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Freak
April 6th, 2004, 09:12 PM
It may surprise you, with my rebukes of Enyart, but I agree with all of DBC's official doctrinal statement:

There is one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Through Him all things were made. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory. With His saints He will judge the living and the dead.

And His kingdom will have no end. There is one Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped. He has spoken through the prophets and through the Scriptures.

God established the Body of Christ into which the Holy Spirit baptizes every new believer. God offers salvation by grace through faith alone in the resurrected Christ.

The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many supernatural miracles.

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God.

God legislated morality out of love for His creation.

Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.

Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent.

One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers, and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.

Amen.

Way to go DBC!!!! :up:

What's your thoughts on their doctrinal statement?

Freak
April 6th, 2004, 09:18 PM
btw, their doctrinal statement can be found here: http://denverbiblechurch.org/docs/sof.html

Lucky
April 6th, 2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Freak

What's your thoughts on their doctrinal statement?
I've read it before and I didn't see anything I disagree with. I'm not big on SOFs though. So many of them are so much alike, but as you can see from all the divisions within the body of Christ, there's much more to a church's doctrine than what makes the SOF.

smaller
April 6th, 2004, 09:42 PM
Six days of God and six days of man are different.

The scriptures themselves do not say they are ALL the inspired Word of God. God's direct Words and the Words of Jesus Christ are direct WORDS OF GOD.

Paul admitted he spoke in part and in darkness. This places Paul's words as less than the Primary.

God wrote the law to THE LAWLESS. The lawless never had any intention of following the law, nor will they ever. The lawless are even LESS inclined to LOVE. (see all "believers" who would see others eternally tortured.)

The ONLY THING that counts is faith that works through love.

Most believers positions will quickly derail when it comes to understanding sin and judgment. The WAR starts the instant THE WORD comes to them.

They will judge THEMSELVES clean and OTHERS guilty. This is only further evidence that SIN indwells ALL. And they will use this FALSE JUDGMENT to condemn others for what is also in THEM and they will use this FALSE JUDGMENT to NOT LOVE because they are SLAVES of that which is IN THEM.

NO PERSON will have SINS accounted to them, nor will God TORTURE family, friends, babies, suicides, etc. He is NOT a divine Hitler nor does He take delight in BURNING PEOPLE in torture.

What a sicko world this is. So called "christians" epitomize this sickness or rather that which is in them. This is why Jesus called this a WICKED and EVIL generation.

You are all here CHILDREN OF GOD to PROVE LOVE. If you fail it is understandable.

Satan is quite an adversary. You are proof of it when you DO NOT LOVE.

BChristianK
April 6th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by smaller


[

NO PERSON will have SINS accounted to them, nor will God TORTURE family, friends, babies, suicides, etc. He is NOT a divine Hitler nor does He take delight in BURNING PEOPLE in torture.

What a sicko world this is. So called "christians" epitomize this sickness or rather that which is in them. This is why Jesus called this a WICKED and EVIL generation.

You are all here CHILDREN OF GOD to PROVE LOVE. If you fail it is understandable.

Satan is quite an adversary. You are proof of it when you DO NOT LOVE.

You are a one issue man Smaller, and unfortunately, you can't substantiate that one issue logically or biblically.

Here's an example of a debate on Smaller's one issue:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13428

Grace and Peace

Cyrus of Persia
April 7th, 2004, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Freak

The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt;


Talk it to the historists, archealogists, geologists. They probably can get big laugh about how ignorant people are. The Bible IS NOT AND NEVER BEEN MEANT by the authors to be scientifical book. It was meant to be book about who God is and what He has done.

I also dont think i need to go through all we all know that "day" in the bible can be translated also as "certain period", etc etc...




Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.


What about the men, who dont get chance to choose God by different reasons?




One day God will resurrect the dead, punish the unbelievers, and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.


About "unbelievers" read my question above. What about those "whom He has justified" and who keep killing their neighbours with hatred, lack of care, and heart full of condemnation?

BillyBob
April 7th, 2004, 06:05 AM
Originally posted by Freak

There is one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.


There is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,

Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man'. Besides, we are all 'Sons of God'.


eternally begotten of the Father, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.

Jesus said that we all could be his equal in our relationship with God. That is the 'Good News'.


Through Him all things were made.

There's a topic just waiting to be debated.


For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven: by the Holy Spirit He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.

:shut:


For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered death and was buried.

Maybe.


On the third day He rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Yes, a spiritual ressurection.


He will come again in glory. With His saints He will judge the living and the dead.

:rolleyes:


And His kingdom will have no end. There is one Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped. He has spoken through the prophets and through the Scriptures.

Does that include the Dahmapada?


God established the Body of Christ into which the Holy Spirit baptizes every new believer. God offers salvation by grace through faith alone in the resurrected Christ.

The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days;

Uh oh, 'Myth Alert!'


only eight people survived a global flood;

:darwinsm:


through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many supernatural miracles.

Define 'supernatural'?


The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God.

Yes, but written by men and are fallacious in many instances.


God legislated morality out of love for His creation.

Men who reject God will suffer eternal damnation.

Define 'Eternal damnation'?


Christ commands His followers to rebuke and to judge with righteous judgment and to forgive those who repent.

Oh boy, more fuel for righteous indignation. :doh:


One day God will resurrect the dead,

Yuck! That sound horrible. Besides, the libs keep claiming that the world is overpopulated as it is, now we're gonna add to it with a bunch of smelly corpses? There goes the neighborhood!


punish the unbelievers,

:rolleyes:


and reward those whom He has justified with the life of the world to come.

The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it.

smaller
April 7th, 2004, 08:47 AM
Love IS the only issue BcK. All else will WINK out.

cur_deus_homo
April 7th, 2004, 09:15 AM
I agree with much of it, namely the parts that simply restate what has already been codified in the ancient creeds of the church. The problem with this doctrinal statement and others like it is that it tacitly promotes the idea that each individual group of believers should have a doctrinal statement that defines what they or their leaders can ALL agree to or should agree to; i.e. the doctrinal statement becomes a rallying point when members of the group encounter others from different groups, Christian or otherwise. "This is what 'we' believe ... you believe something different. Now we must divide over the differences." This in turn feeds the mentality that one's church is living rightly because there is full agreement and thus unity within the group. This is not Christian unity, however, it is nothing more than the heard phenomenon applied to human social relations. If we all stick close to each other in a great big mass of Bible-believing people each one of us will be less likely to be "picked off" by Satan. This is not Christian unity, it sows fear and a false sense of security.

Turbo
April 7th, 2004, 09:28 AM
Cyrus of Persia,

Is Jesus God the Son?

billwald
April 7th, 2004, 09:32 AM
All such statements are for the purpose of excluding people. Years ago I worked for a guy . . . the only thig he ever said that I agreed with is "The purpose of a test is to flunk you."

okinrus
April 7th, 2004, 02:13 PM
I don't like the statement of faith because one could disagree with some points and remain entirely orthodox. Why is the number of days God creates the world any more important than the number of days someone was formed in the womb?



The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many supernatural miracles.

cur_deus_homo
April 7th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by okinrus

I don't like the statement of faith because one could disagree with some points and remain entirely orthodox. Why is the number of days God creates the world any more important than the number of days someone was formed in the womb?
Because the BIBLE says so! Don't you see? Don't you see? :rolleyes:

The Bible is our greatest statement of faith as Christians. Now let's get down to the work of what it "means" and then maybe we will see that analyzing individual church's statements of faith will be just a distraction.

Knight
April 7th, 2004, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.
BB... do you really believe that?

If so.... that would be the most idiotic worldview I have ever heard of! Far more stupid then raw atheism.

In other words... you are professing that there is an eternal God that existed and at some point during that existence a universe created itself out of noting by sheer chance having nothing to do with this eternal God.

And then this universe evolved various systems and structures and eventually life by sheer chance. And then finally this life came aware of this eternal God even though he had nothing to do with their existence.

This is all utterly ridiculous and embarrassing.

Fellowship week is fast approaching so let me get this off my chest now....

You are an idiot.

BillyBob
April 7th, 2004, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Knight

BB... do you really believe that?

[Originally posted by BillyBob
Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.]

If so.... that would be the most idiotic worldview I have ever heard of! Far more stupid then raw atheism.

Why is it stupid? It is quite possible that God created nothing at all. Even TOL's most celebrated Christian will tell you that God is Spirit only. If he is physical, where does he live?


In other words... you are professing that there is an eternal God that existed and at some point during that existence a universe created itself out of noting by sheer chance having nothing to do with this eternal God.

Sure, it seems quite plausible. After all, how much force can a spirit have on things physical? And what is the difference whether I am right or you are right? It doesn't change anything in our lives.


And then this universe evolved various systems and structures and eventually life by sheer chance. And then finally this life came aware of this eternal God even though he had nothing to do with their existence.

You've been reading the 'Origins' threads again, haven't you?


This is all utterly ridiculous and embarrassing.

I didn't realize you were so easily embarrassed.


Fellowship week is fast approaching so let me get this off my chest now....

You are an idiot.

Feel better now?

So, where were we? Oh yes, you were about to prove the validity of your view........

Knight
April 7th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Why is it stupid? It is quite possible that God created nothing at all. Even TOL's most celebrated Christian will tell you that God is Spirit only. If he is physical, where does he live? "If He is physical where does He live?????"

Who says He is physical?

Due to the fact that God is spiritual AND supernatural He has power over ALL things spiritual AND phyisical..... He, and He alone is capable of creating matter and energy from nothing.

How do YOU explain matter and energy creating themselves from nothing?

Oh yea.... I forgot.... you can't. :rolleyes:

Cyrus of Persia
April 7th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Cyrus of Persia,

Is Jesus God the Son?

Yes, i believe, He is. Why you are asking?

BillyBob
April 7th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Knight

"If He is physical where does He live?????"

Who says He is physical?

Nobody, but I am wondering how God can manipulate the physical world in any way if He exists in the Spiritual realm.


Due to the fact that God is spiritual AND supernatural He has power over ALL things spiritual AND phyisical..... He, and He alone is capable of creating matter and energy from nothing.

I don't agree that God works in the physical realm at all. He is a spirit and only through us is He made physical.


How do YOU explain matter and energy creating themselves from nothing?

I never said that they did.


Oh yea.... I forgot.... you can't. :rolleyes:

Repeat: I never said that they did.

Turbo
April 7th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Cyrus of Persia,

Is Jesus God the Son?


Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Yes, i believe, He is. Why you are asking? I'm glad to hear that, Cyrus. I ask because you said,
Talk it to the historists, archealogists, geologists. They probably can get big laugh about how ignorant people are. The Bible IS NOT AND NEVER BEEN MEANT by the authors to be scientifical book. It was meant to be book about who God is and what He has done.
Jesus affirmed that all of the Old Testament is God's authoritative word. (See post #30 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=479612#post479612) and the beginning of post #32 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=479645#post479645) of "The Right Stuff".) He specifically referred to the Genesis accounts of Creation and the Flood as true historical accounts:

And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?" Matthew 19:4-5 (also Mark 10:6-8)

So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Genesis 1:27

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. Genesis 2:24



"And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. " Luke 17:26-27

So Cyrus, why do you trust the theories of historians, archealogists, and geologists over the testimony of the LORD himself?

It is better to trust in the LORD
Than to put confidence in man. Psalm 118:8




I also dont think i need to go through all we all know that "day" in the bible can be translated also as "certain period", etc etc..."So the evening and the morning were the nth day."

Suppose God really did mean "day" when He said "day" in Genesis 1. How could He possibly make that more clear? It seems to me the narrator is going out of his way to communicate that these were normal-lengthed days. And He reinforced that He created in six regular days when He gave the ten commandments:
[/list]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11[/list]

smaller
April 7th, 2004, 06:13 PM
you "fundies" really ought to brush up on your "day" understandings.

We are expressly told that to God a DAY is as A THOUSAND YEARS...and A THOUSAND YEARS as a DAY.

We are in the SIXTH DAY of MANkind (according to God's Accounting) approaching the SEVENTH DAY of GOD'S Sabbath REST wherein NO MAN can work.

These things were written AS EXAMPLES of THE GOOD THINGS yet to COME.

Even "thousand" is a figurative word in the text as is DAY, as is NIGHT, as is MORNING.

It is no wonder unbelievers see "christians" as idiots.

Freak
April 7th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Knight to BB

BB... do you really believe that?

If so.... that would be the most idiotic worldview I have ever heard of! Far more stupid then raw atheism.

In other words... you are professing that there is an eternal God that existed and at some point during that existence a universe created itself out of noting by sheer chance having nothing to do with this eternal God.

And then this universe evolved various systems and structures and eventually life by sheer chance. And then finally this life came aware of this eternal God even though he had nothing to do with their existence.

This is all utterly ridiculous and embarrassing.

Fellowship week is fast approaching so let me get this off my chest now....

You are an idiot. :thumb: :chuckle:

okinrus
April 7th, 2004, 09:20 PM
The Bible is our greatest statement of faith as Christians. Now let's get down to the work of what it "means" and then maybe we will see that analyzing individual church's statements of faith will be just a distraction.

A creed expresses a concise statement of faith. It tells the reader what is orthodox and what is not.

ShadowMaid
April 7th, 2004, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.



Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man'. Besides, we are all 'Sons of God'.



Jesus said that we all could be his equal in our relationship with God. That is the 'Good News'.



There's a topic just waiting to be debated.



:shut:



Maybe.



Yes, a spiritual ressurection.



:rolleyes:



Does that include the Dahmapada?



Uh oh, 'Myth Alert!'



:darwinsm:



Define 'supernatural'?



Yes, but written by men and are fallacious in many instances.



Define 'Eternal damnation'?



Oh boy, more fuel for righteous indignation. :doh:



Yuck! That sound horrible. Besides, the libs keep claiming that the world is overpopulated as it is, now we're gonna add to it with a bunch of smelly corpses? There goes the neighborhood!



:rolleyes:



The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it.

BB, the things you have just said are totally bent up. It sounds like you don't take the Bible seriously.:rolleyes:

ebenz47037
April 7th, 2004, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Perhaps God had nothing to do with the creation of the universe. He is, after all, Spirit, not Physical.

Jesus called himself the 'Son of Man'. Besides, we are all 'Sons of God'.

Jesus said that we all could be his equal in our relationship with God. That is the 'Good News'.

There's a topic just waiting to be debated.

:shut:

Maybe.

Yes, a spiritual ressurection.

:rolleyes:

Does that include the Dahmapada?

Uh oh, 'Myth Alert!'

:darwinsm:

Define 'supernatural'?

Yes, but written by men and are fallacious in many instances.

Define 'Eternal damnation'?

Oh boy, more fuel for righteous indignation. :doh:

Yuck! That sound horrible. Besides, the libs keep claiming that the world is overpopulated as it is, now we're gonna add to it with a bunch of smelly corpses? There goes the neighborhood!

:rolleyes:

The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it.

BillyBob,

If you believe all of this, where do you place your hope? One thing that all Christians share is our hope for something better to come in the future. We look around the world as we see it and know that it is bad now and getting worse. But, we have hope for a brighter future. The Bible promises us a better future. It may not happen in our lifetimes (time is not the same for God as it is for us).

It seems to me that you've lost your hope for a better tomorrow. I feel sorry for you, BillyBob.

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 05:02 AM
Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?


"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 05:06 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

BB, the things you have just said are totally bent up. It sounds like you don't take the Bible seriously.:rolleyes:

I don't take it literally, but I do take it very seriously.

Anyway, I mainly wrote that to make Freak's head explode. [That would be a great smilie!]

:ExplodingFreakHead:

Cyrus of Persia
April 8th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Turbo,

1. The belief that Jesus is Son of God has NOTHING to do with believing was some story in the Bible "true", or not.

2. You are approaching to the Bible wearing modern glasses about "historical truth". Ancient people in times of the Bible had different concept of "truth" than we have. For them no story needed nessessarily to be "historically", or "scientifically" true. The story was TRUE, because God taught to us something through it. In that way all the Bible can be taken as the word of God.




Originally posted by Turbo


"So the evening and the morning were the [/u]nth[/u] day."

Suppose God really did mean "day" when He said "day" in Genesis 1. How could He possibly make that more clear? It seems to me the narrator is going out of his way to communicate that these were normal-lengthed days. And He reinforced that He created in six regular days when He gave the ten commandments:
[/list]"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11[/list]

1. Hebrew word for "day" can also mean "certain period of time". So the fact that we translated it as "day" doesnt mean that we translated it correctly.

2. The point of the Creation story is not HOW the world was made, but WHO made the world and what is our task in this world.

Until we keep taking creation story as scientific story, we keep running against the wall. It could be scientific story back then when people had different understanding than we own. If the Genesis would be written nowadays, i'm pretty sure that it would include OUR knowledges about the origins.

philosophizer
April 8th, 2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Nobody, but I am wondering how God can manipulate the physical world in any way if He exists in the Spiritual realm.

Originally posted by BillyBob
I don't agree that God works in the physical realm at all. He is a spirit and only through us is He made physical.


How do you define "Spiritual Realm"? If the spiritual realm is like a parallel universe to our own, or a higher plane to our universe, that never bisects the physical realm-- if that's the case, then you might have a point.

But how do you know that's the case?

What if the "spiritual realm" could simply be called another dimension to our own universe? The physical universe has dimensions of length, width, and depth. All those dimensions bisect each other. They do so at every point.

If the "spiritual realm" is considered as a dimension of our reality, then it would bisect the physical universe at all points. A "spirit" could indeed affect the "physical world."

But that's all about defining terms. None of that can be scientifically proven-- that includes both my theory and yours. So why do you cling so hard to the belief that a spirit cannot affect the physical universe? Can you prove that assertion?

Knight
April 8th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Nobody, but I am wondering how God can manipulate the physical world in any way if He exists in the Spiritual realm.
God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.


I don't agree that God works in the physical realm at all. He is a spirit and only through us is He made physical.And this thought comes from where??? The book of BillyBob???

What should compel me to give your view any validity?


I never said that they did.
Yes you did.

When you make the claim that God had nothing to do with creating the energy and matter you are in fact stating that the universe (and everything in it) created itself out of nothing. Unless of course you can tell what created it and out of where did it come?

Duder
April 8th, 2004, 01:08 PM
How do YOU explain matter and energy creating themselves from nothing?

Three thousand years ago, the Alexandrian philosopher-mathematician Erotosthenes made a very convincing argument that the earth was a sphere. He even calculated its circuference to within 2 percent of the modern, accepted figure. The trouble was, very few people had the dedication to follow his argument, so his idea was not widely accepted until just a few hundred years ago.

I do not claim it is true that the universe self-created out of nothing. But I have seen how it is possible. For a couple of years my hobby was reading books about science. To understand the self-creating universe theory requires a passing familiarity with quantum mechanics, general relativity, cosmology and the anthropic principle. Neither I nor BillyBob could cram all of that into a post to a skeptical message board.

It is a very counter-intuitive idea. But it is not a stupid idea.

Dimo
April 8th, 2004, 01:24 PM
Knight posted:

God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

Dimo:

In this physical universe we have choices. God wants us to make the right choices. He is suspending his power to force us until a later date. I know that God works through the natural world. As of yet I have not seen anything "supernatural".

Knight posted:

I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.

Dimo:

I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings.

BillyBob posted:

Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?

"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

And then:

I don't take it literally, but I do take it very seriously.


Dimo:

BillyBob, I agree. It seems that a lot of people have a hard time seeing truth and/or the meaning of metaphors. And so for them those of us who can see the truth in metaphorical words and phrases are not taking these things seriously.

Forgive them BillyBob for they know not what they do.

Knight
April 8th, 2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Duder
To understand the self-creating universe theory requires a passing familiarity with quantum mechanics, general relativity, cosmology and the anthropic principle. Neither I nor BillyBob could cram all of that into a post to a skeptical message board.

It is a very counter-intuitive idea. But it is not a stupid idea. Translation: I have no idea how matter and energy could have created themselves, in fact I can't even imagine a reasonable explanation.

Knight
April 8th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Dimo
Dimo:

In this physical universe we have choices. God wants us to make the right choices. He is suspending his power to force us until a later date. I know that God works through the natural world. As of yet I have not seen anything "supernatural". Good for you!


Dimo:

I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings. Let's let BillyBob speak for himself.


Dimo:

BillyBob, I agree. It seems that a lot of people have a hard time seeing truth and/or the meaning of metaphors. And so for them those of us who can see the truth in metaphorical words and phrases are not taking these things seriously.

Forgive them BillyBob for they know not what they do. I have no problem with metaphors they help us to understand what God is really saying and in fact God uses figures of speech all the time in the Bible.

Care to discuss any specific cases?

Duder
April 8th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Translation: I have no idea how matter and energy could have created themselves, in fact I can't even imagine a reasonable explanation.

More precisely, this is the best that your internal translator can make of what I said.

I find it very odd that I jump to the defence of BillyBob - but hey! One must occasionally give the devil his due.

Knight
April 8th, 2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Duder

I find it very odd that I jump to the defence of BillyBob - but hey! One must occasionally give the devil his due. Why do you find it odd that your jumping to BillyBob's defense?

You and BillyBob have very similar beliefs.

The only thing that is odd is the beliefs that you two share.

Duder
April 8th, 2004, 02:13 PM
No, BillyBob and I couldn't be farther apart. He is a greedy fascist, while I, on the other hand, am a stupid commie.

He is red, white and blue, while I am more of a UN kind of guy.

He thinks violence is a good way to solve your problems, while for me, it is the last resort.

But occasionally . . . just ocasionally, he has something very interesting to say.

novice
April 8th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Duder
He is red, white and blue, while I am more of a UN kind of guy.
:vomit:

ebenz47037
April 8th, 2004, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Not at all. I am experiencing a better today because of my faith. I'm not waiting till tomorrow.

I find the whole idea of waiting for things to get better after I'm dead to be absurd.

If Christians have to wait until they are dead to experience the Kingdom, why don't they just put a gun in their mouth and get to tomorrow faster?


"The Kingdom is here and now, yet you do not see it". -Jesus

The thing you don't see is that even though I have hope for a better future, I still live to make a better world today. I just happen to put my total trust on God that He will control the future as opposed to putting my trust on man that he will make the world good without any external help.

If I seem to be overly "religious," that's all right. I don't let people's opinions of me determine my faith. My faith determines people's opinions of me. I don't live my life to win the acceptance and approval of the world. I know that, as a Christian, I'm supposed to accept the disapproval and unacceptance of the world. That's no big deal to me because I know that I have God's approval and acceptance. That's what a Christian is supposed to live for.

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by Knight

God is the most powerful thing in all existence, He has power of all things spiritual AND physical. He can do whatever He chooses to do. One thing He chose to do was create a physical universe.

What evidence do you have that supports your claim?


I really have no clue as to why you think that a spiritual God cannot control and interact with a physical realm. There is no logical reason for you to have this view.

Ah, funny you should mention logic. There is nothing logical about religion, it comes down to matters of faith. But, if you want to bring logic into the discussion, what logical reason do you have for your view that the Spiritual realm can interact directly with the physical realm? And, what logical reason do you have to support your view that God created anything?


And this thought comes from where??? The book of BillyBob???

Hmmmm, I keep hearing about the 'Book of BillyBob', but I have yet to receive a check from my publisher.


What should compel me to give your view any validity?

That's up to you, Knight. I don't think there is any danger in considering all possibilities.

I am not claiming that I am right, I am simply postulating an alternative viewpoint. Why should compel me to give your view any validity.


Yes you did.

When you make the claim that God had nothing to do with creating the energy and matter you are in fact stating that the universe (and everything in it) created itself out of nothing. Unless of course you can tell what created it and out of where did it come?

Actually, No I didn't. A possibility is that the Universe may be in an eternal state of expansion and contraction. Therefor, there would be no beginning. Therefor, it didn't create itself and neither did God.

C'mon, you can do it. Concede that I did not say that the Universe created itself out of nothing.

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Dimo:
I think BillyBob accepts that God interacts with the physical realm. I think he believes that God does this through human beings.

Knight:
Let's let BillyBob speak for himself.

Billy:
Dimo got it right. I thought I made myself clear about that.

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Duder

I find it very odd that I jump to the defence of BillyBob - but hey! One must occasionally give the devil his due.

Next time, could you choose a different metaphor, please? :chuckle:

Duder
April 8th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Sorry about that, friend.

Uh... how about Ginges Kahn? Attilla the Hun? George Lincoln Rockwell?....:chuckle:

Knight
April 8th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

What evidence do you have that supports your claim?A. God told me He did it. :D The Bible is evidence. It may not be compelling evidence to you but it is evidence none the less. (at least I have evidence... you have none).

Oh and then their is always science....

B. Matter and energy do in fact exist.

C. It is a scientific fact that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed (naturally).

D. Therefore something supernatural created these things.

I will stick with science... you can believe in magic if you like.



Ah, funny you should mention logic. There is nothing logical about religion, it comes down to matters of faith. But, if you want to bring logic into the discussion, what logical reason do you have for your view that the Spiritual realm can interact directly with the physical realm? And, what logical reason do you have to support your view that God created anything?See above.


Hmmmm, I keep hearing about the 'Book of BillyBob', but I have yet to receive a check from my publisher.Oh trust me... everything will get settled up in the end.


That's up to you, Knight. I don't think there is any danger in considering all possibilities.

I am not claiming that I am right, I am simply postulating an alternative viewpoint. Why should compel me to give your view any validity.What should compel you?
My view is logical, rational and doesn't break any unbreakable laws of science.

Your view is illogical (matter creating itself), irrational (matter creating itself out of nothing) and unscientific.

Therefore my view is a much more feasible view in every respect.


Actually, No I didn't. A possibility is that the Universe may be in an eternal state of expansion and contraction. Therefor, there would be no beginning. Therefor, it didn't create itself and neither did God.

C'mon, you can do it. Concede that I did not say that the Universe created itself out of nothing. OK, so now you appeal to an eternally existing universe which is just as unscientific and illogical.

Energy becomes more and more useless, which is a scientific fact. If the universe had existed eternally (into the past) there would simply be no more usable energy left. Therefore that gap has been closed by science. Matter and energy came into existence at a point and time in the past - proved by science. Gap closed.

Again.... you are forced to break scientific laws to hold your view.

I prefer science.... you can stick with magic.

BillyBob
April 8th, 2004, 06:11 PM
You are the guy who believes in magic, Knight. You accept the Bible literally which is full of illogical, unscientific magical events.

But besides that, if energy and matter can be neither created nor destroyed, then the same amount of both that was in the universe at the beginning of creation is still there. Soooooooooo, that being the case, there is no scientific reason that the universe cannot be eternal.

Oh wait, you have magical energy in your universe that becomes more and more useless over time. Very scientific!! At what point does your magical energy become entirely useless? Do you have a particular date in mind? Your magical energy is only about 6000 years old now, what percent of it has become useless? If we can figure that out, we can calculate the end of time! :noway:

Dimo
April 8th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Knight in his divine armour posted:

I have no problem with metaphors they help us to understand what God is really saying and in fact God uses figures of speech all the time in the Bible.

Dimo:

The "miracles" never cease. I agree.

Tuetonic Knight posted:

Care to discuss any specific cases?

Dimo:

How about Genesis, all of it?

Oh but wait we've already done that many times. You still believe in "supernatural" miracles for which there is no evidence. And I keep pointing out that your tendency to see metaphorical truths as literal truths inhibits you from considering other possibilities. You refuse to admit that perhaps the metaphors, which appear to be literal "supernatural" events to you, are figurative representations of our spiritual nature and origins in the natural world.

Come on Knight is this really that difficult?

You remind of a child who tries to make things difficult so that he/she can avoid the truth.


The other day I was watching the biography of Rasputin. The historian kept saying that Rasputin definitely had some healing powers. He then gave the evidence that convinced him, I was not convinced.

What do you think?

Knight
April 9th, 2004, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Oh wait, you have magical energy in your universe that becomes more and more useless over time. Very scientific!! At what point does your magical energy become entirely useless? Do you have a particular date in mind? Your magical energy is only about 6000 years old now, what percent of it has become useless? If we can figure that out, we can calculate the end of time! :noway: Dude... don't embarrass yourself.

Energy does run out, or become more and more useless! It's called entropy... you know.... the second law of thermodynamics???

Did you really not know that fact?

Knight
April 9th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Dimo
What do you think? I think you are a flaming idiot with your head so far in sand you have no idea what to think.

That is what I think.

Cyrus of Persia
April 9th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Knight

I think you are a flaming idiot with your head so far in sand you have no idea what to think.

That is what I think.

Methinks that Knight has used too much into word "idiot". Also methinks is Jesus one day saying to Knight: shutup you idiot, and stand back. I dont know you.

Knight
April 9th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Methinks that Knight has used too much into word "idiot". Also methinks is Jesus one day saying to Knight: shutup you idiot, and stand back. I dont know you. Actually I think Jesus would say....

"Stand back Knight... let Me call these fools idiots!"

Cyrus of Persia
April 9th, 2004, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Actually I think Jesus would say....

"Stand back Knight... let Me call these fools idiots!"

Nice wishful thinking. Dream on :chuckle:

ShadowMaid
April 9th, 2004, 07:32 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I don't take it literally, but I do take it very seriously.

Anyway, I mainly wrote that to make Freak's head explode. [That would be a great smilie!]

:ExplodingFreakHead:

Could you please define the words "literally" and "seriously" in your own words?

So you basicly just said things, that may not be true in your case, just to tick someone off... *tsk tsk*. And even if you do believe all that stuff, it's twisted pretty badly.

BillyBob
April 9th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Dude... don't embarrass yourself.

Energy does run out, or become more and more useless! It's called entropy... you know.... the second law of thermodynamics???

Did you really not know that fact?

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics demonstrates that energy will dissipate under the right circumstances. It does not say that the energy becomes useless. If you would like some good links describing entropy, let me know.

BillyBob
April 9th, 2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Could you please define the words "literally" and "seriously" in your own words?

I take the spiritual teachings of the Bible seriously. I do not accept things like 6 day creation, Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark literally.


So you basicly just said things, that may not be true in your case, just to tick someone off... *tsk tsk*.

Yes, I'm sure that I am the first person ever to do such a thing. :rolleyes:

Dimo
April 9th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Knight posted:

I think you are a flaming idiot with your head so far in sand you have no idea what to think.

That is what I think.

Dimo:

Well thank you Knight. Coming from you I consider this a compliment.

But out of curiosity, please why don't you tell me what I should think.

ShadowMaid
April 9th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I take the spiritual teachings of the Bible seriously. I do not accept things like 6 day creation, Adam and Eve or Noah's Ark literally.

Why not? It says so right in the Bible.


Yes, I'm sure that I am the first person ever to do such a thing. :rolleyes:

I'm sure I've said things that I don't believe just to tick someone off, but as a Christian, I'm trying to change that and become pure in mind. I may not ever become perfect, but I'm supposed to strive for such an image. I hope that you will too.

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Why not? It says so right in the Bible.

So?




I'm sure I've said things that I don't believe just to tick someone off, but as a Christian, I'm trying to change that and become pure in mind. I may not ever become perfect, but I'm supposed to strive for such an image. I hope that you will too.

If being a Christian means that I have to accept wacky mythology as reality, I don't want any part of it. Fortunately, it does not. Thus, my occasional jabs at fundamentalist thinking. It's all for the common good. :D

Knight
April 10th, 2004, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Nice wishful thinking. Dream on :chuckle: I suppose I could fashion my own whip and start chasing people around with it.... or would that be "un-Christian"? :rolleyes:

Knight
April 10th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
If being a Christian means that I have to accept wacky mythology as reality, I don't want any part of it. Fortunately, it does not. Thus, my occasional jabs at fundamentalist thinking. It's all for the common good. :D So then.... you trade "wacky mythology" for unscientific magic? :nono:

ShadowMaid
April 10th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob

So?

Well, isn't the Bible the foundation of Christianity?


If being a Christian means that I have to accept wacky mythology as reality, I don't want any part of it. Fortunately, it does not. Thus, my occasional jabs at fundamentalist thinking. It's all for the common good. :D

How are you telling mythology from truth? Are you just making God into what you think is possible? Do you believe that God is the Almighty God? And that he can do anything?

Knight
April 10th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Well, isn't the Bible the foundation of Christianity?

No silly!!!

It's the "Book of BillyBob".

ShadowMaid
April 10th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Okay, uh, Knight? Don't you think that avatar is a little too friendly? :shocked:

Knight
April 10th, 2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Okay, uh, Knight? Don't you think that avatar is a little too friendly? :shocked: Nothing is too friendly for Fellowship Week! :jessilu:

ShadowMaid
April 10th, 2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by Knight

Nothing is too friendly for Fellowship Week! :jessilu:

Uh, um, okay.

Cyrus of Persia
April 10th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by Knight

I suppose I could fashion my own whip and start chasing people around with it.... or would that be "un-Christian"? :rolleyes:

Depends how do you understand acting in Christian way. If you look at historical christianity even toasting and killing any "heretics" here would not be sin.

If you look it in way how Jesus used this, you need at first find some Church what is used as marketplace full of sheep, goats, and birds...

I dont think that using whip on those who think differently than you in forums, is the best way to deal with it :chuckle:

Dimo
April 10th, 2004, 07:20 PM
ShadowMaid, have you ever seen a literal "tree of knowledge of good and evil"?

Is this not a metaphor for "The Law", or in Aquinas's word's "Divine Law"?

Is it not possible that the six days of creation are also metaphorical speech designed to allow human's to incorporate God's creative power into a weekly acknowledgement?

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by Knight

So then.... you trade "wacky mythology" for unscientific magic? :nono:

Oh no, my dear sweet friend. I don't want to have anything to do with either.

Happy Fellowship Week! :kiss:

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by ShadowMaid

Well, isn't the Bible the foundation of Christianity?

Funny, I thought 'Christ' was. I wonder where I got that silly idea??


How are you telling mythology from truth?

Science is a good measuring stick.


Are you just making God into what you think is possible?

Yes, just like everybody else does.


Do you believe that God is the Almighty God?

Yes, I do.


And that he can do anything?

No, I do not.

Dimo
April 10th, 2004, 08:09 PM
Barney posted:

Energy does run out, or become more and more useless! It's called entropy... you know.... the second law of thermodynamics???

Dimo:

SLoT applies only to a closed system. Noone is certain that the universe is a closed system. At least in the way that would be required for SLoT.

Also as far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, SLoT does not apply to eletrical, magnetic or eletromagnetic energy. I realize that each of these forms of energy can be transformed into one or more of the others. However, when energy is not in the form of heat it does seek equilibrium in the manner described by SLoT.

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Barney?

:crackup:

theeyologin
April 10th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Hi all, I am new to this forum. I read through this thread and am trying to keep up on the discussion.
I wanted to ask BB a question. Do you believe that Jesus was a literal person? And if so do you believe in His Diety?

thanks for the opportunity to chime in. =)

Lucky
April 10th, 2004, 08:56 PM
Welcome to TOL. :wave2:

ShadowMaid
April 10th, 2004, 08:58 PM
:wave: Welcome :wave:

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by theeyologin

Hi all, I am new to this forum. I read through this thread and am trying to keep up on the discussion.
I wanted to ask BB a question. Do you believe that Jesus was a literal person? And if so do you believe in His Diety?

thanks for the opportunity to chime in. =)

Oh man, I don't wanna go through this again.

OK, welcome to TOL. Yes, of course Jesus was a 'literal person' if by that you are asking "did Jesus exist". As for Jesus' 'diety', I cannot claim to know what Jesus ate.

Freak
April 10th, 2004, 09:24 PM
BB, do you believe Jesus was/is God?

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 09:29 PM
I believe that Jesus was an enlightened human who experienced God in ways that all of us can but few ever do.

If Jesus was God, then you and I are also God. :think:

Oh boy, here is a chance to use my favorite new smilie!

:ExplodingFreakHead:

Freak
April 10th, 2004, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I believe that Jesus was an enlightened human who experienced God in ways that all of us can but few ever do.

If Jesus was God, then you and I are also God. :think:

Oh boy, here is a chance to use my favorite new smilie!

:ExplodingFreakHead: You really didn't answer my question.

Again: do you believe Jesus was/is God?

Yes
No
Don't know

ShadowMaid
April 10th, 2004, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Funny, I thought 'Christ' was. I wonder where I got that silly idea??

Oh? So you actually believe in that part of the Bible?


Science is a good measuring stick.

God is supernatural, you don't think any of the miracles happened?


Yes, just like everybody else does.

Uh, I hope you're right.


Yes, I do.

Oh, okay. That's good.


No, I do not.

That's good too.

Dimo
April 10th, 2004, 10:14 PM
ShadowMaid, where does it say in the Bible that God is supernatural?

When I was in Las Vegas for the CES show, I stopped at the Galileo booth. There I saw a metalic globe levitating between two electromagnetic poles. If this device had been around fifty or more years ago, many people of that time would have assumed it was a "supernatural" occurrence.

Supernatural is a word created by humans to describe things that they believed were not natural or man made or were beyond the accepted scope of human abilities and technology. Historically it is a tool used by authoritarians to strike fear in their subjects or enemies.

Perhaps there is only what we understand, and what we don't understand.

SOTK
April 10th, 2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Dimo

ShadowMaid, where does it say in the Bible that God is supernatural?

Where in the Bible does it say that He is not supernatural? Aren't we talking about faith here? The belief in things unseen? I am told that the Earth is round and not flat. I've never circumnavigated the globe myself though so I don't know for sure that it is, do I? I've also been told that the Earth as well as the other planets in our solar system circle the Sun. I believe this although I've never actually seen it occur.

I have faith that God has done everything that He has stated that He has done through the Holy Bible. This is faith. Faith doesn't require proof. It only requires belief.

BillyBob
April 10th, 2004, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by Freak

You really didn't answer my question.

Again: do you believe Jesus was/is God?

Yes
No
Don't know

I believe that Jesus was an enlightened human who experienced God in ways that all of us can but few ever do.

If Jesus was God, then you and I are also God.

Oh boy, here is a chance to use my favorite new smilie!

:ExplodingFreakHead:

theeyologin
April 11th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Thank you all for the warm welcome.
BB, Since you believe that Jesus was an enlightened human.. Would you consider Him to be truthful in the things that He said.. Because if He was enlightened he would have had a greater grasp of truth than us all. Would you not say so. And if this is the case, Do you believe that what the scriptures record Him as saying to be true?
I apologize if you are having to repeat the issue, i have not read any of your addresses concerning this. =)

BillyBob
April 11th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Wow, your first two posts and both were directed toward me! :noid:

I'm not really interested in debating theology, Theeyologin. I just couldn't resist taking a couple swipes at Freak.

I will answer your question about the Scriptures being an accurate portrayal of what Jesus said, however.

I don't know. Obviously I hope they are or what would be the point of being a Christian? I find much of the Bible to be dubious and do not accept a literal translation of it. Somewhere on this board is my 'BillyBob's Statement of Faith'. While it was designed to be provocative, it summarizes my views....more or less. Although I have changed my position on the Pauline Epistles, somewhat.

Do you think The Gospel of Thomas gives an accurate portrayal of what Jesus said?

OK, back to harassing commies and anti-Semites [Yes, that's you, Cryt!]. :bannana:

BillyBob
April 11th, 2004, 07:34 AM
Hey Theeologin, here's an Easter present for you!


TOP TEN SIGNS YOU'RE A (CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALIST

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of
gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when
someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists
say that people evolved from other life forms, but you
have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were
created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem
believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the
"atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even
flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all
the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the
elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" --
including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and
Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have
no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated
Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed,
came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little
loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth
(4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with
believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting
in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of
generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet
with the exception of those who share your beliefs --
though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend
Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet
consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and
physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot
rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be
all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it
comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be
evidence that prayer works. And you think that the
remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and
agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church
history - but still call yourself a Christian.

theeyologin
April 11th, 2004, 07:11 PM
May I simply respond with a statment and a question.
I do believe that you are generally stereotyping a "christian".
Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Dimo
April 13th, 2004, 03:57 PM
SOTK4EVER posted:

Where in the Bible does it say that He is not supernatural?

Dimo:

I never said it did. I do not know if there is a "supernatural" or not. I have experienced natural phenomenon first hand. Any concept of the "supernatural" is second hand or heresay. I can safely assume that the natural universe exists for all people. I can assume for myself that a "spiritual" world exists. Perhaps this is what you are calling "supernatural". Regardless, I cannot, with any amount of intellectual integrity, force my concept of "spiritual" on others.

SOTK4EVER posted:

Aren't we talking about faith here? The belief in things unseen?

Dimo:

Yes. That is what I use as the basis for my spirituality.

However, there are many here who are trying to prove, through science, the reality of their concept of God. This is what I do not agree with.

SOTK4EVER posted:

I am told that the Earth is round and not flat. I've never circumnavigated the globe myself though so I don't know for sure that it is, do I?

Dimo:

No, but there is much physical evidence that suggests the reality of this claim. This conclusion is both mathematically and logically sound.

What exactly does this have to do with the "suppposed" existence of the "supernatural", which is neither a mathematically nor logically sound conslusion?

SOT4KEVER posted:

I've also been told that the Earth as well as the other planets in our solar system circle the Sun. I believe this although I've never actually seen it occur.

Dimo:

Refer to my previous response.

SOTK4EVER posted:

I have faith that God has done everything that He has stated that He has done through the Holy Bible. This is faith. Faith doesn't require proof. It only requires belief.

Dimo:

I agree. I just do not assume, as you do, that this was done with "supernatural" forces.

JoyfulRook
April 13th, 2004, 04:07 PM
DBC is Great aint it... :D I'm a proud member....

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by theeyologin

May I simply respond with a statment and a question.

Absolutely.



I do believe that you are generally stereotyping a "christian".

Absolutely.



Do you consider yourself to be a Christian?

Absolutely.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Hey Theeologin, here's an Easter present for you!


TOP TEN SIGNS YOU'RE A (CHRISTIAN) FUNDAMENTALIST

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of
gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when
someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists
say that people evolved from other life forms, but you
have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were
created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem
believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the
"atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even
flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all
the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the
elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" --
including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and
Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have
no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated
Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed,
came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little
loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth
(4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with
believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting
in their tents and guessing that Earth is a couple of
generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet
with the exception of those who share your beliefs --
though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend
Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet
consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and
physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot
rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be
all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it
comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be
evidence that prayer works. And you think that the
remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and
agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church
history - but still call yourself a Christian. Dude... get your own material.

Stealing from atheists no less. :nono:

And you call yourself a Christian? :rolleyes:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 04:54 PM
I posted it because it is funny.


[I never claimed authorship]

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I posted it because it is funny. And you just forgot to give credit to the author??????????????????? :rolleyes:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 04:56 PM
I don't know who the author is, do you?

It was something that was sent to me via e-mail.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 04:57 PM
It would be far more funny if it were more accurate. Pure straw-man, no filling.

Pathetic.

Only someone equally as pathetic would find humor in it.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I don't know who the author is, do you?

It was something that was sent to me via e-mail. I would have stated that then.

But you were hoping we might think you wrote it right?

Wow, come to think of it that is even MORE pathetic!

:BillyBob: = :dunce:

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Knight

It would be far more funny if it were more accurate. Pure straw-man, no filling.

Pathetic.

Only someone equally as pathetic would find humor in it.

You are true - there is actually no humor involved.

It's actually sad that Christians can be so stupid as described there. At least in most points there.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

You are true - there is actually no humor involved.

It's actually sad that Christians can be so stupid as described there. At least in most points there. Shorten your signature or I will shorten it for you.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia
It's actually sad that Christians can be so stupid as described there. At least in most points there. It may describe some dumb "Christians" but it is pure staw-man in light of actual Christianity and therefore not very humorous... especially coming from someone who claims to be a Christian.

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Shorten your signature or I will shorten it for you.

1. How does my signature relates with the reply i gave?

2. My signature doesnt exceed the amount of characters i can use.

3. I can say that your signature with a picture is as long as mine.

4. You are an administrator. What rules did i violated with my signature?

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Knight

It may describe some dumb "Christians" but it is pure staw-man in light of actual Christianity and therefore not very humorous... especially coming from someone who claims to be a Christian.

Is it?

So you:

1) dont deny the existence of other gods, nor will be outraged if someone denies the existence of yours?

2) are not touched if scientist say that you are derived from apes?

3) dont laugh at polytheists and at their beliefs?

4) dont see no problem with violence in other religions?

5) dont exclude the possibility that those who dont share your belief dont go to hell?

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

1. How does my signature relates with the reply i gave?It doesn't.


2. My signature doesnt exceed the amount of characters i can use. It exceeds the space that I want you to use.


3. I can say that your signature with a picture is as long as mine.TOL isn't your forum, its mine.


4. You are an administrator. What rules did i violated with my signature? I asked you to shorten it.

Nobody wants to spend all day scolling through signatures that are 4 times longer than the average post.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Is it?

So you:

1) dont deny the existence of other gods, nor will be outraged if someone denies the existence of yours?

2) are not touched if scientist say that you are derived from apes?

3) dont laugh at polytheists and at their beliefs?

4) dont see no problem with violence in other religions?

5) dont exclude the possibility that those who dont share your belief dont go to hell? Even your extreme paraphrasing falls short. Unlike your signature. :D

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Knight

I would have stated that then.

Actually, I did.


But you were hoping we might think you wrote it right?

No, not at all. I posted that same thing as a thread a couple weeks ago and specifically stated that it was sent to me by a friend. Sorry you missed it.

I know it's around here somewhere.....ah, Here (http://theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13547) it is!


Wow, come to think of it that is even MORE pathetic!

It would be if it were true. Why do you guys always resort to false accusations? Not very Christian like. :nono:


:BillyBob: = :dunce:

Happy Fellowship Week to you, too.

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 05:35 PM
Knight,

I have no problems with shortening it. I just got couple of questions to YOU:

Why haven't you limited the number of characters we can use in signature? I think you should do this if you want to save the space.

Is it polite according to your Christian morals to say people "TOL isn't your forum, its mine." to justify why your signature can be so long, and mine cannot? I dont see much hospitality in this. If i call guests i usually try to offer them the best what i have, or at least the same as i have, never worser. Methinks that someone cannot be polite even during Fellowship Week, not talking about other days. Why is that? Is your Christ telling you to be arrogant and nasty? If you are THE host then why you keep Fellowship Week at all? For trying to control your temper that exceeds it limits too often?

BTW, are you the only and the main owner of those forums?

I will shorten my signature, but at first i would like to hear your answers.

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Knight

It may describe some dumb "Christians" but it is pure staw-man in light of actual Christianity and therefore not very humorous... especially coming from someone who claims to be a Christian.

It is a JOKE! :doh:

Why are you guys so easily offended by what is an obvious bit of sarcastic humor?

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Even your extreme paraphrasing falls short. Unlike your signature. :D

Even your ability to hide from questions falls short.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Knight,

I have no problems with shortening it. I just got couple of questions to YOU:


Why haven't you limited the number of characters we can use in signature? I think you should do this if you want to save the space.The number of hard returns that a person could use would negate the effect of the limit.


Is it polite according to your Christian morals to say people "TOL isn't your forum, its mine." to justify why your signature can be so long, and mine cannot?Yes, it is polite.

You on the other hand are not polite. A polite person would have said... "oh sure no problem sorry about that" as many others have.


I dont see much hospitality in this.OK.


If i call guests i usually try to offer them the best what i have, or at least the same as i have, never worser.I try to provide for all my guests not just you.

People do not like vertically tall signatures. Makes for too much wasted screen space.


Methinks that someone cannot be polite even during Fellowship Week, not talking about other days. Why is that? Is your Christ telling you to be arrogant and nasty? If you are THE host then why you keep Fellowship Week at all? For trying to control your temper that exceeds it limits too often?

BTW, are you the only and the main owner of those forums?

I will shorten my signature, but at first i would like to hear your answers. You have heard them.

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Even your ability to hide from questions falls short. LOL... that would mean that I answer questions to the approval of most. In other words I don't hide from questions.

You're not having avery good day are you?

:dunce:

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

It is a JOKE! :doh:

Why are you guys so easily offended by what is an obvious bit of sarcastic humor? Who said anything about being offended?

I enjoy humor even when it's pointed at me.

But good humor is based on truth.

Your top ten list "rip-off" was pure straw-man. And therefore not funny.

It wasn't that I was offended it was that I was once again dissapointed in you for attempting to mock the Lord Jesus Christ.

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 05:51 PM
I was only mocking people who take themselves too seriously.

Cyrus of Persia
April 13th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Knight

You're not having avery good day are you?

:dunce:

There was no problems with my day, and i'm off to sleep soon.

You just gave another example today how much such Christianity of some people is worth of.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I hope you are satisfied with my new signature now?

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I was only mocking people who take themselves too seriously. Oh.... well that clears up everything.


:rolleyes:

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

There was no problems with my day, and i'm off to sleep soon.

You just gave another example today how much such Christianity of some people is worth of.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I hope you are satisfied with my new signature now? Have fun on whatever forum you find after TOL. :wave:

BillyBob
April 13th, 2004, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Oh.... well that clears up everything.


:rolleyes:

:chuckle:

Freak
April 13th, 2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Knight to BB

Dude... get your own material.

Stealing from atheists no less. :nono:

And you call yourself a Christian? :rolleyes: :thumb:

Knight
April 13th, 2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Have fun on whatever forum you find after TOL. :wave: I take that back.

I was too hasty in my banning.

I apologize to Cyrus of Persia. It's true he was being very rude but it wasn't a "banable" offense.

He is unbanned.

Cyrus of Persia
April 14th, 2004, 06:24 AM
Thanks, Knight.

I sometimes go too far, so i lose the full picture.

Was not nice from me to get as rude, so i'm sorry too.

Peace?

Knight
April 14th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Thanks, Knight.

I sometimes go too far, so i lose the full picture.

Was not nice from me to get as rude, so i'm sorry too.

Peace? :thumb:

Dimo
April 15th, 2004, 04:43 PM
Knight posted:

And you just forgot to give credit to the author???????????????????

Dimo:

I seem to remember you saying that I was nitpicking when I pointed out that someone here used a joke by a famous comedian, and did not give them credit.

I think your exact response was "lighten up frances".

Dimo
April 15th, 2004, 04:50 PM
Knight posted:

I think you are a flaming idiot with your head so far in sand you have no idea what to think.

That is what I think.

Dimo:

He posted this when I asked his opinion on the "supernatural" powers of Rasputin.

He then posted:

It would be far more funny if it were more accurate. Pure straw-man, no filling.

Then Knight posted:

Yes, it is polite.

You on the other hand are not polite. A polite person would have said... "oh sure no problem sorry about that" as many others have.

Dimo:

Can you say HYPOCRIT?

Cyrus of Persia
April 15th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Dimo


Then Knight posted:

Yes, it is polite.

You on the other hand are not polite. A polite person would have said... "oh sure no problem sorry about that" as many others have.

Dimo:

Can you say HYPOCRIT?

Knight's response was actually addressed to me.

Dimo
April 16th, 2004, 03:44 PM
Cyrus, I understand. But Knight cannot claim to be polite. And if his response to me was a joke he cannot claim that it had any substance, which was his claim against Billy Bob's post.

Given that he ends his post with that quote from scriptures, I find it ironic that Knight can ask of others that with which he does not have to concern himself.