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Robert Pate
November 19th, 2017, 10:50 AM
Satan's plan for your life is that you reject the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. and become religious and join the organized church. If you do that all of the demons in hell will rejoice.

All religions have been influenced by the Catholic church, even the Lutheran church. They are still baptizing babies. I attended a baby baptism awhile back. After the pastor baptized the baby he said, "This child now has eternal life". The fool thinks that baptism saves. I said something to my sister in law about it, but she didn't want to hear it because it was her grandson.

Some time ago I went to visit my wife's uncle to talk to him about his relationship with Christ. While I was reading John 3:16 to him he stopped me and said, "Bob, you don't have to worry about my soul, I have been confirmed by the Lutheran church". He was trusting in his confirmation to save him. He didn't want to hear about how Jesus saved him.

Organized religion is a product of Catholicism and Judaism. All churches have by-laws, the by-laws determine the function of the church and its membership. Example: You cannot become a member of the Baptist church if you are not baptized in the Baptist church. Its the law. Other churches have similar laws. In some churches you are required to tithe a certain amount of money monthly. If you don't, its goodbye. This is the exact thing that Paul taught against. The whole idea is to keep you under the law so that they can control you.

The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ is not compatible with organized religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Living by rules, laws and religion is not living by faith. Religion is about you, who is a sinner. Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituality. The Bible knows nothing about our old Adamic nature being rehabilitated by the works of the law or religion. In the Gospel Jesus puts our old Adamic nature to death, Romans 6:6. He doesn't rehabilitate it by religion. He then brings forth a new nature that is spiritual and is in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

Sinful, religious man needs to go outside of himself to something that is greater than himself, mainly Jesus Christ. Religion causes one to become a subjective introvert. In and of ourselves we are sinners. We are born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We live out our days as sinners and we die as sinners. There is nothing that we can do to change that, nor can religion change that. The Gospel leads us outside of ourselves because the Gospel is about Jesus Christ and what he has done to redeem us.

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 09:34 AM
The early church was not an organized church. There was no paid staff and they met in each others homes. There was an attempt to divide and organize the early church, but Paul squashed it.

"For it has been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you that says, I am of Paul; and I am of Apollos; and I am of Cephas; and I am of Christ. is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:11-13."

I believe that there are over 170 different denominations in the United States. They all think that they have the truth. I heard of a church that split because they could not agree on the placement of the pulpit. Some wanted it on the left side of the sanctuary, while others wanted it on the right side and then some wanted it in the center. So the church split over this simple thing.

Where there is religion there is strife. In the Gospel we are all sinners saved by grace. No one is any better than any one else, we are all equal in Christ.

Nihilo
November 21st, 2017, 09:52 AM
The early church was not an organized church.There was a hierarchy that began with the Lord Jesus, and He ordained His Apostles, and His Apostles ordained bishops (their successors, as elders and overseers of the Church), and they taught and instructed the bishops to ordain new bishops.

There was no paid staffVs. 1st Corinthians 9:14 (KJV)

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 11:51 AM
There was a hierarchy that began with the Lord Jesus, and He ordained His Apostles, and His Apostles ordained bishops (their successors, as elders and overseers of the Church), and they taught and instructed the bishops to ordain new bishops.
Vs. 1st Corinthians 9:14 (KJV)


No one wants to admit it, but the organized church is a mess and a failure. The purpose of the church was to preach the Gospel. Unfortunately the organized church doesn't even know what the Gospel is, much less preach it. Today's church is where you go to be entertained.

Nihilo
November 21st, 2017, 11:59 AM
No one wants to admit it, but the organized church is a mess and a failure. The purpose of the church was to preach the Gospel. Unfortunately the organized church doesn't even know what the Gospel is, much less preach it. Today's church is where you go to be entertained.I don't know of an ecclesial community or tradition that denies the Good News and Gospel that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 12:01 PM
I don't know of an ecclesial community or tradition that denies the Good News and Gospel that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen from the dead.

That is not the Gospel. The devils in hell believe that Jesus has risen from the dead.

Nihilo
November 21st, 2017, 12:07 PM
That is not the Gospel. The devils in hell believe that Jesus has risen from the dead.He didn't rise for devils in hell.

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 12:13 PM
He didn't rise for devils in hell.

The Gospel is the good news that Jesus has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. We are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Making religion worthless.

Nihilo
November 21st, 2017, 12:41 PM
The Gospel is the good news that Jesus has justified the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and has reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. We are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Making religion worthless.You don't think that Him being risen is even part of the Gospel?

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 02:25 PM
You don't think that Him being risen is even part of the Gospel?

Of course it is. When Jesus came out of the grave we came out with him. The resurrection is God's sign of approval on the life of Jesus. Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil. God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ, Acts 2:36.

jsanford108
November 21st, 2017, 03:04 PM
Satan's plan for your life is that you reject the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. and become religious and join the organized church. If you do that all of the demons in hell will rejoice. How do you know what makes demons rejoice? Whose side are you on, here?


All religions have been influenced by the Catholic church, even the Lutheran church. They are still baptizing babies. I attended a baby baptism awhile back. After the pastor baptized the baby he said, "This child now has eternal life". The fool thinks that baptism saves. I said something to my sister in law about it, but she didn't want to hear it because it was her grandson. "All religions?" No. Maybe all "denominations of Christianity," since Catholicism is first and original Church.

And yes, they are still baptizing babies. What is wrong with that? Please, explain.

Also, "the fool thinks that baptism saves?" Did the priest say that? According to your own testimony, he said "this child now has eternal life." That is not salvation by baptism, but affirmation in that which Christ/Apostles taught and preached.


Organized religion is a product of Catholicism and Judaism. I would say that God/Christ established the Church and Judaism. You know, based on the historical evidence presented in the Scriptures.


All churches have by-laws, the by-laws determine the function of the church and its membership. Example: You cannot become a member of the Baptist church if you are not baptized in the Baptist church. Its the law. False. The baptist denomination usually accepts any form of full submersion baptism as legitimate. Also, various churches within a denomination, such as Baptist, have very different by-laws and beliefs. So, just because one does it, does not mean that the whole denomination does it.


The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ is not compatible with organized religion. Paul said, "The Just Shall live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Living by rules, laws and religion is not living by faith. Religion is about you, who is a sinner. Religion is man's preoccupation with his own spirituality. The Bible knows nothing about our old Adamic nature being rehabilitated by the works of the law or religion. In the Gospel Jesus puts our old Adamic nature to death, Romans 6:6. He doesn't rehabilitate it by religion. He then brings forth a new nature that is spiritual and is in Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. What is the "historical gospel?" The only time I hear this, it is from some rather disingenuous sources. Go ahead and google the Five Gospels. What you declare sounds very similar.


The Gospel leads us outside of ourselves because the Gospel is about Jesus Christ and what he has done to redeem us.Right. And in the Gospel accounts, Christ established a Church. It seems you are denying the truth of the Gospel in favor of your own ideas of what it should be, rather that what it is.

Bright Raven
November 21st, 2017, 03:10 PM
Satan's plan: To steal, kill and destroy.

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 03:26 PM
How do you know what makes demons rejoice? Whose side are you on, here?

"All religions?" No. Maybe all "denominations of Christianity," since Catholicism is first and original Church.

And yes, they are still baptizing babies. What is wrong with that? Please, explain.

Also, "the fool thinks that baptism saves?" Did the priest say that? According to your own testimony, he said "this child now has eternal life." That is not salvation by baptism, but affirmation in that which Christ/Apostles taught and preached.

I would say that God/Christ established the Church and Judaism. You know, based on the historical evidence presented in the Scriptures.

False. The baptist denomination usually accepts any form of full submersion baptism as legitimate. Also, various churches within a denomination, such as Baptist, have very different by-laws and beliefs. So, just because one does it, does not mean that the whole denomination does it.

What is the "historical gospel?" The only time I hear this, it is from some rather disingenuous sources. Go ahead and google the Five Gospels. What you declare sounds very similar.

Right. And in the Gospel accounts, Christ established a Church. It seems you are denying the truth of the Gospel in favor of your own ideas of what it should be, rather that what it is.


Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not the Gospel. The Catholic church was responsible for calling those books the Gospel. The Gospel is about what Jesus Christ has done to justify lost, ungodly sinners, Romans 4:5.

By his righteous, sinless life he fulfills God's holy law, Matthew 5:18.

By his death on the cross he atones for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ. Because of the victorious life and death of Jesus we have been made complete in him, Colossians 2:10.

We can now stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Jesus Christ. Isn't that where you want to be?

2003cobra
November 21st, 2017, 04:53 PM
Often Satan’s plan for Christians is to have them distracted from the good work of the kingdom of God.

jsanford108
November 21st, 2017, 07:57 PM
Oh, Robert; you did not refute, nor explain, anything. If you need to refer to post #11, you will notice I asked how baptism of infants is wrong, historical gospels, etc. I also called out a few other things. But, that is fine if you wish to address each point individually.


Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not the Gospel. The Catholic church was responsible for calling those books the Gospel. The Gospel is about what Jesus Christ has done to justify lost, ungodly sinners, Romans 4:5.False. The Catholic Church labeled them, correctly, "The Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John." The Church did not just call them by the author names, as most Protestant denominations do.

These four canonical books are referred to as "The Gospels," or "Gospel," respectively, but that is because that is what they are; Gospel accounts.


We can now stand before God's holy court as perfect and complete in Jesus Christ. Isn't that where you want to be?

Do we not "stand before the Holy court" upon death? So, if your question is do I want to be dead, then the answer is no. I value and cherish the life that God has blessed me with.

As far as being perfect and complete, I am not perfect. Are you perfect? How often do I hear "All have sinned," yet am also told we can be "perfect and complete." Is that not paradoxical?

I am working out my salvation, in fear, trembling, and obedience, just as Paul taught us. (Philippians 2:12)


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Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 08:02 PM
Often Satan’s plan for Christians is to have them distracted from the good work of the kingdom of God.

The good work of the kingdom of God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Robert Pate
November 21st, 2017, 08:07 PM
Oh, Robert; you did not refute, nor explain, anything. If you need to refer to post #11, you will notice I asked how baptism of infants is wrong, historical gospels, etc. I also called out a few other things. But, that is fine if you wish to address each point individually.

False. The Catholic Church labeled them, correctly, "The Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John." The Church did not just call them by the author names, as most Protestant denominations do.

These four canonical books are referred to as "The Gospels," or "Gospel," respectively, but that is because that is what they are; Gospel accounts.



Do we not "stand before the Holy court" upon death? So, if your question is do I want to be dead, then the answer is no. I value and cherish the life that God has blessed me with.

As far as being perfect and complete, I am not perfect. Are you perfect? How often do I hear "All have sinned," yet am also told we can be "perfect and complete." Is that not paradoxical?

I am working out my salvation, in fear, trembling, and obedience, just as Paul taught us. (Philippians 2:12)


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You cannot work for your salvation. God does not accept the works of sinners, which you are one of.

What Paul meant was to work it out in your mind what Christ had done to justify you, Romans 4:5.

jsanford108
November 21st, 2017, 09:41 PM
You cannot work for your salvation. God does not accept the works of sinners, which you are one of.

What Paul meant was to work it out in your mind what Christ had done to justify you, Romans 4:5.

Oh, so Paul did not mean what he wrote to the Phillipeans? Where does Paul give this alternate meaning and clarification? It appears that you are suggesting meanings not found in Scripture, which are in fact contrary to what is plainly written.


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jsanford108
November 21st, 2017, 09:50 PM
I noticed that you started a separate thread called "The Historical Gospel...." A mere two hours after your first reply to me, rather than just reply to my inquiry about what the "Historical Gospel" is. Interesting discussion tactic.


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patrick jane
November 21st, 2017, 11:08 PM
Oh, so Paul did not mean what he wrote to the Phillipeans? Where does Paul give this alternate meaning and clarification? It appears that you are suggesting meanings not found in Scripture, which are in fact contrary to what is plainly written.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

chair
November 22nd, 2017, 04:44 AM
..

Organized religion is a product of Catholicism and Judaism. ...

Judaism is very unorganized, and has been for about 2,000 years.Very different from the Catholic Church. But don't let facts get in your way.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 08:19 AM
Oh, so Paul did not mean what he wrote to the Phillipeans? Where does Paul give this alternate meaning and clarification? It appears that you are suggesting meanings not found in Scripture, which are in fact contrary to what is plainly written.


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What work do you think that you can do as a sinner that will please God? Do you believe that God is the minister of sin?

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 08:24 AM
Judaism is very unorganized, and has been for about 2,000 years.Very different from the Catholic Church. But don't let facts get in your way.

Both Catholicism and Judaism are law based religions. They are very similar in a lot of different ways.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 08:25 AM
I noticed that you started a separate thread called "The Historical Gospel...." A mere two hours after your first reply to me, rather than just reply to my inquiry about what the "Historical Gospel" is. Interesting discussion tactic.


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No tactic. Just happened that way.

fishrovmen
November 22nd, 2017, 08:58 AM
No tactic. Just happened that way.

It's been just happening that way hundreds of times over many years. What are the odds of that?

jsanford108
November 22nd, 2017, 10:46 AM
What work do you think that you can do as a sinner that will please God? Do you believe that God is the minister of sin?

Why must you avoid all questions and criticism with off-topic questions?

Can you not provide Scripture that provides the alternate meanings that you suggest? No? Not surprised.


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Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 10:48 AM
It's been just happening that way hundreds of times over many years. What are the odds of that?

Is someone forcing you to read what I post? If you don't like what I post why don't you put me on your ignore list?

fishrovmen
November 22nd, 2017, 11:39 AM
Is someone forcing you to read what I post? If you don't like what I post why don't you put me on your ignore list?

I would cite Ephesians 5:11 but you wouldn't understand it.

2003cobra
November 22nd, 2017, 11:51 AM
The good work of the kingdom of God is the Gospel of Jesus Christ that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

The gospel is the good news. I don’t think of news as work.

To love your neighbor and the actions resulting from that love Was what I meant.

Christians often get distracted with pushing minor or unimportant points of doctrine or interpretation while neglecting the more important things.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 02:05 PM
I would cite Ephesians 5:11 but you wouldn't understand it.


Anyone that embraces Calvinism is in darkness.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 02:07 PM
The gospel is the good news. I don’t think of news as work.

To love your neighbor and the actions resulting from that love Was what I meant.

Christians often get distracted with pushing minor or unimportant points of doctrine or interpretation while neglecting the more important things.

The most important doctrine in the Bible is the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you know that everything else becomes clear.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 06:57 PM
Both Catholicism and Judaism are law based religions. They are very similar in a lot of different ways.
Law, even God's Law, and organized religion, are not the same thing. Many do not even consider Judaism to be a religion.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 08:46 PM
Law, even God's Law, and organized religion, are not the same thing. Many do not even consider Judaism to be a religion.

The law is anything that tells you to do something or not to do something. Judaism is the mother of all religions.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 08:53 PM
The law is anything that tells you to do something or not to do something. Judaism is the mother of all religions.
Interesting perspective.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:02 PM
Interesting perspective.

Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of God's Holy Law, Matthew 5:18. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. The Jewish religion is obsolete. This is why Paul said, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17 and not by rules, laws or religion.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 09:04 PM
Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of God's Holy Law, Matthew 5:18. The law has been fulfilled and abolished, Ephesians 2:15. The Jewish religion is obsolete. This is why Paul said, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17 and not by rules, laws or religion.
Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I believe that you have misinterpreted what you have read.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM
Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I believe that you have misinterpreted what you have read.

His mission was not to abolish the law. His mission was to provide righteousness for fallen man.

The law has been abolished, Colossians 2:14. To be under the law is to be under judgment and condemnation.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 09:17 PM
His mission was not to abolish the law. His mission was to provide righteousness for fallen man.

The law has been abolished, Colossians 2:14. To be under the law is to be under judgment and condemnation.
Incorrect. I am not under the law. The law has not been abolished.

Ktoyou
November 22nd, 2017, 09:22 PM
Incorrect. I am not under the law. The law has not been abolished.

Right, if you are Jewish. God loves the Jews and will fulfill His prophecy. Any true MAD will agree with me on this.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:23 PM
Incorrect. I am not under the law. The law has not been abolished.

The law has been abolished for those that are "In Christ". I don't think that you are there.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 09:26 PM
The law has been abolished for those that are "In Christ". I don't think that you are there.
I do not believe that the law has been abolished and I do believe that I am in Christ.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:31 PM
Right, if you are Jewish. God loves the Jews and will fulfill His prophecy. Any true MAD will agree with me on this.

God fulfilled all of the promises that he had made to the Jewish people when he Gave them Jesus Christ. There is nothing further.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:33 PM
I do not believe that the law has been abolished and I do believe that I am in Christ.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness for your salvation and not your own.

Ktoyou
November 22nd, 2017, 09:36 PM
God fulfilled all of the promises that he had made to the Jewish people when he Gave them Jesus Christ. There is nothing further.

The Jews rejected Christ; He is coming back to redeem them.

Robert Pate
November 22nd, 2017, 09:39 PM
The Jews rejected Christ; He is coming back to redeem them.

The Jews are now in the same boat as the Gentiles. There is now no difference between them. Salvation is still by grace through faith.

Jacob
November 22nd, 2017, 09:44 PM
To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness for your salvation and not your own.
I understand and can agree with your definition. It is not the only definition, likely.

Ktoyou
November 22nd, 2017, 09:51 PM
The Jews are now in the same boat as the Gentiles. There is now no difference between them. Salvation is still by grace through faith.

Not going to argue with you about it, you are not MAD. You seem to have a need to always be right.

Robert Pate
November 23rd, 2017, 10:04 AM
Not going to argue with you about it, you are not MAD. You seem to have a need to always be right.

I do have a need to want to be right, but right according to the Bible.

Paul said there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile, Romans 3:29, 30.