that. If someone murdered 100 people, upon salvation, God would help them to stop murdering. However, they would still have to answer to the leagal authorities for their crimes and face the penalty.

Exactly.

Poly
May 4th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

So, if I kill 100 people, then stop, I am no longer a murderer?


Kill? I doubt you can even hit. I'll bet you can "thlap thomebody thilly though".

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by wickwoman
As for those with bad intentions who commit what appears to be evil, they will receive their reward.

I agree.
My human behavior often wants to get revenge. This place is like a Petri dish that just makes you want to return evil with evil.

But really, it helps me see what true ugliness is, and know that I don't want to be like that, especially don't like it when I see it displayed in myself.

But it teaches me kindness, not out of example, but out of being forced into it.
It teaches me that evil returns evil and continues an endless chain, but kindness breaks the evil.

And I believe that being angry, being sad enough to lash out at other people and claim that you are being loving, is, in itself, its own punishment. It separates you from others, and so, from God.

It's just hard to keep remembering that. Thanks for the string around the finger.:)

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Christine

I did not say that. If someone murdered 100 people, upon salvation, God would help them to stop murdering. However, they would still have to answer to the leagal authorities for their crimes and face the penalty.

Unlike Paul....

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

I do believe homo's should be put to death. Shouldn't we try to be more like God and do what He would do?

I do believe that rebellious children who kick their parents should be put to death (Ex 21:15)

I do believe that anyone who does any work in day of Sabbath, should be put to death (Ex 31:14)

I do believe that anyone who ever drinks blood, should be put to death (Lv 17:14)

I do believe that anyone who sleeps with his wife during menstruation should be put to death (Lv 18:19,29; 20:18)

I do believe that anyone who is commiting adultery should be put to death (Lv 20:10)

I do believe that anyone who mocks God's name (whatever in home, or in public, in TV, in Radio, in Internet, etc) should be put to death (Lv 24:16)

I hope, ShadowMaid, that you believe the same.


P.S. I also believe what is written in Rm 6:23 that everyone who sins is worthy of death. Even YOU and ME.

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Good thing, since you'll be experiencing your fair share of it. :devil:

As does Poly one day before God's judgement seat.

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

And there are cigs and drugs in heaven?
I'm not sure why you even bring that up.

So, according to your belief, the point Jesus was making is that you only have to forgive if someone is sorry.
Interesting.

So, Jesus cried out, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," and God said back, "Fat chance. It isn't like they are even sorry."

Anyone going to take this one?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

As does Poly one day before God's judgement seat.

Before. I think she believes she will be on the judgement throne.
"Move over, pops. Let me show you how it's done.
You - Off with your head, bwah hah hah"

(Shiver)

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by Christine

I'm not ShadowMiad, but allow me to express my opinion. :) Gluttony is, of course a sin, but it is far worse than sodomy. Why? Gluttons only hurt themselves, but sodomites often molest children and hurt others. So, my answer would be, yes, I would allow my children to interact with gluttons.

Do you have any facts, or links to give us that gays often molest children? And that they do it more often than heterosexualists?

I got news for you: gluttons DO hurt others. They invite you and tempt you with lot of food in their table and make you eat too much. So i see no difference between glutton and homo.

Actually i see gluttons doing lot more damage to their and other peoples health what is uncompareable to what homos do. Actually i'm yet to hear from you any idea why being gay is sin besides of being sin back in times where being fertile was all that mattered.

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Besides, if the body is a temple, blimping it out with fat seems to be a desecration of the temple.

Am I wrong?

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Sometimes, TOL reminds me of Seven, the guy that uses the Seven Deadly Sins that people commit and force them to kill themselves.
And he can do it, because he is above them, sinless.

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Besides, if the body is a temple, blimping it out with fat seems to be a desecration of the temple.

Am I wrong?

If overeating kills (even slowly as do heavy drinking, drugs, smoking, and lot of cafee) your body, then it's sinning against your body as Temple of God, yes.

It's sometimes interesting that Christians bash some certain things (like here in Estonia almost any Baptist bashes smoking), while they actually commit other destructive sins. With few exceptions drinking too much coffee will rise your blood-pressure eventually nearing the day when you get heart attack, or die by some other way because of high blood-pressure. Eating too much will generally:

1) make your body more vulnerable for sicknesses aka nearing the day when you die;

2) make your brain working slower. That's why eating less, or fasting regularly makes your thoughts more clear;

3) will give bad role-model for other people and for your kids. It encourages them to see it as normal thing to do until they get some sickness due to overweight and then think that they are victims of fate, instead of seeing that it was their sin what brought the sickness.

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Sometimes, TOL reminds me of Seven, the guy that uses the Seven Deadly Sins that people commit and force them to kill themselves.
And he can do it, because he is above them, sinless.

Very true. Or he/she might even know that he also does sin, but he hids himself behind the grace of God (i'm saved even if i do sin, but you are sinner and you go to hell for your sins). Or he/she might have good autosuggestion that his sin is almost nothing compared with yours, because you are - AN HOMO similar to child-molesters and murderers! :chuckle:

That's why (althought i dont agree with everything he says) i start to believe more and more that Smaller actually got very deep point. As did Paul in his letter of Romans.

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that rebellious children who kick their parents should be put to death (Ex 21:15)

I do believe that anyone who does any work in day of Sabbath, should be put to death (Ex 31:14)

I do believe that anyone who ever drinks blood, should be put to death (Lv 17:14)

I do believe that anyone who sleeps with his wife during menstruation should be put to death (Lv 18:19,29; 20:18)

I do believe that anyone who is commiting adultery should be put to death (Lv 20:10)

I do believe that anyone who mocks God's name (whatever in home, or in public, in TV, in Radio, in Internet, etc) should be put to death (Lv 24:16)

I hope, ShadowMaid, that you believe the same.


P.S. I also believe what is written in Rm 6:23 that everyone who sins is worthy of death. Even YOU and ME.

I would agree with you, if you can show me very similar verses from the NT. Though I believe some are in the NT, like adultery. But if you could show me the others in the NT, I'll believe you. :)

beanieboy
May 4th, 2004, 03:35 PM
If you don't believe in the OT, how can you believe in the bible?

It says nothing of execution of anyone in the NT.
All death penalties are in the OT.
Yet you believe that.

Why's that?

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

If you don't believe in the OT, how can you believe in the bible?

It says nothing of execution of anyone in the NT.
All death penalties are in the OT.
Yet you believe that.

Why's that?

I believe those things actually happened in the OT. And I believe we should use the OT as a sort of and example. But I don't think it should be taken as literally as the NT for our rules.

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

I would agree with you, if you can show me very similar verses from the NT. Though I believe some are in the NT, like adultery. But if you could show me the others in the NT, I'll believe you. :)

I would agree with you too if you would show me from NT that homos should be put to death.

Cyrus of Persia
May 4th, 2004, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

I believe those things actually happened in the OT. And I believe we should use the OT as a sort of and example. But I don't think it should be taken as literally as the NT for our rules.

Then why do you believe that homos should be put to death, but those other people i cited from the Law are somehow different?

wickwoman
May 4th, 2004, 05:44 PM
Dear Beanieboy:

As I read the many replies I hear all the angry and excited voices in my head, like the crowds that cried to Jesus, "stone her!" when the adulterous woman was brought before him. And it wasn't that he forgave her but that he showed her there was nothing to forgive.

I remember again, "it's all Buddha" and see that, for you, these babbling, angry, executioners have but provided for you an example of how you can be different and provide the opposing force - love. It works!

And, life goes on. As I separate myself from these angry voices here, I find how wonderful it is to be alive. The summer's first lightning bugs are coming out and lighting up the fields near my home at night. And, the whipporwhills have begun calling to each other from the oak trees overhead. Tonight at the full moon, I will ask for special patience and peace for you as I take my walk.

Poly
May 4th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by wickwoman

And, life goes on. As I separate myself from these angry voices here, I find how wonderful it is to be alive. The summer's first lightning bugs are coming out and lighting up the fields near my home at night. And, the whipporwhills have begun calling to each other from the oak trees overhead. Tonight at the full moon, I will ask for special patience and peace for you as I take my walk.
"Kumbaya, My Lord, Kumbaya...." everybody now, "Kumbaya, My Lord, Kumbaya."

One Eyed Jack
May 4th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Sometimes, TOL reminds me of Seven, the guy that uses the Seven Deadly Sins that people commit and force them to kill themselves.
And he can do it, because he is above them, sinless.

Apparently, you didn't pay much attention to the movie.

One Eyed Jack
May 4th, 2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
I do believe that anyone who sleeps with his wife during menstruation should be put to death (Lv 18:19,29; 20:18)

This doesn't carry the death sentence in the Bible. Did you even read the proof texts you offered?


From Leviticus:
18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness.

18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

Aussie Thinker
May 4th, 2004, 07:14 PM
WOW,

If you came across this thread with NO preconceived notion and NO religious leaning you would think that the Christians here belong to an evil sect of intolerant animals.

Notable exceptions being Servant101 and Cyrus.

When I think about dangers to society I see ShadowMaid and her ilk as something horrific.

The brainless bigotry exhibited by her is truly frightening.

Fortunately for us the way she thinks is an anathema to NORMAL humans and we can laugh at her inanity. Unfortunately all humans no matter how stupid CAN breed. I hope for whatever God you believe in’s sake that she doesn’t.. mind you I have faith in human nature so I am sure her offspring would see through her inanities and bigotry and learn their own way through life.

Wickwoman (sorry for the rant it was your thread)

It is ok to accept evil (as part of our nature) but that should not lead to complacency against it.

Do we have any evidence for Buddhist societies getting it “right” more than other societies ?

Jack,

Cut off in those days usually meant banished to starve or into slavery.. but regardless.. a punishment for sleeping with a Woman during her menstrual period is the most ridiculous, primitive load of rubbish I think I have EVER heard.

Christine
May 4th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Do you have any facts, or links to give us that gays often molest children? And that they do it more often than heterosexualists?
No, but I believe it too be true.

I got news for you: gluttons DO hurt others. They invite you and tempt you with lot of food in their table and make you eat too much. So i see no difference between glutton and homo.
Maybe gluttons do hurt others, but God did not perscribe the death penalty for gluttony like he did for sodomy.


Actually i see gluttons doing lot more damage to their and other peoples health what is uncompareable to what homos do. Actually i'm yet to hear from you any idea why being gay is sin besides of being sin back in times where being fertile was all that mattered.
:kookoo: What about AIDS, herpes, hepititis, and other diseases sodomites get?

JoyfulRook
May 4th, 2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that rebellious children who kick their parents should be put to death (Ex 21:15) That was under the Law.


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that anyone who does any work in day of Sabbath, should be put to death (Ex 31:14)
Law

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that anyone who ever drinks blood, should be put to death (Lv 17:14) Uhh, that would be Law

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that anyone who sleeps with his wife during menstruation should be put to death (Lv 18:19,29; 20:18) Law again.

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that anyone who is commiting adultery should be put to death (Lv 20:10) Law and Grace

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I do believe that anyone who mocks God's name (whatever in home, or in public, in TV, in Radio, in Internet, etc) should be put to death (Lv 24:16) Law, but I believe punishable under Grace.



Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

P.S. I also believe what is written in Rm 6:23 that everyone who sins is worthy of death. Even YOU and ME.
:chuckle: :shut:

Aussie Thinker
May 4th, 2004, 08:17 PM
Christine,

Your GOD did not prescribe the death penalty for anything..

MAN wrote the Bible.. you CHOOSE to think God did it !

You just want a demented inane excuse for you own ridiculous bigotry.

Gluttony is a FAR more evil thing to modern man than homosexuality.

Gluttons guzzle limited resources while 1/3 of the world starve, Gluttons overload the medical systems with their myriad of problems, Gluttons take up time and space with their gluttony…

Homosexuals have consensual sex with each other.. it affects NO ONE…

What about all the diseases heterosexuals get !

Jesus messages about life in general and love your fellow man, turn the other cheek and do unto others etc.. are completely LOST on you. If Jesus really was God (or son of) he would be sending YOU straight to HELL !

Christine
May 4th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Christine,

Your GOD did not prescribe the death penalty for anything..

MAN wrote the Bible.. you CHOOSE to think God did it !

Men inspired by God wrote the Bible. It was God-breathed.


You just want a demented inane excuse for you own ridiculous bigotry.
I didn't even condemn anyone and you call me a bigot?


Gluttony is a FAR more evil thing to modern man than homosexuality.

Gluttons guzzle limited resources while 1/3 of the world starve, Gluttons overload the medical systems with their myriad of problems, Gluttons take up time and space with their gluttony…

Homosexuals have consensual sex with each other.. it affects NO ONE…
It affects the spouses they run off and leave. It affects their parents who have to live with their child's life of sin. If affects any children they had when they were straight. Sodomy affects many.


What about all the diseases heterosexuals get !
What about them?


essages about life in general and love your fellow man, turn the other cheek and do unto others etc.. are completely LOST on you. If Jesus really was God (or son of) he would be sending YOU straight to HELL !
You should read more of the Bible, instead of skipping around to the parts you think fit you're way of thinking. Jesus was the Son of God, who condmn people, who will someday send people to hell. This does not sound like the Jesus you describe.
.

PureX
May 4th, 2004, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by wickwoman As I read the many replies I hear all the angry and excited voices in my head, like the crowds that cried to Jesus, "stone her!" when the adulterous woman was brought before him. And it wasn't that he forgave her but that he showed her there was nothing to forgive. So far, here in america, those voices shouting for blood are silenced by the rule of laws based on individual rights and freedoms. But as the lust for blood (imagined to be divine justice) grows, it may someday be able to overpower the rule of laws that protect us from the howl of even a "righteous" majority.

There are a lot of places in this world that Jesus doesn't seem to reach, and where the cry of the crowd becomes blood and stone. And this could become one of them if some Christians get their way.

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Aussie Thinker, I don't have children yet.

And I'm only 14. I'm still practicing my debating skills.

Aussie Thinker
May 4th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Shadowmaid,


Aussie Thinker, I don't have children yet.

And I'm only 14. I'm still practicing my debating skills.

I did not realise I was dealing with a child… mind you I know plenty of 14 yo’s who do have adult opinions.. maybe you will get your own one day ?

I should pass my invective on to you parents or whoever it was who filled your head with inane hatred in the name of God.

You really need to wait until you have experienced life.. go and meet and talk to some homosexuals.. you will find (surprise surprise) that they are humans just like you with the same desires goals and needs.

Stop spouting your parents bigotry and learn for yourself.

Christine..

You seemed to condone the bigotry others had posted but looking back you don’t outright condem.. so I guess an apology is order…

BTW you weren’t going to hell anyway.. pssst.. it doesn’t exist !

ShadowMaid
May 4th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Shadowmaid,



I did not realise I was dealing with a child… mind you I know plenty of 14 yo’s who do have adult opinions.. maybe you will get your own one day ?

I should pass my invective on to you parents or whoever it was who filled your head with inane hatred in the name of God.

You really need to wait until you have experienced life.. go and meet and talk to some homosexuals.. you will find (surprise surprise) that they are humans just like you with the same desires goals and needs.

Stop spouting your parents bigotry and learn for yourself.

Christine..

You seemed to condone the bigotry others had posted but looking back you don’t outright condem.. so I guess an apology is order…

BTW you weren’t going to hell anyway.. pssst.. it doesn’t exist !

Aussie Thinker, I will do my best not to talk with a homo. :vomit:

Aussie Thinker
May 4th, 2004, 10:14 PM
Shadowmaid…

What is it that worries you so much about “homos” ?

I can only think of 1 thing.. they reduce the number of eligible men …lol..

I can remember when I was a bit homophobic in my youth a mate once said…

“Maaaate…Poofs (Aussie vernacular) are a good thing.. the more of them there are the more Chicks there are for us”…. that was good enough for me…lol

Seriously girl how can you judge homosexuals unless you talk to them.

Lion
May 5th, 2004, 12:40 AM
Aussie Thinker said:
The brainless bigotry exhibited by her is truly frightening.

Fortunately for us the way she thinks is an anathema to NORMAL humans and we can laugh at her inanity. Unfortunately all humans no matter how stupid CAN breed. I hope for whatever God you believe in’s sake that she doesn’t.. mind you I have faith in human nature so I am sure her offspring would see through her inanities and bigotry and learn their own way through life.
What a hypocritical fool you are. You say she is bigoted but you, who call her and others here names, just because they believe differently than you, are not?

As for normal humans, you ought to do a little research before you spout off. The overwhelming majority of mankind does not accept the perversion of homosexuality, nor do they condone it.

And as for the ability for stupid to breed, you are living proof of that. I just hope you don’t so it won’t be passed on again.

And as for your faith in human nature, would that be the human nature of evolution? You know, survival of the fittest? Like Hitler and Stalin believed in? No thanks I’ll take the God nature that He has offered us.


Cut off in those days usually meant banished to starve or into slavery.. but regardless.. a punishment for sleeping with a Woman during her menstrual period is the most ridiculous, primitive load of rubbish I think I have EVER heard.You really shouldn’t talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of. To be “cut off” meant to be put to death, in both the Old Testament and New. And if you can't even get that right you have zero chance of getting the symbolism of the prohibition against having relations during a woman’s cycle.


Gluttony is a FAR more evil thing to modern man than homosexuality. Oh, so at least you do acknowledge that homosexuality is an evil thing.


Gluttons guzzle limited resources while 1/3 of the world starve, Gluttons overload the medical systems with their myriad of problems, Gluttons take up time and space with their gluttony…

Homosexuals have consensual sex with each other.. it affects NO ONE…

What about all the diseases heterosexuals get !

Jesus messages about life in general and love your fellow man, turn the other cheek and do unto others etc.. are completely LOST on you. If Jesus really was God (or son of) he would be sending YOU straight to HELL !

Here you prove yourself the human hater you really are. Gee what should we do with all the glutinous people in the world? Kill them, then the poor Earth won’t be overcrowded anymore.

What a fool!

And homos affect everyone with their horrid perversion. They go out and have sex and them come back and give it to their unsuspecting wives or girlfriends. Otherwise there wouldn’t be aids in the heterosexual culture at all. And don’t try the stupid drug, or blood transfusion bit, because it still all comes back to what you disgustingly refer to as “poofers.” Oh, and what did your stupid statement about all the diseases heterosexuals get, mean? Is there a heterosexual disease that homo’s don’t get? I don’t think so. Moron!

And Jesus is the one that said if a man lay with a man as with a woman he shall be put to death. His blood is on his own head. Because like it or not, Jesus is God. But hey, don’t take my word for it, wait till you die and then you will know.


I did not realise I was dealing with a child… mind you I know plenty of 14 yo’s who do have adult opinions.. maybe you will get your own one day ?

I should pass my invective on to you parents or whoever it was who filled your head with inane hatred in the name of God.
Wow, big bad man. You knew she was 14 this time and you still treat her like dirt and try and pervert her. I will gladly stand in judgment of you on Judgment day and help condemn you to hell for that. Your only hope is to repent to God and accept the gift of His Son, but I don’t find that likely.


You really need to wait until you have experienced life.. go and meet and talk to some homosexuals.. you will find (surprise surprise) that they are humans just like you with the same desires goals and needs.

Stop spouting your parents bigotry and learn for yourself.Right, instead spout your kind of bigotry against Christians? Again you play the hypocrite.

As for going out to meet homos, why not tell her to go and talk with a nice pedophile too? Of course they are often the same thing.

And by what right do you try and take authority over her parents? What kind of sick thinking led you to do that?

You make me sick.


Shadow Maid, it is not your job to take on filth like this, I strongly advise you to have no further correspondence with this trash. You are not physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough for these types of battles. Practice debating with fellow Christians until you are older and more prepared to take on the garbage of the world.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

This doesn't carry the death sentence in the Bible. Did you even read the proof texts you offered?

Of course i read! I read them from my Estonian Bible, where some wording can be bit different than in this English version, but it still has translated from original Hebrew. It clearly tells me that having sex during menstruation period is wrong and should be punished with death. "Cut off" - "destroyed" (in Estonian Bible), what means should be killed.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by Christine

No, but I believe it too be true.


:doh:

I believe that Christine is child-molester. I do not have any facts, i just believe it.

How do you like this false accusation?




Maybe gluttons do hurt others, but God did not perscribe the death penalty for gluttony like he did for sodomy.


Nor has He perscribed death penalty for homos since NT. You can find this rule no where in NT that we should put homos to death. What you do find is that EVERYONE of us is worthy of death, because of our sins. Your sin is not smaller than the sins of homos, Christine.





:kookoo: What about AIDS, herpes, hepititis, and other diseases sodomites get?

And you think that heterosexuals dont have the same diseases? I dont even bother to ask you any facts to prove your claims, because you just decided to BELIEVE it. Good luck!


P.S. Do you ever have read what was the actual sin of those people who lived in Sodom? Care to quess? :chuckle:

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Law, but I believe punishable under Grace.



The same way as you just BELIEVE that mocking God could be also punishable under grace, you decided to BELIEVE that homosexuality deserves to be punished under Grace too.

You just believe :crackup:

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Aussie Thinker, I will do my best not to talk with a homo. :vomit:

Very Jesus-like. Thanks for sharing how much you follow your Jesus.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Lion

You really shouldn’t talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of. To be “cut off” meant to be put to death, in both the Old Testament and New.

I hope One Eyed Jack reads it :thumb:

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by Lion

Shadow Maid, it is not your job to take on filth like this, I strongly advise you to have no further correspondence with this trash. You are not physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough for these types of battles. Practice debating with fellow Christians until you are older and more prepared to take on the garbage of the world.

So you suggest ShadowMaid to get more involved in ideology that supports HATRED AND LIES about homos, and when she grows up she can come even with bolder convictions how unhuman, devilish, and deep in sin homos are?

So you just suggest we should take one category of people and just bash them? Maybe you would like all homos put into concentration camp too so they would sent to gas chamber our of our face?

This is spreading hatred and looking away from other sins that are way more serious in the eyes of God IMO. :nono:

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 07:01 AM
originally posted by LionWow, big bad man. You knew she was 14 this time and you still treat her like dirt and try and pervert her. I will gladly stand in judgment of you on Judgment day and help condemn you to hell for that. Your only hope is to repent to God and accept the gift of His Son, but I don’t find that likely.
Actually Lion, I believe that one was directed at me. I'm 16, not 14, but thanks for jumping in. :)

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 07:05 AM
Lion,


What a hypocritical fool you are. You say she is bigoted but you, who call her and others here names, just because they believe differently than you, are not?

People who advocate DEATH for others for consensual adult sexual preferences are bigoted.. I rail at THEIR view. There is no bigotry there.. Someone who complains about Nazis and the KKK are hardly bigoted toward them ?


As for normal humans, you ought to do a little research before you spout off. The overwhelming majority of mankind does not accept the perversion of homosexuality, nor do they condone it.

Homosexuality has been around since man first crawled out of the cave (before even.. animals do it too so it is obviously a natural urge for many).


And as for the ability for stupid to breed, you are living proof of that. I just hope you don’t so it won’t be passed on again.

Oh I have 3 fine children my son just got elected school captain. And you know what… he thinks homosexuals are just other humans. My others wont grow up bigoted about ANYONE !


And as for your faith in human nature, would that be the human nature of evolution? You know, survival of the fittest? Like Hitler and Stalin believed in? No thanks I’ll take the God nature that He has offered us.

I’ll take the natural empathy man has for his fellow man. The ONLY moral guide that exists that is not tainted with religious mumbo jumbo. Hitler mentioned God a LOT in his speeches.


You really shouldn’t talk about things you obviously have no knowledge of. To be “cut off” meant to be put to death, in both the Old Testament and New. And if you can't even get that right you have zero chance of getting the symbolism of the prohibition against having relations during a woman’s cycle.

You better talk to OEJ then he seems to think it didn’t mean Death either. So you do advocate death for the horrific crime of sleeping with a woman who is menstruating??? You belong in the dark ages.


Oh, so at least you do acknowledge that homosexuality is an evil thing.

No.. gluttony is MORE evil.. homosexuality is not at all and gluttony is a little bit evil !


Here you prove yourself the human hater you really are. Gee what should we do with all the glutinous people in the world? Kill them, then the poor Earth won’t be overcrowded anymore.

Sounds like you eat a bit too much. I NEVER advocated killing .. that is your type of agenda.. I merely said on a scale of thing gluttony is worse than homosexuality


What a fool!

[Bart Simpson Mode] You are .. but what about me..


And homos affect everyone with their horrid perversion. They go out and have sex and them come back and give it to their unsuspecting wives or girlfriends. Otherwise there wouldn’t be aids in the heterosexual culture at all. And don’t try the stupid drug, or blood transfusion bit, because it still all comes back to what you disgustingly refer to as “poofers.” Oh, and what did your stupid statement about all the diseases heterosexuals get, mean? Is there a heterosexual disease that homo’s don’t get? I don’t think so. Moron!

Oh you are going over the top with your stupidity here…

I would say it was BI-sexuals that go from male partners to female partners.
Aids was a heterosexual disease spread throughout Africa where it remains so.
Homosexuals are more susceptible to catching it because like Africans they have a culture of many sexual partners etc.


And Jesus is the one that said if a man lay with a man as with a woman he shall be put to death. His blood is on his own head. Because like it or not, Jesus is God. But hey, don’t take my word for it, wait till you die and then you will know.

Well I hunted the KJV for 30 minutes but could not find Jesus saying this.. please point me to it.. Sad I may have to change my opinion of the man !


Wow, big bad man. You knew she was 14 this time and you still treat her like dirt and try and pervert her.

I deliberately toned down when I found out her age.. however it is even MORE important at that age that she gets a balanced view on life .. I speak of tolerance you speak of DEATH for homosexuals and people who sleep with menstrual women.. who is PERVERTED !


I will gladly stand in judgment of you on Judgment day and help condemn you to hell for that. Your only hope is to repent to God and accept the gift of His Son, but I don’t find that likely.

Haha.. if there is a God it is you and your Ilk he would condemn.. I can just see it now.. you sentenced them to Death for THAT ???.. Are you an idiot ?


Right, instead spout your kind of bigotry against Christians? Again you play the hypocrite.

Everyone I Know and love are Christians.. not your perverted fundamental death dealing type Christians.. ones who honestly love their fellow man regardless of preferences.


As for going out to meet homos, why not tell her to go and talk with a nice pedophile too? Of course they are often the same thing.

You are one sick puppy.. you KNOW there is NO link between Homosexuals and Pedophiles.. In fact almost ALL pedophiles are heterosexuals.. you HAVE to link them to some sick perversion to maintain your hatred of them.. you need help.


And by what right do you try and take authority over her parents? What kind of sick thinking led you to do that?

If her parents have promoted the bigotry she has then they need help too. A balanced view is always helpful. The poor girl will grow up and realize homosexuals are just people like me and you and then what.. hate herself for hating them .. hate her parents for promoting the bigotry.. better that she learns something about real life NOW


You make me sick.

The feeling is quite mutual.


Shadow Maid, it is not your job to take on filth like this, I strongly advise you to have no further correspondence with this trash. You are not physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough for these types of battles. Practice debating with fellow Christians until you are older and more prepared to take on the garbage of the world.

Yet she is physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough to HATE homosexuals enough without KNOWING any to want them to all be executed.. You have a demented way of thinking.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Well I hunted the KJV for 30 minutes but could not find Jesus saying this.. please point me to it.. Sad I may have to change my opinion of the man !



Actually there is NO written record that Jesus EVER said so (not in canonical Gospels, nor in non-canonical Gospels as far as i have read them). But fundies love to think that if something was written in Jewish Law, then it was spoken by Jesus himself, methinks. They take it as safe-line to keep their ill-willed doctrines and approve anything they want with twisting scriptures and ascribing to Jesus whatever words they like. :help:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 08:41 AM
1 Kings 14:24
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

1 Kings 15:12
And he banished the sodomites from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

1 Kings 22:46
And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he removed from the land.

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

1 Timothy 1:10
and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,


1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;

Nothing AGAINST Homos in the Bible, huh?

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
People who advocate DEATH for others for consensual adult sexual preferences are bigoted.. I rail at THEIR view. There is no bigotry there.. Someone who complains about Nazis and the KKK are hardly bigoted toward them ?
Nah no bigotry there. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Homosexuality has been around since man first crawled out of the cave (before even.. animals do it too so it is obviously a natural urge for many).
I'd Really Like to see some proof for that. :chuckle:

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Oh I have 3 fine children my son just got elected school captain. And you know what… he thinks homosexuals are just other humans. My others wont grow up bigoted about ANYONE !

Boy I'd be embarassed at my kids if that happened. Reminds me of the Bumper sticker "My Kid bead up your honor student". That's what happens when your kid gets effeminant. :nono:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

No.. gluttony is MORE evil.. homosexuality is not at all and gluttony is a little bit evil !
YOURE BIGOTED AGAINST GLUTTONS! And not Homos? MIXED UP PRIORITY ALERT!!! :freak:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Aids was a heterosexual disease spread throughout Africa where it remains so.
Homosexuals are more susceptible to catching it because like Africans they have a culture of many sexual partners etc.

It's called recriminalize Bestiality, Adultery, and Homosexuality, and reinstate, celebacy until marriage, beetween a man and a woman.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

I deliberately toned down when I found out her age.. however it is even MORE important at that age that she gets a balanced view on life .. I speak of tolerance you speak of DEATH for homosexuals and people who sleep with menstrual women.. who is PERVERTED !
I'm 12 so keep it down ;)

QUOTE]Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Haha.. if there is a God it is you and your Ilk he would condemn.. I can just see it now.. you sentenced them to Death for THAT ???.. Are you an idiot ? [/Quote] No I think you are and if you don't repent you will burn in hellfire for eternity.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Everyone I Know and love are Christians.. not your perverted fundamental death dealing type Christians.. ones who honestly love their fellow man regardless of preferences. Then you wouldn't like Jesus cause he called people names, was mean, and FUFILLED the Law (which was mean). But I agree maybe we do emphasize this too much. He was also kind and loving, but was NOT the effeminate, love everyone no matter what, girly-Jesus. He was a true man.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

You are one sick puppy.. you KNOW there is NO link between Homosexuals and Pedophiles.. In fact almost ALL pedophiles are heterosexuals.. you HAVE to link them to some sick perversion to maintain your hatred of them.. you need help. Again check your studies , facts, and resources. If you have any, :chuckle:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

If her parents have promoted the bigotry she has then they need help too. A balanced view is always helpful. The poor girl will grow up and realize homosexuals are just people like me and you and then what.. hate herself for hating them .. hate her parents for promoting the bigotry.. better that she learns something about real life NOW College Student: "I've learned to think for myself..." Christian: "Who told you to do that?" College Student: "My Proffesor" :kookoo:
You need to learn something.

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Yet she is physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough to HATE homosexuals enough without KNOWING any to want them to all be executed.. You have a demented way of thinking. And the boy that was raped by a Homo Priest and later commited suicide, you would say was not physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough to HATE homosexuals enough without KNOWING any to want them to all be executed. I think YOU have a demented way of thinking. :nono: :shocked: :freak:

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 09:27 AM
Lets borrow a parable…


"Two men went up into a little church chapel to pray, one a committed Christian and the other a practicing homosexual "The Committed Christian stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: secular humanists, pro choice advocates, adulterers, or even like this practicing homosexual. 'I have my morning quiet time; I pay tithes of all that I earn.'

"But the practicing homosexual, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was praying quietly, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Who went away justified before God that day?

Grace and Peace

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Lets borrow a parable…


"Two men went up into a little church chapel to pray, one a committed Christian and the other a practicing homosexual "The Committed Christian stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: secular humanists, pro choice advocates, adulterers, or even like this practicing homosexual. 'I have my morning quiet time; I pay tithes of all that I earn.'

"But the practicing homosexual, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was praying quietly, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

Who went away justified before God that day?

Grace and Peace

The Sinner, but he should still pay the price for his actions, even if he repented and stopped his evil. The sinner, if he believes, will live in heaven, but should still be executed. Was that supposed to be a trick question? :chuckle:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Lets borrow a parable…
"The Committed Christian stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: secular humanists, pro choice advocates, adulterers, or even like this practicing homosexual. 'I have my morning quiet time; I pay tithes of all that I earn.'

Sounds like the Christian was a legalist. :chuckle:

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

The Sinner, but he should still pay the price for his actions, even if he repented and stopped his evil. The sinner, if he believes, will live in heaven, but should still be executed. Was that supposed to be a trick question? :chuckle:

Ah, he should still pay the price for his actions.

Ok, lets use another bibical character, David.

What was David's sin with bathsheba?

What was the Levitical penalty for that Sin?

Did David suffer the penalty for that sin?

Why?

beanieboy
May 5th, 2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Apparently, you didn't pay much attention to the movie.

That's how he rationalized it.
Take the obese man. He said, "Come on. This is the kind of guy that you see on the subway, and you want to (get this) puke because he is so fat. Why would anyone be so disgusting as to let themselves go like that."

He then forces the guy to eat until he dies.

He shows contempt.
He wants others to agree with him.
He himself was not fat.
The person disgusted him.
And he thought the person deserved death.

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Sounds like the Christian was a legalist. :chuckle:

Maybe, what does that have to do with the homosexual's justification before God?

erinmarie
May 5th, 2004, 10:07 AM
I think, no, I'm pretty darn sure that children shouldn't be involved in this debate. At some points in this thread, I was shocked at the amount of knowledge they already have on this subject. I don't know about any of you, but I remember being 12 YEARS OLD, and I sure as heck didn't know what sodomy was. And I definitely couldn't have formed this sentence without scratching my head! This is a quote from out resident child wonder:


It's called recriminalize Bestiality, Adultery, and Homosexuality, and reinstate, celebacy until marriage, beetween a man and a woman.

I'm very sure that the inborn hate that is bred in these very young posters is an abomination. And this hate is almost searing in essence. I know that homosexuality is a sin, I know that it is wrong, and if the sinner does not repent and stop committing the sin, they are certainly going to hell. Anything, any conversation outside of this sure fact is not only fruitless but breeds the type of hate that the world at large, and the young people that will carry the future should be rid of.
Kids- You meet a homosexual couple on the street. You know that yes they are committing a great sin, and yes they are wrong. Hating them doesn't do any good, and in most cases neither does witnessing to them. But if you hate, if you take part in the hateful exercise of "gay-bashing" then you're no better than the racists and the bigots and the people that make this world a mess.
Hitler hated homosexuals, he sent many of them to the death camps, he ordered the gestapo to shoot down many of them in the streets, even men who were just repudiated to be homosexual.
How can prove that someone committed sodomy without a doubt? Are we going to start bringing homosexuals to justice and trying their crimes in a court of law? Are we going to bring forth witnesses and DNA evidence that will ensure they will be tried and put to death by a jury of their peers?

Aside from all that, I know that Aussie Thinker is rough around the edges, and very often wrong but comments like these:



Boy I'd be embarassed at my kids if that happened. Reminds me of the Bumper sticker "My Kid bead up your honor student". That's what happens when your kid gets effeminant.

are not only uncalled for, but have no basis in fact. It's called respecting your elders. And I don't care how much you disagree with them, you don't rip on their offspring.:eek: :ha:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Ah, he should still pay the price for his actions.

Ok, lets use another bibical character, David.

What was David's sin with bathsheba?
Adultery and Murder


Originally posted by BChristianK

What was the Levitical penalty for that Sin?
Death.

Originally posted by BChristianK

Did David suffer the penalty for that sin?
Yep, but not directly. His son died and his Kingdom was torn in two.


Originally posted by BChristianK
Why?

God would be unjust to let this go unpunished. So he punished him, with a different sort of pain, equal to death. Another trick question? :chuckle:

Duder
May 5th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Dread Helm -

Hold on a second. You seem to say that God demands "a pound of flesh" whenever someone sins. But if God has a special affection for the actual sinner, he'll take it out on another person not involved in the sin. It doesn't really matter - just so long as God gets His "pound of flesh"?

Flipper
May 5th, 2004, 11:02 AM
Erinmarie:


Are we going to start bringing homosexuals to justice and trying their crimes in a court of law? Are we going to bring forth witnesses and DNA evidence that will ensure they will be tried and put to death by a jury of their peers?

That's pretty much what the Enyartians want, yeah. Except, of course, for the part about the jury. They're not big on "presumed innocence until found guilty."

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by erinmarie

I think, no, I'm pretty darn sure that children shouldn't be involved in this debate. At some points in this thread, I was shocked at the amount of knowledge they already have on this subject. I don't know about any of you, but I remember being 12 YEARS OLD, and I sure as heck didn't know what sodomy was. And I definitely couldn't have formed this sentence without scratching my head!

Is that a problem? It's our generation this evil has come into. Is it wrong for me to fight it? It's a sick world, and if anyone. it's going to be MY generation that will change it.


Originally posted by erinmarie
I'm very sure that the inborn hate that is bred in these very young posters is an abomination. And this hate is almost searing in essence. I know that homosexuality is a sin, I know that it is wrong, and if the sinner does not repent and stop committing the sin, they are certainly going to hell. Anything, any conversation outside of this sure fact is not only fruitless but breeds the type of hate that the world at large, and the young people that will carry the future should be rid of.

I am homophobic. I believe exactly what you said. "Homosexuality is a sin, it is wrong, and if the sinner does not repent and stop committing the sin, they are certainly going to hell." Did I say anything more?


Originally posted by erinmarie
Kids- You meet a homosexual couple on the street. You know that yes they are committing a great sin, and yes they are wrong. Hating them doesn't do any good, and in most cases neither does witnessing to them. But if you hate, if you take part in the hateful exercise of "gay-bashing" then you're no better than the racists and the bigots and the people that make this world a mess.
If you love a homo enough you should tell them: "Homosexuality is a sin, it is wrong, and if the sinner does not repent and stop committing the sin, they are certainly going to hell."


Originally posted by erinmarie
How can prove that someone committed sodomy without a doubt? Are we going to start bringing homosexuals to justice and trying their crimes in a court of law? Are we going to bring forth witnesses and DNA evidence that will ensure they will be tried and put to death by a jury of their peers?

Yes we shall bring them to justice, but not by a commitee, nor shoot them down in the streets. They will be arrested, detained for a quick and speedy trial, and by the evidence of two or three witnesses, shall face the punishment of their iniquities: Execution.


Originally posted by erinmarie
...are not only uncalled for, but have no basis in fact. It's called respecting your elders. And I don't care how much you disagree with them, you don't rip on their offspring.:eek: :ha:

Maybe I was wrong about the bumper sticker thing. It just reminded me of that. Sorry for that if it was uncalled for Aussie. :thumb:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 11:15 AM

beanieboy
May 5th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by wickwoman

Dear Beanieboy:

As I read the many replies I hear all the angry and excited voices in my head, like the crowds that cried to Jesus, "stone her!" when the adulterous woman was brought before him. And it wasn't that he forgave her but that he showed her there was nothing to forgive.

I remember again, "it's all Buddha" and see that, for you, these babbling, angry, executioners have but provided for you an example of how you can be different and provide the opposing force - love. It works!

And, life goes on. As I separate myself from these angry voices here, I find how wonderful it is to be alive. The summer's first lightning bugs are coming out and lighting up the fields near my home at night. And, the whipporwhills have begun calling to each other from the oak trees overhead. Tonight at the full moon, I will ask for special patience and peace for you as I take my walk.

There are some of you, you for example, that you speak, and all I can think is to lower my head, and say, "Thank you, God." Sincerely. It's like God is speaking to me. And I thank you for that, ww, for speaking out.

And thank you for reminding me that I can respond with love instead of anger, and to be appreciative and thankful of all that is around me.

Again, thank you to both of you.

Duder
May 5th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Dread Helm -

I only just noticed your signature, where a guy is shooting a fag to death. I see that you are another hate-filled bigot passing himself off as a Christian.

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by wickwoman

Dear Beanieboy:

As I read the many replies I hear all the angry and excited voices in my head, like the crowds that cried to Jesus, "stone her!" when the adulterous woman was brought before him. And it wasn't that he forgave her but that he showed her there was nothing to forgive.

I remember again, "it's all Buddha" and see that, for you, these babbling, angry, executioners have but provided for you an example of how you can be different and provide the opposing force - love. It works!

And, life goes on. As I separate myself from these angry voices here, I find how wonderful it is to be alive. The summer's first lightning bugs are coming out and lighting up the fields near my home at night. And, the whipporwhills have begun calling to each other from the oak trees overhead. Tonight at the full moon, I will ask for special patience and peace for you as I take my walk.

Smoke that stuff! :chuckle: Leftover maggot infested hippie sandwich anyone? :chew:

On Fire
May 5th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by wickwoman
Tonight at the full moon, I will ask for special patience and peace for you as I take my walk.

I knew it! She's a werewolf!

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Originally posted by Duder

Dread Helm -

I only just noticed your signature, where a guy is shooting a fag to death. I see that you are another hate-filled bigot passing himself off as a Christian.
Actually that is representative of a firing squad as what the punishment should be. Government's Job. And do you not believe I am a Christian? I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and believe that he rose from the dead. Is that just "passing myself off" or am I a True Christian? I'm interested to see your answer.:thumb:

beanieboy
May 5th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Duder

Dread Helm -

I only just noticed your signature, where a guy is shooting a fag to death. I see that you are another hate-filled bigot passing himself off as a Christian.

My, Dread, what big teeth you have...

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

My, Dread, what big teeth you have...

My beanie, what a big mouth you have...
(course i'm one to talk... :D ) :crackup:

Duder
May 5th, 2004, 12:12 PM
Dread Helm -

I am afraid that, if you take such pleasure in looking forward to the killing of people you don't like very much, then whoever you accepted into you heart was not Jesus of Nazereth. The scriptures warn of false Christs. Darn it, I think you found one of them.

The happy smiley face after the depiction of an execution is a dead givaway.

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Duder

Dread Helm -

I am afraid that, if you take such pleasure in looking forward to the killing of people you don't like very much, then whoever you accepted into you heart was not Jesus of Nazereth. The scriptures warn of false Christs. Darn it, I think you found one of them.

The happy. smiley face afdter the depiction of an execution is a dead givaway. Not that I don't like, Criminals. And also, I love Homos enough to tell them that unless they repent they will be sent to hell for eternal damnation. Isn't that more loving, than the nonconfrontational "love" that will "love" them right into hell?
And No, I did accecpt Jesus, the son of the ONE TRUE GOD, into my heart. I'm worried about you, who would love them right to hell. That's not the God of the Bible.

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Dread Said


Yep, but not directly. His son died and his Kingdom was torn in two.

Well, there’s another who theological can of worms, but, you acknowledge that David didn’t suffer the levitical penalty for the sin of adultery, correct?

You claim that he suffered an equivalent punishment, so tell me then what the following means.


How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! (Psalm 32:2)


Did the Lord impute iniquity to David or not?
So God, Who prescribed death by stoning for adulterous behavior, was just in commuting David’s sentence, or at the very least, changing the penalty, right?
So when you say:




God would be unjust to let this go unpunished.

God would be unjust for letting the homosexual’s sin from going unpunished in an earthly punishment right?

So you must then conclude that Jesus was unjust for letting the woman caught in adultery go unpunished for her sin, which was the same as David’s, and which, like homosexuality, carried the Levitical penalty of death.

Now, what punishment of pain equal to death did the woman caught in adultery suffer?

Does her lack of punishment make God unjust?

Furthermore, we need to be consistent when dealing with sins, so the levitical penalty for working on the Sabbath was death? What penalty that is either death, or equal to death, does God impose on us today in this “dispensation?”

BTW, your very astute for a 12 year old, keep up the good work.



Grace and Peace

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Well, there’s another who theological can of worms, but, you acknowledge that David didn’t suffer the levitical penalty for the sin of adultery, correct?

You claim that he suffered an equivalent punishment, so tell me then what the following means.

Did the Lord impute iniquity to David or not?
So God, Who prescribed death by stoning for adulterous behavior, was just in commuting David’s sentence, or at the very least, changing the penalty, right?
So when you say:
God would be unjust for letting the homosexual’s sin from going unpunished in an earthly punishment right?

So you must then conclude that Jesus was unjust for letting the woman caught in adultery go unpunished for her sin, which was the same as David’s, and which, like homosexuality, carried the Levitical penalty of death.

Now, what punishment of pain equal to death did the woman caught in adultery suffer?

Does her lack of punishment make God unjust?

Furthermore, we need to be consistent when dealing with sins, so the levitical penalty for working on the Sabbath was death? What penalty that is either death, or equal to death, does God impose on us today in this “dispensation?”

BTW, your very astute for a 12 year old, keep up the good work.



Grace and Peace I'll have to get back to you on that. :thumb: I'm still learning, but I'm pretty sure about what I've already said. Also, The Sabbath was for the Dispensation of Law, so is inaplicable for us as Members os the Body.

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by erinmarie

I think, no, I'm pretty darn sure that children shouldn't be involved in this debate. At some points in this thread, I was shocked at the amount of knowledge they already have on this subject. I don't know about any of you, but I remember being 12 YEARS OLD, and I sure as heck didn't know what sodomy was. And I definitely couldn't have formed this sentence without scratching my head! This is a quote from out resident child wonder:
Erinmaire, why should this be a surprise? My parents taught me when I was 8 or 9 years old what sodomy is. No, I didn't understand all the sex, etc involved and they didn't explain it to me anyway. I did, however, no that it was wrong, abnormal, and not what God intended. They also told me about NAMBLA and other sodomite organizations.




I'm very sure that the inborn hate that is bred in these very young posters is an abomination. And this hate is almost searing in essence. I know that homosexuality is a sin, I know that it is wrong, and if the sinner does not repent and stop committing the sin, they are certainly going to hell. Anything, any conversation outside of this sure fact is not only fruitless but breeds the type of hate that the world at large, and the young people that will carry the future should be rid of.
Erinmarie, I'm not letting my life be overcome with hate.

Kids- You meet a homosexual couple on the street. You know that yes they are committing a great sin, and yes they are wrong. Hating them doesn't do any good, and in most cases neither does witnessing to them. But if you hate, if you take part in the hateful exercise of "gay-bashing" then you're no better than the racists and the bigots and the people that make this world a mess.
You never know whether someone will respond to witnessing or not. BTW: My father used to work for sodomites, I met them, I know what they're like.

Hitler hated homosexuals, he sent many of them to the death camps, he ordered the gestapo to shoot down many of them in the streets, even men who were just repudiated to be homosexual.
The Bible calls for the execution of known sodomites. Just because Hitler did something doesn't make it entirely wrong. Hitler probably had the wrong motives, though.

How can prove that someone committed sodomy without a doubt?
Can't you tell? By the way they talk, act, and carry on. Many times they're more than happy to tell you they're sodomites.

Are we going to start bringing homosexuals to justice and trying their crimes in a court of law? Are we going to bring forth witnesses and DNA evidence that will ensure they will be tried and put to death by a jury of their peers?
Sounds good to me, but in our liberal country, I doubt it will ever happen.

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 12:39 PM
The Sabbath was for the Dispensation of Law, so is inaplicable for us as Members os the Body.

A good dispensational answer, just what I thought you woud say.

So, why should the levitical penalties for homosexuality be applicable for us today if the laws of the sabbath aren't?
Doesn't that strike you as a bit inconsistent theologically?

We're all still learning...... :)

Grace and Peace

beanieboy
May 5th, 2004, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Not that I don't like, Criminals. And also, I love Homos enough to tell them that unless they repent they will be sent to hell for eternal damnation. Isn't that more loving, than the nonconfrontational "love" that will "love" them right into hell?
And No, I did accecpt Jesus, the son of the ONE TRUE GOD, into my heart. I'm worried about you, who would love them right to hell. That's not the God of the Bible.

This is false witness.

It is like a father that beats his son so hard, that his kid limps for a week because he said, shut up.

You say, You shouldn't beat your kid like that.
The father says, "which should I do, beat my child because I love him and want to discipline him, or let him do whatever he wants?"

There is an option C. Discipline them, but within reason.
You can slap the hand of a two year old and make them cry. You don't need to take a rod and beat them half an inch from their life.

So what you set up is a lie - a false witness.

And you keep saying that you love homos, and want them to repent (before arresting them and executing them.)
Hollow words.

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK

A good dispensational answer, just what I thought you woud say.

So, why should the levitical penalties for homosexuality be applicable for us today if the laws of the sabbath aren't?
Doesn't that strike you as a bit inconsistent theologically?

We're all still learning...... :)

Grace and Peace
Perhaps it's backed up in the New Testament, unlike keeping the Sabbath.
Yes, I'm still learning.

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Perhaps it's backed up in the New Testament, unlike keeping the Sabbath.
Yes, I'm still learning.

Perhaps it is, but if it is, I haven't found it yet.

And I'm still learning too.

Grace and Peace

beanieboy
May 5th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Perhaps it's backed up in the New Testament, unlike keeping the Sabbath.
Yes, I'm still learning.

There is no death penalty demanded in the NT.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

1 Kings 14:24
And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.

1 Kings 15:12
And he banished the sodomites from the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.

1 Kings 22:46
And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he removed from the land.


Do you know what was the sin of sodomites? Let us clear this up before using this word.




1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

1 Timothy 1:10
and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,


Greek word used here is "arsenokoitees" what is translated in dictionary as "male sexual pervert". It can mean any pedophile, zoophile, incest-lover, etc. It's not even used in Rom 1:27 what condemns homosexualism besides many other things. Can anybody give us some literature where the same is used for homosexualism outside of the NT?



1 Thessalonians 4:3
For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;


Nothing about homosexualism per se.



Nothing AGAINST Homos in the Bible, huh?

Levitical Law demans their death. Was it God's eternal word, or word speaken in certain time, certain place, to certain people?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

YOURE BIGOTED AGAINST GLUTTONS! And not Homos? MIXED UP PRIORITY ALERT!!! :freak:


You think that your priorities are more correct than Aussie has? Try again. Gluttony IS bigger problem than is homosexualism. Especially because you are too blind to see your sin when you eat as pig and pee on what Jesus said about overeating.




And the boy that was raped by a Homo Priest and later commited suicide, you would say was not physically, emotionally, or spiritually mature enough to HATE homosexuals enough without KNOWING any to want them to all be executed. I think YOU have a demented way of thinking. :nono: :shocked: :freak:

The world if filled with heteros who sexually abuse their kids. Does it gives them right to think that every hetero is pervert and should be executed? By using such logic i start really to believe that you are only 12 years old as you claimed.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

The Sinner, but he should still pay the price for his actions, even if he repented and stopped his evil. The sinner, if he believes, will live in heaven, but should still be executed. Was that supposed to be a trick question? :chuckle:

Yes, and Jesus was wrong about the woman whom Jesus said: "Who is without sin, shoot the first stone". He should have approved her killing, because she broke the Law. Or is homosexualism something special that should be "rewarded" by death, and adulterers should be not executed??

Freak
May 5th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

I knew it! She's a werewolf! :shocked:

One Eyed Jack
May 5th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Of course i read

Well, it looked like you didn't.


I read them from my Estonian Bible, where some wording can be bit different than in this English version, but it still has translated from original Hebrew. It clearly tells me that having sex during menstruation period is wrong and should be punished with death.

Where does it say that?


"Cut off" - "destroyed" (in Estonian Bible), what means should be killed.

No, 'cut off' means to be banished. When the Bible prescribes the death penalty for certain actions, it also generally mentions the means of execution. How does the Bible say to execute a man who commits this sin -- is he to be stoned, caught on fire, or what?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Yes we shall bring them to justice, but not by a commitee, nor shoot them down in the streets. They will be arrested, detained for a quick and speedy trial, and by the evidence of two or three witnesses, shall face the punishment of their iniquities: Execution.


What about adulterers? What about those who sex during menstruation period? About those who mock God? What about those who hit their parents?

The Law demands their execution too. I just wonder does Dread Helm demands the same?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Actually that is representative of a firing squad as what the punishment should be. Government's Job. And do you not believe I am a Christian? I have accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior and believe that he rose from the dead. Is that just "passing myself off" or am I a True Christian? I'm interested to see your answer.:thumb:

Q: What is the difference between Inquisitor and Dread Helm?

A: Nothing.

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 03:23 PM
Cyrus of Persia, just curious, what faith or belief system, if any, do you believe in?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Well, it looked like you didn't.


I think you should read what Lion said about the matter. How can it be that liberal christian and fundy christian find exactly the same meaning for this word? A miracle? Nope, i call it proper interpretation of the word we are talking about.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Cyrus of Persia, just curious, what faith or belief system, if any, do you believe in?

I believe in Jesus Christ. So i think it fits me into Christianity somehow :D

One Eyed Jack
May 5th, 2004, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I think you should read what Lion said about the matter.

I read it.


How can it be that liberal christian and fundy christian find exactly the same meaning for this word? A miracle? Nope, i call it proper interpretation of the word we are talking about.

I call it a coincidence. So tell me -- by what method should a man committing this sin be executed?

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I believe in Jesus Christ. So i think it fits me into Christianity somehow :D
What denomination (if any) do your beliefs allign with?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I call it a coincidence. So tell me -- by what method should a man committing this sin be executed?

I do not know. Ask maybe from some posters here who are Jews, or into Judaism.

What method was used in OT when executing homos?

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Christine

What denomination (if any) do your beliefs allign with?

My beliefs? Hard to tell. I'm still learning, still discovering God although i have been saved for 12 years, and had some Christian influences before that.

I'm Baptist minister. But it does not mean that my thinking is 100% baptist. Add to it that it's European baptism, not Southern Baptism of U.S., or kinda :chuckle:

LightSon
May 5th, 2004, 04:47 PM
Cyrus,


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I'm Baptist minister. But it does not mean that my thinking is 100% baptist.

Click here for a new thread I started about Baptist distinctives. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=517872#post517872)

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Well, there’s another who theological can of worms, but, you acknowledge that David didn’t suffer the levitical penalty for the sin of adultery, correct?
OK, I'm Back. So, he was repentant, and the sin ultimately comes back against God, so can God not forgive sins?


Originally posted by BChristianK
So you must then conclude that Jesus was unjust for letting the woman caught in adultery go unpunished for her sin, which was the same as David’s, and which, like homosexuality, carried the Levitical penalty of death.
God is able to for give it since she was repentant and all sins do come back to God.

Originally posted by BChristianK
Furthermore, we need to be consistent when dealing with sins, so the levitical penalty for working on the Sabbath was death? What penalty that is either death, or equal to death, does God impose on us today in this “dispensation?”
It was for the law. You've got to "rightly divide the word of truth". Murder, Sexual Immorality, are punishable with death they are not sybolic.

Originally posted by BChristianK
BTW, your very astute for a 12 year old, keep up the good work.
Grace and Peace Thanks :thumb:

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 05:12 PM
Geez the hate fest continues.

If Dread Helm is 12 years Old I AM God !

He is a pathetic bigoted poor excuse for a fundy who thinks it is cool to say he is 12 so he can generate compliments for his lucidity…

Thou shalt not bear false witness Dread…

BTW NO need to apologise for your comments about my Kid.. I just told you he was VOTED (by the other students) to be school captain. He REALLY is 12 Years Old this year and NOT effeminate at all.. he is excellent at school and a good sportsman. If you were really 12 I doubt you would stand a chance against him.. or any bigoted offspring you might produce.

Cyrus.. you fight the good fight.

Not that it helps you (HERE) to get compliments from an atheist like me but your actions far more resemble the sort of thing Jesus promoted than any of the hate filled types you argue with here.

Jack,

So who is right you or Lion.. that is the trouble with fundies you have a million interpretations of what is supposed to be LITERAL truth.. how are the rest of us supposed to get it.

BTW.. Jack may be a fundy but he certainly is not the hate filled moronic type like these others here.

Cyrus of Persia
May 5th, 2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Cyrus.. you fight the good fight.

Not that it helps you (HERE) to get compliments from an atheist like me but your actions far more resemble the sort of thing Jesus promoted than any of the hate filled types you argue with here.


Thanks! :D

When i discuss with people, i dont care about labels (atheist, christian, or sionist) until a person keeps it in decent level, and doesnt fall into name-calling, blood-lusting, or nonsense talk. Even as atheist, you are human as everyone is, and as long as you aren't homo i don't stone you :crackup: j/k :p

One Eyed Jack
May 5th, 2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Jack,

So who is right you or Lion.. that is the trouble with fundies you have a million interpretations of what is supposed to be LITERAL truth.. how are the rest of us supposed to get it.

Well, I've done a little research on this issue, and this is what I've come up with so far. According to my NIV Study Bible, the phrase "cut off from his people" can mean removal from the covenant people by direct divine judgement, execution, or banishment, depending on the situation.

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 06:09 PM
Thanks Jack,

BTW Can you point to where in the Bible Lion says Jesus declared homosexuals should be killed ?

One Eyed Jack
May 5th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Thanks Jack,

BTW Can you point to where in the Bible Lion says Jesus declared homosexuals should be killed ?

Sure -- Levitcus 20:13.


20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

My beliefs? Hard to tell. I'm still learning, still discovering God although i have been saved for 12 years, and had some Christian influences before that.

I'm Baptist minister. But it does not mean that my thinking is 100% baptist. Add to it that it's European baptism, not Southern Baptism of U.S., or kinda :chuckle:
Really? I know all Baptists don't believe alike, but I've been raised attending various different types of Baptists churches and none of them believed the way you do.

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Jack..

Hang on.. Leviticus is OT.. I want the reference JESUS himself (in the Gospels) made to killing homosexuals.

Jesus changed PLENTY of OT stuff.. the most notable was Turn the other cheek compared to an eye for an eye !

So saying Jesus said live by OT laws is not good enough.

Turbo
May 5th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Flipper

They're not big on "presumed innocence until found guilty." You are a liar.

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
If Dread Helm is 12 years Old I AM God ! actually I am 12 and you aren't God. NEWSFLASH!


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
He is a pathetic bigoted poor excuse for a fundy who thinks it is cool to say he is 12 so he can generate compliments for his lucidity…

Thou shalt not bear false witness Dread… So you're saying I'm a lyer. :think: I guess that means I'm a pathetic bigoted poor excuse for a fundy who thinks it is cool to say Aussie Thinker is going to hell.… :chuckle:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
BTW NO need to apologise for your comments about my Kid.. I just told you he was VOTED (by the other students) to be school captain. He REALLY is 12 Years Old this year and NOT effeminate at all.. he is excellent at school and a good sportsman. If you were really 12 I doubt you would stand a chance against him.. or any bigoted offspring you might produce.


No I really am sorry for saying that. It was a little rash. Please forgive me. :thumb:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Jack..

Hang on.. Leviticus is OT.. I want the reference JESUS himself (in the Gospels) made to killing homosexuals.

Jesus changed PLENTY of OT stuff.. the most notable was Turn the other cheek compared to an eye for an eye !

So saying Jesus said live by OT laws is not good enough.
Did Jesus Quote from anything BUT the Old Testament? He sure as heck didn't quote the NT! :chuckle: Did God go through Psychoanalasis in the intertestament Period? He is the Same yesterday, today and forever in his character. And no he didn't change the Law, he came to fufil the Law. :chuckle:

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

This is false witness.

It is like a father that beats his son so hard, that his kid limps for a week because he said, shut up.

You say, You shouldn't beat your kid like that.
The father says, "which should I do, beat my child because I love him and want to discipline him, or let him do whatever he wants?"

There is an option C. Discipline them, but within reason.
You can slap the hand of a two year old and make them cry. You don't need to take a rod and beat them half an inch from their life.

So what you set up is a lie - a false witness.

And you keep saying that you love homos, and want them to repent (before arresting them and executing them.)
Hollow words. No you should be just. Discipline them, but within reason. Homos should be executed. They didn't just "steal a candy bar", or "lie about who broke the vase."

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

What about adulterers? What about those who sex during menstruation period? About those who mock God? What about those who hit their parents?

The Law demands their execution too. I just wonder does Dread Helm demands the same? I've already dealt with this. Rightly divide the word of Truth. Figure it out.

ShadowMaid
May 5th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Okay, I see this thread has gone a long way since I left this morning.

ErinMarie, Lion: Thank you for your concern about our well being. I'm going to talk to Dad, have him read the thread, and he'll tell me whether I may continue. If not, I shall discontinue my posting.

ErinMarie: So far I'm agreeing with Dread and Christine, but as I said, I'm going to have Dad look at the thread and tell me.

ShadowMaid
May 5th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Though I would like to add something else.

Christine and Dread are doing a great job at answering people. I encourage them to keep up the good truthsmaking even if I won't be able to!! :thumb:

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Dread..

If you are 12 I look forward to when you grow up and get some real life experience and realise the hatred you are spewing is an absolute abomination to most normal humans.

You are presumably just parroting garbage spewed at you by your parents of minister etc.. I truly feel sorry for (if you are 12) as you obviously have some sort of a brain.

BTW If animals are homosexual (that’s a fact) then isn’t it a natural urge and therefore something God must have caused ?

If God HATES these things so much why doesn’t he just kill them himself.. he had no trouble taking out every man woman and child on the planet at least one occasion ??

And consider this…

What IF you are wrong and there is not God ?

Or your interpretation of what the Christian God wants is wrong ?

Do you THINK about that at all ?

Freak
May 5th, 2004, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Homos should be executed. :nono: Dread, apparently you didn't read this portion of Scripture...

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Dread, did Paul command these homosexuals to seek the death penalty? Seems to me Paul was giving us insight to a better way of dealing with homosexuality--the redemption of Christ...

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 08:18 PM
You know I tell my friends and family there are 12-16 yo’s Yanks spouting that homosexuals, adulterers and people who sleep with menstrual woman should be executed…

They cannot believe it.. they thought street kids were a problem.

They cannot believe children in a modern society can hold these vile views.

Personally I think your guardians should be arrested and charged with child abuse !

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

You know I tell my friends and family there are 12-16 yo’s Yanks spouting that homosexuals, adulterers and people who sleep with menstrual woman should be executed…
I never said anything about sleeping with women, and I didn't read it from the others.


They cannot believe it.. they thought street kids were a problem.

They cannot believe children in a modern society can hold these vile views.
People, including children, have believed this way for thousands of years.


Personally I think your guardians should be arrested and charged with child abuse !
:kookoo: No one forced us to believe this way. We read the Bible for ourselves, and discovered this to be true. And even if we learned this from our parents, they have a right to teach us whatever they want. It isn't a crime to believe this way, at least not in the states.

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 08:55 PM
Christine..



I never said anything about sleeping with women, and I didn't read it from the others.

I know you are young but surely you can read ?

Do you know just how MANY times it has been shown and said in this thread alone that sleeping with MENSTRUAL women (as I said) is a crime punishable by DEATH according to the OT.


No one forced us to believe this way. We read the Bible for ourselves, and discovered this to be true. And even if we learned this from our parents, they have a right to teach us whatever they want. It isn't a crime to believe this way, at least not in the states.

Don’t kid yourself now.

NO ONE hold views as vile as that without PLENTY of influence form their elders.

IF you came to these views unassisted then you are in need of psychiatric help and your parents can also be blamed for not getting that for you.

These are EXACTLY the sort of things we HATED Hitler and Stalin for.

Executing people for reasons THEY believe were for the greater good..

You can thank your own God that fringe nutcases like you will NEVER have any power on Earth.. the inquisition was the end of THAT !

One Eyed Jack
May 5th, 2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Jack..

Hang on.. Leviticus is OT..

Yep.


I want the reference JESUS himself (in the Gospels) made to killing homosexuals.

That is the reference Jesus Himself made to killing homosexuals, but it isn't in the Gospels. This reference He made to Moses.

Turbo
May 5th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Hang on.. Leviticus is OT.. I want the reference JESUS himself (in the Gospels) made to killing homosexuals.

Jesus changed PLENTY of OT stuff.. the most notable was Turn the other cheek compared to an eye for an eye !
No, Jesus was clarifying "OT stuff." Here's another example of Him doing just that:
Now it happened that He went through the grainfields on the Sabbath; and as they went His disciples began to pluck the heads of grain. And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they do what is not lawful on the Sabbath?"
But He said to them, "Have you never read what David did when he was in need and hungry, he and those with him: how he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the showbread, which is not lawful to eat except for the priests, and also gave some to those who were with him?"
And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath." - Mark 2:23-28

And the priest answered David and said, "There is no common bread on hand; but there is holy bread, if the young men have at least kept themselves from women."
Then David answered the priest, and said to him, "Truly, women have been kept from us about three days since I came out. And the vessels of the young men are holy, and the bread is in effect common, even though it was consecrated in the vessel this day."
So the priest gave him holy bread; for there was no bread there but the showbread which had been taken from before the LORD, in order to put hot bread in its place on the day when it was taken away. 1 Samuel 21:4-6

Jesus upheld the Old Testament Scriptures and its Law. He claimed that it was God's authoritative word. And since Jesus is God (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=477442#post477442), He not only endorsed, but also inspired the Old Testament.

Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me. " And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:44-45



Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." - John 8:58

Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, "What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"
And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Exodus 3:13-14



Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Matthew 22:29-32 (also Mark 12:24-26)

"But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'" Luke 20:37

Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn."
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!"
And he said, "Here I am."
Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God… Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.'" Exodus 3:1-6, 15



But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40 (also Mark 12:28-34; Luke 10:25-28)

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength." Deuteronomy 6:5

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17-18



Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
He said to Him, "Which ones?"
Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Exodus 20:12-16 (also Deuteronomy 5:16-20)

[Leviticus 19:17-18 referenced again]



Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God"-- then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

'These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, "Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man." Matthew 15:1-11 (also Mark 7:5-16)

[Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16 referenced again]

"And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Exodus 21:17 (see Deuteronomy 21:18-21 for more detail and clarification.)

Therefore the Lord said:
"Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men," Isaiah 29:13

ShadowMaid
May 5th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Aussie, Christine is a young lady now. She can decide for herself if given the choice.

Christine
May 5th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Aussie, Christine is a young lady now. She can decide for herself if given the choice.
Exactly. :thumb:

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 09:39 PM
Dread_Helm said:


OK, I'm Back. So, he was repentant, and the sin ultimately comes back against God, so can God not forgive sins?
I might ask you the same question. If the repentant sinner in my modified parable is repentant, then who are we to say that he still deserves death?
Doesn’t God’s forgiveness of sins extend to commuting physical executions as well as spiritual ones?
If they don’t, then the example of David and the example of the woman caught in adultery are examples of God’s injustice. He should have executed them both.

Isn’t this what you said:


The Sinner, but he should still pay the price for his actions, even if he repented and stopped his evil. The sinner, if he believes, will live in heaven, but should still be executed.
and..

God would be unjust to let this go unpunished.

Perhaps God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy and He will have compassion on whom He will have compassion, and we would do well to be gracious before we demand God’s wrath. For whatever measure we use in judging others is the measure we can expect God to use in judging us



God is able to for give it since she was repentant and all sins do come back to God.

Exactly, and God is not only able to release people of spiritual punishment but physical punishment as well and furthermore, He doesn’t need my permission or Mr. Enyarts permission or your permission to do so.

So remind me why the repentant homosexual should be killed again? If Jesus can forgive the sins of those who repent, why are we killing repentant sinners?


Now regarding the Sabbath you said:



It was for the law.

So was the command to punish homosexuality with death.



You've got to "rightly divide the word of truth".

As do you.




Murder, Sexual Immorality, are punishable with death….



So were Sabbath breaking and adultery.



they are not symbolic.

Please show me a verse that says that only the symbolic commandments were dealt with by Jesus on the cross, and that the legal penalties for non-symbolic commands are still in affect.

Grace and Peace

Turbo
May 5th, 2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Dread_Helm said:

Murder, Sexual Immorality, are punishable with death….

So were Sabbath breaking and adultery. Adultery is a form of (criminal) sexual immorality. :doh: :eek:

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Adultery is a form of (criminal) sexual immorality. :doh: :eek:

And adultery wasn't a form of criminal sexual immorality in the economy of the law?

Sabbath braking wasn’t a form of criminal cultic immorality in the economy of the law?

Again no one has been able to explain to me why a dispensationalist would carry a penalty against homosexuality given during the dispensation of Law into the current dispensation while leaving the penalties of Sabbath breaking and adultery behind.

I don't expect Dread to be able to do this since he is twelve, but I would expect you to be able to do this turbo.

So lets do what Bob Hill urges us to do and lets test things that differ.


So why in this dispensation, according to Pastor Hill, is the enmity of the Law of commandments contained in ordinances abolished in the flesh of Christ in regards to the penalty of Sabbath keeping but not in regards to the penalty of homosexuality?

What scriptural reason can you give me to accept that this OT ordinance is special?

Grace and Peace

JoyfulRook
May 5th, 2004, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Freak

:nono: Dread, apparently you didn't read this portion of Scripture...

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Dread, did Paul command these homosexuals to seek the death penalty? Seems to me Paul was giving us insight to a better way of dealing with homosexuality--the redemption of Christ...

But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. Amen, and then they should be executed.

Flipper
May 5th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Turbo:


You are a liar.

I would suggest you go back and listen to some of Bob Enyart's shows on Michael Jackson then. Or read some threads on the Michael Jackson topic.

They've got him on the gallows already. Which is really against the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty" as I don't recall the Jackson trial being concluded yet.

So cool your jets there, sparky.

BChristianK
May 5th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Amen, and then they should be executed.

And the one without sin should cast the first stone....

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 10:42 PM
BChristianK,

You make a GREAT point…

It shows how demented haters can point to ANYTHING they like in the Bible as justification for the object of their hatred.

They PICK and CHOOSE which “laws” they will abide and which can be dispensated.

They ALL break the Sabbath law and phulenty of others but that is OK cause they do it.. but the ‘homo’s.. they MUST be executed for their transgression.

Turbo & Jack,

There is NO way you can interpret Jesus condoning the execution of homosexuals. If you are using the fact that he often reiterated following OT law as the right thing to do you MUST say breaking the Sabbath is punishable by execution ?

Jesus himself broke OT law (or allowed it) and in some things was in TOTAL disagreement with OT law. Like the Turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye.

How could Jesus say turn the other cheek and promote execution for ANY crime.

Jesus was VERY clear your punishment would be in the next life unless you repented… he NEVER talks of punishment in this life !

You guys seem so hung up on the OT .. Jesus fundamental message was not the fire and brimstone insanity of Bob Enyart and his inquisitional Goons it was of love and tolerance and ..in respect to the treatment of other humans..

TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND
DO UNTO OTHERS..

I cannot see how you miss these two things as his expectations of human behaviour !

Shadowmaid and Christine,

Sadly neither of you exhibit anything like grown up behaviour. When you experience some more life hopefully you will gain compassion and tolerance.

BTW Do you think Homosexuality is a natural thing ? (Remember animals do it too).. If so wasn’t it “created” by God ?.. Why did he do that ?

Aussie Thinker
May 5th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Flipper,

Nice call…

And also..

Can you imagine if we did execute homosexuals.. We can’t even get it right executing multiple murderers etc.. can you imagine how many innocents (well they all are of course) would be going to their Death.

How many witnesses are going to say “Oh yeah he had sex with me.. execute him.. Oh hang on.. DOH” ..as they cart away the witness

Balder
May 6th, 2004, 12:12 AM
The Mean Blue Meme rears its ugly head.

All of you here who endorse the execution of homosexuals and other "sinners," you are pouring shame on the head of Christ, and disgrace upon his body. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

But I wonder if we can blame them, in a way. Modern Christianity tends to sweep some of the outrageous "commands" and acts in the Bible under the rug, arguing either that they were right for the time, or else just ignoring them -- but in both ways implicitly putting the stamp of "holiness" and infallibility on them. But when we face these modes of thought in the flesh, instead of safely in a book or at a safe historical distance, we recognize them for what they are.

Or so one hopes.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Christine

Really? I know all Baptists don't believe alike, but I've been raised attending various different types of Baptists churches and none of them believed the way you do.

How do i believe then what differs from them?

And btw, i'm not church, but person, so most probably i do not believe similary than any specifical CHURCH does :chuckle:

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

I've already dealt with this. Rightly divide the word of Truth. Figure it out.

Can you point out WHERE can i find your answer to the question?

Christine
May 6th, 2004, 06:37 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

How do i believe then what differs from them?

You're much more liberal than any of the Baptist churches I have ever attented, even just visiting. None of them ever would have taken such a liberal stance on sodomy.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

That is the reference Jesus Himself made to killing homosexuals, but it isn't in the Gospels. This reference He made to Moses.

LOL!

I actually waited since yesterday that someone makes this comment. Let's look into this further...

Matthew 5:31-32:
"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

According the logic Jack uses Jesus is referring to HIMSELF when He said the words written in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

It's like claiming that Cyrus once said: "If your wife is bad, you can divorce from her".
And now centuries later the same Cyrus comes up saying: "It has said: "If your wife is bad, you can divorce from her", but i say to you that everyone who divorces from his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress".

Sounds weird, uh?

Lemme give some more examples where Jesus is arguing with HIS OWN WORDS HE ONCE SAID TO MOSES:

Matthew 5:33-42:
"Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil. "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."

Christine
May 6th, 2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Shadowmaid and Christine,

Sadly neither of you exhibit anything like grown up behaviour. When you experience some more life hopefully you will gain compassion and tolerance.
Grownup behaviour? What could possibly be wrong with believing as Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and other prominent Bible characters did? BTW: Aussie Thinker, it's obious you don't want to debate. You just want to promote your beliefs, even if it means belittleing the other side. I will not be responding to you any more. I have better things to do with my time.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:46 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Amen, and then they should be executed.

I hate to say that, but Dread, it's just utter stupidity. You have no basis of this in NT, but all you have is hatred and phobia against homos in your heart what forbids them to see the similar human beings as you.

I'm sorry to say that, but you sould like Hitler when he referred to Jews. You bear the same spirit than he, what wants to divide people (ignoring that we all are sinning, and their sin is not worser than your sins), and send to gas chambers those you dislike.

I really hope that when you grow up you will keep in touch with Christians who will give you some sound teaching, that will root out all the hatred and false understanding about God and the Bible that is rooted in your heart by the devilish teachers and books you have heard and read.

I pray for you, my friend.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Christine

You're much more liberal than any of the Baptist churches I have ever attented, even just visiting. None of them ever would have taken such a liberal stance on sodomy.

1. Can you stop comparing me as person with church as organisation, please? :chuckle:
Compare me with other baptists who are persons, if you like.

2. I have personally met ministers of different Baptist churches who dont see homosexuality as sin today. Some of them were also from U.S. besides of Europe.

3. It's ok to call me liberal on matters is homosexuality sin, or not. But i hope you dont think that i'm liberal when defending the claim that homos are no more worthy of death than any other sinner is. I hope you can label my outrage against killing homos as a mark of mature and conservative christianity that appreciates the spirit of Christ's teachings.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by Christine

Grownup behaviour? What could possibly be wrong with believing as Jesus, Paul the Apostle, and other prominent Bible characters did? BTW: Aussie Thinker, it's obious you don't want to debate. You just want to promote your beliefs, even if it means belittleing the other side. I will not be responding to you any more. I have better things to do with my time.

Aussie in THIS THREAD HERE is not primarly promoting his beliefs, but his primary concern is to protect humanity from people who are eager to kill others while they are not better than those. I say this is the most God-like and love-motivated action ANYONE can make. I'm sorry that too many christians are instead of following Jesus in this point following the steps of devil who is KILLER HIMSELF.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 07:01 AM
Christine,

wasn't i asking from you before what is the sin of sodomy at all? If not, then i ask it. So far the people whom i asked it keep silence.

Dread Helm,

i dont remember you replying my message where i said that according to the logic you use Jesus was wrong when letting this adulterous women to go, while the Law demanded her punishment. I would like to hear your opinion on that.

Balder
May 6th, 2004, 01:13 PM
I've heard some people theorize that Jesus let the woman go on a technicality, rather than out of mercy. Apparently according to the Law a stoning can't take place unless there are witnesses to the event present, or unless the other "partner" is also present, or something like that.

Christine
May 6th, 2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

1. Can you stop comparing me as person with church as organisation, please? :chuckle:
Compare me with other baptists who are persons, if you like.
Sorry. I'm not, or if I am I don't mean too, be comparing you to an organization. I've known many GARBC (General Assocation of Regular Baptist Curches) Baptist parishoners, as well as FWB (Free-Will Baptists,of various conventions).


2. I have personally met ministers of different Baptist churches who dont see homosexuality as sin today. Some of them were also from U.S. besides of Europe.
Just because other Baptists agree with you, doesn't make what you believe correct.


3. It's ok to call me liberal on matters is homosexuality sin, or not.
Ok, you're a liberal when it comes to sodomy. :)

But i hope you dont think that i'm liberal when defending the claim that homos are no more worthy of death than any other sinner is. I hope you can label my outrage against killing homos as a mark of mature and conservative christianity that appreciates the spirit of Christ's teachings.
Are you saying that you believe sodomy is a sin, but not worthy of the death penalty? Are you against the death penalty entirely?

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

BChristianK,

You make a GREAT point…

It shows how demented haters can point to ANYTHING they like in the Bible as justification for the object of their hatred.

Sounds like you and Gluttons, :think:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
They PICK and CHOOSE which “laws” they will abide and which can be dispensated.
No we "rightly divide the word of truth". It's not morally wrong to pick up sticks on a certain day. That was a symbolic law, a parallel to how God rested on the seventh day. We under the Body, do not obey symbolic commandments, such as circumcision. Paul says if you circumcise to be accounted righous under the Law, you are cursed.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
They ALL break the Sabbath law and plenty of others but the ‘homo’s they MUST execute for their transgressions.
Yup. Homosexuality is MORALY wrong, not AMORAL like Symbolic Laws.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
There is NO way you can interpret Jesus condoning the execution of homosexuals. If you are using the fact that he often reiterated following OT law as the right thing to do you MUST say breaking the Sabbath is punishable by execution ? Was Jesus in the Body? NO! Jesus was even circumcised!

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Luke 2:27
And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law...

Jesus supported the law. So he would support these:

Leviticus 20:13
'If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.

Leviticus 20:15
'If there is a man who lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death; you shall also kill the animal.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Jesus himself broke OT law (or allowed it) and in some things was in TOTAL disagreement with OT law. Like the Turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye.

How could Jesus say turn the other cheek and promote execution for ANY crime.
Where did Jesus BREAK the OT law?
Jesus had the authority to forgive a crime such as the woman caught in Adultery:

John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
You guys seem so hung up on the OT .. Jesus fundamental message was not the fire and brimstone insanity of Bob Enyart and his inquisitional Goons it was of love and tolerance and ..in respect to the treatment of other humans..
Did God go through psychoanalasis in the intertestament period? Was he nicer in the NT? NO!!!! God's Character is the same "yesterday, today, and forever"! He would not give a MORAL law and then say, "Oh! That moral Law is wrong!". Then God would be evil for having condemed inocent Homos to death. But no, God did NOT repeal that law. God did NOT delegate the authority to Human Judges to show mercy. But God IS able to show mercy.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
Shadowmaid and Christine,

Sadly neither of you exhibit anything like grown up behaviour. When you experience some more life hopefully you will gain compassion and tolerance.

quote:
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
He (Dread Helm) is a pathetic bigoted poor excuse for a fundy who thinks it is cool to say he is 12 so he can generate compliments for his lucidity… " :p "

Oh, yah, and you're sayong THEY are acting Immature. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
BTW Do you think Homosexuality is a natural thing ? (Remember animals do it too).. If so wasn’t it “created” by God ?.. Why did he do that ?
Umm, give me data and recorded studies on that. :chuckle:

Christine
May 6th, 2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Aussie in THIS THREAD HERE is not primarly promoting his beliefs, but his primary concern is to protect humanity from people who are eager to kill others while they are not better than those.
Neither I nor others who share my beliefs on this matter are running around, taking the law into our own hands, killing sodomites.

I say this is the most God-like and love-motivated action ANYONE can make.
It's God-like for Aussie to tell me, a born-again Christian, that I'm condemned to hell, if such a place does exist?

I'm sorry that too many Christians are instead of following Jesus in this point following the steps of devil who is KILLER HIMSELF.
Are you against the death penalty intirely, or just for sodomites?

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
Dread Helm,

i dont remember you replying my message where i said that according to the logic you use Jesus was wrong when letting this adulterous women to go, while the Law demanded her punishment. I would like to hear your opinion on that.

Jesus had the authority to forgive a crime such as the woman caught in Adultery:

John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

He is God. She was repentent. God did NOT repeal that law. God did NOT delegate the authority to Human Judges to show mercy. But God IS able to show mercy. Does that answer your question satisfactorly?

Christine
May 6th, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Christine,

wasn't i asking from you before what is the sin of sodomy at all? If not, then i ask it. So far the people whom i asked it keep silence.

Well, we know it's a sin because it's condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. I'm not going to bother saying where, because others have already said in this thread. Why is it a sin? Well, the Bible says sex outside of marriage is wrong, and it also says that it's wrong to turn from the natural (man and woman) to the unnatural (2 men or 2 women). There are other reasons as well.

beanieboy
May 6th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Can you quote anywhere in the New Testament that someone should be stoned to death for ANY given sin?

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK
I don't expect Dread to be able to do this since he is twelve, but I would expect you to be able to do this turbo.
That's OK, I like the Challenge! :thumb:


Originally posted by BChristianK
Again no one has been able to explain to me why a dispensationalist would carry a penalty against homosexuality given during the dispensation of Law into the current dispensation while leaving the penalties of Sabbath breaking and adultery behind.

Jesus had the authority to forgive a crime such as the woman caught in Adultery and David's Sins:

John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.


God did NOT repeal that law. They were both Repentant. God did NOT delegate the authority to Human Judges to show mercy. But God IS able to show mercy.
(Not to mention that David and The Woman will probably get "more stripes" at Judgement Day)

Murder, Sexual Immorality, and Kidnapping, continue to be punishable with death, while things like the breaking of the Sabbath are not, because they are of the Law. These laws are AMORAL, not immoral, nor moral. They are not for us under the Body. I would really recommend reading the Plot. I am reading through it for the third time, and really think it would help you in your Christian walk.
Again, it is a pleasure to debate you. It makes me think about what I believe! :D :thumb:

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Can you quote anywhere in the New Testament that someone should be stoned to death for ANY given sin?


Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me.

Matthew 21:33
Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country... (after murdering the owner's son)
When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Luke 11:49
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and [some] of them they shall slay and persecute...

Romans 13:4
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Hebrews 7:1
For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him...

Jude 1:15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Balder

I've heard some people theorize that Jesus let the woman go on a technicality, rather than out of mercy. Apparently according to the Law a stoning can't take place unless there are witnesses to the event present, or unless the other "partner" is also present, or something like that.

Could be. But as there is NO record that Jesus ever actively supported death penalty for any sinner, we cannot claim that Jesus supports killing the homos.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Just because other Baptists agree with you, doesn't make what you believe correct.


Just because your Christian friends agree with you, doesn't make what you believe correct.



Are you saying that you believe sodomy is a sin, but not worthy of the death penalty? Are you against the death penalty entirely?

Firstly, i dont call it "sodomy" because it's misused word for homosexualism.

If i would believe that today God sees homosexualism as He saw it in NT, i would say - it's as much worthy of death penalty than ANY OTHER SIN. Read Romans 1 and you see there are lot of sins (and few of them you know very well personally, i believe) about what Paul says that those who do such things are worthy of death. Homosexualism is not anything exclusive. And to say it's extra bad sin compared to others in PURE HYPOCRACY and IGNORANCE.

But as i see homosexuality as socio-cultural thing, i do not believe it to be sin in OUR WORLD TODAY.

I'm not totally against death penalty. I believe it should be used against those who enjoy killing and raping and would gladly do it again when they would get free from jail. But as general, i do not support death penalty, until a person has not got second chance.

I believe that the ESSENCE of Gospel is mercy and forgiveness. If you cannot forgive the sinner, God will not forgive to You according to the Bible. If you are mercyless toward homos, God will be exactly as mercyless toward you in judgement day because you have your own sins too.

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
If you cannot forgive the sinner, God will not forgive to You according to the Bible. If you are mercyless toward homos, God will be exactly as mercyless toward you in judgement day because you have your own sins too. Actually that's works. That means that's for the Circumcision.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Jesus had the authority to forgive a crime such as the woman caught in Adultery:

John 5:27
and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

He is God. She was repentent. God did NOT repeal that law. God did NOT delegate the authority to Human Judges to show mercy. But God IS able to show mercy. Does that answer your question satisfactorly?

Yes, it does.

So you do not believe that repentent ex-homo should get forgiven too and his death penalty should be cancelled, because God is not delegating his authority to judges?

Or more correctly. As we live in society where NO COURT will condemn homosexuality with execution, what is your opinion about repentant ex-homos? Should they be executed anyway, even if God forgave them and judges doesnt judge this matter?

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Christine

Well, we know it's a sin because it's condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. I'm not going to bother saying where, because others have already said in this thread. Why is it a sin? Well, the Bible says sex outside of marriage is wrong, and it also says that it's wrong to turn from the natural (man and woman) to the unnatural (2 men or 2 women). There are other reasons as well.

You dont even know what the sin of Sodomy actually was and you keep mumbling about unnatural sex here.

Let me help you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it."

Where it says here ANYTHING about homosexuality?

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Actually that's works. That means that's for the Circumcision.

Sorry, but i didnt get what you said. Can you explain?

One Eyed Jack
May 6th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

You dont even know what the sin of Sodomy actually was and you keep mumbling about unnatural sex here.

Let me help you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it."

Where it says here ANYTHING about homosexuality?

It says they did abominable things before Him. Homosexuality is called an abomination in the Torah.

Cyrus of Persia
May 6th, 2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

It says they did abominable things before Him. Homosexuality is called an abomination in the Torah.

IF the word in hebrew gives us "homosexuality" it MIGHT be ONE of the sins. But it's in the end of the list where the MAJOR sins of Sodom are already mentioned.

I'm off to bed - 2.15 am here.

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Yes, it does.

So you do not believe that repentent ex-homo should get forgiven too and his death penalty should be cancelled, because God is not delegating his authority to judges?

:doh: Oh boy. OK, Let's start from the begining. Yes he is forgiven by God, BUT he still is executed. Only God could rightly have him not be executed (woman caught in Adultery, and David).

John 5:27
...and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Earthly Judges are instructed not to have mercy, (ie, not punish a convicted criminal) but to punish them (ie, execute homos).


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
Or more correctly. As we live in society where NO COURT will condemn homosexuality with execution, what is your opinion about repentant ex-homos? No Prob. If Homosexuality was not a crime and then was recriminalized, the law would not be carried out ex post facto.


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
Should they be executed anyway, even if God forgave them? COntinuing Homosexuals AFTER the law was given SHOULD be Executed. If they stop after the Law was given, then no.:)

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

You dont even know what the sin of Sodomy actually was and you keep mumbling about unnatural sex here.

Let me help you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50:
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, surfeit of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them, when I saw it."

Where it says here ANYTHING about homosexuality? Well, the public DID want the Angels to have unnatural relations with them, but Lot gave them his daughters instead (nice guy huh? :down: )

One Eyed Jack
May 6th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Lot offered his daughters to the Sodomites, but they refused, instead wanting to have sex with the men.

JoyfulRook
May 6th, 2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Lot offered his daughters to the Sodomites, but they refused, instead wanting to have sex with the men. :shocked: :freak:

adajos
May 6th, 2004, 08:11 PM
One-Eyed Jack:

You seem to be a reasonable, intelligent Christian. I'm not sure, but I think you might be an Enyartian. Tell me, do you buy into all this stuff about believing the US should reinstitute the death penatly for homosexuals? Do you also believe, as does Poly, Nineveh et al that calling them "queers", "fags", and "homos" is a just and proper thing to be doing?

I have been a conservative Christian all my life, at times amongst some very strict legalistic people, but never in my life have I heard Christians talk this way in a public setting. I find it appalling.

BTW, I'm sorry I even posted a question like this on this thread since it seems like every thread gets hijacked to be a "homosexual thread".

Aussie Thinker
May 6th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Adajos,

I hope Jack answers.. I have a feeling he is strong on these issues as SIN but would not be wanting execute people for these transgressions !

As far as the others go.. It seem the 3 main proponents for execution of “fags” are all children.

The most vehement is (supposedly) a 12 Year Old.. and I think he is just parroting what Paw says… I wouldn’t take much from that.. they will grow up one day and change their stupid childish opinions.

If they don’t then they are NEVER likely to end up influencing anyone outside of their own low IQ Church group (and their own poor children) anyway.

It is sad and sickening that Adults would corrupt young minds with such abominable opinions but then they do the same all over the world. When I think of what some cultures do to their Children I guess these backwater hicks and their inane rambling seem insignificant.

BTW.. I use all sorts of terms for everyone.. I am very politically incorrect and mean NO offence. It is quite Australian.. most “fags” here don’t care .. they call themselves worse names than I would !

adajos
May 6th, 2004, 10:10 PM
Aussie:

Well, I know quite well from reading other threads on TOL that many adults here espouse the same opinions about executing homosexuals. They purposely use rude terms to offend, and talk of relishing the damnation of the homosexuals while they get to watch from heaven apparently.

It's sad to see Christianity twisted in such a way. It's also sad to see such views passed on to children.

I find it incredibly ironic---here you and I have crossed swords before over atheism vs Christianity, and yet I am more on your side with this issue than theirs. I'm sure my reasons for my position are somewhat different than yours--but it is interesting how things sometimes work out isn't it?

We'll see what Jack says. If he says homosexuality is a sin, I'll agree. If he says the truth of human sin should not be glossed over by Christians, I'll agree. If we agree that barring accepting God's free gift of salvation through Christ, we are all justly damned, I'll agree.

But if he says, homos should be executed, they should be demeaned and purposely offended with derogatory terms, we should never associate with them, we should tell them that they make us puke, etc then I will vehemently disagree.

So it would be fair to say that I agree with many of their principles, but not the way they practice them.

Aussie Thinker
May 6th, 2004, 11:05 PM
Adajos,

I have a philosophical problem with the concept of God.

I think it is an interesting topic to argue about. It doesn’t define my life.

However I have a HUGE REAL problem with ANY one whose belief system extends to the elimination of others MERELY because do not adhere to the rules of their belief.

It is important to note that it is a RELIGIOUS law they are demanding execution for transgressing. NOT a secular or empathetic law like murder or rape etc..

They make the TALIBAN look like boy scouts !

It’s ironic but guys like Cyrus with their calm approach and clearly tolerant views make the whole concept of God and Jesus seem MUCH more palatable. If I was a crusading atheist I should LOVE these religious freaks as they turn more people away from religion than toward it. But I am not anti Christian at all.. In fact in many ways I think it may be good for society in general !

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
As far as the others go.. It seem the 3 main proponents for execution of “fags” are all children. Our sense of right and wrong has not been seared yet.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
The most vehement is (supposedly) a 12 Year Old.. and I think he is just parroting what Paw says… I wouldn’t take much from that.. they will grow up one day and change their stupid childish opinions. If "Paw's Parrot" is beating you in debate, I'm still beating you, whether I'm repeating what "Paw" said or not.
(And it's cool, you think I'm older or something, that must mean I'm doing good :think:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
If they don’t then they are NEVER likely to end up influencing anyone outside of their own low IQ Church group (and their own poor children) anyway. Well I've got you pretty riled.... :rolleyes: Anyway, petty insults don't help your losing position in our conversation.


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
It is sad and sickening that Adults would corrupt young minds with such abominable opinions but then they do the same all over the world. When I think of what some cultures do to their Children I guess these backwater hicks and their inane rambling seem insignificant. :darwinism: If your gonna insult me do it properly. It's a backwood hick, not a backwater hick. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
BTW.. I use all sorts of terms for everyone.. I am very politically incorrect and mean NO offence. It is quite Australian.. most “fags” here don’t care .. they call themselves worse names than I would ! I noticed: backwater hicks and A poor excuse for a bigoted fundy who thinks it's cool to put out he's 12. You need to watch that. :kookoo:
:rolleyes: :kookoo:

On Fire
May 7th, 2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker
It’s ironic but guys like Cyrus with their calm approach and clearly tolerant views make the whole concept of God and Jesus seem MUCH more palatable.

It's all about making things palatable for YOU, isn't it?

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Well, the public DID want the Angels to have unnatural relations with them, but Lot gave them his daughters instead (nice guy huh? :down: )

It was not usual homosexualism. What those men wanted to do with those angels were gang-rape, because they violated the customs of the city.

And if you look carefully it is not even directly noted by Hezekiel, but the root of evil of Sodom lies much more in other sins. I hope you can see it from the verses i gave you.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

If they don’t then they are NEVER likely to end up influencing anyone outside of their own low IQ Church group (and their own poor children) anyway.



I have liked the saying: "Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

So as they NEVER get the influence they want to, they still are pretty powerful to the minds of the people who have not used to think much with their brains. Or those who have already natural inclination to hate anything that is different (different race, nation, sex-orientation, etc).

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

It was not usual homosexualism. What those men wanted to do with those angels were gang-rape, :doh: It's called Homosexuality. :nono:

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
because they violated the customs of the city. What customs? :confused:

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
Or those who have already natural inclination to hate anything that is different (different race, nation, sex-orientation, etc). No, the race and nationality have nothing to do with morals. Homosexuality is morally wrong.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

:doh: It's called Homosexuality. :nono:


It's has as much to do with typical homosexuality than you have to do with spacecraft.

Did you read the Hesekiel already? Do you still want to get our focus away from the REAL SINS those people in Sodom held?



What customs? :confused:

As far as i remember it was custom of the city not to let foreigners into your house overnight, without letting others to know about that. My memory might fail me in specifics, but it was kinda such custom in that time.

The basic is that Lot failed against the customs of hospitality what was set in this town. Also Lot was a foreigner in this town too, so he probably did not knew it, or was not used to it.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

No, the race and nationality have nothing to do with morals. Homosexuality is morally wrong.

It's morally wrong to wish death for people who sin. Homosexuals are not exception.

But as you dont believe me anyway, then go ahead, because you feel you are doing the job of your god.

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

It's morally wrong to wish death for people who sin. Homosexuals are not exception.

But as you dont believe me anyway, then go ahead, because you feel you are doing the job of your god. I wish the Government would excute convicted criminals according to the Levitical Law. The World is under the Law.

.::.
.::.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

I wish the Government would excute convicted criminals according to the Levitical Law. The World is under the Law.

.::.
.::.

Welcome to the club of Christian Reconstructivists!


P.S. I just consulted with my wife over the matter. So i want to make comment over the difference of gang-rape and homosexuality. In some prisons some people practice raping of other male prisoner. It's similar to the gang-rape what we are talking about. In this rape not the one who uses violence is called as paederast, but the one who has been raped. The raper is not homo usually, so i dunno how much he himself enjoys his violental act. But in prison where hetero-sexual relations are forbidden it's pretty common.

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Welcome to the club of Christian Reconstructivists!


P.S. I just consulted with my wife over the matter. So i want to make comment over the difference of gang-rape and homosexuality. In some prisons some people practice raping of other male prisoner. It's similar to the gang-rape what we are talking about. In this rape not the one who uses violence is called as paederast, but the one who has been raped. The raper is not homo usually, so i dunno how much he himself enjoys his violental act. But in prison where hetero-sexual relations are forbidden it's pretty common. Anyone who practices Homosexual Sex should be executed. That is the definition of a Homo.

One Eyed Jack
May 7th, 2004, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

It was not usual homosexualism. What those men wanted to do with those angels were gang-rape, because they violated the customs of the city.

What customs did they violate? Looks to me like they just came to check the place out.


And if you look carefully it is not even directly noted by Hezekiel, but the root of evil of Sodom lies much more in other sins. I hope you can see it from the verses i gave you.

I think you've got that backwards, Cyrus. Sin isn't the root of evil -- evil is the root of sin.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Anyone who practices Homosexual Sex should be executed. That is the definition of a Homo.

Seems you have no knowledges about prisoners who do such things with their co-mates.

But as you are only 12 years old, you have time to learn more about it.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

What customs did they violate? Looks to me like they just came to check the place out.


I think my responses to Dread are enough to get som overview.




I think you've got that backwards, Cyrus. Sin isn't the root of evil -- evil is the root of sin.

It can be one way, or another.

Paul said that when the law came sin in him was activated. Sinning lead him to more evil.

But your point is right too: If a person is born evil, he does sin. But what about those who get evil because of the society and their practice of societal sins?

Seems to me like eggs and chickens. Or was it chickens and eggs? :chuckle:

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Seems you have no knowledges about prisoners who do such things with their co-mates.

But as you are only 12 years old, you have time to learn more about it. What does that have to do with what is right and wrong?

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 10:33 AM
The Chicken came first. God created it fully mature.

One Eyed Jack
May 7th, 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

I think my responses to Dread are enough to get som overview.

I read your response to Dread, but I don't buy the explanation you gave. Why would Lot need his neighbors' permission to have overnight guests, and how do you know that was the custom in Sodom?


It can be one way, or another.

Paul said that when the law came sin in him was activated. Sinning lead him to more evil.

But your point is right too: If a person is born evil, he does sin. But what about those who get evil because of the society and their practice of societal sins?

Last time I checked, everybody was born evil. Of course, some people are more evil than others...


Seems to me like eggs and chickens. Or was it chickens and eggs? :chuckle:

The chicken came first.

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

The Chicken came first. God created it fully mature.

Ever watched Chicken Run?

erinmarie
May 7th, 2004, 03:12 PM
Is the Chicken Run that claymation movie with Mel Gibson voicing the main character?

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I read your response to Dread, but I don't buy the explanation you gave. Why would Lot need his neighbors' permission to have overnight guests, and how do you know that was the custom in Sodom?


I dont mean to convince anyone. I just give out the explanations what i know. As i said, i have heard it and i'm not sure how correctly i recall it. It was some lecture i attended 2 years ago, so i do not have any reference to give atm. When i get the time, i might bother to look is there anything about it in web. But i think it would we waste of time, because you would not believe it anyway.




Last time I checked, everybody was born evil. Of course, some people are more evil than others...


It's all wrong. I didnt wanted it to be linguistic battle, so i edit my post and say: if you look at description of Hesekiel about the sin of Sodom you can see where their quilt was. I'm sorry that i wrote it so easily that it took us into the debate, what is too off the topic.



The chicken came first.

:chuckle:

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by erinmarie

Is the Chicken Run that claymation movie with Mel Gibson voicing the main character?

Yeah. Have you seen it? It's really worth of seeing, because it's really fun :thumb:

erinmarie
May 7th, 2004, 03:15 PM
I watched it with my daughter a couple months ago. She thought some of it was funny. I prefer Wallace and Gromit, ever see that?

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by erinmarie

I watched it with my daughter a couple months ago. She thought some of it was funny. I prefer Wallace and Gromit, ever see that?

Nope.

Actually i cannot say do i have normal sense of humor, or not, so i can only suggest those what i have enjoyed. Like Monthy Python, etc :cool:

erinmarie
May 7th, 2004, 04:25 PM
Yeah "This parrot is most certainly dead"
"No it's not"
haha
My dad was really into Monty Python when I was little. His favorite skit was the comfy chair, and the ministry of funny walks. :ha:

Cyrus of Persia
May 7th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by erinmarie

Yeah "This parrot is most certainly dead"
"No it's not"
haha
My dad was really into Monty Python when I was little. His favorite skit was the comfy chair, and the ministry of funny walks. :ha:

:darwinsm: :thumb:

JoyfulRook
May 7th, 2004, 10:24 PM
"A coconut? How do you get a coconut?"
"Maybe a swallow carried it!"
"Was that an english swallow, or an african swallow?"

Yah, that was funny. :darwinsm:

Duder
May 8th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Erinmarie -

"Cardinal Biggles? Poke him with the soft cusions!

"Confess! Confess!

"He must be made of stronger stuff. Get . . . THE COMFY CHAIR!"

Aussie Thinker
May 8th, 2004, 06:18 AM
Dread,

If you think you are getting the better of me in this debate then maybe you are only 12...lol.. cause only a child would think their argument for execution of homosexuals was winning !

I am loathe to give you any credit for your lucitidy if you are actually 12.. it is just sad that you don't use your talent for Goodness rather than EVIL...

BTW If you think I am insulting you .. you have even more to learn. I am insulting your parents and your views.. they are what has corrupted you.

BTW2 Backwater is JUST as common and expression as Backwoods (although your way of thinking is backWARDS.).. It clearly expresses that you come from somewhere where education and tolerance are in SHORT supply.

BTW3 I wonder what you thought of MP skit about the SPANISH INQUISITION.. they obviously detested your ridiculous way of thinking too.

Jack..

I notice you avoided Adajos question ?

Freak
May 8th, 2004, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

Amen, and then they should be executed. Dread, did Paul command these homosexuals to seek the death penalty? Seems to me Paul was giving us insight to a better way of dealing with homosexuality--the redemption of Christ...

Do you think the Gospel or the the death penalty is a more effective way of changing, in a redemptive manner, a man's behavior?

Freak
May 8th, 2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by BChristianK

And adultery wasn't a form of criminal sexual immorality in the economy of the law?

Sabbath braking wasn’t a form of criminal cultic immorality in the economy of the law?

Again no one has been able to explain to me why a dispensationalist would carry a penalty against homosexuality given during the dispensation of Law into the current dispensation while leaving the penalties of Sabbath breaking and adultery behind.

I don't expect Dread to be able to do this since he is twelve, but I would expect you to be able to do this turbo.

So lets do what Bob Hill urges us to do and lets test things that differ.


So why in this dispensation, according to Pastor Hill, is the enmity of the Law of commandments contained in ordinances abolished in the flesh of Christ in regards to the penalty of Sabbath keeping but not in regards to the penalty of homosexuality?

What scriptural reason can you give me to accept that this OT ordinance is special?

Grace and Peace :chuckle:

Freak
May 8th, 2004, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Dread Helm

(Not to mention that David and The Woman will probably get "more stripes" at Judgement Day) Huh? Is this a Enyart teaching?


Murder, Sexual Immorality, and Kidnapping, continue to be punishable with death, while things like the breaking of the Sabbath are not, because they are of the Law. The New Covenant does not support this. :down:




I would really recommend reading the Plot. I am reading through it for the third time, and really think it would help you in your Christian walk. I'd recommend reading the Bible over any plot materials. Stop boasting about man and boast about Jesus.

erinmarie
May 8th, 2004, 08:33 AM
I was trying to highjack this thread and turn it into a more fun, light-hearted thread. But once again I was thwarted!!!

Cyrus of Persia
May 8th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by erinmarie

I was trying to highjack this thread and turn it into a more fun, light-hearted thread. But once again I was thwarted!!!

:cry:

It's all buddha :D

erinmarie
May 8th, 2004, 09:12 AM
:ha: It's weekend and a beautiful day where I am. It's All Buddha sounds great to me!

BChristianK
May 8th, 2004, 04:46 PM
dread_Helm said:
If "Paw's Parrot" is beating you in debate, I'm still beating you, whether I'm repeating what "Paw" said or not.

Whether its paw or you, is it really about winning?

Grace and Peace

Turbo
May 8th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Flipper

Turbo:



I would suggest you go back and listen to some of Bob Enyart's shows on Michael Jackson then. Or read some threads on the Michael Jackson topic.

They've got him on the gallows already. Which is really against the spirit of "innocent until proven guilty" as I don't recall the Jackson trial being concluded yet. Or maybe he thinks that there is enough evidence to conclude that Michael Jackson is guilty.

Do you object when someone refers to OJ Simpson as a murderer?

For the record: Enyart has never said that criminals should be punished without being found guilty in a trial.

Turbo
May 8th, 2004, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Turbo & Jack,

There is NO way you can interpret Jesus condoning the execution of homosexuals. If you are using the fact that he often reiterated following OT law as the right thing to do you MUST say breaking the Sabbath is punishable by execution ?Jesus did endorse keeping the Sabbath, though under Roman occupation Israel did not have the authority to execute anyone. But the Sabbath laws were specifically for Israel as a symbol.

"Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: 'Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the LORD who sanctifies you.'" Exodus 31:13


Jesus himself broke OT law (or allowed it) and in some things was in TOTAL disagreement with OT law. Like the Turn the other cheek vs eye for an eye.No, as I already explained (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=518029#post518029), Jesus endorsed the Law and regarded the Old Testament Scriptures as God's revealed truth. He was only in disagreement with people who misapplied or misinterpretted God's Law.

For instance, "eye for an eye" is a principle the government is to follow in punishing criminals. Individual citizens do not have the authority to punish criminals (but they are to give place to wrath, which is to be carried out by the government). And they certainly aren't to seek to "get even" with others over every petty thing. We are to "turn the other cheek" to petty offenses (like being slapped backhandedly, for instance). Jesus was not abolishing the "eye for an eye" principle as written in the Old Testament. He was pointing out where it was being misapplied.


How could Jesus say turn the other cheek and promote execution for ANY crime.So do you think that Jesus abolished all criminal justice? Was He saying that the government was no longer to punish murderers in any way?


Jesus was VERY clear your punishment would be in the next life unless you repented… he NEVER talks of punishment in this life !Yes He did. Did you even take the time to read this post (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=518029#post518029)?


TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND
DO UNTO OTHERS..

I cannot see how you miss these two things as his expectations of human behaviour !I didn't. But what I would have others do unto me is not to leave me alone when I am in error.

Aussie Thinker
May 8th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Turbo,

So you would have them EXECUTE you for your "error".. even if YOU didn't think you were in error.

You HONESTLY think that is what the JESUS of your Bible would have done.

Turbo
May 9th, 2004, 07:42 AM
huh? :confused: I haven't executed anyone.

Aussie Thinker
May 9th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Didn't say you did.. I said you would HAVE them execute you ?

Aren't you agreeing that homosexuals should be executed ???

JoyfulRook
May 9th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by BChristianK

Whether its paw or you, is it really about winning?

Grace and Peace If I'm am right, yes.

JoyfulRook
May 9th, 2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Didn't say you did.. I said you would HAVE them execute you ?

Aren't you agreeing that homosexuals should be executed ??? I believe from what he's said, he thinks that homos should be executed.

Flipper
May 11th, 2004, 11:52 PM
Turbo:


Or maybe he thinks that there is enough evidence to conclude that Michael Jackson is guilty.

If so, I guess he and I just place different premiums on the value of a man's life. I'd rather actually hear what the evidence is (as opposed to what is reported in the press) before reaching conclusions.

Doubly so if the case were a capital one. Otherwise, we veer towards the mentality of the lynch mob. And that has a much less satisfactory history than that of our flawed trial system.