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Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 10:46 AM
The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":


"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":


"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:


"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 11:07 AM
The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":


"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":


"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:


"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?

Epoisses
November 13th, 2017, 11:11 AM
The Westminster Confession of Faith represents a theological consensus of international Calvinism. There we read that the "death in sin" of Adam and Eve is conveyed to all of their posterity by original generation":


"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/3).

The Calvinists then say that since man is deprived of original righteousness all men come out of the womb "made opposite to all good and wholly inclined to all evil":


"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).

If the Calvinists are right then God punishes mankind for doing exactly what He designed them to do:


"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).

Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

Right Divider
November 13th, 2017, 11:18 AM
Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?
There was always a faithful remnant that did not reject God. What about them?

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 11:34 AM
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
I Kings 19:18

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 12:39 PM
Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God? What possible justification is there for them to reject God even in the face of all He did in their deliverance?

They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 12:54 PM
They missed the pleasures of sin. Is that not reason enough? They wanted this life easier and more gratifying for the flesh. They were hungry for better food, they argued and they pleased themselves.

In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:07 PM
In other words, they were subject to the fallen nature.

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
What exactly are you saying?
God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
Many are called few are chosen.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:12 PM
This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

Can do NOTHING good?
You are not considering the full counsel of God.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:17 PM
There are many who still have not repented of believing some falseness or another.

There is still falseness intertwined with what is true.

We can do right and obey then be saved.

Why teach that we cannot?

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 01:31 PM
Did Moses, Aaron, and Miriam?
What exactly are you saying?
God gives ears and sight to those who obey and repent.
Many are called few are chosen.

They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:9-10

The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 01:35 PM
Why did Israel - in spite of all God did on their behalf in delivering them from slavery, from the hands of the Egyptians and leading them through the wilderness - why did they turn from God?

The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

That is the peril of free will.

If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:37 PM
They saw. Remember the order God gave Isaiah :

And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isaiah 6:9-10

The point being that the opening of the heart, eyes and ears has to come first.

What you say is not true.

Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 01:41 PM
What you say is not true.

Those who have a right heart are the ones who hear and see, for God makes sure of that.

Jesus tells us how to makes our hearts right.

JESUS TELLS US HOW to make our hearts right.

Jesus saves those who obey him EVEN IF THEY do not understand but obey ANYWAYS.

You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:43 PM
You're arguing things that can only follow what comes first. Without a foundation, none of this is even possible. Why not obey the next man who comes along and says "God says to do X" when X is not exactly what is in scripture? Because those who are His will hear His voice. Not those who hear His voice will be His.

What are you talking about? Jesus tells us what to obey.

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 01:43 PM
We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good.

If a person can do nothing good because of his nature then how do you explain what Paul wrote here in "bold":


"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:46 PM
Jesus tells ALL what to do.

All have a chance to be saved.

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 01:49 PM
The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

That is the peril of free will.

If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.

The prerequisite?

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Romans 1:19

Likewise, the Israelites hadn't been given a heart, ears or eyes to grasp God's revelation even though He made a covenant with them :

These are the words of the covenant, which the Lord commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.
And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.
Ye have not eaten bread, neither have ye drunk wine or strong drink: that ye might know that I am the Lord your God.
Deuteronomy 29:1-6

Because we are dead in trespasses and sin, we can't see. But that also means our default position is rebellion against God. Just as the descendants of the Israelites around in Isaiah's day would be made to be hardened to the Word of God by God's own decree (and still be judged)...just as the infants of Isaiah 9 were still slaughtered for what their parents did - man still suffers the consequences of Adam's sin and yet bears responsibility himself. God is able to keep man from sinning but He doesn't. Does that mean we hold Him responsible for man's sin?

nikolai_42
November 13th, 2017, 01:50 PM
What are you talking about? Jesus tells us what to obey.

Why listen? What is it about His command that is compelling? Why not listen to someone else instead?

glorydaz
November 13th, 2017, 01:52 PM
This teaching is correct. We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin which we inherit in our sinful natures that can do nothing good. This is Christianity 101 where all men are born sinners and morally corrupt. There wouldn't be much need of a savior to save us from sin if we weren't sinners.....duh! This teaching has nothing to do with predestination but simply states man's true condition which is fallen, corrupt and evil.

All men?

The Lord Jesus Christ was made like us in every way.


Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Epoisses
November 13th, 2017, 01:54 PM
All men?

The Lord Jesus Christ was made like us in every way.


Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Still can't admit that you're a sinner? Jesus has nothing for you, he came to save sinners not righteous people.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:56 PM
No!

Jesus tells us HOW TO BE HIS.

You neglect that.

Jesus tells US HOW TO BECOME HIS so that you can hear and see.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 01:59 PM
Why listen? What is it about His command that is compelling? Why not listen to someone else instead?

Because some want more out of this life than to please their flesh.

We are FLESH, but we are spirit too.

Some people are more spiritual, they want more out of life.

Don't limit yourself to the teachings of men.

Think about it and keep discussing this with me.

Jesus is the way and tells people what to do to get saved.

No one already belonged to God when they were born.

When Jesus came, he came for those who already belonged to God.

There is another generation of people after Jesus died.

Jesus came and tells all who wants to be saved how to be saved.

glorydaz
November 13th, 2017, 02:07 PM
If a person can do nothing good because of his nature then how do you explain what Paul wrote here in "bold":


"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

Why people can't see that man was created with a human nature that is free to choose which path to take is beyond me. We live in a body of flesh and are susceptible to the lusts of the flesh. To claim that is a sinful nature is to accuse God of creating sinners. Blaming it all on Adam is one of the biggest lies perpetrated by organised religion since organised religion came into existence. Man always seeks an excuse for why he sins.

glorydaz
November 13th, 2017, 02:09 PM
Still can't admit that you're a sinner? Jesus has nothing for you, he came to save sinners not righteous people.

Are you retarded? I was talking about the Lord Jesus Christ, made like unto us.

When you have no answer to what is posted, just move along instead of taking the time to show us how stupid you are.

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 02:10 PM
Because we are dead in trespasses and sin, we can't see.

No, people cannot see because they corrupted themselves, just like other men who had done the same thing:


"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth" (Gen.6:12).

In order for something to be corrupted that thing must originally be in a state that can only be described as "good," i.e. not corrupt.

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 02:14 PM
Man always seeks an excuse for why he sins.

Yes, EXACTLY!

Some people just refuse to take total responsibility for their sins!

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 02:16 PM
Still can't admit that you're a sinner? Jesus has nothing for you, he came to save sinners not righteous people.

All are sinners.

Jesus came to save those who ADMIT they are sinners.

That is what Jesus says to do to be one whom he saves.

Those people are the righteous.

That is how to have the righteousness that leads to salvation.

Romans 6:16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 03:47 PM
I guess that the Calvinists have run out of answers!

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 03:56 PM
I guess that the Calvinists have run out of answers!

Calvinism is false and Lutheranism is false, and faith alone is false.

Jesus came to tell ALL the Way to salvation.

Jesus knew that the way would be written and it was written so that people would believe and obey.

Jesus tells us HOW TO be the one he saves.

He tells us to to prepare our hearts for him to live there and make his home.

Jesus tells us what to do to prepare our hearts for him to live there.

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 06:25 PM
and faith alone is false.

Then Paul and those with Him must have been in error because the answer they gave to the question of how a person can be saved speaks of believing and nothing but believing:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Of course there will always be some who think that Paul just forgot to name everything that it takes for a person to be saved!

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 08:27 PM
Then Paul and those with Him must have been in error because the answer they gave to the question of how a person can be saved speaks of believing and nothing but believing:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Of course there will always be some who think that Paul just forgot to name everything that it takes for a person to be saved!

You mean like this:

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Did you read that?

Paul is speaking about to who he preached and what.

What did Paul preach?

Paul preached repent and have faith.

Now read this next scripture, for Paul is preaching to the Greeks who had not heard yet, and what does Paul preach? Paul preaches REPENT.

Acts 17:30 Therefore, although God has overlooked such times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Jerry Shugart
November 13th, 2017, 10:06 PM
The Greek word translated "repent" means a change of mind. Going from unbelief to belief.

And of course you pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you refuse to believe so you said nothing about what is said at Acts 16:30-31.

God's Truth
November 13th, 2017, 10:07 PM
The Greek word translated "repent" means a change of mind. Going from unbelief to belief.
Change your mind about sin and stop doing it.



And of course you pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you refuse to believe so you said nothing about what is said at Acts 16:30-31.

What would you like to talk about?

You reject the truth that we have to believe to be saved, believe what? Believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world and we have to repent of those sins.

All the scriptures that say 'believe', they do not nullify all the scriptures that say 'obey'.

ttruscott
November 15th, 2017, 01:06 PM
Anyone who would dare support this evil teaching is as warped as The Westminster Confession of Faith!

Yet when I ask WHY GOD would make HIS future bride disgusting in corruption and evil in Adam, they deny that this is their meaning of the their confession. Anyone who thinks GOD forced us to be created evil or even tainted in the least is under a strong delusion....GOD is love and there is no way our inheriting anything tainted from Adam is loving.

Jerry Shugart
November 15th, 2017, 01:37 PM
All the scriptures that say 'believe', they do not nullify all the scriptures that say 'obey'.

How Paul and those with him answered the following question demonstates that once a person believes he is saved:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

The answer given is either true or it is false. If "obedience" is also required to be saved then Paul and those with him made a huge blunder because they should have answered, "Believe AND obey...and thou shall be saved."

According to your ideas we must believe that Paul and those with him gave an incorrect answer because they failed to mention obedience along with believing.

Do you really think that they all blundered and just left out something which is essential to salvation?

Jerry Shugart
November 15th, 2017, 01:44 PM
Yet when I ask WHY GOD would make HIS future bride disgusting in corruption and evil in Adam, they deny that this is their meaning of the their confession. Anyone who thinks GOD forced us to be created evil or even tainted in the least is under a strong delusion....GOD is love and there is no way our inheriting anything tainted from Adam is loving.

STRONG DELUSION is right.


"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 Jn.1:5).

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 02:23 PM
All the scriptures that say 'believe', they do not nullify all the scriptures that say 'obey'.

Yes, they do. That's what GRACE is all about.

How you can deny this is beyond me. THAT IN THE AGES TO COME.....all glory will go to the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one will be able to claim they did anything to receive this GIFT.


Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 02:40 PM
Yes, they do. That's what GRACE is all about.

NO. God did NOT NULLIFY all His words!

God did not nail Jesus' words to the cross.



How you can deny this is beyond me. THAT IN THE AGES TO COME.....all glory will go to the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one will be able to claim they did anything to receive this GIFT.
How do you EVER get that it gives glory to Jesus to nullify his words?





Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

A gift to His CHILDREN. You have to first become a child of His!

Not of yourselves mean you don't have to do the ceremonial works to purify yourself because Jesus will do it.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 02:47 PM
How Paul and those with him answered the following question demonstates that once a person believes he is saved:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).
They had to hear the message that saves, and that message is about FORGIVENESS OF THE SINS YOU REPENT OF DOING.



The answer given is either true or it is false. If "obedience" is also required to be saved then Paul and those with him made a huge blunder because they should have answered, "Believe AND obey...and thou shall be saved."

Paul does say that but you ignore and deny those scriptures!!!


Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.



According to your ideas we must believe that Paul and those with him gave an incorrect answer because they failed to mention obedience along with believing.

Do you really think that they all blundered and just left out something which is essential to salvation?

Do you really want to do away with ALL the scriptures, all the words of God telling us to obey? Do you really want to say Jesus came and gave all those teachings to have them nullified?

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 02:50 PM
NO. God did NOT NULLIFY all His words!

God did not nail Jesus' words to the cross.


How do you EVER get that it gives glory to Jesus to nullify his words?



A gift to His CHILDREN. You have to first become a child of His!

Not of yourselves mean you don't have to do the ceremonial works to purify yourself because Jesus will do it.

Yep, the very thought of Jesus getting all the glory makes her hair stand on end.

Why am I not surprised? :chew:

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 02:52 PM
They had to hear the message that saves, and that message is about FORGIVENESS OF THE SINS YOU REPENT OF DOING.



Paul does say that but you ignore and deny those scriptures!!!


Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.



Do you really want to do away with ALL the scriptures, all the words of God telling us to obey? Do you really want to say Jesus came and gave all those teachings to have them nullified?

You're doing your regular job of trolling.
This thread is not about you.
It is about original sin.

Go away or discuss the topic. :troll:

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 02:53 PM
You're doing your regular job of trolling.
This thread is not about you.
It is about original sin.

Go away or discuss the topic. :troll:

I answered someone who QUOTED ME and asked me a question.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 02:54 PM
Yep, the very thought of Jesus getting all the glory makes her hair stand on end.

Why am I not surprised? :chew:

I can hardly believe that you said grace NULLIFIES the Word.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 02:57 PM
I am going to keep that one, glorydazed.

You said grace (which Paul preaches), NULLIFIES the Father and Jesus telling us to obey.

I am glad that you finally said it.

This is major.

I have been trying to get you to understand that that is what your teachings imply---and you finally get it and are proud of it.

Unbelievable.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 03:01 PM
No, Paul did not come around and preach that he is given a special gospel that nullifies all of God's words about obeying.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:11 PM
No, Paul did not come around and preach that he is given a special gospel that nullifies all of God's words about obeying.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Original sin.....do you think Adam's sin is passed down to all men?

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:12 PM
I can hardly believe that you said grace NULLIFIES the Word.

I didn't say that. No wonder you can't ever respond aright.

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:14 PM
I am going to keep that one, glorydazed.

You said grace (which Paul preaches), NULLIFIES the Father and Jesus telling us to obey.

I am glad that you finally said it.

This is major.

I have been trying to get you to understand that that is what your teachings imply---and you finally get it and are proud of it.

Unbelievable.

:chuckle:

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:20 PM
Then Paul and those with Him must have been in error because the answer they gave to the question of how a person can be saved speaks of believing and nothing but believing:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Of course there will always be some who think that Paul just forgot to name everything that it takes for a person to be saved!

True. They are unable to grasp the amazing Gift we're offered because of our Lord's work on the cross. They simply refuse to believe they don't have to DO something to earn eternal life. Man is ever seeking to steal the glory that belongs to God alone. :sigh:


Then, on the other side, they claim, because of Adam's sin, we are unable to hear the Good News of Salvation. Go figure.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 03:33 PM
I didn't say that. No wonder you can't ever respond aright.

You did say it.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 03:35 PM
Original sin.....do you think Adam's sin is passed down to all men?

You think God told Adam and Eve to obey and didn't mean it? How about what God said to Cain? Noah? Abraham? Job?

So all that obeying talk is meaningless now, according to you, according to grace.

You should have so much fear for saying such a thing.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 03:36 PM
True. They are unable to grasp the amazing Gift we're offered because of our Lord's work on the cross. They simply refuse to believe they don't have to DO something to earn eternal life. Man is ever seeking to steal the glory that belongs to God alone. :sigh:


Then, on the other side, they claim, because of Adam's sin, we are unable to hear the Good News of Salvation. Go figure.

Uh yeah but Jerry said that to me and I do not believe like that.

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:38 PM
You think God told Adam and Eve to obey and didn't mean it? How about what God said to Cain? Noah? Abraham? Job?

So all that obeying talk is meaningless now, according to you, according to grace.

You should have so much fear for saying such a thing.

I don't have any fear. That's the assurance that you will never know.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 03:40 PM
I don't have any fear. That's the assurance that you will never know.

You don't know enough to fear.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:52 PM
You did say it.

Don't lie about me. You claimed I said, "grace NULLIFIES the Word". You lied.

Grace does eliminate our need to obey in order to be saved.

Which is why Paul preached, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

Paul doesn't preach what you do. He preaches "believe unto righteousness".

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 03:58 PM
You don't know enough to fear.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.

I know enough to realize I'm on the safe side of that text. I'm persuading you to be reconciled. Your obedience won't accomplish that.

Jerry Shugart
November 15th, 2017, 04:45 PM
They had to hear the message that saves, and that message is about FORGIVENESS OF THE SINS YOU REPENT OF DOING.

Paul says nothing about repenting of sins in order to be saved:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

"Believing" on the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT the same as repenting of sins!

Are you really this dense?

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 05:51 PM
Paul says nothing about repenting of sins in order to be saved:


"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

"Believing" on the Lord Jesus Christ is NOT the same as repenting of sins!

Are you really this dense?

You are. Now explain to me WHAT they have to believe about Jesus Christ. Duh.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 05:52 PM
I know enough to realize I'm on the safe side of that text. I'm persuading you to be reconciled. Your obedience won't accomplish that.

Only those who do right are on the right side.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 05:56 PM
Don't lie about me. You claimed I said, "grace NULLIFIES the Word". You lied.

Grace does eliminate our need to obey in order to be saved.

Which is why Paul preached, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved."

Paul doesn't preach what you do. He preaches "believe unto righteousness".

You said grace nullifies all the scriptures about obeying. You did say it because that is what your false doctrines imply anyways. So now you say grace does not eliminate our need to obey in order to be saved. Good for you, you finally are preach we have to obey. I think you are really slipping up, or you are finally coming to the truth but pretending like you are not? That is not a right heart. You have to admit to being wrong and repent. So then, glad to finally hear you preach obedience, but so sad that you did not admit you had it wrong before.

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 05:59 PM
I don't lie, glorydazed.

You said it and it is here in print.


Originally Posted by God's Truth

All the scriptures that say 'believe', they do not nullify all the scriptures that say 'obey'.



Glorydazed: "Yes, they do. That's what GRACE is all about."

How you can deny this is beyond me. THAT IN THE AGES TO COME.....all glory will go to the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one will be able to claim they did anything to receive this GIFT.

Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

End.



Yes, they do. That's what GRACE is all about.

How you can deny this is beyond me. THAT IN THE AGES TO COME.....all glory will go to the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one will be able to claim they did anything to receive this GIFT.


Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 06:01 PM
No, the riches from God are not, "Satan and you sinners all win, no one has to obey anymore."

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 07:03 PM
You said grace nullifies all the scriptures about obeying. You did say it because that is what your false doctrines imply anyways. So now you say grace does not eliminate our need to obey in order to be saved. Good for you, you finally are preach we have to obey. I think you are really slipping up, or you are finally coming to the truth but pretending like you are not? That is not a right heart. You have to admit to being wrong and repent. So then, glad to finally hear you preach obedience, but so sad that you did not admit you had it wrong before.

I didn't say that, either. :doh:

You clearly have a problem reading what has been written. That explains why you preach so much error.

glorydaz
November 15th, 2017, 07:04 PM
No, the riches from God are not, "Satan and you sinners all win, no one has to obey anymore."

You are truly ignorant. :troll:

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 07:13 PM
I didn't say that, either. :doh:

You clearly have a problem reading what has been written. That explains why you preach so much error.

I think you are just really confused and know you can't defend your beliefs anymore.

Jerry Shugart
November 15th, 2017, 10:56 PM
You are. Now explain to me WHAT they have to believe about Jesus Christ. Duh.

They are to believe the gospel of Christ (see 1 Cor.15:1-4) and believing that gospel results in salvation (Ro.1:16).

There is nothing in the gospel of Christ which says anything about obeying. Duh!

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 11:16 PM
They are to believe the gospel of Christ (see 1 Cor.15:1-4) and believing that gospel results in salvation (Ro.1:16).

There is nothing in the gospel of Christ which says anything about obeying. Duh!

Answer in your own words what we are to believe about Jesus. duh

beloved57
November 15th, 2017, 11:50 PM
The same reason why Adam sinned. He was created spiritually alive but despite that he went his own way instead of the LORD's way.

That is the peril of free will.

If a person sins because of his nature then he would have an excuse for sinning but the Scriptures reveal that a man is without excuse.
False comments not in scripture !

beloved57
November 15th, 2017, 11:53 PM
They are to believe the gospel of Christ (see 1 Cor.15:1-4) and believing that gospel results in salvation (Ro.1:16).

There is nothing in the gospel of Christ which says anything about obeying. Duh!

The Gospel is hid to them that are Lost so they believe not. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

beloved57
November 15th, 2017, 11:56 PM
No, the riches from God are not, "Satan and you sinners all win, no one has to obey anymore."

Christ obeyed and because of His One Obedience many are made righteous Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You never speak of Christ's obedience and what it accomplished, but rather want to bring attention to yourself and what you have done !

God's Truth
November 15th, 2017, 11:56 PM
They are to believe the gospel of Christ (see 1 Cor.15:1-4) and believing that gospel results in salvation (Ro.1:16).

There is nothing in the gospel of Christ which says anything about obeying. Duh!

Notice that you keep saying 'believe', 'believe', 'believe.

Notice that keep giving those scriptures that say 'believe'.

Why won't you tell us WHAT we are supposed to believe about Jesus?

glorydaz
November 16th, 2017, 12:09 AM
Christ obeyed and because of His One Obedience many are made righteous Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You never speak of Christ's obedience and what it accomplished, but rather want to bring attention to yourself and what you have done !


:first:

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 12:11 AM
Christ obeyed and because of His One Obedience many are made righteous Rom 5:19

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

You never speak of Christ's obedience and what it accomplished, but rather want to bring attention to yourself and what you have done !


Christ obeyed and because of that we have someone to obey.

How can you miss that so pathetically?

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

Never speak of Christ's obedience? Obeying everything he commands for salvation is to honor him and trust him.

glorydaz
November 16th, 2017, 12:22 AM
Notice that you keep saying 'believe', 'believe', 'believe.

Notice that keep giving those scriptures that say 'believe'.

Why won't you tell us WHAT we are supposed to believe about Jesus?

That's how it is on the Grace side of the Cross. Not used to that, are you?

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 01:12 AM
That's how it is on the Grace side of the Cross. Not used to that, are you?

We have to believe the message that saves, and that is that Jesus forgives sins. Forgives sins that you don't have to repent of? NEVER, for Jesus SAYS repent or perish.

glorydaz
November 16th, 2017, 01:17 AM
We have to believe the message that saves, and that is that Jesus forgives sins. Forgives sins that you don't have to repent of? NEVER, for Jesus SAYS repent or perish.

Actually, He says believe or perish. You need to stop making things up.


John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 01:18 AM
Actually, He says believe or perish. You need to stop making things up.


John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 01:19 AM
Actually, He says believe or perish. You need to stop making things up.


John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.


Do you get it now? We have to believe that we have to repent of our sins. That is what we have to believe.

beloved57
November 16th, 2017, 01:23 AM
Christ obeyed and because of that we have someone to obey.

How can you miss that so pathetically?

John 15:10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

Never speak of Christ's obedience? Obeying everything he commands for salvation is to honor him and trust him.

You want to bring attention to yourself. Boasting!

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 01:34 AM
You want to bring attention to yourself. Boasting!

Paul boasted in us and in himself and tells us to do the same.

Right Divider
November 16th, 2017, 08:37 AM
Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
You're such a cherry-picker...


Rom 11:29 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:29) For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 09:02 AM
You're such a cherry-picker...


Rom 11:29 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:29) For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

That scripture means the gifts are irrevocable.

As for you saying a scripture is cherry picked, do you really think that you can dismiss something from Jesus that way?

Jerry Shugart
November 16th, 2017, 09:09 AM
Answer in your own words what we are to believe about Jesus. duh

Are you really this dense or do you have a hidden agenda?

I already told you that the gospel is spoken about by Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and there is not a single word about obedience!

But that means nothing to you because all you do all day long is to pour scorn on the Scriptures.

Right Divider
November 16th, 2017, 09:10 AM
That scripture means the gifts are irrevocable.

I know that. That is my point. Repent means a change of mind.


As for you saying a scripture is cherry picked, do you really think that you can dismiss something from Jesus that way?
I did NOT say that (as usual you try to TWIST someones words). I said that YOU cherry-pick verses while COMPLETELY IGNORING others.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 09:38 AM
I know that. That is my point. Repent means a change of mind.
No kidding.

Change your mind ABOUT WHAT?


I did NOT say that (as usual you try to TWIST someones words). I said that YOU cherry-pick verses while COMPLETELY IGNORING others.

Picking a scripture that rebukes you is NOT a defense to say I am ignoring other scriptures. Scripture does NOT nullify scripture.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 09:41 AM
Are you really this dense or do you have a hidden agenda?

I already told you that the gospel is spoken about by Paul at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and there is not a single word about obedience!

But that means nothing to you because all you do all day long is to pour scorn on the Scriptures.

You are afraid to answer WHAT we are supposed to obey about Jesus.

That means you have no business acting as if you have the truth and are a teacher of it; and you definitely have no business calling anyone dense; you prove you are, or you would answer.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 09:43 AM
We are told to believe Jesus, but many here can't explain what it is that we have to believe.

These people who can't tell don't see that they can't tell for a reason. They attack people as being dense, but you can't see that you are. Why not tell what we are to believe about Jesus?

Right Divider
November 16th, 2017, 09:44 AM
No kidding.

Change your mind ABOUT WHAT?

That depends on what that PARTICULAR scripture is talking about.


1Sam 15:35 (AKJV/PCE)

(15:35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.


Picking a scripture that rebukes you is NOT a defense to say I am ignoring other scriptures. Scripture does NOT nullify scripture.
No, but you try to.

Jerry Shugart
November 16th, 2017, 09:57 AM
You are afraid to answer WHAT we are supposed to obey about Jesus.

We should obey everything which we are told to obey. But that is not a condition for salvation!


That means you have no business acting as if you have the truth and are a teacher of it; and you definitely have no business calling anyone dense; you prove you are, or you would answer.

The Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is belief in the gospel of Christ that results in salvation (Ro.1:16). And as I have already said, Paul speaks of that gospel at 1 Cor.15:1-4 and there is not a word in that gospel about obedience--only belief!

But you prove over and over that you don't care what the Scriptures reveal!

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 10:14 AM
That depends on what that PARTICULAR scripture is talking about.


1Sam 15:35 (AKJV/PCE)

(15:35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.


No, but you try to.

Again, what are we to change our mind about?!

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 10:18 AM
We should obey everything which we are told to obey. But that is not a condition for salvation!
Of course obeying what the way says to do is a condition of salvation!



The Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that it is belief in the gospel of Christ that results in salvation (Ro.1:16). And as I have already said, Paul speaks of that gospel at 1 Cor.15:1-4 and there is not a word in that gospel about obedience--only belief!

But you prove over and over that you don't care what the Scriptures reveal!

We have to believe that we have to repent of our sins!

Jesus died for those sins you refuse to repent of.

Jesus says repent or perish.

beloved57
November 16th, 2017, 10:52 AM
Paul boasted in us and in himself and tells us to do the same.

So you are admitting you are a boaster. Thats sinful ! And you place more value on yourself than on Christ when it comes to Salvatio !

Right Divider
November 16th, 2017, 10:54 AM
Again, what are we to change our mind about?!
You cannot understand even the simplest of things. As as said in the previous post: That depends on what that PARTICULAR scripture is talking about.


Acts 8:18-22 (AKJV/PCE)

(8:18) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, (8:19) Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. (8:20) But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. (8:21) Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (8:22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

In THIS PARTICULAR case, Simon was to repent of ONE PARTICULAR SIN. Can you figure out what that is? Probably not.

beloved57
November 16th, 2017, 10:54 AM
Of course obeying what the way says to do is a condition of salvation!



We have to believe that we have to repent of our sins!

Jesus died for those sins you refuse to repent of.

Jesus says repent or perish.

False statements not found in scripture. Those Christ died for have been reconciled to God by His death while they are unrepented enemies Rom 5:10.

Jerry Shugart
November 16th, 2017, 11:47 AM
We have to believe that we have to repent of our sins!

Yes, we are to repent of our sins but that is not a condition of salvation.

As I said, the Scriptures reveal that it is those who believe the gospel who are saved (Ro.1:16) and the gospel says nothing about repenting of sins!

iouae
November 16th, 2017, 11:58 AM
The whole idea of "original sin" is not just a problem for the Calvinists, but is for all Christians.

It is such a load of crock that the sin of one man, six thousand years ago, somehow infected all humanity ever since.

First, sin is not contagious. It cannot be caught.

Second, it is not genetic, that it can be passed down in the chromosomes.

Third, it is unbiblical to punish the children for the fathers.


Fourth, the dinosaurs such as T. rex were eating other dinosaurs such as Triceratops, 65 million years before Adam and Eve. Thus death existed from the Cambrian.

Fifth, sin did not enter the world by one man, it entered by one woman. Let us not treat the sexes unequally.

Sixth, sin and death did not enter the world by one man, called Adam because Adam lived a rich, long life of 900 years. Death entered the world through Cain slaying Abel. And God blamed Cain, not Adam.

Seventh, the death Paul referred to which entered the world was HUMAN death. We know that because God told Adam and Eve that THEY would surely die meaning human death.

Eighth, the first recorded death was performed by God killing a sheep to clothe Adam and Eve. Thus death entered by God.

I could go on and on, but sufficient to say that there is enough guilt to go around. I die for MY sins, not Adam or Eve's. Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Notice that it is the soul doing the sinning that does the dying. Not the children dying because of the father.

Likewise, it is the person who eats the sour grapes who's teeth are set on edge, not the children's for the fathers eating the grapes. Our teeth are not on edge because Adam or Eve (our parents). Eek 18:2

Man is fallen because every soul chooses to sin as they reach the age they can be accountable. That is why the world is fallen.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 08:55 PM
Yes, we are to repent of our sins but that is not a condition of salvation.

As I said, the Scriptures reveal that it is those who believe the gospel who are saved (Ro.1:16) and the gospel says nothing about repenting of sins!

You can't get saved unless you obey; see Acts 5:32.

We have to repent of our sins.


Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. 21Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft.


Revelation 16:11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


2 Chronicles 6:37 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captivity and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong and acted wickedly’;

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. None of them repent of their wickedness, saying, “What have I done?” Each pursues their own course like a horse charging into battle.

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 08:55 PM
You cannot understand even the simplest of things. As as said in the previous post: That depends on what that PARTICULAR scripture is talking about.


Acts 8:18-22 (AKJV/PCE)

(8:18) And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, (8:19) Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. (8:20) But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. (8:21) Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. (8:22) Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

In THIS PARTICULAR case, Simon was to repent of ONE PARTICULAR SIN. Can you figure out what that is? Probably not.

We have to repent of our sins. If you do not it is on you.

God's Truth
November 16th, 2017, 08:56 PM
So you are admitting you are a boaster. Thats sinful ! And you place more value on yourself than on Christ when it comes to Salvatio !

You should not say what Paul says as lies.

beloved57
November 16th, 2017, 09:12 PM
You should not say what Paul says as lies.

You are a boaster, that's sin!

Jerry Shugart
November 16th, 2017, 09:45 PM
You can't get saved unless you obey

Again, a person is saved when the believe the gospel of which Paul speaks about at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

And there is not a single word about obeying anything in the gospel.

And so far you haven't offered anything which changes those facts.

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 12:31 AM
Again, a person is saved when the believe the gospel of which Paul speaks about at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

And there is not a single word about obeying anything in the gospel.

And so far you haven't offered anything which changes those facts.

The gospel is forgiveness of sins through Jesus.

You have to ask for that forgiveness.

You have to believe what Jesus says, and that is to repent of your sins, or perish.

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 12:33 AM
You are a boaster, that's sin!

Is Paul sinning when he boasts and tells us to boast too?

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 01:37 AM
Is Paul sinning when he boasts and tells us to boast too?

Paul is a believer in Christ but you aren't so no comparison. You teach that sinners Christ died for are lost.You deny Christ but Paul doesn't.

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 01:45 AM
The gospel is forgiveness of sins through Jesus.

You have to ask for that forgiveness.

You have to believe what Jesus says, and that is to repent of your sins, or perish.

False teaching. You believe that sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned,unforgiven!

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 01:48 AM
Again, a person is saved when the believe the gospel of which Paul speaks about at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

And there is not a single word about obeying anything in the gospel.

And so far you haven't offered anything which changes those facts.

False teaching. A lost person cant believe the Gospel because its hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 09:00 AM
False teaching. A lost person cant believe the Gospel because its hid to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3

If you will actually read the verse you cited you will see that those who are perishing could have believed the gospel and been saved if they had not been blinded to it's light:


"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

Why does Satan blind the mind of those who are perishing?

So that they cannot see the light of the gospel.

That means that if they weren't blinded then they could see the light.

But according to the false teaching of the Calvinists those who are perishing could never ever possibly see its light!

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 09:05 AM
You have to believe what Jesus says, and that is to repent of your sins, or perish.

Why are you always perverting what the Scriptures reveal?

Salvation comes as a result of believing the gospel (Ro.1:16) and the gospel will be searched in vain for words which speak of anyone repenting of their sins!

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 09:18 AM
If you will actually read the verse you cited you will see that those who are perishing could have believed the gospel and been saved if they had not been blinded to it's light:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).

Why does Satan blind the mind of those who are perishing?

So that they cannot see the light of the gospel.

That means that if they weren't blinded then they could see the light.

But according to the false teaching of the Calvinists those who are perishing could never ever possibly see its light!

Those perishing, the lost cant believe the Gospel because its hid to them that are lost ! 2 Cor 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Please read the red. It will read thusly:

our gospel is hid to them that are lost:

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 10:11 AM
Those perishing, the lost cant believe the Gospel because its hid to them that are lost ! 2 Cor 4:3

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Please read the red. It will read thusly:

our gospel is hid to them that are lost:

Why would the god of this age blind the mind of those who are perishing since, according to you, they cannot see the light of the gospel because they are born blind?

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 10:16 AM
Why are you always perverting what the Scriptures reveal?

Salvation comes as a result of believing the gospel (Ro.1:16) and the gospel will be searched in vain for words which speak of anyone repenting of their sins!

Jesus is the words/Word of God. What Jesus says is not vain, it will not come back to God void.

I can hardly believe that you are so ignorant.

The gospel is not, "Just believe Jesus".

The gospel is believe Jesus that we have to repent or perish.

You are ensnared, Sir.

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 10:27 AM
The gospel is believe Jesus that we have to repent or perish.

I guess that when Paul spoke about the gospel at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 he just forgot to include that!

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent" is to have a change of mind. That means going from not believing the gospel to believing it. You obviously do not believe it because it fails to say anything about obedience.

Unless you change your mind you will perish!

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 10:31 AM
Why would the god of this age blind the mind of those who are perishing since, according to you, they cannot see the light of the gospel because they are born blind?

Thats questioning Gods Truth. The Truth is folks that are lost the Gospel is permanently concealed from them. The word hid in 2 Cor 4:3 is the greek word kaluptó :

I veil, hide, conceal, envelop.

to hide, veil, i. e. to hinder the knowledge of a thing:

Also its in the perfect tense, so the Gospel is permanently concealed from them the spiritual knowledge of it. So how can they believe it ? They cant !

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 10:34 AM
Jesus is the words/Word of God. What Jesus says is not vain, it will not come back to God void.

I can hardly believe that you are so ignorant.

The gospel is not, "Just believe Jesus".

The gospel is believe Jesus that we have to repent or perish.

You are ensnared, Sir.

What jesus do you believe in ? You believe the j
Jesus of scripture died for people and those people are still lost anyways !

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 10:51 AM
I guess that when Paul spoke about the gospel at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 he just forgot to include that!

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "repent" is to have a change of mind. That means going from not believing the gospel to believing it. You obviously do not believe it because it fails to say anything about obedience.

Unless you change your mind you will perish!

Hahahaha We have to believe that Jesus says that we have to repent of our sins. You don't know what the gospel is. You say did Paul forget to say obey---but that is why Peter calls you ignorant, and unstable, and James says you are foolish.

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 11:15 AM
What jesus do you believe in ? You believe the j
Jesus of scripture died for people and those people are still lost anyways !

Why do you think the lake of fire was made? Do you think it was made because God just desires to send people to hell for not knowing any better? You wrongly teach that people don't know any better, but God says humans are like Him knowing good and evil. Your beliefs are not from God.

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 12:00 PM
Why do you think the lake of fire was made? Do you think it was made because God just desires to send people to hell for not knowing any better? You wrongly teach that people don't know any better, but God says humans are like Him knowing good and evil. Your beliefs are not from God.

Why you think Christ lived and died and rose again?

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 12:22 PM
Hahahaha We have to believe that Jesus says that we have to repent of our sins.

I never said otherwise. I said that repenting of sins is not a condition of salvation. Instead, those who believe the gospel of grace are saved and that gospel says nothing about repenting of sins.

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 04:13 PM
I never said otherwise. I said that repenting of sins is not a condition of salvation. Instead, those who believe the gospel of grace are saved and that gospel says nothing about repenting of sins.

Obeying Jesus has everything to do with obeying.

See Acts 5:32, and so many others that it would make your head spin.

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 04:16 PM
Why you think Christ lived and died and rose again?

To reconcile us to him.

The lake of fire was made for Satan and the demons.

The lake of fire will be used for those who reject Jesus.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 04:40 PM
To reconcile us to him.

The lake of fire was made for Satan and the demons.

The lake of fire will be used for those who reject Jesus.

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

You teach that sinners Christ died for will end up eternally seperated from Him, Lost !

Jerry Shugart
November 17th, 2017, 04:48 PM
Obeying Jesus has everything to do with obeying.

See Acts 5:32, and so many others that it would make your head spin.

The Greek word translated "obey" in some translations also means to hearken to something or believe something. And that is the meaning at Acts 5:32:


"And we are witnesses of these accounts, and so is The Spirit of Holiness, whom God gives to those who believe in him." (Acts 5:32; Aramaic Bible in Plain English).

That is the correct translation because Paul says that the Holy Spirit is received by faith:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Of course you argue that no one receives the Spirit by faith but instead by obeying!

I addressed Acts 5:32 now it is your turn to address Galatians 3:2.

Then show me in the gospel where it says that we must obey Him!

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 10:57 PM
You teach that sinners Christ died for will end up eternally seperated from Him, Lost !

That is why we are warned not to reject him.

Hebrews 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

God's Truth
November 17th, 2017, 11:26 PM
The Greek word translated "obey" in some translations also means to hearken to something or believe something. And that is the meaning at Acts 5:32:


"And we are witnesses of these accounts, and so is The Spirit of Holiness, whom God gives to those who believe in him." (Acts 5:32; Aramaic Bible in Plain English).
Okay, you can choose any tranlsation you want to about that word, but you still have to address the WHAT we are to believe about Jesus. Just believe in Jesus, of course, but answer what it is we are to believe.

Keep in mind the whole time you are trying to answer that question that faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone.

That is what the apostle to the Lamb says. So you think that apostle to the Lamb is going against a gospel of the Lord's? Tell me then how can you say faith alone is saving faith when James says it is dead?




That is the correct translation because Paul says that the Holy Spirit is received by faith:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Are you kidding? Do you really think that Paul is rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus too much?

Paul is rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works.

That scripture to the Galatians proves that not of works but of faith is about getting cleaned by Jesus instead of by ceremonial works.

I am only trying to help you know God better.



Of course you argue that no one receives the Spirit by faith but instead by obeying!

That is not true what you say about me. We have to obey and believe.



I addressed Acts 5:32 now it is your turn to address Galatians 3:2.

Then show me in the gospel where it says that we must obey Him!

I will show you many scriptures that say we are to obey.

Hebrews 5:9 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And in this way he was perfected and became the cause of eternal life to all those who obey him.

Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and set apart by the Spirit for obedience and for sprinkling with the blood of Jesus Christ. May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?


Romans 15:18 I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done—

Romans 16:26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—

1 John 1:6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.


There are many more scriptures.

Do you accept the things Jesus said when he walked the earth?

beloved57
November 17th, 2017, 11:38 PM
That is why we are warned not to reject him.

Hebrews 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
You deny Christ!

God's Truth
November 18th, 2017, 06:51 AM
You deny Christ!

You are the robot of your god, and he gave you to rely on insults and the inability to defend your false doctrines.

Why won't you address that scripture? Wouldn't you give it all up for God's Truth?

beloved57
November 18th, 2017, 07:09 AM
You are the robot of your god, and he gave you to rely on insults and the inability to defend your false doctrines.

Why won't you address that scripture? Wouldn't you give it all up for God's Truth?

All you do is deny Christ like a robot!

God's Truth
November 18th, 2017, 07:10 AM
All you do is deny Christ like a robot!

I do no such thing.

What is the matter? You don't like it that your god programs you?

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 08:06 AM
Tell me then how can you say faith alone is saving faith when James says it is dead?

As far as other men can see, if a Christian does not have good works to go along with his faith then that faith is a dead faith because it does not result in good works. But earlier in the same epistle james tells us exactly how a person is born of God:


"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

Peter says the same thing:


"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

You have been given many chances to prove that the gospel demands that in order to be saved one must obey but so far you have come up empty!

Of course you are not born again or else you would actually believe what Peter wrote there!


Do you really think that Paul is rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus too much?

We were discussing how a person receives the Holy Spirit and you said that it is received by obedience. I say that it is by faith and that is exactly what Paul says:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Show us that you really believe what is written in the Bible and tell us how the Spirit is received.

By obedience or by faith?

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 08:38 AM
Someone is born again by believing in the new covenant promise of righteousness by faith

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:28,29

Those like Jerry are excluded by their own admission.

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 08:45 AM
Someone is born again by believing in the new covenant promise of righteousness by faith

Is there nothing in the Scriptures which you will actually believe?

A person is born again by the gospel and not by believing in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah!


"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

Paul speaks of the gospel at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and he says nothing about the new Covenant promised to Israel.

If you really think that you are born again by believing the New Covenant mentioned at Jeremiah 31:31 then you are not born again and remain in your sins!

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 08:48 AM
Is there nothing in the Scriptures which you will actually believe?

A person is born again by the gospel and not by believing in the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah!

The new covenant promise to the spiritual houses of Israel and Judah. Believing Jews likely falling into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles falling into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

Hosea chap. 1 and 2 referencing the fallen house of Israel that would be raised up in faith at a future time.

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 08:55 AM
The new covenant promise to the spiritual houses of Israel and Judah. Believing Jews likely falling into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles falling into the house of Israel.

Let us look at this passage where we see the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

The "fathers" of the ones who will receive the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the ones who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that means that the offspring of those fathers will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So in the future all of the house of Israel and all of the house of Judah which will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they will all, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved.

You are so confused that you think that the house of Israel is referring to Gentiles despite the fact that the fathers of those of the house of Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Your spiritual I.Q. is practically ZERO!

Right Divider
November 18th, 2017, 08:58 AM
The new covenant promise to the spiritual houses of Israel and Judah. Believing Jews likely falling into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles falling into the house of Israel.

Ah... changing the Bible meet your need for it to say what it does not say.

The house of Israel is TEN TRIBES. It has nothing to do with Gentiles.


As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:25,26
Romans 9-11 is about Israel and their restoration in the future.

Rom 11:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)

(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (11:12) Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

So simple and yet so many, like you, don't believe it.

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 08:59 AM
Let us look at this passage where we see the New Covenant promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

The "fathers" of the ones who will receive the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the ones who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that means that the offspring of those fathers will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So in the future all of the house of Israel and all of the house of Judah which will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they will all, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved.

You are so confused that you think that the house of Israel is referring to Gentiles despite the fact that the fathers of those of the house of Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Your spiritual I.Q. is practically ZERO!

Believing Jews fall into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles fall into the house of Israel. Judah was historically higher than the house of Israel indicating that converted Jews are higher than converted Gentiles. The church was started by ethnic and converted Jews.

Right Divider
November 18th, 2017, 09:00 AM
Believing Jews fall into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles fall into the house of Israel. Judah was historically higher than the house of Israel indicating that converted Jews are higher than converted Gentiles. The church was started by ethnic and converted Jews.
Where did you get this baloney?

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 09:02 AM
Where did you get this baloney?

From the dispy truck that got T-boned by a semi.

Right Divider
November 18th, 2017, 09:03 AM
From the dispy truck that got T-boned by a semi.
So you just invented it yourself.

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 09:05 AM
So you just invented it yourself.

I just quoted Paul who quoted Hosea didn't I. Can't you read?

Right Divider
November 18th, 2017, 09:09 AM
I just quoted Paul who quoted Hosea didn't I. Can't you read?
Talking about Israel, yes. Nothing about Gentiles "becoming the 10 tribes".

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 09:14 AM
Talking about Israel, yes. Nothing about Gentiles "becoming the 10 tribes".

Here's the quote again: Paul unmistakably interposes the Gentiles into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

Hosea chap. 1 and 2 referencing the fallen house of Israel that would be raised up in faith at a future time.

Right Divider
November 18th, 2017, 09:23 AM
Here's the quote again: Paul unmistakably interposes the Gentiles into the house of Israel.

Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

Hosea chap. 1 and 2 referencing the fallen house of Israel that would be raised up in faith at a future time.
Paul does, sometimes, use scripture to describe a spiritual meaning that is different than the original context. This does NOT mean that Gentiles "become the 10 tribes" but simply that they will be included as "children of the living God".

Here is another example of the same principle:

Rom 8:35-37 (AKJV/PCE)

(8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? (8:36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. (8:37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Is Paul calling all believers sheep? NAY!

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 09:43 AM
Believing Jews fall into the house of Judah and believing Gentiles fall into the house of Israel.

You just ignored the fact that at Jeremiah 31:31-34 the fathers of those who will belong to the house of Israel in the future are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Since their fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that means that they will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob!

Why do you refuse to address these facts? Do you just not believe what is written in the OT or what?

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 10:29 AM
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Romans 9:24-26

You both reject Paul like all Dispensational flesh worshippers. The house of Israel are said to cease and be no more by Hosea:

And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hosea 1:4-6

In the 1st century the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin) was the only ethnic house remaining. The house of Israel was scattered among the nations and intermingled with the Gentiles like the Samaritans. The Jews didn't consider the Samaritans to be the tribes of Israel and despised them. Many of the Samaritans who believed on Christ were of the lost tribes of Israel who were not God's people but now are called God's people.

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 10:56 AM
E The house of Israel are said to cease and be no more by Hosea:

The Scriptures reveal that both houses will be restored in the future:


"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ez.37:21-22).

As I have already shown, the fathers of those who will receive the promise of the New Covenant are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so those who will receive that promises will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But you obviously refuse to believe what is written at Jeremiah 31:31-34 because you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures themselves say. It is those who "believe God" who are saved (Ro.4:3) and believing what some men say about the Scriptures saves no one!

Epoisses
November 18th, 2017, 10:59 AM
The Scriptures reveal that both houses will be restored in the future:


"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" (Ez.37:21-22).

As I have already shown, the fathers of those who will receive the promise of the New Covenant are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob so those who will receive that promises will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

But you obviously refuse to believe what is written at Jeremiah 31:31-34 because you put more faith in what some men say about the Scriptures than you do in what the Scriptures themselves say. It is those who "believe God" who are saved (Ro.4:3) and believing what some men say about the Scriptures saves no one!

The spiritual houses will be restored. The ethnic house of Israel ceased 700 years before Christ. All the disciples including Paul were from the house of Judah and two sets of disciples were brothers so it is physically impossible that all 12 tribes were represented. Brothers would have come from the same tribe.

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 11:15 AM
The spiritual houses will be restored. The ethnic house of Israel ceased 700 years before Christ.

I will repeat what I said earlier so that everyone reading this thread can see that you refuse to believe what is said in these verses:


"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jer.31:31-34).

The "fathers" of the ones who will receive the New Covenant were the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the ones who broke the covenant. And since the fathers are the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob then that means that the offspring of those fathers will also be the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

So in the future all of the house of Israel and all of the house of Judah which will be made up of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they will all, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, will have their sins forgiven and be saved.

You have not even attempted to address these facts. All I see from you is a heart of unbelief. Instead of believing what is revealed in this passage you cling to the fables invented by some people.

God's Truth
November 18th, 2017, 12:45 PM
As far as other men can see, if a Christian does not have good works to go along with his faith then that faith is a dead faith because it does not result in good works. But earlier in the same epistle james tells us exactly how a person is born of God:


"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).

That scripture proves what I say and disproves you. That scripture say that the truth gives us rebirth. But you are not preaching truth that faith alone is dead.




Peter says the same thing:


"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).

You have been given many chances to prove that the gospel demands that in order to be saved one must obey but so far you have come up empty!
You are dishonest. I gave you many scriptures saying we have to obey, that we have to repent of our sins.



Of course you are not born again or else you would actually believe what Peter wrote there!

You have verified yourself as not saved.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

There is only one way to get out of the condemnation that you are in, and you would have to do what Jesus the Way says.

You will have to change your heart and humble yourself like a little child. Can you do that?

You will have to be fearful of God, and tell Him of the sins you did and then repent of those sins.

You will have to also have a forgiving heart yourself, or you will not be saved and you will be as a stiff man whose bones are wasting away.

Psalm 32:2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit! 3When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away Through my groaning all day long.

You have a lot to repent of, for you go against His Truth.





We were discussing how a person receives the Holy Spirit and you said that it is received by obedience. I say that it is by faith and that is exactly what Paul says:

Paul doesn't go against Jesus.

The Lord rebukes you.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and take up residence with him.




"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Show us that you really believe what is written in the Bible and tell us how the Spirit is received.

By obedience or by faith?

Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works.

I told you that before but you ignore it because your heart is like stone and your bones are stiff and you don’t love God more than your false doctrines that you hold onto.

Jerry Shugart
November 18th, 2017, 04:37 PM
You are dishonest. I gave you many scriptures saying we have to obey, that we have to repent of our sins.

You are dishonest because that it not what I said. I said that we are saved by believing the gospel and you have been given many opportunities to prove that the gospel declares that we must obey! And you have not given even one instance where the gospel says that we must obey!

Instead of confessing the truth that the gospel says nothing about obeying you pervert what I actually said in a desperate attempt to change the subject!


Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works.

Once again you are being dishonest. I say that a person receives the Spirit through faith and you say that it comes to those who obey. Then I quoted these words of Paul to prove what I said is true:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Instead of actually answering Paul's words there you dishonestly try to change the subject by saying that "Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works."

Show us that you can actualkly be honest and answer Paul's question here:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

If you refuse to answer my discussion with you is over because you will prove once again that you do not have an honest bone in your body!

God's Truth
November 19th, 2017, 12:38 AM
You are dishonest because that it not what I said. I said that we are saved by believing the gospel and you have been given many opportunities to prove that the gospel declares that we must obey! And you have not given even one instance where the gospel says that we must obey!

Instead of confessing the truth that the gospel says nothing about obeying you pervert what I actually said in a desperate attempt to change the subject!



Once again you are being dishonest. I say that a person receives the Spirit through faith and you say that it comes to those who obey. Then I quoted these words of Paul to prove what I said is true:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

Instead of actually answering Paul's words there you dishonestly try to change the subject by saying that "Paul was rebuking the Galatians for doing the ceremonial works."

Show us that you can actualkly be honest and answer Paul's question here:


"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Gal.3:2).

If you refuse to answer my discussion with you is over because you will prove once again that you do not have an honest bone in your body!

You do not address the scriptures and explanations I give because it disproves your ridiculous beliefs.

Tell me why you would rather choose false doctrines than God's Truth?

You are dishonest you know I gave you many scriptures and took the time to be careful with you.

Tell me what the Galatians did for Paul to rebuke them? Were they trying to obey Jesus too much, or were they rebuked for trying to get cleaned/justified by doing the ceremonial works? Let's start there.

Be brave and be ready to give up your nothing but falseness doctrines.

God does not like cowards.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

God's Truth
November 19th, 2017, 12:42 AM
Galatians 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.…


That is the Galatians observing the ceremonial days.


Galatians 5:2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.


That is about the Galatians being talked into getting circumcised, which is a ceremonial/purification work.

Show one scripture where Paul rebukes the Galatians for obeying.