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Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 08:14 AM
I have come to the conclusion that all that is needed for salvation is repentance from wickedness - if a person is wicked. Most are not.

Faith in Jesus was added to the equation to bring people to repentance by demonstrating God's love and providing a graphic visual to the effect that if one repents he will be forgiven, and then to provide power to overcome sin, whether those sins are wickedness which leads to damnation or other sins that so easily beset us.

Salvation in the scriptures is "restoration to wholeness" and a person that is whole (not wicked) will enter eternal life. All sin causes spiritual death in the hear and now to some degree and so all sin causes lack of wholeness to some degree so all people need salvation to some degree, if we understand what the Greek word sozo means.

We don't "earn" salvation by doing good works, but a good person does not need to receive eternal life because he already has it.

This is the verse that has rocked my Evangelical boat:

Lk. 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 09:35 AM
You are an unregenerate, unrepentant heretic.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 09:55 AM
You are an unregenerate, unrepentant heretic.

I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you! I wear the Heretic badge with honor. Unrepentant? Yes, because I am not wicked so don't need to repent of my wickedness. That's a good thing. Unregenerate? Well, according to John everyone who does what is right is born again so you missed that one. But thanks for playing. Two out of three ain't bad.

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 10:34 AM
I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you! I wear the Heretic badge with honor. Unrepentant? Yes, because I am not wicked so don't need to repent of my wickedness. That's a good thing. Unregenerate? Well, according to John everyone who does what is right is born again so you missed that one. But thanks for playing. Two out of three ain't bad.

You have a superstition and that is all.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:47 AM
You have a superstition and that is all.

"Jesus saves" is superstition?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 11:49 AM
"Jesus saves" is superstition?

He doesn't save everyone. There are false brethren, false teachers and false witnesses. Based on what you have written I would not call you brother, because the truth is not in you.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:58 AM
He doesn't save everyone. There are false brethren, false teachers and false witnesses. Based on what you have written I would not call you brother, because the truth is not in you.

No skin off my back. What do you think of the answer Jesus gave regarding how to inherit eternal life? Does that fit into your religious dogma?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 12:09 PM
No skin off my back. What do you think of the answer Jesus gave regarding how to inherit eternal life? Does that fit into your religious indoctrination?

I've never received any indoctrination. I was atheist until July 17th 1999 at 10:30am at which point in time I was converted. I didn't ask nor want to be saved but I was and I am.

jamie
August 28th, 2017, 12:27 PM
We don't "earn" salvation by doing good works, but a good person does not need to receive eternal life because he already has it.


A good person? Are you kidding?

Jesus said just the opposite.

"Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'

So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.'" (Luke 18:18-19)

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 01:30 PM
A good person? Are you kidding?

Jesus said just the opposite.

"Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'

So Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.'" (Luke 18:18-19)

How is this supposed to refute what Jesus said in Lk. 10:25? Obviously, there is "good", as in "as good as God", and there's "good," as in "Good enough for God." What kinda "good" are we talking about here?

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 01:31 PM
I've never received any indoctrination. I was atheist until July 17th 1999 at 10:30am at which point in time I was converted. I didn't ask nor want to be saved but I was and I am.

You didn't answer my question. Are you just trolling?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 01:59 PM
You didn't answer my question. Are you just trolling?

I only answer sincere questions from those that are hungry for truth. You don't have that hunger.

oatmeal
August 28th, 2017, 02:23 PM
I have come to the conclusion that all that is needed for salvation is repentance from wickedness - if a person is wicked. Most are not.

Faith in Jesus was added to the equation to bring people to repentance by demonstrating God's love and providing a graphic visual to the effect that if one repents he will be forgiven, and then to provide power to overcome sin, whether those sins are wickedness which leads to damnation or other sins that so easily beset us.

Salvation in the scriptures is "restoration to wholeness" and a person that is whole (not wicked) will enter eternal life. All sin causes spiritual death in the hear and now to some degree and so all sin causes lack of wholeness to some degree so all people need salvation to some degree, if we understand what the Greek word sozo means.

We don't "earn" salvation by doing good works, but a good person does not need to receive eternal life because he already has it.

This is the verse that has rocked my Evangelical boat:

Lk. 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

Those verses were the answer in the Gospel times, but with the accomplished works of Jesus Christ, the new and better standard is Romans 10:9-10

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 03:23 PM
I only answer sincere questions from those that are hungry for truth. You don't have that hunger.

Of course. Does anyone who comes to different conclusions than you?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 03:27 PM
Of course. Does anyone who comes to different conclusions than you?

Truth is absolute and is not open nor subject to conclusions. Scripture can only mean what it meant to those that first heard it.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 03:36 PM
Those verses were the answer in the Gospel times, but with the accomplished works of Jesus Christ, the new and better standard is Romans 10:9-10

It's not a different standard, it's a new door into grace so that people can get help with overcoming their sin. The standard of good conduct is still preached in the rest of the New Testament.

Being judged by our conduct and being eternally saved by not being wicked was not altered at the cross but continued to be affirmed in the New Testament as can be seen by:

Peter, who told someone he just needed to repent and made no mention of Christ: "You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray to God, if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven." (Acts 8:21-22)

Peter also said, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.” (Acts 10:34-35)

James said works are necessary because faith by itself is useless: “Faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.” (2:17)

John records what he saw in a vision: “I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.” (Rev. 20:12)

John also said, “The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.” (1 Jn. 1:17)

And then, as if to clarify what John wrote about what Jesus said regarding being born again in the third chapter of John, he says, “Everyone who does what is right has been born of him (God). (1 Jn. 2:29)

Paul informs us the wrath of God is brought on by poor conduct, not lack of faith: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Rom. 1:18)

Paul taught you must prove your repentance by your deeds, not prove your faith by your works: "To the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20)

Paul, writing to Christians, explains how Christians will receive eternal life: “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...” (Rom. 2:6-7)

Paul taught us that the heathen who never performed the outward acts of the Jewish Law such as circumcision or keeping the Sabbath would be counted as if they had if they fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law: “If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?” (Rom. 2:26)

Then Paul adds this doosey: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Php. 2:12) What? What’s there to work out and be afraid of when you have faith? Did Paul not get the memo that there is nothing to work out for those who have faith?

The writer of Hebrews said their salvation depends on their work and labor of love, not their faith: “But that which bears thorns and briers (evil works) is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which you have shewn toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.” (Heb. 6:8-10)

And finally, the words of Jesus. Have you seen the tract called The Romans Road to Salvation? Here’s the Matthew Road to Salvation:

Many will say to me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?” And then will I profess unto them, “I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” (Mt. 7:22-23)

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (**Mt. *12:35-37)‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (Mt. 13:37-43)

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. (Mt. 16:27)

Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.” They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?” He will reply, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.” Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Mt. 25:41-46)

That’s five times the writer of Matthew quotes Jesus in a way that does damage to the doctrine of salvation by grace. It’s almost as if someone purposefully put all this at the beginning of our New Testaments so we wouldn’t miss the fact God did not overturn his Old Covenant standard of salvation by not doing evil.

And yet, Evangelicals miss that fact.

Not to be outdone by Matthew, the apostle John also quotes Jesus saying the same things:

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29)

Look, I (Jesus) am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. (Rev. 22:12)

When Jesus comes back (or came back if you're a Preterist) he's going to be looking for orthopraxy (right living), not orthodoxy (right belief). No one will be judged by what he believes. Everyone will be judged by what he has done. Those who do wicked deeds need to turn from those deeds before it’s too late. It’s as simple as that.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 03:38 PM
Truth is absolute and is not open nor subject to conclusions. Scripture can only mean what it meant to those that first heard it.

So why do you believe stuff that wasn't invented until hundreds of years later?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 03:49 PM
So why do you believe stuff that wasn't invented until hundreds of years later?

I only trust in the revealed will that is found in scripture. I was converted before I read the Bible. I only began to read the scriptures to discover what had happened to me. Once I began to read I couldn't stop and the reading turned to studying and the studying led to correct translation by exegeses.

Patrick Cronin
August 28th, 2017, 04:00 PM
Sin (doing bad things) brought death into the world and created the need for the Saviour. The perfectly just consequence of sin is permanent separation from God (hell). Through God's mercy, Jesus redeemed us by His life, death and Resurrection and so opened for us the possibility of forgiveness and eternal life. Jesus did not remove the need for us to reject our sinfulness, but insisted that we must repent ("unless you repent you will all perish as they did...")(Luke 13:3). Therefore a person receives the salvation won by Jesus by avoiding sin and living a good life. Without choosing to do good, we will not be able to receive the salvation won by Jesus on the Cross. (See Colossians 1:9-11. Colossians 3:5-10. 1 John3:1-10.1 Cor. 5:7-8. 2 Peter 1:10-11. Ephesians 1:4.Galatians 6:9-10. Titus 1:16. 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8. Patrick Cronin.

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 04:08 PM
Sin (doing bad things) brought death into the world and created the need for the Saviour. The perfectly just consequence of sin is permanent separation from God (hell). Through God's mercy, Jesus redeemed us by His life, death and Resurrection and so opened for us the possibility of forgiveness and eternal life. Jesus did not remove the need for us to reject our sinfulness, but insisted that we must repent ("unless you repent you will all perish as they did...")(Luke 13:3). Therefore a person receives the salvation won by Jesus by avoiding sin and living a good life. Without choosing to do good, we will not be able to receive the salvation won by Jesus on the Cross. (See Colossians 1:9-11. Colossians 3:5-10. 1 John3:1-10.1 Cor. 5:7-8. 2 Peter 1:10-11. Ephesians 1:4.Galatians 6:9-10. Titus 1:16. 1 Thessalonians 4:1-8. Patrick Cronin.

The Messiah did not open the possibility for forgiveness. He came into the world to save sinners and He saves everyone that He paid the price for. "Salvation belongs to Yah Veh" and is not reliant upon anything man thinks, says or does.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 04:11 PM
The perfectly just consequence of sin is permanent separation from God (hell).
I'm glad God isn't "just". At least according to your working definition. If all of our sins, even the most benign, condemns us all then you've just provided the best argument I can think of for God to simply acquit the whole human race. A just God would do that because a just God would never condemn mankind for what man has no ability to avoid. That would be like me telling my 6 year old kids that they must reach my height of six feet before their 7th birthday or I will beat their bottoms until they are black and blue. Nobody would think a father like that is just but you seem to think our Father in heaven is just for sending people to hell for something they could not avoid. You are a sick puppy if you believe this.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 04:15 PM
I only trust in the revealed will that is found in scripture. I was converted before I read the Bible. I only began to read the scriptures to discover what had happened to me. Once I began to read I couldn't stop and the reading turned to studying and the studying led to correct translation by exegeses.

So have you been influenced by others or has it been just you and your bible since 1999?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 04:26 PM
So have you been influenced by others or has it been just you and your bible since 1999?

I have been influenced by the Spirit of Truth and He alone has led me into all the truth I need.

I have studied systematic theology which inevitably gives many options where denominational doctrines are concerned. The Bible is the revealed will of the Almighty and what you have posted is not in line with scriptural doctrine.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 04:35 PM
I have been influenced by the Spirit of Truth and He alone has led me into all the truth I need.

I have studied systematic theology which inevitably gives many options where denominational doctrines are concerned. The Bible is the revealed will of the Almighty and what you have posted is not in line with scriptural doctrine.

You know how many people have said exactly the same thing and you all contradict each other? Is there any reason for me to believe you're somehow special and all the other crackpots just don't have what you have?

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 04:40 PM
You know how many people have said exactly the same thing and you all contradict each other? Is there any reason for me to believe you're somehow special and all the other crackpots just don't have what you have?

I don't particularly care what you think or believe.In fact I would strongly advise you to stop messing with religion and get on with whatever you find to do. If the Almighty wants you then He will come for you. If He does then there will be no mistaking it.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 05:34 PM
I don't particularly care what you think or believe.In fact I would strongly advise you to stop messing with religion and get on with whatever you find to do. If the Almighty wants you then He will come for you. If He does then there will be no mistaking it.

So no reason for me to believe you are not just another crackpot. Fair enough. I hope that what you believe to be the indisputable truth leads you into righteous living, the joy of our salvation, and blessing to others.

God bless you Brother.

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 05:37 PM
So no reason for me to believe you are not just another crackpot. Fair enough. I hope that what you believe to be the indisputable truth leads you into righteous living, the joy of our salvation, and blessing to others.

God bless you Brother.

I'm not your brother.

jamie
August 28th, 2017, 06:18 PM
How is this supposed to refute what Jesus said in Lk. 10:25?


"And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, 'Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?'" (Luke 10:25)

It was a legal question, the man was a lawyer.

Jesus asked him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

The man answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself." (Luke 10:27)

This is what's written in the law in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

Had the lawyer always complied with the law?

Evidently not because the man asked, "And who is my neighbor?" (Luke 10:29)

He asked this in an attempt to justify himself.

A Samaritan came upon a wounded man and showed him mercy.

Jesus told the lawyer, "Go and do likewise." (Luke 10:37)

Epoisses
August 28th, 2017, 07:05 PM
It's not a different standard, it's a new door into grace so that people can get help with overcoming their sin. The standard of good conduct is still preached in the rest of the New Testament.

Being judged by our conduct and being eternally saved by not being wicked was not altered at the cross but continued to be affirmed in the New Testament as can be seen by:

Peter, who told someone he just needed to repent and made no mention of Christ: "You have neither part nor lot in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray to God, if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven." (Acts 8:21-22)

Peter also said, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.” (Acts 10:34-35)

James said works are necessary because faith by itself is useless: “Faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.” (2:17)

John records what he saw in a vision: “I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.” (Rev. 20:12)

John also said, “The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.” (1 Jn. 1:17)

And then, as if to clarify what John wrote about what Jesus said regarding being born again in the third chapter of John, he says, “Everyone who does what is right has been born of him (God). (1 Jn. 2:29)

Paul informs us the wrath of God is brought on by poor conduct, not lack of faith: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Rom. 1:18)

Paul taught you must prove your repentance by your deeds, not prove your faith by your works: "To the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds." (Acts 26:20)

Paul, writing to Christians, explains how Christians will receive eternal life: “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...” (Rom. 2:6-7)

Paul taught us that the heathen who never performed the outward acts of the Jewish Law such as circumcision or keeping the Sabbath would be counted as if they had if they fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law: “If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?” (Rom. 2:26)

Then Paul adds this doosey: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Php. 2:12) What? What’s there to work out and be afraid of when you have faith? Did Paul not get the memo that there is nothing to work out for those who have faith?

The writer of Hebrews said their salvation depends on their work and labor of love, not their faith: “But that which bears thorns and briers (evil works) is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which you have shewn toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.” (Heb. 6:8-10)

And finally, the words of Jesus. Have you seen the tract called The Romans Road to Salvation? Here’s the Matthew Road to Salvation:

Many will say to me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And in your name have cast out devils? And in your name done many wonderful works?” And then will I profess unto them, “I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” (Mt. 7:22-23)

The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned. (**Mt. *12:35-37)‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬

He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. (Mt. 13:37-43)

For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. (Mt. 16:27)

Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.” They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?” He will reply, “I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.” Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (Mt. 25:41-46)

That’s five times the writer of Matthew quotes Jesus in a way that does damage to the doctrine of salvation by grace. It’s almost as if someone purposefully put all this at the beginning of our New Testaments so we wouldn’t miss the fact God did not overturn his Old Covenant standard of salvation by not doing evil.

And yet, Evangelicals miss that fact.

Not to be outdone by Matthew, the apostle John also quotes Jesus saying the same things:

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. (Jn. 5:28-29)

Look, I (Jesus) am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. (Rev. 22:12)

When Jesus comes back (or came back if you're a Preterist) he's going to be looking for orthopraxy (right living), not orthodoxy (right belief). No one will be judged by what he believes. Everyone will be judged by what he has done. Those who do wicked deeds need to turn from those deeds before it’s too late. It’s as simple as that.

Truster and Calvinist's in general have no answer for these types of scripture verses where works of obedience are commanded upon believers. Works of true obedience are faith based while works of disobedience are law or flesh based.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 07:25 PM
I'm not your brother.

You must be a worker of iniquity then.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 07:29 PM
Truster and Calvinist's in general have no answer for these types of scripture verses where works of obedience are commanded upon believers. Works of true obedience are faith based while works of disobedience are law or flesh based.

Yeah I can see that hence his deflection. Not brave enough to take on the scriptures mano a mano. Typical Calvinist.

Nick M
August 28th, 2017, 08:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 08:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw

Now that's what I'm talkin' about. :thumb:

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 09:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrLzYw6ULYw

So what are you going to do with the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the Children of God?" And, what are you going to do with the scripture in the OP? Ignore it? And the several scriptures in post #14? You just going to sweep them all away with the brush of your hand?

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 09:01 PM
Now that's what I'm talkin' about. :thumb:

I used to preach that false Gospel. Not any more.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 09:09 PM
How is this supposed to refute what Jesus said in Lk. 10:25? Obviously, there is "good", as in "as good as God", and there's "good," as in "Good enough for God." What kinda "good" are we talking about here?

The man asked what he could do to inherit eternal life, right?


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Eternal life cannot be inherited or earned. It is a Gift of God.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 09:10 PM
I used to preach that false Gospel. Not any more.

Then you went off the track. :sigh:

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 09:14 PM
So what are you going to do with the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the Children of God?" And, what are you going to do with the scripture in the OP? Ignore it? And the several scriptures in post #14? You just going to sweep them all away with the brush of your hand?

The summary of the sermon ends thus:


Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

KingdomRose
August 28th, 2017, 09:15 PM
Response to the OP, post #1: I agree that people can't earn their own salvation without Christ. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. We accept Christ and then we act in accordance with his teachings. We must do BOTH.

KingdomRose
August 28th, 2017, 09:25 PM
The man asked what he could do to inherit eternal life, right?


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Eternal life cannot be inherited or earned. It is a Gift of God.

Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

steko
August 28th, 2017, 09:26 PM
So what are you going to do with the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the Children of God?" And, what are you going to do with the scripture in the OP? Ignore it? And the several scriptures in post #14? You just going to sweep them all away with the brush of your hand?

What can you possibly do with the Sermon on the Mount?
At that time you would have been without Christ, being an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world!

Eph 2:12

If you could get in a time machine and go to the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord Jesus wouldn't even talk to you and the Jewish multitude would have called you 'uncircumcised' and barred you from the site.
And you think He was talking to you. :nono:

2Ti 2:15* Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 09:47 PM
It's not a different standard, it's a new door into grace so that people can get help with overcoming their sin. The standard of good conduct is still preached in the rest of the New Testament.

Being judged by our conduct and being eternally saved by not being wicked was not altered at the cross but continued to be affirmed in the New Testament as can be seen by....


Paul informs us the wrath of God is brought on by poor conduct, not lack of faith: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness.” (Rom. 1:18)


Paul, writing to Christians, explains how Christians will receive eternal life: “For [God] will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...” (Rom. 2:6-7)

Paul taught us that the heathen who never performed the outward acts of the Jewish Law such as circumcision or keeping the Sabbath would be counted as if they had if they fulfilled the righteous requirements of the Law: “If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?” (Rom. 2:26)

It's called the Roman Road for a reason. Paul speaks or the entire history of man, and you pick out what he writes concerning how God dealt with people before the cross...the time of ignorance at which God winked. Acts 17:30

Read on in Romans and you'll see how much you've missed about the righteousness of faith, of those who go about trying to establish their own righteousness.


Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Read what Paul teaches about the law...what law keeping can never do and was never meant to do.


Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.


Then Paul adds this doosey: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Php. 2:12) What? What’s there to work out and be afraid of when you have faith? Did Paul not get the memo that there is nothing to work out for those who have faith?

It's only a doozey if you change the verse to read "work FOR you own salvation". You are reading your own doctrine into that verse.

Clearly, you are missing the fact that the CROSS makes all the difference.....Law vs. Grace


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 09:58 PM
Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

You preach what was possible BEFORE THE CROSS. As opposed to being justified by faith?

I prefer the peace and full assurance of being saved by Grace.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

meshak
August 28th, 2017, 10:15 PM
Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

Those verses are disregarded by most churches.

KingdomRose
August 28th, 2017, 10:22 PM
Those verses are disregarded by most churches.

Yes they are, and, unfortunately, by the previous posters here on this thread.

steko
August 28th, 2017, 10:28 PM
Hi, Meshak!

meshak
August 28th, 2017, 10:30 PM
hello steko.

meshak
August 28th, 2017, 10:32 PM
Yes they are, and, unfortunately, by the previous posters here on this thread.

yes.

KingdomRose
August 28th, 2017, 10:59 PM
It's nice to see you again, Meshak. I hope you are getting on well.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:10 PM
The man asked what he could do to inherit eternal life, right?


Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Eternal life cannot be inherited or earned. It is a Gift of God.

Yes, sin does earn us spiritual death. No doubt about that. And yes, eternal life can certainly be gotten through Jesus Christ if his life, teaching, death, and resurrection, which are all gifts to mankind, is the means by which one gains faith enough to repent of wickedness - if one needs to repent of wickedness. But none of that negates what Jesus said to the lawyer which was "Love God and man and you shall live." That's all HE needed to do, because that's all that ANYBODY needs to do.

Truster
August 28th, 2017, 11:10 PM
You must be a worker of iniquity then.

Being a spiritual brother by new birth and actually working at iniquity are completely different. Your lack of spiritual understanding further confirms the fact...you are no brother of mine.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:14 PM
The summary of the sermon ends thus:


Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And this somehow negates the fact that people are called to be peacemakers and if they respond they will be considered children of God. Hmmm, not that I can tell. Why not just believe what Jesus said?

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:20 PM
Yes....and then you honor Christ's teachings and follow his example, DOING what he said to do.


"Let your light shine before men, that they may see your fine works and give glory to your Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.5:16)

"Not everyone saying to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens." (Matt.7:21)

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

Yes, of course, Christians must remain good or be disqualified, but that says nothing about non-Christians who are not wicked and thus are not in need of repenting, like the Gentiles Paul writes about in Rom. 2:26.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:22 PM
Being a spiritual brother by new birth and actually working at iniquity are completely different. Your lack of spiritual understanding further confirms the fact...you are no brother of mine.

Well I know and you said you're not a brother, as in, you're not a spiritual brother by new birth so that left only one option that I could think of.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 11:24 PM
Yes, sin does earn us spiritual death. No doubt about that. And yes, eternal life can certainly be gotten through Jesus Christ if his life, teaching, death, and resurrection, which are all gifts to mankind, is the means by which one gains faith enough to repent of wickedness - if one needs to repent of wickedness. But none of that negates what Jesus said to the lawyer which was "Love God and man and you shall live." That's all HE needed to do, because that's all that ANYBODY needs to do.

Repenting of wickedness doesn't give anyone life. Jesus knew the man was not able to love God and his neighbor without the love of God being shed abroad on his heart by the Holy Spirit. The man asked what he could do, and the question should have caused the man to recognize his own inability to love others as he loved himself.

It's exactly like God asking Adam how he knew he was naked. It was a rhetorical question. He wanted Adam to admit what he had done. This man wanted to know what HE could do to merit God's GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, and NO MAN is able to do so. Are you so self-righteous that you think you could love all men as much as your love yourself? If that is your claim, you are lying to yourself.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:32 PM
What can you possibly do with the Sermon on the Mount?
At that time you would have been without Christ, being an alien from the commonwealth of Israel, and a stranger from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world!

Eph 2:12

If you could get in a time machine and go to the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord Jesus wouldn't even talk to you and the Jewish multitude would have called you 'uncircumcised' and barred you from the site.
And you think He was talking to you. :nono:

2Ti 2:15* Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.*

His teaching sounds rather universal to me, local circumstances notwithstanding. Reminds me of the uncircumcised Roman Centurion about which Peter said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34) I wouldn't be surprised if Cornelius had heard someone recite the Sermon on the Mount and decided to live it. They said of him, "And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee." But you want to exclude Cornelius from being accepted by God it sounds to me.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:36 PM
Response to the OP, post #1: I agree that people can't earn their own salvation without Christ. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. We accept Christ and then we act in accordance with his teachings. We must do BOTH.

Of course WE must do both. And those with no knowledge of Christ or who aren't convinced of some 2000 year old story passed on by morons (possibly) who can't provide any real good reason to believe the story, simply need to repent of their wickedness if they are wicked. That's it. Nothing else required. No more hoops to jump through to get God's favor.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 11:44 PM
And this somehow negates the fact that people are called to be peacemakers and if they respond they will be considered children of God. Hmmm, not that I can tell. Why not just believe what Jesus said?

Being a peacemaker won't save you, nor will being poor in spirit. Sounds to me like Jesus is speaking of REWARDS not salvation (which is a Gift).


Matt. 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Now look a little farther down the page.

Your righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and pharisees (who kept the letter of the law).


Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus speaks of judging every thought of man's heart. Look at a woman with lust and you've committed adultery. Call a man a fool and you're guilty of killing him...anger.


Matt. 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt. 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Too many people assume they can meet the standards Jesus has set forth, but the standard is PERFECT. There is no coming short that will earn a man eternal life. There's a reason for that....


Eph. 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:44 PM
It's called the Roman Road for a reason. Paul speaks or the entire history of man, and you pick out what he writes concerning how God dealt with people before the cross...the time of ignorance at which God winked. Acts 17:30

Read on in Romans and you'll see how much you've missed about the righteousness of faith, of those who go about trying to establish their own righteousness.


Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Read what Paul teaches about the law...what law keeping can never do and was never meant to do.


Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.



It's only a doozey if you change the verse to read "work FOR you own salvation". You are reading your own doctrine into that verse.

Clearly, you are missing the fact that the CROSS makes all the difference.....Law vs. Grace


Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Christ is the end of the particularly Jewish laws such as circumcision, tithing, Sabbath, etc., but not the Law of Jesus, which is, "Love God and love man. Do this and live." I don't think you've quite understood the issue with self-righteousness. It's not good people thinking they are good enough to be acceptable to God, it's bad people who think they get a pass on their wickedness because they got circumcised and follow the other uniquely Jewish laws and had a pedigree stamped "Child of Abraham." Did you notice how often Jesus called these lawkeepers wicked? Did you notice how Paul said he was blameless according to the Law yet he also admitted to being a Jewish terrorist? Does this enter into your theology at all?

steko
August 28th, 2017, 11:49 PM
His teaching sounds rather universal to me, local circumstances notwithstanding. Reminds me of the uncircumcised Roman Centurion about which Peter said, "Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons. But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34) I wouldn't be surprised if Cornelius had heard someone recite the Sermon on the Mount and decided to live it. They said of him, "And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee." But you want to exclude Cornelius from being accepted by God it sounds to me.

Rom 15:8* Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:*

Mat 15:24* But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*

Krsto
August 28th, 2017, 11:53 PM
Repenting of wickedness doesn't give anyone life. Jesus knew the man was not able to love God and his neighbor without the love of God being shed abroad on his heart by the Holy Spirit. The man asked what he could do, and the question should have caused the man to recognize his own inability to love others as he loved himself.

It's exactly like God asking Adam how he knew he was naked. It was a rhetorical question. He wanted Adam to admit what he had done. This man wanted to know what HE could do to merit God's GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE, and NO MAN is able to do so. Are you so self-righteous that you think you could love all men as much as your love yourself? If that is your claim, you are lying to yourself.

You do a fair amount of speculation regarding what Jesus knew about the lawyer. Funny thing, the lawyer didn't have an issue with loving his neighbor, he just had an issue with who gets included in "neighbor". But tell me one thing, did repentance give life before Christ as seen in the scriptures below, and if so, why not after Christ? Did God somehow make it harder to enter the kingdom by sending his Son?

The King [of Nineveh] said, “Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish." When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (Jonah 3:8-4:2)

Another Old Testament prophet, Ezekiel, wrote, “Say unto them, ‘As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live,’” (33:11) and, "If a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life."

But hey, you pick out the one scripture in a long list you think you can argue about and sweep the rest aside. Well played.

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 11:54 PM
Yes, of course, Christians must remain good or be disqualified, but that says nothing about non-Christians who are not wicked and thus are not in need of repenting, like the Gentiles Paul writes about in Rom. 2:26.

Even Gentiles have the law written in their conscience...they know when they do wrong (and fall short of the glory of God).


Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

glorydaz
August 28th, 2017, 11:58 PM
You do a fair amount of speculation regarding what Jesus knew about the lawyer. Funny thing, the lawyer didn't have an issue with loving his neighbor, he just had an issue with who gets included in "neighbor". But tell me one thing, did repentance give life before Christ as seen in the scriptures below, and if so, why not after Christ? Did God somehow make it harder to enter the kingdom by sending his Son?

The King [of Nineveh] said, “Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish." When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened. But Jonah was greatly displeased and became angry. He prayed to the LORD, "O LORD, is this not what I said when I was still at home? That is why I was so quick to flee to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." (Jonah 3:8-4:2)

Another Old Testament prophet, Ezekiel, wrote, “Say unto them, ‘As I live, said the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live,’” (33:11) and, "If a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life."

But hey, you pick out the one scripture in a long list you think you can argue about and sweep the rest aside. Well played.

Don't get angry. I'm merely presenting you with the other side of the story.

Where do you draw the line on wicked...what is too wicked, and what is good enough?

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 12:05 AM
Yes, of course, Christians must remain good or be disqualified,

I agree.



but that says nothing about non-Christians who are not wicked and thus are not in need of repenting, like the Gentiles Paul writes about in Rom. 2:26.

All have to repent of sins. There is no one so righteous that has never sinned. There are righteous people, but none who have never sinned.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:12 AM
Rom 15:8* Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:*

Mat 15:24* But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*

Yes I know and his disciples took his message to the nations - because it applied to them as well.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 12:13 AM
Well I know and you said you're not a brother, as in, you're not a spiritual brother by new birth so that left only one option that I could think of.

You have proved on numerous occasions that you lack the capacity to think. It must be your role in life to spread ignorance.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:15 AM
I agree.



All have to repent of sins. There is no one righteous that has never sinned. There are righteous people, but none who have never sinned.

I don't dispute that but I would dispute that all sins make a man condemned before God. The bible never says that. We repent of all of our sins in order to become more like Christ. Before that, we repent of our wickedness, if we are wicked, to become acceptable to God. It's really quite simple if we just take those scriptures at face value I posted in #14.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:16 AM
You have proved on numerous occasions that you lack the capacity to think. It must be your role in life to spread ignorance.

Remind me again why am I even having a conversation with you?

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:22 AM
Don't get angry. I'm merely presenting you with the other side of the story.

Where do you draw the line on wicked...what is too wicked, and what is good enough?

Ahh the inevitable question. This is why the Catholics distinguish between venial and mortal sins. This is why Muslims have an army of Sharia scholars to legislate everyone's every move. This is why the Pharisees couldn't just leave it at "Don't work on the Sabbath" but had to define "work" to mean carrying the weight of a wet fig while carrying the weight of a dry fig was allowed. My answer? If God is convicting you of wickedness you better get right with God. I'm not going to do the job of the Holy Spirit.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 12:23 AM
I don't dispute that but I would dispute that all sins make a man condemned before God.
The Bible says that all are condemned until they come to Jesus.



The bible never says that. We repent of all of our sins in order to become more like Christ. Before that, we repent of our wickedness, if we are wicked, to become acceptable to God. It's really quite simple if we just take those scriptures at face value I posted in #14.

All have sinned and fall short. All must repent of their sins, no matter how slight.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:27 AM
Even Gentiles have the law written in their conscience...they know when they do wrong (and fall short of the glory of God).


Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness,

Yes they do and if you'll read a little slower you'll notice they were counted as circumcised, meaning, they were acceptable to God, and they would judge the circumcised who did wickedness and were thus not acceptable to God.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 12:29 AM
The Bible says that all are condemned until they come to Jesus.



All have sinned and fall short. All must repent of their sins, no matter how slight.

"All have fallen short of the glory of God" does not equal "all stand condemned before God"

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 12:33 AM
"All have fallen short of the glory of God" does not equal "all stand condemned before God"

John 3:1 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 12:35 AM
"All have fallen short of the glory of God" does not equal "all stand condemned before God"

By the way, you are mixing up two different things that I was talking about.

marhig
August 29th, 2017, 01:56 AM
I have come to the conclusion that all that is needed for salvation is repentance from wickedness - if a person is wicked. Most are not.

Faith in Jesus was added to the equation to bring people to repentance by demonstrating God's love and providing a graphic visual to the effect that if one repents he will be forgiven, and then to provide power to overcome sin, whether those sins are wickedness which leads to damnation or other sins that so easily beset us.

Salvation in the scriptures is "restoration to wholeness" and a person that is whole (not wicked) will enter eternal life. All sin causes spiritual death in the hear and now to some degree and so all sin causes lack of wholeness to some degree so all people need salvation to some degree, if we understand what the Greek word sozo means.

We don't "earn" salvation by doing good works, but a good person does not need to receive eternal life because he already has it.

This is the verse that has rocked my Evangelical boat:

Lk. 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."I agree with much of what you have said, but I don't agree that most aren't wicked, we are in sinful flesh, and as we have grown, we have let sin in and grow. We all have good and bad, but without God we are all under the influence of satan, loving the flesh and this world of sin but most don't realise and they don't know it, and God forgives ignorance, that's why Jesus wants the gospel preached to all. And by being in darkness most tend to put themselves first, as I did before I knew God. We need God through Christ to take us out of the chains of darkness and bring us into his glorious light.

I agree with what you have said about the verses you've quoted, because to do what those verses say, is to live by the will of God, and Jesus said that those who enter the kingdom of heaven, are those who live by the will of the Father, not those of a certain denomination, all those who truly live by the will of God are the body of Christ. But they must believe in Jesus, because he came from God and bore witness to the truth. So anyone truly loving God and living by his will, will know that Jesus is from God and speaks the truth, those who deny him don't truly know God.

John 8

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

But only God knows the heart of anyone, and we can't judge after the seeing of our eyes and the hearing of our ears, but through Christ by the word of God, by baring witness to the truth not by our flesh, and leave the judging of the heart of others to God.
And Jesus came and showed us the way, he's our perfect example and he showed us how to live before God and how love God with all our heart, our mind, our soul and our strength, and how to love our neighbour as ourselves, he is the way the truth and the life. And no-one comes to the father except through him. So we can't say that we love God and not believe in Jesus, because if we truly love God, then we will know that Jesus speaks the truth.

Nick M
August 29th, 2017, 06:46 AM
So what are you going to do with the Sermon on the Mount

I'm not doing anything about it. I deserve to go to hell, but justice has already been served. Krsto = clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why.

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 07:55 AM
I agree that people can't earn their own salvation without Christ. Works and belief go hand-in-hand. We accept Christ and then we act in accordance with his teachings. We must do BOTH.


Good point. Let's make a list of of the works of the man who died beside Jesus.

Was the man crucified for his works?

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 08:22 AM
Good point. Let's make a list of of the works of the man who died beside Jesus.

Was the man crucified for his works?

That man obeyed what Jesus teaches. He feared God. He believed in Jesus. He humbled himself. The thief admitted his sins, this is confession; he also admitted he deserved his punishment, that is regret and repentance for his sin. He a acknowledged Jesus before others. He called on Jesus.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 08:54 AM
John 3:1 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Context my friend, context.

Vs. 20 provides your context for Rom. 11:32. The "everyone" there are the Israelites who didn't believe.

The context for Jn. 3 is a crowd of people who saw with their own eyes Jesus' good works, heard his good teachings, and still accused him of being a demon. THEY would be condemned for not believing, because Jesus also said, "To whom much is given, much is required." Lk. 12:48 People living 2000 years later hearing about this story from some moron who probably doesn't have it right to begin with are not under the same obligation as people standing right there who accused a sinless man of being the worst of humans. If you want to rip these verses out of context so you can use them as proof texts that's your prerogative but I believe God is more merciful than that.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 09:07 AM
delete

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 09:08 AM
I'm not doing anything about it. I deserve to go to hell, but justice has already been served. Krsto = clueless as to what happened 2000 years ago and why.

And naturally you're going to sweep all those scriptures aside to hang on to your particular human tradition.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 09:11 AM
Good point. Let's make a list of of the works of the man who died beside Jesus.

Was the man crucified for his works?

Repentance = metanoia = a change in mind, followed by a change in actions.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 09:13 AM
I agree with much of what you have said, but I don't agree that most aren't wicked, we are in sinful flesh,

And yet mothers naturally give of themselves, sacrificing their own well-being, for the sake of their children. They don't do any harm to others. The only mothers I've met who live a life contrary to "love your neighbor" are the ones on crack who can't even take care of themselves much less their own kids. I'm not going to equate the sin we all do with wickedness. Wicked people are the ones who live life so selfishly that they harm others around them for their own gain. In a civil society we have laws to prevent them from being successful. I believe law-abiding citizens are not wicked. Wicked people usually spend a lot of time in jail. Or they run for office LOL!

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 09:26 AM
Context my friend, context.

Vs. 20 provides your context for Rom. 11:32. The "everyone" there are the Israelites who didn't believe.

The context for Jn. 3 is a crowd of people who saw with their own eyes Jesus' good works, heard his good teachings, and still accused him of being a demon. THEY would be condemned for not believing, because Jesus also said, "To whom much is given, much is required." Lk. 12:48 People living 2000 years later hearing about this story from some moron who probably doesn't have it right to begin with are not under the same obligation as people standing right there who accused a sinless man of being the worst of humans. If you want to rip these verses out of context so you can use them as proof texts that's your prerogative but I believe God is more merciful than that.

I am not doing what you accuse me of. You need to stop saying things like rip out of context.

How do you ever get to say that about God's word?

God bound all over to disobedience so He can have mercy on all. How do you get they do not have to submit to Jesus to be saved?

Whether one searches for Jesus and gets saved, or whether one never heard of Jesus and then appears before him after their death must submit to be saved.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 09:39 AM
And yet mothers naturally give of themselves, sacrificing their own well-being, for the sake of their children. They don't do any harm to others. The only mothers I've met who live a life contrary to "love your neighbor" are the ones on crack who can't even take care of themselves much less their own kids. I'm not going to equate the sin we all do with wickedness. Wicked people are the ones who live life so selfishly that they harm others around them for their own gain. In a civil society we have laws to prevent them from being successful. I believe law-abiding citizens are not wicked. Wicked people usually spend a lot of time in jail. Or they run for office LOL!

Those who do not obey and know God cannot but help to do things against Him; even slightly so.

The Bible says obeying God makes our love pure and sincere.

An unbeliever might love their own, and do good to others, but their love is not perfected unless they obey the teachings of Jesus.

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 12:00 PM
Repentance = metanoia = a change in mind, followed by a change in actions.


Jesus sensed the man's change of heart.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 12:04 PM
Jesus sensed the man's change of heart.

The Messiah doesn't sense the change He is the cause of the change.

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 12:07 PM
The Messiah doesn't sense the change He is the cause of the change.


Yes, he is for those who are willing.

Jesus doesn't force himself on anyone.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 12:15 PM
Yes, he is for those who are willing.

Jesus doesn't force himself on anyone.

He dragged me in and if He hadn't I wouldn't have come.

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 12:25 PM
He dragged me in and if He hadn't I wouldn't have come.


Who is "he"?

It's not Christ.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 01:21 PM
Who is "he"?

It's not Christ.

Of course it was The Messiah.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

All done without warning or permission.

And I repeat. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was and am saved.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 01:39 PM
Of course it was The Messiah.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

All done without warning or permission.

And I repeat. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was and am saved.

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?


Did you read that?

They had to repent of their sins first.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 01:44 PM
The Messiah doesn't sense the change He is the cause of the change.

Are you kidding?

God SEARCHES hearts to find out who is thinking of Him.

John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

Jeremiah 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve."

Acts 1:24
Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen

1 Chronicles 28:9
"And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

Isaiah 57:11
"Of whom were you worried and fearful When you lied, and did not remember Me Nor give Me a thought? Was I not silent even for a long time So you do not fear Me?

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:03 PM
Of course it was The Messiah.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

All done without warning or permission.

And I repeat. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was and am saved.

Another translation expands:


And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

A stubborn and unresponsive heart needs to be removed and that stubborn heart is not volunteering.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 02:06 PM
I am not doing what you accuse me of. You need to stop saying things like rip out of context.

How do you ever get to say that about God's word?

God bound all over to disobedience so He can have mercy on all. How do you get they do not have to submit to Jesus to be saved?

Whether one searches for Jesus and gets saved, or whether one never heard of Jesus and then appears before him after their death must submit to be saved.

GT, if you don't understand that every statement in any ancient text, no matter whether God or man is the author, is said within some sort of context and can't be ripped out of that context and just quoted on its own then we are not going to be able to have any meaningful discussion about this, but I'll give it another shot.

"Whoever does not believe stands condemned already" (Jn. 3) does not apply to anyone other than the ones he was talking to. You can not apply that today to someone who does not believe in Christ and condemn them. You. Just. Can't. He wasn't talking about non-believers 2000 years later.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 02:08 PM
Of course it was The Messiah.

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

All done without warning or permission.

And I repeat. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was and am saved.

And you have the temerity to think that's how it works for every other human being and that's how you interpret the scriptures. Got news for ya, you're not the center of the universe and the planets don't revolve around you.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 02:10 PM
Another translation expands:


And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

A stubborn and unresponsive heart needs to be removed and that stubborn heart is not volunteering.

If they are not willing to repent, then they will die.

Ezekiel 1:31 Why will you die, people of Israel?

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 02:11 PM
GT, if you don't understand that every statement in any ancient text, no matter whether God or man is the author, is said within some sort of context and can't be ripped out of that context and just quoted on its own then we are not going to be able to have any meaningful discussion about this, but I'll give it another shot.

"Whoever does not believe stands condemned already" (Jn. 3) does not apply to anyone other than the ones he was talking to. You can not apply that today to someone who does not believe in Christ and condemn them. You. Just. Can't. He wasn't talking about non-believers 2000 years later.

God bound all over to disobedience.

All are condemned until they come to God through Jesus.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 02:11 PM
Another translation expands:


And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart.

A stubborn and unresponsive heart needs to be removed and that stubborn heart is not volunteering.

Except that's the whole point of the cross - to give a graphic and powerful demonstration of God's love, so stubborn hearts would submit to God and ask for his divine blessing in their stony hearts. You do realize the cross preceded the New Covenant as described in Jer. 31:31, no?

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:12 PM
And you have the temerity to think that's how it works for every other human being and that's how you interpret the scriptures. Got news for ya, you're not the center of the universe and the planets don't revolve around you.

The principle parts that make up salvation are unchangeable and unless experienced then salvation has most certainly not taken place.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:17 PM
PS

There can be no salvation without justification.

There is no salvation without conversion and simultaneous regeneration.

Regeneration and conversion cannot be said to have taken place if repentance and trust are evident immediately.

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 02:19 PM
Of course it was The Messiah.


No one comes to Christ except through the Father.

As the holy Spirit, Christ influences us but does not force us.

A husband leads his wife, but doesn't dominate her. That's not healthy.

If it's not reciprocal then it's not love.

God loves us, but does not abuse our volition.

"For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children — but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians 4:24-26)

Free at last.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:20 PM
PPS

The regenerate sinner then experiences joy unspeakable and filled with glory. Amen.

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 02:20 PM
PS

There can be no salvation without justification.

There is no salvation without conversion and simultaneous regeneration.

Regeneration and conversion cannot be said to have taken place if repentance and trust are evident immediately.

Jesus saves/justifies/sanctifies those who believe and obey him by repenting of their sins.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:23 PM
No one comes to Christ except through the Father.

As the holy Spirit, Christ influences us but does not force us.

A husband leads his wife, but doesn't dominate her. That's not healthy.

If it's not reciprocal then it's not love.

God loves us, but does not abuse our volition.

"For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar — for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children — but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Galatians
4:24-26)

Free at last.

"I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”

God's Truth
August 29th, 2017, 02:24 PM
"I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.”

Notice that you defend your false beliefs with insults and false accusations.

Do you really think that is a heart right with God?

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:25 PM
Except that's the whole point of the cross - to give a graphic and powerful demonstration of God's love, so stubborn hearts would submit to God and ask for his divine blessing in their stony hearts. You do realize the cross preceded the New Covenant as described in Jer. 31:31, no?

You are so filled with twisted doctrine it makes me wonder where it all comes from.....

jamie
August 29th, 2017, 02:28 PM
The regenerate sinner then experiences joy unspeakable and filled with glory. Amen.


The unregenerate sinner experiences the same thing just by taking another puff.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:35 PM
The unregenerate sinner experiences the same thing just by taking another puff.

You are irreverent and a blasphemer. You have never experienced the joy of Yah Veh or you would make such a stupid remark.

There is nothing more for me to do than put you on ignore as your remarks disgust me.

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 02:38 PM
This message is hidden because jamie is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because God's Truth is on your ignore list.


Bliss....

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 03:45 PM
You are so filled with twisted doctrine it makes me wonder where it all comes from.....

You wonder where it comes from because you ignore all of the scriptures I post.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 03:47 PM
This message is hidden because jamie is on your ignore list.
This message is hidden because God's Truth is on your ignore list.


Bliss....

So how's life in Carmarthenshire? Looks like a lovely place. I've been through north and central Wales but don't think I've been down your way.

Krsto
August 29th, 2017, 03:49 PM
Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?


Did you read that?

They had to repent of their sins first.

I'm finding more stuff in Ezekiel that is just priceless :)

Truster
August 29th, 2017, 04:38 PM
So how's life in Carmarthenshire? Looks like a lovely place. I've been through north and central Wales but don't think I've been down your way.

Carmarthenshire has a great climate. When the Romans first came to Wales they thought our climate was fantastic. Damp and lush, damp and lush. Julius Caesar wrote of us that we were a ferocious people that lived on a diet of milk and meat. We also painted our faces blue.
Were you on holiday in Wales?

patrick jane
August 29th, 2017, 05:02 PM
So how's life in Carmarthenshire? Looks like a lovely place. I've been through north and central Wales but don't think I've been down your way.Truster is the mayor and resident Preacher. He has a congregation of one.

Nick M
August 29th, 2017, 05:07 PM
And naturally you're going to sweep all those scriptures aside to hang on to your particular human tradition.

Tradition says good people go to heaven. I say they don't. Try again.

glorydaz
August 29th, 2017, 05:55 PM
Yes they do and if you'll read a little slower you'll notice they were counted as circumcised, meaning, they were acceptable to God, and they would judge the circumcised who did wickedness and were thus not acceptable to God.

Must have been reading too slow, then. Right back to the idea of justification. And how do you explain this?


Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Epoisses
August 29th, 2017, 06:38 PM
Carmarthenshire has a great climate. When the Romans first came to Wales they thought our climate was fantastic. Damp and lush, damp and lush. Julius Caesar wrote of us that we were a ferocious people that lived on a diet of milk and meat. We also painted our faces blue.
Were you on holiday in Wales?

Truster is a savage!

Epoisses
August 29th, 2017, 06:39 PM
Must have been reading too slow, then. Right back to the idea of justification. And how do you explain this?


Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There's no contradiction my dear, just like Paul and James preach the same gospel from two different vantage points not two different gospels!

glorydaz
August 29th, 2017, 07:24 PM
There's no contradiction my dear, just like Paul and James preach the same gospel from two different vantage points not two different gospels!

This is Paul preaching one chapter apart. I was asking Krsto how he explains these two verses.

My opinion is that he is missing what Paul is saying. This is not a "two gospel" thing or a James and Paul thing. It's a misreading of what Paul is saying.

patrick jane
August 29th, 2017, 09:51 PM
There's no contradiction my dear, just like Paul and James preach the same gospel from two different vantage points not two different gospels!Wrong, schmuck

marhig
August 29th, 2017, 10:59 PM
And yet mothers naturally give of themselves, sacrificing their own well-being, for the sake of their children. They don't do any harm to others. The only mothers I've met who live a life contrary to "love your neighbor" are the ones on crack who can't even take care of themselves much less their own kids. I'm not going to equate the sin we all do with wickedness. Wicked people are the ones who live life so selfishly that they harm others around them for their own gain. In a civil society we have laws to prevent them from being successful. I believe law-abiding citizens are not wicked. Wicked people usually spend a lot of time in jail. Or they run for office LOL!Mothers may well love their own, but it's easy to love your own. Try loving those those hate and persecute you, I think that's virtually impossible without God changing our hearts. We are mostly selfish by nature, we put ourselves and our own first in our lives. But God changes our hearts to love and care for all those around us, whatever they appear like outwardly. as Jamie rightly said, Jesus said why do you call me good, there's none good but God. if Jesus said that, then we are certainly not good by human nature, it's God in us that's good, not us, it takes God to change our hearts. Yes many do good works, but the true works are those that glorify God and not flesh.

As for mothers on crack, we don't know what they've been through in their lives, or what upbringing they have had. And that goes for those in jail too. It's better not to judge them and help them where we can, and bring God to them, some of them will have a better heart than many who profess to know God, and God looks at the heart. I have hope for everyone.

Luke 6

But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them..And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. And if ye lend*to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

marhig
August 29th, 2017, 11:04 PM
So how's life in Carmarthenshire? Looks like a lovely place. I've been through north and central Wales but don't think I've been down your way.I'm up in North Wales :) it's beatififul here isn't it?

Epoisses
August 30th, 2017, 06:24 AM
Wrong, schmuck

Well there might be a contradiction for a Dispy who has a gospel for everyday of the week. You people can play Christian all you want but you're just not.

Krsto
August 30th, 2017, 10:32 AM
Carmarthenshire has a great climate. When the Romans first came to Wales they thought our climate was fantastic. Damp and lush, damp and lush. Julius Caesar wrote of us that we were a ferocious people that lived on a diet of milk and meat. We also painted our faces blue.
Were you on holiday in Wales?

The first time was when I was studying in London and our group took a day trip through Wales.

Last time I was "escorting" one of my boys who is trying to find a way to live in GB. I was escorting him because he gets lost in his own small town LOL so was kind of showing him the ropes about traveling overseas. We just went to Conway and Betys-y-Coed on the way to Anwick where he worked at a lodge for a few weeks.

Beautiful country. Quite a lot like my very wet and green hometown of Shelton, Washington. Nice to get out of the desert we're stuck in here in central Washington state.

Krsto
August 30th, 2017, 10:36 AM
I'm up in North Wales :) it's beatififul here isn't it?

Certainly is! Got to do some hiking in Snowdonia next time :)

marhig
August 30th, 2017, 11:02 AM
Certainly is! Got to do some hiking in Snowdonia next time :)I live not far from there and we go up by the lakes often, Conwy and Betws y Coed are beautiful too, I'm blessed living in such a beautiful area :)

Krsto
August 30th, 2017, 02:31 PM
Must have been reading too slow, then. Right back to the idea of justification. And how do you explain this?


Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Good question! Will get back to it. Thanks!

Krsto
August 30th, 2017, 02:34 PM
I live not far from there and we go up by the lakes often, Conwy and Betws y Coed are beautiful too, I'm blessed living in such a beautiful area :)

Just wondering, are the Welsh ever going to adopt English as their official language LOL!

marhig
August 30th, 2017, 02:51 PM
Just wondering, are the Welsh ever going to adopt English as their official language LOL!Ha ha, we are half and half where I live :)

glorydaz
August 30th, 2017, 04:24 PM
Well there might be a contradiction for a Dispy who has a gospel for everyday of the week. You people can play Christian all you want but you're just not.

I wish you'd try to actually read what is written instead of just enough to make a smart alecky comment. He was speaking of your comparison being wrong.

Epoisses
August 30th, 2017, 06:25 PM
I wish you'd try to actually read what is written instead of just enough to make a smart alecky comment. He was speaking of your comparison being wrong.

There was no contradiction. Doers of the law fulfill it by love and the deeds or works of the law are merit based. Two completely different types of works - one acceptable and one unacceptable.

glorydaz
August 30th, 2017, 10:21 PM
There was no contradiction. Doers of the law fulfill it by love and the deeds or works of the law are merit based. Two completely different types of works - one acceptable and one unacceptable.

Nope....the "doers of the law" must keep the law PERFECTLY. If you want to know about the law, read James.


James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Those who sin without the law still perish the same as those who sin in the law. BECAUSE you will not find a perfect DOER of the law except the ONE Lord Jesus Christ. The law of God written in all men's conscience stands ready to accuse them. That first time one chooses evil over good, he sins. No amount of good deeds performed by man will cover that sin. Except that ONE MAN...our Lord who was obedient unto death.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In the same way, you can't "inherit eternal life"....it can only be received as a GIFT by Grace through faith. Romans 6:23

Epoisses
August 31st, 2017, 06:23 AM
Nope....the "doers of the law" must keep the law PERFECTLY. If you want to know about the law, read James.


James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.


Those who sin without the law still perish the same as those who sin in the law. BECAUSE you will not find a perfect DOER of the law except the ONE Lord Jesus Christ. The law of God written in all men's conscience stands ready to accuse them. That first time one chooses evil over good, he sins. No amount of good deeds performed by man will cover that sin. Except that ONE MAN...our Lord who was obedient unto death.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In the same way, you can't "inherit eternal life"....it can only be received as a GIFT by Grace through faith. Romans 6:23

A doer of the law is not the Pharisee who meticulously keeps every commandment. That's the second group who is never justified by the works of the law. Under the old covenant the law was written in stone and had to be physically performed. Under the new covenant the law is written in the heart and obedience is automatic.

glorydaz
August 31st, 2017, 04:57 PM
A doer of the law is not the Pharisee who meticulously keeps every commandment. That's the second group who is never justified by the works of the law. Under the old covenant the law was written in stone and had to be physically performed. Under the new covenant the law is written in the heart and obedience is automatic.

What do you mean it's "automatic"?

patrick jane
August 31st, 2017, 07:55 PM
What do you mean it's "automatic"?I think he must mean he doesn't worry about obedience, it takes care of itself? Which contradicts what he says

glorydaz
August 31st, 2017, 11:54 PM
I think he must mean he doesn't worry about obedience, it takes care of itself? Which contradicts what he says

Whichever....he can't explain how the "doer of the law is justified" without changing his tune about what Paul meant there in that text.

Krsto
September 1st, 2017, 07:48 PM
Must have been reading too slow, then. Right back to the idea of justification. And how do you explain this?


Romans 2:12-13 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Whenever the word "law" is used we must ask ourselves, "What kind of law are we talking about here?"

Paul doesn't use the same word the same way, even in the same chapter. Here's a good example:

“Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having he law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.” – 1 Corinthians 9:19-23

So, 3:20 would be the uniquely Jewish laws and 2:13 the universal moral law.