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Clete
March 22nd, 2004, 07:41 PM
There are those of you that think people like me are too harsh, that I and others like me should be nicer.
Well I say noway Jack!
When I am not harsh or abusive it is not without cause or for frivolous reasons but is measured and intentional. Not that I am incapable of making mistakes but for the most part I say what mean and say it in a particular way for a reason. But for some this sort of thinking just will not do and it is for those that I post the following article by Bob Enyart.
It is posted in its entirety on Enyart.com (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/nicer.shtml).




Nicer Than God


Christians today are nicer than God.

Or at least they are trying to be so. In the Church there is a standard of niceness that Jesus failed to reach while on earth. Comparing God’s attitude and behavior with that of the Church today shows that believers are far more polite, tolerant, understanding and respectful to the wicked than God is.

The Church is also less offensive, rude and sarcastic than God’s men in the Bible were. And no Christian would ever be caught dead mocking the wicked, as God’s men in the Bible sometimes did.

Bob Enyart Live is an occasionally harsh, always confrontational, news-talk show. The program does not cater to what Christians expect, but to what non-Christians will listen to. And it turns out that non-Christians will listen to straight talk, including appropriate harshness and offensiveness. Yes, sometimes the show is intentionally offensive. But then, so was Jesus.

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.

Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.

Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The immediate and (super-) natural response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.

Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.

God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).

Bob Enyart Live ‘turns off’ some believers, but more non-believers ‘turn it on’ than any other Christian show in a recent Nielsen ratings report. Why are so many folks, including unbelievers, tuning in to a show that some have called rude? Perhaps it is because the loving but mushy, "Brother, bless you for calling," is missing from the program. Many Christians expect that approach, which is an absolute turn off to 95% of the population. That surely is one reason heathens do not listen to Christians. There is only so much niceness a person can stand. And all along, everyone thought the unbelievers were tuning out because they were unspiritual. But it turns out that many tune out Christians because we are unspiritual, or overly spiritual.

Nielsen TV ratings for July 1996 show that Bob Enyart Live is able to draw a larger audience than NBC’s Conan O’Brien on at least a couple nights each week. Nielsen compiled this data from the Notre Dame TV market in South Bend, Indiana which is one of the top 100 markets in America. At times, the program also outperformed Tom Snyder on CBS. The show also did well against Entertainment Tonight and Fox’s Northern Exposure and Married with Children, and it blew away Masterpiece Theater on PBS.

Being rough with the wicked does not automatically turn off unbelievers. An Indianapolis Star columnist, Steve Hall, wrote (Dec. 1, 1994): "But he’s cheerful. Oddly, despite the rigidity of his views, Enyart does not come across as a dour, puritanical type." A harsh style is difficult for more sensitive Christians to appreciate. However the biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well.

The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).

When the Ad Council airs anti-drug public service announcements (PSAs) that mock "pot heads on Jeopardy" who cannot even remember their names, they are not motivated out of hatred, but out of love. Ridicule can and does save lives. "Why do you think they call it dope?" Ad Council spots run on Christian stations and get no criticism for being unloving or unkind. Why is it that Christians never rise up against the effort to stigmatize drug users? If a pagan brings peer pressure against "pot heads," that is accepted. Let a believer, however, use mockery to stigmatize fornication or sodomy, and the Church rises in condemnation. God, however, does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).

God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17). Another carves an idol of stone and says to it "wake up" (Hab. 2:18-19).

When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, ‘I cast out demons’…" (Luke 13:32).

The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."

In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them.

The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate[s] wickedness (Ps. 45:7).

There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).

Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God.

God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.

Paul uses dripping sarcasm telling the Corinthians that they do not need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished. They are even like kings, and all that without Paul’s help (1 Cor. 4:8, 10). Sarcasm stigmatizes destructive behavior and prods people toward righteousness (1 Cor. 4:14). Paul also fell short of today’s compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by today’s standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.

Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By today’s Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John 3:18 is not nice.

Some have called Bob Enyart Live rude. Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).

When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "I’m sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).

Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.

Today we are way nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked. Go figure.

Lucky
March 22nd, 2004, 09:46 PM
We should be nice to everyone at all times. :cloud9:

j/k

Clete
March 22nd, 2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Lucky

We should be nice to everyone at all times. :cloud9:

j/k

That's a VERY nice signature you have there! :chuckle:

Nietzschean
March 23rd, 2004, 12:54 PM
I seem to recall a certain long-haired pacifist saying "this is my commandment, love eachother." :think:

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

I seem to recall a certain long-haired pacifist saying "this is my commandment, love eachother." :think:

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 01:11 PM
What is the most loving thing you can do to a person who does not believe in God?

Drown them. Yeah. Like The Cell.

That's what God did. And we want to be God-like, don't we?

It's illogical.

And you are hated so you have a closer walk with God?
Hitler is hated.
Pol Pot is hated.
John Wayne Gacy is hated.

Are they walking hand in hand with God?

The way that Enyart takes a relatively beautiful religion and turns it into venom is in lines with that of a serpent.
I don't say that of many people, but I believe he is truly evil in his twisting of the Bible, as well as leading others away from God.

Christ said, "you make your converts twice as fit for hell as you are yourselves" when speaking to the Pharissees."

For his sake, I pray that his God truly is merciful.

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy
For his sake, I pray that his God truly is merciful.
God is only merciful to those who repent. Those who don't, He throws into hell forever.

Nietzschean
March 23rd, 2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

Nietzschean
March 23rd, 2004, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

:thumb:

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

I'm waiting for your answer.

Chileice
March 23rd, 2004, 01:23 PM
Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgement but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

Chileice
March 23rd, 2004, 01:25 PM
Hey Clete, sorry I called you Clint. It was a mistake but might have been a Freudian slip for all I know. "Go ahead, make my day!"

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Further, I would like you to explain to me this approach, using the actions of Jesus.

Now, Jesus didn't need to come for the saved. That would be preaching to the choir.

So what did he do?
In your "this is how you do it," you say that you should tell someone that they disgust you, to be killed, that they don't deserve God, etc.

Not once do you offer an out, a solution, the truth of God, the grace and mercy or forgiveness of God.

You simply damn them.

And this is the way to go?

And if someone came up to you, and started yelling, "You aren't worshipping Shiva! You disgust me! If it was legal, I would kill you with a crowbar right now, in the name of Shiva!"

Would YOU want to convert?

You don't offer God.
You offer your own condemnation.

I'm sure that makes the one you serve very happy.

Nietzschean
March 23rd, 2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgement but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

:thumb:

Scottb
March 23rd, 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs. People here are not beating and killing homo`s, or you would hear about it every minute on the new`s, just like the mathew shepard story.

Scottb
March 23rd, 2004, 02:09 PM
We are to rebuke the wicked, are we not.

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert!
And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You deserve to be put to death.

You were saying, Scott?

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

<cough>

Kiwicottonball
March 23rd, 2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Scottb

People here are not beating and killing homo`s, or you would hear about it every minute on the new`s, just like the mathew shepard story.

We don't hear about these things anymore because there is probably just too much violence in the US/World to fit it all in an hour segment. Matthew Shephard isn't the only person, no way.

Or perhaps it's that we don't want to give violent bigots any more publicity, since the majority of the time these loud hateful spewings are just attention getting behavior.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

<cough> See post #8.

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 03:56 PM
1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "
8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Did Jesus first condemn him, call him a thief, as the tax collectors were?

Or did he first show kindness, and in his kindness, also changed the heart of Zaccheus?

And the judgement of the non-sinners?
That Jesus was a fool going to the house of a sinner.
They thought he was being "Nicer than God", I imagine.

So, again, I ask you, how is this attack on people in following with your Christ?
And what can it possibly gain?

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 04:44 PM
beanieboy,

Zacchaeus was clearly had a repentant and humble heart. Jesus could plainly see it. Any third-grader reading the story should be able to see it, too. He was seeking after the Lord, and he ever is recorded calling Him "Lord."

Jesus called sinners to repent. You can't tell someone they need to repent without calling him a sinner, which is offensive to most people (like you).

To those who were repentant, those with humble attitudes toward Him, He was gentle.

To those who were hard-hearted toward Him, putting their own beliefs above His commandments which were revealed through the prophets, He was quite harsh.

You, beanieboy, are among the latter. You reject the truth of God in favor of what is right in your own eyes.

If you think Clete is harsh, wait until you meet God. He is not merciful toward those who reject His mercy.

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 04:48 PM
1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

Where exactly is he repentant?
He wanted to see Jesus.
Where was Jesus harsh to the sinner?

You are adding things that aren't there.
I read nowhere "Jesus could see Zaccheus' heart..."

Personally, I think the point was to show the high and mighty that he came for the sinners, so they should put down their stones and self righteousness, and reach out in kindness.

Jesus is Nicer than God.

As for me?
You don't know my heart.

Nor to YOU listen to your own holy text.
Christ spoke of an arrogant Pharissee, thanking God he was not like the adulterers, the thieves, and THAT tax collector...
But the tax collector was humble before God, and said, "Have mercy on me, a sinful man."

You do not know my heart.
Although I have shown the fruit of it.

I would be careful on damning people to hell, because that is how you will be judged.
If you look coldly on others, and condemn them, so shall you be judged.
But if you look upon people with mercy, so shall you have mercy.

But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

Kiwicottonball
March 23rd, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy


But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

I can only imagine.

beanieboy
March 23rd, 2004, 05:08 PM
The story of the man who owed a great sum, and was forgiven his debt, but refused to forgive the debt owed to him, which was much smaller?

It's so surreal coming here, and not believing the Bible is the word of God, necessarily, but having to use it to point it out to Christians, who more or less, contradict it.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

Where exactly is he repentant?
He wanted to see Jesus.
Where was Jesus harsh to the sinner?He had no reason to be harsh to Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus sought after Jesus and called Him Lord.


You are adding things that aren't there.
I read nowhere "Jesus could see Zaccheus' heart..."It is obvious that Jesus was able to perceive such things.


Personally, I think the point was to show the high and mighty that he came for the sinners, so they should put down their stones and self righteousness, and reach out in kindness.You're interpretation "adds things" just as much as mine.

Did Jesus speak against the death penalty altogether? No. Jesus upheld all of God's commandments. They were His commandments, after all. He didn't come to testify against Himself.


Jesus is Nicer than God.No. Jesus IS God.


As for me?
You don't know my heart.You boast about your perversion and claim that it is not sinful.


Nor do YOU listen to your own holy text.
Christ spoke of an arrogant Pharissee, thanking God he was not like the adulterers, the thieves, and THAT tax collector...My holy text says to warn the wicked.


But the tax collector was humble before God, and said, "Have mercy on me, a sinful man."How I wish you were like him! You are not humble before God. You deny your sin. You need to humble yourself before the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sinful ways, and ask Him for mercy.


You do not know my heart.
Although I have shown the fruit of it."You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16



I would be careful on damning people to hellI don't have the authority to damn you to hell. But because you reject Christ, you are condemned already (John 3:18 note the red lettering).



because that is how you will be judged. If you look coldly on others, and condemn them, so shall you be judged.
But if you look upon people with mercy, so shall you have mercy.

But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.Now you are judging my heart, hypocrite.

Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No!

If I were cold toward you, I would remain silent while you wallow in your sin. I'm trying to get you to wake up so that you might repent... so that God can be merciful toward you.

I was a sinner until three years ago when I accepted Christ as my Lord and the mercy He offers through the blood He shed on the cross. Now though I still frequently sin in my flesh, I am identified in Christ and His righteousness. I have no righeousness of my own.

Lovejoy
March 23rd, 2004, 06:08 PM
This is an interesting "discussion". Perhaps gays do deserve death, but then so do we all, do we not? If the harshness of your approach stumbles one who might come, where are you? Christ says that He did not come to judge, but to save. Otherwise He would have destroyed to world, not His own life. On the otherhand, if we are so soft that we end up as the Corinthians did, we are under judgement. The episcopalians and united methodists are in trouble, for sure. Can we be soft of heart and yet have an unyielding sense of right and wrong? Can we judge someone worthy of death and yet lay down our life that they might be saved? Christ did. I plan on beating my breast and asking "why I am worthy, a sinner?"

Freak
March 23rd, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

God is only merciful to those who repent. Those who don't, He throws into hell forever. It is self evident that you're a novice in regards to understanding God's Word for it declares...

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

God's kindness first upon a sinner brings them to Him.

Freak
March 23rd, 2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Turbo


Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No!

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?


I was a sinner until three years ago when I accepted Christ as my Lord and the mercy He offers through the blood He shed on the cross. Now though I still frequently sin in my flesh, I am identified in Christ and His righteousness. I have no righeousness of my own. As a baby believer, who still feeds off milk, stop making anti-Christ statements such as this:

Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No.

God's Word militates against you:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance.

God's kindness to the sinner (those who were unrepentant) brings them to Him.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 06:49 PM
Freak,
Do unrepentant homosexuals who reject Christ go to Heaven when they die?

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

Did you even read the article?

All three of these were repentent! And even if that could be argued (which it can't) Jesus was hardlt sweet and friendly to the woman at the well. It may be no big deal to be accused of sleeping around today but I assure it was then. Jesus was very direct and didn't pull any punches with the truth, if people responded rightly then He was quick to forgive if not then He was equally quick to condemn and to be intentionally offensive.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgment but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

What are you talking about?
Did you even read the article?
Who said anything about extermination?
By your logic we shouldn't even execute murders!

And frankly I don't really care if they repent or not? I would prefer that they do but that's not the reason for stigmatizing them or at least not the primary one.
They are criminals and as such they are dangerous in many ways to everyone around them. Homosexuality should be recriminalized, restigmatized and preached against in that order. The criminal code teaches the entire society what is right and what is wrong, stigmatization of a behavior offers strong peer pressure toward the prevention of such behavior wherever it stigmatized, and local preaching and other form of personal persuasion are effective in one on one situations when the perpetrators intentions and attitudes can be specifically determined.
When I am in a public forum, the only one of these three forces that I can personally bring to bear is the second and so I do not hesitate to do so. My intent is not primarily to engender repentance in the homo's case but to impact those around him and myself in such a way as to cause them to think twice before associating or participating with homo's.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Further, I would like you to explain to me this approach, using the actions of Jesus.

Now, Jesus didn't need to come for the saved. That would be preaching to the choir.

So what did he do?
In your "this is how you do it," you say that you should tell someone that they disgust you, to be killed, that they don't deserve God, etc.

Not once do you offer an out, a solution, the truth of God, the grace and mercy or forgiveness of God.

You simply damn them.

And this is the way to go?

And if someone came up to you, and started yelling, "You aren't worshipping Shiva! You disgust me! If it was legal, I would kill you with a crowbar right now, in the name of Shiva!"

Would YOU want to convert?

You don't offer God.
You offer your own condemnation.

I'm sure that makes the one you serve very happy.

Did you even read the article?

See previous post. My intent is not specifically to casue them to repent. To plant a seed of guilt perhaps but that is all. They will not repent anyway unless their guilt is communicated. You would have me try to get them saved before they even understand that they're lost.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

You deserve to be put to death.

What crime have I committed? Homo's commit what God defines as a capital crime everyday and brag about it! I do not say that they should be executed lightly or flipantly! I mean precisely what I say and have Scripture to back it up.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

beanieboy,

Zacchaeus was clearly had a repentant and humble heart. Jesus could plainly see it. Any third-grader reading the story should be able to see it, too. He was seeking after the Lord, and he ever is recorded calling Him "Lord."

Jesus called sinners to repent. You can't tell someone they need to repent without calling him a sinner, which is offensive to most people (like you).

To those who were repentant, those with humble attitudes toward Him, He was gentle.

To those who were hard-hearted toward Him, putting their own beliefs above His commandments which were revealed through the prophets, He was quite harsh.

You, beanieboy, are among the latter. You reject the truth of God in favor of what is right in your own eyes.

If you think Clete is harsh, wait until you meet God. He is not merciful toward those who reject His mercy.

Thanks Turbo! I was getting behind on responding! I guys gotta work sometime ya know!

GREAT Avatar! I love it! :thumb:

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy
But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

I was not forgiven by God until I repented and I am likewise willing and happy to forgive if and when someone repents, not before.

Further, it is you who is being haughty not me! I do what I do with measured intent and purpose and my harshness is reserved for those who have shown cause to deserve it. You on the other hand misrepresent or don't understand what you are even ranting about! You don't mind giving me a hard time but heaven forbid that we hurt a homo's feelings.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

The story of the man who owed a great sum, and was forgiven his debt, but refused to forgive the debt owed to him, which was much smaller?

It's so surreal coming here, and not believing the Bible is the word of God, necessarily, but having to use it to point it out to Christians, who more or less, contradict it.

Do you even understand what REPENTANT means?

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Lovejoy

This is an interesting "discussion". Perhaps gays do deserve death, but then so do we all, do we not? If the harshness of your approach stumbles one who might come, where are you? Christ says that He did not come to judge, but to save. Otherwise He would have destroyed to world, not His own life. On the otherhand, if we are so soft that we end up as the Corinthians did, we are under judgement. The episcopalians and united methodists are in trouble, for sure. Can we be soft of heart and yet have an unyielding sense of right and wrong? Can we judge someone worthy of death and yet lay down our life that they might be saved? Christ did. I plan on beating my breast and asking "why I am worthy, a sinner?"

We are not talking about sin in general we are talking about criminal behavior. Homo's should be executed because they have committed a capital crime.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 08:23 PM
Freak,

As usual, you are wrong.

Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Lovejoy
March 23rd, 2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are not talking about sin in general we are talking about criminal behavior. Homo's should be executed because they have committed a capital crime.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I got nothin' to match the wrath that an unrepentant gay will face, and as such, will spend my life seeking their repentance. As well, I will not keep fellowship with a Christian who refuses to repent of sexual sin, including homosexuality. What else can I do? I would willing die for the Name, so I don't see execution as much of a threat. I think persecution of gays just makes them more militant anyway.

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Lovejoy

I got nothin' to match the wrath that an unrepentant gay will face, and as such, will spend my life seeking their repentance. As well, I will not keep fellowship with a Christian who refuses to repent of sexual sin, including homosexuality. What else can I do? I would willing die for the Name, so I don't see execution as much of a threat. I think persecution of gays just makes them more militant anyway.

Who cares? Let them be militant! It's a better thing for them to be as evil as can be than for them to be able to assimilate into your community without the slightest resistance! Stop worrying so much about the homo's state of mind and worry more about YOUR family that they are working to destroy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Aussie Thinker
March 23rd, 2004, 09:07 PM
Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 09:50 PM
:shocked: Uh-oh, Clete! He figured you out. :rolleyes:

Aussie Thinker
March 23rd, 2004, 09:52 PM
Yep.. why else would you give a rats behind about what fags want to do with their lives !

Granite
March 23rd, 2004, 10:32 PM
If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Yep.. why else would you give a rats behind about what fags want to do with their lives ! Then you must be a closet Creationist. :hammer:

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

:darwinsm:

Clete
March 23rd, 2004, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?

helmet84
March 23rd, 2004, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

Do you have a link where I can read about this?
-- helmet84

Lucky
March 23rd, 2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.
:noway:

Aussie Thinker
March 23rd, 2004, 11:15 PM
Turbo,


Then you must be a closet Creationist.

TOUCHE ! Good one !

I only have fixation with YECers as I feel they attempt to undermine learning and education.

I am not sure how homosexuals effect us in any way ?

Turbo
March 23rd, 2004, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by helmet84

Do you have a link where I can read about this?
-- helmet84 It's no secret. Call him on air or off, and he'd probably tell you all about it. In fact, he might even put you on the line with his stepson he "abused." He's done that before.

Crow
March 23rd, 2004, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

He has. Numerous times on his TV shows, tapes, etc.

wholearmor
March 23rd, 2004, 11:33 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

:darwinsm:

This from an Aussie "Thinker!"

:darwinsm:

Aussie Thinker
March 23rd, 2004, 11:40 PM
How does Enyart defend his 3 marriages.

I have NO religious belief yet I hold the vows I made in my marriage to be sacred.

I would forgive 1 mistake but not 2 (or 3).

I made a fair dinkum commitment to someone else and it would be pissweak of me to bail out on it.

It a true sign of the man’s poor character !

wholearmor
March 23rd, 2004, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

How does Enyart defend his 3 marriages.

I have NO religious belief yet I hold the vows I made in my marriage to be sacred.

I would forgive 1 mistake but not 2 (or 3).

I made a fair dinkum commitment to someone else and it would be pissweak of me to bail out on it.

It a true sign of the man’s poor character !

Do you even know one iota of Enyart's story?

Granite
March 24th, 2004, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?

Uh, Clete? Time out. I didn't accuse him of anything. These are the facts: Enyart was convicted of child abuse and has been married three times.

Show me an instance where I've defended perversion and I'll call it a day. Unless criticism of Enyart is somehow an attack on morality.
:granite:

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

Uh, Clete? Time out. I didn't accuse him of anything. These are the facts: Enyart was convicted of child abuse and has been married three times.

Show me an instance where I've defended perversion and I'll call it a day. Unless criticism of Enyart is somehow an attack on morality.
:granite:

I didn't say that you accused him; I said that you threw the accusations around. Besides, it doesn't matter if the accusations are true or not, does it? You don't bother to give any of the details surrounding the child abuse charges and make no reference to the fact that he doesn't like that he destroyed his own family any more than you do. In other words, it makes no difference to you that he has clearly repented of that which destroyed his family and wasn't guilty of child abuse in the first place. All you care about is smearing the reputation of a Godly man specifically for the purpose of scoring points against me in a discussion about whether it is right or wrong to stigmatize homo's.
So I say it again! You take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I know that Bob was convicted in a court of child abuse. I also know that he was acquitted on the same charge. He has two son’s that he had spanked. He had two separate trials both with the same evidence, the same testimony, same prosecutor and same judge. In one he was acquitted the other he was convicted. The only difference was the juries; one was more liberal than the other. In any case, spanking is not child abuse regardless of what the law says and I therefore say that he was not guilty of child abuse in the first place.

P.P.S. Do you have anything that is on topic to bring to bear against my position? Or is attacking Bob Enyart the best that you can do?

Granite
March 24th, 2004, 07:48 AM
I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.

Which he would tell you himself!

You act as if he's being disengenuous or something.
He would also tell you that if this country did execute adulterers as they should then the circumstances that led to his families distruction would never have happened in the first place
WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT!

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 09:20 AM
Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

Can anyone back me up on this?

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm not saying that you can't judge.

But if you judge on appearances, well, that is the measure that you will be judged on.

If you judge quickly, so will you be judged.

But if you carefully weigh things, you will be judged with careful weight of all things.

That's all I'm saying.

I probably can't judge you because I don't know you.
But I can judge what you have said.

And I did.
You offered only condemnation, "You make me sick! You don't deserve God!" but offer nothing more.
No mercy.
No hope.
Not even suggestion for change.
Simply a dead end.

I see a very angry, wrathful person who wishes others dead according to Lev. Law.

I see someone who is more a diciple of Enyart than Christ.
Enyart is very good at twisting the bible to make it into anything he wants, and then he gets converts, like you.

That is why I think he is so evil. He cuts people off from God.

Matthew 23

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[1]

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 10:03 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

Can anyone back me up on this?

First of all it was Turbo that mentioned the 8 year old not me. It's okay though, I agree with Turbo!

Secondly, it simply doesn't matter. No one is saying that being harsh is appropriate in every situation. It's perfectly legitimate to be nice if one feels that it will get you somewhere by doing so. What is being said is that one should not be nicer than God and that being harsh is a very effective means of getting people to open their eyes as well as an effective way of deterring sin in others and that this tactic was used frequently by several if not all of the prophets and by God Himself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Agreed.

Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.

Chileice
March 24th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?


You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Agreed.

Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.

See post #1

Read the article!

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Chileice

You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.

We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

See post #1

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

Granite
March 24th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

See post #1

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.

Zakath
March 24th, 2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either. I think it's interesting how seldom people with such attitudes are placed in positions where they have to put their actions where their mouths go.

If you discovered two of your employees engaging in homosexual activity in the supply closet, would you flog them or kill them because the Bible says so?

If you discovered two of your married employees engaging in heterosexual liaison (i.e. adultery) in the rest room, would you kill them because the Bible says so?

:think:

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 10:56 AM
I have read the article.
Many times.
It's been on the site for years.

The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

All of these are followers of Jesus, or teachers of the law.
Not sinners.

Can you describe what not showing mercy means to you?
Please describe it in detail.
Give examples how how one should treat the unrepentant.

One of your suggestions is to execute them, so that God can then send them to hell.
That's the harsh judgement I was talking about.
It seems that more than that, you would want the person to enter heaven by praying for a change of heart, not seal their fate.

So, I'm confused.
Can you explain how one should act?

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 11:00 AM
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 11:01 AM
But I tell you: Love your enemies[ 5:44 Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,

This is following with the practices of Buddha.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 01:09 PM
If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit. That may seem like an outrageous claim but I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you. This is why God said it is a crime not simply a sin. The same is true of adultery for many of the same reasons.
I do not suggest that we take the law into our own hands and start lynching people. Criminal justice is the pervue of the governing authorities and if they do not live up to their responsibilities then we will be harmed and they will answer to God for that. But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so.
So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them. Either way, do not tolerate it. If you don't have the authority to fire them, then dislike them in such a way as they know that they are disliked. If need be quit and work somewhere else. The point being, do what you can to communicate that their behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence then allow the offense to work its ministry.
The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law. Baring that however, we must get them as close to that as we are able even if the closest we can come is to hurt their feelings and separate ourselves from them.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 02:01 PM
Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit.

Oh, yes. I see a future where government forces invade our homes and drag the children off to fag farms.


I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you.

I learned about the secret Let's Destroy the Family meetings that are attended by every gay person from watching Jerry Falwell. How'd you hear about this ?


But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so. . . . So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them.

I think this is an admirable strategy. To be effective, we are going to have to expose the lies of our opponents, such as the one who said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - you know, that guy who broke bread with publicans and sinners and who rebuked those who were offended? This public enemy must be discredited, for we must, as you say, "communicate that their (sinners) behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence . . ."


In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them.

Brilliant! Fire them for being fags, but hide the real reason and claim it was for another reason. Of course, that means we're going to have to discredit the one who said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness . . ."


The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law.

What insight! How I have longed for a return to the days of forced confession, and the sweet incense of scorched flesh as the repentant fag is sent by us to his eternal reward in heaven

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! te

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

I've read the article.
I've pointed to places in the bible where it explains that it is the antithesis of what Jesus says.

Do you put Enyart above the Bible?
Remember, Satan quoted the bible when tempting Jesus.
You can twist it for any purpose.
Including justifying hatred for other people.

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 02:15 PM
10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Not exactly tough love, huh?

Granite
March 24th, 2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.

Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.

Nietzschean
March 24th, 2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 03:06 PM
And I would be happy to go over it piece by piece and point out the flaws of logic.

He's good, Enyart.
"Even the devil quotes scriptures for his purpose."
For Enyart, it is a call to mistreat anyone who he deems unworthy.

It's the antithesis of christianity. It's much more along the lines of Pharisee thinking.

I still can't figure out how loving someone as much as you love another translates into yelling at them, wishing them to be executed, saying they make you sick, and turning on your heels.

I have yet to understand how, despite the numerous posts from different posters, saying that if you are forgiven, how treating others in condemnation for being sinners is in contradiction with the words of Christ.

We all keep asking you questions, and you have no answers.

Turbo
March 24th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners... ...to repentence. See Luke 5:32

(or see Mark 2:17 or Matthew 9:13 in a translation based on the majority text.)

Turbo
March 24th, 2004, 04:00 PM
beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?

Nietzschean
March 24th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Turbo: I do. :)
But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?

Biblical Scholars, who studied who spoke, to whom, look at translation, and look at it responsibly are unable to say for sure.
Half say it definitely condemns it.
The other half say that it was referring to idol practices of pagan temples.
So, if those studying that much and believing in it differ, then, no, I don't.

And those who say that it is black and white don't study it that intensely.

beanieboy
March 24th, 2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

Turbo: I do. :)
But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

The thing that always sticks with me it the strange insinuation that if only I become heterosexual, I will make it into heaven.

Chileice
March 24th, 2004, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

You are right about my point. But what worries me more is that Clete and the writer of the article don't get the point of the Bible. Yes, Clete, I read the whole painful article. It is written by someone with some kind of complex.

You and he are not READing scripture, you are reading INTO it. So many of the verses quoted are so out of context. So many times the writer asserts sarcasm when one would have to be present to determine such an attitude. A sarcastic jaded hateful person might be able to read sarcasm into some passages, but it is a refection of their own pain rather than a reflection of God's grace.

If anyone should understand grace, it should be one forgiven. Jesus' harshest comments (as you point out) were for the Pharisees... self-righteous religious bigots. He WAS gracious and kind to the hurting and to the sinful. He even healed people for whom we have no record of repentance. He even healed ungrateful people like 9 out of the 10 lepers. I have no doubt he would heal AIDS patients whether they were likely to be thankful or repentant or not.

You are missing the whole point of the incarnation. God became man, yet without sin. He was the only one not to sin. He only came out of MERCY. A word sadly lacking in your vocabulary. MERCY and GRACE. If you are based on the law, you are a judaizer, not a Christian. If you think we are here to harrang people into the kingdom... I don't think we are headed for the same kingdom. To say the Bible does not teach us to love the sinner but hate the sin is an outright lie. Go read Jude 22 and 23. You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3.

I do not hate you or despise you, but I do pity you. I feel you have missed out on the joy of the eternal life Christ has promised to those who believe. Pray for those who persecute you for those who are lost and trust that Christ will bring them to his throne of grace. Please re-examine the New Testament with a heart that is not full of judgement and bitterness. Look through the Spirit´s eyes and not through Bob's mouth.
Blessings.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.

What are you talking about?

When have gotten hysterical. You bring up accusations and I defend against them, you say something that is wrong, I say so. It seems that it is you who cannot stand the heat. You deal with it! I can do this all day long! Just keep in mind that you will give an account for every idol word you speak. I recommend that you make sure you know what you are talking about before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.

You missunderstood what I meant when I said that. I know he disagrees with Bob's position. What I don't understand is how he get Bob's position so backward! He is arguing against things that neither I nor Bob have said or advocate. It is literally as if he hasn't read the article.

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 07:01 PM
Great Article Clete! I agree taht at times harshness is needed there is a line that should not be crossed. Softness robs people of the true meaning of Chrisitanity. It dilutes the truth.

But.... From most of the people I have talked to they would rather listen to some one who is respectful and at times harsh then down right rude.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

And I would be happy to go over it piece by piece and point out the flaws of logic.

He's good, Enyart.
"Even the devil quotes scriptures for his purpose."
For Enyart, it is a call to mistreat anyone who he deems unworthy.

It's the antithesis of christianity. It's much more along the lines of Pharisee thinking.

I still can't figure out how loving someone as much as you love another translates into yelling at them, wishing them to be executed, saying they make you sick, and turning on your heels.

I have yet to understand how, despite the numerous posts from different posters, saying that if you are forgiven, how treating others in condemnation for being sinners is in contradiction with the words of Christ.

We all keep asking you questions, and you have no answers.

You have not asked a single question that I have not answer numerous times!

You keep asking the same questions I keep giving the same answers and will continue do so.

Yelling at someone can very easily be the most loving thing that can be done if the situation is appropriate.

And it is interesting that you condemn Bob and I for being condemning. And you think I am contradicting Christ?

Jesus said to let not you love be hypocrisy, HATE what is evil!

You could say to God, "I love you."
He might ask in response, "Oh is that right? Well, what do you think of the devil?"
If you responded, "Lord, I do my best to love everyone!"
then I can guarantee you that God would say "In that case, I don't want anything to do with your love, hypocrite!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

The thing that always sticks with me it the strange insinuation that if only I become heterosexual, I will make it into heaven.

Are you a HOMO?

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

Great Article Clete! I agree that at times harshness is needed there is a line that should not be crossed. Softness robs people of the true meaning of Christianity. It dilutes the truth.
Finally! Someone who gets it!


But.... From most of the people I have talked to they would rather listen to some one who is respectful and at times harsh then down right rude.

It all depends. When the situation calls for it then respect is appropriate. At other times, like dealing with people who are engaged in or defending what God calls capital crimes then respect is the last thing one should show both for their sake and for yours and everyone else around.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 07:18 PM
I have it on good authority that BeanieBoy is member of the homo sapien sapiens species. Shocking, but true.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Chileice
You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3.
You are a liar!
You could not possibly have read the article and said anything like this statement right here. No one has even suggested that we should be out flogging and killing people! In fact I have said the reverse three times now myself!
If I am wrong and you have read it then I consider your having made this statement an intentional lie.
I recommend reading it again. And this time try taking your own advice and don't read into it, just read it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Turbo
March 24th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Duder

I have it on good authority that BeanieBoy is member of the homo sapien sapiens species. Shocking, but true. Not only that, but he has sex with other men.

And for some reason, he's afraid to admit that the God of the Bible, in whom he doesn't even believe, plainly calls such behavior as grievously sinful.

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way.

Aussie Thinker
March 24th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Clete,

You have to get a grip on reality son.

You advocate that the law should punish those who transgress YOUR interpretation of religious laws.

Islamic State anyone !

Has it ever dawned on you that people like me KNOW your stupid God does not exist.. if you try and force me to live by your ridiculous religious laws you better bring a big gun !

I don’t give a rats about what fags do to other consenting fags.. but I DO care about nuts like you who want ME to live in a Fundamentalist State !

Chileice
March 24th, 2004, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

You wrote this. You appear to be supporting the killing of homosexuals (by the government, of course, that you elect and support) Would YOU pull the trigger?

I did reread the article as you asked. It still is a far cry from the New Testament I have read dozens of times in my 30 years as a Christian. If I had thought Jesus was meaner than the Devil; I probably wouldn't have asked him to forgive my sins and come into my life because he would have been a bigger clod than I was.

To say uncategorically that Jesus was rude is bunk. He himself said at least three times that the greates commandment in the Bible was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbour as yourself. We don't hang ourselves for our own sins because we love ourselves enough not to. We should let GOD be God. Maybe if we stopped trying to usurp his role the world could see more clearly what he is up to. If I have to defend God, how big is He? I do not have to defend him. I love him and trust him... including his judgement.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way.

The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option. However, imposing a strong social stigma very definitely is an option and it is by far the most effective thing we can do to mitigate their destructive influence on our society and on our own families. The point being is that there are more important issues than the salvation of a particular homo. Being nice is not only not in the Bible it is dangerous.
Oh and by the way, before everyone goes nuts quoting scriptures about kindness and love, neither of those things are the same as being 'nice'. 'Nice' is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Chileice
March 24th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way. :thumb:

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option. However, imposing a strong social stigma very definitely is an option and it is by far the most effective thing we can do to mitigate their destructive influence on our society and on our own families. The point being is that there are more important issues than the salvation of a particular homo. Being nice is not only not in the Bible it is dangerous.
Oh and by the way, before everyone goes nuts quoting scriptures about kindness and love, neither of those things are the same as being 'nice'. 'Nice' is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

This is where i have to disagree with you because it goes against the law. Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul. Also, it doesn't matter if the governement does kills them or not, they are dead any ways. The government just kills their bodies, not their soul.It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement.

Aussie Thinker
March 24th, 2004, 07:53 PM
Clete,


The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option.

You are one mixed up loon.

Can you stop being a heterosexual.

I would LOVE for you to be given the power and the right to personally execute these “criminals”.. I would LOVE to see you stand there and blow some poor dudes brains out because YOU think what he does is wrong.

YOU wouldn’t do it.. yet you expect society to “deal” with the “problem”

You fail as human on so many levels it’s a Joke…

Society would be far better of without you than a million fags !

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

You wrote this. You appear to be supporting the killing of homosexuals (by the government, of course, that you elect and support) Would YOU pull the trigger?
I do not support the election of governing officials. And actually, in cases wher it would apply, the family of the offended party gets first dibs of not only choosing the method of execution but participating in it if they wish. Baring that, there would be no shortage of volunteers in a society were the laws were of such a nature.


I did reread the article as you asked. It still is a far cry from the New Testament I have read dozens of times in my 30 years as a Christian. If I had thought Jesus was meaner than the Devil; I probably wouldn't have asked him to forgive my sins and come into my life because he would have been a bigger clod than I was.
You still don't get it! No one is suggesting that one should be meaner than God! Just that we should not be afraid of intentionally offending people if the situation calls for it which it often does! As things are now, homo's and the like are running toward hell and most Christians wave as they pass and say "We love you...want to come to church with us?" It's discusting! I would prefer that we tackle them and break their legs (figuratively speaking)! They would like it at the time, but the swift decent into hell might at least be slowed.


To say uncategorically that Jesus was rude is bunk. He himself said at least three times that the greates commandment in the Bible was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbour as yourself. We don't hang ourselves for our own sins because we love ourselves enough not to. We should let GOD be God. Maybe if we stopped trying to usurp his role the world could see more clearly what he is up to. If I have to defend God, how big is He? I do not have to defend him. I love him and trust him... including his judgement.
Then you agree! Homo's should be executed upon conviction in a public and painful way. That's God's perscription for the homo, not mine!
Have the guts to do and say what is right and stop worry about who's feeling you're going to hurt! Or as Bob would say, do right and risk the consequences.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete,



You are one mixed up loon.

Can you stop being a heterosexual.

I would LOVE for you to be given the power and the right to personally execute these “criminals”.. I would LOVE to see you stand there and blow some poor dudes brains out because YOU think what he does is wrong.

YOU wouldn’t do it.. yet you expect society to “deal” with the “problem”

You fail as human on so many levels it’s a Joke…

Society would be far better of without you than a million fags !

God says otherwise. I think I'll stick with Him.
Having you as an enemy suggests that I'm on the right track.

And by the way, I would never shoot a homo in order to execute him. Stoning is far more painful as would having him drawn and quartered or any number of other things. Simple torture would be unjust but shooting is too painless. And yes I would participate if called upon to do so, or if the criminal had victimized a member of my family.

Turbo
March 24th, 2004, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul... It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement. Do you advocate the same strategy for dealing with murderers?

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 08:08 PM
Clete,

I'm not understanding your over violent approach to homosexuals. I think that yes they should be punished, but that's God's right, not ours.

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Do you advocate the same strategy for dealing with murderers?


do I advocate the same strategy for dealing with murders? Hmmm.....yes. I do. I would look pretty stupid if I didn't.

Turbo
March 24th, 2004, 08:18 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

do I advocate the same strategy for dealing with murders? Hmmm.....yes. I do. I would look pretty stupid if I didn't. So I take it you are against capital punishment altogether.

You also said, "It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement."

Just to clarify, should the government punish any criminals in any way?

Should the government even categorize any actions as "criminal?"

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

This is where i have to disagree with you because it goes against the law. Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul. Also, it doesn't matter if the government does kills them or not, they are dead any ways. The government just kills their bodies, not their soul.It is God's place to pose judgment. Not mine, not yours, and not the government.

Anomaly,

I have the feeling that you are a new Christian and so will walk through this with you but please try to think this through carefully.

First of all, I said that executing the homo is not an option at this time. That is precisely because it is against the law.

Secondly, as to your question concerning their having additional opportunities to be saved, that is not our concern. God commanded that we execute murders, adulterers, homos, and a selection of other criminals. It is not our place to question God's judgment in these matters. We are commanded not to show mercy in the execution of criminal justice. Further, half the people who are executed justly in the Bible repented before they died. That’s a way higher percentage than we have repenting today!

Thirdly, as for judging others, we are commanded over and over to judge. We are to judge with righteous judgment not as the hypocrites do. The quickest possible way to become a hypocrite is to judge someone for judging.
Here, read this...
"Judge Rightly" Is Not Some Guy's Name (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/judge.shtml)

Resting in Him,
Clete

lost anomaly
March 24th, 2004, 08:23 PM
You've got me. I am young which you may have already figured out. I got to now so i'll reply later.

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 08:28 PM
Beanieboy -


Not only that, but he has sex with other men.

And for some reason, he's afraid to admit that the God of the Bible, in whom he doesn't even believe, plainly calls such behavior as grievously sinful.

I have no idea what your sexual orientation is - but in responce to attacks and accusations against alleged homosexuals . . . well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

As an honorary homosexual, I will stand with my brothers when the Sozos and the Jeffersons and the Cletes attack them. Heck, I might even take my wife and kids and go down to the next Gay Pride parade. And I will offer prayers on behalf of the homophobes, who don't know what they are doing.

I call upon all good Christian and non-Christian men to join me in becoming honorary homosexuals. For "inasmuch as you do it unto them, you do it unto me."

Aussie Thinker
March 24th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Clete,


God says otherwise. I think I'll stick with Him.

So you think he says.. I don’t think he even exists.. why should I abide by your primitive ideas of law ?


Having you as an enemy suggests that I'm on the right track.

Yet most of society thinks YOU are the criminal not the fags


And by the way, I would never shoot a homo in order to execute him. Stoning is far more painful as would having him drawn and quartered or any number of other things. Simple torture would be unjust but shooting is too painless. And yes I would participate if called upon to do so, or if the criminal had victimized a member of my family.

That is the biggest load of Bull I have ever heard. I have seen someone getting stoned (on film).. it was sickening… if you could throw a stone and watch it smash someone’s head and the blood fly you would regret it for the rest of your miserable life.

But factor in this.. who is the Victim you would be defending.. the member of your family who participated in consensual relations ?

They would be the next in the stoning ring !! YOU IDIOT !

Besides WHO decides on the guilt ????? Ever heard of Salem ???

Duder,


..well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

I am with you bro… I never thought I’d say it but I am homosexual too.. (just don’t tell the missus)

Granite
March 24th, 2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What are you talking about?

When have gotten hysterical. You bring up accusations and I defend against them, you say something that is wrong, I say so. It seems that it is you who cannot stand the heat. You deal with it! I can do this all day long! Just keep in mind that you will give an account for every idol word you speak. I recommend that you make sure you know what you are talking about before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

"We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either."

This was the rationale used by the inquisition to torture and execute so-called heretics. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Aussie -

Thanks, and welcome aboard.

Ya know, you're kind of cute when you get angry!

Freak
March 24th, 2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Freak,
Do unrepentant homosexuals who reject Christ go to Heaven when they die?

Anyone who rejects Christ goes to eternal hell. Now, let's get back to the Bible...

So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Is it God's kindness towards sinners (those who are unrepentant) that leads to repentance?

Freak
March 24th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

As usual, you are wrong.



Resting in Him,
Clete Hardly, especially when I line up my life with the Lord Jesus who declared:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Did God send His Son to condemn the world (the unrepentant) or to save the world, in light of this passage?

Freak
March 24th, 2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Or as Bob would say, do right and risk the consequences.

Resting in Him,
Clete This is your problem, Clete, you'd rather quote a man rather then God. Focus your eyes on Jesus not on enyart. Can you do this?

Aussie Thinker
March 24th, 2004, 08:54 PM
Duder... No I aint.. LOL

But I DO look good in a dress !




How bad is Clete when Freak is looking good compared to him ?

Freak after your posts in here perhaps I have misjudged you a bit.. I still can't hold to that excorcism stuff.. but maybe you "think" you are doing the right thing.

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Indeed - Freak does himself great credit in these posts.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by granite1010

"We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either."

This was the rationale used by the inquisition to torture and execute so-called heretics. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

It clears up one thing for sure.
You are either intentionally ignorant of the issue being disciussed or you are too stupid to understand it.

I have already said that torture (even of criminals) is unjust.
The execution of "heretics" is also unjust. It is not a crime to not believe in God. And no, it was not the rational used by the inquisitor. The rational was simply preservation of power by those not justly in places of authority. It was about keeping an ignorant public in ignorance. You should learn your history before shooting your mouth off about it.

Stop posting these ridiculous wastes of time and think about what you are saying before you say it. I wasn't kidding about having to give an account for every idle word you speak.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Freak
March 24th, 2004, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Chileice to Enyartian Clete

You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3. Clete's Jesus is Enyart, that is the problem with him. He has a sinful Jesus. No wonder he's confused.


Look through the Spirit´s eyes and not through Bob's mouth.
Blessings. :crackup:

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Clete -


The rational (of the inquisitors ) was simply preservation of power by those not justly in places of authority. It was about keeping an ignorant public in ignorance. You should learn your history before shooting your mouth off about it.

Some of the inquisitors sincerely believed they were performing a valuable service to God and to the sinner they tortured. It was felt that pain and suffering drove one to God - and so any confessions that were obtained under torture were valid. If the sinner did not confess and repent, he was burned alive on the theory that it was better to suffer unspeakable physical agony on the stake (which might cause the sinner to call out to God in repentence) than to burn in hell forever.

It does seem similar in some respects to your own theory.

And before you accuse me of not studying history, I majored in it.

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Freak

This is your problem, Clete, you'd rather quote a man rather then God. Focus your eyes on Jesus not on enyart. Can you do this?

You stupid idiotic fool! Do you suppose God would disagree with such a statement?

You make me want to vomit!

Are you proud of yourself? You have joined sides with self proclaimed homo's and they like you for it!

How does it feel to get accolades from gutter slime homo's in your statements against Christians?

You are simply the worst and most destructive example of a Christian I have ever come across.
Every post you made so far on this thread has been sinful and destructive. I for one will ignore you from this point on. Entertain your homo friends if you feel so inclined.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 24th, 2004, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Duder

Clete -



Some of the inquisitors sincerely believed they were performing a valuable service to God and to the sinner they tortured. It was felt that pain and suffering drove one to God - and so any confessions that were obtained under torture were valid. If the simmer did not confess and repent, he was burned alive on the theory that it was better to suffer unspeakable physical agony on the stake (which might cause the sinner to call out to God in repentence) than to burn in hell forever.

It does seem similar in some respects to your own theory.

And before you accuse me of not studying history, I majored in it.

Who cares what your perverted mind studied?
The point is that it has zero to do with what I have stated on this thread. I have stated and repeated that such activity is unjust but your perverted mind can't wrap around the facts can it?

Duder
March 24th, 2004, 09:26 PM
Come on over, Freak. Join us honorary homosexuals.

Paul of Tarsus called himself a "miserable sinner", even though we know that he was a pretty ethical fellow.

And identifying with the oppressed is a very Christian virtue!

Mateo
March 24th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Beloved Clete,

I have watched with a strange mixture of humor and horror as you have repeatedly castigated me as being a legalist and then watched you suggest that "the law" should execute. Yes, Jesus saved His harshest rebukes for the Pharisees but remember why...




























Hypocracy

Mateo
March 24th, 2004, 10:21 PM
From the pen of Bruce Cockburn...


Everyone loves to see justice done...


















on somebody else

OMEGA
March 24th, 2004, 10:27 PM
I read the nicer than God article and

it seems to me that it is Written for the Modern Day

Worldly Churches that make a show of Religion

but scratch the surface and they are just carnal people

putting on a Nicey Nicey Act.

A sincere Christian has the Self Control to withstand

the Chidding and name calling of others without Reviling

them back.

But a Nicey Nicey phony Christian will be nice to their faces

and Seek Revenge or Say Vulgar things and gossip about

the Evil person behind their backs.

That is the Difference.

(Mat 5:44 KJV) "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;"

(Mat 5:45 KJV) "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."




:angel:

Lighthouse
March 25th, 2004, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Bull****! Yes homosexual acts disgust me, but the creations of God themselves I am not disgusted by, anymore than I am disgusted by myself. [I have my own perversions that I am dealing with by trusting in God to deal with them] I agree with your first post, at least the part I read, but loving your neighbor means something. And the fact that your only mention of God is that He is their enemy, or that they don't deserve to...you know what you typed...is sad and pathetic! Not once does that statement above mention that God loves them or that He died for them, or that He did not create them for such depravity and He wants to save them and change their hearts and minds to His will, so that they will want to live according to His will, so they can be His forever, in Paradise with Him. I wonder who you've made twice the son of hell, that you are...

Chileice
March 25th, 2004, 06:32 AM
Here are some verses (in context) that deal with this whole issue. Perhaps we should all read them and reflect. They are from I Thessalonians 5:

12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The truth IS that we are to abstain from evil but to be at peace with all. We warn those who are out of line but we also encourage them and put ourselves at peace with them, and not only with supposed fellow-believers but with all people... not rendering evil for evil. Hate does not make homosexuals right, it just makes the hater wrong.

Here is the very verse Clete loves to quote... "abhor what is evil" ...but in its context. This is from Romans 12:

Behave Like a Christian
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It is amazing that when you read the verse in its context, it sounds NOTHING like the Enyart article makes it sound. Please, Clete, I beg you as a Christian who sees such good in you to please let the Spirit speak to you instead of Bob. I'm not saying Bob can't say good things. I don't know him. But don't let him be your final judge of scripture.

Note something here as well. It says WHAT is evil... not WHO is evil. We have all done evil. We should hate gluttony, lying, cheating, robbery, adultery, and all the other sins as much as we hate homosexuality. Why? because it makes us less than what we could be. Really another person's homosexuality does me as little harm as their gluttony. If we preached the fullness and abundant life that Christ offers instead of "headhunting" I think more people would want to live the Christian life. We can still warn people of the dangers of their sins whether it be the danger of AIDS for the homosexual, the danger of diabetes for the glutton, the danger of lost friendships to the gossip. But we can love them and let God be their (and my) judge.

Thanks Clete.

Granite
March 25th, 2004, 06:47 AM
"You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!"

This is the height of arrogance and a sickening display of vanity.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 07:41 AM
Mateo,

I don't remember you ever having posted something that was completely stupid until now. Two in a row!

Please try to stay on topic!

Criminal justice and social stigmas against perverted behavior have nothing to do with religious legalism. I’m not talking about what it takes for them to be saved. Even a Christian who commits adultery should be executed if convicted and that's whether they repent or not. And today in a society that will not even prosecute them, they should not even be associated with until they repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Bull****! Yes homosexual acts disgust me, but the creations of God themselves I am not disgusted by, anymore than I am disgusted by myself. [I have my own perversions that I am dealing with by trusting in God to deal with them] I agree with your first post, at least the part I read, but loving your neighbor means something. And the fact that your only mention of God is that He is their enemy, or that they don't deserve to...you know what you typed...is sad and pathetic! Not once does that statement above mention that God loves them or that He died for them, or that He did not create them for such depravity and He wants to save them and change their hearts and minds to His will, so that they will want to live according to His will, so they can be His forever, in Paradise with Him. I wonder who you've made twice the son of hell, that you are...


God is not going to throw their sin into Hell, He will throw them into Hell. Hate the sin and love the sinner is not a Biblical concept. It is their heart that is wicked and which produces the evil actions. Your kind of love throws hot grease on the slippery slope that they are already sliding down toward hell.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 08:09 AM
"Mateo,

I don't remember you ever having posted something that was completely stupid until now. Two in a row!

Please try to stay on topic!

Criminal justice and social stigmas against perverted behavior have nothing to do with religious legalism. I’m not talking about what it takes for them to be saved. Even a Christian who commits adultery should be executed if convicted and that's whether they repent or not. And today in a society that will not even prosecute them, they should not even be associated with until they repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete "


Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

You're head for a fall friend lest you repent of this...

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Chileice

Here are some verses (in context) that deal with this whole issue. Perhaps we should all read them and reflect. They are from I Thessalonians 5:

12 And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, 13 and to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all.
16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.
19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies. 21Test all things; hold fast what is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
25 Brethren, pray for us.
26 Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss.
27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren.
28 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

The truth IS that we are to abstain from evil but to be at peace with all. We warn those who are out of line but we also encourage them and put ourselves at peace with them, and not only with supposed fellow-believers but with all people... not rendering evil for evil. Hate does not make homosexuals right, it just makes the hater wrong.

Here is the very verse Clete loves to quote... "abhor what is evil" ...but in its context. This is from Romans 12:

Behave Like a Christian
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. 10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another; 11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer; 13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
17 Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It is amazing that when you read the verse in its context, it sounds NOTHING like the Enyart article makes it sound. Please, Clete, I beg you as a Christian who sees such good in you to please let the Spirit speak to you instead of Bob. I'm not saying Bob can't say good things. I don't know him. But don't let him be your final judge of scripture.

Note something here as well. It says WHAT is evil... not WHO is evil. We have all done evil. We should hate gluttony, lying, cheating, robbery, adultery, and all the other sins as much as we hate homosexuality. Why? because it makes us less than what we could be. Really another person's homosexuality does me as little harm as their gluttony. If we preached the fullness and abundant life that Christ offers instead of "headhunting" I think more people would want to live the Christian life. We can still warn people of the dangers of their sins whether it be the danger of AIDS for the homosexual, the danger of diabetes for the glutton, the danger of lost friendships to the gossip. But we can love them and let God be their (and my) judge.

Thanks Clete.

I appreciate the intent of you post but I very much disagree with it.
Would you invite a murderer into your home? Or a rapist?
Are you not in agreement with God, that such men should be executed? God has commanded the governing officials to execute homosexuals and adulterers and murderers and the like. Would you have us allow them to play catch at the local park with our children?
NO! They are criminals! And treating them otherwise does them no favor and destroys the fabric of our society! I have no quarrel with the Bible saying not to repay evil for evil, I just that I think that being nice to criminals is evil! Evil people should be told that they are evil. If they act as if that information is sinking in THEN you tell them that there is hope in Christ for even them. But attempting to get someone saved before they have any idea that what they are doing is wrong is putting the cart before the horse and is counterproductive in about a dozen different ways, not the least of which is that it puts your family at risk!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Mateo

"Mateo,

I don't remember you ever having posted something that was completely stupid until now. Two in a row!

Please try to stay on topic!

Criminal justice and social stigmas against perverted behavior have nothing to do with religious legalism. I’m not talking about what it takes for them to be saved. Even a Christian who commits adultery should be executed if convicted and that's whether they repent or not. And today in a society that will not even prosecute them, they should not even be associated with until they repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete "


Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Psa 18:25 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful; with an upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright;
26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
27 For thou wilt save the afflicted people; but wilt bring down high looks.

You're head for a fall friend lest you repent of this...

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Exd 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Lev 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

These are but a few of the laws that God commanded that we have in place concerning perverts.

Our society refuses to practice such criminal justice unfortunately. However, Paul’s society refused to put the sexually perverted to death as well. What was his instructions on how we should treat people who are involved in such behavior?

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Also concerning believers who are caught in such behavior…

I Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even *named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord *Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed *for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

Resting in Him,
Clete

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by Duder

Come on over, Freak. Join us honorary homosexuals.




Originally posted by Duder

Indeed - Freak does himself great credit in these posts.

Wow! Freak's true colors are showing more than usual in this thread.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Duder

I have it on good authority that BeanieBoy is member of the homo sapien sapiens species. Shocking, but true.

Yes, it's true.

No only am I a client, I the owner.

Unfortunately, that is all I am to half of the posters.
So it's hard to take them seriously.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Duder

Beanieboy -



I have no idea what your sexual orientation is - but in responce to attacks and accusations against alleged homosexuals . . . well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

As an honorary homosexual, I will stand with my brothers when the Sozos and the Jeffersons and the Cletes attack them. Heck, I might even take my wife and kids and go down to the next Gay Pride parade. And I will offer prayers on behalf of the homophobes, who don't know what they are doing.

I call upon all good Christian and non-Christian men to join me in becoming honorary homosexuals. For "inasmuch as you do it unto them, you do it unto me."

Now that is love.
You stand by those who misuse the bible to justify hate.
You do not hate the persecuters, but pray for a change of heart.

Well done.

On Fire
March 25th, 2004, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

[gulp] I agree.

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 10:10 AM
Ok Clete,

I think I'm beginning to see what the dillema is here. You see yourself as being outside the law by right of your doctrinal beliefs and yet you see someone who commits a sexually immoral act as being under the law by right of that act regardless of thier beliefs. This is a real head-scratcher to me.

For some reason you are making a distintion between sexual immorality and any other actionable sin for reasons I can't fathom but the bottom line is this what you have said in this threads has been discussed by Jesus.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Mateo

Ok Clete,

I think I'm beginning to see what the dillema is here. You see yourself as being outside the law by right of your doctrinal beliefs and yet you see someone who commits a sexually immoral act as being under the law by right of that act regardless of thier beliefs. This is a real head-scratcher to me.

For some reason you are making a distintion between sexual immorality and any other actionable sin for reasons I can't fathom but the bottom line is this what you have said in this threads has been discussed by Jesus.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 10:20 AM
Last night, I thought a lot about this.
Bus strike, long walk.
And I thought about the awful poisin pen that Enyart has, his ability to convince others to be as vile as he is, and then turns loose a legion of demons. You can see Clete quoting Enyart right and left, from his Hate the Sinner writing, his misuse of "abhor what is evil" pointed about by another poster, etc.

And this is what God/The Universe said:
Cast your seeds on the ground.
Sometimes, they fall on hard ground.
It is your responsibility to cast the seeds, not make the seeds grow.

And I think that is where we are.
I think you have a very hard heart, Clete.
Numerous posters are trying to show you the error of your ways, christians and non christians alike.
I mean, Freak and I even agree on something.
And you are responding in lies.
Freak does not support homosexuality.
But his plan is to reach out. His plan is to offer change, to offer saving grace and mercy.
I respect that.

But I think you have no desire to listen.
You, like the Pharisees, are condemning those that do such things, as they condemned Christ for eating with the sinners and taxcollectors, as Jesus was condemned by Simon for not pushing away the prostitute.

So, I think that you are a distraction from concentrating on the positive, a person who engages in arguement for its own sake to waste others' time.

I thank you for this lesson that you have taught me.
I pray that your heart will be opened to love, and that you will know love.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

[gulp] I agree.

Don't agree with him! He's an idiot!

ALL PEOPLE, that is you and me and everyone else is damned to hell apart from faith is Christ, homo's included. People who commit the crime of having sex with a person of the same gender should be executed. If they repent and accept Christ before their execution has carried out then they will be saved just as the theif on the cross was but that doesn't mean that their sentence should not still be carried out.

Resting in Him,
Clete

On Fire
March 25th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Don't agree with him! He's an idiot!

ALL PEOPLE, that is you and me and everyone else is damned to hell apart from faith is Christ, homo's included. People who commit the crime of having sex with a person of the same gender should be executed. If they repent and accept Christ before their execution has carried out then they will be saved just as the theif on the cross was but that doesn't mean that their sentence should not still be carried out.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Why is the sin of homosexuality worse than others sins?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Don't agree with him! He's an idiot!

ALL PEOPLE, that is you and me and everyone else is damned to hell apart from faith is Christ, homo's included. People who commit the crime of having sex with a person of the same gender should be executed. If they repent and accept Christ before their execution has carried out then they will be saved just as the theif on the cross was but that doesn't mean that their sentence should not still be carried out.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Is that a quote from the Gospel?

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 10:33 AM
"I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?"


No. Do you think that a thief should be given an opportunity to repent and be shown mercy?

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Why is the sin of homosexuality worse than others sins?

All sins are not equal.

Is murder worse than stealing a candy bar?


John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is that a quote from the Gospel?

John 3
18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Why is the sin of homosexuality worse than others sins?

The short answer is because it is not simply a sin but a crime.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 10:47 AM
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

You forgot that part.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The short answer is because it is not simply a sin but a crime.

Not believing in God isn't a crime, just a sin?

What is the result of not believing in God?
Can the nonbeliever say before God, 'Come on, dude, it's not like I committed a crime.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Mateo

"I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?"


No. Do you think that a thief should be given an opportunity to repent and be shown mercy?

Theives are not to be executed but whether or not they repent, they should be made to pay restitution in punichment for their crime.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 10:51 AM
Cut to the chase, Clete.
What is the point you are driving at.

Bottom line: You want to post Nicer than God to advocate for capital punishment (or punichment) for all OT death penalties (which include nonvirgin brides and disobedient children.) Right?

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

You forgot that part.

Those who come to God through Jesus will be saved. Those who do not are condemned.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Shimei

Those who come to God through Jesus will be saved. Those who do not are condemned.

How many dead people come to God through Jesus?

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 11:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Mateo

"I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?"


No. Do you think that a thief should be given an opportunity to repent and be shown mercy?



Theives are not to be executed but whether or not they repent, they should be made to pay restitution in punichment for their crime.






You didn't answer my question, Clete.

Lovejoy
March 25th, 2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Exd 22:19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Lev 20:12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

These are but a few of the laws that God commanded that we have in place concerning perverts.

Our society refuses to practice such criminal justice unfortunately. However, Paul’s society refused to put the sexually perverted to death as well. What was his instructions on how we should treat people who are involved in such behavior?

Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Also concerning believers who are caught in such behavior…

I Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even *named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord *Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed *for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner--not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."

Resting in Him,
Clete

I am confused with this. This is exactly the process I use. It says to judge believers (those inside) so as to keep holy the fellowship of Christ and keep people from stumbling. By that, it simply means to force from the church those that are unrepentant, in certain sins, until they repetant. But it also specifically says that once they are outside, God judges. That is the whole punishment. It is not for us, as Christians, to judge the outside world. Paul even states that we are not to break off from contact with the unsaved the way we would an unrepetant brother, because we would have to up and leave the earth to do it. Essenes we are not. Why, then, would I want to be a part of bringing some brutal legal system into play? If that is what God wants (the rulers are supposedly His) then He will do it. Where is your faith? Use that passion of yours to take care of our screwed up churches and fellowship, and leave the abominations outside to God. You will drive yourself crazy trying to run every one of them down.

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

How many dead people come to God through Jesus?

You better do it while you are alive, DUH!

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:08 AM
In that vein, how can one reach out to the unsaved by not associating with them?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Shimei

You better do it while you are alive, DUH!

That's not what Clete wants.

It's kind of Hitler-esque.
I'm sure Jews had the small window of time to come to Jesus, but I'm sure it made them turn more to Yahweh.

He wants total control.
He wants everyone to believe what he believes, and those who don't will be eliminated.

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

In that vein, how can one reach out to the unsaved by not associating with them?

You love them enough to warn them.

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

That's not what Clete wants.

It's kind of Hitler-esque.
I'm sure Jews had the small window of time to come to Jesus, but I'm sure it made them turn more to Yahweh.

He wants total control.
He wants everyone to believe what he believes, and those who don't will be eliminated.

Clete would like a government that is based on Biblical principles. Murder and adultery and homosexuality would be a crime with the punishment of death. Those who are charged with those crimes can still come to know Jesus before they are put to death.

It would not be a crime to deny Jesus and you would not have to be a Christian.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:22 AM
But isn't not believing in Jesus or being a Christian something that would make a soul live eternally in hell?

So, why is that not a crime?

And would disobedient children also be put to death, according to OT law?

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.

:thumb:

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You missunderstood what I meant when I said that. I know he disagrees with Bob's position. What I don't understand is how he get Bob's position so backward! He is arguing against things that neither I nor Bob have said or advocate. It is literally as if he hasn't read the article.

Ah I see.
Thanks for clearing that up. :)

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by lost anomaly

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way.

Woohoo another advocate for me! :D

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Turbo

So I take it you are against capital punishment altogether.

You also said, "It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement."

Just to clarify, should the government punish any criminals in any way?

Should the government even categorize any actions as "criminal?"

I'd have to say no. :)
But then again I don't think there should be a government..

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Duder

Beanieboy -



I have no idea what your sexual orientation is - but in responce to attacks and accusations against alleged homosexuals . . . well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

As an honorary homosexual, I will stand with my brothers when the Sozos and the Jeffersons and the Cletes attack them. Heck, I might even take my wife and kids and go down to the next Gay Pride parade. And I will offer prayers on behalf of the homophobes, who don't know what they are doing.

I call upon all good Christian and non-Christian men to join me in becoming honorary homosexuals. For "inasmuch as you do it unto them, you do it unto me."

I'm with you in this one Duder! :D

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Bull****! Yes homosexual acts disgust me, but the creations of God themselves I am not disgusted by, anymore than I am disgusted by myself. [I have my own perversions that I am dealing with by trusting in God to deal with them] I agree with your first post, at least the part I read, but loving your neighbor means something. And the fact that your only mention of God is that He is their enemy, or that they don't deserve to...you know what you typed...is sad and pathetic! Not once does that statement above mention that God loves them or that He died for them, or that He did not create them for such depravity and He wants to save them and change their hearts and minds to His will, so that they will want to live according to His will, so they can be His forever, in Paradise with Him. I wonder who you've made twice the son of hell, that you are...

Let's give this rational one a round of applause! :thumb:

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

But isn't not believing in Jesus or being a Christian something that would make a soul live eternally in hell?

So, why is that not a crime?

And would disobedient children also be put to death, according to OT law?

People like to call other people criminals and down other people's ways of life. This is mainly because people want to be right. But in the same token, people want to be accepted for their falts. This is mainly because people want to be loved. This is why Christians look down on homosexuality but will divorce their spouses if the money gets low. And they'll still consider themselves good Christians.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by granite1010

"You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!"

This is the height of arrogance and a sickening display of vanity.

And we all know who loves Vanity! :D

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

But isn't not believing in Jesus or being a Christian something that would make a soul live eternally in hell?

So, why is that not a crime?

And would disobedient children also be put to death, according to OT law?

Because not accepting Jesus and judging souls is for God to administer and judge. Murder and homosexuality are crimes that God administered man to judge through the system of government.

Exodus 21:15
"And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 21:17
"And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Mateo,

I don't remember you ever having posted something that was completely stupid until now. Two in a row!

Please try to stay on topic!

Criminal justice and social stigmas against perverted behavior have nothing to do with religious legalism. I’m not talking about what it takes for them to be saved. Even a Christian who commits adultery should be executed if convicted and that's whether they repent or not. And today in a society that will not even prosecute them, they should not even be associated with until they repent.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I have to agree with you Clete. If you're gonna pick at it, take it all the way! :thumb:

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:37 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I appreciate the intent of you post but I very much disagree with it.
Would you invite a murderer into your home? Or a rapist?
Are you not in agreement with God, that such men should be executed? God has commanded the governing officials to execute homosexuals and adulterers and murderers and the like. Would you have us allow them to play catch at the local park with our children?
NO! They are criminals! And treating them otherwise does them no favor and destroys the fabric of our society! I have no quarrel with the Bible saying not to repay evil for evil, I just that I think that being nice to criminals is evil! Evil people should be told that they are evil. If they act as if that information is sinking in THEN you tell them that there is hope in Christ for even them. But attempting to get someone saved before they have any idea that what they are doing is wrong is putting the cart before the horse and is counterproductive in about a dozen different ways, not the least of which is that it puts your family at risk!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Did not Jesus dine with beggars - who were criminals, prostitutes - who were criminals, and does He not have two thieves beside His throne, the two who believed in Him as He died on the cross? It seems to me that you're wanting to pick and choose which Bible verses to use, so that you can further your position and down the position of others.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

[gulp] I agree.
I knew you would!
Because when we all get around to play Devil's Advocate, you can't argue with loopholes! :chuckle:

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:40 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The short answer is because it is not simply a sin but a crime.
So is murder, theft, lying, etc. Why is homosexuality worse than those?

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Shimei

All sins are not equal.

Is murder worse than stealing a candy bar?


John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."
Nice way to take it out of context! So let it forever be known that delivering the Saviour Jesus Christ - if you ever get the chance - is the worst possible sin you could do! Actually we can't even say that, since the Bible verse is comparing THAT sin to a SPECIFIC other sin. Nice way to take the Scriptures out of context!

:thumb::chuckle:

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?

I think it should be legal to steal, murder, lie, rape, and all those other 'bad things,' and that people should be bound by whatever religious creeds they have to not do them, or to do them, or whatever the case may be. But hey, I'm an Anarchist and that makes me stupid by default yes? But remember: bull**** makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Cut to the chase, Clete.
What is the point you are driving at.

Bottom line: You want to post Nicer than God to advocate for capital punishment (or punichment) for all OT death penalties (which include nonvirgin brides and disobedient children.) Right?

I hope that's what he's saying. Otherwise he's an incomplete hypocrite. :)

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

That's not what Clete wants.

It's kind of Hitler-esque.
I'm sure Jews had the small window of time to come to Jesus, but I'm sure it made them turn more to Yahweh.

He wants total control.
He wants everyone to believe what he believes, and those who don't will be eliminated.

Yep.

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

Nice way to take it out of context! So let it forever be known that delivering the Saviour Jesus Christ - if you ever get the chance - is the worst possible sin you could do! Actually we can't even say that, since the Bible verse is comparing THAT sin to a SPECIFIC other sin. Nice way to take the Scriptures out of context!

:thumb::chuckle:


My point was that all sins are not equal. Jesus said that one particular sin was greater than another.

You are having trouble following this?

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Shimei

My point was that all sins are not equal. Jesus said that one particular sin was greater than another.

You are having trouble following this?

Not at all. :)
But the fact remains that you did use it out of context. That's all I alleged.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:49 AM
Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2).

Romans 12 we have already seen.
The quote from Chr?

2 Chronicles 19
1 When Jehoshaphat king of Judah returned safely to his palace in Jerusalem, 2 Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet him and said to the king, "Should you help the wicked and love [1] those who hate the LORD ? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is upon you. 3 There is, however, some good in you, for you have rid the land of the Asherah poles and have set your heart on seeking God."

And from that, Enyart gets that you should hate nonchristians.

It's kind of the way the devil tempted Jesus.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:50 AM
And from Jesus' commandmant "love eachother," I get that we should love everyone.

Jesus > Enyart. gg no re

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Shimei

My point was that all sins are not equal. Jesus said that one particular sin was greater than another.

You are having trouble following this?

Is the sin of not believing in Jesus enough to go to hell?
Isn't that "equal"?

So, why is it not a crime?

Enyart, by the way, believes in killing all the atheists.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is the sin of not believing in Jesus enough to go to hell?
Isn't that "equal"?

So, why is it not a crime?

Enyart, by the way, believes in killing all the atheists.

It's interesting to note that, accordnig to Enyart, everyone who doesn't agree with what God is - that is, the Judeo-Christian (and protestant American, to be specific) Alpha Male in the Sky™ - can be freely called an atheist. This means the Jews, the Muslims, the pagans, the agnostics, the Taoists, the Shinto, the asatru -- they're all atheists, despite how much they believe in their differing rendition of the Deity figure.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Like I said - Hitler

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Hitler was a Christian, actually. Unless you believe the schtik that he was in the Illuminati.

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

Hitler was a Christian, actually. Yeah, right. And so is Bill Clinton. :rolleyes:

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Yeah, right. And so is Bill Clinton. :rolleyes:

One can't sin and be a christian.
That's right.

Please forgive us, of Perfect One.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Yeah, right. And so is Bill Clinton. :rolleyes:
The difference between Clinton and Hitler was that Hitler sincerely thought he was doing God's work by killing off all of the Jews. It could even be argued that he was; the Bible does say that the Jews would be put through great oppression and suffering, and who's to say that Hitler's Final Solution wasn't the fulfillment of prophecy? And if this is the case, and Hitler was working under God's prophecy, then he could very well be a Christian. The only thing that makes his soul beyond redemption is the fact that he comitted suicide.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

One can't sin and be a christian.
That's right.

Please forgive us, of Perfect One.

"Let he who has no sin in his heart case the first stone."

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:21 PM
Four days after the Oklahoma City bombing, at a national Christian Identity gathering in Missouri, W.N. Otwell, who runs an armed compound in east Texas, spoke. "You go look in the Old Testament," he said. "God did not mind killing a bunch of women and kids. God talks about slaughter! Don't leave one suckling! Don't leave no babies! Don't leave nothing! Kill them!" Sadly, he's quite correct; that is indeed God's message.

from:
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/aah/radford_10_3.htm

Now, is that the non-Nicer than God we are going for?

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Yep yep.

Kill the men, the women and children; take the girls to be your wives.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by Mateo

quote:
Originally posted by Mateo

"I can't beleive that you are this knuckle headed!
Do you think that it should be legal to steal?"


No. Do you think that a thief should be given an opportunity to repent and be shown mercy?



Theives are not to be executed but whether or not they repent, they should be made to pay restitution in punichment for their crime.






You didn't answer my question, Clete.
Yes, I did. Read it again.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:29 PM
No, you didn't. I read it again. ;)

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

One can't sin and be a christian.I never said that.


Please forgive us, of Perfect One.
You are the one who claims that the God presented in the Bible does not condemn homosexual behavior and lust as sinful. You don't even believe the Bible is God's word, so why are you afraid to acknowledge what it plainly states?

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Lovejoy

I am confused with this. This is exactly the process I use. It says to judge believers (those inside) so as to keep holy the fellowship of Christ and keep people from stumbling. By that, it simply means to force from the church those that are unrepentant, in certain sins, until they repetant. But it also specifically says that once they are outside, God judges. That is the whole punishment. It is not for us, as Christians, to judge the outside world. Paul even states that we are not to break off from contact with the unsaved the way we would an unrepetant brother, because we would have to up and leave the earth to do it. Essenes we are not. Why, then, would I want to be a part of bringing some brutal legal system into play? If that is what God wants (the rulers are supposedly His) then He will do it. Where is your faith? Use that passion of yours to take care of our screwed up churches and fellowship, and leave the abominations outside to God. You will drive yourself crazy trying to run every one of them down.

Why did you only read the second half of the post?
The first quote from Rom. 1 says explicitly that is God's judgment that homo's, adulterers etc. deserve death!
It is not for us to decide! God has decided for us. He as said that you shall surely be put to death if you're a homo not me and far be it from me to argue with God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:36 PM
www.whosover.org.

A theologian goes over it in detail, talking about who was spoken to, translation of the words, etc.

The limited passages that discuss it don't "clearly" oppose homosexuality.

Why can't you admit that religious scholars disagree?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Why did you only read the second half of the post?
The first quote from Rom. 1 says explicitly that is God's judgment that homo's, adulterers etc. deserve death!
It is not for us to decide! God has decided for us. He as said that you shall surely be put to death if you're a homo not me and far be it from me to argue with God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I thought all have fallen short from the glory of God.
Tell me I'm lying.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

I thought all have fallen short from the glory of God.
Tell me I'm lying.

:)

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

That's not what Clete wants.

It's kind of Hitler-esque.
I'm sure Jews had the small window of time to come to Jesus, but I'm sure it made them turn more to Yahweh.

He wants total control.
He wants everyone to believe what he believes, and those who don't will be eliminated.

You are a disgusting liar you filthy pervert!
What Hitler did had nothing to do with justice, first of all. And it's God who commands the authorities to execute criminals not me!
I don't care what others believe, it is not a crime to be an atheist. It's stupid but it’s not a crime. Which, by the way I've said three or four times now on this thread.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are a disgusting liar you filthy pervert!
What Hitler did had nothing to do with justice, first of all. And it's God who commands the authorities to execute criminals not me!
I don't care what others believe, it is not a crime to be an atheist. It's stupid but it’s not a crime. Which, by the way I've said three or four times now on this thread.

By that logic, was it not God who commanded the authorities (Hitler) to execute the criminals (Jews) who did not believe in the coming of the messiah, our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ? You seem to be able to preach about God wanting everyone to love him, and able to understand that all who don't are going to hell; but you seem to have a problem with accepting real-world genocide. Why is this? Has it not occured to you that Hell is nothing more than a polite name for mass-genodice? Believe it or not sir, Yahweh is an angry and jealous God -- He even says so in the Bible. He is worse than Hitler! Dër Fuhrer only killed one type of people; those adhering to a specific religion. Yahweh is going to have tortured, for all of eternity, everyone in the entire World who does not agree exactly with Him. If you think the Third Reich was bad, and that people talking about it and comparing God to Hitler are wrong, think how much worse Hell is going to be! You're right; Hitler was nothing liken unto God. Compared to Yahweh, Hitler was a regular Gandhi.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

So is murder, theft, lying, etc. Why is homosexuality worse than those?

Perjury is a crime but lying in general is not.
Homosexuality is neither better or worse (in my opinion) that murder. They both carry the death penalty although for different reasons. I'm not interested in educating you as to the difference it should be somewhat intuative.
I should be obvious that theft is not as serious a crime as murder.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Perjury is a crime but lying in general is not.
Homosexuality is neither better or worse (in my opinion) that murder. They both carry the death penalty although for different reasons. I'm not interested in educating you as to the difference it should be somewhat intuative.
I should be obvious that theft is not as serious a crime as murder.

Rape is nothing but theft of one's innocence. And it is punishable by death.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

Clete would like a government that is based on Biblical principles. Murder and adultery and homosexuality would be a crime with the punishment of death. Those who are charged with those crimes can still come to know Jesus before they are put to death.

It would not be a crime to deny Jesus and you would not have to be a Christian.

Thank you!

I was beginning to think the whole world had gone mad!

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 12:55 PM
So, we would would stone disobedient children?

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

I think it should be legal to steal, murder, lie, rape, and all those other 'bad things,' and that people should be bound by whatever religious creeds they have to not do them, or to do them, or whatever the case may be. But hey, I'm an Anarchist and that makes me stupid by default yes? But remember: bull**** makes the flowers grow and that's beautiful.

Give me your address and I'll have someone emty your house. Leave your keys on the kitchen table so we can get your car as well. And while your at it leave some blank checks next to your keys.
You won't have much when its all said and done but since you don't mind theft, you can't really bit** about it can you?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Give me your address and I'll have someone emty your house. Leave your keys on the kitchen table so we can get your car as well. And while your at it leave some blank checks next to your keys.
You won't have much when its all said and done but since you don't mind theft, you can't really bit** about it can you?

That's not exactly loving your neighbor as yourself, but certainly not Nicer than God.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2).

Romans 12 we have already seen.
The quote from Chr?

2 Chronicles 19
1 When Jehoshaphat king of Judah returned safely to his palace in Jerusalem, 2 Jehu the seer, the son of Hanani, went out to meet him and said to the king, "Should you help the wicked and love [1] those who hate the LORD ? Because of this, the wrath of the LORD is upon you. 3 There is, however, some good in you, for you have rid the land of the Asherah poles and have set your heart on seeking God."

And from that, Enyart gets that you should hate nonchristians.

It's kind of the way the devil tempted Jesus.

Enyart does not think that we should hate nonchristians you disgusting vomitous mass of filth!
He thinks, as do I, that we should hate homo's like you which is at the same time the most loving thing possible.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 01:05 PM
hate is love.

What does the bible say about calling light darkness and darkness light?

Again, I pray for love and peace in your heart.
And I thank you for teaching me patience, for forcing me to return evil with peace, to return name calling with blessing. Thank you.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Give me your address and I'll have someone emty your house. Leave your keys on the kitchen table so we can get your car as well. And while your at it leave some blank checks next to your keys.
You won't have much when its all said and done but since you don't mind theft, you can't really bit** about it can you?

2814 Baldwin
Tyler, TX 75702


Of course, I am assuming that you will be sending non-Christians and non-Jews and non-Muslims to do this, since all thread of those religions have a creed that forbids stealing. As such, I will reserve the right to kill every single one of them that you send, and claim that I am fighting the good fight by killing the infidels. I'll even have legal jurisprudence, since here in Texas you can kill someone (and claim self-defense) once they're inside your house. Sounds like a good o' time, lemme dust off the old Smith & Wesson.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is the sin of not believing in Jesus enough to go to hell?
Isn't that "equal"?

So, why is it not a crime?

Enyart, by the way, believes in killing all the atheists.

You are more stupid than I know how to express!
Enyart has never advocated killing of atheist! That's rediculous! Can you produce anything to back up this idiotic claim? You are not only preverted but a liar!
I can't wait for judgment day!

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

I thought all have fallen short from the glory of God.
Tell me I'm lying.
No, You have this one right, you disgusting pig!
And if you do not come to Christ and repent of you perversion you will go to hell forever. You have said it yourself and are without excuse.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Clete --

Read this: Donna Summer
Reverse it: Summer Donna
Say it fast: Summa Donna
Translate: SIMMA' DOWN NAW!

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are more stupid than I know how to express!
Enyart has never advocated killing of atheist! That rediculous! Can you produce anything to back up this idiotic claim? You are not only preverted but a liar!
I can't wait for judgment day!

Am I wrong on this?
I got it from another web site.
I'm unsure, actually.

You are excited for judgement day?
You can't wait to see the evil ones tortured?

Interesting.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

No, You have this one right, you disgusting pig!
And if you do not come to Christ and repent of you perversion you will go to hell forever. You have said it yourself and are without excuse.

Ironic, then that you are so upset and angry, and I am relatively calm and pleasant.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

So, we would would stone disobedient children?

The Bible does not teach this you stupid filthy idiot! If it did, I would not hesitate to advocate it, however. What God calls a crime is a crime period, I don't have to understand or agree, just obey. But God does not command the execution of simply disobedient children.
And before you go quoting the Bible again I know what you are refering to. Suffice it to say that you don't understand it and I will not explain it to you.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 01:25 PM
The bible does call for the execution of children who continually do not obey their parents.

18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21 Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.


I don't understand it, no.
And can't imagine anyone killing their son, grown or not.

The bible is full of death penalty.
Non-virgin brides, for example.

But, I'm Nicer than God. Whaddya going to do.

Amaste.

Nietzschean
March 25th, 2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The Bible does not teach this you stupid filthy idiot! If it did, I would not hesitate to advocate it, however. What God calls a crime is a crime period, I don't have to understand or agree, just obey. But God does not command the execution of simply disobedient children.
And before you go quoting the Bible again I know what you are refering to. Suffice it to say that you don't understand it and I will not explain it to you.

Will you explain it to me?

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Am I wrong on this?Yes.

I got it from another web site.
I'm unsure, actually.Then you shouldn't have repeated it.


You are excited for judgement day?
You can't wait to see the evil ones tortured?

Interesting.
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, Psalm 58:10

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Nietzschean

Not at all. :)
But the fact remains that you did use it out of context. That's all I alleged.

:nono: :kookoo:

Servo
March 25th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Is the sin of not believing in Jesus enough to go to hell?
Isn't that "equal"?

So, why is it not a crime?

I already explained that.


Originally posted by beanieboy Enyart, by the way, believes in killing all the atheists.

I see Clete and Turbo already covered this. Enyart does NOT believe that. That was a stupid statement.

Chileice
March 25th, 2004, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Why did you only read the second half of the post?
The first quote from Rom. 1 says explicitly that is God's judgment that homo's, adulterers etc. deserve death!
It is not for us to decide! God has decided for us. He as said that you shall surely be put to death if you're a homo not me and far be it from me to argue with God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

If you continue to read Paul's argument (which runs through the end of Chapter 3) you will see that we ALL deserve death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But now, apart from the law, we are made righteous by our union through faith with Christ Jesus. Further in the same book, chapter 6 to be exact, we see this:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WE ALLLLL DESERVE DEATH. DESERVE it! But the beauty of the Gospel is we don't have to face it if we are in Christ Jesus. Look, we as Christians should be concerned to follow Christ and not live as slaves to sin. We have freedom and a choice. Why are you expecting people who are slaves to sin to live like they were Christians??!! Clete, It is YOU that doesn't get it. You are trying to force the Christian life on people who reject Christ. Not even Paul himself did that. When we were slaves to sin we were free from the law of righteousness all right but we were headed toward things that brought us pain and shame. Sin has its own reward. Neither you nor are are the rewarders of sinners. We should be worried about the logs in our own eyes and not all the specks we see floating in everyone else´s.

I can't believe how far this forum has come in just a few hours. I do hope you read the other verses I posted several pages back (page 9, I think) and have reflected on them. I know that you think because everyone is against you it proves you are "suffering for Christ", but in this case, you are suffering for having not opened your heart to the Bible. I hope some day you will soften your heart and share your journey with others.
Blessings.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Yes.
Then you shouldn't have repeated it.


The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked, Psalm 58:10

David also writes:
"Blessed are they that smash their little ones against the rocks."

Is that "loving your enemies"?

What confuses me about your love of the Vengeful God is that it doesn't make sense to me.
John 3:16 says, "for God so loved the world..." That he loved the world even while they were sinners.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 02:21 PM
I'm going to address this in a different way.

Freak, how to you lead one to Christ?
What is your process?
How do you show love to a sinner?

Or do you think loving a sinner is wrong?

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 02:28 PM
btw, I believe that I was wrong about the death to atheists and Enyart.

I was wrong.

Freak
March 25th, 2004, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You stupid idiotic fool! Do you suppose God would disagree with such a statement? Clete, Jesus would say to you:

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him.

You're void of truth because you deny God's Word and the revelation of the Lord Jesus.


You make me want to vomit! Since your a enemy of God's, that would not surprise me.


Are you proud of yourself? You have joined sides with self proclaimed homo's and they like you for it! The side I have chosen is Jesus. You have chosen Enyart and plot materials. You're a pathetic weasel.


How does it feel to get accolades from gutter slime homo's in your statements against Christians? You dead monkey, wake up!!!! Jesus loves all and desires all to come to repentance. He doesn't hate homosexuals, He loves them!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.


You are simply the worst and most destructive example of a Christian I have ever come across. Like I care what a demonized fake believer calls me.

Resting in Him,
Clete Stop resting in Satan and rest in the eternal arms of Jesus.

Freak
March 25th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

I'm going to address this in a different way.

Freak, how to you lead one to Christ?
What is your process?
How do you show love to a sinner?

Or do you think loving a sinner is wrong?

Jesus Christ mirrored the way we ought to reach sinners....He loved them, He reached out to them, He bestowed mercy & grace. Warn them of eternal hell but exhort them to reach out to God through faith in His Son-Jesus!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

beanieboy
March 25th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Do mind if I continue to ask you?

You see a guy with, I don't know, a Barbra Steisand Album, and you ask him about it and he says, "well, I am gay, after all."

And then you do what?

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

If you continue to read Paul's argument (which runs through the end of Chapter 3) you will see that we ALL deserve death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But now, apart from the law, we are made righteous by our union through faith with Christ Jesus. Further in the same book, chapter 6 to be exact, we see this:

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

WE ALLLLL DESERVE DEATH. DESERVE it! But the beauty of the Gospel is we don't have to face it if we are in Christ Jesus. Look, we as Christians should be concerned to follow Christ and not live as slaves to sin. We have freedom and a choice. Why are you expecting people who are slaves to sin to live like they were Christians??!! Clete, It is YOU that doesn't get it. You are trying to force the Christian life on people who reject Christ. Not even Paul himself did that. When we were slaves to sin we were free from the law of righteousness all right but we were headed toward things that brought us pain and shame. Sin has its own reward. Neither you nor are are the rewarders of sinners. We should be worried about the logs in our own eyes and not all the specks we see floating in everyone else´s.

I can't believe how far this forum has come in just a few hours. I do hope you read the other verses I posted several pages back (page 9, I think) and have reflected on them. I know that you think because everyone is against you it proves you are "suffering for Christ", but in this case, you are suffering for having not opened your heart to the Bible. I hope some day you will soften your heart and share your journey with others.
Blessings.

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

Do mind if I continue to ask you?

You see a guy with, I don't know, a Barbra Steisand Album, and you ask him about it and he says, "well, I am gay, after all."

And then you do what?

Try not to vomit!

Lovejoy
March 25th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I assumed it was something like that. My personal problem with Christians trying that sort of thing is that every time someone decided to wield that kind of power in connection to the church (the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church, a lot of romans), a great apostacy followed. People come to Christ freely, or not at all. I guarantee that if we start screaming for blood, it will be not at all. The early church was honored as a group of people "among whom do evil was done" and eventually took over the Roman Empire through that rep. Of course, then the romans rammed Christ down everyones throat, and eveything went to hell in a handbasket. In the US, we have a constituition that prevents that sort of thing, and a huge advantage in numbers. IF WE COULD JUST KEEP OUR CHURCHES IN LINE (you know who you are), we might actually gather a few souls. First thing first, we have to not be among the murderers, rapists, and tax cheats.

Personally, I don't give a rip about society or culture or any of that stuff. Does anyone actually believe that culture is going with us?

I don't think we are that far off from agreeing on something, but we are not there yet. Mostly policy issues, and one or two deeply embedded beliefs. Keep talking, and I will respond.

Duder
March 25th, 2004, 05:45 PM
You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!

Perhaps you should re-evaluate the extent to which the "grace" of Mr. Enyart originates in the Gospel message of Jesus.


You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues . . .

Oops - my bad. The article's ideas do not pretend to originate in the Gospel.


. . . Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

I would tend to agree if you just added, "nicer than the god of my imagination."

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 06:36 PM
I don't suppose it would be instructive to point out that Jesus is not recorded as having belittled one single Homosexual during His entire life and shamed the men who brought an adulteress before Him for stoning BEFORE forgiving her.

:think:

Chileice
March 25th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You are not talking about the same subject I am. I do not dispute grace and neither does Enyart, in fact I learned it from Enyart!
You are misunderstanding the entire point and reading more into what I and Enyart are saying that is there. Try reading the article again and don't think of it as an interpretation of the gospel message but more as a commentary on how the church has taken itself out of the game on social issues and weakened its ability to impact the society because Christians are afraid to hurt somebody’s feeling and afraid to agree with what God in His condemnation of murderers and other criminals. In short they are nicer than God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I have read the article through twice and don't feel like reading it again. As you can see, I prefer to go to the source... which is the Bible for me. I understand your point about the church being "soft on sin". But one can take a stand against sin and still be for the people we are trying to bring into Christ's kingdom. I guess we have radically different ideas of how best to present Christ to a lost world.

I'm not against getting in someone's face once in a while if we already have a relationship going and I know the person will respond in a way that is positive. However, I will never be for hating random sinners in the name of Christ and calling it the loving thing to do. It is cowardly and a way to avoid mixing with the very people Jesus spent large amounts of time with.

I don't know how we could ever PROVE which way works best. I do know that many people have come to faith in Christ through my relationship with them... wanting what I have in Christ, not responding to some rant about their sin. I still call sin sin. I talk about their sins and mine and the need for redemption. But I look at our job as II Cor. 5 points out as ambassadors for Christ. If the "ambassador" who shared Christ with me had been as ugly about me as a teenage sinner as the writer of the article purports we should be, I would probably be lost as an aligator in a blizzard.

I came to Christ because I understood I was a sinner through the passage about Achan in Joshua. Not exactly evangelism material. But it was presented in such a way that I realized I was loved and that there was a remedy for my sin. It was Jesus, not prison or flogging or the death penalty. Please consider what I say. I know I am probably just wasting time imaging anyone could be influenced by this, but I guess it is that hope that keeps me typing. I will try to leave my comments on this subject right here. I think I've just about said all I could to make my point. I hope you see it, Clete.

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Lovejoy

I assumed it was something like that. My personal problem with Christians trying that sort of thing is that every time someone decided to wield that kind of power in connection to the church (the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church, a lot of romans), a great apostacy followed. People come to Christ freely, or not at all. I guarantee that if we start screaming for blood, it will be not at all. The early church was honored as a group of people "among whom do evil was done" and eventually took over the Roman Empire through that rep. Of course, then the romans rammed Christ down everyones throat, and eveything went to hell in a handbasket. In the US, we have a constituition that prevents that sort of thing, and a huge advantage in numbers. IF WE COULD JUST KEEP OUR CHURCHES IN LINE (you know who you are), we might actually gather a few souls. First thing first, we have to not be among the murderers, rapists, and tax cheats.

Personally, I don't give a rip about society or culture or any of that stuff. Does anyone actually believe that culture is going with us?

I don't think we are that far off from agreeing on something, but we are not there yet. Mostly policy issues, and one or two deeply embedded beliefs. Keep talking, and I will respond.

Who is saying anything about cramming Jesus down anyone throat? Or calling for blood if someone doesn't believe? How do you guys keep missing the entire point! I am not talking about a typical person! I am talking about people whom God Himself calls perverts and criminals. People who God says to execute upon conviction of the crime which they themselves are proud of committing!
When someone is a pervert it does no one any good to do anything but to make certain that they know that their behavior is repugnant both to you and to God. And by the way, there is no requirement to throw in every detail of the gospel message every time you bring up their perversion. Sometimes it is far more effective to be as offensive as possible and let the offense do it ministry. Their soul is not your responsibility, especially when it concerns criminal behavior. Criminal behavior, if tolerated, is condoned and encouraged. It is therefore sinful and destructive to tolerate homos, murderers, adulterers and the like. They absolutely should not be tolerated in any sense, they should be executed! And if that is not an option then they should shunned and stigmatized so that they behavior will not spread into your community and into your very home.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 25th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Chileice

I have read the article through twice and don't feel like reading it again. As you can see, I prefer to go to the source... which is the Bible for me. I understand your point about the church being "soft on sin". But one can take a stand against sin and still be for the people we are trying to bring into Christ's kingdom. I guess we have radically different ideas of how best to present Christ to a lost world.

I'm not against getting in someone's face once in a while if we already have a relationship going and I know the person will respond in a way that is positive. However, I will never be for hating random sinners in the name of Christ and calling it the loving thing to do. It is cowardly and a way to avoid mixing with the very people Jesus spent large amounts of time with.

I don't know how we could ever PROVE which way works best. I do know that many people have come to faith in Christ through my relationship with them... wanting what I have in Christ, not responding to some rant about their sin. I still call sin sin. I talk about their sins and mine and the need for redemption. But I look at our job as II Cor. 5 points out as ambassadors for Christ. If the "ambassador" who shared Christ with me had been as ugly about me as a teenage sinner as the writer of the article purports we should be, I would probably be lost as an aligator in a blizzard.

I came to Christ because I understood I was a sinner through the passage about Achan in Joshua. Not exactly evangelism material. But it was presented in such a way that I realized I was loved and that there was a remedy for my sin. It was Jesus, not prison or flogging or the death penalty. Please consider what I say. I know I am probably just wasting time imaging anyone could be influenced by this, but I guess it is that hope that keeps me typing. I will try to leave my comments on this subject right here. I think I've just about said all I could to make my point. I hope you see it, Clete.

If you want to be nice to homo's and murderers then go right ahead. Just don't whine about it when they pass laws saying it okay for grown men to have sex with your 10 year old boy. And tell you that you have no right to know when a kidnaper moves in next door. Because that’s precisely the road this country is on. We will be a nation of child molesters and sexual predators just like Sodom.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by beanieboy

btw, I believe that I was wrong about the death to atheists and Enyart.

I was wrong. :up:

Mateo
March 25th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Okay,

One final post on this thread and then I'm done.


We live in an age in which good men are few and good leaders are even fewer. Perhaps there is good reason for this. In Christ's absence there is a void which we tend to want to fill whether conciously or otherwise.

This need leads some to gravitate toward those with a desire to lead and charisma. I found myself becoming a regular listener of a "prophet' who said much that resonated with me. My one concern was his penchant for calling people names, some within his own flock.

Eventually it came to light that this "gentleman" was making regular visits to some of the teenage girls in his charge and bilking money from his flock.

Our God is a jealous God and he is not going to honor anyone putting some man or man's doctrine before Him, and those that do set themselves up for a fall as does their leader.

I have watched as week after week Mr. Enyarts' lastest offerings are trotted out as holy writ by his followers regardless of how obviously nonscriptural said offering might be. The thread "lying for God" leaps to mind. The true believers defend his every utterance as if it came from on high without first searching scripture. This is a tragic mistake that many have made across the millenia.

Mr. Enyart has parlayed a growing concern about what is happening in our world into a license to hate others on the part of his followers and to embrace the thought that those who fall short of his doctrine are worthy of death.

As I have noted to others at TOL it will be people such as this who eventually will be emboldened kill the Lord's sheep thinking they do God a service as He prophecied.

Please consider well the path you walk... the further you go the harder it is to come back.

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

When someone is a pervert it does no one any good to do anything but to make certain that they know that their behavior is repugnant both to you and to God. And by the way, there is no requirement to throw in every detail of the gospel message every time you bring up their perversion.

Case in point: John the Baptist rebuked Herod, who was not a believer nor a religious leader, for his perversion:

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him."

Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, for John had been saying to him: "It is not lawful for you to have her." Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered him a prophet.

On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison. His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus. Matthew 14:1-12

Lovejoy
March 25th, 2004, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Case in point: John the Baptist rebuked Herod, who was not a believer nor a religious leader, for his perversion:

At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him."

Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, for John had been saying to him: "It is not lawful for you to have her." Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered him a prophet.

On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted and had John beheaded in the prison. His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus. Matthew 14:1-12

I am not disputing that it was perversion, but John rebuked him because Herod Antipas was a jew, and under Mosaic law was only allowed his brothers wife in levirate marriage. This marriage was not. All jews were under Johns care and all were under the law, making Johns rebuke very proper.

Still, I would have rebuked him any ol' way. It was his niece as well as his brothers wife! What was up with that group? Yuck.

Aussie Thinker
March 25th, 2004, 09:21 PM
Clete,


If you want to be nice to homo's and murderers then go right ahead. Just don't whine about it when they pass laws saying it okay for grown men to have sex with your 10 year old boy. And tell you that you have no right to know when a kidnaper moves in next door. Because that’s precisely the road this country is on. We will be a nation of child molesters and sexual predators just like Sodom.

That is just plain wrong…

Child molestation and sexual predation is as illegal and detested by everyone as much as it has EVER been.

The penalties for these crimes HAVE been increasing.

The day the law say it is ok for grown men to have sex with a 10 year old boy is the day the lawmakers will get thrown out by their ears !

You are trying to link the above despicable crimes with the NON CRIME of two consenting adults having sex..

That fact that you link them shows you DO have some irrational hatred of homosexuals which is usually a sign of thwarted desire or latency.

You fit the profile of a psychopath or at worst a sociopath.. religion is your thinly veiled excuse for your own perversion.. the destruction of your own inner desires.. its like you must wipe out temptation…

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Lovejoy

I am not disputing that it was perversion, but John rebuked him because Herod Antipas was a jew, and under Mosaic law was only allowed his brothers wife in levirate marriage. This marriage was not. All jews were under Johns care and all were under the law, making Johns rebuke very proper.
What do you make of this post? :readthis:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=487921#post487921


Still, I would have rebuked him any ol' way. :up:

Lovejoy
March 25th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

What do you make of this post? :readthis:

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=487921#post487921

:up:

That was pretty bad. I don't know what his sources are, but mine is Josephus. Antipas was the son of Herod the Great (half-jew, but under the law) and Malthace, a Samaritan. He was also full brother to Archelaus, who was Herod before him. Antipas was actually tetrarch over Galilee before he was Herod. Since Jews trace decendency from the father, I assume that Antipas was under the law.

BTW, his marriage to Herodius led to a series of calamaties that eventually cost his power and got him banished to Gaul. God does punish.

Turbo
March 25th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Lovejoy, I'm looking through Josephus' stuff now.

Duder
March 25th, 2004, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by AussieThinker:

Clete,

Originally posted by Clete Pfieffer:

If you want to be nice to homo's and murderers then go right ahead. Just don't whine about it when they pass laws saying it okay for grown men to have sex with your 10 year old boy. And tell you that you have no right to know when a kidnaper moves in next door. Because that’s precisely the road this country is on. We will be a nation of child molesters and sexual predators just like Sodom.

That is just plain wrong…

Child molestation and sexual predation is as illegal and detested by everyone as much as it has EVER been.

The penalties for these crimes HAVE been increasing.

The day the law say it is ok for grown men to have sex with a 10 year old boy is the day the lawmakers will get thrown out by their ears !

You are trying to link the above despicable crimes with the NON CRIME of two consenting adults having sex..

That fact that you link them shows you DO have some irrational hatred of homosexuals which is usually a sign of thwarted desire or latency.

You fit the profile of a psychopath or at worst a sociopath.. religion is your thinly veiled excuse for your own perversion.. the destruction of your own inner desires.. its like you must wipe out temptation…

Point blank and bullseye, Aussie. My POTD.