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patrick jane
December 7th, 2017, 06:57 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5155405/Pope-wants-better-translation-phrase-temptation-Our-Father-prayer.html



https://youtu.be/tES6ROYL-1I

Tigger 2
December 7th, 2017, 07:26 PM
Nevertheless the NT text literally says 'do not lead us...' or 'do not bring us....' How one interprets this depends on ancient idioms and usage. It may be that Matthew's understanding of this phrase was similar to the Pope's.

But the Greek, nevertheless, says 'lead' or 'bring.'

jsanford108
December 7th, 2017, 07:50 PM
What is your opinion on this, Patrick?


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daqq
December 7th, 2017, 07:52 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5155405/Pope-wants-better-translation-phrase-temptation-Our-Father-prayer.html



https://youtu.be/tES6ROYL-1I

Yeah, he is right imo, and I don't care what anyone else says or wants to believe just because scholarship says it is so: the Father does not lead us into temptation. It says, "Let us not be led into temptation". He would not be correcting the scripture but rather he would be correcting his own mother church's former translators.

Angel4Truth
December 7th, 2017, 08:21 PM
The Pope wants to ignore that it is God who leads us to crossroads, where we make a choice to test us and ultimately for His (Gods) Glory.

“A man’s steps are from the Lord” (Proverbs 20:24).

There is not a moment of your life that is not a moment of temptation where unbelief and disobedience is not a possibility.

So basically the Pope is ignoring that what we are praying for in the Lords prayer, is for God to order our steps toward Him, instead of toward what we would choose in the world.

daqq
December 7th, 2017, 09:10 PM
The Pope wants to ignore that it is God who leads us to crossroads, where we make a choice to test us and ultimately for His (Gods) Glory.

“A man’s steps are from the Lord” (Proverbs 20:24).

There is not a moment of your life that is not a moment of temptation where unbelief and disobedience is not a possibility.

So basically the Pope is ignoring that what we are praying for in the Lords prayer, is for God to order our steps toward Him, instead of toward what we would choose in the world.

This is where study in the original languages would give depth and clarity. Neither the Hebrew nor the Greek texts of Proverbs 20:24 say what your quote suggests. A "gaber" and a mortal, "adam", are obviously not the same in the eyes of the author of that proverb. Too bad 99% of Christiandom neither knows these things nor comprehends or fathoms the depth of the impact of such teachings on the New Testament. This passage tells you the difference between an aner-andri and an anthropon, (a gaber and an adam respectively).

"From the Lord are the goings/steps of a gaber: how then can an adam understand His way?"

In the Septuagint Greek we read this:

Proverbs 20:24 LXX
24 παρα κυριου ευθυνεται τα διαβηματα ανδρι θνητος δε πως αν νοησαι τας οδους αυτου

"andri" (ανδρι) = "gaber" (from the Hebrew text)
"thnetos" (θνητος) = "adam" (from the Hebrew text)
"thnetos" = "mortal" (liable to die)

For example:

The 'ish, (certain one), Gabriel, (the angel), is a gaber or geber, (mighty one).

genuineoriginal
December 8th, 2017, 11:29 AM
When God leads us into temptation, it is to test our faith, and that is a good thing.

James 1:2-3,12
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

SaulToPaul
December 8th, 2017, 01:48 PM
Matthew
6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Revelation
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.


Tribulation context.

patrick jane
December 8th, 2017, 05:39 PM
What is your opinion on this, Patrick?


Sent from my iPhone using TOLI say leave the Bible alone.

User Name
December 8th, 2017, 07:51 PM
The Pope wants to ignore that it is God who leads us to crossroads, where we make a choice to test us and ultimately for His (Gods) Glory.

“A man’s steps are from the Lord” (Proverbs 20:24).

There is not a moment of your life that is not a moment of temptation where unbelief and disobedience is not a possibility.

So basically the Pope is ignoring that what we are praying for in the Lords prayer, is for God to order our steps toward Him, instead of toward what we would choose in the world.

James 1:13 KJV
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Nihilo
December 9th, 2017, 10:44 AM
The question is, what's he going to do.

jsanford108
December 9th, 2017, 03:10 PM
I say leave the Bible alone.

I was discussing this topic with a fellow educated Catholic, the night that I read this post. I stated that the only negative reaction from Protestants would be that "the pope is changing the Bible." And I am quite relieved that it is you who are the one to make this point.

You are rational, reasonable, and logical. So, is the Pope talking about changing the Bible, or about finding a better translation of a prayer to better reflect the attributes of God and man's nature?

If you read the Pope's reasoning, it makes sense. How does one logically read the phrase "lead us not into temptation?" The normal interpretation, based solely on verb use, is that we are being lead into temptation by a force outside of us. Thus, "God is leading us to temptation." But, Christianity just kind of ignores this syntax, due to the knowledge that God would not lead us to sin.

The real issue (or negative reaction) is that people don't like change. The prayer has been taught the same way, rendered with the same vocabulary, for centuries. So, is the argument of "leave the bible alone" (which, no one is talking about altering the Bible, but a prayer based on one found in the Bible) not more akin to an argument against changing tradition? It is not an argument against the reasons given. It is not an argument that the traditional interpretation is correct. It is an argument directed at a straw man. The Pope never said that we need to revise the Scripture; only the prayer based on one found in Scripture.


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patrick jane
December 9th, 2017, 04:51 PM
I was discussing this topic with a fellow educated Catholic, the night that I read this post. I stated that the only negative reaction from Protestants would be that "the pope is changing the Bible." And I am quite relieved that it is you who are the one to make this point.

You are rational, reasonable, and logical. So, is the Pope talking about changing the Bible, or about finding a better translation of a prayer to better reflect the attributes of God and man's nature?

If you read the Pope's reasoning, it makes sense. How does one logically read the phrase "lead us not into temptation?" The normal interpretation, based solely on verb use, is that we are being lead into temptation by a force outside of us. Thus, "God is leading us to temptation." But, Christianity just kind of ignores this syntax, due to the knowledge that God would not lead us to sin.

The real issue (or negative reaction) is that people don't like change. The prayer has been taught the same way, rendered with the same vocabulary, for centuries. So, is the argument of "leave the bible alone" (which, no one is talking about altering the Bible, but a prayer based on one found in the Bible) not more akin to an argument against changing tradition? It is not an argument against the reasons given. It is not an argument that the traditional interpretation is correct. It is an argument directed at a straw man. The Pope never said that we need to revise the Scripture; only the prayer based on one found in Scripture.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)Yes, I too think the Pope's intention is to make the prayer more understandable to all. As a Catholic kid, I remember thinking about that wording. Praying to God and asking Him not to lead us into temptation seemed to suggest God could "lead us into temptation." I don't know when I decided in my mind that it's not God who leads me down that road but I was probably still a kid.

I just don't agree with "changing" the words or a word of the Bible. I only read in English and I don't study Greek or Hebrew etc., so I believe that Jesus actually said the words I read. Sure, it could say "and let us not fall into temptation" and that might sound better to the unbeliever and the new believer. But then where does it stop? Do we change a word here and there to "help" the Bible to be more "likely" to be believed?

At the same time, men have translated and organized the Bible that we have today so for me personally, it wouldn't change the meaning of the prayer if it was changed. Wouldn't that have to go through a council of some kind to be officially changed? My final answer is still - Don't change the Bible because I believe the Bible we have is as God intended.