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*Acts9_12Out*
April 12th, 2004, 06:49 AM
In another thread, (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=502327#post502327) Freak stated that Noah could have rejected God's command to build the ark and still be saved. Freak said,


Noah was saved by God. He wasn't saved by anything he did. God was His Savior not his works. Under the Old Covenant and New Covenant people were saved by God. There is but One God.

Cyrus of Persia asked Freak,


So what if he would not have build the arc? Would he still been "saved"?

Freak replied,


Of course. Noah knew the Lord. The bible tells us...

The name of the LORD is a strong tower;
the righteous run to it and are safe.

In the arms of Jesus we are safe eternally.

Cyrus of Persia asked,


Noah get comission of building an ark from God. If he would not done that, would he still be saved because he simply believed in Lord, but did not obeyed?

Freak replied,


Yes, because the ark isn't His Savior but the Lord is. The Lord is God, the ark is a material object. Only God can save. Imagine that.

I plugged Freak's line of reasoning into the gospel for today. I asked,


Again, I ask, how would Noah's rejection of God's command be "faith" in God? Let's plug in your analogy for believers today. I think (hope?) you believe we are asked to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation (1 Cor 15:1-4). What if a person today "trusts alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? Could that person, like Noah in your example, reject what God commands us to do and still be saved? To be consistent, you are forced to say that a person could reject the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, but have "faith alone in God," and still be saved. Is this what you think Freak?

Get ready everyone! Here's how Freak responded!


Yes. God is a covenant keeping God. Noah had a covenant relationship with God and it is eternal.

Freak believes that a person can have "faith alone" in God, reject the death, burial and resurrection, and still be saved! Freak denies the clear teaching of the gospel for the body of Christ!


1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

I ask, can a person reject the death, burial and resurrection and still be saved? Freak answered, "YES!" :nono:

Repent and believe the gospel Freak...

--Jeremy

Granite
April 12th, 2004, 09:35 AM
From what I took from the thread, and the clarifications Freak made, he was referring to those saints in the Old Covenant. But, I may be misunderstanding this and I look forward to Freak's clarification.

smaller
April 12th, 2004, 10:11 AM
Romans 11:26-31 show ENEMIES of the Gospel both LOVED for "their fathers" sakes and ALL SAVED.

If these were enemies of the Gospel perhaps their "doctrines" were a little off as well eh?

Melody
April 12th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by smaller

Romans 11:26-31 show ENEMIES of the Gospel both LOVED for "their fathers" sakes and ALL SAVED.

If these were enemies of the Gospel perhaps their "doctrines" were a little off as well eh?

And you are taking this out of context.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.


This is a warning not to become as Israel and act presumptiosly and do as Israel and not continue in the faith. It is also a reminder that even though the Jews (natural Israel) are our enemies for our beliefs that They are still the apple of God's eye for their ancestors sake and God is more than willing to graft them back into the tree.

As for the "all of Israel shall be saved"

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The all of Israel which shall be saved are those that obtain the promise by faith and not by the keeping of the law.

elected4ever
April 12th, 2004, 12:49 PM
*Acts9_12Out*, It seems to me that you folks who wont to hang on to good works and law for salvation would go to any length to discredit the notion of salvation by grace through faith. It shows a real dependency on your practice of religion rather than on Christ for your acceptance.

Why did Noah build the ark? It was a working out of his faith. Noah believed God. It was not the building of the Ark that saved Noah. It was the fact that Noah believed God and was counted as righteous. If Noah had not built the ark he would still have been saved but his existence on earth would not be saved. God tells us things to preserve our physical life on earth not for salvation purposes.

Often words have duel meaning, Spiritual and physical. When we apply those words it is difficult at times to discern the usage of the word. This takes discernment. While we use to same words to describe a spiritual event then the same words will mean something totally different in the physical sense. For example the word life. We use the word life to describe physical life on earth. We are said to have life but God said that we are dead and must be given life. This can be confusing to call physical life death and we must receive life. Christ came to give us life from the dead. Salvation is the giving of this life that only comes from God.

Your assumption that Freak does not believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ is a bald faced lie and an attempt by you to discredit the messenger. I do not appreciate such actions. :e4e:

Cyrus of Persia
April 12th, 2004, 02:19 PM
elected4ever,

lemme quote to you my reply to Freak in his flaming thread against Acts, because this seems to reflect your ideas too.


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Ok, i think NOW i understood your point of "faith alone". It means i literally dont need to do anything what Lord wants, because i'm saved already and it's the Lord who saves me.

I can do whatever I want to and still make it to heaven.

Poor heatens, if they only knew that the only change they should make is to recieve the Lord. They dont even need to change their lives, because "Once saved, always saved" :chuckle:

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

From what I took from the thread, and the clarifications Freak made, he was referring to those saints in the Old Covenant. But, I may be misunderstanding this and I look forward to Freak's clarification. :up:

Jeremy needs to stop the drama queen act. His implying that I reject the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is downright silly. I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation.

Now back to the questions...

Do you, Jeremy, believe under the Old Covenant people were saved by faith in God or faith in God and good works?

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

*Acts9_12Out*, It seems to me that you folks who wont to hang on to good works and law for salvation would go to any length to discredit the notion of salvation by grace through faith. It shows a real dependency on your practice of religion rather than on Christ for your acceptance. I hope that Jeremy sees this.


Your assumption that Freak does not believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ is a bald faced lie and an attempt by you to discredit the messenger. I do not appreciate such actions. :e4e: :thumb: Thanks my brother. Keep up the good fight for Jesus!

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by elected4ever

*Acts9_12Out*, It seems to me that you folks who wont to hang on to good works and law for salvation would go to any length to discredit the notion of salvation by grace through faith. It shows a real dependency on your practice of religion rather than on Christ for your acceptance. Did you even read any of BRVIII? In are in gross error regarding what Jeremy teaches and believes.

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Did you even read any of BRVIII? In are in gross error regarding what Jeremy teaches and believes. Jeremy, stated:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

:crackup: Keep up with the program. Can you do that? Please?

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Freak,
True of False: Jeremy teaches that uncircumcision believers must do good works and keep the law in order to be saved.

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Freak,
True of False: Jeremy teaches that uncircumcision believers must do good works and keep the law in order to be saved.

:sigh: :sigh: :sigh:

Jeremy, stated:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

According to Jeremy it doesn't matter if you're under the Old or New Covenants, faith isn't enough.
:down:

Let me ask you:

Do you believe Old Covenants saints were required to perform good works, keep comandments to attain salvation?

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Was that a "True" or a "False"?

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Was that a "True" or a "False"? This is what Jeremy believes:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

...come on Turbo use that mind God has given you.

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Why is it so hard for you to answer "True" or "False"?

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Why is it so hard for you to answer "True" or "False"?

This is what Jeremy believes, Turbo, the answer is right in front of you:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

We know this is in error because of this truth statement by the apostle Paul:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Lion
April 12th, 2004, 04:14 PM
Freak, come on now, get real, please.

Our faith is nothing more than our belief in God as we see clearly in;
Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
And even Satan and the Demons believe in God, as we see in;.
James 2:19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe ó and tremble!
But they arenít saved. They even believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord, but they arenít saved. No, it is by doing what God demands of us that allows us to receive His grace. In our dispensation He demands that we accept His great gift and then it is given to us and that is all. For Noah he had to build the ark, and probably other things as well.

Judas followed the Lord at the beginning, and did as he was commanded. If he had died in that state I have no doubt he would have gone to heaven. But he fell away and went to hell.

Itís blaringly obvious. Quit resisting. Resistance is futile.

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Freak,
True of False: Jeremy teaches that uncircumcision believers must do good works and keep the law in order to be saved. So, "False"? Freak?

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Lion

For Noah he had to build the ark, and probably other things as well. In the Old Covenant were good works considered Savior or was God considered as Savior?


Judas followed the Lord at the beginning, and did as he was commanded. If he had died in that state I have no doubt he would have gone to heaven. But he fell away and went to hell. I can't comment on Judas for only God knows His eternal state. But I do know this:

Jeremy stated: "In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough." Let's test what he believes to the Word of God:

The apostle Paul writes, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Looks like justification is by faith alone. Let's move on...

However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works.

We see again it is by faith alone one is counted righteous. Moving on...

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

By faith alone we receive the Holy Spirit (salvation).

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- not by works, so that no one can boast.

Faith alone in God is what saves a person. In fact, it's always been by faith...

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

What part of "no one" are you having trouble with?


Itís blaringly obvious. Quit resisting. Resistance is futile. Please Lion answer the following questions so that we might know where you stand on this issue:

Do you believe those under the Old Covenant were saved by faith in God or faith along with good works?

How many good works did it take for those under the Law to attain salvation?

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

So, "False"? Freak? I've chosen to move on to Lion...since you're not putting on your thinking cap. :chuckle:

Turbo
April 12th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Freak

In the Old Covenant were good works considered Savior or was God considered as Savior? The Straw Man marches on.

Cyrus of Persia
April 12th, 2004, 04:46 PM
So as i can conclude from no reply from Freak to my question is:

Freak who believes in "faith only" doctrine, embaraces also the doctrine "once saved, always saved". Not that bad choice, but i hoped he will clearly admits it himself, but as he didnt replied, i think it's my responsibility to point it out.

Lion
April 12th, 2004, 05:03 PM
In the Old Covenant were good works considered Savior or was God considered as Savior?


UmmmmÖ the Savior hadnít come on scene yet. He was still about two thousand years from coming into the picture. So Noah, like everyone else pre-Christ went to Abrahamís Bosom, a sanctuary in Hell where there was no suffering but where they were not with God yet. So what does that have to do with this?

I can't comment on Judas for only God knows His eternal state. But I do know this:Thatís not true because you have already stated that once a person has known the Lord he is eternally sealed. The Bible states that that all the apostles believed in the Lord, that includes Judas, so do you believe he is in heaven?


Jeremy stated: "In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough." Let's test what he believes to the Word of God:

The apostle Paul writes, "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Looks like justification is by faith alone. Let's move on...
No, letís not move on just yet. I have already showed you the Bibleís definition of what faith is. It is our belief in God. It is the substance in what we hope for, the evidence of things not seen.

And I have shown you even the demons have faith so why arenít they saved? Because they did not do as God commanded them. They broke His commandment. God commands us to accept His gift. If we refuse, we die. If we accept we live.

You have asked to answer your questions but you just run away from every issue I brought up.

I will answer you anyway.


Please Lion answer the following questions so that we might know where you stand on this issue:

Do you believe those under the Old Covenant were saved by faith in God or faith along with good works?

How many good works did it take for those under the Law to attain salvation?
Faith is the belief in what God has told them as I have proven already. God told them that for them to receive His grace, they must believe and do good works.

They had to follow the law from the time they reached the age of accountability (20) until, their death.

Freak
April 12th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Lion

UmmmmÖ the Savior hadnít come on scene yet. He was still about two thousand years from coming into the picture. Let's test Lion's theory to objective truth--Holy Scripture...

Lion claims the Savior "hadn't come on the scene" during the Old Covenant...hmmmm...

2 Samuel 22 declares:

"The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

1 Chronicles 16 declares:

Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good;
his love endures forever.
Cry out, "Save us, O God our Savior;
gather us and deliver us from the nations,
that we may give thanks to your holy name,
that we may glory in your praise."

Psalm 18 declares:

They all lose heart;
they come trembling from their strongholds.
The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God my Savior!

Isaiah 43 declares:

When you pass through the waters,
I will be with you;
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not sweep over you.
When you walk through the fire,
you will not be burned;
the flames will not set you ablaze.
For I am the LORD , your God,
the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;

Isaiah 43

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD ,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD ,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Lion, please note the bold. FYI.


The Bible states that that all the apostles believed in the Lord, that includes Judas, so do you believe he is in heaven?

Jesus once said: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Whoever believes Christ will never die. That is the truth. Stop being nicer then God and embrace the teachings of Jesus.


Faith is the belief in what God has told them as I have proven already. God told them that for them to receive His grace, they must believe and do good works.

How many good works, Lion? What does Paul say:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

What part of "no one" are you having trouble with?


They had to follow the law from the time they reached the age of accountability (20) until, their death. Wacky theology.

The Scripture teaches no one is justified before God by the law. Do you believe this or not?

GodsfreeWill
April 13th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Freak

This is what Jeremy believes, Turbo, the answer is right in front of you:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

We know this is in error because of this truth statement by the apostle Paul:
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."


Freak,

If you took time to read his posts, his point was simply this...Faith alone is not enough, you must clarify and define what your faith is in. If I have faith that we've been to the moon, I'm not saved, but rather if I have faith in what God has asked me to have faith in, Christ's DBR, I'm saved. I didn't think this was that hard to see. Read the bold part above, as you've obvisouly skipped over it time and time again.


BTW, don't you find it interesting that Paul doesn't say no one WAS justified by the law, but rather no one IS justified by the law? Seems to be in direct line with Jeremy's belief that the body of Christ is justified by faith in Jesus DBR only. Your point is moot.

GodsfreeWill
April 13th, 2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Freak

How many good works, Lion? What does Paul say:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

What part of "no one" are you having trouble with?



No freak, the question is, What part of IS are you having trouble with? Paul doesn't talk about anyone prior to the body of Christ, he's speaking about the body of Christ and no one disgrees with you that the body of Christ is NOT justified by the law. Get some decent arguments.

*Acts9_12Out*
April 13th, 2004, 01:32 AM
elected4ever,

You haven't been following too closely have you? :confused:


Originally posted by elected4ever

*Acts9_12Out*, It seems to me that you folks who wont to hang on to good works and law for salvation would go to any length to discredit the notion of salvation by grace through faith. It shows a real dependency on your practice of religion rather than on Christ for your acceptance.

Why do you think I started this thread? It's because I do believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for my salvation. Don't you read? You continue,


Why did Noah build the ark? It was a working out of his faith. Noah believed God. It was not the building of the Ark that saved Noah. It was the fact that Noah believed God and was counted as righteous.

This is exactly what I've been saying! Notice, Freak did not quote this portion of your comments. Why not? Because he disagrees with you! Freak does not believe that Noah built the ark as the way to show he had faith in God. Next, you backpeddle and say,


If Noah had not built the ark he would still have been saved but his existence on earth would not be saved. God tells us things to preserve our physical life on earth not for salvation purposes.

So, you agree with Freak that Noah could have rejected God's commandment to build the ark and still be saved? By your logic, if Noah would have rejected God's command, and died in the flood physically, there would have been only 8 people in heaven with God... Unbelievable...


Often words have duel meaning, Spiritual and physical. When we apply those words it is difficult at times to discern the usage of the word. This takes discernment. While we use to same words to describe a spiritual event then the same words will mean something totally different in the physical sense. For example the word life. We use the word life to describe physical life on earth. We are said to have life but God said that we are dead and must be given life. This can be confusing to call physical life death and we must receive life. Christ came to give us life from the dead. Salvation is the giving of this life that only comes from God.

No one disagrees that God alone grants salvation. The discussion here is whether or not man must do what God asks in order to receive salvation. You seem to be on Freak's side and say, "No!"


Your assumption that Freak does not believe in the death burial and resurrection of Christ is a bald faced lie and an attempt by you to discredit the messenger. I do not appreciate such actions. :e4e:

Assumption? I quoted Freak! Freak himself stated that a person could reject the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and still be saved! Freak argued that as long as a person "has faith in God," nothing else matters. I argue that man is required to show faith today by believing in the death, burial and resurrection. Feel free to re-read the opening post in this thread. You call me a liar, but fail to recognize that I quoted exactly what Freak said.

Let me ask you elected... If Noah could reject God's good news for him (build an ark for the saving of your household - Heb 11:7), ans still be saved, can a person today reject our good news and still be saved? If a person "has faith alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, can that person still be saved? To be consistent, you are forced to echo Freak's response to the same question with a resounding, "YES!"

Try to keep up...

--Jeremy

*Acts9_12Out*
April 13th, 2004, 02:04 AM
Freak,

You talk out of both sides of your face. I asked you a specific question. I asked if a person "who had faith alone in God," but rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Christ could be saved. You answered, "YES!" Now, you do a 180 and say,


His implying that I reject the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is downright silly. I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation.

Then why are we still discussing? Why do you answer differently now? If a person must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, then you agree with me that a person must "do something" besides "having faith alone" in God! So, which is it Freak? You say,


Now back to the questions...

Do you, Jeremy, believe under the Old Covenant people were saved by faith in God or faith in God and good works?

As Lion has already stated, OT Saints were saved by showing that they had faith by doing what God asked. "Faith alone" was not enough. As Lion rightly noted, "even the demons believe" but are not saved. The demons had "faith alone," but rejected God's commands for them. You just stated that a person today must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, If this is the case, then you agree with me. You continue,


Originally posted by Freak

Jeremy, stated:

Freak & Jerry,
Circumcision believers were asked to show that they had faith by keeping the law. Body of Christ members are asked to show faith by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In both instances, "faith alone" is not enough, but rather, showing faith in the way God asks is what counts.

Notice the part in blue Freak. Your comments above show that you agree with me. A person must show faith in the way God asks. You agreed when you said, I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation. You continue,


According to Jeremy it doesn't matter if you're under the Old or New Covenants, faith isn't enough.

That's a lie. You fail to respond to the second half of my quote. You agree that man must show faith in the way God asks. God asks us to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. First you said a person did not have to believe this, but now say you embrace and preach it. :confused: You continue,


Let me ask you:

Do you believe Old Covenants saints were required to perform good works, keep comandments to attain salvation?

Is this really that difficult Freak? Just as we are called to show faith in the death, burial and resurrection, OT Saints were called to show faith by believing what God told them! You agree that we are required to follow God's command to trust in the death, burial and resurrection to attain salvation, but dent that OT Saints had to follow God's commands for them. Both groups are justified by faith, but we are called to show that faith in different ways. Please try to remain consistent Freak...

--Jeremy

Freak
April 13th, 2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Freak,

You talk out of both sides of your face. I asked you a specific question. I asked if a person "who had faith alone in God," but rejected the death, burial and resurrection of Christ could be saved. You answered, "YES!" Now, you do a 180 and say, This mindless section of yours merits no response from me.


Then why are we still discussing? Why do you answer differently now? If a person must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, then you agree with me that a person must "do something" besides "having faith alone" in God! So, which is it Freak? You say, I've already answered your questions. If you're so dense to where you're unable to keep up then perhaps I need to move on. We are justified through faith in Christ--the one who shed blood on a cross, who resurrected from the dead bodily. Under the Old Covenant people were justified by the same God. For there is but One God.


As Lion has already stated, OT Saints were saved by showing that they had faith by doing what God asked. "Faith alone" was not enough. This is clearly in error as Paul taught that..

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."


You agree that man must show faith in the way God asks. God asks us to believe in the death, burial and resurrection. First you said a person did not have to believe this, but now say you embrace and preach it. I preach the gospel because I'm saved not in order to be saved, you filthy deceiver.

Homework for Jeremy:

In light of this truth...

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

Were the Old Covenant saints saved through the keeping of the Law?

Lion
April 13th, 2004, 06:00 AM
You know Freak, sometimes you make me ashamed of you. You know exactly what we are saying but are afraid to admit the truth because you canít refute the truth.

You try and twist what we say, then refuse to answer any questions, then try and baffle everyone with masses of Bible verses that either are irrelevant to the question at hand, or that are completely taken out of context.

Examples, in almost all of the verses you quoted from the Old Testament about God being Israelís Savior, which is exactly what it means. Israelís Savior! He saved them from Egypt, from the Giants, from their enemies, from armies, etc. etc. etc. None of the Old Testament saints went to heaven, except for two, until Christ paid their price on the cross. You know that to be true, so stop trying to obfuscate.

In response to my question about Judas and heaven, you obfuscated again by asking a question instead of answering. Why donít you answer? Are you afraid? Afraid of what? The truth?

And in response to my answer about how many good works the apostles were required to do (I answered they had to keep the whole law), you ignored it and said again;
How many good works, Lion? What does Paul say: Well, duh! We are not in the dispensation of faith/works, we and Paul are in the dispensation of grace.

Was my answer about this to your question wrong? If so state your objection. Or are you incapable of even forming an answer to it?

Shame shame shame.
:(

elected4ever
April 13th, 2004, 07:27 AM
Well folks, I have a bit of news for all.

1. You can believe in the death the burial and resurrection of Jesus and still be lost as a goose in a hail storm.

2. You can do good works all day every day and still be lost.

3.You can perform the works of the law and still be lost.

4. You can be of the highest moral character and still be lost.

This is also true

1.You can believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and be saved.

2 You can do good works and be saved.

3.You can do works of the law and be saved.

4.You can be of the highest moral character and be saved.

The fact is that it does not matter what you and I do in the flesh that determines whether or not we are saved. It is what God does that determines whether or not we are saved.

Jesus said that we should not marvel that He has told us that we must be born again. How is one born again? God actually puts His seed in us and we are born of God. The truth is that we remain flesh and blood or we become the children of God by His action alone and not our own.

At what point in your human existence do you cease to be your father's child? Never. Jesus said that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit. We know that we cannot go back and be reborn of our earthly parents so the, being born again, is not a thing of the flesh and is therefore a spiritual reality.

It is that spirit that is of God that is born again. It is that spirit that is born of God that quickens the flesh that it may do the will and gives the wont to do God's good pleasure. It is the spirit that has been born of God that cannot sin and is of God. Once the spirit has been born of God it cannot be anything less than God Himself and what God has done no man can undo. In fact God Himself cannot undo what He has done. Once He has made us His child we remain His child and have overcome the world.

Our human prospective of reality is not the reality of God. We need to stop looking at ourselves through the human eyes and see what God has done to us and in us. This veil of flesh conceals the glory that is us and one day that glory will be reveled.We do not know what we shall look like but this I do know we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.:e4e:

Jerry Shugart
April 13th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Lion
Judas followed the Lord at the beginning, and did as he was commanded. If he had died in that state I have no doubt he would have gone to heaven. But he fell away and went to hell.

Lion,

Once again we see those who believe that works were required for salvation bring up Judas.Lion,what gives you the idea that Judas was ever saved and fell away?

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
April 13th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Lion
You know Freak, sometimes you make me ashamed of you.
Lion,

No matter how many times the Jews were told that if they simply "believed" in Christ that they were assured of eternal salvation you just will not believe what He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

These words have no meaning at all for you.

I am ashamed of you for saying that you believe in the Lord but then turn around and deny what He clearly said.

And in response to my answer about how many good works the apostles were required to do (I answered they had to keep the whole law), you ignored it and said again; Well, duh! We are not in the dispensation of faith/works, we and Paul are in the dispensation of grace.
Again,you say that that the Jews must keep the whole law in order to be justified in the sight of God despite the fact that Paul said that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,it is evident"(Gal.3:11).

When the Jews asked the Lord what "works" they needed to do so that they could do the works of God,He replied:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"(Jn.6:29).

Why can't you believe the Lord Jesus?You continue to put your "doctrines" invented by men over what the LOrd Jesus Himself said.Shame,shame shame!!!

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"(Jn.3:16).

Not only do you deny that "faith" is not enough for the Jews,you also deny that those who believe in their heart have everlasting life but instead contradict the Scriptures that say that they shall never perish!

Why do you put your ideas above what the Lord Jesus Himself so clearly says?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
April 13th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Lion
Examples, in almost all of the verses you quoted from the Old Testament about God being Israelís Savior, which is exactly what it means. Israelís Savior! You got to be kidding. The Scripture states clearly that God is the Savior. Period. There is no other Savior. He is Savior of all those who believe in Him regardless if they're from Israel or not.

Isaiah 43

"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD ,
"and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
I, even I, am the LORD ,
and apart from me there is no savior.

Lion, please note the bold. FYI.


In response to my question about Judas and heaven, you obfuscated again What a joke. I simply answered your question by stating I don't know Judas, so I don't know about his salvation.



And in response to my answer about how many good works the apostles were required to do (I answered they had to keep the whole law),

Let's test Lion's theories about the Bible to God's Word:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

No one means no one. No one is found righteous through the keeping of the law, Lion. Period. No one. It doesn't matter if you lived under the Old or New Covenants. No one found righteousness through the Law.


Was my answer about this to your question wrong? If so state your objection. Let's make this simple for the Lionman.

Under the Old Covenant where did righteousness come from? A person or the Law?

Freak
April 13th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Lion,

No matter how many times the Jews were told that if they simply "believed" in Christ that they were assured of eternal salvation you just will not believe what He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

These words have no meaning at all for you.

I am ashamed of you for saying that you believe in the Lord but then turn around and deny what He clearly said.

Again,you say that that the Jews must keep the whole law in order to be justified in the sight of God despite the fact that Paul said that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,it is evident"(Gal.3:11).

When the Jews asked the Lord what "works" they needed to do so that they could do the works of God,He replied:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"(Jn.6:29).

Why can't you believe the Lord Jesus?You continue to put your "doctrines" invented by men over what the LOrd Jesus Himself said.Shame,shame shame!!!

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"(Jn.3:16).

Not only do you deny that "faith" is not enough for the Jews,you also deny that those who believe in their heart have everlasting life but instead contradict the Scriptures that say that they shall never perish!

Why do you put your ideas above what the Lord Jesus Himself so clearly says?

In His grace,--Jerry :up: If Lion would just put away the plot materials and study God's Word he would see the clear words of Jesus who said: I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Lighthouse
April 13th, 2004, 08:09 PM
If we trust and believe in God we will do as He says. If we don't do as He says, we don't trust and believe in Him. If we don't trust and believe in Him, we are not saved!

wantsdirection
April 15th, 2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

If we trust and believe in God we will do as He says. If we don't do as He says, we don't trust and believe in Him. If we don't trust and believe in Him, we are not saved!
wow, thats like a tounge twister! but it does make sense.

GodsfreeWill
April 16th, 2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Lion,

No matter how many times the Jews were told that if they simply "believed" in Christ that they were assured of eternal salvation you just will not believe what He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Jerry and freak are confused!! This verse talks about God and not Christ.


These words have no meaning at all for you.

I am ashamed of you for saying that you believe in the Lord but then turn around and deny what He clearly said.

John 5:24 says nothing of believing in Christ, let alone His death, burial and resurrection.


Again,you say that that the Jews must keep the whole law in order to be justified in the sight of God despite the fact that Paul said that "no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,it is evident"(Gal.3:11).

Notice the audience of Paul's statement, and the present tense of his statement. We all agree with you that no one IS justified byt he law as we, like Paul, are under the dispensation of grace.


When the Jews asked the Lord what "works" they needed to do so that they could do the works of God,He replied:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"(Jn.6:29).

Why can't you believe the Lord Jesus?You continue to put your "doctrines" invented by men over what the LOrd Jesus Himself said.Shame,shame shame!!!

No actually, shame on you. Once again, this verse speaks of God and not Christ.


"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"(Jn.3:16).

Not only do you deny that "faith" is not enough for the Jews,you also deny that those who believe in their heart have everlasting life but instead contradict the Scriptures that say that they shall never perish!

Why do you put your ideas above what the Lord Jesus Himself so clearly says?

In His grace,--Jerry

What Jerry and freak don't understand is the meaning of believe in Him that sent me, and believe in Me. Lighthouse was actually right on the money when stating that believing in God means that we do as He says. The most simplistic way to state the gospel in any dispensation is "Believe God." This would always bring you salvation. The problem which you guys don't seem to understand is that God has changed the way God has asked man to show faith, entailing that "believing in God" has actually meant different things. My question for you both is...

Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

...do you believe in Him?

Lion
April 16th, 2004, 02:56 PM
AWESOME!

Freak
April 16th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by doogieduff

Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

...do you believe in Him? And what is the commandment?

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ..."

Again, do you find righteousness in a person or the Law?

Jerry Shugart
April 16th, 2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by doogieduff
My question for you both is...

Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

...do you believe in Him?
doggieduff,

After the Lord Jesus told this to the rich man he left.Then the Lord Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.His disciples then asked Him:

"Who,then,can be saved?"

And the Lord Jesus answered,saying:

"With man this is impossible,but with God all things are possible"(Mt.19:26).

The Lord is saying that by law-keeping that no man is justified in the sight of God.And if life could be had by "the law" then Christ had died in vain:

"...for if righteousness come by the law,then Christ is dead in vain"(Gal.2:21).

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
April 16th, 2004, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by doogieduff
Jerry and freak are confused!! This verse talks about God and not Christ.
doggieduff,

It is you who are confused.The Lord Jesus Christ is God!!!

Does the Derby School of Theology teach that the Christ is not God?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
April 16th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

doggieduff,

It is you who are confused.The Lord Jesus Christ is God!!!

Does the Derby School of Theology teach that the Christ is not God?

In His grace,--Jerry :think: Good question and just think doogie is actually learning this stuff from Jeremy. :kookoo:

Freak
April 16th, 2004, 03:33 PM
doogie posted this:

Jerry and freak are confused!! This verse talks about God and not Christ.

Lion responds with this:



Originally posted by Lion

AWESOME!

:kookoo:

lionman, do you believe Jesus is God?

Jerry Shugart
April 16th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Earlier I said:

When the Jews asked the Lord what "works" they needed to do so that they could do the works of God,He replied:

"This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"(Jn.6:29).

Why can't you believe the Lord Jesus?You continue to put your "doctrines" invented by men over what the LOrd Jesus Himself said.Shame,shame shame!!!
The Lord Jesus is saying that the "work" that they should do is to believe "on Him Whom He hath sent"--They are to belive the Lord Jesus Christ Who was sent into the world.

But doggieduff says:

No actually, shame on you. Once again, this verse speaks of God and not Christ.
It was Christ who was sent into the world,and it is Christ Who they are to believe.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
April 16th, 2004, 04:17 PM
On another thread doggieduff displays his inability to understand the Scriptures.He said:

Jerry's BIGGEST problem is that he thinks "believing in Him" means believing in Jesus death, burial and resurrection. Well, it doesn't Jerry. No one outside of Paul teaches that, which is why you resort to him post after post.
Perhaps if doggieduff would actually read the Scriptures he would see that what he says is in error.The Apostle Peter spoke of the death,burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus on the day of Pentecost (read Acts2:24-32).

And here we see Peter telling the following to the people of Israel:

"Be it known unto you all,and to all the people of Israel,that by the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazerth,Whom ye crucified,Whom God raised from the dead..."(Acts4:10).

Oh,no,despite the fact that the death,burial and resurrection was preached to the Jews by Peter,doggieduff is under the spell of the Derby School of Theology and says that no one besides Paul preached that message.

Perhaps there is a shortage of Bibles at the Derby School of Theology and no one is able to read what the Scriptures actually say.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
April 16th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart


Perhaps there is a shortage of Bibles at the Derby School of Theology and no one is able to read what the Scriptures actually say.

In His grace,--Jerry But I hear there's a surplus of plot materials to read.

Freak
April 17th, 2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

On another thread doggieduff displays his inability to understand the Scriptures.He said:

Perhaps if doggieduff would actually read the Scriptures he would see that what he says is in error.The Apostle Peter spoke of the death,burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus on the day of Pentecost (read Acts2:24-32).

And here we see Peter telling the following to the people of Israel:

"Be it known unto you all,and to all the people of Israel,that by the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazerth,Whom ye crucified,Whom God raised from the dead..."(Acts4:10).

Oh,no,despite the fact that the death,burial and resurrection was preached to the Jews by Peter,doggieduff is under the spell of the Derby School of Theology and says that no one besides Paul preached that message.

Perhaps there is a shortage of Bibles at the Derby School of Theology and no one is able to read what the Scriptures actually say.

In His grace,--Jerry :up: :up: :up:

1Way
May 20th, 2004, 07:07 AM
Freak and Acts9_12Out

So for Freak, concerning belief in ďthe death burial and resurrection of Jesus ChristĒ, you can reject it and still be saved

you must believe it in order to be saved Of special note, I believe Acts9_12Out allows for salvation for people who are formally ignorant of the gospel message, i.e. there is allowance for salvation who do not understand or never formally heard the gospel message per say, and yet their faith in God may allow then salvation despite their ignorance. This case is especially applicable for the difficult issues of infant death, people with profound mental handicaps, as well as the few who simply may have never heard the good news message unto salvation. Not that this allowance answers all questions about how ignorant people and babies will be determined by God if they are saved or not, but that it seems apparent that there is some allowance for salvation for those who are ignorant.

That issue applies to this discussion by bringing to mind that Jeremy mentioned ďthe rejection ofĒ the gospel message, which implies he is strictly considering those who have had it presented to them, they presumably understand (the message) and willfully reject it in unbelief. A distinction that I think may prove helpful at some point.

Acts9_12Out
Please verify if my assumption of your view is to whatever extent accurate.

Freak
Please verify that you do or do not have a resolution for the apparent contraction, or simply answer the following two questions for clarification. If a person today "trusts alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, could that person be saved?

Or is it that you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation? Thanks in advance for your thoughtful respectful responses.

1Way
May 20th, 2004, 07:11 AM
Observations from this discussion.

Jeremy was very clear showing only consistent responses from Freak including the following summary question. (Acts9 said)
What if a person today "trusts alone in God," but rejects the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? Could that person, like Noah in your example, reject what God commands us to do and still be saved? And Freak answered (Freak said)
Yes. God is a covenant keeping God. Noah had a covenant relationship with God and it is eternal. Freak says you can reject
the death burial and resurrection
and still be saved.

To which Jeremy points out Godís requirements for manís response to the gospel message. (Acts9 said)
1 Corinthians 15
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, Oh what a tangled web we weave. (Freak said)
His implying that I reject the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is downright silly. I embrace it and preach it. I believe you must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation. Freak says You can not reject
the death burial and resurrection
and still be saved. (Acts9 said)
Then why are we still discussing? Why do you answer differently now? If a person must believe Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins and was bodily resurrected to attain salvation, then you agree with me that a person must "do something" besides "having faith alone" in God! So, which is it Freak? Directly quoting Acts9, Freak responded (Freak said)
(1) I've already answered your questions. If you're so dense to where you're unable to keep up then perhaps I need to move on. (2) We are justified through faith in Christ--the one who shed blood on a cross, who resurrected from the dead bodily. Under the Old Covenant people were justified by the same God. For there is but One God. (1) It was the first time Jeremy asked this particular line of questioning, and it was the first time Freak supposedly answered it, yet Freak tries to claim that all has already been answered.

(2) This supposed clarification does not even address the issue of contention and the contradiction of the necessity to accept (you must believe) (verses reject, you can reject) the gospel message of ďthe death burial and resurrection of Jesus ChristĒ for salvation.

1Way
June 3rd, 2004, 10:26 AM
So much time,,, the truth is hard to refute. :D