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Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 03:06 PM
What commandments do you observe and why? What do you feel or know that you are required to observe?

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 11th, 2017, 05:22 PM
What commandments do you observe and why? What do you feel or know that you are required to observe?

Shalom.

Jacob

I follow Jesus commandments and he didn't teach the old law.

The old law was a shadow of what we have in Christ.

Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 05:25 PM
I follow Jesus commandments and he didn't teach the old law.

The old law was a shadow of what we have in Christ.

What is the old law and what commandments do you follow? Why do you say that the old law was a shadow of what we have in Christ?

turbosixx
December 11th, 2017, 05:37 PM
What is the old law and what commandments do you follow?
I understand the old law to be the Mosaical law. It was never meant to be permanent.

I follow the law of Christ as found in the new testament. For example,
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;



Why do you say that the old law was a shadow of what we have in Christ?
Gal. 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Heb. 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 05:46 PM
I understand the old law to be the Mosaical law. It was never meant to be permanent.

I follow the law of Christ as found in the new testament. For example,
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally, then, brothers, we ask and urge you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, just as you are doing, that you do so more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality;
Do you call this the law of Christ? Why do you say that the old law is the Mosaical law? Why do you say that it was never meant to be permanent?


Gal. 3:23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.

Heb. 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
I do not know why you are referring to the old law or that the law is old. Can you answer why you believe that? I am interested as well about this in if you have a time you believe the law became old. You do not need to refer to an, or 'the', old law when talking about the Bible, Scripture, the Torah, or the TaNaK.

TestedandTried
December 11th, 2017, 08:39 PM
What commandments do you observe and why? What do you feel or know that you are required to observe?

Shalom.

Jacob

Hello Jacob,
All people are to observe the same scale...we all fall under the requirements of the Gospel.

Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 08:42 PM
Hello Jacob,
All people are to observe the same scale...we all fall under the requirements of the Gospel.

I do not know what you mean by this. What do you mean by this? What is "the same scale"? And, what are the requirements of the Gospel according to you or as you speak of them?

TestedandTried
December 11th, 2017, 09:50 PM
Proverbs 20:23:
The Lord detests differing weights,
and dishonest scales do not please him.

This is a Proverb; it requires understanding...but not too much...see how God uses scales in Daniel below...

Daniel 5:27:
27 Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Our Lord is just and will judge the world in righteousness. We [B]all are called by the Gospel and it is through faith in the Gospel that we are credited with righteousness.

The Gospel is the Good News of the Messiah and all the teachings found in the N.T. reinforced with the O.T.
There is no one righteous before God; we all have a sinful nature and so it is impossible for us to fulfill the Law. God gives us a new spirit when we come to faith and the Spirit guides in the paths of righteousness to love God and our fellowman and this is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:10 and Galations 5:23). Similarly it is written that the Spirit brings life; the Letter (Law) kills.--
--II Corinthians 3:6

Why do you suppose God would set you as a Jew apart to try to live up to what He found fault with...the Law?? No, we are all measured by the same scales. Those living in O.T. were measure the same way...faith in the coming Messiah. We have the record of Messiah having come and turn to the Good News He brought and are measured by that scale.

TestedandTried
December 11th, 2017, 09:53 PM
Proverbs 20:23:
The Lord detests differing weights,
and dishonest scales do not please him.

This is a Proverb; it requires understanding...but not too much...see how God uses scales in Daniel below...

Daniel 5:27:
27 Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Our Lord is just and will judge the world in righteousness. We [B]all are called by the Gospel and it is through faith in the Gospel that we are credited with righteousness.

The Gospel is the Good News of the Messiah and all the teachings found in the N.T. reinforced with the O.T.
There is no one righteous before God; we all have a sinful nature and so it is impossible for us to fulfill the Law. God gives us a new spirit when we come to faith and the Spirit guides in the paths of righteousness to love God and our fellowman and this is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:10 and Galations 5:23). Similarly it is written that the Spirit brings life; the Letter (Law) kills.--
--II Corinthians 3:6

Why do you suppose God would set you as a Jew apart to try to live up to what He found fault with...the Law?? No, we are all measured by the same scales. Those living in O.T. were measure the same way...faith in the coming Messiah. We have the record of Messiah having come and turn to the Good News He brought and are measured by that scale.

Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 09:53 PM
Proverbs 20:23:
The Lord detests differing weights,
and dishonest scales do not please him.

This is a Proverb; it requires understanding...but not too much...see how God uses scales in Daniel below...

Daniel 5:27:
27 Tekel: You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Our Lord is just and will judge the world in righteousness. We [B]all are called by the Gospel and it is through faith in the Gospel that we are credited with righteousness.

The Gospel is the Good News of the Messiah and all the teachings found in the N.T. reinforced with the O.T.
There is no one righteous before God; we all have a sinful nature and so it is impossible for us to fulfill the Law. God gives us a new spirit when we come to faith and the Spirit guides in the paths of righteousness to love God and our fellowman and this is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:10 and Galations 5:23). Similarly it is written that the Spirit brings life; the Letter (Law) kills.--
--II Corinthians 3:6

Why do you suppose God would set you as a Jew apart to try to live up to what He found fault with...the Law?? No, we are all measured by the same scales. Those living in O.T. were measure the same way...faith in the coming Messiah. We have the record of Messiah having come and turn to the Good News He brought and are measured by that scale.

There was fault with the people who broke the Law, but not with the Law.

TestedandTried
December 11th, 2017, 10:40 PM
There was fault with the people who broke the Law, but not with the Law.

Hebrews 8:7-13:
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13 B[B]y calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Where there is a covenant or say a contract that is broken by one party the covenant is severed...there are remedies, but it is severed. God in this instance made a new covenant; He made a better covenant with the people, one in which they could stand under and live...eternal life ALWAYS required the Messiah, Jesus. Genesis 3:15 promised His coming right after mankind (Adam and Eve) fell and inherited the sinful nature.

Jacob
December 11th, 2017, 10:55 PM
Hebrews 8:7-13:
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10
This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12
For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”
13 B[B]y calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Where there is a covenant or say a contract that is broken by one party the covenant is severed...there are remedies, but it is severed. God in this instance made a new covenant; He made a better covenant with the people, one in which they could stand under and live...eternal life ALWAYS required the Messiah, Jesus. Genesis 3:15 promised His coming right after mankind (Adam and Eve) fell and inherited the sinful nature.

What was wrong was that the people broke the covenant.

Was it that God made a covenant with the people?

There is a new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts.

I do not know what to do with the doctrine about the seed of the or a woman. I did a concordance search and I do not see it in the Bible.

The writer of Hebrews is quoting some from Jeremiah and giving commentary. At what point did the covenant become obsolete and when will or did it disappear? Many still await the coming of the new covenant, even those who have accepted it to be in Jesus who already came. It is my belief that the Law and the Prophets have not been abolished. That the Law has not been abolished, annulled, or done away with. I believe that Jesus' words to His disciples to keep and teach the commandments still applies to me today.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 10:57 AM
What was wrong was that the people broke the covenant.

Was it that God made a covenant with the people?

There is a new covenant for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts.

I do not know what to do with the doctrine about the seed of the or a woman. I did a concordance search and I do not see it in the Bible.

The writer of Hebrews is quoting some from Jeremiah and giving commentary. At what point did the covenant become obsolete and when will or did it disappear? Many still await the coming of the new covenant, even those who have accepted it to be in Jesus who already came. It is my belief that the Law and the Prophets have not been abolished. That the Law has not been abolished, annulled, or done away with. I believe that Jesus' words to His disciples to keep and teach the commandments still applies to me today.

Jacob,
Israel is real, but also symbolic of all true believers...there are passages to point this out. The new covenant prophesied and came to pass was Christ and these are the N.T./new covenant teachings.
All those who believe are sons of Abraham...the Gentile believers have been grafted into Israel as Romans explains.
All for now; hope to get back to this soon.

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 11:46 AM
Jacob,
Israel is real, but also symbolic of all true believers...there are passages to point this out. The new covenant prophesied and came to pass was Christ and these are the N.T./new covenant teachings.
All those who believe are sons of Abraham...the Gentile believers have been grafted into Israel as Romans explains.
All for now; hope to get back to this soon.

I do not believe that Israel is symbolic at all. I am of the nation of Israel. This is different from being grafted in.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 02:08 PM
I'm sorry you don't believe it, but Scripture records it and you have stated that you accept Scripture...read Romans 11 and there are other supporting passages.

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 02:30 PM
I'm sorry you don't believe it, but Scripture records it and you have stated that you accept Scripture...read Romans 11 and there are other supporting passages.

I do accept Scripture. I do not see anything about Israel being symbolic in Romans 11.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 03:04 PM
I do accept Scripture. I do not see anything about Israel being symbolic in Romans 11.

You see the "grafted in" which you were denying.
Look at Abraham's descendants, that is Israel. He/Abraham was the father of all that believed. (Romans 4)

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 03:08 PM
You see the "grafted in" which you were denying.
Look at Abraham's descendants, that is Israel. He/Abraham was the father of all that believed. (Romans 4)

My being grafted in was different than my becoming of Israel. Jacob's name was changed to Israel. It is from him that we have the nation of Israel. Joseph was in Egypt, and Jacob and his other sons moved to Egypt. In the Exodus Israel left Egypt. What is a mixed multitude? How about in the land of Israel everyone living by the same law? I am circumcised and observe the feasts, the 613 commandments of Torah, etc....

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 04:15 PM
My being grafted in was different than my becoming of Israel. Jacob's name was changed to Israel. It is from him that we have the nation of Israel. Joseph was in Egypt, and Jacob and his other sons moved to Egypt. In the Exodus Israel left Egypt. What is a mixed multitude? How about in the land of Israel everyone living by the same law? I am circumcised and observe the feasts, the 613 commandments of Torah, etc....

John 8:38-47.......see the beginnings of the new understanding of who "Israel" is.
Romans 4:16:
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Colosians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Galations 6:16:
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to[a] the Israel of God.
....remember here, Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles.
There's more, but please comment on this so far.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 04:19 PM
My being grafted in was different than my becoming of Israel. Jacob's name was changed to Israel. It is from him that we have the nation of Israel. Joseph was in Egypt, and Jacob and his other sons moved to Egypt. In the Exodus Israel left Egypt. What is a mixed multitude? How about in the land of Israel everyone living by the same law? I am circumcised and observe the feasts, the 613 commandments of Torah, etc....

You weren't grafted in, you were born Israeli...you miss the point of the text which is that the Gentiles were grafted in, that is the believing Gentiles. Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles and his Epistles or letters were written to the Gentile churches he set up.

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 04:25 PM
John 8:38-47.......see the beginnings of the new understanding of who "Israel" is.
Romans 4:16:
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
Colosians 3:11
Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.
Galations 6:16:
Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to[a] the Israel of God.
....remember here, Paul is an apostle to the Gentiles.
There's more, but please comment on this so far.

It is not saying that Israel is spiritual now, for not all Israel is Israel. Rather, the elect are of Israel. Israel is a nation, and there is the Israelite indeed. If you observe God's commandments, and accept God's Word, even His Messiah, you are of Israel. It is important to study God's Law, or Torah. There are 613 commands, commandments, laws, mitzvot, for us to observe. Have you turned to God from among the Gentiles? Then are you of Israel? You have four essentials to observe, as specified in Acts 15. Do you know about the commonwealth of Israel? Do you know about the middle wall of partition that has been done away with? Do you know that the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been abolished?

Shalom.

Jacob

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 04:27 PM
You weren't grafted in, you were born Israeli...you miss the point of the text which is that the Gentiles were grafted in, that is the believing Gentiles. Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles and his Epistles or letters were written to the Gentile churches he set up.

If I was born Israeli that is news to me. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 04:56 PM
It is not saying that Israel is spiritual now, for not all Israel is Israel. Rather, the elect are of Israel. Israel is a nation, and there is the Israelite indeed. If you observe God's commandments, and accept God's Word, even His Messiah, you are of Israel. It is important to study God's Law, or Torah. There are 613 commands, commandments, laws, mitzvot, for us to observe. Have you turned to God from among the Gentiles? Then are you of Israel? You have four essentials to observe, as specified in Acts 15. Do you know about the commonwealth of Israel? Do you know about the middle wall of partition that has been done away with? Do you know that the enmity, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been abolished?

Shalom.

Jacob

Yes, yes and yes...not ignorant in that department...many others perhaps.
Jews do keep their name if they like...it is something special as Romans points out, however you are not proving out your faith well enough to take in those Scriptures I posted you...judging by your response.

TestedandTried
December 12th, 2017, 04:57 PM
If I was born Israeli that is news to me. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism.

Oh, dear, so confusing to me...facts remain the same per Scripture however.

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 05:06 PM
Yes, yes and yes...not ignorant in that department...many others perhaps.
Jews do keep their name if they like...it is something special as Romans points out, however you are not proving out your faith well enough to take in those Scriptures I posted you...judging by your response.
If you are a man and have something to teach me I can be taught.

Oh, dear, so confusing to me...facts remain the same per Scripture however.

turbosixx
December 12th, 2017, 06:00 PM
I'm curious. What is your stance on the new testament?


Do you call this the law of Christ?
I believe the NT is where we find the law of Christ. Paul says he was not under the law (Mosaical) but under the law of Christ.
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

God spoke to man through different ways throughout the years, but in these last days has spoken to us through Jesus.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things,



Why do you say that the old law is the Mosaical law?
Gal. 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
That law that came 430 years afterward is the law Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt. God says he's giving them a new law not like the Mosaical one.
Heb. 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,



Why do you say that it was never meant to be permanent?
The old law could not forgive sins. The blood of animals cannot forgive sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Jacob
December 12th, 2017, 11:14 PM
Happy Chanukah!
I'm curious. What is your stance on the new testament?


I believe the NT is where we find the law of Christ. Paul says he was not under the law (Mosaical) but under the law of Christ.
1 Cor. 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

God spoke to man through different ways throughout the years, but in these last days has spoken to us through Jesus.
Heb. 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things,



Gal. 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
That law that came 430 years afterward is the law Moses gave them when they came out of Egypt. God says he's giving them a new law not like the Mosaical one.
Heb. 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,



The old law could not forgive sins. The blood of animals cannot forgive sin.
Heb. 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb. 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

I do not know why you use the term Mosaical.

I have heard of the law of Christ. We are to read about what it is, namely to bear one another's burdens, in the one or two places it is mentioned between Matthew and Revelation. I do not need to refer to these books as the New Testament. I accept them. I do not know if they were included in what would be called the New Testament when the Biblical Canon (do I have the term right here?) was established, or if these books were accepted without the designation New Testament. The New Covenant is spoken of in Jeremiah and this is (in, from) the TaNaK and throughout (-*the New Testament,) or from Matthew to Revelation as well.

Why do you emphasize

the law, which came 430 years afterward,

when explaining your view of what is the old law? Old and afterward do not mix well, not that you are attempting to mix them.

That there is a New Covenant is true. It is not like the Old Covenant, which the people broke and they did not continue in it. Does this explain a time before Christ?

I believe we would need to read about sacrifice in the Torah, animal sacrifice, to know if the blood of animals can forgive sin. You said that the old law could not forgive sins. Are you thinking only of animal sacrifice here?

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 01:02 AM
I do not know why you use the term Mosaical.
It's just what I've heard used to describe the law that God gave through Moses at Mt. Sinai.




Why do you emphasize

the law, which came 430 years afterward,

when explaining your view of what is the old law? Old and afterward do not mix well, not that you are attempting to mix them.
What Paul is talking about is the promise made to Abraham and that the law that came 430 after that was the law Moses gave the people.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.


That there is a New Covenant is true. It is not like the Old Covenant, which the people broke and they did not continue in it. Does this explain a time before Christ?
That's the way I understand it.


I believe we would need to read about sacrifice in the Torah, animal sacrifice, to know if the blood of animals can forgive sin. You said that the old law could not forgive sins. Are you thinking only of animal sacrifice here?
Yes, only animal sacrifices. This is the way I understand it. Hebrews tells us that with animal sacrifices there was a reminder of sins because they could not forgive sin.
Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 01:21 AM
It's just what I've heard used to describe the law that God gave through Moses at Mt. Sinai.




What Paul is talking about is the promise made to Abraham and that the law that came 430 after that was the law Moses gave the people.
Gal. 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.


That's the way I understand it.


Yes, only animal sacrifices. This is the way I understand it. Hebrews tells us that with animal sacrifices there was a reminder of sins because they could not forgive sin.
Heb. 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

I believe that you are saying that when you read to take away sins you believe this to say that forgiveness is not there by animal sacrifice. Why are bulls and goats mentioned? What sacrifices involve bulls and goats? What animals are used in animal sacrifice and what is forgiveness and what is atonement in regard to animal sacrifice? What or how does the Torah read?

When the writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah and comments or explains something, however you see it or however it is and understanding it rightly or properly, is it that he is explaining as it was during the time of Jeremiah, before Christ, or some time in relation to or relative to Christ?

What is the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaical Law?

The promise was made to Abraham, and the law came after that.

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 01:44 AM
I believe that you are saying that when you read to take away sins you believe this to say that forgiveness is not there by animal sacrifice. Why are bulls and goats mentioned? What sacrifices involve bulls and goats? What animals are used in animal sacrifice and what is forgiveness and what is atonement in regard to animal sacrifice? What or how does the Torah read?
Jesus said that the forgiveness of sins would first be proclaimed from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

I don't know much at all about the Torah


When the writer of Hebrews quotes Jeremiah and comments or explains something, however you see it or however it is and understanding it rightly or properly, is it that he is explaining as it was during the time of Jeremiah, before Christ, or some time in relation to or relative to Christ?
Jeremiah was looking forward to the new covenant that Jesus established by his blood.


What is the Law of Moses, the Mosaic Law, and the Mosaical Law?
The law God gave Israel at Mt. Sinai.


The promise was made to Abraham, and the law came after that.
That's the way I understand it. The promise was also before circumcision.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 01:58 AM
Jesus said that the forgiveness of sins would first be proclaimed from Jerusalem.
Luke 24:47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

I don't know much at all about the Torah


Jeremiah was looking forward to the new covenant that Jesus established by his blood.


The law God gave Israel at Mt. Sinai.


That's the way I understand it. The promise was also before circumcision.

The Five Books of Moses, the Torah, the Law, the Law of Moses, are by their English names Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Law of Moses was something I accepted for these books. I do not know if I accept that or if I accept something different or more than one thing, being that the Law of Moses may be mentioned in the Torah, but I do not know what it is. The Mosaic Law may refer to different things by different people. I do not get much help with this. I do not know if I can come back to you if my understanding changes, but we can study it together or ask for help if you wish. I do not know what Mosaical Law means. I encourage you in your Biblical Studies. Do you want to study the Torah? Do you want to study the TaNaK? I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. Do you want to study animal sacrifice or sacrifice (animal sacrifice) in the Torah? Do you just want to study the Torah? You can if you want to, if you have the desire to. I have read some of the TaNaK, or the TaNaKh or Tanakh. Jerusalem is referred to there yes, and elsewhere. Jerusalem is in Israel. It still is. What do you mean that Jesus established by His blood? This is not found in Jeremiah. What do you mean using the word established?

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 02:09 AM
The Five Books of Moses, the Torah, the Law, the Law of Moses, are by their English names Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
That's it.


Do you want to study the Torah?
There's a lot I want to study and better understand. Torah is one of them.


What do you mean that Jesus established by His blood? This is not found in Jeremiah. What do you mean using the word established?

Shalom.

Jacob

Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Heb.8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 02:23 AM
That's it.


There's a lot I want to study and better understand. Torah is one of them.



Heb. 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. 16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Heb.8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,

I see where your confusion lies. You have combined Jesus' words with what God said He would do.

Is there anything that hinders your ability or desire to study the Torah? I can help you if you wish. In any case, it is good to hear that you are open to Torah study.

Shalom.

Jacob

beameup
December 13th, 2017, 02:25 AM
I do not believe that Israel is symbolic at all. I am of the nation of Israel. This is different from being grafted in.
The "nation of Israel" is in the Middle-East.
Only citizens in residency can call themselves "of the Nation of Israel".
As well, "Israel" has not yet entered into the "New Covenant" because they rejected Messiah.
After "much tribulation" Israel (what's left of it) will receive Messiah upon His return.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 02:32 AM
Happy Chanukah!
The "nation of Israel" is in the Middle-East.
Only citizens in residency can call themselves "of the Nation of Israel".
As well, "Israel" has not yet entered into the "New Covenant" because
they rejected Messiah.

You are incorrect. There are those of Israel who live outside the land. I am of the people or nation of Israel. I observe the Torah. I do live outside the land of Israel.

I do not know what you mean by saying the Middle-East.

I do not know why you are talking about Israel entering into the New Covenant. The New Covenant was given to the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach. It is because of Jesus' instruction in Matthew 5:18-19 that I came to observe the Commandments and in so doing become a Jew of Israel. The question is if Gentiles are also a part of the New Covenant, since Jeremiah does indicate the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Why do you say "not yet" when I am a New Covenant believer, a Jew, of Israel, and Torah Observant? The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. What do you mean by citizens in residency?

Shalom.

Jacob

beameup
December 13th, 2017, 05:50 AM
Happy Chanukah!

You are incorrect. There are those of Israel who live outside the land. I am of the people or nation of Israel. I observe the Torah. I do live outside the land of Israel.
Jacob

You are just deceiving yourself.
The land has been open now since 1948, and YHWH is "regathering" HIS people there.
You are "in Babylon", not "the Holy Land". You obviously prefer "Babylon"
or you would have felt the call of YHWH to return to Israel.
However, lets face it, you have no GENETIC ties to Jews, so they wouldn't allow you to immigrate.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 11:07 AM
You are just deceiving yourself.
The land has been open now since 1948, and YHWH is "regathering" HIS people there.
You are "in Babylon", not "the Holy Land". You obviously prefer "Babylon"
or you would have felt the call of YHWH to return to Israel.
However, lets face it, you have no GENETIC ties to Jews, so they wouldn't allow you to immigrate.

I want to make aliyah or move to Israel. I have been encouraged to apply for immigration. I do not believe that I need any paperwork to be of Israel and observe God's Law. YHVH is my God. Why do you say Babylon and the Holy Land? I do not know what you mean by I would have felt the call to RETURN to Israel. I have never been to Israel. What do you mean the land has been open now since 1948?

I am a Jew, of Israel. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism. I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. I keep and teach the commandments. I observe and teach the Torah.

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 05:32 PM
I see where your confusion lies. You have combined Jesus' words with what God said He would do.
Could you please explain what you see me confused about.



Is there anything that hinders your ability or desire to study the Torah? I can help you if you wish. In any case, it is good to hear that you are open to Torah study.

Shalom.

Jacob
If I have any questions about the Torah, I will definitely ask you.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 05:37 PM
Could you please explain what you see me confused about.



If I have any questions about the Torah, I will definitely ask you.

God said that He would establish a new covenant and you say that Jesus established a new covenant. Did you mean something different when you said something different than what the Scripture said?

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 05:44 PM
God said that He would establish a new covenant and you say that Jesus established a new covenant. Did you mean something different when you said something different than what the Scripture said?

Jn. 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 05:47 PM
Jn. 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

Are you commenting on what Jesus said or did or about yourself?

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 06:12 PM
Are you commenting on what Jesus said or did or about yourself?

Not sure what you mean by the question. If I understood what you thought my confusion was in that I said God said he would establish a new covenant and then me saying Jesus did establish the new covenant, that scripture was in response to that.

That scripture says that everything Jesus says and does is from God. So when Jesus shed his blood for the new covenant, that was God establishing the new covenant. Did I clear that up or make it worse?

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 06:14 PM
Not sure what you mean by the question. If I understood what you thought my confusion was in that I said God said he would establish a new covenant and then me saying Jesus did establish the new covenant, that scripture was in response to that.

That scripture says that everything Jesus says and does is from God. So when Jesus shed his blood for the new covenant, that was God establishing the new covenant. Did I clear that up or make it worse?

The question is about what you did and what you were thinking.

Why did you quote a verse about God establishing a new covenant to justify your saying that Jesus established a new covenant? Or, were you doing something different from this?

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 06:19 PM
The question is about what you did and what you were thinking.

Why did you quote a verse about God establishing a new covenant to justify your saying that Jesus established a new covenant? Or, were you doing something different from this?

Shalom.

Jacob

Do you believe Jesus established the new covenant?

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 06:23 PM
Do you believe Jesus established the new covenant?

I do not know what is meant by the statement. The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. Did it come in Jesus or was it promised for the future in Jesus?

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 07:04 PM
I do not know what is meant by the statement. The new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts. Did it come in Jesus or was it promised for the future in Jesus?

Shalom.

Jacob

It came in Jesus.
Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

2 Cor. 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 07:32 PM
It came in Jesus.
Matt. 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

2 Cor. 3:3 And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.I believe that it came in Jesus. What I need to know is if it was ratified for a future date. Was the New Covenant established by Jesus? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127722-Was-the-New-Covenant-established-by-Jesus)

Is 2 Corinthians 3:3 different from Jeremiah 31:33?

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 08:57 PM
I believe that it came in Jesus. What I need to know is if it was ratified for a future date. Was the New Covenant established by Jesus? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127722-Was-the-New-Covenant-established-by-Jesus)

It is now. You have two choices. You can let a Levite be your High Priest or Jesus. You can't have both. Jesus is not from the tribe of Levi.



Is 2 Corinthians 3:3 different from Jeremiah 31:33?
I don't think so.
Rom. 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 09:02 PM
It is now. You have two choices. You can let a Levite be your High Priest or Jesus. You can't have both. Jesus is not from the tribe of Levi.



I don't think so.
Rom. 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);

What is now?

You do not need to choose between Levi and Christ.

I believe there is a difference between 2 Corinthians 3:3 and Jeremiah 31:33.

Shalom.

Jacob

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 09:30 PM
You do not need to choose between Levi and Christ.


You have 2 high priests?

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 09:33 PM
You have 2 high priests?

What does Scripture allow?

A Levitical Priest, or a High Priest, and Yeshua the High Priest not according to Levi?

I believe that you were not asking about more than one High Priest without Yeshua.

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 09:41 PM
What does Scripture allow?

A Levitical Priest, or a High Priest, and Yeshua the High Priest not according to Levi?

I believe that you were not asking about more than one High Priest without Yeshua.

Jesus cannot be high priest under the law of Moses therefore in order for him to be a priest, there was a change in law.

Heb. 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 09:48 PM
Jesus cannot be high priest under the law of Moses therefore in order for him to be a priest, there was a change in law.

Heb. 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.

15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.

Incorrect. The change of law is associated with the change of the priesthood.

turbosixx
December 13th, 2017, 09:52 PM
Incorrect. The change of law is associated with the change of the priesthood.

That's what I said. How was I incorrect?

Jacob
December 13th, 2017, 10:12 PM
That's what I said. How was I incorrect?

Did you say that the change of priesthood was associated with a change of law?

The question is if one brought about the other or accompanied the other, etc.... How to think about it.